View Full Version : Should I G19 --> M&P ?
1911's fit my hand better than anything else, but as a primary carry they are too heavy, bulky, powerful (assuming .45) and low-capacity (assuming single-stack). Hence, I have tried various others that are lighter, more compact, easier to shoot, and higher capacity.
A G19 has served in this role for the past year+. I could probably carry a G17 nearly as easily (need some kind of outer garment to cover either) but the G19 just fits my hand better -- not perfect by any means, but manageable considering its other positive qualities.
When I got the G19, I almost got the full-size 9mm S&W M&P instead but didn't because:
(1) I was already familiar with Glocks in general, and the 19 in particular among others (M&P's were then only recently out and not yet well known),
(2) I was unsure what effect the somewhat larger size of the M&P would have on daily carry, and
(3) at that time, there was no compact version of the M&P, but which I heard was pending and thought would make a better direct comparison to the G19.
Well, of course the compact M&P has since come out, but I don't think it fits my hand as well as the full size -- the heel seems too high. Just from handling in the store, the full-size seems to feel better than the G19 and just about anything else other than a 1911 and possibly the CZ 75B (both way too heavy to consider for carry). The M&P line in general has also since gained some good reputation.
Soooo......I'm thinking of trying the full-size 9mm M&P after all. I don't need to sell or trade the G19 to get an M&P, but I don't want to waste the outlay either unless I think there is good potential to ultimately become the replacement.
We've now all heard a lot of good about the M&P, including plenty of cases like what I'm considering (replacing a G19). I'd like to know as specifically as possble what people like about M&P's, and especially from anyone who replaced their G19 with one.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.;)
Business_Casual
10-22-07, 10:09
My impression is the M&P is more accurate (mechanically) than the average Glock. In my experience, the magazine on the M&P leaves the weapon with a positive motion, versus the Glock which can sometimes be a bit sticky. The M&P comes with pretty good sights when compared to the stock plastic crap on the Glock.
M_P
Robb Jensen
10-22-07, 10:14
I like the M&P9 (fullsize) for competition.
For carry I prefer the G19 (I have both a G19 and a M&P9c for carry).
NCPatrolAR
10-22-07, 10:36
I use to carry and shoot Glocks all the time. Now, I carry nothing but M&Ps.
Been down the G19 road for many years. The M&P is superior in many ways IMHO.
C4
1911's fit my hand better than anything else, but as a primary carry they are too heavy, bulky, powerful (assuming .45)................
I am always very suspicious when I hear someone say that a 1911 is too bulky and/or heavy to carry. Unless one has some serious medical issues (which I dont rule out mind you) a 1911 is not "too heavy". They definitely arent bulky.
That said..... I made the switch from Glocks (17, 19, 21) to M&P's. I love Glocks, and they are fine weapons. I just found that I shot M&P's better, easier. The M&P is also a much better fit on average I am finding for 1911 shooters (which I used to be, still love them), especially in the grip size, grip angle, etc. I am very happy with my M&P's.
I am always very suspicious when I hear someone say that a 1911 is too bulky and/or heavy to carry.
Definitely not too bulky. I had to get used to the bulk of the Glock after carrying the comparatively much slimmer a 1911 for years.
And although not TOO heavy, the extra weight of the 1911 is quite noticeable.
Well thanks guys. I didn't intend for this to be a 1911 critique. I opened with that topic just to illustrate the disparity for me between its shootability and carriability, which is my main idea in considering the M&P.
Which from your comments sounds like would be worth pursuing. I'll post a follow-up thread separately if anything pans out.
I've said it time and time again; I love my M&P so far but I'm not ready for it to replace my G19. If I had to pick one and only one I would still choose the G19 over the M&P.
That said, I shoot my M&P almost exclusively...when I find the time to shoot. The ergonomics are awesome, recoil is soft and the trigger can be tuned to suit most users needs. As someone else already mentioned the stock sights are superior and more and more companies are making aftermarket sights for the M&P.
One of the big negatives has been the lack of parts and accessories but that is getting better. If we could get a steady supply of magazines that weren't over $30 I'd be very happy.
In a nutshell I think you should definitely try and M&P but I'm not sure I'd be willing to give up a G19 in the process.
Are the M&Ps priced competetively to the Glocks?
Are the M&Ps priced competetively to the Glocks?
That depends on where you get it---
If you look at the LE program, the Glock is 396-398 with 3 mags, no night sights. The M&P(no night sights) is slightly over 400 with a coupon for another mag, so it equals out give or take a buck or two.
I'm, sending off for the full size M&P tomorrow to see what this fuss is about:)
Are the M&Ps priced competetively to the Glocks?
Suggested retail is higher than Glocks but its much easier to find a great deal on an M&P than it is on a Glock. Buds usually has M&Ps from $439 and up depending on whether or not it has the magazine safety & Internal lock.
Around here you can usually find the M&P for $20 cheaper than a comparable Glock.
Are the M&Ps priced competetively to the Glocks?
They are generally cheaper.
C4
If I had to pick one and only one I would still choose the G19 over the M&P.
.............................
That said, I shoot my M&P almost exclusively..............
........... but I'm not sure I'd be willing to give up a G19 in the process.
Uh huh. Fibber.
Come on now Hawkeye...cut me some slack :p
When a gun is "too heavy" to carry, that tells me the person needs a better belt and holster. Or maybe an aluminum alloy frame on their 1911. But that's beside the point.
My pick is the M&P just because I can reach the trigger without moving my grip so much that the gun is recoiling against my thumb (like I have to do with Glocks, even with grip reductions). I don't own one (yet), but I have started collecting magazines because it's going to happen some day.
But I carry 1911s and Paras. :D
My pick is the M&P just because I can reach the trigger without moving my grip so much that the gun is recoiling against my thumb (like I have to do with Glocks, even with grip reductions).
Ah rhino you make an excellent point and one I always forget to mention!
I find that I do not have to readjust my grip with the M&P. I didn't realize I did this with my Glocks until I started shooting the M&P. It's strange (maybe it isn't) but a good grip on the M&P means just that and as such I'm more consistent with my M&P than I am my G19.
Another excellent choice would be the Springer XD series, they are very ergonomic and a well proven system, reliable, accurate and in the same price range. I usually carry a full sized 1911 but with my size I could probably pull off a Desert Eagle the XD's just feel right in my hands, especially the .45 go figgure.:D
......depending on whether or not it has the magazine safety & Internal lock......
UURRGGHH ??? !!!
(I just caught this.)
So you can get them without these to-me bogus "features"?
Are they generally as available without as with?
Do they cost more or less without?
Robb Jensen
10-29-07, 10:52
UURRGGHH ??? !!!
(I just caught this.)
So you can get them without these to-me bogus "features"?
Are they generally as available without as with?
Do they cost more or less without?
Whichever version you get it's easy to make it the other.
Whichever version you get it's easy to make it the other.
Just a matter of removing parts, or something?
I may go take another look at them after work today. Shall barrage salesperson with pesky questions....:p
Robb Jensen
10-29-07, 12:12
Just a matter of removing parts, or something?
I may go take another look at them after work today. Shall barrage salesperson with pesky questions....:p
It's just a different sear block to change the version. One can disable a mag disconnect easily without needing a new block too.
Linea_de_Fuego
10-29-07, 13:06
Suggested retail is higher than Glocks but its much easier to find a great deal on an M&P than it is on a Glock. Buds usually has M&Ps from $439 and up depending on whether or not it has the magazine safety & Internal lock.
Around here you can usually find the M&P for $20 cheaper than a comparable Glock.
The magazine safety for competition would be a major PIA but no problem for carry. That is unless the mag falls out unintentionally which is a problem discussed on the mp-pistol site. This problem dosen't seem to affect everyone, but it is something that needs to be fully solved for carry.
Well, it sounds like M&P win this match. What is the favorite caliber you guys are buying the M&P in?
I've said it time and time again; I love my M&P so far but I'm not ready for it to replace my G19. If I had to pick one and only one I would still choose the G19 over the M&P.
That said, I shoot my M&P almost exclusively...when I find the time to shoot. The ergonomics are awesome, recoil is soft and the trigger can be tuned to suit most users needs. As someone else already mentioned the stock sights are superior and more and more companies are making aftermarket sights for the M&P.
One of the big negatives has been the lack of parts and accessories but that is getting better. If we could get a steady supply of magazines that weren't over $30 I'd be very happy.
In a nutshell I think you should definitely try and M&P but I'm not sure I'd be willing to give up a G19 in the process.
What he said.
GLOCK! When the M&P builds a reputation like Glock in regards to reliability, then I would think about trusting one as a carry gun. Until then, it's Glock.
GLOCK! When the M&P builds a reputation like Glock in regards to reliability, then I would think about trusting one as a carry gun. Until then, it's Glock.
Uh, the reputation is already there, and Glock does not equal 100% reliability. I have seen all kind of things go wrong with them (including lots of malfunctions).
C4
Uh, the reputation is already there, and Glock does not equal 100% reliability. I have see all kind of things go wrong with them (including lots of malfunctions).
C4
Be careful where you say that. Some guys think they are the Glock Pope, granting absolution to your malfunctioning Glock, because theirs...."runs great".
Bob
Be careful where you say that. Some guys think they are the Glock Pope, granting absolution to your malfunctioning Glock, because theirs...."runs great".
Bob
LOL, I have no fear. I have owned Glock since the Gen 1 days and have been carrying them as a CCW weapon since 95. No one can tell me they are perfect and without issues. I also had a nice long talk with an ex-Glock employee. I have all the dirt. ;)
I have also been through Glock and M&P armorers schools. Once you do this, there shouldn't be any question which weapon is better.
C4
I will be the odd man out and say that I unequivicably prefer a Glock to the S&WM&P. I have fired the M&P a fiar amount in both 9mm and 45 and both had horrible triggers when compared to a Glock. This made them harder to shoot well. I would never consider swapping a Glock for an M&P. You would have to drop money on a trigger job and shipping to and from a gunsmith who does them to make the M&P comparable to the Glock in my oppinion.
Linea_de_Fuego
10-30-07, 15:01
Grant, I appreciate your expertise. You know more about these platforms than I do. So what's up with the issues with the dropped mags?
IMHO There are no magic handguns,HK,GLOCK, MP,SIG,XD,ect, ALL will work for what they are designd to do and ALL will break/ wear out with use.I say buy one of these brands that fits YOU best,take care of it, keep it lubed, replace parts as needed.And go out and shoot,shoot, shoot.:)
I will be the odd man out and say that I unequivicably prefer a Glock to the S&WM&P. I have fired the M&P a fiar amount in both 9mm and 45 and both had horrible triggers when compared to a Glock. This made them harder to shoot well. I would never consider swapping a Glock for an M&P. You would have to drop money on a trigger job and shipping to and from a gunsmith who does them to make the M&P comparable to the Glock in my oppinion.
Were the M&Ps new? How many rounds through the Glocks? Its not accurate to compare a brand new trigger to one with a number of rounds on it. As for HAVING to drop the money on a trigger just for an M&P, no, you dont HAVE to. I have held off doing it and found that my M&P triggers are becoming far nicer than my Glock triggers were at the same round count. The more rounds that go through them, the better the triggers become.
I still love Glocks and would use one without hesitation, but if I have a choice between a Glock or a M&P, I'm taking the M&P. I do not regret making the switch from Glocks at all.
I'm going through a M&Pc 9mm vs. G19 dilemma right now. I'm normally a "Sig guy" and use a P226R for work but need a lightweight off-duty carry gun. I have a P225 but I haven't had an interest in carrying that for a while. So, I've been carrying my J-frame S&W 940 which is as heavy as the smaller polymer guns that have a lot higher round capacity.
I went down to the gun shop this afternoon and held both. The M&Pc w/ the finger extension is the same size (M&P is a little wider) as the G19. The G19's grip felt better to me because I can get my whole hand on it. The gun shop wouldn't let me change the grip swells on the M&P to see if that helped. Some people are experiencing problems with the M&Pc and with the little trigger time that I have with the G19, I know that they work.
Now, to make the make the decision even harder.... I can get the M&P w/ Novak N/S and 3 mags for $478. The G19 w/ Trijicons and 3 mags is the same price. Hmmm....
I would try another shop that will allow you to change out the grips to see which one fits your hand better. If you happen to know anyone that has one or both to let you shoot it. Quality wise, I would say you're splitting hairs.
I would think they could accomodate you with the grips if you are serious about it. I would find another shop myself.
Mark
My M&P 9c is smaller than a Glock 19. The fullsize M&P 9 is much closer to a 19, being only slightly larger than a 19 and slightly smaller than a 17. The 9c and the 19 are in two different categories to me.
I have also been through Glock and M&P armorers schools. Once you do this, there shouldn't be any question which weapon is better.
C4
Can you elaborate?
I will always prefer a Glock over an M&P, for me there is more things going wrong with an M&P than a glock.
if you are looking for a 9mm in that size the G19 is the best polimer hand gun out right now, people just dont like the glock grip angle, if your hand size is the issue(the glock grip being to thick) than i will say the M&P has better grip ergonomics.
I also preffer the Glock trigger better than the M&P trigger, for me it is too mushy.
JMHO
My M&P 9c is smaller than a Glock 19. The fullsize M&P 9 is much closer to a 19, being only slightly larger than a 19 and slightly smaller than a 17. The 9c and the 19 are in two different categories to me.
They are pretty close in specs.....
Glock 19
Weight- 20.9
Length- 6.85"
Height- 5.0"
Width- 1.1"
S&W M&Pc
Weight- 21.7
Length- 6.7"
Height- 4.3" (without finger extension)
Width- 1.2"
Uh, the reputation is already there, and Glock does not equal 100% reliability. I have seen all kind of things go wrong with them (including lots of malfunctions).
C4 What has gone wrong with the glock's that you have seen?What was the round count on these pistols?? what ammo was used?what were the condition of the magazines(springs/ect, ect)Also how was the maintence on these pistols?Not saying your not telling the truth, and im not trying to come off as an a$$ just want more info.ANYTHING mechanical made buy man will never be 100% reliable ALL the time.
Were the M&Ps new? How many rounds through the Glocks? Its not accurate to compare a brand new trigger to one with a number of rounds on it.
I have fired new Glocks that have a much nicer trigger than an M&P with 1000+ rounds through it. In my experience the two are not close. As I said: for me bad trigger=bad hits. I recently rented an M&P45 at a range that was a rental gun and compared it to my H&K USP40 fired from cocked and locked. Accuracy was much better with the USP40. I also fired a friend's M&P 9mm against falling plates. I did much better using his Colt 1911 that had the typical teeny sights that some 1911s come with.
What has gone wrong with the glock's that you have seen?What was the round count on these pistols?? what ammo was used?what were the condition of the magazines(springs/ect, ect)Also how was the maintence on these pistols?Not saying your not telling the truth, and im not trying to come off as an a$$ just want more info.ANYTHING mechanical made buy man will never be 100% reliable ALL the time.
You may not be trying, but jeez, why do these Glock discussions always go this way. They are not perfect.
A friend of mine recently had a problem with his G19, almost sent the slide down range. Everyone wants to know what HE did to it. His reply..."I shot it".
Problems with the 40's and lights are pretty common, BTW.
Ed, we've talked about this, but my M&P40 has a decent trigger, w/o comparing them side by side, at say its at least wqual to my duty G22 w/ the factory trigger, and not much different then my G19 w/ the 3.5 trigger.
The M&P45 trigger was heavy, and has smoothed a bit, but the gun does shoot quite accurately. Vickers didn't think the trigger on mine was bad at all.
There is obviously some individuality to each gun, just like every other gun out there.
Bob
Grant, I appreciate your expertise. You know more about these platforms than I do. So what's up with the issues with the dropped mags?
Was an issue with the mag release spring on the compacts.
C4
You may not be trying, but jeez, why do these Glock discussions always go this way. They are not perfect.
A friend of mine recently had a problem with his G19, almost sent the slide down range. Everyone wants to know what HE did to it. His reply..."I shot it".
Problems with the 40's and lights are pretty common, BTW.
Ed, we've talked about this, but my M&P40 has a decent trigger, w/o comparing them side by side, at say its at least wqual to my duty G22 w/ the factory trigger, and not much different then my G19 w/ the 3.5 trigger.
The M&P45 trigger was heavy, and has smoothed a bit, but the gun does shoot quite accurately. Vickers didn't think the trigger on mine was bad at all.
There is obviously some individuality to each gun, just like every other gun out there.
Bob Its not going any way and i NEVER said anything about GLOCKS being perfect as they are far from it,as i said ANY pistol,rifle,washer,phones,cars(GLOCK, M&P,SIG XD, ect) thing's made by man can and will fail at some time.It just sounds like he has seen ALOT of problums with GLOCKS,but he carried one for what 10+ yrs?. As i said i want info.. just like he would or anyone else.Also please stay in your lane as this was a question for Grant.Thanks.Also GRANT knows his stuff, he has helped me in the past and i respect him and his views on firearms.He has a lot of info, I just want to know what he has seen with Glocks and get some info on it thats all.Isnt it what this site is all about?
What has gone wrong with the glock's that you have seen?What was the round count on these pistols?? what ammo was used?what were the condition of the magazines(springs/ect, ect)Also how was the maintence on these pistols?Not saying your not telling the truth, and im not trying to come off as an a$$ just want more info.ANYTHING mechanical made buy man will never be 100% reliable ALL the time.
The biggest thing I have seen is the weapon does not function well if it is limp wristed. The plastic guide rod is a no go. Drop it and and damage this piece and you are SOL. Cracked frames because there is not a steel roll cage built in. Mags that won't drop free and last but not least if the weapon gets hot enough, the guide rod can be warped and cause malfunctions.
We could also go into the cheap plastic sights that come factory, but we will save those for later. ;)
C4
I have fired new Glocks that have a much nicer trigger than an M&P with 1000+ rounds through it. In my experience the two are not close. As I said: for me bad trigger=bad hits. I recently rented an M&P45 at a range that was a rental gun and compared it to my H&K USP40 fired from cocked and locked. Accuracy was much better with the USP40. I also fired a friend's M&P 9mm against falling plates. I did much better using his Colt 1911 that had the typical teeny sights that some 1911s come with.
I think you are really comparing apples and oranges. Triggers on a USP (in SA) does not compare to a M&P trigger (especially the 45 model which has the worst trigger of the M&P series).
A crappy 1911 trigger is ALWAYS going to be better than a factory M&P trigger.
The thing that people need to understand about the M&P is that the factory trigger is VERY easy to smooth out (read no gunsmith required).
Let's also face the fact that we do not all have the same hand size. The M&P has a much better grip angle than a Glock and allows you to custom fit the weapon to your hand.
If you cannot shoot an M&P well, then all I can say is that it is not the weapons fault.
C4
You may not be trying, but jeez, why do these Glock discussions always go this way. They are not perfect.
A friend of mine recently had a problem with his G19, almost sent the slide down range. Everyone wants to know what HE did to it. His reply..."I shot it".
Problems with the 40's and lights are pretty common, BTW.
Ed, we've talked about this, but my M&P40 has a decent trigger, w/o comparing them side by side, at say its at least wqual to my duty G22 w/ the factory trigger, and not much different then my G19 w/ the 3.5 trigger.
The M&P45 trigger was heavy, and has smoothed a bit, but the gun does shoot quite accurately. Vickers didn't think the trigger on mine was bad at all.
There is obviously some individuality to each gun, just like every other gun out there.
Bob
The Glock is also the leading firearm for AD's because you have to pull the trigger in order to take down the weapon.
C4
The biggest thing I have seen is the weapon does not function well if it is limp wristed. The plastic guide rod is a no go. Drop it and and damage this piece and you are SOL. Cracked frames because there is not a steel roll cage built in. Mags that won't drop free and last but not least if the weapon gets hot enough, the guide rod can be warped and cause malfunctions.
We could also go into the cheap plastic sights that come factory, but we will save those for later. ;)
C4 Thanks for the info.:),And yes the sights DO suck.:D
The Glock is also the leading firearm for AD's because you have to pull the trigger in order to take down the weapon.
C4 Thats a training issue imho, It's the people who dont use the computer between their ears is why that happens.Its not the weapons fault.The pistol does not get up and fire all buy itself.;) :D
Ed, we've talked about this, but my M&P40 has a decent trigger, w/o comparing them side by side, at say its at least wqual to my duty G22 w/ the factory trigger, and not much different then my G19 w/ the 3.5 trigger.
The M&P45 trigger was heavy, and has smoothed a bit, but the gun does shoot quite accurately. Vickers didn't think the trigger on mine was bad at all.
All I can say is that the S&W M&Ps I have shot in both 9mm & 45 have considerably worse triggers than a Glock.
You might be able to shoot as well with the M&P45 as you can with a 1911, but I need a crutch.
Its not going any way and i NEVER said anything about GLOCKS being perfect as they are far from it,as i said ANY pistol,rifle,washer,phones,cars(GLOCK, M&P,SIG XD, ect) thing's made by man can and will fail at some time.It just sounds like he has seen ALOT of problums with GLOCKS,but he carried one for what 10+ yrs?. As i said i want info.. just like he would or anyone else.Also please stay in your lane as this was a question for Grant.Thanks.Also GRANT knows his stuff, he has helped me in the past and i respect him and his views on firearms.He has a lot of info, I just want to know what he has seen with Glocks and get some info on it thats all.Isnt it what this site is all about?
I'll check for my lane...
But from your post, and due to the internet, its hard to tell, it sounded like so many of the other Glock cheerleaders on other boards who refuse to believe someone, let alone an agency has had problems with Glocks, of any nature. All because their reletively small sample has been "perfect".
As I said of my buds G19 incident, they constantly question everything from ammo, shooter, planet alignment, but it could never just be that a Glock failed.
Bob
I think you are really comparing apples and oranges. Triggers on a USP (in SA) does not compare to a M&P trigger (especially the 45 model which has the worst trigger of the M&P series).
A crappy 1911 trigger is ALWAYS going to be better than a factory M&P trigger.
I just threw it out there for comparison because when I rented the M&P 45 I brought my 1911 and USP40 for comparison--the 1911 because it shoots the same ammo as the M&P45 and the USP because if I bought the M&P45 it was with the idea to replace the USP40 as a ready gun in the house.
Let's also face the fact that we do not all have the same hand size. The M&P has a much better grip angle than a Glock and allows you to custom fit the weapon to your hand.
This is not in dispute.
If you cannot shoot an M&P well, then all I can say is that it is not the weapons fault.
I can't agree with that. I shot both the 1911 and the USP40 (and the Glock 19) considerably better than I shot the M&Ps.
In the case of the 1911 vs the M&P9, we are talking about clearing a rack of plates in 1/3 the time with the 1911 as compared to the M&P9mm and consistantly knocking a plate down with every shot with the 1911.
The thing that people need to understand about the M&P is that the factory trigger is VERY easy to smooth out (read no gunsmith required).
If we are talking gunsmithing, not everyone is handy enough to smooth the trigger by themself.
I think if you took the M&P 45 with the thumbsafety and smoothed the trigger and dropped the weight to 4lbs you might have a gun that could give a 1911 a run for its money.
I am not saying that the M&P sucks--far from it. In my experience I just don't think it shoots as well as a Glock.
I think we are getting away from the point of the thread, which originally was someone wondering if they should trade their Glock 19 in for an M&P9.
I don't remember if someone has already posted it, but the obvious answer is for the person to rent or borrow an M&P9 to shoot alongside of his Glock 19 and come to his own conclusion.
It's obvious from this thread that some people prefer the Glock 19 while others prefer the M&P9. There is no objective answer, so obviously it is up to the individual.
I think we are getting away from the point of the thread, which originally was someone wondering if they should trade their Glock 19 in for an M&P9......
Hey, that was me ! ! !:eek: :eek: :eek:
Boy, this thread sure heated up overnight!:confused: :mad: :rolleyes: :o :D
Anyway, I finally got over to the store yesterday to re-handle the full-size 9mm M&P, which felt pretty good as-is with the "medium" backstrap. I figure it could only get better with the option of swapping out with the smaller or larger backstrap. The trigger also felt basically in the same class as a Glock (i.e. neither compare to a 1911).
Got home to my G19 and definitely concluded I have to finangle more to get it properly positioned in my hand. This is fine for competition, but I really wonder what would happen in a moment of true panic. I think the M&P would be a lot more likely to auto-index in a high-stress situation.
I'm going to try to get back for a follow-up look later today, but if my impression from yesterday stands, I hear an "I'll take it" coming from within.
Shall report back with outcome.
Thats a training issue imho, It's the people who dont use the computer between their ears is why that happens.Its not the weapons fault.The pistol does not get up and fire all buy itself.;) :D
Not always. What it means is that you cannot shoot the Glock in positions where it doesn't get optimal support. In a perfect world, the weapon always be supported, but this just isn't the case.
C4
Hey, that was me ! ! !:eek: :eek: :eek:
Boy, this thread sure heated up overnight!:confused: :mad: :rolleyes: :o :D
Anyway, I finally got over to the store yesterday to re-handle the full-size 9mm M&P, which felt pretty good as-is with the "medium" backstrap. I figure it could only get better with the option of swapping out with the smaller or larger backstrap. The trigger also felt basically in the same class as a Glock (i.e. neither compare to a 1911).
Got home to my G19 and definitely concluded I have to finangle more to get it properly positioned in my hand. This is fine for competition, but I really wonder what would happen in a moment of true panic. I think the M&P would be a lot more likely to auto-index in a high-stress situation.
I'm going to try to get back for a follow-up look later today, but if my impression from yesterday stands, I hear an "I'll take it" coming from within.
Shall report back with outcome.
There are several things that create or detract from accuracy. Grip angle, grip thickness, how close your hand rides to the bore line and smooth trigger.
The M&P has the Glock beat in the first three for sure and believe that the triggers are equal with the M&P trigger being able to be easily adjusted by the end user.
C4
The Glock is also the leading firearm for AD's because you have to pull the trigger in order to take down the weapon.
C4
And, how is that a problem with the gun?
I'll check for my lane...
But from your post, and due to the internet, its hard to tell, it sounded like so many of the other Glock cheerleaders on other boards who refuse to believe someone, let alone an agency has had problems with Glocks, of any nature. All because their reletively small sample has been "perfect".
As I said of my buds G19 incident, they constantly question everything from ammo, shooter, planet alignment, but it could never just be that a Glock failed.
Bob I agree, while i do own glocks and never had a problum(or should i say MAJOR issues) in 50,000 rounds.I do think that other companys are makeing improvements in the polymer pistol market.The M&P look's good .. but its too new and only time will tell(as S&W i think still has some bugs to work out), give it 2 or 3 yrs of HARD MIL/LE use then ill think about buying one.;) :D .Also i was not trying to be an a$$ to you about satying in your lane as i know people get VERY defensive on their chosen gear,thank you your checking your lane.:)
Hey, that was me ! ! !:eek: :eek: :eek:
Boy, this thread sure heated up overnight!:confused: :mad: :rolleyes: :o :D
Anyway, I finally got over to the store yesterday to re-handle the full-size 9mm M&P, which felt pretty good as-is with the "medium" backstrap. I figure it could only get better with the option of swapping out with the smaller or larger backstrap. The trigger also felt basically in the same class as a Glock (i.e. neither compare to a 1911).
Got home to my G19 and definitely concluded I have to finangle more to get it properly positioned in my hand. This is fine for competition, but I really wonder what would happen in a moment of true panic. I think the M&P would be a lot more likely to auto-index in a high-stress situation.
I'm going to try to get back for a follow-up look later today, but if my impression from yesterday stands, I hear an "I'll take it" coming from within.
Shall report back with outcome. Yes it was somewhat my fault about that going off a little(sorry);)
.Well if you get an M&P lets us know what you think of it after you get to put some rounds down range.The 9mm verson that i shot had VERY little recoil and was easy too shoot(i didnt not care for the trigger too much but nothing that was a big deal) I was surprised.:)
And, how is that a problem with the gun?
It is never the weapon's fault. The issue is that it is a flaw in the Glock design and when you mix that with people that forget to clear the weapon, you get an AD.
C4
There's no AD's, they're Negligent Discharges.
Grant, In all seriousness, they guide rod thing is over rated or whatever. I've shot Glocks for some time now and have never had one warp, bend, etc. I've seen Phil Strader run a bag full of mags through a G22 as fast as he could and it did warp the rod. What did that prove, well if you're Phil Strader and can pull the trigger that fast and have a bag full of mags, it will. I've never seen any training evolutions or any possible engagement that would call for that.
I've tested my Glocks strong hand, off/support/weak hand only purposely limp wristing it with a crappy grip, no issues. (this was done to check it's function in the event of an injury or weakened state)
The grip angle thing has never bothered me on any gun. Pick it up, get the master grip and track the sights to the target. I always end up with a proper sight picture, regardless of make.
To me, either you can shoot or you can't. I've seen all guns break, they all do, all sooner or later than others or the same.
I have two higher round count G17's. One has 20K through it, at some point the locking block pin broke, still worked, slide lock was swinging up so I took it out and shot on. The other 30K, trigger spring a bit after 25K, still worked just slugish on the reset. My other Glocks are lower counts with 1-5k no issues.
It all boils down to what you like the most, it doesn't necessarily make the others inferior.
Mark
There's no AD's, they're Negligent Discharges.
Grant, In all seriousness, they guide rod thing is over rated or whatever. I've shot Glocks for some time now and have never had one warp, bend, etc. I've seen Phil Strader run a bag full of mags through a G22 as fast as he could and it did warp the rod. What did that prove, well if you're Phil Strader and can pull the trigger that fast and have a bag full of mags, it will. I've never seen any training evolutions or any possible engagement that would call for that.
I've tested my Glocks strong hand, off/support/weak hand only purposely limp wristing it with a crappy grip, no issues.
The grip angle thing has never bothered me on any gun. Pick it up, get the master grip and track the sights to the target. I always end up with a proper sight picture, regardless of make.
To me, either you can shoot or you can't. I've seen all guns break, they all do, all sooner or later than others or the same.
I have two higher round count G17's. One has 20K through it, at some point the locking block pin broke, still worked, slide lock was swinging up so I took it out and shot on. The other 30K, trigger spring a bit after 25K, still worked just slugish on the reset. My other Glocks are lower counts with 1-5k no issues.
It all boils down to what you like the most, it doesn't necessarily make the others inferior.
Mark
Mark, yes there are AD's. This happens when a round cooks off in the chamber. Ask me how I know. :D
You are correct though. In this situation, it is an ND.
My info on all the Glock issues comes DIRECT from the ex-Glock employee and what the they saw. Just because you have not seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
You are again correct that a shooter will always be a shooter. This generally means that the person also spends a good amount of time practicing. Some guns require more practice than others to master. Glock falls into this catagory IMHO. The M&P (for instance) is a much easier gun to shoot because it has much better ergonomics.
Remember that I have been a Glock shooter since the very beginning. I have had lots of malfunctions in mine through the years. So peoples claims that they are the most reliable weapon out there has never held any water with me personally.
When you stack the Glock up against the M&P and get down to the nuts and bolts of the weapons, it becomes aparent which one is built better. Then add to the fact the M&P has better grip angle, adustable back plain and comes with metal sights (Novaks to boot) and I think the M&P is clearly better than the Glock.
C4
There are several things that create or detract from accuracy. Grip angle, grip thickness, how close your hand rides to the bore line and smooth trigger.....
I've been trying to find something more carryable that at-least approaches the 1911 in these qualities. I guess I'm spoiled from a decade+ of competition with 1911's, but which as I indicated earlier are FOR ME not the optimal carry.
I can deal with a more mushy trigger but really do need the gun to line-up correctly, particularly the bore axis with the axis of the forearm.
The M&P looks as if FOR ME it will do that better (i.e. more naturally/less finangling) than the G19 does. Will let you know.;)
I guess I'm spoiled from a decade+ of competition with 1911's, but which as I indicated earlier are FOR ME not the optimal carry. I've been trying to find something more carryable that at-least approaches the 1911 in these qualities.
I can deal with a more mushy trigger but really do need the gun to line-up correctly, particularly the bore axis with the axis of the forearm.
The M&P looks as if FOR ME it will do that better (i.e. more naturally/less finangling) than the G19 does. Will let you know.;)
Your just like me. I am a 1911 fan and like them because they have the best ergonomics of ANY HG made. Once you get spoiled by this weapon it is hard to shooter another. This is where the M&P caught my attention. The grip angle is similar, and can make the weapon narrow by changing out the back strap.
I do not like the 1911 for CCW though (too heavy and too many snag hazards). That is why I used Glocks. Since I have started to shoot M&P's, my Glocks have all been sold.
C4
Mark, yes there are AD's. This happens when a round cooks off in the chamber. Ask me how I know. :D
You are correct though. In this situation, it is an ND.
My info on all the Glock issues comes DIRECT from the ex-Glock employee and what the they saw. Just because you have not seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
You are again correct that a shooter will always be a shooter. This generally means that the person also spends a good amount of time practicing. Some guns require more practice than others to master. Glock falls into this catagory IMHO. The M&P (for instance) is a much easier gun to shoot because it has much better ergonomics.
Remember that I have been a Glock shooter since the very beginning. I have had lots of malfunctions in mine through the years. So peoples claims that they are the most reliable weapon out there has never held any water with me personally.
When you stack the Glock up against the M&P and get down to the nuts and bolts of the weapons, it becomes aparent which one is built better. Then add to the fact the M&P has better grip angle, adustable back plain and comes with metal sights (Novaks to boot) and I think the M&P is clearly better than the Glock.
C4
Grant, I will say and M4arc can verify it, I do hand the hand fitting to the M&P. I've always said Glock should have at least tweak that tang area.
Speaking of which, have you picked up a HK P30---although it should feel right for 700+ clams!
I must be an oddity with malfunctions, with all of those rounds, I can count them on my hand. Traced to a can full of mis matched ammo.
On the practice thing with a new gun. I don't have an issue with shooting one than another, they have a trigger.
As you know, I have a M&P coming in soon. I need to get a holster so I can start using it to see. Speaking of the old 59/69 series, I cracked 3 59 steel frames and 2 69 alloy frames when I was at the range. I guess they aren't meant for NATO ball, which is all I have through the Glocks.
Mark
Mark
Grant, I will say and M4arc can verify it, I do hand the hand fitting to the M&P. I've always said Glock should have at least tweak that tang area.
Speaking of which, have you picked up a HK P30---although it should feel right for 700+ clams!
I must be an oddity with malfunctions, with all of those rounds, I can count them on my hand. Traced to a can full of mis matched ammo.
On the practice thing with a new gun. I don't have an issue with shooting one than another, they have a trigger.
As you know, I have a M&P coming in soon. I need to get a holster so I can start using it to see. Speaking of the old 59/69 series, I cracked 3 59 steel frames and 2 69 alloy frames when I was at the range. I guess they aren't meant for NATO ball, which is all I have through the Glocks.
Mark
Mark
Vickers said to me that the HK P30 is an excellent weapon, but I have not yet shot one.
The deal closer for me on the M&P is that I shot someone elses M&P after just shooting my Glock. Not only did I shoot faster, but I shot it better. This was a HUGE clue to me that I preferred the M&P. When your body tells you things like that, you have to listen.
C4
I guess it's like finding the right woman!
I haven't shot the P30, I doubt there's any quality issues. I like my G17, it's my duty gun so my concentration will be on that platform.
Hey shouldn't you be waiting on customers?
I guess it's like finding the right woman!
I haven't shot the P30, I doubt there's any quality issues. I like my G17, it's my duty gun so my concentration will be on that platform.
Hey shouldn't you be waiting on customers?
I just kicked the local Sheriff's Deputy out of the shop so I don't have any more customers to wait on. :D
C4
Failure2Stop
10-31-07, 12:53
I went to Glocks a few years ago, and I never really knew why until just now. This reason alone is going to prevent me from buying any other comparable pistol. This reason is pretty much applicable to me and me alone.
I love Glocks because I hate them. I abuse them, toss them, throw them, shoot the hell out of them, and don't clean them. In short, they are perfect. I occasionally have to dis-arm in order to go into certain buildings and areas (Gun Free Zones, don't you know! They don't mind the laws about rape and murder, but bet your ass they won't shoot up a school. . . wait)
What do I do with my beloved pisol? Unload and toss it under my seat. I usually come back to find an old shriveled french fry sticking out of the slide, or an old gum-wrapper stuck to the muzzle. Imagine that with a 1911! On my Glock, no worries, not even bothered really.
So that is why I can't go to another platform, I might like them.
I can deal with a more mushy trigger but really do need the gun to line-up correctly, particularly the bore axis with the axis of the forearm.
The M&P looks as if FOR ME it will do that better (i.e. more naturally/less finangling) than the G19 does. Will let you know.;)
The only way to tell is to fire them both side by side. A trigger that may feel a bit more nushy when dry firing could prove to be more of a hinderance with live rounds.
The biggest thing I have seen is the weapon does not function well if it is limp wristed. The plastic guide rod is a no go. Drop it and and damage this piece and you are SOL. Cracked frames because there is not a steel roll cage built in. Mags that won't drop free and last but not least if the weapon gets hot enough, the guide rod can be warped and cause malfunctions.
We could also go into the cheap plastic sights that come factory, but we will save those for later. ;)
C4
A lot of those sound like shooter error to me not something wrong with the gun. limp wristing is not good for any gun, if you ask me.
i have gotten my glock so hot that the slide was to hot to touch and it never warped the guide rod. 20k+ rounds later i did change it because it started to warp some.
It is a matter of preference, if you like a glock stay with a glock.
if you like an M&P than stay with that, the good thing about both guns is that they are both good guns, and both are fairly inexpensive. so you can buy both and make your own judgement.
The Glock is also the leading firearm for AD's because you have to pull the trigger in order to take down the weapon.
C4
Right, that is the guns fault not the shooter?
god forvid you find out the condition your weapon is in before you handle it.
WOW!!!!!!!!
im out of this one.
A lot of those sound like shooter error to me not something wrong with the gun. limp wristing is not good for any gun, if you ask me.
i have gotten my glock so hot that the slide was to hot to touch and it never warped the guide rod. 20k+ rounds later i did change it because it started to warp some.
It is a matter of preference, if you like a glock stay with a glock.
if you like an M&P than stay with that, the good thing about both guns is that they are both good guns, and both are fairly inexpensive. so you can buy both and make your own judgement.
I guess dropping the weapon is the shooters error, but it points out that there are a lot of easily broken parts (like the guide rod) in the Glock.
I have also seen people induce malfunctions in Glock's by shooting them at weird angles as well. Limp wristing is of course not a good way to shoot, but it does happen and I prefer to have a weapon that will shoot no matter what.
People should buy and use what they like. I am just here to tell people why I dropped the Glock and went to the M&P. I also shared SOME of the Ex-Glock employees comments. Maybe in another thread, we will go into their lack of customer service. ;)
C4
Right, that is the guns fault not the shooter?
god forvid you find out the condition your weapon is in before you handle it.
WOW!!!!!!!!
im out of this one.
Agree, but the fact still remains that having to pull the trigger to disassemble the weapon is not the best situation.
C4
It is never the weapon's fault. The issue is that it is a flaw in the Glock design and when you mix that with people that forget to clear the weapon, you get an AD.
C4
That's not a flaw.
I think it's way too early to say the M&P is a better built handgun. The problem I have with saying the M&P is superior is that we've seen a number of issues with the M&P already (some of which S&W has yet to properly fix) and what will the defense be with someone shoots themselves when they disassemble their M&P for cleaning.
It's not the gun, it's the idiot holding the gun.
I think it's way too early to say the M&P is a better built handgun. The problem I have with saying the M&P is superior is that we've seen a number of issues with the M&P already (some of which S&W has yet to properly fix) and what will the defense be with someone shoots themselves when they disassemble their M&P for cleaning.
It's not the gun, it's the idiot holding the gun. Agreed, When people say the the M&P is a better built pistol then say a (put your band of pistol here) this pistol is still VERY new,GLOCK and other pistols have been used ALL over the world for MANY YEARS.There are soo many out there you are going to hear about problums.Like i said before, its going to take a while before we know how good the M&P REALLY is.And if it is, im jumping on that M&P bandwagon ASAP.:D :p ;)
Agreed, When people say the the M&P is a better built pistol then say a (put your band of pistol here) this pistol is still VERY new,GLOCK and other pistols have been used ALL over the world for MANY YEARS.There are soo many out there you are going to hear about problums.Like i said before, its going to take a while before we know how good the M&P REALLY is.And if it is, im jumping on that M&P bandwagon ASAP.:D :p ;)
I jumped on the bandwagon and I do like my M&P but it hasn't proven itself like my Glocks have yet. I've never had a problem with my G19 and only one stovepipe with my G17 very early on.
There's little doubt that the Glocks are some of the most reliable handgun on the market today and I would like to see the M&P get there but right now they have some kinks to work out with the strikers (supposedly fixed), the slide release, the mag catches and some feeding issues in the compact.
There's no way I'm giving up my Glocks but I will definitely add more M&Ps to my stable :)
I jumped on the bandwagon and I do like my M&P but it hasn't proven itself like my Glocks have yet. I've never had a problem with my G19 and only one stovepipe with my G17 very early on.
There's little doubt that the Glocks are some of the most reliable handgun on the market today and I would like to see the M&P get there but right now they have some kinks to work out with the strikers (supposedly fixed), the slide release, the mag catches and some feeding issues in the compact.
There's no way I'm giving up my Glocks but I will definitely add more M&Ps to my stable :)
Just make sure you dont break or warp that plastic guide rod on that Glock;) J/K(unless you are useing a differnt guide rod).Also, please be safe and make sure your Glock is clear/unloaded before you pull that trigger for dissasembly.;) :D J/K(Sorry Grant had to say that):D
No one has mentioned that you can do the same thing on the M&P (pull the trigger to disassemble). I haven't done it yet but it can be done so it's only a matter of time before some jackass shoots himself while disassembling an M&P.
Then what will we say? Will we say the M&P design is flawed?
No one has mentioned that you can do the same thing on the M&P (pull the trigger to disassemble). I haven't done it yet but it can be done so it's only a matter of time before some jackass shoots himself while disassembling an M&P.
Then what will we say? Will we say the M&P design is flawed?
I used to do that out of habit.
Neither design is flawed. It's the human that is flawed.
That's not a flaw.
Maybe in your opinion, but to many others (including me) it is.
C4
I think it's way too early to say the M&P is a better built handgun. The problem I have with saying the M&P is superior is that we've seen a number of issues with the M&P already (some of which S&W has yet to properly fix) and what will the defense be with someone shoots themselves when they disassemble their M&P for cleaning.
It's not the gun, it's the idiot holding the gun.
There are some bugs in the M&P system. Remember the Gen I Glocks??? All kinds of issues them.
I believe that the M&P is much farther along in their growth than Glock was when they first started. The other key is that S&W (generally speaking) has excellent customer service as well IF there is an issue.
C4
Just make sure you dont break or warp that plastic guide rod on that Glock;) J/K(unless you are useing a differnt guide rod).Also, please be safe and make sure your Glock is clear/unloaded before you pull that trigger for dissasembly.;) :D J/K(Sorry Grant had to say that):D
You are correct. These are all issues with the Glock and one should be concerned about them.
All of my Glocks had ISMI SS guide rods in them. Cheap plastic guide rods make zero sense.
C4
No one has mentioned that you can do the same thing on the M&P (pull the trigger to disassemble). I haven't done it yet but it can be done so it's only a matter of time before some jackass shoots himself while disassembling an M&P.
Then what will we say? Will we say the M&P design is flawed?
Ah, but there is a difference. You HAVE to pull the trigger on the Glock to disassemble it. Not so on the M&P.
C4
Robb Jensen
11-01-07, 08:16
Ah, but there is a difference. You HAVE to pull the trigger on the Glock to disassemble it. Not so on the M&P.
C4
You can lock the slide to the rear on a Glock and remove the striker assy and then remove the slide assembly from the pistol. However most people don't know how or don't do this. ;)
You can lock the slide to the rear on a Glock and remove the striker assy and then remove the slide assembly from the pistol. However most people don't know how or don't do this. ;)
LOL, this is true.
C4
Linea_de_Fuego
11-01-07, 09:19
While we are discussing the merits and detriments of these two platforms would you all comment about the M&P intermal lock vs. no lock. I looked at the picture thread and saw most of the purchases have the lock. Since I am in CA and my choices are limited the mag safety is not an option, but there is a choice of internal lock or not. The choice without the lock however has a 10 pound trigger.
I know that there are solutions after purchase to some issues, but which model would be better the lock and lighter trigger or no lock and heavy trigger?
While we are discussing the merits and detriments of these two platforms would you all comment about the M&P intermal lock vs. no lock. I looked at the picture thread and saw most of the purchases have the lock. Since I am in CA and my choices are limited the mag safety is not an option, but there is a choice of internal lock or not. The choice without the lock however has a 10 pound trigger.
I know that there are solutions after purchase to some issues, but which model would be better the lock and lighter trigger or no lock and heavy trigger?
I am not sure why you believe that the models without the internal lock have a 10lbs trigger? None of the of the ones we have in here are like that.
I personally would NEVER go with an internal lock (or the mag safety).
C4
Linea_de_Fuego
11-01-07, 12:29
I am not sure why you believe that the models without the internal lock have a 10lbs trigger? None of the of the ones we have in here are like that.
I personally would NEVER go with an internal lock (or the mag safety).
C4
I don't live in the real world but California. So the only choice is 10 round mag and mag safety with or with out the lock.
The description of the pistol from S&W describes the following:
109004: 10 Rd, Mag Safety, Int Lock, Std Sights, 2 Mags
109234: 10 Rd, Mag Safety, 10 lb Trig., Std Sights, 2 Mags
So I wanted your input about which is the better choice.
I don't live in the real world but California. So the only choice is 10 round mag and mag safety with or with out the lock.
The description of the pistol from S&W describes the following:
109004: 10 Rd, Mag Safety, Int Lock, Std Sights, 2 Mags
109234: 10 Rd, Mag Safety, 10 lb Trig., Std Sights, 2 Mags
So I wanted your input about which is the better choice.
I might be able to help you with some other options. Contact me offline.
C4
The Glock is also the leading firearm for AD's because you have to pull the trigger in order to take down the weapon.
C4
I disagree with this. The reason it is the leading firearm for ADs (which I do not believe until someone shows me statistics), is because there are so many Glocks out there, often in the hands of inexperienced shooters.
I also disagree that Glock ADs occur when taking the weapon down. 95% of all ADS I have heard about involving a Glock occur during re-holstering -> Operator error.
Finally, I have never heard of a AD when taking down the weapon, when the directions for take down are followed. I think it is more operator error in the form of improper training and not following the directions than a design issue.
I do agree the biggest issue I have seen is limp-wristing.
I disagree with this. The reason it is the leading firearm for ADs (which I do not believe until someone shows me statistics), is because there are so many Glocks out there, often in the hands of inexperienced shooters.
The "inexperienced shooters" are cops. They are generally are the ones that are most guilty of this. When you combine people that handle weapons for their job and a weapon that you have to pull the trigger to break it down, you get ND's.
I also disagree that Glock ADs occur when taking the weapon down. 95% of all ADS I have heard about involving a Glock occur during re-holstering -> Operator error.
I never said that the majory of ND's happen during weapon take down.
Finally, I have never heard of a AD when taking down the weapon, when the directions for take down are followed. I think it is more operator error in the form of improper training and not following the directions than a design issue.
I do agree the biggest issue I have seen is limp-wristing.
Your assuming that everyone lives in a perfect world. We do not. Just last week, the local Chief of Police fired his when (ND) when he went to field strip it.
I fully get that it is operator error, but it still happens and one way to cut it down is to not require the trigger to be pulled for take down.
C4
bullitt5172
11-02-07, 11:26
The "inexperienced shooters" are cops. They are generally are the ones that are most guilty of this. When you combine people that handle weapons for their job and a weapon that you have to pull the trigger to break it down, you get ND's.
I never said that the majory of ND's happen during weapon take down.
Your assuming that everyone lives in a perfect world. We do not. Just last week, the local Chief of Police fired his when (ND) when he went to field strip it.
I fully get that it is operator error, but it still happens and one way to cut it down is to not require the trigger to be pulled for take down.
C4
NOT checking the chamber before you pull the trigger is 100% user error. You CANNOT blame the weapon for that. Companies cannot (even though they try) make everything 100% idiot proof. There is always a better idiot around the corner.
M&P's are great, if I didn't already have a bunch of Glocks and mags/holsters etc I would consider one. I had a 9mm fullsize for a while and didn't see enough difference to make me sell all my Glock stuff and switch. Starting fresh might have been a different story.
NOT checking the chamber before you pull the trigger is 100% user error. You CANNOT blame the weapon for that. Companies cannot (even though they try) make everything 100% idiot proof. There is always a better idiot around the corner.
M&P's are great, if I didn't already have a bunch of Glocks and mags/holsters etc I would consider one. I had a 9mm fullsize for a while and didn't see enough difference to make me sell all my Glock stuff and switch. Starting fresh might have been a different story.
We are all in agreement that the user is responsible to checking the weapon to make sure that it isn't not loaded. The issue is that this does NOT always happen. Glocks add to ND because of the fact that you have to pull the trigger to break them down.
C4
People seem to be getting emotionally invested.....
The Glock is far from perfect. Get over it.
During our training today I witnessed something that was a little concerning with an M&P .40. During a speed reload the magazine fell apart, dumping the rounds and spring onto the ground. The shooter grabbed another magazine to reload and that magazine did the same exact thing. Another M&P shooter said that he had multiple malfunctions. Our armorer did say that that was first time he has seen any issues with the M&P’s.
I think I'm going to hold off on the M&P until S&W solves some of its teething problems. Today may have just been a fluke but I wouldn’t want to have those kinds of problems with a duty firearm. I love how the M&P feels in the hand and it’s a very smooth shooter but I won’t be replacing my P226R for one anytime soon.
We are all in agreement that the user is responsible to checking the weapon to make sure that it isn't not loaded. The issue is that this does NOT always happen. Glocks add to ND because of the fact that you have to pull the trigger to break them down.
Have to disagree on this one - the weapon is passive, it doesn't add or contribute anything to AD's. Anyone remember when people were saying that Glocks were unsafe because a few oxygen thieves holstered their loaded Glocks with their booger hooks on the trigger...? If someone fails to check the chamber first and has an AD during disassembly, it's their fault - nothing at all to do with the weapon.
During our training today I witnessed something that was a little concerning with an M&P .40. During a speed reload the magazine fell apart, dumping the rounds and spring onto the ground. The shooter grabbed another magazine to reload and that magazine did the same exact thing. Another M&P shooter said that he had multiple malfunctions. Our armorer did say that that was first time he has seen any issues with the M&P’s.
How did it fall apart exactly? Did the base of the magazine come apart when it hit the ground or as he grabbed it?
How did it fall apart exactly? Did the base of the magazine come apart when it hit the ground or as he grabbed it?
Both baseplates came off when he was inserting the mags.
I've been trying to find something more carryable that at-least approaches the 1911 in these qualities. I guess I'm spoiled from a decade+ of competition with 1911's, but which as I indicated earlier are FOR ME not the optimal carry.
I can deal with a more mushy trigger but really do need the gun to line-up correctly, particularly the bore axis with the axis of the forearm.
The M&P looks as if FOR ME it will do that better (i.e. more naturally/less finangling) than the G19 does. Will let you know.;)
I would also suguest you try a Kahr K9 or P9, if you dont mind a 9mm.
there are for me the easiest things to conceal and very reliable, accurate guns.
they also make them in .40
for me it ahs the traditional grip to bore angle like the 1911 so you might not have to retrain your presentation.
Both baseplates came off when he was inserting the mags.
:eek:
Wow, do you know when he purchased them or how long he had been using them?
During our training today I witnessed something that was a little concerning with an M&P .40. During a speed reload the magazine fell apart, dumping the rounds and spring onto the ground. The shooter grabbed another magazine to reload and that magazine did the same exact thing. Another M&P shooter said that he had multiple malfunctions. Our armorer did say that that was first time he has seen any issues with the M&P’s.
I think I'm going to hold off on the M&P until S&W solves some of its teething problems. Today may have just been a fluke but I wouldn’t want to have those kinds of problems with a duty firearm. I love how the M&P feels in the hand and it’s a very smooth shooter but I won’t be replacing my P226R for one anytime soon.
Interesting. I wonder if the base plate was not installed properly and then came off when it was inserted into the weapon.
C4
Have to disagree on this one - the weapon is passive, it doesn't add or contribute anything to AD's. Anyone remember when people were saying that Glocks were unsafe because a few oxygen thieves holstered their loaded Glocks with their booger hooks on the trigger...? If someone fails to check the chamber first and has an AD during disassembly, it's their fault - nothing at all to do with the weapon.
Again, read what I said. We all know that it is an ND. The weapons design does not help the situation in the least.
C4
I did not read all the prior posts so this may have been discussed. I like the availablility of parts for the Glocks which allow me to fix virtually any problem (of course Glocks don't have problems;) ) without having to send it into the factory. That makes me stick with the Glock. Plus I've seen a "test" M&P .45 with its share of problems. Go with Glock.
:eek:
Wow, do you know when he purchased them or how long he had been using them?
Around six months or so.
Interesting. I wonder if the base plate was not installed properly and then came off when it was inserted into the weapon.
C4
The base plates were installed properly.
I did not read all the prior posts so this may have been discussed. I like the availablility of parts for the Glocks which allow me to fix virtually any problem (of course Glocks don't have problems;) ) without having to send it into the factory. That makes me stick with the Glock. Plus I've seen a "test" M&P .45 with its share of problems. Go with Glock.
We stock all the common parts that can break on a M&P.
C4
The base plates were installed properly.
Roger. Was wondering more if where the base plate interfaces the spring base plate was worn and or not machined properly.
I hope you guys sent it back to S&W so they could advise what the issue was.
C4
Robb Jensen
11-03-07, 13:06
Sounds to me like the bases weren't on all the way.
I've been using an M&P9 since last October and have dropped the mags on concrete, gravel, sand, grass at least 500 times (I have 11 mags) and haven't had that happen. I have broken exactly 1 plastic bottom, the front lip broke off and the mag still held together. Not saying it can't happen just that I've not experienced it yet.
Bulldog1967
11-03-07, 16:29
I use to carry and shoot Glocks all the time. Now, I carry nothing but M&Ps.
Same here. 2 g17s, a g19, and a g21 all got replaced with two full size 9's, a .45 and a compact 9mm M&P.
Roger. Was wondering more if where the base plate interfaces the spring base plate was worn and or not machined properly.
I hope you guys sent it back to S&W so they could advise what the issue was.
C4
I'm sure that they will be sending them back. I have no idea exactly how they broke. All I heard were a couple of "WTF's" and looked over to see the shooter picking up the pieces of his magazines.:eek:
Sounds to me like the bases weren't on all the way.
We had been shooting for a while... they would have failed earlier in the day if they weren't on all the way.
I have both, shoot both well... but prefer the G19.
I bought the M&P as I didn't think I could get used to the Glock grip angle, and I like the M&P trigger more than the Glocks. My hands are also very large, and felt much better on the M&P (w/ large grip) than on the Glock.
I sent my M&P to have its trigger weight brought to 5#, had the overtravel reduced, and the reset firmed up. As it took a while to get my gun back and tested out...I bought a 2nd gen G19 in the mean-time, and trained with it.
While my M&P was out (6 weeks-ish) I got used to the Glock and began to shoot it very well. These days I shoot my stock Glock better then I do the M&P, despite it having a killer trigger. That'll piss you off after you sink a few hundred $ in custom work into a gun!
I'm planning on shooting/ carrying my M&P9 fulltime again, and trying to fall back in love with it... but if that doesn't happen, it's getting sold. I wish I just sucked it up and got the Glock in the first place, despite all of the reasons I had to like the M&P.
Robb Jensen
11-06-07, 05:38
Sounds to me like the bases weren't on all the way.
We had been shooting for a while... they would have failed earlier in the day if they weren't on all the way.
If you still have the broken mags please post pics of what broke. I'm very interesting in what's breaking on M&Ps.
Welp, I finally got back to the store yesterday for a second look. Still felt real good, so I asked if they had one in stock that featured:
(1) regular sights
(2) no mag-drop safety, and
(3) no internal (infernal....) lock,
which they did and brought out for me to judge.
I also was allowed to try the various backstraps. Putting on the small one clinched it for me -- one of the best fitting non-1911's I have yet come across, and definitely the best fitting among the poly-frames.
Went ahead and put that gun on layaway. Hopefully will free-up the needed cash before the end of the year.
I have both, shoot both well... but prefer the G19......
I didn't think I could get used to the Glock grip angle......
My hands are also very large, and felt much better on the M&P (w/ large grip) than on the Glock......
I'm planning on shooting/ carrying my M&P9 fulltime again, and trying to fall back in love with it... but if that doesn't happen, it's getting sold.....
That's really interesting, and amazing how impressions can vary.
I'm fine with the angle on the Glock, it's the blocky cross section of the grip that gives me trouble. The M&P has a more oval cross section like a 1911 or CZ75B that I like.
My hands are apparently smaller than average, so the small backstrap is probably going to work best for me.
I still have the G19 for now, and will be comparing both for awhile. I'm trying to stay open-minded so that whichever objectively performs the best will win out. Once I get the M&P out of layaway, I'll report back with impressions.
If you still have the broken mags please post pics of what broke. I'm very interesting in what's breaking on M&Ps.
The magazines were never in my possession. I'll ask my armorer about them next time that I see him. I'm sure he sent the mags back to S&W for replacement.
I shot the M&P again today....didn't shoot it any better than my G19 in slow fire, for group size. I absolutely shoot my G19 (2nd gen, w/ Sandpaper Decal Grips) much better at speed, then I do my tricked out M&P.
I had no less that 3 other people shoot it today, and comment on how amazing the trigger is on it (and I have a bomar style target rear sight on the gun), and I still don't shoot it any better than my stock G19. One of those who shot it today, is a very solid combat shooter (heads-up a nearby swat team) and couldn't stop raving about how sweet the trigger was.
It's getting sold, the money should help buy my first AR.
Honestly, I'd recommend getting some formal instruction...renting a different pistol every trip to the range...practicing the basics on a variety of weapons until you know you can shoot just about any gun out there pretty well...then coming back to the choice again. I really think that once you really have the basics down, you can pick up just about any thing and shoot well with them. And if you can do that...why NOT buy a Glock?
I'm lucky in the fact that I frequently work as a Range Officer when I'm not doing sales... I get to put 5 rounds here, and 5 rounds there, through every gun out there. Once you master the basics, you can pickup any thing and group shots with it.
I really respect S&W as a company....but my Glock is my "go to" gun.
The magazines were never in my possession. I'll ask my armorer about them next time that I see him. I'm sure he sent the mags back to S&W for replacement.
S-1 - Where they the 10 round mags? I have a couple 10 rounders for range beaters and when I load them up I can feel the whole bottom piece moving around. I can see how they might break under hard use.
.....Once you master the basics, you can pickup any thing and group shots with it......
I've owned and shot too many different handguns over the past 20 years to be able to list here. Although I can shoot my G19 at-least reasonably well, I have to give extra attention to positioning my hand properly. The position it naturally falls into is way off. I am able to compensate for this -- which is fine for instance in competition -- but it adds to the checklist of mental functions, either conscious or subconscious.
I've never had that issue with a 1911. Could probably pick one up sleepwalking and it would be spot-on. It just physically fits my hand better, no brain needed.
For me, the M&P may come closer to that ideal than any other non-1911. If so, it would have the advantage as a lightweight, high-capacity, self-defense tool of correctly self-positioning, while my brain is otherwise pre-occupied by those who are wanting to do bad things to me. :eek:
If the M&P doesn't work out, I'm left with the alternative of seriously considering a way to haul around some kind of 1911 all day.
....It's getting sold, the money should help buy my first AR.....
UURRRGGHHH ??? ! ! !
You don't yet have an AR ???
Well, you'll have to sell something then. A car, a kidney, first-born child, whatever.....
For me, the M&P may come closer to that ideal than any other non-1911.
The grip angle on the M&P is 18 degrees just like the 1911.
Less blocky, more oval cross section too.
S-1 - Where they the 10 round mags? I have a couple 10 rounders for range beaters and when I load them up I can feel the whole bottom piece moving around. I can see how they might break under hard use.
Nope. They were standard capacity mags.
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