View Full Version : Is ~0.5 MOA the peak of Semi-Auto Precision
After much reading/research and personal testing it seems i've flatlined and am wondering if this is it...
I am not a bench rest shooter and am doing everything in these following conditions.
Prone
Bi-Pod
Mono-Pod
Factory Ammo (consistent with BH 77gr SMK and 55gr Hornady V-Max)
For all practical purposes I am excited to be consistent more than anything else, I know by how much my shots will vary exactly. I find this to be awesome.
However, as any other individual, I want more...
I've done everything from 6+ different types of ammo, shooting both eyes open, etc.... different days, conditions, etc.... but as mentioned I've flatlined. The same results whether 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups or shooting a dot drill.
**Obviously i've had a few better groups and many far worse groups but this is the average**
From research, it seems this is just about it under these conditions.
Re-loading is next but I am curious if I can truly go no further...
Thanks for reading.
What are you trying to achieve?
If you can shoot a consistent half MOA at 100 yards for groups, dot drills, etc, I think it's time to move on to more challenging shooting (different positions, longer ranges), not a more accurate gun or ladder testing handloads.
What are the accuracy standards that factory match ammo must meet?
Typically it is 0.5-0.75 MOA; thus, no matter how good your rifle or your shooting ability, you will never be able to get your 10 rd groups better than the inherent accuracy potential of the ammunition...
What are the accuracy standards that factory match ammo must meet?
Typically it is 0.5-0.75 MOA; thus, no matter how good your rifle or your shooting ability, you will never be able to get your 10 rd groups better than the inherent accuracy potential of the ammunition...
This.
If you're getting close to 0.5 MOA with bipod and monopod using factory ammo that's pretty darn good. I wish I could do that.
You'll notice that some mfr's lots are more consistent compared to others. Keeping a thorough log of environmental conditions and lot #s of the more consistent factory ammo will help. Other that that, you'll have to start reloading to see improvements.
What are the accuracy standards that factory match ammo must meet?
Typically it is 0.5-0.75 MOA; thus, no matter how good your rifle or your shooting ability, you will never be able to get your 10 rd groups better than the inherent accuracy potential of the ammunition...
^^^^
this
Not trying to turn this into something it's not; I may have also spoke prematurely.
I will be the first to say I can use more practice and experience.
With that said I built a rifle for this sole purpose and maybe I've fallen victim to the "i shooting dime's all day", etc... talk and and am chasing a ghost because i've fallen victim to such talk...
Just wondering if I am realizing what it actually reasonable/truth when it comes to these things (ie: above statement) from actual experience or if I am lacking something, although I am in no rush to change parts, etc... and if there is something lacking I would wager it's my ability.
With that said, I built something and would like to see it reach it's full potential and feel i've hit a wall...
Hope this makes sense.
put out at least 3 wind flags and learn to read them...a 45x scope will help too.
www.benchrest.com is the place to go if you want to shrink groups...there are a couple guys over ther 'trying' to build custom 6ppc AR's that can keep up with the turn bolts.
Reloading could help with benchrest bullets & using lapua brass but what is the point?? To get every last drop, you may have to seat the bullet close to the lands which turns your semi into a single shot most of the time since they wont fit the mag.
I would be tickled with .5...my les baer super varmint would do better than 1/2" with my reloads but it was a boat anchor and sold it to build a 12.5" sbr that I can only get 1moa out of no matter what I do.
Point is, there has not been a critter that could tell the difference between the two...dead is dead.
I would avoid getting into the real benchrest game...shooting paper can drive you bonkers.
Alpha Sierra
07-11-11, 17:28
It is my opinion that you should stop wasting time and money chasing ever smaller groups at 100 yards and start stretching your rifle and yourself to ever farther distances as much as you can.
Learn how to read the wind and the actual (not predicted) behavior of your load at any distance within its max effective range. That is where you make the money.
Thanks for the responses, they are appreciated.
After giving the replies some thought. I guess you can say I got so caught up in an idea that I missed seeing things for what they truly are...
I know for sure I am not taking the next step to tighter groups as that was never my intention to begin with.
I've also had so much fun building, learning, experimenting during this build that it's sad to feel that i've reached an end of sorts...
Obviously I need to step out of my comfort zone and try longer distances, etc...
Makes me sad to realize above is true as well as everything posted, time to move on and figure some more things out.
**I know everything above probably sounds like a gay :suicide2: coming out speech or maybe I have too much time on my hands but forgive me and thanks**
In August 2003 after returning from the beginning of Iraqi Freedom I shot a 30-round match at the National Matches at Camp Perry with an iron-sighted M16:
10 shots in 10 minutes, standing at 200 yards;
10 shots from standing to prone, two shots followed by a magazine change and eight shots in 70 seconds;
10 shots prone in ten minutes at 600 yards.
No sighters, no zero shots, no freebies -- every shot for record and score.
I only shot a 97.67% possible-- a 99 standing; a 95 at 300 (I believe the group was slightly high so I shot five 9s); and 99 at 600.
That earned 20th in The President's Match for a President's Hundred tab.
It took me four years to go from combat shooting to a fair level of bullseye expertise, shot on weekends and on leave with my own handloads -- which made me a better combat shooter.
Define what your goal and purpose is for having and using a weapon. It can be a toy or hobby instrument with a secondary home defense purpose. If you want to make little bitty groups you should buy a benchrest rifle. If it's a work tool then develop a mastery for it.
Most any jackass can buy a gun. It takes work to be a recognized decent shooter.
I've done everything from 6+ different types of ammo, shooting both eyes open, etc.... different days, conditions, etc.... but as mentioned I've flatlined. The same results whether 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups or shooting a dot drill.
**Obviously i've had a few better groups and many far worse groups but this is the average**
As you are now consistently shooting 0.5MOA 5shot and 10shot groups, what do you think was the biggest factor you changed from this thread; FDE AR Build. My first. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78499) where you were getting MOA+ 10shot groups and 0.5MOA+ 5 shot groups?
Like the guys here said, I think shooting 100yd groups is about testing the accuracy potential for a setup. Once you are getting decent groups it is then about shooting at long(er) ranges and/or smaller targets for time, and from different positions. I have always found shooting 100yd groups boring, but shooting a competition at 200, 300, 400 and beyond is exciting and challenging.
I remember shooting a couple of ridiculously small groups at 100 and 200 yards on a Friday as I zeroed my rifle before a Saturday morning match, but being much more pumped that I shot the best score in my string at the match, and was the only one in my string to bust the bonus target, a clay bird at 200yds, while shooting from various positions and against the clock.
Cameron
I don't emphasize groups at 100 other than to test repeatability of the rifle, the load, and me. If I can consistently group 1 moa or less, my technique and equipment work well enough to meet my main goal of hitting a 10 X 17 steel target out to 800-1000. That is all I really care about.
As stated earlier, define your objectives and the answers become more apparent.
Here is my objective at 1000 yards. That "group" works for me.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/DWood13/1000ydtarget-1.jpg
As you are now consistently shooting 0.5MOA 5shot and 10shot groups, what do you think was the biggest factor you changed from this thread; FDE AR Build. My first. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78499) where you were getting MOA+ 10shot groups and 0.5MOA+ 5 shot groups?
Like the guys here said, I think shooting 100yd groups is about testing the accuracy potential for a setup. Once you are getting decent groups it is then about shooting at long(er) ranges and/or smaller targets for time, and from different positions. I have always found shooting 100yd groups boring, but shooting a competition at 200, 300, 400 and beyond is exciting and challenging.
I remember shooting a couple of ridiculously small groups at 100 and 200 yards on a Friday as I zeroed my rifle before a Saturday morning match, but being much more pumped that I shot the best score in my string at the match, and was the only one in my string to bust the bonus target, a clay bird at 200yds, while shooting from various positions and against the clock.
Cameron
The major changes in my groups/shooting came from the following:
Shooting with both eyes open
actually staring down my point of impact until it it (i used to close my eyes, look away, flinch or blink)
keeping steady and holding the trigger back until the shot hit it's mark
breathing
Actually relaxing. Shot's would open up as I get too tense.
shooting thousands of rounds
Repeating everything the same such as head placement, etc...
Probably some luck
As mentioned, I can use more practice and experience at the 100 yard mark but I now understand what to do and it can be done more than once under the right conditions unlike before. Although I've had a few days where I almost destroyed the rifle and quit.:suicide2:
Thanks to this thread I've also noticed how close minded i've been when it comes to what I can do and whats out there as well as other challenges. In my immediate area, 100 yards is all I "know" of, so I made that my goal. Longer ranges and other types of shooting and hunting would be awesome, i just need to find such things/places in my area.
I don't emphasize groups at 100 other than to test repeatability of the rifle, the load, and me. If I can consistently group 1 moa or less, my technique and equipment work well enough to meet my main goal of hitting a 10 X 17 steel target out to 800-1000. That is all I really care about.
As stated earlier, define your objectives and the answers become more apparent.
Here is my objective at 1000 yards. That "group" works for me.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/DWood13/1000ydtarget-1.jpg
Thanks for posting what are you using exactly to accomplish this? Sounds real interesting.
NorthDakota
07-21-11, 13:19
Slight tangent to illustrate potential:
http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_Varminter.htm
Not sure if 1/4 MOA is necessary but sure fun trying:)
Slight tangent to illustrate potential:
http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_Varminter.htm
Not sure if 1/4 MOA is necessary but sure fun trying:)
I think most here are a little more sophisticated that to accept a the gun writer's awe inspired gushing about 1/4" 3 shot groups.
I once shot a 3 shot group that look very similar to the authors in the article, at 100yds, off hand with an EOTech on a 10.5" LMT chrome lined barrel. I just couldn't ever duplicate the group... Does that mean my LMT SBR is a 1/4MOA carbine??
Cameron
Thanks for posting what are you using exactly to accomplish this? Sounds real interesting.
That was a GAP custom build on a Surgeon action with a Rock 5R 24" barrel; sold long ago to an LE sniper. My new game is an LMT MWS.
Speaking of GAP, Frank (AKA Lowlight on SH) claimed he shot a .25 moa group the day George gave him the rifle. That rifle is a GAP-10.
The rifles are capable of doing it...
My take on it is this, when it comes to precision autos. Anything over .5moa at one 100yards, and you better figure out what is the problem is. Either the rifle, the ammo, yourself, or some combination of that.
.25moa is the holy grail, that is what everyone wants, but few can achieve.
Still shooting at real distance is far more interesting and fun.
Alaskapopo
07-31-11, 16:52
My take on it is this, when it comes to precision autos. Anything over .5moa at one 100yards, and you better figure out what is the problem is. Either the rifle, the ammo, yourself, or some combination of that.
.25moa is the holy grail, that is what everyone wants, but few can achieve.
Still shooting at real distance is far more interesting and fun.
Sorry but that is unrealsistic. For a semi auto precision rifle to achieve .5 moa is remarkable its not the standard. .75 is more reasonable to expect. For boltguns its a bit better. But to say any group over .5 moa is wrong is stupid.
Pat
Littlelebowski
07-31-11, 17:27
Pat said it for me. Of course, I guess one could always cherry pick three shot groups instead of an average of five and ten shot groups.....
[QUOTE=Artos;1044934]put out at least 3 wind flags and learn to read them...a 45x scope will help too.
www.benchrest.com is the place to go if you want to shrink groups...there are a couple guys over ther 'trying' to build custom 6ppc AR's that can keep up with the turn bolts.
Reloading could help with benchrest bullets & using lapua brass but what is the point?? To get every last drop, you may have to seat the bullet close to the lands which turns your semi into a single shot most of the time since they wont fit the mag.
I agree with Artos
Windflags
Neck sizing
custom bullets
Front rest and rear bag
etc etc etc
How good you and your rifle can get UNKNOWN
but you will learn a lot about you and your rifle
A half inch without wind flags or rest is very impressive
I am currently working with a AR trying to do the same thing as you. I want to see if it can keep up with a good bolt gun.
Like everyone has said..move on. If you want tighter groups for self-confidence, then handload...you will always be able to get better groups than factory, but it takes time and patience and a lot of trial and error. What really would be the point though if you are already at a price point you can live with at .5 MOA factory rounds? If you are doing long range small varmint hunting I could see some more fine tuning. Other than that huge waste of your time. I wish my rig would hit a consistent .5 MOA, but MOA is all I need, if that.
My take on it is this, when it comes to precision autos. Anything over .5moa at one 100yards, and you better figure out what is the problem is. Either the rifle, the ammo, yourself, or some combination of that.
.25moa is the holy grail, that is what everyone wants, but few can achieve.
Still shooting at real distance is far more interesting and fun.
You are correct 1/4 group at 100 yards is the holy grail. But get real if you can shoot something around 1/2 that's very good for a Benchrest gun and an AR would be just wonderful.
Here are the results of the St Louis match last month to give you an idea what these custom made guns do in the real world. Keep in mind these folks can shoot and are experts using wind flags custom bullets and lots of practice.
http://nbrsa.org/matchreports/2011/20110723_BRRifleClubofSTL.pdf
I am currently working with a AR with the intention of see how far I can go with it. Custom bullets match primers Lapua brass. I have a private 100 yard range benchrest rest wind flags. And on a normal afternoon it will just stay under .5 inch with some groups going to .250 but most are around .5. I have a single shot benchrest gun in 223 and it can hold .250 if I can call the wind and mirage.
How far can I go with this will depend on time and money but the AR will always be less accurate then a bolt gun till someone figures out how to shoot tight neck chambers. Or find a way to work around this problem with the chamber. IMO
gunfighter48
09-05-11, 20:51
My last AR was a Olympic Arms that I installed a 20" heavy barrel on (.96 in if memory is correct), free floated hand guard, smoothed out trigger. With hand loaded ammo, tailored to this rifle, I could get 5 shot groups (slow fire) down to 5/8" at 100 yrds, on occasion. But more usual groups were around 3/4". I considered that to be an excellent group size for that rifles at the time. I often out shot other guys on the firing line and they couldn't understand how a Oly Arms rifle could shoot that good. What they didn't understand was that it took two years of tinkering with bullet weights, types, and various powders to get to that point.
Kill By Number
09-06-11, 06:55
I would like to see pictures of three of the .5" 10 shot factory ammo groups. I would also then love to see what equipment you used in your builds. I think that is excellent accuracy for a non-benchrest AR with factory loads. And anyone talking about .5" being the max acceptable, please post some of your 10 shot groups and equipment pics too. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone but here is a lot of talk about group sizes online and very few pictures of said groups.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.