What constitutes an unacceptable malfunction?

[goodoleboy]

In another thread in this forum, I mentioned that I changed weapons platforms due to a malfunction resulting from a design flaw by the manufacturer of the previous weapon. We all know that weapons malfunctions are to be expected and trained for. However, what, if anything, constitutes an unacceptable malfunction that would cause you to switch platforms?

This was my example. I slipped and fell on loose soil while shooting last week. As a result of the fall, my secondary weapon (XD-45) took a pebble between the mag well and the back strap that lodged itself between mag well and grip safety, locking the grip safety in the open position. With the grip safety impinged, I could not work the slide or fire the weapon. In reflection, I felt that the grip safety on the XD was an unnecessary feature that, quite literaly, opens the weapon up to malfunctions due to dirt and debris. It was not an easily cleared malfunction either. The pebble would not dislodge from its position with slapping the bottom of the magazine well and required an exensive cleaning to clear the debris.

When I carried the XD in my car, it sat in the center console, mag well up. Any small piece of debris could have fallen into the same orifice and caused a similar malfunction. The Glock I bought to replace the XD does not have this problem. Thus, problem solved.

What are your opinions?

[GermanSynergy]

You did good.

[ShipWreck]

That is interesting. Had someone worried about this beforehand - this possibility happening... I honestly would have dismissed it as " what are the chances of that happening, c'mon..."

But, in your case, it actually happened... In some cases, any weapon can fail depending on strange circumstances, I suppose. I personally prefer DA/SA pistols. So, the XD doesn't really appeal to m much (I once owned an XD45 - years ago). I will admit that the new XDm looks pretty nice.

But... I hear what you are saying. I suppose that IF that had happened to ME, I'd probably get a new weapon platform (buy a new pistol).

I like slightly unusual rifles, as I'm more of a handgun guy in general, so it takes something a bit unusual to grab my attention. I guess that's why I like the PS90 so much.

But, I had an MSAR AUG for a while. It was 100% with the 30 round mags, but didn't work that great with my 42 rounders. I ended up getting the factory to replace the 42 rounders, and I sold the gun - with the new mags unopened.

However, in the times it did jam with the 42 rounders - it was a major pain in the butt to clear. I had to pull the barrel out completely, and once, I had to partially remove the receiver from the stock. It was almost a 5 min ordeal to clear the jam, IF one occurred.

Between that, and the way the company seems to have dropped into limbo, that was a deal breaker for me. A defensive rifle that takes that much effort to clear a jam, depending on how it occurs, was enough for me to leave the platform for good.

[aaron_c]

I think that if a malfunction is due to a flawed design, that is reason enough to get rid of it. Also if a malfunction is likely to happen with any sort of frequency at all, that is not okay with me (even a ftf or fte) as the point of a firearm is survival.

[Doc Safari]

I've put a lot of thought into this actually.

Any gun can malfunction, and will eventually do so if all the elements that make it reliable are not working in tune with each other.

Having said that, the only unacceptable malfunction to me is one that you cannot determine the cause or cannot find a solution to.

A design flaw is a good example of the latter.

[Mike169]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQfhBP3pkKNxOrRJvGTZcMbCsd0i6ECwLBof5R0PTNan8IIOpHp&t=1

[goodoleboy]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQfhBP3pkKNxOrRJvGTZcMbCsd0i6ECwLBof5R0PTNan8IIOpHp&t=1

:eek: :suicide2:

Yep, I've heard of that happening before, but I've never seen it personally. My old man has a 92F, but he rarely ever shoots it. Did the slide-stop catch it before it flew off the frame and took out some teeth?

[aaron_c]

And to further specify- the Gen4 Glocks had a spring issue causing malfuntions, which could be called a design flaw. However, Glock corrected it for free I believe, and their fix completely alleviates the issue with no negative effects. I'm okay with that generally, especially if the manufacturer stands behind their product.

[sgtjosh]

My personal opinion is that grip safeties are unnecessary. The ultimate safety is your trigger finger and muzzle discipline.

[Nephrology]

I have had a failure with a Glock relating to an obstruction. Dropped a mag on deck while shooting a stage in IPSC and went to load and make ready for the next stage with the same mag. Went to engage the targets and... dead trigger.

Had to end the stage early, didn't get a shot off. Cleared my firearm and went to disassemble on the side, and found an Airsoft BB lodged between the trigger bar and the slide that prevented it from travelling rearward far enough to release the firing pin. the BB must've hitched a ride in my mag when it hit the floor on the previous stage.

In any case, my point is that every design has some flaws to it.You have to decide what is acceptable and what isn't. The XD, though, I must agree, has too many to make it an acceptable handgun for me to own.

[sandsunsurf]

The XD grip safety is also a design flaw because I have seen multiple shooters fail to clear a complex malfunction while shooting left handed because the change in grip necessary to engage the slide lock removed the meat of their hand from the grip safety thus preventing the slide from being pulled to the rear. Whether you're left handed or just practicing with your support side hand, this results in an unacceptable situation and if this happens to you, then this is not the pistol for you.

I've also seen one person that had this problem while shooting right handed. Even unloading was a frequent problem for him; just bad form on his part from lack of professional instruction.

[Grizzly16]

I have had a failure with a Glock relating to an obstruction. Dropped a mag on deck while shooting a stage in IPSC and went to load and make ready for the next stage with the same mag. Went to engage the targets and... dead trigger.

Had to end the stage early, didn't get a shot off. Cleared my firearm and went to disassemble on the side, and found an Airsoft BB lodged between the trigger bar and the slide that prevented it from travelling rearward far enough to release the firing pin. the BB must've hitched a ride in my mag when it hit the floor on the previous stage.

In any case, my point is that every design has some flaws to it.You have to decide what is acceptable and what isn't. The XD, though, I must agree, has too many to make it an acceptable handgun for me to own.

I think sticking a bb in the internals of any gun would cause problems. That isn't a design flaw to me. However having a grip safety that can jam with debris is a problem in design.

[Straight Shooter]

Whenever I encounter odd,unusual, out -of -the- norm things like that, no matter what conventional thinking is, I go ahead and do whatever it takes IN MY MIND to rectify the problem, as you did switching to a Glock. Good for you. I switched over years ago from the 1911 platform, after over 25 years of shooting the hell out of them, to Glock myself, for my own reasons.
Another non-gun example for me, is seatbelts. I wont wear one, period.
DAMN THE LAW, I wont do it. After having been in two of the worst accidents a human being could be in and survive, and having been told by law enforcement and all involved that Id be DEAD had I had one on either time, thats enough for me. I will not argue here or elsewhere...you all have your opinions, and Ive got mine.
Main thing is, a man has got to do whatever it takes to make him comfortable in his own mind.

[Magic_Salad0892]

A malfunction due to the weapon design, or a malfunction due to shooter technique.

Both are unacceptable to me.

[Crow Hunter]

In another thread in this forum, I mentioned that I changed weapons platforms due to a malfunction resulting from a design flaw by the manufacturer of the previous weapon. We all know that weapons malfunctions are to be expected and trained for. However, what, if anything, constitutes an unacceptable malfunction that would cause you to switch platforms?

This was my example. I slipped and fell on loose soil while shooting last week. As a result of the fall, my secondary weapon (XD-45) took a pebble between the mag well and the back strap that lodged itself between mag well and grip safety, locking the grip safety in the open position. With the grip safety impinged, I could not work the slide or fire the weapon. In reflection, I felt that the grip safety on the XD was an unnecessary feature that, quite literaly, opens the weapon up to malfunctions due to dirt and debris. It was not an easily cleared malfunction either. The pebble would not dislodge from its position with slapping the bottom of the magazine well and required an exensive cleaning to clear the debris.

When I carried the XD in my car, it sat in the center console, mag well up. Any small piece of debris could have fallen into the same orifice and caused a similar malfunction. The Glock I bought to replace the XD does not have this problem. Thus, problem solved.

What are your opinions?


This isn't an isolated incident.

My brother used to have a XD40 and he had it on his hip while riding ATV's. He went through some mud and just a tiny little bit landed right at the top of the grip safety. He didn't even think any thing about it until he stopped by to go shooting that afternoon and a bit of sand/grit wouldn't let the grip safety close. We dipped it in a bucket of water and sloshed it round and that didn't work. We had to take it apart to get it cleaned out.

He sold it off the following day. Got a G19 instead. Hasn't had a problem in much worse conditions from what he has said.

[Skunk Pilot]

...We all know that weapons malfunctions are to be expected and trained for. However, what, if anything, constitutes an unacceptable malfunction that would cause you to switch platforms?

This was my example. I slipped and fell on loose soil while shooting last week. As a result of the fall, my secondary weapon (XD-45) took a pebble between the mag well and the back strap that lodged itself between mag well and grip safety, locking the grip safety in the open position. With the grip safety impinged, I could not work the slide or fire the weapon. In reflection, I felt that the grip safety on the XD was an unnecessary feature that, quite literally, opens the weapon up to malfunctions due to dirt and debris. It was not an easily cleared malfunction either. The pebble would not dislodge from its position with slapping the bottom of the magazine well and required an extensive cleaning to clear the debris.

....The Glock I bought to replace the XD does not have this problem. Thus, problem solved.

What are your opinions?


The XD grip safety is also a design flaw because I have seen multiple shooters fail to clear a complex malfunction while shooting left handed because the change in grip necessary to engage the slide lock removed the meat of their hand from the grip safety thus preventing the slide from being pulled to the rear. Whether you're left handed or just practicing with your support side hand, this results in an unacceptable situation and if this happens to you, then this is not the pistol for you.
....

I just sold my XDM9 for a M&P9L. Granted they weren't for CC, but the grip safety on the XD's seem really unnecessary. If they were trying to mimick a 1911, then why not add the thumb safety also. I would love to get a 1911 9mm, but I would never consider carrying it as a CCW, grip safety being one of them.

I had a 3rd Gen G23 and while I even liked the XDM9 (grip angle) more, I really like the M&P the most (especially with Apex FSS & Trigger). I think you made a wise choice on the Glock.

[RD62]

Shooter or ammo induced malfunctions are one thing.

Malfunctions induced by worn or poorly maintained parts is another.

Malfunctions induced by poorly designed or manufactured parts is yet another and unacceptable to me. Poor metallurgy, poor testing (or lack of testing), poor manufacturing (poor heat treat, machining, grinding, or casting of parts), poor parts finishing, etc. indicate to me a flawed weapon system that while it MAY be made to work reliably for an extended period of time, often requires greater maintenance, cost, time, etc. These flaws will lead me to seek a new weapon system, or in the case of an AR, 1911, or similar firearms (where the same model is made by several different manufacturers) a higher quality example of the same system.

[Skunk Pilot]

Shooter or ammo induced malfunctions are one thing.

Malfunctions induced by worn or poorly maintained parts is another.

Malfunctions induced by poorly designed or manufactured parts is yet another and unacceptable to me. Poor metallurgy, poor testing (or lack of testing), poor manufacturing (poor heat treat, machining, grinding, or casting of parts), poor parts finishing, etc. indicate to me a flawed weapon system that while it MAY be made to work reliably for an extended period of time, often requires greater maintenance, cost, time, etc. These flaws will lead me to seek a new weapon system, or in the case of an AR, 1911, or similar firearms (where the same model is made by several different manufacturers) a higher quality example of the same system.

Well that was very articulate, excellent post.

Anyone have what you consider to be industry, or personal experience or others you know that would say for sure that gun x (gen x or 2002-2003) you should really stay away from? Concerning AR's or handguns that you would use as defensive weapons, (ie not just guns people use at the range, my Buckmark 22lr comes to mind). I know it's a loaded question. If someone could ask it better please go ahead.

I love my new M&P9L I just picked up, but after some reading I know I would stay away from the first batch of the M&P. How many months where they had problems and where I'd stay away from I don't know for sure though.

[Axcelea]

I am going to say an unacceptable malfunction is a malfunction of the firearm induced by design flaw, mechanical wear, manufacture defect, or user error that is detrimental to the purpose of aforementioned firearm severely enough that it is an issue that can be remedied without further negation or shifting of flaw hindering the purpose of the firearm to the point that it is not accepted.

Obviously this involves emphasis on what is the purpose and intent of the firearm and what impairs that and can be corrected with the end result being more desirable and the bottom line of it not being accepted. Since there is nothing perfect then there is a line in the sand where a certain degree of malfunctions must be accepted although try as we might to act like its not, we prefer not to accept it but we do anyway.

[w3453l]

Any malfunction from the weapon's design is unacceptable

[lloydkristmas]

I expect my weapon to fire any factory loaded ammo, even the cheap crappy steel stuff, and I expect it to do so reliably with no malfunctions. If it cant, it gets sold.

I expect my weapon to fire regardless of how strongly or weakly I am able to grip it. If it cant, it gets sold.

I clean my weapons regularly, but I expect them to work reliably even if I neglect to clean them. If a weapon cant work unless its shiny clean and dripping oil, it gets sold.

I expect them to work reliably even in rough conditions (within reason, of course). If they cant, well you get the picture....

Only one line of pistols has lived up to my expectations so far.