The AR15 business world..

[GeorgiaBoy]

This is something I have wanted to post for a long time but never really had the time to really think about how to word it correctly to make the most sense and get the best views and opinions.

As we all know, not all AR's/M4's are created equal. We know there are three basic "tiers" of AR manufacturers. You have Tier 2 and 3, such as Olympic Arms, Del Ton, DPMS, CMMG, RRA, Bushmaster, Stag, ect. Then you have the Tier 1, "quality" manufacturers, such as Colt, DD, BCM, Noveske, and LMT.

The general consensus is that none of the Tier 2 or 3 AR's are worth buying, for serious uses. They are not as well made than Tier 1 AR's (generally) and are not suited for any real uses such as self/home defense, law enforcement use, or PMC/Military use.

With that being said, there are many people out there who, in a very stereotypical sense, are "dirt clod" shooters that wouldn't care a bit whether or not their bolts are MPI and HPT'd, or if their barrels are chrome lined. To them, they just want a AR to show off to their buddies and scare some family members at the next reunion, and maybe, just maybe, they put about 100 or so rounds a year through it. For them, they don't need much more than a Olympic or DPMS. They only need a rifle that can have less than probably 500 or 600 rounds through it in the 10+ years they may own it. They don't run it hard, besides the occasional bump fire or "mag dump" into the nearest pond. These people, in my opinion, are who the Tier 2 and 3 companies really make the most of their money from.

The 8 or so most commonly known low-quality manufacturers employ probably hundreds of employees and therefore support the economy. They are fairly healthy American businesses in a capitalist free market. Sure they don't produce the best AR components, but they do sell, and they do have a customer base. This base differs greatly from the customer base of Tier 1 AR's, who are marketing towards those that want serious use out of their carbines. Those that need to make sure that they get their moneys worth of the products they purchase, and that it will serve them well and be reliable. To them, quality and adherence to mil-specs are nonnegotiable. They pay the (slightly/sometimes) more expensive prices for the quality they require.

Alright, back to the point. The point is, what do those here at M4Carbine.net, the home of spreading the word that not all AR's are created equal and that there IS a difference between manufacturers, think about Tier 2 and 3 manufacturers. Do you think that they should continue to manufacture sub-par components and AR's for those who don't really need the best stuff? Would you rather them all start producing product to the same specs as Colt and the other top tier bunch? Or do you think its to late, and that they should just disappear from the AR world and leave it to the already existing good manufacturers? Or something different?

Think about it - the economy of AR manufacturing is a HUGE business and creates a large amount of jobs. We can't force them to produce better stuff, and as long as people buy it they probably won't change anything. However, if you could become economy dictator for a day, what would you do if you could?

[Dos Cylindros]

The first thing you sould probably do is realize that you have your "Tiers" backwards. DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske and the like are Tier 1, not Tier 3. Otherwise, I say people should buy what they want, but realize that you do pay for what you get in this life.

[GeorgiaBoy]

The first thing you sould probably do is realize that you have your "Tiers" backwards. DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske and the like are Tier 1, not Tier 3.

Meh, I couldn't really remember which way it went. I've only heard the tier numbering a few times. It doesn't really matter though, the point is still the same.

[PrarieDog]

The lower tiered companies have a purpose outside of employing people. Not everyone one wants a fighting gun. Many others are into just plinking and varminting. If the tier one manufacturers would venture into more sporter guns that still reatined the quality of their regular guns then I think they could be competitive.

On another note. Not everyone can afford a noveske, Colt or what ever. The more guns we get into peoples hands the harder it is to enact legislation against these types of rifles and the more people we get that are progun. With that in mind I think that the teir 2 & 3 serve their purpose but there are a few that could stand to go out of business due to the junk they produce.

[AZ-Renegade]

From what I have seen on this forum, those who blast makers like Bushmaster, Olympic Arms and DPMS don't do it because they make a sub-standard product; but for when they make a sub-standard product and pass it off as suitable for serious use.

I don't want any of these companies to go under, merely improve their products to match their marketing practices or be honest about their capabilities.

[HES]

From what I have seen on this forum, those who blast makers like Bushmaster, Olympic Arms and DPMS don't do it because they make a sub-standard product; but for when they make a sub-standard product and pass it off as suitable for serious use.
This. False advertising pisses me off. So what do I want them and their dealers to do? Well one thing would be to stop lying about their quality and competency of their builds. Another idea is to do those little things that could make the difference and would add another $100 to the price of the weapons. As a business owner I cannot bring myself to misrepresent the products and services that I have to offer. I cannot bring myself to offer "almost good enough". I cant do these things because A) I have to look at myself in the mirror and B) my customers would lynch me.

[BCmJUnKie]

Look at it like this, say you start a car company. You decide you want to gear your new vehicles to the working class and cut corners to make it really affordable.

You import parts from "low tier" manufacturers to keep cost down and after a year you have to recall thousands of your vehicles.

My point is, people that manufacture SHIT weed themselves out. The lack of pride that goes into your work shows and people might buy once...but they wont come back.

The same goes for any business, restauraunts, handyman, contractors etc.
The people that I see shooting dirt every weekend at the range have sub par weapons that consistently break down

[skyugo]

there's room in the expanding AR market for everyone it seems...
I guess the thing that kills a lot of the regulars here is when people spend 1000 bucks on a bushmaster or something and 1050 would have gotten them a colt.

i'm currently considering one of those palmetto state kits (~500 bucks), as i'm a broke-ass college student (again...) I'm also perhaps a bit more gifted on the mechanical side of things than some users, so i'm comfortable tearing into my rifle as needed. I'm also primarily a handgun shooter and consider my glock 19 my go-to weapon for my current defensive needs. So my point basically is that even some of the more "educated" users may wish to opt for some of the lower end stuff for certain uses.

[120mm]

there's room in the expanding AR market for everyone it seems...
I guess the thing that kills a lot of the regulars here is when people spend 1000 bucks on a bushmaster or something and 1050 would have gotten them a colt.

i'm currently considering one of those palmetto state kits (~500 bucks), as i'm a broke-ass college student (again...) I'm also perhaps a bit more gifted on the mechanical side of things than some users, so i'm comfortable tearing into my rifle as needed. I'm also primarily a handgun shooter and consider my glock 19 my go-to weapon for my current defensive needs. So my point basically is that even some of the more "educated" users may wish to opt for some of the lower end stuff for certain uses.

Do you mind if I cut'n'paste this response every time I respond to a "good enough" thread?

I have nothing against light use dirt clod shooting hobby guns. Not a single thing.

But when substandard manufacturers sell them for $1000, and then people come on here and tell me that $50 difference between their Stag, RRA, Bushmaster, whatever is necessary for people "who can't afford top tier guns, it kind of makes my blood boil.

If you want to shoot a cheap gun, buy a PSA kit for $550 and shoot it. Heck, from the PSA parts I am currently experimenting with, it will probably be a good gun. Don't piss on my head and tell me its raining with lower quality guns at high quality gun prices.

BTW, I am seriously considering buying one of those PSA kits, wringing it out to see exactly how good/bad it really is, and then keeping it as a loaner/beater gun. With the current specials, provided you purchase the stripped lower and kit separately, you're talking $550 for a complete carbine, ready to shoot. And they "appear" to adhere to the important bits of the TDP.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Bear in mind that some LE agencies and PMCs have sub-par weapons forced upon them from their frugal ignorant superiors. My agency bought Bushmasters for patrol operations :( and few of my friends who have contracted in the sandbox had to carry Bushmasters.

As others have stated the price difference is not that great and sub-par products are peddled as GTG. It offends me more than anything.

[skyugo]

Do you mind if I cut'n'paste this response every time I respond to a "good enough" thread?

I have nothing against light use dirt clod shooting hobby guns. Not a single thing.

But when substandard manufacturers sell them for $1000, and then people come on here and tell me that $50 difference between their Stag, RRA, Bushmaster, whatever is necessary for people "who can't afford top tier guns, it kind of makes my blood boil.

If you want to shoot a cheap gun, buy a PSA kit for $550 and shoot it. Heck, from the PSA parts I am currently experimenting with, it will probably be a good gun. Don't piss on my head and tell me its raining with lower quality guns at high quality gun prices.

BTW, I am seriously considering buying one of those PSA kits, wringing it out to see exactly how good/bad it really is, and then keeping it as a loaner/beater gun. With the current specials, provided you purchase the stripped lower and kit separately, you're talking $550 for a complete carbine, ready to shoot. And they "appear" to adhere to the important bits of the TDP.

by all means:D

those PSA's seem good.. i mean probably not great, but they are 1 in 7 twist, and they say they stake their carrier...

I think a lot of it's impulse buys... combined with the counter guy saying it's "mil-spec" and "made by the same people that make colt parts"

ah well, you can lead a horse to water...

[120mm]

by all means:D

those PSA's seem good.. i mean probably not great, but they are 1 in 7 twist, and they say they stake their carrier...

I think a lot of it's impulse buys... combined with the counter guy saying it's "mil-spec" and "made by the same people that make colt parts"

ah well, you can lead a horse to water...

I bought one of their premium carriers and it was well-staked. The lower kit my partner got looked great as well.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/269110_1983362398180_1666843362_2024199_7906871_n.jpg
I'd think they're probably a good gun for the price.

$84 for the lower kit, including buffer tube and buttstock
$49 for the stripped lower
$399 for a complete 4150 14.5 in. pinned upper kit
$50 for a Magpul BUIS

$15 shipping for the upper and $7 shipping for the stripped lower (shipped separately, of course, to avoid the 11% tax.)

That's $597 for a shooter.

[SteyrAUG]

Do you think that they should continue to manufacture sub-par components and AR's for those who don't really need the best stuff? Would you rather them all start producing product to the same specs as Colt and the other top tier bunch? Or do you think its to late, and that they should just disappear from the AR world and leave it to the already existing good manufacturers? Or something different?


Doesn't matter what we think, they will do what they do. I will simply continue to be thankful for those manufacturers who haven't changed over to mass producing crap.

Century Arms will always be in business and offering crap, while companies like Steyr have to cease production of domestic AUG A3s due to limited demand.

Those "in the know" will buy the better guns for their needs. And if the guys you described suddenly began buying to good stuff in volume that company might start cutting corners to keep up with demand. Just look what happened to Kimber when they got popular.

[SteyrAUG]

Bear in mind that some LE agencies and PMCs have sub-par weapons forced upon them from their frugal ignorant superiors. My agency bought Bushmasters for patrol operations :( and few of my friends who have contracted in the sandbox had to carry Bushmasters.

As others have stated the price difference is not that great and sub-par products are peddled as GTG. It offends me more than anything.

This. There is a local agency that officially adopted the Oly Plinker. It is the only "approved" rifle for their officers.