View Full Version : First Batch Of .223 Handloads with Xtreme 55G FMJs
Finally made it out to the range to shoot my first batch of 223 handloads. Made six batches of 10 rounds each, with each batch being a step in working up the loads to hopefully match the DRS 223 rounds that I found to be accurate and economical for practice and plinking. Started out by doing as much research as I could on what the DRS reloads are made with.
Rifle - Daniel Defense M4V2, 16" barrel with 1-7 twist. No optics. Irons zeroed at 100 yards with POI being POA and up 3". Range tests done at benchrest position with paper at 100 yards on Iron Sights.
DRS 223 Reloads
Brass - Lake City once fired brass off of military ranges. Length is 1.764, slightly longer than max sammi specs.
Powder - Mentioned a few places that DRS is using H335 and it looks like H335. Taking apart a DRS round and it measures out at 25.4 grains.
Primers - Not sure
Bullets - Looks like Hornady 55gr FMJ
COL - ~ 2.244
So the above is my target round, but I decided to work the loads up regardless, from what Hogden recomends.
All the reload batches are using the Brass from the DRS reloads, that I trimmed to 1.754. So each batch is now using Lake City Brass that has been fired twice.
To try and save money, I decided to buy Xtreme 55Gr FMJ bullets. They look almost exactly the same as the bullets in the DRS reloads, but are 2-3 hundreths of an inch longer and the tail is more concave.
The primers I decided to use are CCI400 Small Rifle primers, since I wasn't sure what primers DRS was using.
Used H335 for all the batches.
Durring the range test, I got excellent results, until I got to the 25.1 and 25.2 grain loads. For some reason, the groups tripled in size, or the bullets didn't even make it to the paper. I have a few theories of what was happening, but since I am new to reloading, I was hoping to get some feedback. One of my theories is... With a 1-7 twist and a 55gr bullet, the Xtreme bullets aren't holding together as well as whatever DRS is using and they are either coming apart at the higher velocities, or they are spinning too fast for the Xtreme bullets and are unstable. Either way, below are the recipes for each batch with an image of the results...
Batch 1
23 grains of H335
COL - 2.240
Fired 9 rounds and all rounds made it on paper.
http://images115.fotki.com/v607/photos/3/1217563/9883642/23_0Grain-vi.jpg
Batch 2
24 grains of H335
COL - 2.237
Fired 10 rounds, all made it on paper, but I threw one. Also, remember I'm on Irons at 100 yards, so the ammo is probably more accurate than my performance.
http://images115.fotki.com/v607/photos/3/1217563/9883642/24_0Grain-vi.jpg
Batch 3
24.5 grains of H335
COL - 2.230
Fired 10 rounds and all made it on paper, but threw another one low.
http://images57.fotki.com/v512/photos/3/1217563/9883642/24_5Grain-vi.jpg
Batch 4
25 grains of H335
COL - 2.230
fired 10 rounds and all made it on paper. This looks like the most consistent of all the batches.
http://images55.fotki.com/v608/photos/3/1217563/9883642/25_0Grain-vi.jpg
Batch 5
25.1 grains H335
COL - 2.230
Fired 10 rounds, but only 5 made it in the black, the other 5 are scattered about. Atleast I know the bullets didn't come apart.
http://images15.fotki.com/v230/photos/3/1217563/9883642/25_1Grain-vi.jpg
Batch 6
25.2 grains H335
COL - 2.230
Fired 10 rounds, but only 6 made it on paper and only 4 were in the target. Where did the rest of the batch go? Did the bullets break up before getting to the paper?
http://images57.fotki.com/v505/photos/3/1217563/9883642/25_2Grain-vi.jpg
So, since I am new to reloading 223, am I seeing what may very well be the edge of the performance envelope for these Xtreme 55 gr FMJ's in my 1-7 twist rifle? If so, then why can I shoot 2-3" groups with the DRS reloads loaded at 25.6 g with a bullet that looks almost the same?
I appreciate any input and advise...
Thanks
JB
Baedarlboo
07-08-11, 10:49
Are you crimping your reloads?
Are you crimping your reloads?
I am crimping with the Lee Factory Cromp Die. Crimp is very minor. Lee instructions call for 1/2 turn past contact with shell holder and I am doing roughly 1/4 turn past contact. All crimps are right in the middle of the cannelure. Which brings up a good point. Maybe too much crimp, but more likely maybe too little and as the charges get higher and the bolt moves further back into the buffer which causes the rounds to be loaded past the feed ramps more violently thus possibly pushing the bullets back into the case?
Talked to Xtreme yesterday and their 223 bullets aren't plated they are infact true FMJ. Also found out the DRS rounds are using the Winchester 55g bullets not the hornady ones. Also, the ogive on the DRS bullet is closer to the tip than the Xtreme plated ones, which makes me believe that there is less surface area contacting the rifling, which, correct me if I am wrong also means that the Xtreme bullet has less drag through the barrel resulting in higher velocities at relatively lower charges when compared to the DRS bullet and also may be less stable as the jump distance to the lands is greater wih the Xtreme than the DRS bullet.
Please more comments as I am learning a ton.
JB
Baedarlboo
07-08-11, 13:01
Well the difference in projectiles and OAL could have an impact.
Compare the two projectiles and see if the dimensions are the same. Measure the distance from your crimped point (on the cannelure) to the back end of the projectile and see if there are any differences between the two.
Also I don't how much of a difference the case volume is going to make from 1.764 to 1.754 but that is another variable to take in to consideration.
In all honesty, instead of trying to duplicate DRS reloads, you should just play with all the little variables and see what works best with your AR. Once you find the right projectile, powder and load, order in mass and stick to it....unless you're the experimental type and like tinkering.
BTW, I'm relatively new to reloading rifle rounds, but have been playing with pistol rounds, so take my ideas with a grain of salt. =)
Wolverine954
07-08-11, 17:13
I have found the sweet spot for 55-60gr bullets and H335 to be right at 24.5-24.6gr. Not the hottest, but the best avg. accuracy for me across three different rifles. I use Rem 7 1/2 primers. I also use thin-jacketed varmint type bullets, so YMMV.
Fired 10 rounds, but only 6 made it on paper and only 4 were in the target. Where did the rest of the batch go? Did the bullets break up before getting to the paper?
Based on your next to last target - they probably went over the top.
No absolutes, but the faster you push, the higher the POI.
Quality bullets are the #1 ingredient in getting good groups. The Hornady 55 FMJBT /w cannelure rules while still keeping the cost down.
Looks like she likes 25 grains. Good shootin' with irons. 24.5 to 25 grains seems to be the norm for just about any powder in the AR.
That's what range I shoot in and I get a good plinking round that is accurate enough to 100 yards, easy on the brass and pocketbook.
If I want factory spec loads, I buy them.
Excellent points made by everyone.
Talked to Xtreme yesterday and they said that the rounds aren't breaking up, but are actually spinning too fast at the higher loads. Also there is less bearing surface on the xtreme bullets than the Winchester ones in the DRS rounds. Once I get a crono on these loads I will probably be surprised to find out that the 25.2 g loads are aproaching 3250 FPS and that the 24.8 - 25 g loads are probably right around 3050 to 3100, which honestly is where I wanna be.
This reloading stuff is fun, thanks for all the input and advise/help.
Have a goodun
JB
If so, then why can I shoot 2-3" groups with the DRS reloads loaded at 25.6 g with a bullet that looks almost the same?
I appreciate any input and advise...
Something's wrong.
Those targets look like the black is 6" or 8" across, and you never manage to put 10/10 in the black. So I think you're shooting at least 6-8moa, which is really unacceptably poor accuracy.
If you can shoot 2-3moa with DRS's reloads in the same gun, then the problem is presumably NOT you, but is this ammo you've loaded.
It could be that the Xtreme bullets are junk, or that you're seating them too deeply or not deeply enough... I'm guessing here.
No absolutes, but the faster you push, the higher the POI.
Not necessarily.
This is true at longer ranges, but within 100yds a SLOWER projectile may impact higher because it's in the barrel longer as the barrel recoils upwards (this is why revolvers/pistols typically have higher POIs with slower bullets).
It looks like he put a round or two of the last couple batches below the black, in the white...
pilotguyo540
07-09-11, 20:56
I gave up reading with irons. All . My groups were the same!!! :lazy:
@ Bimmer
The black area is 8" across and each ring is roughly 1".
TBH, I just had a look at my last target when I recorded the DRS loads.. And all My handloads except the batches above 25g are shooting about an inch tighter groups than the DRS. So, I was wrong when I was saying I was shooting 2-3" groups at 100Yds with the DRS stuff. More like 6-8" groups overall.
The 25G batch has all 10 on the black and it looks like the tightest group. Remember I'm shooting with stock aperture irons on the M4 with a carbine length gas system and the gas block is the front sight, so my sight radius aint the longest.
In the 25.1 g batch the flyaways are 4 high and one left, in the 25.2 g batch, I had one go low and who knows where the last 4 went, but I would bet they also went high.
It's interesting what you say about slower loads POI being high because of them being lifted by barrel rise... The 23G load is a pretty slow load and the group was consistent and high and left. You think this is representative of recoil affected POI?
JB
My next set of tests will be with a crono hopefully. I also plan on working between 24.5 and 25 grains with the longest COL i can get while still having the crimp inside the cannelure. I think with these bullets and the trimmed case length of 1.757, that will be max of 2.245. I will also try and figure out a way to record my crimp level. Maybe by using the fractions of turn past shell holder contact on the Lee Factory Crimp Die, as I did not run the exact same crimp on all of the previous batches.
Again, thanks for the help
JB
I gave up reading with irons. All . My groups were the same!!! :lazy:
Good point. I guess if I really wanna get accurate results, I'm gonna have to pick up a magnified optic. Speaking of which, I just recieved my Aimpoint Pro yesterday. You think the red dot at 1x will give better accuracy at 100 yds? And... do you think the 3x magnifyer for the aimpoint will be good enough to get scope like results for the purpose of testing handloads? Or should I invest in a more magnified optic for these particular tests?
JB
Baedarlboo
07-10-11, 06:08
Good point. I guess if I really wanna get accurate results, I'm gonna have to pick up a magnified optic. Speaking of which, I just recieved my Aimpoint Pro yesterday. You think the red dot at 1x will give better accuracy at 100 yds? And... do you think the 3x magnifyer for the aimpoint will be good enough to get scope like results for the purpose of testing handloads? Or should I invest in a more magnified optic for these particular tests?
JB
Question is what can you afford? I always buy what I can afford.
30 cal slut
07-10-11, 06:15
Good point. I guess if I really wanna get accurate results, I'm gonna have to pick up a magnified optic. Speaking of which, I just recieved my Aimpoint Pro yesterday. You think the red dot at 1x will give better accuracy at 100 yds? And... do you think the 3x magnifyer for the aimpoint will be good enough to get scope like results for the purpose of testing handloads? Or should I invest in a more magnified optic for these particular tests?
JB
i am struggling with this myself. the nice thing about having a larue mount with an aimpoint comp/pro is that the zero is preserved when you remove it.
i guess i should dig out an 8x scope to measure my loads, but that involves mounting and zeroing it, etc.
I honestly dont understand why you are trying to wring every last .0001 MOA out of a plinking load. A plinking load, by my definition, is something that simulated a full power load, but is cheap to shoot. I dont think I have ever really shot my plinking loads for groups. My gun is not zero'd with them so my groups would probably be terrible.
I load up 25g of H335, behind whatever cheap ass 55g FMJ bullets with whatever cheap(non-wolf) SR primer, loaded to roughly 2.255-2.260(whatever the press decides to spit out that day).
Not, just trying to have a good time learning how to handload for 223.
Been thinking bout picking up a bolt action 223 or m21 or even a M12 clone upper so I can get crazy with accuracy. TBH, I would probably have more fun reloading for a bolt gun.
We will see.
This next batch, I increased the COL to 2.245 and crimped every round the same at 1/4 turn past shell holder contact.
The black in the target is 8x8 inches. Shot at 100yds on Irons. Weapon supported on magazine resting on bench. I was zeroing the irons after each group, which is why the center of each group is changing from target to target.
Batch 001 and 002 were shot within 5 minutes. Waited 15 minutes then shot batch 003 and 004. Another 15 minutes and then shot the DRS loads. First batches shot, 001, 003 and DR01 are tighter groups. I can only guess because the barrel wasn't so warm when I shot 002, 004 and DRS02.
http://images55.fotki.com/v608/photos/3/1217563/9883642/00124_5g-vi.jpg
http://images109.fotki.com/v779/photos/3/1217563/9883642/00224_8g-vi.jpg
http://images112.fotki.com/v355/photos/3/1217563/9883642/00325_0g-vi.jpg
http://images12.fotki.com/v616/photos/3/1217563/9883642/00425_1g-vi.jpg
http://images110.fotki.com/v629/photos/3/1217563/9883642/DRS01-vi.jpg
http://images109.fotki.com/v779/photos/3/1217563/9883642/DRS02-vi.jpg
JB
Baedarlboo
07-14-11, 07:25
Should have made the batch go upto 26gr to see if the groups kept getting tighter or see if there was a point where the groups started to spread again. :smile:
Buzz313th
I'm a little confused. Are you actually trying to shrink the groups you're shooting?
Should have made the batch go upto 26gr to see if the groups kept getting tighter or see if there was a point where the groups started to spread again. :smile:
Will do on the next batch, but not 26, as max load for the powder/bullet combo is 25.3.
Ambient temperature is playing a huge role with the powder I am using.
JB
Buzz313th
I'm a little confused. Are you actually trying to shrink the groups you're shooting?
Not sure why ur so confused, but to help, I am experimenting with different loads, length and crimp to find what shoots most accurate.
OK. Are you immobilizing your rifle? If I read your post right you are shooting off the magazine. If that is true, it is going to be really hard, if not impossible to discern any difference in your loads. You might also want to use a scope, even a cheap one, for load development. The crosshairs, and magnification will go a long ways toward keeping your POA consistent.
OK. Are you immobilizing your rifle? If I read your post right you are shooting off the magazine. If that is true, it is going to be really hard, if not impossible to discern any difference in your loads. You might also want to use a scope, even a cheap one, for load development. The crosshairs, and magnification will go a long ways toward keeping your POA consistent.
Correct, I am bracing off the mag and your so right. I'm halfway there. Just picked up a 3x magnifier for the aimpoint, so I think that will help with a consistent POA. Next step is renting a benchrest or getting some sandbags. I'm ok making mistakes in the process. But I'm learnin.
I think those changes will help you a lot. Also, I suggest using much smaller targets (at 100 yds, maybe no bigger than 2"). The smaller target will help you place the dot more consistently, and precisely.
I think those changes will help you a lot. Also, I suggest using much smaller targets (at 100 yds, maybe no bigger than 2"). The smaller target will help you place the dot more consistently, and precisely.
+1
Once I'm zeroed, then I use 8-1/2x11 targets with a 2-3" black. They're cheap (photocopies are free), and it's pretty easy to gauge groups from the bench.
Also, after having bought (and destroyed) some Made-in-China sandbags, I bought a couple Protektor sandbags, and they're fabulous — well worth the incrementally greater expense.
I load up 25g of H335, behind whatever cheap ass 55g FMJ bullets with whatever cheap(non-wolf) SR primer, loaded to roughly 2.255-2.260(whatever the press decides to spit out that day).
That is about what I do though I am using WC844T and wolf srm (or other -- I have a bunch of different srm gathered over the last 17 years) (wolf are 2007 or earlier lot primers so they have not problem with it) (WC844/844T is non canister grade H335 pull down powder).
I've loaded the same load, 25 or 25.5, I forget, of my lot of wc844T behind 2010 era LC, 1994 era IMI, and 2007 era PRVI 55 gr FMJ in mixed brass and they all go bang and hit around the same place (drill groups don't look bad and I can hit small steel targets repeatedly though not every time)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.