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View Full Version : AAR: Vickers Tactical Advanced Pistol/Carbine Class, June 17-19, 2011 – Moyock, NC



m4fun
06-21-11, 23:45
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Vickers Tactical
Advanced Pistol / Carbine Class
June 17-19, 2010
U.S. Training Center, Moyock, NC.

Nobody posted yet so here is a quick AAR – folks who attended please fill in the gaps.

Another fine course at the US Training Center. Not quite what it used to be, but still a great facility. This class was geared toward more advanced students. Quite visible from the caliber of the students observed. It was really great to see lots LAV alumni as well as meet some dialed-in new folks.

Day 1 – All pistol. Mostly Glocks except an issue Beretta Vertec, an issue Sig and one XD that LAV didn’t even rag on. All performed quite well. Temps were in the upper 90s – very hot and very draining as you can imagine.

Covered the LAV’s favorite of trigger squeeze and its evil enemy, el snatcheroo. Everyone was pretty dialed-in. Ball and dummy drills, time drills, trigger reset drills and the “Humbler.”

Most of the concepts were applied in team drills and a walk back that went back all the way and ended in a tie at approx 120m!

Day 2 – Mostly carbine. Very hot again…

LAV reviewed some of the setups seen in the class. To his pleasure, most optics were Aimpoints. A couple of Trijicons TR24s and Eotechs as well. Started with dialing in at 25m and zeroing/confirming at 100m. LAV had some discussions of different distances to zero and recommended 100m as best all around. Next we covered timed drills at different distances in different positions, working our way all the back.

LAV had us concentrate on accurate well placed shots as opposed to firing fast, wasting ammo and not on target.

Some transition work and shooting on the move completed the day. Oh, and barriers…lots of focus on barriers! Barriers and team drills with barriers. With 5 barriers lots of movement from barrier to barrier.

Day 3 – Principles of both pistol and carbine with firing at the movers and firing from vehicles. Temps wise very nice...though I sucked!

We got to partake in some of the benefits of US Training Center. Firing at the steel movers, carbine and pistol. We had some technical difficulty but that what easily remedied my moving to a range close down the road. Moving targets requires you to concentrate on the leading edge and not stopping to fire but continuing to follow through. Naturally this lead to team drills where pressure was on.

During the course LAV discussed his warning against using steel for most training. Concentrating on accuracy of the bulls eye contrasted with variance of shots landing at opposite corners. Just overlay target against an upper torso piece of cardboard and its self-evident.

We proceeded to fire at both static steel and then from the mover in pairs on the back of Paul’s truck moving across the range from side to side(Larry had remodeling going on in the back of his truck this go round). Just like the “Humbler,” this was a true eye opener at many levels.

All in all – class was great and as mentioned, caliber of personnel attending excellent. This can easily be said by class veterans and well as newbie’s(who mostly were not new to good training).

Thanks Larry and Paul.

30 cal slut
06-22-11, 07:40
During the course LAV discussed his warning against using steel for most training. Concentrating on accuracy of the bulls eye contrasted with variance of shots landing at opposite corners. Just overlay target against an upper torso piece of cardboard and its self-evident.


Very interesting, I was wondering what his view was on the subject. It's easy to get carried away on steel.

d90king
06-22-11, 10:24
Great class with a great group of shooters! I will do a AAR when I get back in town. Thanks for starting this M4...

VA_Dinger
06-22-11, 15:33
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Outstanding class, this is the start of the photos;

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VA_Dinger
06-22-11, 15:34
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VA_Dinger
06-22-11, 19:15
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Heavy Metal
06-22-11, 23:32
Most of the concepts were applied in team drills and a walk back that went back all the way and ended in a tie at approx 120m!


I don't think they were going to let you and me go into the road for the tie breaker.

VA_Dinger
06-23-11, 17:54
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VA_Dinger
06-23-11, 17:56
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scope4140
06-23-11, 20:06
Great class! I will also mention that my EOTECH held up great during the three days. I should go get a lottery ticket... :D

VA_Dinger
06-23-11, 20:10
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Grey Group Training:
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m4fun
06-24-11, 09:57
I don't think they were going to let you and me go into the road for the tie breaker.

No kidding - between your SPR G17 and my G19 w/RMR...

As a comment, i know not the best idea to bring new "untested" gear to a training. My first serious outing with the One Source Tactical RMR sight. Accuracy, definitely - new platform and speed sucked! Need to work on speed. Definitely one was given up for the other and it was evident on both my performance on the walkback and negatively on target acquisition/presentation. Just looked back at how GermanSynergy and I did last year...wow.

I know, practice, practice, practice

Heavy Metal
06-24-11, 10:03
"SPR G17 "

SPP man, SPP!:D

I put my Gisele SSA in my rifle the night before class. There is a transition peroid for that too with the differing reset point. I am still getting used to it.

Jack Burton
06-24-11, 16:26
Thanks for posting the pics. It was great meeting all of you. Minus the weather, I had a blast and I look forward to seeing you all in a future class.

Jack Burton
06-24-11, 16:30
Great class! I will also mention that my EOTECH held up great during the three days. I should go get a lottery ticket... :D

Well, my Sigs both held up just fine as well :) I brought the DDM as a back up but I didnt need it.

MTechnik
06-26-11, 22:57
"Phil" here.

This was an awesome class.

Got down there the day before, had dinner, got settled into the Black Bear Inn. Not deluxe, but fully functional - besides spotty cell coverage on AT&T.

Grey Group, who organized the training, had let us know where to be and when, a few days in advance.

Day 1:

All Pistol. In the morning we went over the fundamentals - starting with the 4 rules. It was noted that almost everyone was shooting a glock. Larry put a big focus on accuracy the entire time. We used custom targets with a smaller black area than the usual target. It costs more - but he wants everyone focused on accuracy.

We worked a lot on trigger control - doing the old favorite "put an empty casing on the front sight, gun empty, make the casing not fall" and then working on trigger reset - again with a partner, where they'd rack the slide so you can feel the reset of the trigger and start to build the association. It's a great drill.

We did a walk-back drill before lunch on 12" steel plates that went to 120 yards. I was happy to ring steel at 80 with my 2nd attempt.

In the afternoon we did a modified form of the humbler, which as it does, gave me plenty of feedback. I'll need to run that again and take notes on my performance.

Weather-wise, it was close to 90 and sunny the entire time... a couple of nice breezes, but it could have been better. Sunscreen was important.

Day 2:
Carbine

We started out with a qualifier - prone from 100 yards, sitting from 75, kneeling at the 50, and standing at the 25. 10 shots each time, starting with 1 minute, and knocking off 15 seconds at each stop. It was tough to get 10 shots in 15 seconds at 25 yards with my TR-24r.

We covered sling use and transitions to pistols through the day. Then moving later to moving and transitioning to pistols. Along with this was discussion about when and why you'd do this.

The day was a killer with the heat being 99 when we checked into the hotel at the end of the day - I'm sure it was higher earlier in the day. We all felt the effects the next day.

Personal notes from this day - great training on shooting and moving, posture while doing so. The tr-24r wasn't the fastest optic to have up close - but it didn't hamper me horribly enough to want to ditch it. If I were doing a home defense carbine, I would pick any other optic - but this being a general purpose carbine, I'll leave it on.

Day 3:

EVERYONE was dragging after brutal day 2.

Started out doing barricade work, and transitioning which shoulder we use, some strong hand and weak hand team drills.

Then we started adding movement to the shooting behind barricades, and more team competitions, speeding things up.

We had an early lunch break... then came back, had some intermittent luck with the moving target (which was awesome to shoot at) and lost some time switching ranges. Once we had good movers again, we shot at it with both carbine and pistol.

At this point Larry had us each come up and shoot, and we saw what happens to our trigger control as we tried to shoot that moving target, getting feedback from Larry on each shot. He paused to talk about how shooting steel can induce trigger snatching and we were all showing it then.

Next we shot from the back of a slowly moving truck at a static target. Then at a moving target. It went from hard to do, to REALLY hard to do. (At this point I got some feedback from the person in the truck with me (a very experienced shooter) that the battlecomp DOES have a sharper report to shooters next to you, even in the open. not as bad as an FSC556, but still far less pleasant than a good flash hider.)

A great experience.

I'm coming up a little shy on stuff from day 2 - I think the sun baked it out of me.

Overall notes:

Larry had a TON of team drills to add a little stress beyond just the beep of a timer, and get us to push ourselves, while still maintaining accuracy - the penalty for missing was far worse than taking your time.

The focus on accuracy never relented - and then on day 3, he took down a target and cardboard backer, and showed the rubber sheet that was stapled to, and it had a nice fist-sized hole in the middle that was destroyed. That focus on accuracy really showing what it can do.

Larry didn't shy away from any question, and gave his opinion on it which is invaluable. This by itself was great information I'd never get anywhere else.

I cannot say enough for the class, or the people taking it. My brain is still processing the information I received, and I look forward to using everything learned to continue growing.

Goodies:
At the end of day 1, the LAV brought out a toy. An HK MP7. We all got to shoot it. I only had 10 rounds:

Here he is cooling it off before my turn, he wasn't afraid the water would hurt it at all:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kFYu5zmI0

Here are me using my 10 rounds (I wanted to make sure it was on F/A - why waste a shot on semi?!?!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTzNhlfUp5U

And some of the action from the back of the truck at a moving target:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8w4IT2551U

Heavy Metal
06-26-11, 23:47
Thanks for posting the pics. It was great meeting all of you. Minus the weather, I had a blast and I look forward to seeing you all in a future class.

The weather could have been worse, last year it was. Sorry for no SoCal sea breeze!

Jack Burton
06-28-11, 15:36
The weather could have been worse, last year it was. Sorry for no SoCal sea breeze!

Yeah it could have. I actually thought it would be worse than it was. I did come home with seriously tanned arms though. lol

VA_Dinger
06-28-11, 16:43
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Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

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Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

New photos curtsey of our friend MAP.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/IMG_1331.jpg

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VA_Dinger
06-28-11, 16:45
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/IMG_1416.jpg

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