New upper, or New Caliber : Distance shooting

[TonyTacoma]

I need some input from you fine gentleman on a subject that has recently come up with some shooting friends. We all enjoy our carbines and have a great time shooting and training with them. One thing that has come up recently has been the idea of going into some distance shooting, mostly for recreation but also for sort of a worst case scenario situation, both for hunting and long range protection.

I'm currently running a 16" CHF AR and have somewhat good luck with semi-ranged targets ( I mostly shoot with irons or RD ) but have never taken things into long distances. Originally I had planned right of the bat to build and AR platformed .308 and just go balls to the wall, but after looking into the wallet and bank account I'm starting to look at other possibilities. Shooting .308 would require a new rifle completely, so big money there, then of course the cost of ammo is much higher as-well so more money there.

The other option I'm looking at is putting together a new upper for my 5.56 with a stainless barrel and something like a vltor VIS with a barrel length of around 18-20"

Now I don't have all the answers when it comes to long range shooting and I'm not sure all the differences and pro's/cons, obviously the .308 is going to provide better power and distance but is it worth upgrading to the new weapon system for it.

Just looking for some input and opinion, all is welcome good or bad.

[nynco]

Well what is your budget? I could build a good 308 for around 1500.

[floyd]

Have you ever put a 8x or 10x on your 16 CHF? I'm going to try more paper target long range shooting with my 16 mid. 77Ggr SMK of course.

[nynco]

Rainier arms Ultramatch barrel. (there is a cheaper select model too)
20 in 308 $400 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2239)
MA 10 upper lower 590 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2200)
DPMS Bolt 220 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2270)
Troy TRX 308 230 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2493)
YHM gas block 20 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Yankee-Hill-Machine-Low-Profile-Gas-Block-yhm-p/YHM-9383%20Gas%20Block%20Short.htm)
Palmetto State Armory Lower build kit 124 (you can get them to sub a H3 buffer for an extra charge. (http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/598.php)
308 A2 birdcage 23 (http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10108200KIT&Category=914c4e04-7f70-4e75-b80c-90f07c3d5b62)

price 1607 and that is a damn fine riffle. You could shave more by downgrading to the lower spec barrel. That would shave off 120. I personally would upgrade to a CTR stock too.

I have priced this stuff before and this is my plan when I can save up the cash.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Mk. 12(K) upper receiver from Centurion Arms is what you want.

Throw some S&B, or NF glass on it, and a suppressor and you have an ideal precision shooting platform. (For 5.56mm)

A5 receiver extension, and KAC match trigger compliment this setup even more.

[nynco]

I wish the 6.5 Grendel rounds were more widely available. That to me is the best long distance round and the initial investment is lower than a 308. Buy an upper slap it on your 5.56 lower and go. Shoot to 800 meters all day. I just don't want to have to mail order ammo or hand load all the time.

[GermanSynergy]

Mk. 12(K) upper receiver from Centurion Arms is what you want.

Throw some S&B, or NF glass on it, and a suppressor and you have an ideal precision shooting platform. (For 5.56mm)

A5 receiver extension, and KAC match trigger compliment this setup even more.

This x1000.....

Monty at Centurion built me a MK 12 upper and it's been hell on wheels accurate w/ my NF 2.5-10x32.

[MistWolf]

What is wrong with shooting what you have now?

Before spending any money on a new upper when you don't know what you want or what works, shoot the rifle you've got now. You'd be surprised how far rifles with short, lightweight barrels can be shot accurately. You'll also get the added benefit of knowing what your main carbine can do "way out there"

[Failure2Stop]

Define "long range", and what animals you want to take.

I'm a fan of using the right tool for the job, and reliably taking deer sized game at 300 meters or more is outside the performance envelope of 5.56, even with good ammo.

[g5m]

Just for the sake of information here is a link for some long range 223 shooting:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php

[Ironman8]

Here is a couple good threads for you...

Battle for light precision supremacy: The Recce Rifle Vs. The SPR (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=80882)

308 AR Dilema (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=83483)

*Especially pay attention to my post on pg. 3 of the 2nd link where I quoted what Kyle Defoor said...pretty interesting

For "SHTF LR protection" under 400 yds, my pick would be a 16" precision 5.56 AR...for anything 400-800, I would pick a 16" .308 in a AR platform.

[Magic_Salad0892]

For "SHTF LR protection" under 400 yds, my pick would be a 16" precision 5.56 AR...for anything 400-800, I would pick a 16" .308 in a AR platform.

Your thoughts are similar to mine. For SHTF LR protection 600m or under, I'd want either my 11.5'' (witch I KNOW can do 600m, and with a scope will do it with ease), or preferably a 16.1'' Mk. 12(K).

For anything past that it'd be a 16.1'' SR-25 EMC.

However, due to money, it'd realistically be a 13'' FNH SCAR-17S.

.460 Ruger would be interesting to try though.

[Ironman8]

Your thoughts are similar to mine. For SHTF LR protection 600m or under, I'd want either my 11.5'' (witch I KNOW can do 600m, and with a scope will do it with ease), or preferably a 16.1'' Mk. 12(K).

For anything past that it'd be a 16.1'' SR-25 EMC.

However, due to money, it'd realistically be a 13'' FNH SCAR-17S.

.460 Ruger would be interesting to try though.

Here is a good quote by QuietShootr from the "If you could only have 1 fighting rifle" thread. I'm assuming this is what you mean...


I could get by with one LMT Mk18 if I had to. I would rather have a gun that I can get in and out of tight places with that needs a few more clicks of elevation at long range than one that shoots super-flat but is longer.

Where I think people miss the boat on the ballistics equation is that if I shoot someone at 15 feet, I really need them to stop what they're doing, lie down, and reconsider their poor life choices right now. If I shoot someone at 400 meters, unless they're the love child of Roy ****ing Benavidez and Manila John Basilone, they're going to be distracted enough by the hole(s) through their torso that for the remaining time they have enough oil pressure to hurt me, their effectiveness will be reduced markedly. Being that that is the case, the 10.5" will work fine for most scenarios. Besides, as a civilian, I'm more likely to have 40 meters be my long range than 400.

IIRC, our friend KevB has transferred a few souls to Jesus at 400 or so with a Mk18.

Give me my 10.5" with a good light and a couple of different optics and I'm GTG.

Yes you can make hits out to 4-600 with a SBR, but it really isn't the right tool for the job.

This is my thinking for "SHTF" or "TEOTWAWKI":

1) If "bugging out" I will take my Mk18 due to the compactness but would rather E&E and avoid all long distance engagements if possible.

2) If "bugging in" in an urban environment, I can have my Mk18 for "edc" as well as a "sniper position" where I would prefer a 16" 5.56 AR because most shots will be well within 400 yds.

3) If "bugging in" in a rural environment (where there is alot of open space) I would have my Mk18 for "edc", and two "sniper positions": one med. range with the 16" precision 5.56 AR, and another long range with the 16" .308 AR...there would be some overlap between the two, but it would be very effective. :D

[Magic_Salad0892]

1) If "bugging out" I will take my Mk18 due to the compactness but would rather E&E and avoid all long distance engagements if possible.

2) If "bugging in" in an urban environment, I can have my Mk18 for "edc" as well as a "sniper position" where I would prefer a 16" 5.56 AR because most shots will be well within 400 yds.

3) If "bugging in" in a rural environment (where there is alot of open space) I would have my Mk18 for "edc", and two "sniper positions": one med. range with the 16" precision 5.56 AR, and another long range with the 16" .308 AR...there would be some overlap between the two, but it would be very effective. :D

You're almost completely echoing what I meant.

However, I do think you're being a little unrealistic with setting up ''sniper positions'' in SHTF. I don't think too many people would be organized enough to do that.

Unless we were in a ''Red Dawn'' situation (highly unlikely) in which I do actually believe That would be applicable...

I'd also like to add that I convinced my girlfriend's dad to buy a Centurion Mk. 12 (18'') upper, and I shot a 9'' or so group at 850m with it, with some handloads he worked up. Longest distance I've shot at with a 5.56mm rifle BTW, and I also discovered that with a good scope my 11.1'' guns can do out to 800m. I didn't go any farther, as I was just making hits. I consider the effective range 600m and less.

I'd imagine that if I actually got into a fight with somebody at 800m with a Mk. 18 I'd have to shoot them a few times to put them down.

He told me that he actually got a 10'' group at almost 1000m with it.

That alone sold me on it.

[Ironman8]

You're almost completely echoing what I meant.

However, I do think you're being a little unrealistic with setting up ''sniper positions'' in SHTF. I don't think too many people would be organized enough to do that.

Unless we were in a ''Red Dawn'' situation (highly unlikely) in which I do actually believe That would be applicable...

I'd also like to add that I convinced my girlfriend's dad to buy a Centurion Mk. 12 (18'') upper, and I shot a 9'' or so group at 850m with it, with some handloads he worked up. Longest distance I've shot at with a 5.56mm rifle BTW, and I also discovered that with a good scope my 11.1'' guns can do out to 800m. I didn't go any farther, as I was just making hits. I consider the effective range 600m and less.

I'd imagine that if I actually got into a fight with somebody at 800m with a Mk. 18 I'd have to shoot them a few times to put them down.

He told me that he actually got a 10'' group at almost 1000m with it.

That alone sold me on it.

Yes, you're right, it is unrealistic, but would be the "best case" senario if you had a "bugout retreat" with the manpower to man the positions. I don't on both accounts unfortunately. What I was trying to convey really in those "situations" was the "role" for each weapon platform (IMO).

Nice shooting with the Mk12 man. I want to put together a precision 16", but that will be down the road.

[C-grunt]

Like these guys have said before you should really try your rifle out at distance. My DMR I had in 05 would make reliable 1st shot hits out to about 600 meters if I was up to it. I shot it out to 800 meters a few times but never made 1st shot hits, but I blame that more on the optic, ACOG, than the rifles accuracy.

[Shiz]

5.56 out of a 16 inch barrel easily will do 600-700 yds. with a decent scope.

I was popping mansized targets easily out to that far. 69 gr SMK, or very similar.

[Ironman8]

5.56 out of a 16 inch barrel easily will do 600-700 yds. with a decent scope.

I was popping mansized targets easily out to that far. 69 gr SMK, or very similar.

Its not about whether you can make the hits or not, its about the ballistics once the round gets there.

[TonyTacoma]

Quality responses as always, thanks a ton. I know that 5.56 definitely has the ability to reach out and touch at a good distance I just have never taken mine very far. I think I may just grab some nice glass and see what it can do. I thi k part of my wanting a 308 is just that do-all type feeling, the ability to shoot at very long distances and be able to take down bigger game if need be.

To keep costs down I make look into a precision upper, but I think having a 308 laying around and knowing how to shoot it would be preferable. Hmm decisions decisions.

[TonyTacoma]

Here is a couple good threads for you...

Battle for light precision supremacy: The Recce Rifle Vs. The SPR (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=80882)

308 AR Dilema (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=83483)

*Especially pay attention to my post on pg. 3 of the 2nd link where I quoted what Kyle Defoor said...pretty interesting

For "SHTF LR protection" under 400 yds, my pick would be a 16" precision 5.56 AR...for anything 400-800, I would pick a 16" .308 in a AR platform.

Thans for the links, good reads!

[donwalk]

the basics are simple: the farther you shoot, the larger the caliber is needed.

on the average AR platform, the AR-10 in .308 is "The way to go".

there's been volumes written about long range shooting, calibers and the rifles to do it with but in the end, right now the .338 Lapua is king of the mountain in long range shooting/sniping. but...alas and alack...the .338 Lapua is not offered on a AR platform (i am not aware of it if there is...)

in the end...I'd say look to an AR-10 in 7.62x52 if you want some serious long range capabilities in the AR world.

[Magic_Salad0892]

the basics are simple: the farther you shoot, the larger the caliber is needed.

on the average AR platform, the AR-10 in .308 is "The way to go".

there's been volumes written about long range shooting, calibers and the rifles to do it with but in the end, right now the .338 Lapua is king of the mountain in long range shooting/sniping. but...alas and alack...the .338 Lapua is not offered on a AR platform (i am not aware of it if there is...)

in the end...I'd say look to an AR-10 in 7.62x52 if you want some serious long range capabilities in the AR world.

.50 Cal is offered in the AR platform. :p

[John_Burns]

Extending your shooting is a great thing to do and you will learn a lot along the way.

When on a budget spending your dollars on “most bang for the buck items” first will get you shooting at distance sooner.

The optic is really where it is at in long range and will give you way more capability per dollar spent than anything else. An AR-10 in 308 with cheesy optics is way behind a decent AR-15 16” with a really first class LR optic.

The great thing about getting your LR optic first is you can use it with what you have now and then when funds allow move it to whatever upgrade your shooting shows you will be next.

Don’t sell the 5.56/.223 short as it has been kicking the 308s butt in most any type of service rifle competition for quite a few years. Seems light recoil can and does negate the slight ballistic advantage the 308 has when it just comes down to simply hitting a target at extended distance.

Until you can hit at 800yds with the 5.56/.223 going up to the .308 for better terminal performance won’t help you.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Yes, you're right, it is unrealistic, but would be the "best case" senario if you had a "bugout retreat" with the manpower to man the positions. I don't on both accounts unfortunately. What I was trying to convey really in those "situations" was the "role" for each weapon platform (IMO).

Nice shooting with the Mk12 man. I want to put together a precision 16", but that will be down the road.

IMHO, get good glass for your current gun. NF scope, on a QD mount is the cheapest best glass you can get, IMHO. Whereas Vortex is the best cheap scope you can get, and Schmidt & Bender is just the best.

Get yourself some glass, and a QD mount (I already have a few KAC 30mm One piece mounts waiting for my future S&B scopes), and throw that on the rifle you have now. It may not have the uber precision, but you'll be able to make the hits necessary, and get practice.

I live in an urban area with high population density so 5.56mm is pretty much the largest rifle caliber I'd need. (7.62 is just an excuse for me to own an EMC, or a SCAR) And where I live is another reason I don't choose a barrier blind round as a defensive load. I use BH Mk. 262.

[TonyTacoma]

Last two posts are right up my alley. Im going to get some glass and see what my caveman barrel can do. Any recommendations for some good glass around 1k or under?

[Magic_Salad0892]

Last two posts are right up my alley. Im going to get some glass and see what my caveman barrel can do. Any recommendations for some good glass around 1k or under?

NightForce if you can swing it. I hear prices are around $1.5k, for the NXS.
USO if you can swing it. I hear prices are around $1k or so, for the SN-4.
Vortex should be affordable. I think I saw a member here who said he got it for like $700 or so.

[Ironman8]

IMHO, get good glass for your current gun. NF scope, on a QD mount is the cheapest best glass you can get, IMHO. Whereas Vortex is the best cheap scope you can get, and Schmidt & Bender is just the best.

Get yourself some glass, and a QD mount (I already have a few KAC 30mm One piece mounts waiting for my future S&B scopes), and throw that on the rifle you have now. It may not have the uber precision, but you'll be able to make the hits necessary, and get practice.

I live in an urban area with high population density so 5.56mm is pretty much the largest rifle caliber I'd need. (7.62 is just an excuse for me to own an EMC, or a SCAR) And where I live is another reason I don't choose a barrier blind round as a defensive load. I use BH Mk. 262.

I wish I already had a platform that would be suitable for this, but I don't. I plan to get a 16" Noveske stainless when I do have the funds.

[sinister]

What is wrong with shooting what you have now?

Before spending any money on a new upper when you don't know what you want or what works, shoot the rifle you've got now. You'd be surprised how far rifles with short, lightweight barrels can be shot accurately. You'll also get the added benefit of knowing what your main carbine can do "way out there"


I concur. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a CHF barrel in good condition, matched with a good trigger and decent ammunition.

An M4 with respectable mid-power telescope will dominate to 500 yards, 600 yards with a good shooter.

Shoot what you have at the ranges you expect to make consistent hits at. If with a little experience you find you can't do it is when you should consider an upgrade or different optic or weapon.

It ain't magic, it takes practice. No one touches your forehead and makes you a competent shot -- it comes with trigger time, repetition, and experience.

Hardware isn't the automatic default answer.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I wish I already had a platform that would be suitable for this, but I don't. I plan to get a 16" Noveske stainless when I do have the funds.

Any 14.5'' CHF, or 16.1'' CHF gun will do. Precision isn't needed until you have the skill to make the shots. Your current gun will help you develop that skill.

If the gun is 2MOA capable (1.3MOA desired) then roll with it, and gain some experience shooting mid-to-long range with an AR rifle.

If I can do it with a chrome lined 11.1'' gun, you can do it with a 16.1'' gun. With time.

[Ironman8]

Any 14.5'' CHF, or 16.1'' CHF gun will do. Precision isn't needed until you have the skill to make the shots. Your current gun will help you develop that skill.

If the gun is 2MOA capable (1.3MOA desired) then roll with it, and gain some experience shooting mid-to-long range with an AR rifle.

If I can do it with a chrome lined 11.1'' gun, you can do it with a 16.1'' gun. With time.

Maybe I should clarify...I only have one AR at the moment. It is a 14.5" pinned with fixed front sight base. Since it is my one and only, it is my "go-to" rifle for training/SD/HD, and I have it set up as such. Plus I don't like the idea of shooting magnified optics "through" a fixed front sight...

I have hunted all my life, and do know the basics of precision shooting...and have always been a good shot. I have a bolt action .270 that I can practice on for precision, but has VERY cheap glass on it and I don't have access to more than 100 yd ranges at the moment...

Basically I just need to get out of college and start making some money! lol

[John_Burns]

Last two posts are right up my alley. Im going to get some glass and see what my caveman barrel can do. Any recommendations for some good glass around 1k or under?

The Leupold VX-3 2.5-8x32 with a target turret fits your needs to a tee.

Top tier quality and way under $1K.

[mkmckinley]

Are you actually located in Tacoma? If so you're going to have to drive a ways to really wring any BC advantage out of a 7.62 over 5.56. That's especially true considering you're on a budget. Other than Ft Lewis I don't know of any ranges on the west side that let you shoot past 400m. The advise you received from Mistwolf was excellent: get good glass and start shooting the rifle you have now at longer ranges. Learn as much as you can about long range shooting especially wind reading on that rig and then upgrade to a MK-12 upper or whatever you decide on at that time.

Learn about scopes and then get something will MIL/MIL adjustments and a MIL reticle. I've used MIL dot, MIL hash and Horus H-58 and while the H-58 is excellent you can get by with a simple MIL reticle and learn how to use it as a "poor-man's Horus". I much prefer MIL has to dot but some are the opposite.

I would also suggest getting a basic Dillon 550B reloading setup as soon as you can afford it. You'll save a lot of money on buying match ammo and be able to shoot a lot more. There's a great book, "the ABCs of Reloading" by Bill Chevalier that basically teaches you how to reload for precision rifle in a step-by step format.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Maybe I should clarify...I only have one AR at the moment. It is a 14.5" pinned with fixed front sight base. Since it is my one and only, it is my "go-to" rifle for training/SD/HD, and I have it set up as such. Plus I don't like the idea of shooting magnified optics "through" a fixed front sight...

I have hunted all my life, and do know the basics of precision shooting...and have always been a good shot. I have a bolt action .270 that I can practice on for precision, but has VERY cheap glass on it and I don't have access to more than 100 yd ranges at the moment...

Basically I just need to get out of college and start making some money! lol

My point is that you totally have enough gun to get started precision shooting, all you'd have to do is go to the range, flip optics, shoot, flip 'em back, confirm zero, and boom - SD/HD gun is back.

[TonyTacoma]

One last question

I'm currently running fsb, should I shave the front sight down and install a longer rail with flip up, or should I build a new upper all together.

Honestly I sort of like the idea of being able to switch from my battle rifle upper to my distance upper and vice versa. What do you guys think?

[Count Chocula]

Are you actually located in Tacoma? If so you're going to have to drive a ways to really wring any BC advantage out of a 7.62 over 5.56. That's especially true considering you're on a budget. Other than Ft Lewis I don't know of any ranges on the west side that let you shoot past 400m.
.

I believe the Paul Bunyan in Puyallup has a 600 meter range.