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jhs1969
10-24-07, 20:57
Has anyone used Georgia Arms ammo. I recently picked up 500 rnds (.223). I have used them before for 9mm and 45. I've only shot about 200 rnds of the .223 so far.

I know that they use only once fired military brass (at least that's what they've always said) and claim to load specifally for AR's.

A lot of people have bragged on Black Hills reloaded .223, is Georgia Arms good quality in your opinion? Comparable to Black Hills?

I would rather shoot something like this than to go to steel cased ammo for my AR's.

NCPatrolAR
10-24-07, 21:38
I was using Canned Heat as my primary training ammo for several years until I heard and observed several guns blow up due to it (the ammo). I dont know if their issues have been fixed, but I avoid the stuff now.

Shihan
10-24-07, 23:34
Its definetly not BH quality and after all of the CH reported kabooms I would be hard pressed to shoot it if it was free.

Gramps
10-24-07, 23:45
Georgia Arms Kaboom or NOT?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello, I am one of the guys at Georgia Arms; we manufacture a long list of ammunition choices including a product called “Canned Heat”. I believe most of you read a story about our 223 ammo destroying two AR’s and how we failed to stand behind our product. Even thought I’m not Paul Harvey, I would like to tell you the “rest of the story”. It was reported that two kabooms occurred last year one in June of 2006 and another in August of 2006 both from the same batch of ammo. What you did not hear was that I called tagged 50 rounds of ammo back from the first customer and then 10,000 rounds back from his shooting partner and that BOTH batches of ammo were mixed with ammo that we did not manufacture. This was after the customer who had the second kaboom assured me that he EXCLUSIVELY used Georgia Arms Canned Heat for his training class, no possible chance it could be anything else. Needless to say when we started going through what we got back and found 23 rounds including factory Federal, factory Winchester and some reloads I could not identify other than they were not mine, (wrong bullet, wrong powder charge, wrong headspace), I was not overwhelmed with confidence in what the customer was telling me. As I explained the situation to him and indicated that I saw nothing wrong with my ammo and I believed he had a problem with someone else’s ammo he became very upset and said the ammo had to be mine because the headstamp on the case that destroyed his carbine was a WCC. WHAT? Does that make sense to you? Is Georgia Arms the only people who can load WCC cases? He also reported to you that the builder of the carbines positively identified the casings in the guns as ours. That is simply not true. Consider this; all that was left was two ruined 223 casings, no bullet, no powder, no primer, simply empty cases. Are we to suppose that someone has the power to look into their crystal ball and determine who loaded it last? The bottom line is no conclusion could be drawn from the casings. So, how did I decide the rounds were not ours? I felt the best approach was to determine what could have caused the problems we saw. Let me first explain the type of failure that occurred. A typical kaboom is nothing more than a case failure. The casing has a defect; it is too brittle, too thin or has an inclusion in the webb or wall. A case failure of this type at normal pressure destroys a magazine but very little else. These types of failures happen every so often and can not be prevented, that’s why we wear safety glasses. The two kabooms experienced here were NOT of that type. Those of you who that saw the pictures will remember, the whole receiver was destroyed, the bolt was split from end to end the bolt carrier destroyed etc. I talked with Reed Knight at Knights Armament Corp as he probably has as much knowledge and experience with the AR system as anyone alive today since Stoner passed away. Reed indicated that to do that type of damage to a quality gun, pressures above 90,000 psi were present in the firings. This is about twice what normal pressure would be. He narrowed the reasons down to two; barrel obstruction or the wrong powder in the case. I examined the barrels and saw no evidence of an obstruction. I believe these two incidents were caused by someone loading the wrong speed powder in the casing. Normal speed powder used in the 223 (748, H335, WC844, smp 735 etc.) would run out of case capacity long before you could generate this type of pressure. However a 25 grain charge of a pistol speed powder could do this damage (231, HP-38, Titegroup, Bullseye, etc). So how do I know that we did not load the wrong powder? To answer that, let me give you a brief overview of how we assemble 223 ammo. We have two arsenal style machines that are in-line presses with 21 stations to handle assembly and 12 different quality control checks during the assembly process. Each machine has a powder hopper that holds 5 lbs of powder. The hopper is run down to the 1lb level and then 4 lbs of powder is added back to the fill line. 4 lbs of smp 735 will load over 1000 rounds of 223 ball ammo. Simple logic dictates that if we poured the wrong speed powder into the hopper, we would have produced over 1000 high pressures rounds not 2 out of 15,000. Also we have at this time completed a teardown of over 100 rounds of the 10,000 we recalled from these customers with all powder charges being within specifications. Also after culling out the rounds that we identified as not being ours, (remember we have the bullet, powder, primer and headspace to examine on these loaded rounds) all the remaining rounds in theses two lots were fired with no problems. The bottom line; I am 100% certain we did not put the wrong powder in these two cases. So, how does Georgia Arms stand behind their products? We paid for repairing the two guns anyway just to prevent anyone from having a basis to run down our reputation. I guess you can see how well that worked out for us. If I may offer some advice from an old man who has been shooting for over 40 years now. When you are shooting ammunition from several sources, keep them separate!! Shooting with a mixture of ammo in your magazine is about the same as buying your gas from three different gas stations, 1/3 of a tank from each, if you end up with water in your tank whom will you blame? For those of you who took the time to read this whole post, I appreciate your patience, for those of you who buy ammo from us I appreciate you patronage and as Paul Harvey would say “and now you know the rest of the story”! I welcome any question or comments. Till next time I remain, magnum1

RocketFuel
10-25-07, 03:09
I have purchased many thousands of rounds from Georgia Arms in 10mm, 9mm and .45acp, both practice loads and full power +p, and not only have I never had a problem, but believe their quality to be very good.

I have not purchased their .223, but would conclude that it is probably of the same good quality.

Easy to infer otherwise from all the internet BS that goes around.

My 2˘.

MaceWindu
10-25-07, 10:04
This was after the customer who had the second kaboom assured me that he EXCLUSIVELY used Georgia Arms Canned Heat for his training class, no possible chance it could be anything else. Needless to say when we started going through what we got back and found 23 rounds including factory Federal, factory Winchester and some reloads I could not identify other than they were not mine, (wrong bullet, wrong powder charge, wrong headspace), I was not overwhelmed with confidence in what the customer was telling me.

BULLSHIT...

Whether the ammo you received back was all yours or not...the shell pulled out of the chamber was GEORGIA ARMS CANNED HEAT.:rolleyes:

Proven by (2) top tier AR builders.


Want pics? Want pics of the case head? Wanna know why a major training company dropped ALL GA Canned Heat from it's inventory?

Sorry, dropped the FACT bomb on your arse...:eek:

Mace

Gramps
10-25-07, 10:57
Being neutral, then I would think that if someone has documented proof who's ammo it was, and some top dog custom builders verify that, that was the cause, then someone needs to step up and take responability where due. We as customers do not want "EXCUSES", we want "RESULTS".

I would NOT want that to be caused by my product. I'd take damn good cover and stay there!

MaceWindu
10-25-07, 11:25
It was MY carbine. Per GA policy, negate all responsibility, proof or not. They could have spent $1050 to make it right and no one would have been the wiser.

Instead, they choose to try and screw the customer and it cost them a hell of alot more...:)


Mace

Gramps
10-25-07, 11:56
I went to their web site and I cannot tell if they are selling "NEW" or "REMANUFACTURED" ammo. If its new ammo, something is "SEAREOUSLY WRONG". Either way, Q control isn't to good. I'll be watching to see if my wife "GIVES" me some of this ammo. She keeps my life ins. paid up and won't shoot with me. (HMMMMMM)

STS
10-25-07, 13:36
Mace,

How did the two manufactures identify that it was GA ammo? Just curious. Also, did they actually pay to replace your carbine? I thought his post said that they did pay to repair it.

MaceWindu
10-25-07, 13:56
The ammo was identified from the stamp on the case head.

They did pay for (2) carbines...partially. I had to come out of pocket about $150. I know of (4) others that had KaBooms with their ammo.

This was AFTER 2.5 months of letters, e-mails, phone calls, DNA evidence...:mad:

Mace

Sidewinder6
10-25-07, 13:56
I have had a technical problem with Canned Heat which I encountered in the form of split casings. I have read and as well, understand from range masters and instructors this is a recurring issue. Too bad. I like the packaging. I shoot alot of 9mm Canned Heat without this problem. Understand this has been isolated to .223.

jhs1969
10-25-07, 15:34
Does anyone know of a source for Black Hills red box?

rhino
10-26-07, 01:08
I'm not doubting anyone's claims, but I don't understand how the casehead stamping can prove the source unless Georgia Arms has their own head stamp (which I don't think they do).

The few thousand rounds of canned heat I've fired have all been in Lake City (LC) brass. I've never seen any with WCC headstamps, but it sounds like that's what they're using now?

Robb Jensen
10-26-07, 05:40
I'm not doubting anyone's claims, but I don't understand how the casehead stamping can prove the source unless Georgia Arms has their own head stamp (which I don't think they do).

The few thousand rounds of canned heat I've fired have all been in Lake City (LC) brass. I've never seen any with WCC headstamps, but it sounds like that's what they're using now?


I've seen a few rifles that Kb'd from GA 'canned heat' one (about a year ago) was from a local guy who had a RRA carbine which essentially had a case failure. It destroyed the bolt, firing pin, cam pin & magazine. The case down near the rim blew out. I had to beat the carrier out with a brass punch. I believe GA is using brass that has gone through a M249 (from military ranges). The rest of his ammo from that case had a mix of headstamps, LC, WCC and some civilian .223 brass.

IMO a few things might have prevented this: These being using an M16 carrier and running either an H2 buffer or having a midlength gas system and/or a reaming the RRA chamber with the 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer. But I think the real problem is the brass that's gone through a belt fed and thus it is severely weakened.

Sam
10-26-07, 06:08
Does anyone know of a source for Black Hills red box?


www.midwayusa.com

Failure2Stop
10-26-07, 08:00
But I think the real problem is the brass that's gone through a belt fed and thus it is severely weakened.

How does a belt-fed gun weaken brass more than a conventional magazine-fed rifle? Is it due to ignition prior to full locking? Is it due to wear on the case as it is pushed through the link? Not doubting your statement, just seeking information.

Apologies for the mini-hijack, you may now continue your regularly scheduled thread.

MaceWindu
10-26-07, 09:15
The case down near the rim blew out. I had to beat the carrier out with a brass punch. I believe GA is using brass that has gone through a M249 (from military ranges). The rest of his ammo from that case had a mix of headstamps, LC, WCC and some civilian .223 brass.

IMO a few things might have prevented this: These being using an M16 carrier and running either an H2 buffer or having a midlength gas system and/or a reaming the RRA chamber with the 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer. But I think the real problem is the brass that's gone through a belt fed and thus it is severely weakened.


Bingo...


How does a belt-fed gun weaken brass more than a conventional magazine-fed rifle?

Excessive head spacing... weakens the brass.


Mace

sgtlmj
10-26-07, 11:01
Our dept. has shot tens of thousands of rounds of canned heat in 223 and various pistol calibers for the last decade. We've never had an issue. Must be lucky.

rmecapn
10-26-07, 11:02
I don't understand why anyone would pay 32 cents a round for reloads when you can get new Remington UMC at Wally World for the same price. If your particular Wal-Mart doesn't have it, ask if they can order it. $6.47/box of 20. Reloads are reloads, I really don't care who the manufacturer may be. You run a certain risk you don't have with new manufacture.

MaceWindu
10-26-07, 11:25
I don't understand why anyone would pay 32 cents a round for reloads when you can get new Remington UMC at Wally World for the same price. If your particular Wal-Mart doesn't have it, ask if they can order it. $6.47/box of 20. Reloads are reloads, I really don't care who the manufacturer may be. You run a certain risk you don't have with new manufacture.


If you have a good QA process, reloads can be just as good if not BETTER then fatory stuff.

I shoot and reload my own .45ACP, never a problem and a very good QA process for EACH reloaded round. Very accurate, very reliable...

$77 per 1K vs $300-350 per 1K factory loaded...

Now, after 5K rounds how much have I saved?


Mace

Gramps
10-26-07, 11:45
If you reload your own, then you can visually inspect EACH round for QC. How can a commercial comp do that kind of QC?
Unless they are paying a Chinaman to do it for 10 rnds for a penny. And on that wage, how careful is he/she going to be?
So yes do your own reloads, you can keep track of your brass, and equip, ect. And you are using the same gun/s and not a hodgepodge of WHATEVER, reloaded HOW MANY TIMES?

Robb Jensen
10-26-07, 11:46
Our dept. has shot tens of thousands of rounds of canned heat in 223 and various pistol calibers for the last decade. We've never had an issue. Must be lucky.

I've never blown up a rifle myself either with any ammo, I've probably shot somewhere around 100K rounds of rifle ammo in the 32 yrs I've been shooting. This doesn't mean that the very next round I fire in a rifle will not blow up it up. Many people think that their house won't ever burn down or that they ever be in a bad car accident until it happens.

This is why I'm careful what I shoot through my guns and why I maintain my guns very well. YMMV.

Failure2Stop
11-02-07, 06:11
But I think the real problem is the brass that's gone through a belt fed and thus it is severely weakened.

Not that anybody would doubt gotM4, but I did stumble accross headspace gauge go,no go, and field dimensions.

M249 5.56 is quite a bit longer than M16 5.56.

Just in case anybody was still interested other than me.

Submariner
11-02-07, 08:29
I don't understand why anyone would pay 32 cents a round for reloads when you can get new Remington UMC at Wally World for the same price. If your particular Wal-Mart doesn't have it, ask if they can order it. $6.47/box of 20. Reloads are reloads, I really don't care who the manufacturer may be. You run a certain risk you don't have with new manufacture.

Plus, Remington brass has no crimp to remove. No need to buy Dillon swage for reloading. And you know it hasn't been fired through an excessively head-spaced M249.

rmecapn
11-14-07, 15:41
If you have a good QA process, reloads can be just as good if not BETTER then fatory stuff.

I shoot and reload my own .45ACP, never a problem and a very good QA process for EACH reloaded round. Very accurate, very reliable...


I was referring to those who pay someone else to do the reloading. Doing your own reloading puts the QC on you, as you indicated. Therefore you have control over it. Purchasing someone else's reloads leaves you at their mercy as far as QC goes.

MaceWindu
11-14-07, 16:12
I was referring to those who pay someone else to do the reloading. Doing your own reloading puts the QC on you, as you indicated. Therefore you have control over it. Purchasing someone else's reloads leaves you at their mercy as far as QC goes.

10-4...


Mace

A-Bear680
11-16-07, 15:04
I was considering buying some canned heat. Not any more.
Reloaded brass from Benning , maybe from a SAW range ( and maybe a weapons pool SAW ) ?
I don't think so, just not worth it for the small savings compared to other ammo.

Edit: To be fair ,I have shot a few hundred rounds of virgin brass ammo from GA, in other calibers, with no problems.
Not a big sample , but still no problems that I have personally observed.

Street Survival
01-07-08, 11:31
So what's the bottom line:
Canned Heat for the AR or start looking else wheres? Sound Off

Shihan
01-07-08, 16:52
So what's the bottom line:
Canned Heat for the AR or start looking else wheres? Sound Off

Read this thread.

Voodoochild
01-07-08, 17:15
Honestly Street it depends man. I shot a bunch back when it was 165K but no the prices are about the same as factory. So I just try and find the best deal on factory fresh ammo.

rhino
01-07-08, 19:00
For what it's worth, I haven't shot any more of it since I went through my first few thousand rounds. Collectively my buddies and I have gone through probably 30-40K of the 55gr FMJ canned heat, depending on how much some of the guys still have squirreled away. I have one more can of 1000 rounds from when it was (I think) $175 per 1000. We bought it several times in lots of 30-50K rounds to get the shipping comped.

The main reason I won't buy anymore is because it went over $200 per 1000 rounds. I have an emotional problem paying that much for reloads. Color me crazy. Now that it's $300 or more ... no way.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how a remanufacturer can be indentified with certainty from just the headstamp on the brass. If they were using their own proprietary headstamp, I can see it, but a lot of people and companies reload LC brass. This is in no way a commentary on any personal experiences with the Georgia Arms ammo, but I'm still not seeing how just the headstamp is proof positive to an objective, third party.

Geoffrey
01-17-08, 09:18
I also use GA canned heat.

There 10mm has been a great performer for me.

Hootiewho
01-17-08, 16:55
I will post this again, as I know first hand that Ga Arms sells ammo that will go Boom. I posted this in another GA Arms topic and note this is on a .308 cartridge in a Bolt gun; I can only imagine what would have happened in an AR10

I have been trying to warn people about their crappy ammo for a few years now, I have mentioned it in several post and warned a guy at the SC Pat Rogers class about that stuff. I had a 168 grain "Match" .308 blow a primer so bad it blowed bits of primer into my face from out around the back of the bolt and messed up my bolt. Out of a batch of 500, I had 10 or so do that, one got stuck in the chamber and I had a hell of a time getting the bolt to unlock in a bolt action. The one that got me in the face, I picked about 10 pieces of metal from around where I had my glasses on. I called them about it and talk to them at a gun show,even showed them the case with the blown out primer and their attitude was like So? F*ck Ga Arms! Be very careful shooting their ammo, if you do wear your eye protection. That is the only reason I still have my sight today.

MaceWindu
01-18-08, 11:05
I will post this again, as I know first hand that Ga Arms sells ammo that will go Boom. I posted this in another GA Arms topic and note this is on a .308 cartridge in a Bolt gun; I can only imagine what would have happened in an AR10

I have been trying to warn people about their crappy ammo for a few years now, I have mentioned it in several post and warned a guy at the SC Pat Rogers class about that stuff. I had a 168 grain "Match" .308 blow a primer so bad it blowed bits of primer into my face from out around the back of the bolt and messed up my bolt. Out of a batch of 500, I had 10 or so do that, one got stuck in the chamber and I had a hell of a time getting the bolt to unlock in a bolt action. The one that got me in the face, I picked about 10 pieces of metal from around where I had my glasses on. I called them about it and talk to them at a gun show,even showed them the case with the blown out primer and their attitude was like So? F*ck Ga Arms! Be very careful shooting their ammo, if you do wear your eye protection. That is the only reason I still have my sight today.


Bro...they do not want to listen. I too have personally seen 2 KaBooms! and know of 4 others.

If you want to blow your shit up, go ahead. :rolleyes: Your point about their customer service is RIGHT ON.

Pictures speak 1000 words.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom3.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom4.jpg

Mace

PALADIN-hgwt
01-18-08, 12:15
xxxxx

rhino
01-18-08, 13:34
I found a second unopened (still in the cardboard shipping box) can of 55gr FMJ canned heat. I was wrong about the price ... both of the cans I have say "$190" on the label, but we got them for $162 shipped ($180 minus 10%) because they raised the price to $190 after they received my order, but before they shipped it.

So now I have 2000 rounds of the stuff that I'm not really thrilled about shooting.

Given the price ($190 per can), is this from before, after, or about the same time as the ammo that has caused the problems?

As I said, we've been through tens of thousands of rounds including the shipment above with no problems other than that I noticed a decrease in accuracy with the last batch.

I've had people offer to buy it from me, even though they know about the reports of destroyed guns. I'm concerned about selling it to them for liability reasons. I know Georgia Arms would have some level of liability, but I suspect that if I resell it, I would be incurring some myself (i.e. one of those "joint and several liability" situations). I could have them sign a waiver that they know what they're buying, but such documents don't mean much in court when something actually happens. Far more importantly, I would feel really bad if someone got hurt and I had even mimimal involvement.

Pulling the bullets on all of them is a non-starter, although I could probably re-sell the bullets and recoup some of my money. Since the brass is probably the problem, selling it would seem not that far from re-selling the loaded ammo.

rmecapn
01-18-08, 13:39
Just so no one misunderstands regarding reloaded ammo, I've been rolling my own .223/5.56 ammunition since about 1980, and except for one commercially processed case with a "dead primer" I've never had a single reload related issue.

Just so you understand, this thread is about commercially reloaded ammo, not personally reloaded ammo. The whole issue centers around the quality control on commercial reloads. With commerical reloads you don't know what the QC process is (or isn't). When you do the reloading you know exactly what goes into the QC process.

Personally, commercial reloads are not my cup of tea. Blackhills, maybe, but no one else.

PALADIN-hgwt
01-18-08, 15:32
xxxxx

rmecapn
01-18-08, 16:28
Just so you understand that the Remington UMC you recommended has been chrono tested and found to have almost 300 fps extreme spread, which indicated QC at the "crap" level.



And so I'm better off with Georgia Arms canned heat?

The Remington brass is new, not potentially fired through a M249 SAW. And 300fps spread on .223 would barely put it at 5.56 pressures, so I'm not too concerned. Is it markmanship ammo? No. I'm not asking it to be. Neither is anyone who's buying the commercial reloads, they're looking at cost. I'm quite certain you turn out quality reloads for your own use. But as I indicated, the primary discussion was concerning the potential problems with commercial reloads, in particular Georgia Arms canned heat.

Just so we're clear, I'm all for folks who want to reload for their own use. More power to them. I wish I had the space to dedicate to my Dillon 550 and some time to sit down and load, but I don't at this time. As a result, I have to find the best price on decent quality ammo that I can. That Remington UMC was it (until they raised the price to $7.52/box as of the new year). I find it absolutely humorous that we have folks who less than two years ago wouldn't touch Wolf and now they are buying it by the case. Reloading is great if you have the time and space. Some of us don't.

By far the biggest issue with commercial reloads is the brass. You have no way of knowing how many times it's been used or what it was used in. And that's why I'll take almost any new manufacture over a commercial reload.

Submariner
01-18-08, 17:26
The Remington brass is new, not potentially fired through a M249 SAW.
...
By far the biggest issue with commercial reloads is the brass. You have no way of knowing how many times it's been used or what it was used in. And that's why I'll take almost any new manufacture over a commercial reload.

Remington brass isn't shot through M249's. BIG UP-CHECK!

That's why you can't find it. Huge demand.

So I bought UMC at under $.27/round last year and will pick up my own once-fired brass. (Less than Canned Heat.) Subtracting the once-fired UMC brass cost of $.08/ round, if you can find it, the price is less than Wolf.

My chronographing hasn't shown spreads as extreme as noted by the poster above. But for inside 50m, who cares?

There are heavier loads and USGI for social purposes.

Moltke
07-18-12, 09:58
Does anyone else have any additional experiences with GA ammo? Anyone shot a significant quantity of it in the past 2 years? Anyone seen any more problems?

What about their handgun calibers - 9mm, .40 and .45?

jhs1969
07-18-12, 10:32
Does anyone else have any additional experiences with GA ammo? Anyone shot a significant quantity of it in the past 2 years? Anyone seen any more problems?

What about their handgun calibers - 9mm, .40 and .45?

Back when I used to run a 45acp, I tried some of their house loaded JHP using a 230gr Gold Dot bullet. In an expansion comparison with factory loaded Gold Dot's their home brew GD ammo was signifantly lower powered.

They come to every local gun show here, but I've not bought any of their stuff in over 5 years now.

I know a few local shooters who use their handgun ammo and seem happy with it. I personally would no longer use their rifle ammo, nor their handgun ammo in a defensive role. Probably not much help here, sorry.

bananaman
07-25-12, 21:48
I used a few cans of their S&W40 a few years ago without problem.

But then I bought a Glock 20 and the guy that sold it too me threw in a bag of GA 10MM. No kidding, that crap wouldn't even hit paper out of that gun from 15 yards 2 out of 3 shots for the entire bag of 50. All other ammo has worked fine in that gun.

So no more GA for me...

Warp
07-28-12, 23:19
I have purchased and fired GA Arms ammo in 10mm, 9mm and .38spl. I also got my FIL some in .357 sig, at his specific request. I have nothing negative to report.

gatorfan605
07-29-12, 08:41
I live 10 minutes from their facility. I've been using their ammo for years and only had one ammo related malfunction. As with everything else, you can't please everyone, but I give them a good review.

snakedoc257
11-13-12, 23:53
I too live close to Ga. Arms. Nothing but trouble here. Terrible quality control. Reloaded ammo that's about the same prices as new. Several dented cases, bullets not seated/crimped well and falling back into the case. Numerous failure to fire and loads not powerful enough to cycle the ammo. This is good ammo for practicing your malfunction drills.

No more GA. Arms for my stuff.

Warp
11-14-12, 00:03
I've only ever seen good feedback on GA Arms ammo, including the guy shooting it in his AR on the line next to me this past weekend.

I haven't used any of their rifle ammo myself, but I have used .38spl, 9mm, and 10mm without any issues.

Edit: Only I see I already posted that. It's been several months...I forgot. I guess the part about the guy shooting it in his AR is new.