Good glass for noob to long range?

[TonyTacoma]

Hey guys,

I've decided to keep my AR with my CFH barrel and through a nice piece of glass on it and see what it can do rather than buying a new gun all together like I had some visions of doing. I love my current set-up but it is definitively a battle rifle and I'll probably end building a more precision upper for it in the future, something very reminiscent of an MK12.

So I've never used any nice scopes, or crappy ones for that matter. I've had a ton of time using handguns and rifles with irons and RD's. I'm wanting to get a good scope that will last me and be accurate and durable, I'm anticipating a price of around 1k but I'm open to most suggestions. As I said I want a good optic that can take, somewhat of a beating, not to much, and also be accurate solid and hopefully somewhat easy to use. Like I said I really don't have any experience with glass like this so any recommendations would be great, down to MOA dots/sizes, model #'s .. whatever

Thanks again guys!

[nimdabew]

Ngihtforce 2.5-10x32 with a mil-dot. It is slightly more than a grand though at just shy of 1300 though. Night force glass is really good for that price point.

If you want cheaper, the vortex PST line is under a grand and is reported as decent glass, though reviews of their tubes have been similar to feeling light for the size of scopes and fragile.

I am going to start saving for a NF 2.5-10x32 FWIW

[ALCOAR]

.......

[ccoker]

What is your budget?
What is the absolute max you are willing to spend?

[Gutshot John]

Your stated needs/objective could stand a bit of fleshing out, in your own mind if nothing else. Given what you've said I'd consider a fixed power scope, though it may or may not be suitable, it's worth thinking about.

You don't seem to have a need for variable power and you can get a lot more scope for the money with a fixed. It's also worth noting that with a variable, unless your scope is FFP, your reticle probably won't be functional except at maximum power anyway.

Three brands I'd look at in the >=$1K range would be IOR/Valdada, Pride Fowler and Vortex.

Variable: Your options are limited, IMO I'd stick with Vortex and Pride Fowler as they are the only decent quality scopes I can think of that offer FFP in your price range.

Fixed: If you like the idea of a fixed than you have a lot more options in your price range. IOR/Valdada makes superb glass. Fixed powers also have a reputation for being a bit more durable.

Pride Fowler is one of the best deals on the market if you like their "Christmas tree" reticle. The latter especially can be had for significantly less than your stated price and since you adjust on the reticle rather than the turrets they are very quick. It's not the best scope for low-light but it is functional, but since you didn't mention that as a need I wouldn't worry too much about it. They are also extremely well built.

[Alex V]

+1 on the NF 2.5-10x32

You will be able to find them in the EE on this site often enough. Just keep an eye out. I did and could not be happier.

This was my first scope ever but I am well familiar with quality glass from the photography aspect of it. NF really did a great job on this scope, very bright, very clear and crisp image. When you consider high end camera lenses that give you similar zoom ranges you will spend twice as much on the camera lens, so the NF scope is well worth the price of admition.

As for reliability, I'm not a operator, so I don't beat the piss out of it but I did drop the whole rifle on the floor in my house. The scope did take a good hit and it scared the poop out of me. Had I dropped a camera lens like that it would be in pieces lol. The bamboo floor has some serious indentations in it, the scope and LaRue mount were still zero'ed exactly where they were prior to the fall.

Simply awesome!

[Gutshot John]

Nightforce makes great optics, no doubt about it but at 30% more money, can someone quantify what it does better than others?

I understand the tendency to recommend the choice you've already made but I don't think we do the OP any favors by pretending that it's the only good option, especially when there is always a trade off involved.

[GIJew766]

Nightforce makes great optics, no doubt about it but at 30% more money, can someone quantify what it does better than others?

I understand the tendency to recommend the choice you've already made but I don't think we do the OP any favors by pretending that it's the only good option, especially when there is always a trade off involved.

Vortex scopes are great, but I really love the Velocity reticles of the NightForce glass.


H

[Gutshot John]

Vortex scopes are great, but I really love the Velocity reticles of the NightForce glass.
H

Lots of optics have an equivalent Xmas Tree reticles. Pride Fowler and Horus among them.

They also have significant downsides especially when being used in low-light as they are fairly cluttered.

So what makes the NF $300 more than the OP's stated budget and otherwise better than other velocity reticles available especially for significantly less money? This is especially true without FFP to make that reticle functional at anything other than 10x. What does that 2.5-10x variability buy you if you still have to dial in your dope and can't use the reticle at 2.5-9x?

I own and use both. I prefer mil-dot.

[GIJew766]

Lots of optics have an equivalent Xmas Tree reticles. Pride Fowler and Horus among them.

They also have significant downsides especially when being used in low-light as they are fairly cluttered.

So what makes the NF $300 more than the OP's stated budget and otherwise better than other velocity reticles available especially for significantly less money? This is especially true without FFP to make that reticle functional at anything other than 10x. What does that 2.5-10x variability buy you if you still have to dial in your dope and can't use the reticle at 2.5-9x?

I own and use both. I prefer mil-dot.

Odd, I don't find them that cluttered. Granted, in comparison to a Mil-dot scope, I can see how, but considering I was issued an ACOG on my M4, I'm used to the velocity type reticles and find I can make my shots a little quicker. I suppose it comes down to what the user likes.

The H58 reticle is also pretty easy to shoot well with. At least in the short time I've spent with them.

H

[Gutshot John]

Odd, I don't find them that cluttered. Granted, in comparison to a Mil-dot scope, I can see how, but considering I was issued an ACOG on my M4, I'm used to the velocity type reticles and find I can make my shots a little quicker. I suppose it comes down to what the user likes.

The H58 reticle is also pretty easy to shoot well with. At least in the short time I've spent with them.

H


The ACOG reticle isn't a velocity reticle and there is no comparison to the NF velocity reticles. I've used all three. The point of a velocity reticle is to limit the need to spin turrets etc.

There are no wind holds, it doesn't look like a Xmas tree and isn't even a ranging scope like an ACOG which in general is far simpler to use. Most significantly is that the ACOG is a fixed power optic which is what I was getting to. What point does the 2.5-10x serve if you can only use the reticle at 10x?

[GIJew766]

I've used the ACOG fairly well as a "substitute velocity reticle." I don't need specific hash marks along the stadia of the BDC reticle to make a SWAG for hold at the distances I'd engaged targets at. Just because it lakes specific hold marks doesn't mean it isn't capable of filling in the role as a fixed magnification substitute for a "true" velocity reticle.

Granted, a SWAG isn't the best thing you want to use when the chips are down. But if it works, it works.

As for only being able to use the velocity reticle at 10x, it does kind of suck, but if you use their site, it allows you to find the holds at different magnifications. Or at least it used to. Not sure if it still does.

H

[Gutshot John]

I've used the ACOG fairly well as a "substitute velocity reticle." I don't need specific hash marks along the stadia of the BDC reticle to make a SWAG for hold at the distances I'd engaged targets at. Just because it lakes specific hold marks doesn't mean it isn't capable of filling in the role as a fixed magnification substitute for a "true" velocity reticle.

Granted, a SWAG isn't the best thing you want to use when the chips are down. But if it works, it works.

H

It's not about the accuracy of the stadia lines, it's about the cluttered sight picture. All those wind holds, all those range holds, clutter the sight image. Counting them, determining where you are holding, and then having to put that hold on top of an aiming point isn't nearly as easy as it is on an ACOG where you can just hold out in space.

One more time though, what does the $1400 NF 2.5-10x (SFP) velocity reticle do that another velocity reticle doesn't? Especially when the NF velocity reticle is only functional at 10x. More to the point, the fixed power eliminates the need for a pricey FFP scope.

[GIJew766]

In terms of what does NightForce do that other, cheaper scopes don't?

For one, I can send my scope back to them to have a different reticle put in at any time. If I want to play around with a new reticle, I don't need to buy a new scope. Also, they do a 60 or so point check on the scope to ensure it is in proper working order. Nice to be able to do that.

Beyond that, the scope is built to tolerate just about anything I can throw at it, even if I was still in the Fleet. I've had a Leupold scope shit the bed on me while hunting during the first year I owned it. Granted, they replaced it, but I won't be taking it on a five day stalk again any time soon.

Finally, for an optic of comparable magnification and tube size, it is the lightest on the market aside from the Vortex. If this "proves" that the Vortex is a better scope to you, congrats. Love my Viper, but the NF is worth the extra coin for the services they offer.

H

[Gutshot John]

In terms of what does NightForce do that other, cheaper scopes don't?

For one, I can send my scope back to them to have a different reticle put in at any time. If I want to play around with a new reticle, I don't need to buy a new scope. Also, they do a 60 or so point check on the scope to ensure it is in proper working order. Nice to be able to do that.

Beyond that, the scope is built to tolerate just about anything I can throw at it, even if I was still in the Fleet. I've had a Leupold scope shit the bed on me while hunting during the first year I owned it. Granted, they replaced it, but I won't be taking it on a five day stalk again any time soon.

Finally, for an optic of comparable magnification and tube size, it is the lightest on the market aside from the Vortex. If this "proves" that the Vortex is a better scope to you, congrats. Love my Viper, but the NF is worth the extra coin for the services they offer.

H

I'm sorry but that's a bit of a straw man, I never said Vortex was a better scope, in fact I said NF makes a fine scope. I simply tried to keep things within the OP's stated price range and listen to his requirements rather than mindlessly spilling "Buy what I bought and you'll be super cool like me." Given your stated experience level, and the OP's price range there have to be other scopes that you can recommend. I try and give a variety of options from high-end to low-end.

Simply put your NF is an SFP, meaning that your fancy reticle is only good at 10x. Why not just get a fixed 10x? You'll get a better scope for less money. You say that NF will swap out your reticle for free anytime you want? Really that would be the first I've heard of that but Ill take your word for it. I tend to buy one reticle and stick with it but YMMV.

Pride Fowler is owned by Snipers, recommended to me by snipers and when I had a minor problem with a turret, I sent it back (on their dime) and got it fixed two years after I bought the scope, no questions asked.

Leupold would be my third choice between the optics I mentioned but as for having a sample of one "shit the bed" and extrapolating that to every Leupold out there is flawed though I can appreciate that once bitten twice shy though many have taken Leupold out into the field for heavier use and reported no problems. Does that mean that NF has never failed in the field? I'm gonna say I doubt it but if I had to trust my life to a scope Leupold, NF still rank as second rate compared to S&B and others.

Does that mean that I think NF sucks? Nope but nor is it the end-all be-all of scopes. For the price of an NF FFP scope the Premier reticle is a better optic, never mind that it's a much better low-light/night scope.

[GIJew766]

Wasn't a matter of saying buy what I bought because it's wicked cool awesome sauce. It was a matter of making a recommendation based on my own experience. Yes, the reticle is set up to be spot on for the 10x setting only. Does that mean the reticle is useless on other settings? Of course not. The holds are just different. Not the end of the world. Sure a Mil-dot scope is easier for someone with proper training, but the man specifically stated he's a rookie and my assumption was that he would most likely not be able to get the most out of the Mil-dots.

I'm also not saying NF is the best shit out there. Saying it's worth the money to me. So is Vortex, dollar for dollar. So are a number of others. Though I've never owned a Pride/Fowler, I have heard wonderful things about them and friends seem pleased with theirs. Is it less expensive? Of course, but I haven't subjected one to stalking in the mountains on cold weather hunts yet, so I'm not sure how it would hold up to my abuse as the NF has.

That brings me back to the Leupold. I wasn't disparaging Leupold as a brand based on my sample of one. I was simply relaying the fact that, the one I did have decided it didn't like being banged around through the snow and trees for several days. Leupold replaced it and the rifle it is currently on is at the moment only being used on the range, but it most likely will not be returning to the hunt anytime soon.

And I agree that if I'm going to recommend a brand like NF or USO, why not go full out and drop Schmidt & Bender PM-II 3-12x into the mix. My dream scope right there. Also, as we've already acknowledged, the Velocity reticle isn't the be all, end all reticle. I've already said I like the H58 reticle for certain applications, as well as hollow Mil-dot (personal favorite) and standard Mil-dot. There are tons of options out there, and even some of the best HSLD types will offer differing opinions on what they like. Best bet is for the OP to get a chance to feel and (if possible) shoot several different scopes before making a decision.


H

[TonyTacoma]

Thanks for all the great responses guys, my budget currently lies at the 1k level but maybe I should pony up for the NF? Do you guys think its worth the extra bucks, it certainly seems like those who have it can't say enough good about it..

[broylz]

you dont have to spend the cash on a nightforce even though they are generally placed on top for quality lately. its certanly on my dream list for my r700.
that said, im more likely to purchase a vortex viper pst for my budget.

what distances are you planning on shooting? did i miss this above?

also, dont overlook the ammo part of the equation. ive seen many people get frustrated with a precision rifle and give up because they were shooting xm193 vs some sort of actual match ammo or a properly tuned reload. if you have a 1:9 twist, id suggest a 69gr bullet, 75gr if shooting a 1:7 twist. those are just a general suggestion but your rifle may be slightly different in its preferences.

[GIJew766]

If you're trying to stick under a grand, you won't be going wrong with the Viper PST 2.5-10x44.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&pq=vortex+viper+pst&xhr=t&q=vortex+viper+pst+2.5-10x44&cp=18&client=safari&rls=en&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1280&bih=601&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13026426512394333034&sa=X&ei=BPUgTvKULei70AH3-ri9Aw&sqi=2&ved=0CBUQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers

On the other hand, if you do decide to pony up for the NF, go with the C288 (2.5-10x32 with the Mil-dot reticle). If you don't know how to work the Mil-dot, there are plenty of resources both here and on the web explaining how to get the most out of the reticle (especially range estimation, speed holds, wind holds, etc.)

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=nightforce+2.5-10x32+mil-dot&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=8931092561006270060&sa=X&ei=TPUgTrXmC8Pn0QG8kdGcAw&ved=0CE0Q8wIwAA#ps-sellers

Do be careful though, as a lot of Mil-dot scopes do not zoom the reticle with the increased magnification. In the box with the scope, there will be a "user's guide" that will explain what magnification the reticle is proper size to mean that the values will be correct (dots are equal to 1 Miliradian). A good online resource is this here (http://www.mil-dot.com/). Mil-dots take some time, but they become intuitive eventually.

Regardless, buy what you can afford and what you want and what will work best for you.

Good luck and good shooting, brother.


H

[CageFighter]

I have a Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 MOA w/ ADM Recon mount & Vortex Cat tail lever for possible sale (great price). Send me a PM and we can talk.

I decided to go back to the EoTech red dot, it seems to work best for me!