View Full Version : Surefire 60 rd magazine ; initial impressions
Larry Vickers
07-14-11, 11:52
Gang I just got a few of the new Surefire 60 rd magazines to try out before my recent training gigs in PA
I took one with me and shot it the first class myself ( limited amount of course- enough to demo different drills and such) and a student used it as his primary mag in the second class - probably 600 rds or more with that mag in two days
When I first loaded it I could only get 51 rds in it before the spring tension got super stiff - that went away however as the student reported loading it to capacity after that
Bottomline the mag worked flawless- it honestly could not have functioned better. I was very impressed with the mag in general and how well it worked
The student reported the extra inch in length or so going prone was a
plus as well as the extra wide footprint
To me the design gem is the two miniature feed ramps in the front of the mag- honestly when feeding a round into the chamber it fed so smoothly it felt like the bolt was closing on an empty chamber
I give the Surefire 60 rd mag a big thumbs up and highly recommend you get one and try it out
Cheers
LAV
eternal24k
07-14-11, 12:06
thanks Larry,
did you see any signs of follower tilt? I was told these do not have anti-tilt followers.
I really appreciate you giving some feedback, there are certain things I need to hear about from a non-biased, hold no punches, kind of guy.
After seeing it I am getting one or two. Not sure what problem they solve for me, but they are pretty damned cool.
Very cool. I'd love to get one of these for some full auto shooting.
Thanks for the good word Larry.
After seeing it I am getting one or two. Not sure what problem they solve for me, but they are pretty damned cool.
That's a great way to put it.
I’m glad to hear good reports on these mags and I’m excited to run one of these through the paces! If these continue to work well, I think they would be a great option for troops carrying the IAR and for backup non-belt fed mags for the M249. Did you do any full auto mag dumps with one?
thanks Larry,
did you see any signs of follower tilt? I was told these do not have anti-tilt followers.
I really appreciate you giving some feedback, there are certain things I need to hear about from a non-biased, hold no punches, kind of guy.
My understanding is, the absence of a no tilt follower is by design.
There's a SureFire rep that posts here, I'll see if I can get him to comment.
Also, the compatibility of the mag with the IAR is somewhat questionable.
Bob
Cool and thanks for the review LAV.
C4
Bottomline the mag worked flawless-
Sweet, I'm in.
Cincinnatus
07-14-11, 13:15
On Mr. Vickers's recommendation, I'm all for getting one! :D
I was very impressed with it and it worked like a charm!
Not one single malf! Hold open worked everytime but you rarely get to an empty mag with it in a training environment.
but does it survive your torture test(s)
Thanks for the headsup
Biz Kizzle
07-14-11, 15:08
i do want one of these. just can't justify the price at this point. looks fun though.
I give the Surefire 60 rd mag a big thumbs up and highly recommend you get one and try it out
Cheers
LAV
Are they available for the rest of us yet?
Awesome! Good to hear impressions from a SME.
I'll probably wait a little until the prices come down a smidge and stick one in my bedside carbine.
If LAV says its good to go and that I should check it out... I think I will. Now we ask who's got the best price, and who has them in stock?
Matt Edwards
07-14-11, 16:43
R. Moran is correct. Due to the mag's nesting follower system (twin follower ends up mateing with the quad follower) there is not currently any room to make the twin follower "anti-tilt."
Lav,thanks for takeing the time to post your impressions!
Matt
Larry Vickers
07-14-11, 17:21
No full auto mag dumps yet- also a piece of info; I have it from a source the reason the AK74 60 rd mag is so scarce is because limited numbers were made for testing and the mag was deemed not reliable enough for service use
Anti tilt follower aside when a mag works as well as this one did it gets my attention
Well done Surefire!
Be safe
LAV
If LAV says its good to go and that I should check it out... I think I will. Now we ask who's got the best price, and who has them in stock?
This is the real issue; when\where can I buy one?
I would think if the mag works it really doesn’t matter if the follower tilts or not.
wicked_police
07-14-11, 19:56
A buddy of mine was using it in the class. He said it's a great piece of kit.
I'm definitely gonna try and find a couple....
. . .when a mag works as well as this one did it gets my attention
Well done Surefire!
Be safe
LAV
Nice going I must say!
How many different magazines were used and from how many different lots/batches? How many times were they each loaded? I'm a bit skeptical of chasing "new."
High Tower
07-14-11, 23:40
This is the real issue; when\where can I buy one?
They should be shipping soon. Any Surefire dealer with half a brain should have had them on order for about 5 months now.
I also had shot a few rounds through one without any issues. And I am no one special so they will be available soon.
Moose-Knuckle
07-15-11, 00:27
Good to know.
Skyfire1201
07-15-11, 00:37
Does the mag drop free? Will it fit into kydex mag carriers made for regular GI mags?
Jay Cunningham
07-15-11, 00:43
The concept of "anti-tilt followers" being mandatory gear in semi-auto AR-15s is a giant hoax perpetrated upon the shooting community.
I just received a few of them and Larry's comments is spot on with the quality of the 60 rd mags. I haven't had a chance to put some rounds through it yet but will do so very shortly. The mini feed ramps on the mag is a nice touch and the finish on the mags that I have are perfect.
I just received a few of them and Larry's comments is spot on with the quality of the 60 rd mags. I haven't had a chance to put some rounds through it yet but will do so very shortly. The mini feed ramps on the mag is a nice touch and the finish on the mags that I have are perfect.
You're endorsing a new magazine you have yet to use based off aesthetics? :suicide2:
thanks for the review Mr. Vickers, definetly puts this product on my radar now!
wetidlerjr
07-15-11, 05:59
I just received a few of them and Larry's comments is spot on with the quality of the 60 rd mags. I haven't had a chance to put some rounds through it yet but will do so very shortly. The mini feed ramps on the mag is a nice touch and the finish on the mags that I have are perfect.
You're endorsing a new magazine you have yet to use based off aesthetics? :suicide2:
:confused: All I see is someone remarking on the apparent quality of the magazine. He isn't recommending that anyone buy it.
Good to know.
I was skeptical, mostly due to my not understanding how it could work inside, but I can't remember the last time SF released something that didn't work as advertised. I have no need for these myself, but I've had customers ask about them. Good to know that they're working well.
Any feedback on the 100 round mags yet?
This is the real issue; when\where can I buy one?
We are taking pre-orders so send us an e-mail with how many you want.
C4
The concept of "anti-tilt followers" being mandatory gear in semi-auto AR-15s is a giant hoax perpetrated upon the shooting community.
I agree. Every anti tilt follower I've tried can still "tilt" enough that it could missfeed.
This would be perfect for those who don't want a redimag for their HD carbine...
This would be perfect for those who don't want a redimag for their HD carbine...
Unless your reason for the Redimag is as much malfunction clearance as additional ammo.
The concept of "anti-tilt followers" being mandatory gear in semi-auto AR-15s is a giant hoax perpetrated upon the shooting community.
I disagree. I've seen too many bolt-over-base malfunctions to not have good followers and magazines.
I disagree. I've seen too many bolt-over-base malfunctions to not have good followers and magazines.
This could also be because the feed lips have spread (nothing to do with the follower).
C4
This could also be because the feed lips have spread (nothing to do with the follower).
It might also be a rusted floor plate, or gremlins in the buffer tube.......
Good anti-tilt followers work, and reduce magazine-related malfunctions. I've never heard anyone make a case against them until now. You see a lot of interesting stuff on this forum.
It might also be a rusted floor plate, or gremlins in the buffer tube.......
Good anti-tilt followers work, and reduce magazine-related malfunctions. I've never heard anyone make a case against them until now. You see a lot of interesting stuff on this forum.
Being realistic about what causes most of the magazine related malfunction, it isn't the follower. It is the feed lips spreading and allowing two rounds out at a time.
During the firing of the last 4-5 rounds (on full auto), the rounds bounce around in the mag as they rise to the top. This can cause the rounds to point downwards and enter at just below the feed ramp of the barrel extension. With the invention of the extended feed ramps (M4), we have basically eliminated this issue.
So IMHO, if you are shooting FA with a gun that does not have M4 feed ramps, then an anti-tilt follower will serve you well. If you are shooting a gun that has the ramps, but your follower does not have anti-tilt capability you will be ok as well.
You are right about seeing some "interesting stuff" on this forum (or the errornet for that matter). ;)
C4
Yes . . . the follower tilts.
NO . . . . its not an issue.
I have over (conservatively speaking) 1,200 rds of suppressed and unsuppressed rounds through my 60rd mag and it has not had a functional issue yet.
I ain't gonna clean it till it stops working and the tilting follower tilts or stops moving up and down.
Matt Edwards
07-15-11, 15:02
Does the mag drop free? Will it fit into kydex mag carriers made for regular GI mags?
Yes and yes. Part of my field testing consisted of conducting rifle El-prez using a Blade-Tech single mag pouch.
It might also be a rusted floor plate, or gremlins in the buffer tube.......
Good anti-tilt followers work, and reduce magazine-related malfunctions. I've never heard anyone make a case against them until now. You see a lot of interesting stuff on this forum.
Actually, a few years back, Ken Elmore, told me, basically whats been said here.
He thought MagPul followers were nice, but a green follower with a good quality spring was fine, for most uses, especially non-full auto.
Matt,
Good stuff, I may have to get one, for the hell of it.
Bob
We are taking pre-orders so send us an e-mail with how many you want.
C4
Thanks, sending e-mail for 1.
So has this thread devolved to anti-tilt followers are useless/ unneeded on all AR magazines, or is this specific to the magazine in this thread?
I will probably get one of these mags to help the economy. Just like a flared mag well, ambi controls, etc., the edge you gain in time by having them (could) save your life. But what if you can't get the job done with the 60rds, you will then still have to change mags. Maybe i need to get the 100 rounder.
BufordTJustice
07-16-11, 14:39
To me the design gem is the two miniature feed ramps in the front of the mag- honestly when feeding a round into the chamber it fed so smoothly it felt like the bolt was closing on an empty chamber
I give the Surefire 60 rd mag a big thumbs up and highly recommend you get one and try it out
Cheers
LAV
Hmmmmmmm.:D
The extended feed ramps sound like a design feature that could be applied regardless of capacity. Does SF plan on making a 30rd mag?
I have found that, if a bolt is gonna fail to go into battery, it usually fails in the last inch-or-so of travel (point of greatest friction during feeding). Feedramps that make a gun feed ultra smooth seems to reduce or eliminate this friction point. That sounds like some damn good engineering.
I believe there are around 8 total components on the inside of these mags. There is a video on you-tube that shows the disassembly and reassembly of the mag.
Someone who has a 300BLK needs to see how this puppy feeds!
The extended feed ramps sound like a design feature that could be applied regardless of capacity. Does SF plan on making a 30rd mag?
Say what? The feed ramps are a not on the mag...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=193
I think he meant the feed lips on the magazine as Mr. Vickers mentioned in the OP.
BufordTJustice
07-17-11, 03:51
I think he meant the feed lips on the magazine as Mr. Vickers mentioned in the OP.
Bingo.
I already know what fuggin' M4 feedramps are. Haha. ;)
wetidlerjr
07-17-11, 06:34
So has this thread devolved to anti-tilt followers are useless/ unneeded on all AR magazines, or is this specific to the magazine in this thread?
Who knows ? It's as good a thing to argue about as anything else. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/wetidlerjr/Smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif
Someone who has a 300BLK needs to see how this puppy feeds!
I read elsewhere it was attempted at the AAC Silencer shoot.
it didnt work too well, I dont recall reading why.
Hopefully someone will answer your question better than I did :p
I read elsewhere it was attempted at the AAC Silencer shoot.
it didnt work too well, I dont recall reading why.
Hopefully someone will answer your question better than I did :p
My "guess" would be the increased weight load. I don't know about design specifications with spring loads and the feed lip strength and if it's workable or not. Then feeding from the mag would be an issue.
Who knows ? It's as good a thing to argue about as anything else. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/wetidlerjr/Smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif
Right, 'cause god forbid we discuss things on a discussion forum. :suicide2:
My "guess" would be the increased weight load. I don't know about design specifications with spring loads and the feed lip strength and if it's workable or not. Then feeding from the mag would be an issue.
In my experience with 300BLK, but with no hands on with the Surefire mag, it could be a lot of things. If they tried it with the 123 that load doesn't feed reliably in standard mags so expecting it to do so in a new design is probably a non-starter.
Beyond that I'd have to look closer at the pictures of the Surefire mag to guess why the round won't feed.
I may have missed it, is there a CAD drawing of the internals with rounds and how they look in various stages of capacity?
The top follower is not anti~tilt for a couple reasons that I can see:
1) once it clears the tops 'normal' portion of the mag body, there's not a lot for it to work with AFA rotational tilt. Just the part that lays in the back spine of the mag.
2) look at the second 'double' follower, then look at the single follower. The single fits inside the double when the mag is loaded to X point so as to prevent the single follower from blocking the rounds gettign into the 'normal' section of the mag, and to prevent them going all wompyjawed once they get into the wide portion.
Beyond that point, the guide thing keeps the single follower in location near the transition from wide to narrow to help guide the rounds up the conventional section of the mag body.
ie: first X amount of rounds shove the single follower down into the double follower until the single bottoms on the guide. Then the rounds start to press down on the double follower expanding it away form the now more or less locked in place single follower.
The single follower compresses its (likely) substantially somewhat softer spring til the follower bottoms into the double follower just as the rounds reach the stack point where they transition to the wide portion of the body.
Its spring needs to be just firm enough to shove those first 10 or so rounds up into the feed lips, and soft enough to allow the rounds cycling from the left and right sides of the wide portion to pop past so they too can feed up into the normal section)
The heavier top spring on the double follower takes up the workload until it is overpowered by weight and compression, where the third heavier yet final spring does the remainder of the bulk work.
Were there a single spring instead of dual in the bottom, you'd likely never be able to stuff rounds in just due to shear pressure, so the premis is the top spring only needs to lift and move 10~15 rounds, the middle spring only needs to lift and move say 30~40 rounds and the final spring is responsible for lifting and moving up to 60 rounds.
(without even seeing it apart, I'd almost bet the 100 round version has another spring yet)
The 'guide' keeps the multiple springs all on line with each other and also stops the single follower from getting too low inside the mag body and screwing things all up when 4~5 rounds all get wadded together to try and jam through a slot meant for just 2 in staggered formation.
Now, I don't have one of these things, nor can I legally get one due to local, but after being around mechanical devices for all my life the form and function of the parts in there is sort of obvious.
Its rather ingenious actually, but I could see a simple failure of the guide, like a kink/knick in the top, or bowing along its length for whatever reason, or a small tilt issue with the top follower or its spring kinking/bending/losing springiness making life with it a dangerous proposition.
The top follower is not anti~tilt for a couple reasons that I can see:
1) once it clears the tops 'normal' portion of the mag body, there's not a lot for it to work with AFA rotational tilt. Just the part that lays in the back spine of the mag.
2) look at the second 'double' follower, then look at the single follower. The single fits inside the double when the mag is loaded to X point so as to prevent the single follower from blocking the rounds gettign into the 'normal' section of the mag, and to prevent them going all wompyjawed once they get into the wide portion....
I luv that. :D
I purchased one of these 60 rounders because of this thread and the recommendation from the OP. Here are my no BS results from one range trip.
Drops free: YES
Mag pouch: YES
Anti-Tilt: Who effin cares? It ran flawlessly
Heavy: Not as heavy as expected
Expensive: YES Could have bought 10 Pmags
Here's what happened:
I fired two 60 round strings. One with American Eagle 55gr. 223 and one with Winchester 5.56mm. Both strings were free of any malfunctions but the bolt did not lock back on an empty mag either time.
My thought so far is that I spent over $100 on a mag that doesn't lock back on the last round.
BEFORE I MAKE A FINAL DECISION, I have 4 other 5.56 rifles that I will try this mag in before I kick myself for not buying 10 more Pmags.
VIDEO:
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Videos/th_VIDEO0035.jpg (http://s1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Videos/?action=view¤t=VIDEO0035.mp4)
I purchased one of these 60 rounders because of this thread and the recommendation from the OP. Here are my no BS results from one range trip.
Same situation here.
Drops free: YES check.
Mag pouch: YES didn't try.
Anti-Tilt: Who effin cares? It ran flawlessly check.
Heavy: Not as heavy as expected check. This really surprised me.
Expensive: YES Could have bought 10 Pmags ditto.
Here's what happened:
<snip>
I loaded with between 2 and 5 rounds about ten times. Bolt locked back every time. Controlled fire mag dump, preformed flawlessly, bolt locked back.
Gun was my suppressed, switchblock 10.5" Noveske, H buffer.
I have a couple more 5.56 guns I need to try it with, also need to run it in the Noveske unsuppressed.
So far, I'm happy.
Those guides are not for feeding. They are for using a speedloader. Remember Sullivan was the designer. He designed the BETA, and if you have ever used a BETA with the speedloaders you will see that it rips the front of the towers during loading (not unloading).
When we started building modular tower designs for our high capacity systems we noticed this problem and added a CNC process that puts the "feed ramps" into the steel tower after it is welded. The SF guides are good stuff. Make sure your speedloaders are snug....because if you have enough slop for the loader to slide forward and catch the tips of the rounds going into the magazine really bad things can happen. There is a little ledge in the 5rd plunger loaders that is supposed to sit on the front shelf of the magazine and if it gets in front the tips can catch on the mag going in dislodge them making the cartridges longer and a guaranteed bad deal.
They would benefit feeding if there was a small problem, and I am sure this could be the advertising angle in the end from SF.
Also when things go wrong and the gun punches the round into the front of the magazine, there would be only one thickness of aluminum up there which would take a beating quickly.
If I were to buy one, it would be to replace my house gun's Redi Mag and two P mags with a single mag with the same number of rounds. Cost for the Surefire is less than a Redi Mag and two P mags. I understand that not locking the bolt back is frustrating, but for what I would use it for it is not a deal breaker. I see this mag with a very specific function; grab the AR and go with no other support, as in out of bed in my undies and down the hall with a carbine and 60 rounds. I don't plan to reload in this instance.
Let us know if it works right in your other guns.
If I were to buy one, it would be to replace my house gun's Redi Mag and two P mags with a single mag with the same number of rounds. Cost for the Surefire is less than a Redi Mag and two P mags. I understand that not locking the bolt back is frustrating, but for what I would use it for it is not a deal breaker. I see this mag with a very specific function; grab the AR and go with no other support, as in out of bed in my undies and down the hall with a carbine and 60 rounds. I don't plan to reload in this instance.
Let us know if it works right in your other guns.
This would be significantly lighter than your current set up. I will post my findings on use in my other guns.
xrayoneone
08-25-11, 00:12
I was not impressed with the ones I saw. A rep came out with a couple of suppressed full auto SCARs and the 60 round mags and after 180 rounds we ditched them and went to the PMAGs and GI mags. The mags did not work for us at all. I got about 8 to 10 rounds out before I had my first malfunction. From there it was one to two rounds between stoppages until I got to the last 10 rounds. The last rounds fed without a hitch and I would only assume that is because it was working like a traditional magazine. As far as the malfunctions went it was a feeding issue where the round would nose almost straight up into the chamber area, almost like it was jumping the feed lips of the mag, then the bolt would obviously slam into the body of the round causing a pretty nasty situation. The rounds in the magazine would be nosed down at about a 60 to 70 degree angle. The only double feed we had was shooter induced trying to clear a stoppage through tap, rack.
A couple of points that were brought up was that the rep may have grabbed the wrong magazines. These mags may have been defective and set aside for study or they could have been earlier preproduction mags. He seemed to think this was the case because he had not seen any problems with the magazines before this.
The magazines may not work reliably in the SCARs or other rifles besides milspec M4s or M16s. He said something about also having problems with HK416s as well.
It was unknown how many rounds had been through the mags.
The SCARs were suppressed with Surefire suppressors and we were using HSM (I think) 55 grain .223 ammo.
However, there were NO malfunctions with the PMAGs or the FN aluminum mags.
I wanted to like it but for the money I'll stick with traditional 30 rounders.
These were just my observations. Hopefully we just had a couple of bad magazines.
I definitely "need" one of these after reading this thread
is the noise level of the 60 rd loaded any problems for those who have tested. It's a high pitch ting with the free rounds hitting the front and rear of the magazine in the funnel. All higher(above 30) capacity magazines have a little additional noise to them, exscept for the 40 rd mags of standard design.
for L.A.V. fyi
i also received a tester and its all u say and more. saw a lot of them at the big 3 gun shoot in Park City, KY. this last weekend i went to w/ bolt gun. ran flawlessly, from what i saw.
BIG NOTE PLEASE: this isn't going to interest everyone but i have run over 200 Rd's of 5x45x39 thru it also. RUNS FLAWLESSLY
many sitting on the fence about 5x45 but i am a huge fan (no cracks pls).
2-3 of these will be in my 5x45 load out gear. can't think of any reason why not
good luck
You're endorsing a new magazine you have yet to use based off aesthetics? :suicide2:
i am NOT ENDORSING anything i have not used. i have shot both the 60 and the 100 rd its all lav says. u sound like a pessimist. since surefire has 1 of the best warranty's in the trade who cars if a few dont run. they will replace them my rep tells me.
i have over 400 Rd's down range in 2 mags (1/60-1/100) i am happy
Jay is correct, carrier tilt is bull shit and black magic.
of course i have only been at it for 40 or so years, and i didn't sleep in a h/inn
Jay is correct, carrier tilt is bull shit and black magic.
First it was "feed ramps" and now it's "carrier tilt." It's all fun and games until someone gets their terminology mixed up. :D
I bought one. The rear of the follower broke off after one day. I put one full load through it, then about 20-30 single rounds to try to get it to lock back, before it broke.
Surefire is sending me a replacement, but I'm a little leery of its reliability now.
OK, 60 more rounds. Rifle was a 10.3 carbine gas. Ran flawlessly and locked back.
Total now is 180 trouble free rounds and 1 for 3 on locking back on the last round. I will now try some of my mid length gas guns. I have a theory but I will not divulge it as of yet so the haters won't hijack this thread.
VIDEO:
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Videos/th_VIDEO0036.jpg (http://s1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Videos/?action=view¤t=VIDEO0036.mp4)
ETA: That was 60 rounds in 14 seconds with a GI trigger. The last 60 round video (a few posts above) was with a Timney 3# trigger in you guessed it....14 seconds!
Failure2Stop
09-01-11, 20:43
BIG NOTE PLEASE: this isn't going to interest everyone but i have run over 200 Rd's of 5x45x39 thru it also. RUNS FLAWLESSLY
Very interesting.
BTW- it's 5.45x39 (or 5.45x39.5 if you want to get technical), or simply 5.45.
Why do I open threads like these where I know I don't need it, but by the time I read the thread I do so want it!
Very interesting.
Agreed.
I can't get 5.45 to run more than 18 to 22 or so rounds in reg mags. If 5.45 runs in these surefire, I wonder what is different about the design of theses mags or parts geometry?
Very interesting.
Very interesting indeed.
I have not read this whole thread... has anyone tried .300BLK?
1 mag for 5.56, 5.45, and .300BLK... hmmmm... :)
Ruger SR-556C upper. Colt F/A lower. Surefire 60rd magazine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9qUOFj17qw
Primary Weapons Mk116 upper. Colt F/A lower. Surefire 60rd magazine. Slow motion footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRoXf-E8oWQ&NR=1
Agreed.
I can't get 5.45 to run more than 18 to 22 or so rounds in reg mags. If 5.45 runs in these surefire, I wonder what is different about the design of theses mags or parts geometry?
More than likely it would be the lack of an anti-tilt follower. Anti-tilt follower in standard magazines would not allow for the steeper angle of the cartridge of the 5.45 versus the 5.56.
Thanks. I think i'll pick one up.
Add that to my list of arms and equipment I "need"
I am wondering how it effects the handling of the weapon.
snakedoctor
09-16-11, 22:11
I ran 120rds with mine today. Not one failure.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6182/6154721906_9d67f8d8aa_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/57942327@N05/6154721906/)
Belmont31R
09-16-11, 22:14
Got one and ran it full twice. No problems in my SR15.
For those in the Austin area GT Dist had them earlier this week for less than $100 sticker price.
I ran mine on a suppressed F/A Colt 11.5 inch M16A1. No problems.
These are pretty cool. But do you know how many windowed PMAGs I can buy with $129??? TEN! Hmmm... 60 rounds, 300 rounds, 60 rounds... 300 rounds? I'll pass on the Surefire mag!
Traveshamockery
09-17-11, 22:22
These are pretty cool. But do you know how many windowed PMAGs I can buy with $129??? TEN! Hmmm... 60 rounds, 300 rounds, 60 rounds... 300 rounds? I'll pass on the Surefire mag!
But by my calculations, the Surefire mag is roughly 20 PMAGs worth of awesome.
That said, a bunch of things are on my list before the Surefire mags, but I will own one eventually, if only because a lot of meddlers don't want me to have one.
These are pretty cool. But do you know how many windowed PMAGs I can buy with $129??? TEN! Hmmm... 60 rounds, 300 rounds, 60 rounds... 300 rounds? I'll pass on the Surefire mag!
Depends on your line of work. In an ambush situation(which LE often encounters), having 60, uninterupted rounds at your disposal when the fight starts could make all the difference especially if you are caught flatfooted. My setup is one surefire in the gun lock, and PMAGs for reloads. Better to be over-prepared than just packing what you "think" will be adequate. Train to be your best, but be prepared to fight at your worst.
Depends on your line of work. In an ambush situation(which LE often encounters), having 60, uninterupted rounds at your disposal when the fight starts could make all the difference especially if you are caught flatfooted. My setup is one surefire in the gun lock, and PMAGs for reloads. Better to be over-prepared than just packing what you "think" will be adequate. Train to be your best, but be prepared to fight at your worst.
Yeah, they have their benefits, especially in law enforcement. I know a lot of officers who don't carry AR mags on their duty belts because they don't expect to ever need their rifle (to each their own, I guess). Then I know others who only carry a spare 20 round mag on their belt.
It's obvious that 60 rounds over 30 can be a big plus for LE's. But for HD I pray that I wouldn't ever need more than 30 rounds in the gun at any given time. I was just saying if you take the price point into consideration, I choose PMAGs.
If you'r gonna go with 60, why not go with the SF 100 rounders? :sarcastic:
Robb Jensen
09-18-11, 21:16
I have over 500 trouble free rounds through my 60 round Surefire mag now. This included PMC Bronze, PMC M193, Fed XM193, Fed M855 and Wolf 55gr. I also noticed that the first 120 rounds were a little difficult to load but after that it was easy and filled to 60 rounds w/o issue.
I played with a couple 60's at a shop last week, and I discovered an interesting thing. They were very tight with insertion on a scar, it was actually pretty difficult but they did drop free without difficulty. however on a acr insertion was easier but they did not drop free. on a colt 6940 it worked flawlessly. I like the idea and the design and I can see the advantage in a 3-gun or le/mil setting but the price is something which definitely makes you take a step back go holy crap.
I played with a couple 60's at a shop last week, and I discovered an interesting thing. They were very tight with insertion on a scar, it was actually pretty difficult but they did drop free without difficulty. however on a acr insertion was easier but they did not drop free. on a colt 6940 it worked flawlessly. I like the idea and the design and I can see the advantage in a 3-gun or le/mil setting but the price is something which definitely makes you take a step back go holy crap.
I've found mine to fit tightly in most mag wells I've tried it in.
Just received mine today from Brownells and will shoot through a full mag this Saturday. It doesn't feel like it adds any significant weight from my 5 minute of handling it.
Is the pictured one on Bravo Company a pre-production design or vice versa? Mine is on the right. They list the weight empty as 6.4 oz, mine is 7.7 oz. The body consists of 3 pieces spot welded. No issues with tightness in my LMT lower.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/SF20MAG5-60-2.jpg
From the pic on the left you can tell what happened about a year before now. They tried to make it fit the HK. Look at the front area where the HK is different (HK near flat mag entrance). I guess they should have had a little more breathing room.
I wondered about a last minute attempt becuase of the funky angle on the lower follower and the wierd tooling for the tower portion near the front.
SCARs seem to have a slight bit tighter mag well, the reason they may not drop freely is the offcenter mass creating higher friction on the contact planes of the mag and lower. These convergent designs require very tight tolerances to even work so I guarantee it is welded consistently with good fixturing. They also probably went for the high side of tolerances to avoid the wobble by the lowered center of mass for the magazine.
Surefire 60rd mag dump. Gemtech HALO and LMT piston upper.
Fun but wasteful!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99i7XeCjUlw
I took mine to the range a couple days ago. Loaded it up four times and let loose. Very reliable for now, hopefully they stay that way. I was using a Mag LULA to download my Mk318 out of it and on the second to last round the follower nose-dived and stuck so I was a little worried, but while shooting it fed properly.
I haven't had any feeding problems but I have had a couple failures to lock open on the last round. Also, the mag's a little tight depending on the lower. In fact I think the only lower I've tried it in that it'll drop from is my Barrett.
snackgunner
09-23-11, 20:19
Id also like to know about this.
Is the pictured one on Bravo Company a pre-production design or vice versa? Mine is on the right. They list the weight empty as 6.4 oz, mine is 7.7 oz. The body consists of 3 pieces spot welded. No issues with tightness in my LMT lower.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/SF20MAG5-60-2.jpg
After reading this entire thread, I am glad I have a pair of 60-round Surefire mags on their way to me. Like someone already pointed out, I was planning on removing my Redi-mag and running just 1 Surefire 60-rounder.
After hearing that 5.45x39.5 has worked for some of you, I am even more excited.
How many 5.45 rounds were you able to load in the Surefire 60-rounder? Thanks.
O
Iraq Ninja
09-24-11, 00:29
These are pretty cool. But do you know how many windowed PMAGs I can buy with $129??? TEN! Hmmm... 60 rounds, 300 rounds, 60 rounds... 300 rounds? I'll pass on the Surefire mag!
The point is all about round number 31 and not how many Magpul Pez dispensers one can buy.
While this may not matter to you and your reason for having mags, we have at least one member here who will never walk again because he could not get to number 31 fast enough.
We have been testing ten of them and I am personally sold on the concept because the design makes it compact and easily handled.
I have yet to meet anyone who has ever been in a firefight who wished for less available ammo in their magazines... :)
Just saying, there are time magazine is not always full.
could start with any number below 30.
For those who want to give the Surefire 60-round mag a shot and can't find it locally, here is where I picked up mine. You can't beat the price either. $93.00 and if you buy more than 2, free shipping.
http://www.interstatearmory.com/earpro-surefire-60-rnd-223-mag.html
*BTW, I am not affiliated with the store, I am just passing along good intel.
O
Iraq Ninja
09-27-11, 23:24
Just saying, there are time magazine is not always full.
could start with any number below 30.
Sorry, I don't read Time Magazine. I think you failed to grasp the brilliance of my post at 0200 in the morning. :)
Seriously, I used a Surefire 60 rounder for an aerial hog hunt this weekend. It worked perfectly in the bird. But, when I went to strip the rounds out by hand, the follower seemed to bind up and rounds would drop out until it starting working again. I was using standard mil green tip. Still, we have not had any failures of the mag in a weapon.
I was also using a suppressor with the mag, but the fouling in the magazine didn't seem to bother it.
GermanSynergy
09-27-11, 23:42
Sorry, I don't read Time Magazine. I think you failed to grasp the brilliance of my post at 0200 in the morning. :)
Seriously, I used a Surefire 60 rounder for an aerial hog hunt this weekend. It worked perfectly in the bird. But, when I went to strip the rounds out by hand, the follower seemed to bind up and rounds would drop out until it starting working again. I was using standard mil green tip. Still, we have not had any failures of the mag in a weapon.
I was also using a suppressor with the mag, but the fouling in the magazine didn't seem to bother it.
You have to love a state where you can hunt swine from a rotary winged aircraft, green tip and a 60 rd mag. :lol::cool:
God bless Texas!:cool:
Rusty_Shackleford
09-28-11, 03:46
An endorsement by LAV doesn't get any better! I was very skeptical but I will be purchasing one for a primary mag for sure. Thanks for taking the time for the eval Larry! And thank you for your service!
Here's what the price nay-sayers and 10 Pmagers are overlooking. No one is advocating that we go out and outfit our entire kit with SF 60- and 100- rounders. These are pretty much limited to three situations:
1)Tactical-whether riding in convoy, conducting abush/counter-ambush, perimeter defense or any other tactical situation, reload time can be make or break for success or failure;
2)Training-there are plenty of us out there that like the challenge and training benefits of three-gun/firearms challenge matches and this will fit the bill in those scenarios where unlimited magazine capacities are allowed. We've all seen the double-stack magazines that are 2 feet long;
3)Never overlook the CDI factor. That is what drives a lot of this industry anyway. There are estimated to be 80,000,000 firearms owners in America. Do you think every one of them is LEO, military or a three-gunner?
I will eventually have a couple. I never jump on the "here it is, new and improved" bandwagen. Always give it some time for those that can afford to test them and, more importantly test them properly, to do so. I'll have these for two reasons: #1 and #3.
Sorry for the pain-killer brainless, post-surgery rant.
Rusty_Shackleford
09-28-11, 04:09
Agreed! As a primary mag 60 rounds is much better than 30 for initial contact. There is no time loss for a mag change and no need for a redi-mag setup to add weight or to get hung up on your equipment. I really don't see a down side here. Having said that I see no reason to need more than one as a primary though........
abn45bravo
09-28-11, 06:11
oef24 did you get your mags yet?
Iraq Ninja
09-28-11, 12:01
You have to love a state where you can hunt swine from a rotary winged aircraft, green tip and a 60 rd mag. :lol::cool:
God bless Texas!:cool:
If you look closely, you can see a piggy by a feeder.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/Iraqninja/pig-buster.jpg
Grease Monkey
09-28-11, 12:09
Sweet!
chosinsteve132
09-28-11, 14:31
Great review LAV. I have a few on order through Brownells now. Can't wait for them to get to me so I can put them through the ringer.
I officially hate you Iraq Ninja. Most hate is generated in this world by jealousy in case anyone wondered why
Just got mine. Look forward to trying it out.
oef24 did you get your mags yet?
I got them. I will be testing mine out this Sunday. I bought them hoping that they will work with my 5.45 upper and on my GO2 rifle.
O
I officially hate you Iraq Ninja. Most hate is generated in this world by jealousy in case anyone wondered why
I agree, that looks like SERIOUS fun!
Put 120 rounds thru mine yesterday doing some drills. No hickups thus far, but the mag does seem a little "unfinished". There are a couple of spots where the welds weren't knocked down, leaving sharp edges. Easily fixed, but kind of unrefined.
We now have the 60rd Mags in stock!
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MAG5-60
C4
I will be using one in a class in November. I will do my best to report on its use. My failure to lock back on the last round seems to have went away. I also ran it on full auto and there were no issues there (other than one of those pudding face smiles).
I was a shop today that usually has decent guns, prices and parts and was surprised to see that they had two 60 rounders on the shelf. I figured for a hundred bucks I'd give one a shot. I hope they are as impressive as everyone believes. ;)
If you look closely, you can see a piggy by a feeder.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/Iraqninja/pig-buster.jpg
Yeah I'm jealous too. Aircraft, Laser, Can, more than 5 rounds, feeder and the light would all be a no go here in VT.:mad:
I agree when it hits the fan having twice the ammo in your gun is all good. Excellent reviews here guys I am ordering one today.
snackgunner
10-19-11, 09:46
What suppressor is that in the pic?
Got my first couple and am (so far) happy. They are lighter than they would appear based on their size. No issues with locking them in the magwell or doing magazine changes. (Was using a RRA lower with LMT upper. Haven't tried my MRP yet.) Won't have a chance to shoot with one for a while due to duty.
Haven't tried any pouches yet. Any suggestions on that one?
I have found them periodically on Rainer Arms...I'm still trying to justify the price though.
The price is a bit hard to justify but I received three as part of a trade and was given a great price on them. Still high but much easier to swallow than pulling out the wallet.
FYI, if you want to protect the baseplate, a 7.62 magpul will fit on it.
PDXoriginal
10-22-11, 12:07
I'll wait for the rumored Magpul 60.
Animal_Mother556
10-22-11, 12:23
I'll wait for the rumored Magpul 60.
First post and he's talking about Magpul! Me smells fanboy. :D
He can wait, I'll use what has proven so far to be a viable product. :D
I think I might be getting one. I really like the application of it as the first mag used.
FYI, if you want to protect the baseplate, a 7.62 magpul will fit on it.
Which magpul item are you refering to? A ranger plate?
Anybody found one less than $120?
No, the original Magpul..the rubber finger pull piece that Magpul makes.
Oh cool, that's what I was hoping to hear. I have a spare one around here somewhere...
Shot through one last month I think it was. We put it on full auto and it cycled very nicely. :)
Im the fatty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A1jKNTSVX4
Shot through one last month I think it was. We put it on full auto and it cycled very nicely. :)
Im the fatty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A1jKNTSVX4
Yeah but us big guys don't get tossed around by 5.56 on FA!
Anybody found one less than $120?
I've read that Surefire has a strict Retail Price policy, and dealers selling below RP are canned. Might explain why so little deviation from retail, as well as supply and demand.
Now if a dealer bought 1K and planned to retire...
Mark
Eurodriver
10-25-11, 07:06
I've read that Surefire has a strict Retail Price policy, and dealers selling below RP are canned. Might explain why so little deviation from retail, as well as supply and demand.
Now if a dealer bought 1K and planned to retire...
Mark
Local dealer has them for $90 but he is not online. They fly off the shelves.
Stretz Tactical Inc
10-25-11, 07:24
I used one in a 3 day class - no problems. Also did a few mag dumps on auto - no hicups.
Spoke with surefire sales; she confirmed that SF dealers and resellers must sell at msrp. If selling below, dealer will lose sf dealer pricing and if dealer is getting product from a distributor, distributor will get in trouble.
Not saying i have not done friends a favor wrt sf 60 but need to be discreet.
Mark
Quite alot of companies are going with a MAP pricing, especially optics. Oh and if I remember correctly dealer price on the 60 is either $71 or $77 can't remember which one exactly.
My impressions using it the first time were pretty good despite doubts.
It's a great mag. It makes the range fun and is a good piece to have in the taco tucked to the sides. I think they could easily be a great primary mag with the sacrifice of the rifle being light weight with perhaps more snappy transitions. I remember thinking it might make the AR-15 feel too awkward or be too heavy to be good, but that wasn't the case.
Would I tell people these are great? tell you what, 20 rounds is a lot, 30 rounds was a lot, 40 rounds kinda is a lot, 60 rounds is a lot. If you choose to use these 60 rounders, you'll have more bullets, and that's as okay as when 20 rounders were taken over by higher capacity 30 rounders in the conventional M-16/M4 systems. Am I saying 60 is the new 30? I actually don't know. Could be right along side them.
Quite alot of companies are going with a MAP pricing, especially optics. Oh and if I remember correctly dealer price on the 60 is either $71 or $77 can't remember which one exactly.
Its the latter for me.
The 6 mags I have purchased and split among a small group of friends have all worked as well as a mag can with the only issue being repeated failure to lock bolt open on last shot in a single carbine. Problem traced to a noticable, overly strong bolt catch spring, which the mag spring has to overcome. Same mag worked 100% in other carbine, so its not the mag.
Bottom line for me, mag is great for keeping in/near HD carbine, and for competition when reloading time is on the clock. Not aware of belt mounted mag holders that work with this mag, although ad copy from Surefire says it fits in double mag carriers. Would have to have a LONG top cover or shock cord to cover and retain mag.
Am not MIL or LEO, so can only speculate as to benefit, which is obvious, as one empty Surefire 60 weighs less than 2 Magpuls, plus less time reloading and being vulnerable with an empty gun.
Not happy with the increased weight, but at least it is centered, so easier to deal with.
Last consideration is even though SF is a high quality company, and I presume mag is made with best quality materials, nothing is infallible and if it goes tits up, due to material failure, feed lips or side walls bending etc, you have just lost possibly twice as much ammo as if the carbine was charged with a 30 round mag.
However, even with Dealer prices, its a steep price for the double capacity, so will limit my ownership to one, and keep practicing reloads to shave time.
Mark
I run a redi-mag on my Colt 6940 for my patrol rifle, seems like this would be a reduction in weight and save some space.
Do you all think it would be worth ditching the redi-mag and adopting this as the single loaded mag? Only concern would be a magazine malfunction on this mag, meaning I would have to make sure to carry extra mags on me.
Normally when I deploy the rifle now, I just take the rifle with two mags on a redi-mag. It's heavy, but its the easiest way to deploy 60 rounds with me and not have to grab extra gear.
Stretz Tactical Inc
10-26-11, 11:43
I run a redi-mag on my Colt 6940 for my patrol rifle, seems like this would be a reduction in weight and save some space.
Do you all think it would be worth ditching the redi-mag and adopting this as the single loaded mag? Only concern would be a magazine malfunction on this mag, meaning I would have to make sure to carry extra mags on me.
Normally when I deploy the rifle now, I just take the rifle with two mags on a redi-mag. It's heavy, but its the easiest way to deploy 60 rounds with me and not have to grab extra gear.
It actually fits in the gun, with a spare mag in the redi mag
I've been T&E'ing the SF 60 round mag for about 4+weeks now. I have left my Redi-mag on my work gun for now. As much as I want to trust the SF mag, my little voice is telling me to stick to standard mags in the gun and use the SF as a backup in my bail out bag.
I've had one of these for about two months now and it's run flawessly in both of the guns I've used it with.
So far I've done a bit of testing with it, and run it at two of our local tactical rifle matches. I can't remember a time when I've had a piece of gear so quickly become one of the mainstays of my competition setup.
I've done a bit of a write up on the magazine at another forum, would it be ok if I posted a link, or is that poor form?
Also, has anyone done any testing of these magazines in a rifle with a lightened bolt carrier?
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk
Anybody found one less than $120?
We offer M4C members discounts on lots of things. Check your PM's for our coupon code. ;)
C4
It actually fits in the gun, with a spare mag in the redi mag
Damn. That would be heavy.
Two is one. One is none.
DeltaSierra
10-26-11, 20:44
We offer M4C members discounts on lots of things. Check your PM's for our coupon code. ;)
C4
I'd like to try one of the Surefire magazines, but if Santa happened to send me a coupon code, I might get one a little sooner... :D
Damn. That would be heavy.
Two is one. One is none.
I've been T&Eing a couple for a few weeks now and it isn't as heavy as you would think. I run a redi-mag also and found that a mag still fits in it with the 60. PMags actually push against it, but TangoDown ARC and USGI mags don't even touch.
I will be running them in the Mike Pannone low-light class in a couple weeks to see how they perfomr. So far they have run perfectly in several different rifles. I have been handing them out to use in qualifications. They have functioned in both semi and FA guns without a hitch.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't have looked at these, but since Surefire makes them, I chose to give them a shot. So far, well worth it. I didn't even get quite the sticker shock from my brass that I thought I would.
I've actually been surprised at how light the thing feels. Fully loaded, it feels lighter than the Tripp Research 52 round Cobramag that I've got, though I haven't put it on a scale or anything.
I'd like to try one of the Surefire magazines, but if Santa happened to send me a coupon code, I might get one a little sooner... :D
PM Sent.
C4
We offer M4C members discounts on lots of things. Check your PM's for our coupon code. ;)
C4
I'd love a coupon code. My needs are much greater than my wallet.
DeltaSierra
10-27-11, 19:06
PM Sent.
C4
Thanks!
Post a pic of the clip! :)
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3774/clipmag1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/clipmag1.jpg/)
coupon codes? hummm..,....
DocHolliday01
10-31-11, 23:05
Grant could I get that code too? Thanks
infidelprodigy
11-01-11, 14:45
+1 Grant on the coupon code. I prefer to support those in the forum family if possible........
Mine works well.
http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/197/9ln.mp4/
Several pages back someone asked if these mags work in an HK 416. I didn't see any replies so I'll provide some feedback.
I've put approx 500 rds through my HK 416 using the Surefire 60 on both semi-auto and full-auto. The magazine worked flawlessly, including prone fire with the mag placed on the ground as a monopod. The bolt locked open every time, and the mag dropped free when empty.
IMHO you can rely on the Surefire 60 mag in an HK 416. I'll let you know if anything comes up that would change that.
Gear hog just had JoeBob Outfitters $30 gift certificates on sale for $15. JBO had the SF 60 round mag on sale for $99. That means I got mine for about $85. I think I did well.
Stretz Tactical Inc
11-28-11, 14:38
Several pages back someone asked if these mags work in an HK 416. I didn't see any replies so I'll provide some feedback.
I've put approx 500 rds through my HK 416 using the Surefire 60 on both semi-auto and full-auto. The magazine worked flawlessly, including prone fire with the mag placed on the ground as a monopod. The bolt locked open every time, and the mag dropped free when empty.
IMHO you can rely on the Surefire 60 mag in an HK 416. I'll let you know if anything comes up that would change that.
I put a mag through a HK 416D with no issues. I did see it hiccup with a scar and Larry said at a recent class that it doesn't work great with a supressed gun. I put 2 mags through a supressed ar with no problems.
I've shot through with one before with a RDIAS, but it wasn't mine. Videos a page or two back.
This one is.
Should get to try it out this weekend. We'll see if it hiccups.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7640/img3330i.jpg
40calfragout
11-30-11, 07:09
hwy just a heads up i bought one before going overseas. got here loaded it up with m855a1 and it fired fine. then i went to reload it and i started getting jams in the part of the mag where it goes from quad stack down to double stack. (will post pics later) the same thing happened with m855 as well. fortunately both uses were on a range. anyone else have this issue?
xrayoneone
11-30-11, 09:40
Yes. That was the exact problem we had when the Surefire rep came out. After the eighth round we started experiencing double feeds and rounds jumping from the magazine. We were shooting the SCAR-L and we had nothing but problems with the mags. However the beat up P mags and aluminum mags worked flawlessly.
Mine works well.
http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/197/9ln.mp4/
The people next to you barely notice. :p
I got to see one of these things on Sunday... but haven't tried one yet. I might go the Joe Bob route.... Sickens me to give Surefire business though.
Mine works well.
http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/197/9ln.mp4/
Nice. You were getting those out slightly fast. ;)
What trigger are you running? SD-3G?
I'm getting one for cost and not sure I want to fork over the money. Or why I'm getting it. :blink:
viperashes
12-16-11, 04:29
I've shot through with one before with a RDIAS, but it wasn't mine. Videos a page or two back.
This one is.
Should get to try it out this weekend. We'll see if it hiccups.
[IMG]http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7640/img3330i.jpg[IMG]
Yep, I think in all, we dumped about 20 mags through an AR with a China Doll lower with an RDIAS and Colt Upper. Absolutely flawless. Semi-auto, Full-auto mag dumps, 3-10 shot bursts, and concievably every variation inbetween. Granted, you know what they say about test samples of one, but the single mag that we had on deck ran absolutely flawlessly every time.
This coming June, we should have about 5-6+ on deck for our next group shoot, and we'll run them through a good stable of various guns to check for function. I don't forsee any issues.
Nice. Still haven't cycled through mine yet. :(
The joy of not having a place to shoot. :bad:
I have two for work. No issues on a function check with 120 round through both.
Dan
viperashes
12-17-11, 03:14
Nice. Still haven't cycled through mine yet. :(
The joy of not having a place to shoot. :bad:
Well, we were using your upper. :lol: June should be fun. We'll have a nice place to do all of our shooting.
chuckhammer
12-17-11, 13:14
For an FA gun I could see the use but for semi-auto it really seems like a novelty item.
Here's my impression of the magazine(copy/pasted from another forum):
A little update. I now got approx 200 rounds through my magazine without faults. I've used both Baurnaul, some reloads, and milspec, and shot it trough both my 20" and one of my carbines. Now that ain't enough to say that these work 100%, but I think it's a good start.
One thing though; I dropped the magazine during a reload drill, and it locked up due to follower tilt. It was approx 40ish rounds in the magazine at that point, and I didn't drop it far, as I was kneeling. The magazine was also dropped down on a sleeping pad, placed over an old carpet lying on a concrete floor. Made me a little skeptic about using that magazine in a operational environment, where you cannot baby your gear as much.
As far as I see it this is the tits for competition use though.
Pic from the range the first time I tested it.
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2531/bilde2z.jpg
My advice to those thinking about buying one; I still see this as a expensive rangetoy, so for the regular AR owner(as if there where any on this forum...) I recommend spending the $ on good 30 round magazines.
For those who still want one; You get them cheapest($95) here (http://andean-inc.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TAOS&Product_Code=MGSFMAG5-60&Category_Code=ar15magazine223).
Interesting... That's a non-ammo specific malf too.
Frak it! I'm going to pick one or two up today. My guy is selling them to me for 82.50 which is guess isn't to bad... Still a lot of cash for a magazine that I will prolly never use other than at the range a couple times a year. :dirol:
I bought one as a Christmas present to myself. I found it for $90, so I jumped on it. It'll be the primary mag for my patrol rifle. I'm going to run it hard before it goes on duty with me.
It seems like a good piece of gear, and has a definite role in LE applications. I want to make sure it works before I trust it enough with my life. Seems like the major complaints are followers jamming, and it might be a bit fragile. Any other real issues to worry about?
Anyone experience any problems with leaving the mag loaded for extended periods yet? I loaded mine and have left it that way to see if it messes up the feed lips.
Anyone experience any problems with leaving the mag loaded for extended periods yet? I loaded mine and have left it that way to see if it messes up the feed lips.
Leaving mags loaded won't mess up feed lips. If a mag will have feed lip issues, that'll become apparent from usage.
I just put 240 rounds through my SF-60 today. I had no issues. I ordered this load of ammo on stripper clips to make things easier. The first four stripper clips were easy. The last two took some effort.
The magazine fed flawlessly and locked the bolt back each time.
Hehe, SgtJosh. I ran my surefire magazine yesterday too, with my battlemags.
My surefire had three loads go through it of WPA steel case with out problems. Locking back each time. Not a real definitive test. But Im reasonably satisfied.
Here is video of a pre-produciton 100 rd magazine:
3 cycles with one feed issue:
www.TexasgunTrust.com's Surefire 100rd Mag on New Years eve at the Impact Zone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXsyWSmLnts)
Cagemonkey
01-03-12, 18:38
Bought one this weekend for $120. Upon loading it by hand, I had doubts since the rounds didn't index as strongly as I thought they should. Left it loaded for a day and then went to the range. Fired about 100 rounds with no stoppages and the bolt locked back every time. So far, so good.
Here is video of a pre-produciton 100 rd magazine:
3 cycles with one feed issue:
www.TexasgunTrust.com's Surefire 100rd Mag on New Years eve at the Impact Zone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXsyWSmLnts)
That thing is huge!
It looks like something rescued from the porn donkey rescue ranch.
The people next to you barely notice. :p
I was thinking the same thing. The person closest only looks when you stop.
I just reloaded mine. :cray: $$$
It looks like something rescued from the porn donkey rescue ranch.
Is a MagPull really needed on that thing? :stop:
jklaughrey
01-23-12, 10:39
I really, really didn't want to like the SF60 magazine, but since I got one from a member here for a steal I figured why not. If anything I could resell it or give it to a ninja right? Well have since ran roughly 2k through it in a month. I did run 600 in one session to attempt to get a malf, but nothing. I have now since ordered 3 more from my SF dealer and will be donating them to our local PD. I'll probably pick up another for myself, but I think the 60 brings a good balance of increased initial firepower upon contact, coupled with design and ergonomics being made so as to not be ungainly and limiting in its employment like other Hi-Cap magazine/drum systems.
As with all things, these are tools and magazines are a disposable item,so on that note make sure you have loaded spares and repair, replace, or rebuild as necessary.
"A good mag is the one that works when you need, anything else is a paperweight"
WilsonCombatFan
01-23-12, 14:49
Every single review i hear on these is 100% positive.Im gonna break down and get one.Then i will do a full-auto mag dump,just for you guys :)
I put 180 rounds of Herters steel cased and 180 rounds of XM193 through the SF 60 last week. No malfunctions to report and the bolt locked back each time on empty. It seemed like I was shooting forever between reloads, which was nice. It's going on my patrol rifle as my primary magazine now.
Surefire 60 round full auto mag dump out of a di black rain ordnance 7.5" ar15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgSUtAe2bWU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Every single review i hear on these is 100% positive.Im gonna break down and get one.Then i will do a full-auto mag dump,just for you guys :)
Did two f/a. No bs. After that, had a lo pro gas bock get wanky on me. So I dont blame the mag. So... I like it, so far...
ETA: Waiting to get gun fixed so I have a control.
I have actually heard mixed reviews from numerous sources, many that I actually give good creditability too also. I will say that I put over 1K through my test mag and it ran 100%. I didn't do any drop tests etc, but it did load to full capacity no problem and ran 100% in the 1K of rounds. I have ran double cinch, Redi-Mag set ups and despite being the lightest set up I really don't have a preference of running this added weight on the rifle for my particular purposes. I can see some situations where the mag has practical but perhaps limited or specific applications but again for my purposes it is not my preference. However, I will not be getting rid of the mag any time soon either. :D
Here is my review on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz488scKXGk
Is a MagPull really needed on that thing? :stop:
Yes. The purpose is to protect the magazine from damage when you drop it on the floor.
They damn sure aren't a fashion statement . . . lol
I try to stick to mags that don't break from a 5 foot drop. Surefire mag has passed so far.
The 60 rounders are on sale right now at BCM for $90. SHOT Show special.. Get em while they are $39 cheaper. :cool:
So, has anyone ran some .300BLK thru one of these?
Yes. The purpose is to protect the magazine from damage when you drop it on the floor.
They damn sure aren't a fashion statement . . . lol
Well that makes sense. What's the dry weight on the 100rnd mags?
Trying to think of a tactical use for it. Maybe for a prolonged static defense when a crew served is not available? Otherwise it looks like it would be awkward to move around with it.
Plus you can take the mag out when empty and use it for hand to hand like a billy club :D
I have one of these coming. Hope to try it this weekend.:rolleyes:
I have one of these coming. Hope to try it this weekend.:rolleyes:
They work better with the red action spring :D
I picked up (2) 60 rounders from Joe Bob Outfitters last month.
$99.95 Each - with FREE shipping.
I don't know if anyone's posted this yet.
Just a heads up if anyone is interested:
LINK: http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Surefire_60_Round_High_Capacity_5_56_223_AR15_M16_p/surefire-mag60.htm
blasternank
01-31-12, 20:09
Thanks for the review. I need to save my pennies and get me one.
They work better with the red action spring :D
I sure hope so... I'll have $90 tied up in this thing. If I get it by Saturday, I'm going to wear it out.
They work better with the red action spring :D
What is the red action spring?
What is the red action spring?
He's torturing me with those nonsense SpringCo CS action springs. Nothing to do with the SF mag. :p
Either this or the 100-round will go on my 'to be added' list. :)
Picked mine up yesteday. Loaded it up to a full 60. Gets stiff to load at 18 rounds then loosens up again.
Unloaded it with the UMT. Doesn't offload like a USGI, but that doesn't mean shit. We're going to run it tomorrow.... if it works good in semi, I'll get it under a full auto gun next.
FYI:
This video shows the SF 60 rd magazine assembly.
It shows the multiple spring arrangement. Handy to know and understand. Its also why it loads the way it does (changes in stiffness while loading):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y0w3M_F158
FYI:
This video shows the SF 60 rd magazine assembly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y0w3M_F158
Cool. It's friggin IRRITATING when douchers test shit with dog shit ammo. :rolleyes:
How do we know if the malf was mag or ammo related?
Yeah! I have a $100 mag... now let me fill it with the worst ammo I can find!! :agree:
Just picked up a couple of these on Mon. Thought that they were more of a novelty than anything, but most guys I know are getting pretty good performance with them. I did see one problem at a class on a gun with a can, but when we looked at it, the ammo was filthy and we are pretty sure that was the culprit.
If these run like I expect I will grab four more and call it done.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/183f193d.jpg
I like the thing... but the number of moving parts makes me a little nervous.
I bought one a couple of months ago have only loaded and fired it 3 times, 180 rounds, so far it has been perfect. I got it for 3 gun, no more reloads unless it is a real big stage. I did have issues with Wolf ammo hanging up the follower, but that doesn't bother me, I just won't use Wolf in it.
Are you guys finding that loading these and allowing them to seat over a period of time is worth while? I've never found the need to do it on AR mags, but I do find it helpful on Glock mags...
Just curious if it would make a difference with this spring setup.
I finally have one on order. But I'm a bit timid in its use for anything but classes or rifle matches, specifically after jamming up two of them real bad at the Vickers Home Defense class.
Suppressed we seized two of them up.
I finally have one on order. But I'm a bit timid in its use for anything but classes or rifle matches, specifically after jamming up two of them real bad at the Vickers Home Defense class.
Suppressed we seized two of them up.
Forgot about the second one... I just remember S's and how filthy the ammo was when we took it out... Do you remember if it was frang? I thought it was Black Hills but I could be mistaken...
Suppressed we seized two of them up.
Yeah... I have a really fast bolt slinging, over-gassed gun to try mine on.
I have a feeling my 14.5" middy, on the otherhand will run it like a champ.
That was before switching to frangible. Standard M193 I believe. I've got some pmags that have been run for 10K rounds suppressed and not choked. That mag was basically brand new, same with the second.
I'm not worried un-suppressed but I have a feeling the mechanism, and it's complexity, may be prone to faster fouling when suppressed.
I'm not worried un-suppressed but I have a feeling the mechanism, and it's complexity, may be prone to faster fouling when suppressed.
I think the follower just doesn't keep up with the fast bolt speed of suppressed shooting.
I'll throw my can on my slow cycling middy upper and run that on a Full Auto lower... I bet it doesn't skip a beat.
I posted this @ NFA Talk as well:
I need to chime in on this thread. We just finished a T&E on these recently during a department rifle qualification (6 days). They provided us with two mags for testing:
Let me clarify the rifle/ammo:
Colt M4's (auto) with QuickSilver 556 titanium suppressors;
Federal 55 grain Nosler/Ballistic Tip T223F duty ammo;
Winchester white box 55gr FMJ practice ammo;
We ran both semi-auto and then full-mag dumps in auto. The first two mags went fine, then everything went down hill; the follower would hang-up about halfway through a mag, be it semi or auto, so you'd end up with a paperweight.
We stripped down both mags. It all friction-fits together, if you will. Usually in a magazine, the top of the spring will have a "pigtail" where it will actually thread through a small hole in the base of the follower: these are not made that way and they seemed to disengage/bind much easier because of it. There's a second flat "follower" separating the two springs, one "north" and the other "south" of where the mag bottlenecks into its quad-stack load pattern.
I had one extra M4 as a back-up without a can and I meant to try it out on that one but never got around to it. Surefire's video demo was done without any can also and seemed to work fine, so you be the judge.
Surefire was receptive to our input and said they'd look into it FWIW.
Magpul will not comment on their pending mag, and I'll bet they've run into similar reliability issues regarding cans on rifles/large capacity magazines. I'm sure they want to fix it before releasing it.
I think eventually it will work. It's my opinion that it's not made for suppressed rifles/carbines, but your YMMV.
Hit me up if anything's unclear...
For got to mention, go to Quicksilver Manufacturing's face page. One of our guys is doing a full p-mag dump with one of the described M4's...
Best regards,
Chris
I posted this @ NFA Talk as well:
I need to chime in on this thread. We just finished a T&E on these recently during a department rifle qualification (6 days). They provided us with two mags for testing:
Let me clarify the rifle/ammo:
Colt M4's (auto) with QuickSilver 556 titanium suppressors;
Federal 55 grain Nosler/Ballistic Tip T223F duty ammo;
Winchester white box 55gr FMJ practice ammo;
We ran both semi-auto and then full-mag dumps in auto. The first two mags went fine, then everything went down hill; the follower would hang-up about halfway through a mag, be it semi or auto, so you'd end up with a paperweight.
We stripped down both mags. It all friction-fits together, if you will. Usually in a magazine, the top of the spring will have a "pigtail" where it will actually thread through a small hole in the base of the follower: these are not made that way and they seemed to disengage/bind much easier because of it. There's a second flat "follower" separating the two springs, one "north" and the other "south" of where the mag bottlenecks into its quad-stack load pattern.
I had one extra M4 as a back-up without a can and I meant to try it out on that one but never got around to it. Surefire's video demo was done without any can also and seemed to work fine, so you be the judge.
Surefire was receptive to our input and said they'd look into it FWIW.
Magpul will not comment on their pending mag, and I'll bet they've run into similar reliability issues regarding cans on rifles/large capacity magazines. I'm sure they want to fix it before releasing it.
I think eventually it will work. It's my opinion that it's not made for suppressed rifles/carbines, but your YMMV.
Hit me up if anything's unclear...
For got to mention, go to Quicksilver Manufacturing's face page. One of our guys is doing a full p-mag dump with one of the described M4's...
Best regards,
Chris
I have one and it has been 100% so far, Why do you think a suppressor makes a difference? The only issues I have had was when using Wolf ammo, I couldn't even get all 60 in it without it binding but with brass cases no problems.
Mine went over 700 rounds suppressed and unsuppressed no issues. Of course, I wasn't using trash ammo. I was shooting M193, PMC Bronze Line, M855, etc...
I have one and it has been 100% so far, Why do you think a suppressor makes a difference? The only issues I have had was when using Wolf ammo, I couldn't even get all 60 in it without it binding but with brass cases no problems.
I wonder if it has something to do with back pressure through the can and back into the mag (it did get that mag really dirty blowing junk back into it).
I forgot to add in my OP that the M855 didn't work either (a guy I work with gave it a shot recently with that ammo and it tanked). FMJ, JHP....really doesn't matter.
It's either the can or the possibility that the follower/springs move out of alignment and then bind.
I think it CAN work, just needs tweaking is all...
Best regards,
Chris
I wonder if it has something to do with back pressure through the can and back into the mag (it did get that mag really dirty blowing junk back into it).
I forgot to add in my OP that the M855 didn't work either (a guy I work with gave it a shot recently with that ammo and it tanked). FMJ, JHP....really doesn't matter.
It's either the can or the possibility that the follower/springs move out of alignment and then bind.
I think it CAN work, just needs tweaking is all...
Best regards,
Chris
Did you say that you got 2 mags worth out OK before it started to fail? If so that is how long it took to get the mag dirty enough to start to fail. May be the problem.
Yep, about two full mags worth, alternating between semi/auto. I think it's a combo between dirt and how the parts actually fit together.
xrayoneone
02-20-12, 21:51
I wonder if it has something to do with back pressure through the can and back into the mag (it did get that mag really dirty blowing junk back into it).
I forgot to add in my OP that the M855 didn't work either (a guy I work with gave it a shot recently with that ammo and it tanked). FMJ, JHP....really doesn't matter.
It's either the can or the possibility that the follower/springs move out of alignment and then bind.
I think it CAN work, just needs tweaking is all...
Best regards,
Chris
Surefire recognizes that there are problems with their 60 round magazines and suppressors. I don't know the specifics but they are aware of it. A buddy and I talked to them regarding results we had previously posted here and they said it was firing suppressed that caused the problems.
We've run three additional magazines through various weapons and have had no problems but I'm not 100% convinced the magazine will be reliable enough in the long run.
Spent some time at the range with both magazines this weekend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypqjJUXteNg
I think the big difference that the can makes is that it over gasses the weapon which increases the cyclic rate and also blows a lot of debri into the magazine that gums things up.
the mags MUST be cleaned after suppressed use.
Thanks for all the test results gentlemen. It sounds like the Surefire 60 round magazines run well on carbines without suppressors. I am going to buy two of the 60 round magazines for testing and request department approval for personal purchase.
I have 300 rounds through my dedicated suppressed rifle so far without issue, but it is significantly cleaner than a normal suppressed upper.
Just ran mine through 500 rounds of M855, non-suppressed. Only issue I had was one failure to lock to the rear on an empty magazine.
I'll be putting about 1500 rounds through my gun next week and will do everything I can to use the SF60 but magazine changes are a part of class so don't know how much I'll get to play with it.
I used my 60 rounder all season at about 10 3 gun matches, it has not had a single issue. I have not even taken it apart yet. The worst thing I can say is if you drop it with half or so capacity, you will want to dump the rounds out and reload, they get all jumbled up when it hits the ground.
Five_Point_Five_Six
12-01-12, 19:20
I was under the impression that LAV and many others are no longer endorsing the 60 rd Surefire mags?
I was under the impression that LAV and many others are no longer endorsing the 60 rd Surefire mags?
You are correct.
You are correct.
Why does Mr. Vickers no longer endorse the Surefire mag ?
Why does Mr. Vickers no longer endorse the Surefire mag ?
I do not feel that I should speak for Mr. Vickers. Maybe he will chime in here at some point. I can say that a comment was made at one of his classes I was attending.
I do not feel that I should speak for Mr. Vickers. Maybe he will chime in here at some point. I can say that a comment was made at one of his classes I was attending.
Thank you. I will hold off on my purchase.
I do not feel that I should speak for Mr. Vickers. Maybe he will chime in here at some point. I can say that a comment was made at one of his classes I was attending.
He also mentioned it in another recent thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1437687&postcount=15
-Jax
Honorthecall81
12-01-12, 22:58
If you humped around with loaded 60 rounded mags, how much fatigue could be created from the extra weapon weight? Does the extra firepower justify the weight? I have no experience with these so I'm just picking people's brains thats all.
He also mentioned it in another recent thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1437687&postcount=15
-Jax
That cinched it for me.
Thanks
I have had very good luck with my 60 rounder, not a single malfunction in hundreds of rounds during 3 gun matches, never having to reload is an advantage. That being said my home defense AR carries a Magpul 30 rounder, I don't see any situation where I could possibly need more rounds than that, for that matter a 10 rounder would probably be more than enough.
I just picked up a brand new one and shot 120 rounds through it today. Zero issues. I mostly plan on using it as a 3-gun mag but at least its starting out flawless.
That cinched it for me.
Thanks
You're welcome.
-Jax
Did magpul give up on the 40 PMag?
Did magpul give up on the 40 PMag?
Maybe SHOT 2013? Or 2031?
Or maybe we will have moe grips for the phase plasma rifle in the 40-watt range by then...
Coal Dragger
01-22-13, 16:59
I posted this @ NFA Talk as well:
I need to chime in on this thread. We just finished a T&E on these recently during a department rifle qualification (6 days). They provided us with two mags for testing:
Let me clarify the rifle/ammo:
Colt M4's (auto) with QuickSilver 556 titanium suppressors;
Federal 55 grain Nosler/Ballistic Tip T223F duty ammo;
Winchester white box 55gr FMJ practice ammo;
We ran both semi-auto and then full-mag dumps in auto. The first two mags went fine, then everything went down hill; the follower would hang-up about halfway through a mag, be it semi or auto, so you'd end up with a paperweight.
We stripped down both mags. It all friction-fits together, if you will. Usually in a magazine, the top of the spring will have a "pigtail" where it will actually thread through a small hole in the base of the follower: these are not made that way and they seemed to disengage/bind much easier because of it. There's a second flat "follower" separating the two springs, one "north" and the other "south" of where the mag bottlenecks into its quad-stack load pattern.
I had one extra M4 as a back-up without a can and I meant to try it out on that one but never got around to it. Surefire's video demo was done without any can also and seemed to work fine, so you be the judge.
Surefire was receptive to our input and said they'd look into it FWIW.
Magpul will not comment on their pending mag, and I'll bet they've run into similar reliability issues regarding cans on rifles/large capacity magazines. I'm sure they want to fix it before releasing it.
I think eventually it will work. It's my opinion that it's not made for suppressed rifles/carbines, but your YMMV.
Hit me up if anything's unclear...
For got to mention, go to Quicksilver Manufacturing's face page. One of our guys is doing a full p-mag dump with one of the described M4's...
Best regards,
Chris
I hate to be the new guy that resurrects dead threads...but I also experienced some similar issues to you regarding follower hangup with my Surefire 60 round magazine. Mine did this about halfway through the magazine (26 rounds in if I recall) consistently. It would feed with good spring/follower pressure at first then get weaker and finally hangup leaving rounds loose in the double stack portion of the magazine, and more rounds sitting in the bottom hung up with the larger follower.
Given the current climate and panic buying of everything I decided to see if I could fix this myself. I probably voided the warranty, but don't really care.
So I took the magazine apart per the included instructions and inspected everything. The inside of the magazine body was clear of anything that would cause undue friction or binding, and both the followers were free of any burrs or other defects that I could detect. For those who have not taken one of these apart it is a real treat, there are three springs, two followers, a metal cup to index the two larger springs with one another, and an aluminum stamping that is curved to match the magazine body and acts as a divider inside the magazine where the quad stack starts all the way to the bottom. This aluminum divider also acts as a guide for both followers and all the springs, which telescope down on top of and around this part. The two large springs in this magazine should have enough oomph to launch small children into the air, so weak spring and follower pressure was a strange issue to have.
The aluminum divider/follower guide/spring guide is the culprit. For those of you with one of these mags, take it apart and run your fingers over the spine of this part. You'll find that this little cheap ass aluminum stamping has small "steps" in it as it completes its curve, only one of them is an issue since it faces opposite the direction of spring and follower travel. Take the big follower and the springs and run it over this spot and you'll find the spring wants to hangup and so does the big follower. Which is exactly what is going on in the magazine. The mechanism works to this point feeding rounds and then the big follower and big mainsprings get caught. The smaller follower and the spring that powers it continue to work since they don't seem to hangup but you now have weak weak follower pressure, no way is it going to keep up with a fast moving bolt carrier group.
Fortunately once this little issue was identified, and because I have nothing to lose I got out a nice small, fairly fine metal file, and removed and smoothed out this little step. Then I reassembled everything loaded up 60 rounds, and stripped them out by hand as a test run. Holy crap what a difference in performance. No more weak follower pressure, none, in fact it is really really strong from the first round to the last round. Nice and consistent.
I don't know if this 5 minute fix will work for everyone, and frankly none of these mags at $90-$100/unit should need it but there it is. For what these mags go for this part should be made of a highly polished coated stainless steel stamping. Probably greatly improve performance.
I hate to be the new guy that resurrects dead threads...but I also experienced some similar issues to you regarding follower hangup with my Surefire 60 round magazine. Mine did this about halfway through the magazine (26 rounds in if I recall) consistently. It would feed with good spring/follower pressure at first then get weaker and finally hangup leaving rounds loose in the double stack portion of the magazine, and more rounds sitting in the bottom hung up with the larger follower.
Given the current climate and panic buying of everything I decided to see if I could fix this myself. I probably voided the warranty, but don't really care.
So I took the magazine apart per the included instructions and inspected everything. The inside of the magazine body was clear of anything that would cause undue friction or binding, and both the followers were free of any burrs or other defects that I could detect. For those who have not taken one of these apart it is a real treat, there are three springs, two followers, a metal cup to index the two larger springs with one another, and ano aluminum stamping that is curved to match the magazine body and acts as a divider inside the magazine where the quad stack starts all the way to the bottom. This aluminum divider also acts as a guide for both followers and all the springs, which telescope down on top of and around this part. The two large springs in this magazine should phave enough oomph to launch small children into the air, so weak spring and follower pressure was a strange issue to have.
The aluminum divider/follower guide/spring guide is the culprit. For those of you with one of these mags, take it apart and run your fingers over the spine of this part. You'll find that this little cheap ass aluminum stamping has small "steps" in it as it completes its curve, only one of them is an issue since it faces opposite the direction of spring and follower travel. Take the big follower and the springs and run it over this spot and you'll find the spring wants to hangup and so does the big follower. Which is exactly what is going on in the magazine. The mechanism works to this point feeding rounds and then the big follower and big mainsprings get caught. The smaller follower and the spring that powers it continue to work since they don't seem to hangup but you now have weak weak follower pressure, no way is it going to keep up with a fast moving bolt carrier group.
Fortunately once this little issue was identified, and because I have nothing to lose I got out a nice small, fairly fine metal file, and removed and smoothed out this little step. Then I reassembled everything loaded up 60 rounds, and stripped them out by hand as a test run. Holy crap what a difference in performance. No more weak follower pressure, none, in fact it is really really strong from the first round to the last round. Nice and consistent.
I don't know if this 5 minute fix will work for everyone, and frankly none of these mags at $90-$100/unit should need it but there it is. For what these mags go for this part should be made of a highly polished coated stainless steel stamping. Probably greatly improve performance.
Thanks for the great post. I've got a couple 60s that I haven't opened. This makes me want to open one and give it a shot.
This thread reminded me I should sell the pair I have! :blink:
This thread reminded me I should sell the pair I have! :blink:
I did, for 400.00! I don't miss them at all.
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