View Full Version : Knight's PDW search fu
SperlingPE
07-14-11, 12:47
I cannot find the thread about the KAC PDW semi auto.
The thread was about possibly offering this for civilian purchase.
I had replied a couple of times but not checked on it for awhile (quite awhile)
So is this dead?
Waiting for something?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-14-11, 13:20
I think this is the thread. It was in the GD forum for some reason.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25107
KAC was kind enough to let us run a mag full through this full auto at the factory tour in March.
It's a blast, but I doubt this will ever be available for civilian purchase. It would have to make financial sense to produce to this and to do so would probably require a large volume of units to be purchased by some division of the US or foreign military. I may be way off base here, however, but this was the impression that I got during the tour back in March.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-19-11, 20:54
I think Kev B said that 1000 units would get it made, something like a $3k price tag, IIRC. Comon' Lottery!
SpartanDCI
07-21-11, 00:23
Outside of a legit H&K MP7A1 SF made in the States, the Knight pdw is a definite cool gun to have.
H&K traditionally would not think of making a production run unless 10,000 units could be made and sold economically. H&K USA's predecessor had the 90 series semis made in the late 1970's and 80's based on this large number production run model. The problem was always the Dollar to German Mark exchange rate screwing up the deal. H&K originally intended to made the weapon in a US factory as far back as 1981. That has never happened until lately with the various pistol and MR556 designs.
Knight's has always been primary U.S. Government contractor, and unless they lose all the business built on their SR25/M110 et al systems, I do not think they will ever free up manufacturing capability to bring the PDW to the civilian market. If you have ever fired one, even in semi......you would want one! The other thing would be having the ammo available in enough quantity at a price that would not be exhorbitant to shoot.......remember the sh*t we 5.7mm shooters went through when the FN PS90's hit the market?
I wish Knight would make the PDW in a semi rifle form with the dimpled barrel and folding stock.......at a price well under $3K. While they were at it, I wish they would build some semi Stoner 63A carbines in a BATFE approved form, along with some closed bolt Stoner 96's............
Wether it is a pipe dream or reality would depend on many different things.........most of all whether our economy gets out of the basement........and we can get most of our people back to work.
:mad:
Sad that you can buy 4.6HK ammo on midwayusa...:(
I hope that KAC PDW comes out someday.:(
I think a KAC PDW in 300BLK would be great. Since the round uses standard 5.56 mags, theoretically the system would just have to be adapted, and you wouldn't have to worry about bringing another cartridge to market.
Hmmmm... I am very interested in the .300BLK as well, but if the PDW was changed to that it would make the whole thing bigger. I still think there's a place for the 6x35mm.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-25-11, 01:15
The 300 BlackOut would make it a folding stock SCAR or ACR. Though the 300BlackOut I think does intrude into the envelope where the PDW operates, it doesn't have the longer range ability that the 6x35 has.
The 300 BlackOut would make it a folding stock SCAR or ACR. Though the 300BlackOut I think does intrude into the envelope where the PDW operates, it doesn't have the longer range ability that the 6x35 has.
Agreed.
I can't believe nobody has contracted at least 1000 PDWs yet. Seems to me it would be a perfect mini carbine for police officers and SWAT teams.
I so would get one, but my damn state doesnt allow SBR's or SBS's, but we can have Suppressors, AOW's and DD's:fie:. If they did one as a AOW, I would so be in!!!
Whether it is a pipe dream or reality would depend on many different things.........most of all whether our economy gets out of the basement........and we can get most of our people back to work.
:mad:The ironic thing is that the economy itself is doing as badly as it is because there aren't enough US companies making the things that we the people want to buy, so it seems that US gun manufacturing is one of the few industries paying attention to that. Waiting for the economy to improve BEFORE making something that people want to buy and thus people would be employed in making it is like waiting to lose weight before starting an exercise routine.
At very least they could be making money cranking out 6x35 barrels and bolts--they get the money, we get what we want, everyone wins and nobody has to stand around waiting looking stupid in the meantime.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-26-11, 22:35
The ironic thing is that the economy itself is doing as badly as it is because there aren't enough US companies making the things that we the people want to buy, so it seems that US gun manufacturing is one of the few industries paying attention to that. Waiting for the economy to improve BEFORE making something that people want to buy and thus people would be employed in making it is like waiting to lose weight before starting an exercise routine.
At very least they could be making money cranking out 6x35 barrels and bolts--they get the money, we get what we want, everyone wins and nobody has to stand around waiting looking stupid in the meantime.
They had a 6x35 upper for a standard AR lower at the SHOT show. I think Kev said it takes a tweak to P-mags to get them to work with the shorter cartridge. I saw cut a step, come out with the PDW 6x35 mags and make a mag block for standard AR lowers. Not super sexy but would get the round and the mags out there
If the US gov is afraid of all of us right wingers, why not get 1000 of these for proctive details for congressmen and judges.... so all of us right wingers can buy clones of the SBRs ;)
300 AAC BLACKOUT ammo is 2.26 OAL (same as 5.56mm), and standard magazines are too large for the KAC PDW.
If they wanted to use more common ammo, 221 Fireball would be the answer.
How about .30 carbine for length that would fit? Or maybe 7.62Tokarev, that should scream from a longer than pistol barrel and be cheap to feed.
Just thinking outside the box (magazine) a bit.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-28-11, 01:56
How about .30 carbine for length that would fit? Or maybe 7.62Tokarev, that should scream from a longer than pistol barrel and be cheap to feed.
Just thinking outside the box (magazine) a bit.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
30 carbine is much better now that HP rounds are available, but the key to the PDW was it had a fragmention distance for its rounds longer than a similar barreled 5.56. A step up ballisticly from 30carbine rounds.
Not far off there though, some people call the M1 carbine the first PDW. I've wondered why Troy hasn't made a chassis for the M1 carbine, even emailed them about it and never got a response. The chassis and the new rounds would really breath some life into the old guns.
Part of what is nice about an M1C is that it is CA legal and does not scare the sheep.
A chassis would be nice if someone had a stash of free guns, but to buy an M1 Carbine and a chassis would be more than buying an AR.
As cool a gun as it is, it is obsolete if you have to buy it for full price.
But I think they are *WAY* better than a Thompson 45 which is just terrible.
Just curious, what makes a Thompson less preferable to you? The weight? Or the price?
The weight, length, and high bore axis.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-31-11, 22:04
Just curious, what makes a Thompson less preferable to you? The weight? Or the price?
You mean a Thompson submachine gun in 45ACP? Open bolt firing is not a feature I'm looking for either.
Hey guys getting a bit off track.:p
I totally forgot about the 6x35 AR.
What happened to the SR635??
I'd be perfectly happy with that if the PDW is not foreseeable in the near future.
Please make the SR635 a reality!!
What happened to the SR635??
I'd be perfectly happy with that if the PDW is not foreseeable in the near future.
Please make the SR635 a reality!!
It is for sale - probably just in larger quantities though.
It is for sale - probably just in larger quantities though.
I could have sworn they said that the PDW needed a large order to become available to civilians but that they were releasing the SR635 in the meantime...:confused:
A guy on my forum made his own in 300 BLK:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=74940
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6052/dsc0003sg.jpg
A guy on my forum made his own in 300 BLK:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=74940
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6052/dsc0003sg.jpg
Dang thats pretty sweet.:)
But like someone already said the 2 calibers have different roles. The .300BLK just needs to be suppressed IMHO. Thats why I'm planning on the Spike's Tactical Compressor in .300BLK when it comes out.
For me atleast the 6x35 is much more appealing without a suppressor as a super compact M4 (or more?) equivalent.
As far as I know, the 635 exists - have you tried to order one and were turned down?
As far as I know, the 635 exists - have you tried to order one and were turned down?
No, how would you order one and can you even get mags and ammo?
I would ask Kevin Boland how to order one - if it should be from KAC or Lawman's. But it may be that they want a minimum quantity.
post tensioned
08-01-11, 19:15
That is a sweet rifle in 300BLK :D...
The SR-635 is a department only upper with custom made Magpul p-mags. I don't foresee them selling the upper alone commercially, but you never know. I will try to find out a minimum department order needed, but right now you would have to buy mags and ammo through KAC.
I bet you could make ammo without too much difficulty.
30 carbine is much better now that HP rounds are available, but the key to the PDW was it had a fragmention distance for its rounds longer than a similar barreled 5.56. A step up ballisticly from 30carbine rounds.
Not far off there though, some people call the M1 carbine the first PDW.
I do think the M1 carbine is the first real PDW.
Neither the 5.7 nor the HK 4.6mm fragment in any of the tests that I have seen, I mention these as they are the only deployed PDWs I am aware of besides guns in 9mm and 5.56.
IMHO the .30 carbine with good ammo, such as the Gold Dot or the DPX loads, has a far better wound ballistics potential than either of the micro calibers. In a well designed BT spitzer that displays early yaw, and such bullets are easy to come by in .30cal, I think the carbine would have decent wound ballistics even without fragmentation.
While the Knight's 6mm would seem to be a step up from the .30 carbine load, it would only be so if one could actually get ammo for it.
I do think the M1 carbine is the first real PDW.
Neither the 5.7 nor the HK 4.6mm fragment in any of the tests that I have seen, I mention these as they are the only deployed PDWs I am aware of besides guns in 9mm and 5.56.
IMHO the .30 carbine with good ammo, such as the Gold Dot or the DPX loads, has a far better wound ballistics potential than either of the micro calibers. In a well designed BT spitzer that displays early yaw, and such bullets are easy to come by in .30cal, I think the carbine would have decent wound ballistics even without fragmentation.
While the Knight's 6mm would seem to be a step up from the .30 carbine load, it would only be so if one could actually get ammo for it.
The M1 Carbine had a barrel length of 18". How would it perform in 8-10"?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-01-11, 20:54
And of course, the MIL guys can't use HP ammo, so the 6x36 really shines then.
1900fps for the M1 Carbine with 18 inch barrel sound right? I've never seen M1 Carbine SBR ballistics.
Here's hoping the world gets peaceful enough for KAC to beg us to buy PDWs.
EDIT: Jeez, I just finished the post and thought I'd look around and put "m1 carbine SBR" into google and it found this post, 10 seconds after I had posted it. freaky.
The M1 Carbine had a barrel length of 18". How would it perform in 8-10"?
The carbine was loaded for the 16" barrel specifically. I think if loaded for best effect from shorter barrels it would do better than it does.
I had a friend with a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine that he used to plink at coyotes. IIRC Winchester HSP ammo would run like 1600-1700fps from that gun.
My dad, and several other Vietnam vets I know, used shortened M2 carbines early in the war, with the paratrooper stock from the M1a1 installed. They thought very highly of the set-up.
The carbine was loaded for the 16" barrel specifically. I think if loaded for best effect from shorter barrels it would do better than it does.
I had a friend with a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine that he used to plink at coyotes. IIRC Winchester HSP ammo would run like 1600-1700fps from that gun.
My dad, and several other Vietnam vets I know, used shortened M2 carbines early in the war, with the paratrooper stock from the M1a1 installed. They thought very highly of the set-up.
Theres a short article on that Ruger Blackhawk on The Box of Truth website. Looks like a fun gun. Lets see 6x35KAC in a revolver!! haha :D
A guy on my forum made his own in 300 BLK:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=74940
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6052/dsc0003sg.jpg
Yeah this is really awesome. After putting some thought into it this makes more sense then a SR635.
I still really hope the KAC PDW comes out though!!:(
turdbocharged
08-12-11, 14:53
My dad, and several other Vietnam vets I know, used shortened M2 carbines early in the war, with the paratrooper stock from the M1a1 installed. They thought very highly of the set-up.
I have had experience with both rack grade ww2/korean era M1 Carbines (from camp perry), and the new reproduction by Auto Ordinance. My opinion is that they are junk. It is hard to find reliable mags, and even with them the weapons can be finiky with certain ammo. I've only ever used factory store bought ammo.
To compound my belief in their worthlessness I asked my wife's grandfather who was in the Korean war what he thought about them. He told me that he carried M2 Carbines and that on full auto they were worthless and even in semi he had magazine feeding issues. Although I'm sure that compared to his quad Ma Duece's he used it would feel like a little toy.
I'm sure others have had a better experience with them than I. I've been lucky enough to run several of these throughout the years and have just been left wanting more. I don't feel the same passion for them or understand why people romanticize them.
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