View Full Version : Is 4140 barrel steel all that bad?
I have a YHM diamond fluted barrel on my carbine and I know it's not mil-spec 4150, it is 4140 steel but it's not a machine gun barrel either tho and is CMV so should still last right? You know one time I called YHM when inquiring about barrels and had asked why they didn't offer mid-length gasport barrels and only carbine or rifle length, the guy said because it's not milspec and we only produce to mil-spec. HaHa well diamond fluting and 4140 among other things YHM produces is not mil-spec, but still some quality there right? Thanks
Outside of comparing material specs there's probably not a practical difference that you'll be able to notice or demonstrate.
The biggest issue you are likely to encounter with that barrel doesn't have anything to do with the composition, but the likelihood that it doesn't have a true 5.56 chamber, even if stamped/advertised as such.
polymorpheous
07-10-11, 18:12
My understanding is that 4140 is NOT chrome-moly vanadium steel.
It's just chrome-moly steel.
Yeah I wonder, though I have put abt 150 rnds of actual 5.56 through it with no visible issues
The 4100 series steels are low alloy carbon steels with chromium and molybdenum for strength and machinability.
4140 steel chemistry; numbers are % mass:
Carbon 0.38 - 0.43
Chromium 0.8 - 1.1
Manganese 0.75 - 1
Molybdenum 0.15 - 0.25
Phosphorus 0.035 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.04 max
Iron Balance
4150 chemistry:
Carbon 0.48 - 0.53
Chromium 0.8 - 1.1
Manganese 0.75 - 1
Molybdenum 0.15 - 0.25
Phosphorus 0.035 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.04 max
Iron Balance
The ONLY difference is 4140 has 0.1% less carbon than 4150. For as often as the average civilian shoots an AR, you have nothing to worry about from a materials standpoint for the life of the firearm, and perhaps your own lifetime.
Noah
polymorpheous
07-10-11, 19:59
The 4100 series steels are low alloy carbon steels with chromium and molybdenum for strength and machinability.
4140 steel chemistry; numbers are % mass:
Carbon 0.38 - 0.43
Chromium 0.8 - 1.1
Manganese 0.75 - 1
Molybdenum 0.15 - 0.25
Phosphorus 0.035 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.04 max
Iron Balance
4150 chemistry:
Carbon 0.48 - 0.53
Chromium 0.8 - 1.1
Manganese 0.75 - 1
Molybdenum 0.15 - 0.25
Phosphorus 0.035 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.04 max
Iron Balance
The ONLY difference is 4140 has 0.1% less carbon than 4150. For as often as the average civilian shoots an AR, you have nothing to worry about from a materials standpoint for the life of the firearm, and perhaps your own lifetime.
Noah
Good info.
So where does the vanadium come into play?
Noah,
For reference, 4150CMV compliant with MIL-B-11595E differs slightly from garden variety 4150, see page 3 in the PDF linked here: http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+%28MIL-B%29/MIL-B-11595E_14406/
4150
C 0.48-0.55
Mn 0.75-1
P 0.04
S 0.04
Si 0.20-0.35
Cr 0.8-1.1
Mo 0.15-0.25
V 0
4150 CMV
C 0.41-0.49
Mn 0.6-0.9
P 0.04
S 0.04
Si 0.20-0.35
Cr 0.8-1.15
Mo 0.3-0.4
V 0.2-0.3
Robb Jensen
07-10-11, 20:40
For your average hobbyist AR owner a 4140 barrel would typically hold up fine. For someone like me who shoots 200-400 rounds a week I would suggest a better barrel.
polymorpheous
07-10-11, 20:46
Noah,
For reference, 4150CMV compliant with MIL-B-11595E differs slightly from garden variety 4150, see page 3 in the PDF linked here: http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+%28MIL-B%29/MIL-B-11595E_14406/
4150
C 0.48-0.55
Mn 0.75-1
P 0.04
S 0.04
Si 0.20-0.35
Cr 0.8-1.1
Mo 0.15-0.25
V 0
4150 CMV
C 0.41-0.49
Mn 0.6-0.9
P 0.04
S 0.04
Si 0.20-0.35
Cr 0.8-1.15
Mo 0.3-0.4
V 0.2-0.3
This clears things up a bit.
Thanks for the info.
Well I've been shooting about 100-150 rnds a week, think I should get a chf barrel? I would think this barrel would still last and be effective for thousands of rounds?
Well I've been shooting about 100-150 rnds a week, think I should get a chf barrel? I would think this barrel would still last and be effective for thousands of rounds?
You already have the barrel. I wouldn't worry about it until you manage to shoot it out. It should last you a while.
Well I've been shooting about 100-150 rnds a week, think I should get a chf barrel? I would think this barrel would still last and be effective for thousands of rounds?
It will.....dont overthink this stuff. Shoot the gun to the barrel is shot out, then worry about replacing it with something better.
If you think about it keep a range log for that AR and when the day comes that groups start to open up by alot add up the rounds fired and let us all know. Then replace your shot out tube with a CHF from a good company and start over. I really am wondering how many rounds it will take.
I was worried that the barrle on my .204 AR would be toast in no time so I kept track for a couple years. When I hit 1K rounds I stoped counting every round, I am closing in on 2K and still shoots sub 1/2 moa.
You have many years of shooting infront of you befor you wreck the tube you have now. Enjoy and shoot the hell out of that thing.
Thanks I plan on it and as they say it'll be good enough for government work!;) but you know sometimes I get caught up in what's requisite for the the military should be for me as well but im not a soldier, tho I think my rig will suffice should I have to defend my life and also provide enjoyment as it has thus far, at least my bolt is a spikes hpt/mpi fail zero coated!;) hell it cost as much as my barrel
I think it would be interesting to assign a monetary value between 4140 and 4150 barrels.
Including the fact that you will most probably have to open up the chamber to proper dimensions, as 4140 barrels have a higher probability of being out of spec.
I would also suggest that most 4140 barreled carbines have a higher tendency to use other substandard parts and also are more likely to be assembled incorrectly.
I imagine the figure would be a couple hundred bucks, not counting time value and frustration if you get a carbine that doesn't work. Of course, this is all based on probabilities and such, so if you have a 4140 barreled carbine that works fine, just shoot it and have fun.
SomeOtherGuy
07-10-11, 22:46
While I think a lot of accurate statements have been made about what is common from the AR assemblers and barrel makers that use 4140 for AR15 barrels, I think it's also useful to answer the OP's literal question: is 4140 steel "all that bad?"
And the answer is simple: no. It's not at all bad. It's not quite as good as the mil-spec steels that meet the TDP for the M4 and most other modern US military small arms, but it's certainly a very good, very strong steel, and it's used in a huge number of firearm barrels for all kinds of (mostly civilian) firearms. It works just fine. It's just not quite as good as the mil-spec steels in wear resistance and high temperature properties.
If you own any rifled firearms (rifle or pistol) with a non-stainless barrel made since the 1960's, other than an AR15 type (or a genuine M249, genuine M60, etc.), chances are virtually certain you have a 4140 steel barrel. Seems OK doesn't it?
Makes sense as I have thousands of rounds through my 10/22 and it's still going. I guess I would have to say overall my barrel is gtg it has relatively thick chrome lining and the diamond flutes should help with heat dissipation. It groups well, Im not really disappointed in performance or function, was just wondering about the 4140 composition in comparison to 4150 as many seem to believe it(4140) supremely inferior from what I've seen
variablebinary
07-10-11, 23:30
The more you shoot, the more things like barrel steel will matter.
Noah,
For reference, 4150CMV compliant with MIL-B-11595E differs slightly from garden variety 4150, see page 3 in the PDF linked here: http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+%28MIL-B%29/MIL-B-11595E_14406/
Palmguy:
Thank you for the clarification, but my intent was to provide general info on generic 4140 vs 4150. 4150 CMV is (to the layman) in the "tool steel" family. There are many variations on the 4150 theme, for example:
4150 CT
4150 CT QTSR
4150 R
4150 RS
4150 CTR (aka RSCT)
4150 CMV
4150 H
IMO, perhaps 4150 CMV would be of interest for a barrel if one owned a select-fire lower, or was shooting 500+ rounds a week, each week, for years. Fact is, the price of non-target-grade MIL-spec AR/M16/M4 barrels is relatively low, and IMO it would make sense for jet80tv to shoot his barrel until accuracy noticeably degrades, THEN buy a 4150 CMV barrel.
. . . sometimes I get caught up in what's requisite for the the military should be for me as well but im not a soldier, tho I think my rig will suffice should I have to defend my life and also provide enjoyment as it has thus far . . .
Jet, I hear ya. Lots of people get wrapped up in "Mil-spec" numbers. To me, it's like owning a car with conventional "T" rated tires good to 105 MPH, then discovering that "V" rated tires good to 120 MPH exist and being concerned that "V" rated tires are "better." The question is, how often does one drive above even 75 MPH, and for how long? Wear out the "T" rated tires, THEN buy the "V" rated tires if the benefit is judged to outweigh the cost.
Noah
Of increasing deviation from the original question...
No, 4140 is not "all that bad", and you are unlikely to notice a material issue. As mentioned, you also already have the barrel and are presumably shooting it and have no immediate problems, so why fix what ain't broke?
However, it IS important to note that the in-spec material is better than 4140, and is not the same as generic 4150 (which also matters, as some makers use the generic). Better enough to run out and change the barrel you're not having any problems with? No. Better enough, at the small price increase, to choose better at the time of initial purchase? Yes.
And finally, as mentioned, for many of us 4140 has become a red flag to other potential problems with the barrel and/or complete gun. Barrel issues tend to be twist (1:9 vs. the more desirable 1:7), chrome lining (many 4140 barrels are not), and chamber (many 4140 barrels are actually .223). Additionally, since 4140 material is less expensive than 4150 CMV, the kinds of makers that tend to use it also tend to cut corners elsewhere. And, as I understand it, 4140 will not pass the military standards for HPT and MPI or would be rejected at such a rate that whatever money the manufacturer was saving would go up in smoke from trashing failed product.
So while I wouldn't opt for a 4140 barrel personally, I think you shoot what you have until it gives you reason to doubt it.
To put some real world experience on it, for almost 2 years the only rifle I owned was my M&P15. I shot the crap out of it every week, and it now has around 16,000 rounds through it - including plenty of rapid fire drills and practical competition shooting stages. At no time have I ever had an issue with the barrel being 4140 steel. While the rifle doesn't see many rounds nowadays, it still shoots well within practical shooting accuracy standards and I trust it entirely. As/when it does finally wear out, I'll replace it with a 4150 barrel due to the points already mentioned in this thread - but not until then.
Of increasing deviation from the original question...
No, 4140 is not "all that bad", and you are unlikely to notice a material issue. As mentioned, you also already have the barrel and are presumably shooting it and have no immediate problems, so why fix what ain't broke?
However, it IS important to note that the in-spec material is better than 4140, and is not the same as generic 4150 (which also matters, as some makers use the generic). Better enough to run out and change the barrel you're not having any problems with? No. Better enough, at the small price increase, to choose better at the time of initial purchase? Yes.
And finally, as mentioned, for many of us 4140 has become a red flag to other potential problems with the barrel and/or complete gun. Barrel issues tend to be twist (1:9 vs. the more desirable 1:7), chrome lining (many 4140 barrels are not), and chamber (many 4140 barrels are actually .223). Additionally, since 4140 material is less expensive than 4150 CMV, the kinds of makers that tend to use it also tend to cut corners elsewhere. And, as I understand it, 4140 will not pass the military standards for HPT and MPI or would be rejected at such a rate that whatever money the manufacturer was saving would go up in smoke from trashing failed product.
So while I wouldn't opt for a 4140 barrel personally, I think you shoot what you have until it gives you reason to doubt it.
I get what you're saying but you're painting with an awfully wide brush there. Let's judge barrels on their individual specifications instead of over-generalizing the use of 4140.
I get what you're saying but you're painting with an awfully wide brush there. Let's judge barrels on their individual specifications instead of over-generalizing the use of 4140.
which is exactly why I started narrow and widened out, because I knew people would object to the "wide brush", not because I think it's wrong to do so in this case. ;)
People on the internet tend to get over-focused on winning the argument or being smarter than everyone else and so the minutiae gets focused on at the expense of the bigger, more important, picture because the minutiae is where they feel they can shine.
Buying a new AR today I can't see any reason to opt for one with a 4140 barrel other than being somehow irrationally tied to wanting to buy a gun in stock in a shop and having severely limited choices because of it.
These barrels are threaded 1/2”-28 to accept our sound suppressors, flash hiders, muzzle brakes, and other accessories. Chambered in 5.56 NATO. Made from chrome-moly vanadium steel , heat treated to RC 25-32, and chrome lined. Fluted models feature YHM’s diamond fluting to improve rigidity and aid in barrel cooling. These barrels feature M4 style feed ramps for reliable function. 14.5" models have pinned and welded muzzle attachments to make the barrel length the legally required 16". I suppose Im wrong they are advertising CMV, this is from their site. Tho no mention of hpt/mpi it must be 4150 If CMV correct? I'm going to call I think
which is exactly why I started narrow and widened out, because I knew people would object to the "wide brush", not because I think it's wrong to do so in this case. ;)
People on the internet tend to get over-focused on winning the argument or being smarter than everyone else and so the minutiae gets focused on at the expense of the bigger, more important, picture because the minutiae is where they feel they can shine.
Buying a new AR today I can't see any reason to opt for one with a 4140 barrel other than being somehow irrationally tied to wanting to buy a gun in stock in a shop and having severely limited choices because of it.
Fair enough and I agree with you.
This is funny I guess, I called YHM since they advertise CMV on the site. A "sales/tech" rep answered so I said " I have one of your barrels it shoots fine and I'm pleased with it" to break the ice you know. Then I asked about the vanadium content, the fact that it contains it they must be 4150 steel barrels correct? Then I said many people are claiming they are 4140. First the guy says yes to the 4150 and wasn't sure what to make of the 4140 claim then he says "we get our barrel blanks from Shaw and finish them,they are what Shaw sends us".
So I assume he means ER Shaw and I call them and explain that I have a barrel and YHM claims Shaw supplies them and then ask about 4150, he says that they supply both 4140 and 4150 cmv to various customers depending on what they specify as they(Shaw) have a small arms manf. division and still no direct answer as to whether they supply YHM with 4150cmv let alone supply them at all.
You see I could live without the hpt/mpi qc process for what I paid for the barrel, however due to what they advertise on the YHM website I believed I was getting a 4150cmv steel barrel so it's kind if discouraging when everyone says they are 4140.Thanks
I think that everyone just assumed that you had already done your research and knew that it was 4140. At least I did. YHM isn't discussed here much and so I dont know off the top of my head what their barrels rare made of.
If they say it's 4150 what causes you to doubt it and assume it's 4140?
Just the way the guy said it oh yeah they are, it was almost like he didn't even know the difference and then to say that "they are what Shaw sends us" doesn't sound like someone who knows for sure, I mean I have a YHM keyhole forged upper, diamond rail handgaurd, QDS flip up sights and gas block and they are great and the barrel is fine but they don't exactly specify what the barrel is, I've got some emails out on the matter if I get any thing concrete back I'll share it
This is funny I guess, I called YHM since they advertise CMV on the site. A "sales/tech" rep answered so I said " I have one of your barrels it shoots fine and I'm pleased with it" to break the ice you know. Then I asked about the vanadium content, the fact that it contains it they must be 4150 steel barrels correct? Then I said many people are claiming they are 4140. First the guy says yes to the 4150 and wasn't sure what to make of the 4140 claim then he says "we get our barrel blanks from Shaw and finish them,they are what Shaw sends us".
So I assume he means ER Shaw and I call them and explain that I have a barrel and YHM claims Shaw supplies them and then ask about 4150, he says that they supply both 4140 and 4150 cmv to various customers depending on what they specify as they(Shaw) have a small arms manf. division and still no direct answer as to whether they supply YHM with 4150cmv let alone supply them at all.
You see I could live without the hpt/mpi qc process for what I paid for the barrel, however due to what they advertise on the YHM website I believed I was getting a 4150cmv steel barrel so it's kind if discouraging when everyone says they are 4140.Thanks
You have to take what any sales rep answering a phone at a firearms manufacturer says with a carton or two of salt...so much so that it's probably not even worth asking anything technical of a sales rep.
I'm going all the way back to your first post. You said "I know it's 4140". how do you know that?
Well I know now, just got an email back stating that they are 4140 steel and are button rifled. Should I raise he'll because they advertise chrome-moly vanadium but actually use 4140 which does not contain vanadium content? At least I know "for sure" now and I suppose for 4140 it's not "all that bad" thanks guys
Well I know now, just got an email back stating that they are 4140 steel and are button rifled. Should I raise he'll because they advertise chrome-moly vanadium but actually use 4140 which does not contain vanadium content? At least I know "for sure" now and I suppose for 4140 it's not "all that bad" thanks guys
I don't know about "raise hell" but I'd like to know and I think I'd like it even more if you asked instead of me.
:D
Here's a thread all the way back from 2009, so I wouldn't expect them to change anything.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=180828
Alpha Sierra
07-11-11, 14:03
There is a lot of talk here about what is "better" without understanding how to define "better".
Better does not mean "the .mil uses it so it is better". Better is "does X outperform Y in a measurable way during their intended application".
So far only a couple of people have alluded to what makes 4150 "better" but outside of the chemical analysis of both alloys I have seen no attempt to quantify anything else.
So....with that said, there are a few things that need to be understood.
Vanadium is alloyed into 4150 CMV to improve hardenability and toughness. That is it. 4150 CMV does provide some slightly better material properties over 4140 CM. The improvements are not earth shattering. Consider these material properties for round bars of both alloys in the same condition (normalized at 1600 F and air colled):
Ultimate tensile strength (ksi) 4140: 148, 4150: 159 (8% more)
Yield tensile strength (ksi): 98, 104 (6% more)
% elongation at break: 17.8, 13.5 (24% reduction, 4150 is less ductile in the same matl condition)
Modulus of elasticity: both are 297 ksi
Shear modulus: both are 116 ksi
Specific heat capacity: (BTU/lb-F): .113, .114 (virtually a tie)
So what did we learn from this little bit of materials science?
As a manufacturing engineering professional, I would say that unless you have an extremely demanding application (and I mean far more demanding than a couple hundred rounds a week), the material properties of 4150 CMV are wasted.
Gents, 4150 CMV is necessary only on firearms that are going to see gigantic quantities of ammunition fired over a very short span of time. Otherwise it makes no difference whatsoever to the durability of your barrel. Your barrel life will be dictated by YOUR demands for accuracy more than anything else.
If you want to be mil spec cool, buy nothing but 4150 CMV barrels. Me? I know the technical differences well enough that as along as the barrel maker is known for his quality in raw materials, heat treatment, and machining, I couldn't care less which of the two he used for my carbine.
So better is still better, right?
Just checking.
;)
So better is still better, right?
Just checking.
;)
Yes. It's just that the reasons that you listed in your earlier post (quoted below) are much more significant as to why a 4150CMV equipped rifle is (probably) better than a 4140 equipped rifle than the marginal gains in UTS/YS with 4150CMV are.
Of increasing deviation from the original question...
No, 4140 is not "all that bad", and you are unlikely to notice a material issue. As mentioned, you also already have the barrel and are presumably shooting it and have no immediate problems, so why fix what ain't broke?
However, it IS important to note that the in-spec material is better than 4140, and is not the same as generic 4150 (which also matters, as some makers use the generic). Better enough to run out and change the barrel you're not having any problems with? No. Better enough, at the small price increase, to choose better at the time of initial purchase? Yes.
And finally, as mentioned, for many of us 4140 has become a red flag to other potential problems with the barrel and/or complete gun. Barrel issues tend to be twist (1:9 vs. the more desirable 1:7), chrome lining (many 4140 barrels are not), and chamber (many 4140 barrels are actually .223). Additionally, since 4140 material is less expensive than 4150 CMV, the kinds of makers that tend to use it also tend to cut corners elsewhere. And, as I understand it, 4140 will not pass the military standards for HPT and MPI or would be rejected at such a rate that whatever money the manufacturer was saving would go up in smoke from trashing failed product.
So while I wouldn't opt for a 4140 barrel personally, I think you shoot what you have until it gives you reason to doubt it.
So better is still better, right?
Yes, but not better than more better.
And it depends on your definition of "better."
Noah ;)
Yes. It's just that the reasons that you listed in your earlier post (quoted below) are much more significant as to why a 4150CMV equipped rifle is (probably) better than a 4140 equipped rifle than the marginal gains in UTS/YS with 4150CMV are.
Agree. A lot.
I a very happy to see this thread. I purchased a ar-15 from a custom shop here. It just happened to come with a er Shaw 4140 barrel. Rifle shoots great. But I was not crazy about the barrel. I am just going to shoot the thing and not worry about it now.
John
Alpha Sierra
07-11-11, 16:57
And, as I understand it, 4140 will not pass the military standards for HPT and MPI or would be rejected at such a rate that whatever money the manufacturer was saving would go up in smoke from trashing failed product.
I highly doubt it.
High pressure test is nothing more than firing a proof cartridge. While there is no requirement for proof firing of commercial arms in the US (unlike the UK and most Euro nations), many manufacturers do and they do it with firearms barreled with 416 CRES or 4140 CM and chambered in cartridges with higher pressures that 5.56 NATO. Those are companies that can ill afford to throw batches of barrels away.
And most rifle makers in Europe (where HPT is mandatory for ALL commercial arms) use DIN steels analogous to SAE 4140 or 416 CRES. They would be broke and gone if their barrels were failing at the proof house left and right.
The same goes for the mag particle inspection after proof firing.
wolf_walker
07-11-11, 18:40
There's a significant portion of people, mostly men, who in the pursuit of a given hobby, be it cars(which I do professionally), or guns (which is a hobby among other things), who want what is as near best as they can afford weather they will ever use it or not(usually not). I for one can't blame a guy for being a little :( over finding out after the fact that his barrel isn't "the best", no more than I can scoff at a guy that spends $10K on an engine build for a weekend non-track driver that finds out the bottom was not balanced as well as it could have been, or there were better rings or rods or pistons or some slicker port work that could have been done, etc, etc.
Most people that aren't made of money or so OCD they can't stand it, live and learn and do better next time. In this case it might be different if the barrel would be worn out in a thousand rounds, which is pretty doable by even a casual shooter over the course of a couple years, but it will not be, lucky for them. The most important thing in this entire thread in my opinion is Rob's post about the barrel material choice being indicative of the quality of other components and the goal and mind set of the manufacturer. I fight this battle at work, every day. Same metal, same people, just shaped different.
I highly doubt it.
High pressure test is nothing more than firing a proof cartridge. While there is no requirement for proof firing of commercial arms in the US (unlike the UK and most Euro nations), many manufacturers do and they do it with firearms barreled with 416 CRES or 4140 CM and chambered in cartridges with higher pressures that 5.56 NATO. Those are companies that can ill afford to throw batches of barrels away.
And most rifle makers in Europe (where HPT is mandatory for ALL commercial arms) use DIN steels analogous to SAE 4140 or 416 CRES. They would be broke and gone if their barrels were failing at the proof house left and right.
The same goes for the mag particle inspection after proof firing.
I would think that would depend on the criteria for MPI, no? Do you know the military criteria? I only know a very small bit about it.
If 4140 will pass, I wonder why we don't see more makers test it.
I would think that would depend on the criteria for MPI, no? Do you know the military criteria? I only know a very small bit about it.
If 4140 will pass, I wonder why we don't see more makers test it.
Partially, yes. It's been awhile since I've looked at the mil spec for MPI that we are held to (parts are relatively thin-walled steel cylindrical bodies), but IIRC it will generally specify a threshold for detected inclusions/cracks that will fail a part. The other side of the equation is of course the HPT.
From a general engineering POV I'd be surprised if 4140 couldn't handle it; given the relatively small differences in the strengths of these materials, I would expect that CMV has enough margin on the HPT that 4140 would probably hold up just fine as well.
On the last point, I think you've sort of already answered your own question on this one previously in this thread, honestly.
I would think that would depend on the criteria for MPI, no? Do you know the military criteria? I only know a very small bit about it.
If 4140 will pass, I wonder why we don't see more makers test it.
Because the makers that use 4140 are into taking shortcuts, and if they shortcut the barrel, they almost certainly will shortcut other things. Like chamber size, staking various components that need staking and testing.
Not completely causal, but we've seen correlational data on this in the past.
Myself, I wouldn't be afraid to shoot a 4140 barreled AR, but I see that as an indicator of additional money risk. I assume that there is an X chance in Y that I'll have to spend Z amount of money to fix stuff to make it right. Which will almost certainly make the price of the shortcut carbine higher than buying a higher quality one to begin with.
Well I know now, just got an email back stating that they are 4140 steel and are button rifled. Should I raise he'll because they advertise chrome-moly vanadium but actually use 4140 which does not contain vanadium content? At least I know "for sure" now and I suppose for 4140 it's not "all that bad" thanks guys
What did they say?
Because the makers that use 4140 are into taking shortcuts, and if they shortcut the barrel, they almost certainly will shortcut other things. Like chamber size, staking various components that need staking and testing.
Not completely causal, but we've seen correlational data on this in the past.
Myself, I wouldn't be afraid to shoot a 4140 barreled AR, but I see that as an indicator of additional money risk. I assume that there is an X chance in Y that I'll have to spend Z amount of money to fix stuff to make it right. Which will almost certainly make the price of the shortcut carbine higher than buying a higher quality one to begin with.
Do you have experience with YHMs complete products (rifles/uppers) to see if the correlation is true in this sense?
crazymoose
07-12-11, 00:30
And, as I understand it, 4140 will not pass the military standards for HPT and MPI or would be rejected at such a rate that whatever money the manufacturer was saving would go up in smoke from trashing failed product.
I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly), all things being equal, the 4140 would actually fare better in the event of overpressure due to the superior ductile strength, at least at a nominal temperature. The key advantages of 4150, again, in my limited understanding, are retained strength at temperature extremes (both high and low), tendency not to fail when "quenched" (hot barrel dropped in snow or water, etc), and a more consistent grain structure resulting from the vanadium, which may well be why they'd do better when magnafluxed.
What did they say?
Do you have experience with YHMs complete products (rifles/uppers) to see if the correlation is true in this sense?
No, I don't.
But I have developed a conservatism based on derivative information, both in other makers who shortcut on cheaper barrels, and my own experience with some YHM products that were less than top of the line.
So, I have two indirect data points that make me leery of this kind of experimentation. Add to the fact that I can get a 4150 steel barreled el cheapo $600 AR from PSA or a genuine Colt 6920 for $981 from Bud's gunshop, I do not see the point in granting benefit of the doubt to YHM.
I've become more conservative as I've become older not because my age closes my mind, it's because I've ****ed up enough times that I realize that conservatism pays off in the long run. The YHM's I've seen appear to be Colt-priced, and I just cannot see the attraction.
Originally I just wanted this carbine to be a "budget build" I started with stripped dpms lower(haha), dpms lpk and built the lower. Then I decided I didn't wanna just put together a lower and slap a complete upper on and call it a "build", I built the whole rifle from pieces, every last part and the more time and money I put into it the better I wanted it to be but I wanted it to look sharp as well and I stumbled across this YHM and their diamond series stuff and thought "cool". Don't get me wrong the handgaurd is great and the phantom 5c2 yeilds no flash @ nite and supposedly they make some of the best sound suppressors around. I should have researched the barrel as thoroughly as i did hpt/mpi BCG's. I shouldn't have bought the barrel with a pinned suppresor as I can only use clamp on gas blocks, I haven't had failures with mine thus far but apparently they suck nxt to FSB. So I'm going to get a DD chf,a BCM chf or a spikes tactical barrel and just treat the YHM one as hard as I can and see if 4140 is "all that bad"!;)
crazymoose
07-12-11, 10:08
You could salvage the barrel by having the existing muzzle device cut off, having a gas block or FSB pinned on, and having another Phantom installed. At $30 or whatever, it's not like you're cutting off a Pig or Triple Tap.
urbankaos04
07-12-11, 18:04
I learned a long time ago to just buy "right" off the bat, which saves you headaches and regrets later down the line. With high quality offerings from BCM, DD and others, why buy anything less?
Wow, three pages on 4140 vs 4150? Didn't we all hash this out about five years ago?
Originally I just wanted this carbine to be a "budget build" I started with stripped dpms lower(haha), dpms lpk and built the lower. Then I decided I didn't wanna just put together a lower and slap a complete upper on and call it a "build", I built the whole rifle from pieces, every last part and the more time and money I put into it the better I wanted it to be but I wanted it to look sharp as well and I stumbled across this YHM and their diamond series stuff and thought "cool". Don't get me wrong the handgaurd is great and the phantom 5c2 yeilds no flash @ nite and supposedly they make some of the best sound suppressors around. I should have researched the barrel as thoroughly as i did hpt/mpi BCG's. I shouldn't have bought the barrel with a pinned suppresor as I can only use clamp on gas blocks, I haven't had failures with mine thus far but apparently they suck nxt to FSB. So I'm going to get a DD chf,a BCM chf or a spikes tactical barrel and just treat the YHM one as hard as I can and see if 4140 is "all that bad"!;)
Seriously, if I had a free or excessively cheap 4140 barrel, and access to a Ned Christiansen's chamber reamer (which I do when I'm CONUS) I wouldn't think twice about putting it together as a cheap/beater/loaner/truck gun.
Shoot it until it wears out.
There's a significant portion of people, mostly men, who in the pursuit of a given hobby, be it cars(which I do professionally), or guns (which is a hobby among other things), who want what is as near best as they can afford weather they will ever use it or not(usually not) . . .
You describe one of the symptoms of acute testosterone poisoning. ;)
Noah
appreciate everyone's input, advice etc. here's a bit of an update on my barrel situation. After a few back and forth emails with other YHM staff and an admission of using 4140 barrel steel by YHM even though there website states vanadium steel, i emailed again requesting a refund based on the deceptive statement that their barrels contain vanadium and i said to the deceptive either intentionally or inadvertently as your company may not know what the difference is!;) Well, I then got an email back from the manager @ YHM explaining to me that they do in fact use 4140 tool steel and that their website incorrectly advertises vanadium content in their barrels, he explained that their webmaster would be changing it shortly. He also sent me a a copy of my original receipt(i purchased the barrel direct from YHM) and a ups label with instructions to return the barrel for a full refund including shipping, I could'nt believe it. I emailed back that I wanted to be sure that he knew the barrel had been used,fired as to avoid an issue with that before I sent it. He responded "yes, based on your emails I realize the barrel was used and that is not part of our normal return policy regarding barrels. However, this is not an issue for me, the issue for me is making our customers happy and satisfied they chose our pruducts and I hope you do not let this one incident turn you away from selecting yhm products in the future". All I can say to that is "exceptional" how many businesses do you come across like that? in my experience not many! so since I purchased the barrel and flassh hider direct from YHM it cost a bit more than a distributor, so basically I have enough for a stripped DD M4 CHF barrel just from the refund!;)
Wow, thats some pretty service on the part of YHM. Glad to see things worked out for you. That said, are you expecting the new barrel make you or the gun a better shooter?
It was never about that, it was about getting what I thought I paid for. I don't expect any part or accessory to enhance my own ability, just practice!;)
It was never about that, it was about getting what I thought I paid for. I don't expect any part or accessory to enhance my own ability, just practice!;)
Cool, its nice to see that YHM did the right thing.
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