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Which would you choose a Hornady reloading press or a Lee reloading press. The kits don't seem to be that expensive. I am starting to shoot a little more and it is starting to cut into the vacation fund. Any comments?:D
Boxerglocker
07-14-11, 16:52
Which would you choose a Hornady reloading press or a Lee reloading press. The kits don't seem to be that expensive. I am starting to shoot a little more and it is starting to cut into the vacation fund. Any comments?:D
Things to consider before making a choice....
Calibers required to load and number of rounds a month, budget, personal time to dedicate to reload...
I assume you are talking single stage?
As was mentioned, rounds per month, time you have to reload, etc. all factor in. While I would not touch a Lee progressive with a 10 ft pole, I have heard good things about their classic line of single stage presses though I have no personal experience with them.
I am leaning toward the Hornady progressive press. I will be reloading 5.56, 9mm, and maybe 40cal. But mostly 5.56. I have 2 maybe 4 days a month to deicate to reloading. I figure if I get a progressive loader that I can do more loading in less time, therefore more shooting.
I am leaning toward the Hornady progressive press. I will be reloading 5.56, 9mm, and maybe 40cal. But mostly 5.56. I have 2 maybe 4 days a month to deicate to reloading. I figure if I get a progressive loader that I can do more loading in less time, therefore more shooting.
If you're mainly reloading 5.56mm in any volume, I'd say you're money will be better spent on a medium volume powdered trimmer like the Giraud:
http://giraudtool.com/
Progressive reloading 5.56mm without stopping is only possible with a Dillon Rapid Trim, however, on a full-up progressive like a 650. It doesn't work well on the LNL AP because the bushings will back out. Either way, it's an expensive set up.
So Giraud + Lee Classic turret I think would be the best way to spend someone else's money unless you buy both the LNL AP and the Giraud.
If you're mainly reloading 5.56mm in any volume, I'd say you're money will be better spent on a medium volume powdered trimmer like the Giraud:
http://giraudtool.com/
Progressive reloading 5.56mm without stopping is only possible with a Dillon Rapid Trim, however, on a full-up progressive like a 650. It doesn't work well on the LNL AP because the bushings will back out. Either way, it's an expensive set up.
So Giraud + Lee Classic turret I think would be the best way to spend someone else's money unless you buy both the LNL AP and the Giraud.
So would a single stage press be better for 556? Would the turrent press be okay for 9mm?
So would a single stage press be better for 556? Would the turrent press be okay for 9mm?
I'd say a turret press is best for low to medium volume of both. Single stage has it's uses, and I still use one regularly for precision rounds, but if I only had one press for low to medium volume, it would be a turret. You don't need both to load accurate rifle and pistol ammo.
For rifle rounds, the time is spent or saved in brass prep getting the brass ready to load.
Unless you have a Dillon Rapid Trim, 5.56mm has to get sized / deprimed on the press, then taken off, tumbled to remove the lube and trimmed, camphered and deburred. Then the brass gets put back on the press again to prime, powder, seat a bullet and crimp if desired.
You really don't gain a lot of volume in 5.56mm from a progressive press over a turret press like the Lee Classic Turret. You'd really cut your time down more, IMO, if you could trim, campher and debur in one step with a 3-way cutter like the one that's on the Giraud.
9mm in any volume greater than ~100-150/week you're going to want a progressive, though, in my opinion, unless you have a lot of time on your hands to reload.
Which would you choose a Hornady reloading press or a Lee reloading press. The kits don't seem to be that expensive. I am starting to shoot a little more and it is starting to cut into the vacation fund. Any comments?:D
Lee stuff works but it feels chinsy. My dad has a Hornady press that works great.
I'd say a turret press is best for low to medium volume of both. Single stage has it's uses, and I still use one regularly for precision rounds, but if I only had one press for low to medium volume, it would be a turret. You don't need both to load accurate rifle and pistol ammo.
For rifle rounds, the time is spent or saved in brass prep getting the brass ready to load.
Unless you have a Dillon Rapid Trim, 5.56mm has to get sized / deprimed on the press, then taken off, tumbled to remove the lube and trimmed, camphered and deburred. Then the brass gets put back on the press again to prime, powder, seat a bullet and crimp if desired.
You really don't gain a lot of volume in 5.56mm from a progressive press over a turret press like the Lee Classic Turret. You'd really cut your time down more, IMO, if you could trim, campher and debur in one step with a 3-way cutter like the one that's on the Giraud.
9mm in any volume greater than ~100-150/week you're going to want a progressive, though, in my opinion, unless you have a lot of time on your hands to reload.
Why do you have to do more for a 5.56 round than 9mm rounds?
I'd say a turret press is best for low to medium volume of both. Single stage has it's uses, and I still use one regularly for precision rounds, but if I only had one press for low to medium volume, it would be a turret. You don't need both to load accurate rifle and pistol ammo.
For rifle rounds, the time is spent or saved in brass prep getting the brass ready to load.
Unless you have a Dillon Rapid Trim, 5.56mm has to get sized / deprimed on the press, then taken off, tumbled to remove the lube and trimmed, camphered and deburred. Then the brass gets put back on the press again to prime, powder, seat a bullet and crimp if desired.
You really don't gain a lot of volume in 5.56mm from a progressive press over a turret press like the Lee Classic Turret. You'd really cut your time down more, IMO, if you could trim, campher and debur in one step with a 3-way cutter like the one that's on the Giraud.
9mm in any volume greater than ~100-150/week you're going to want a progressive, though, in my opinion, unless you have a lot of time on your hands to reload.
You most certainly do. Turret = one loaded round per four ram strokes. Progressive equals four loaded rounds per four ram strokes.
Your point about case prep is valid. For volume, or sheer convenience, I'd recommend a Dillon 550 or 650, with dedicated toolheads, one for prep and one for loading.
My process starts off with depriming on a SS after coming back from the range. Then the cases go into the tumbler.
My 550 has toolhead #1 setup for resizing & trimming using Dillon's Rapid Trim, and I have a convential resizer two station later that's backed out a couple of turns that's used solely for bring the neck back up to proper dimension by running the case over the expander ball (the Rapid Trim die squeezes it down more than necessary IMHO). The cut of the carbide trim blade is extremely clean, probably based on rpm's it turns at, something like 5,000 or 6,000. I don't bother chamfering and deburring unless the mouth looks a bit ugly, but I'd guess that's maybe 5-10% cases max. The rest just get loaded up as they come out of the trimmer.
I then tumble the lube off as you mentioned, then I hand prime them using a Lee Auto prime. The key is prepping a ton of cases so you always have a thousand or so of prepped cases on hand ready to load at a later time.
Toolhead #2 has a flaring die, a charging die, a seater and a crimper. Once I start loading, I can really crank them out, much faster than I could with my previous turret press. Cranking out 250 is maybe a 40 minute proposition, but granted, you had to invest in the case prep time as well. But once you get that pool of 1,000 - 2,000 (or more) of prepped cases to pull from, the reloading goes quickly. The case prep and priming part can be done in winter time when you're not shooting that much.
Now to the OP's original question, both Lee and Hornady SS presses are fine. If you are on a budget, Lee's Challenger will load .223 and 9mm cases just fine, there's plenty of power and leverage available. If the idea of an aluminum frame bugs you, upgrade to their Cast Classic. It's cast iron, every bit as stout as a Rockchucker, and you'll save several bucks along the way. But SS presses aren't the best for volume, so if you intend to shoot even a moderate amount, I'd look toward either a turret press at the minimum, or better yet, a progressive. And as e-guns said, if you go with a Lee progressive press, it is a roll of the dice. I've read so many mixed reviews on Lee progressive presses, that when I made the decision to go progressive, I went straight to Dillon based on their reputation. This, even though I was a satisfied Lee customer having used both their original 3-hole turret press and their Challenger SS press.
Good luck whichever direction you go.
I got the ABC's of reloading and hopefully by the time I get it read I will make up my mind.
If budget is a concern, consider the Dillon BL550. This is an RL550B press without the auto powder measure and auto prime system (and the auto eject kit).
It is $259.95 plus a conversion kit (most are $44.95 -- this is the shellplate -- like a shell holder and other stuff caliber specific) and can be upgraded later with special add on kits to a full RL 550B.
It basically gets you a "turret" press (from a capability standpoint or even slightly more as you still can load 4 at once if you want but with manual priming and powder) and you can upgrade fully to a proressive 550B later
If budget is a concern, consider the Dillon BL550. This is an RL550B press without the auto powder measure and auto prime system (and the auto eject kit).
It is $249.95 plus a conversion kit (most are $44.95 -- this is the shellplate -- like a shell holder and other stuff caliber specific) and can be upgraded later with special add on kits to a full RL 550B.
It basically gets you a "turret" press (from a capability standpoint or even slightly more as you still can load 4 at once if you want but with manual priming and powder) and you can upgrade fully to a proressive 550B later
So this would be the bare minimum that you could reload with? That would be more in my price range for starters. The auto primer is something I believe I could do without. I would kind of like the auto powder measure.
So this would be the bare minimum that you could reload with?
You can load with a single stage. This is not a bare minimum. It is a minimum pseudo-progressive/pseudo-turret style press that will allow you to get higher volume than a single stage (which most 9mm and 223/556 loading is about, higher volume) and can be upgraded later to a full RL 550B progressive press.
That would be more in my price range for starters. The auto primer is something I believe I could do without. I would kind of like the auto powder measure.
You can add that in if you want -- about $87.
Or you can start with an el-cheapo Lee perfect powder measure and a trickler. You dump from the Lee into your pan and trickle the last little bit to get the load you want, and then dump it into the case -- on the press. That is around $35-40 for the two. The auto powder measure option is a better option of course, IMHO, and if you start adding in upgrades right now, you probably should just spring for the RL 550B now, as once you add that in and a conversion kit, you are only about $38 short of one anyway.
And I misquoted the BL 550 price. It is $259.95, not $249.95. Sorry.
Just finished looking at the Dillon BL550 on thier wedsite. Looks like what I may go with because of the upgrade capabilities. Not to mention from what everyone says Dillon is top notch equipment. Been looking online and haven't found but a few negative comments. But from what I read thier problems sounded like operator error.
You most certainly do. Turret = one loaded round per four ram strokes. Progressive equals four loaded rounds per four ram strokes.
True, however, there's not a lot of time involved in 4 more ram strokes vs. what would be saved doing your brass prep with a tool like a Giraud or Dillon RT.
If you time it, it's maybe an extra ~10-15 seconds per round, vs ~30 seconds per round if you're trimming, camphering and deburring in separate steps.
Why do you have to do more for a 5.56 round than 9mm rounds?
5.56mm and other bottleneck cartridges will grow in length when fired and resized (both from the firing and the expander ball being pulled back through the neck during FL sizing).
If that extra (brass) length is not removed via trimming every couple firings (and trimming requires, typically, camphering and deburring as well), the brass will grow to a point where it is longer than the chamber dimensions allow.
This will cause excessive pressures of the loaded ammo because that additional (neck) length will close tightly on the bullet when the round is slammed into battery, and not allow the round to release the bullet as it would normally. The excessive gas pressure generated from this could cause the brass casing fail and rupture (typically near the web) and this could damage the firearm and shooter, as that gas has to go somewhere, and that's usually into the upper receiver and down the magwell.
9mm, and other straight walled or tapered pistol cartridges, will not typically not do this to a point where it matters.
Toolhead #2 has a flaring die, a charging die, a seater and a crimper.
Why are you flaring bottlenecked rifle cartridges, and which die are you using? A Lyman M die? Is this because of the Dillon RT and a lack of a campher?
Why are you flaring bottlenecked rifle cartridges, and which die are you using? A Lyman M die? Is this because of the Dillon RT and a lack of a campher?
Lee Universal Flaring Die. Adjusted to just add the slightest flare. I used it mainly for seating FB bullets, but it's always there, even when loading boat tails. The seater irons out the flare and the crimper does its thing. It's adjusted just enough to make seating FB bullets easier w/o the bullet getting all wompyjawed (that's a precise technical term coined by of GTifosi) and crushing any case mouths.
About your earlier post about comparing time spent between a turret & Giraud combo vs my batch prep method and progressive loading, all I can say is if you are progressing from empty case all the way to a loaded cartridge in one session, with the turret press Turret Position (TP) 1 is the resizer and deprimer, you then prime on the downstroke. You then have to remove the resized case to run through your Giraud, you then place it back in the shellholder and progress to charging, seating and crimping in TP's 2-4. Plus, how are you removing the case lube, are you tumbling your loaded cartridges or are you wiping off each cartrdige individually?
Seemed like a pain to me when I was trying to figure out whether or not to go progressive, but I tell you, the Dillon trimmer trims cleanly enough that chamfering and deburing isn't really needed. You can do it if it makes you feel better, but unless you are chasing extreme, and I mean extreme accuracy, it isn't going to matter. Given that you have to trim cases anyway, the Dillon setup with two toolheads, one dedicated for prep and one for loading just seems to be the way to go. JMHO. The only downside to the Dillon trimmer is it's a loud bastard, I wear ear muffs when using it. Works OK in a detached garage, but it wouldn't be my first choice in an apartment setup or you won't be keeping any friends living next door.
Lastly, I actually prefer hand priming vs priming on the press for two reasons: (a) you get to gauge the pocket diameter just by primer seating feel, and (b) I can do the priming step in the living room while watching TV, chatting w/Mrs Jmart, etc. JMHO.
The Lee Turret works well.
I have a Dillon 550 and love it. My process works for me:
1) I first size and deprime on a SS, the trim on a Giraud. I tend to do large batches at a time...2k casings or more. I then tumble that brass and is ready to be loaded. I can trim 600+ casings/hr with no sweat.
2) When its time to load I move to my 550 where I have a unversal deprimer in stage one to clear any tumbling media that may be present. I then prime on the downstroke. I next charge, seat, then finish with a light pass through the Lee FCD depending on the load. I easily load 350+ rds/hr once I get to the 550.
Lee Universal Flaring Die. Adjusted to just add the slightest flare. I used it mainly for seating FB bullets, but it's always there, even when loading boat tails. The seater irons out the flare and the crimper does its thing. It's adjusted just enough to make seating FB bullets easier w/o the bullet getting all wompyjawed (that's a precise technical term coined by of GTifosi) and crushing any case mouths.
About your earlier post about comparing time spent between a turret & Giraud combo vs my batch prep method and progressive loading, all I can say is if you are progressing from empty case all the way to a loaded cartridge in one session, with the turret press Turret Position (TP) 1 is the resizer and deprimer, you then prime on the downstroke. You then have to remove the resized case to run through your Giraud, you then place it back in the shellholder and progress to charging, seating and crimping in TP's 2-4. Plus, how are you removing the case lube, are you tumbling your loaded cartridges or are you wiping off each cartrdige individually?
Seemed like a pain to me when I was trying to figure out whether or not to go progressive, but I tell you, the Dillon trimmer trims cleanly enough that chamfering and deburing isn't really needed. You can do it if it makes you feel better, but unless you are chasing extreme, and I mean extreme accuracy, it isn't going to matter. Given that you have to trim cases anyway, the Dillon setup with two toolheads, one dedicated for prep and one for loading just seems to be the way to go. JMHO. The only downside to the Dillon trimmer is it's a loud bastard, I wear ear muffs when using it. Works OK in a detached garage, but it wouldn't be my first choice in an apartment setup or you won't be keeping any friends living next door.
Lastly, I actually prefer hand priming vs priming on the press for two reasons: (a) you get to gauge the pocket diameter just by primer seating feel, and (b) I can do the priming step in the living room while watching TV, chatting w/Mrs Jmart, etc. JMHO.
I load on a progressive also, a Hornady LNL AP.
My setup is to size / deprime in the LNL, tumble to remove lube, trim (etc.) in the Giraud and then prime, powder and seat on the press. I shoot a lot of SMKs, and without a campher, I was getting copper shavings, even though it's a BT bullet, so I want the campher there.
My point to the OP, though, was simply that a progressive is faster, but if you have limited funds, you'll pick up more time with a powered trimmer vs. a progressive, at least in my experience since I was trimming every other firing or less.
If you only have $3-400 to spend for instance, and are concerned primarily with 5.56mm in medium volume, a trimmer is a better buy for the greater time savings (IMO). If you can swing $500-600, get a turret + a powered trimmer. If you have ~$1K+, get both a powered trimmer and a progressive, it's the fastest, simple as that.
Speed is expensive, how fast do you need to go?
I load on a progressive also, a Hornady LNL AP.
My setup is to size / deprime in the LNL, tumble to remove lube, trim (etc.) in the Giraud and then prime, powder and seat on the press. I shoot a lot of SMKs, and without a campher, I was getting copper shavings, even though it's a BT bullet, so I want the campher there.
My point to the OP, though, was simply that a progressive is faster, but if you have limited funds, you'll pick up more time with a powered trimmer vs. a progressive, at least in my experience since I was trimming every other firing or less.
If you only have $3-400 to spend for instance, and are concerned primarily with 5.56mm in medium volume, a trimmer is a better buy for the greater time savings (IMO). If you can swing $500-600, get a turret + a powered trimmer. If you have ~$1K+, get both a powered trimmer and a progressive, it's the fastest, simple as that.
Speed is expensive, how fast do you need to go?
Exactly. It all depends on your production requirements. And I do agree with you, you have to factor in the case prep time which includes trimming, chamfering and deburring. Not only does it take time, it's a royal PITA as far as I'm concerned. Might as well watch paint dry, it's about equally interesting.
Prior to going progressive I used Lee 3-hole turret press. I still did the batch resizing thing using two turret heads, only I used other trimming setups. First I tried Lee's trimmer that you use with a drill (slow, and your fingers got chewed up after awhile tightening and loosening the knurled lock ring). It produced accurate case lengths, but the cut was very square and you had to chamfer and debur as well.
Then I tried a Possum Hollow which is kind of like a poor man's Giraud. You use this with a drill also, but you still had to chamfer and debur.
When I decided to go progressive I knew I wanted to upgrade my trimming setup, so I was considering a Gracey, a Giraud or Dillon's unit. Based on various recommendations, I went with the Dillon and now I kill four birds with one stone -- resizing and trimming occur simultaneously, and there's no need to chamfer or debur.
From a durability standpoint, I do expect at some time to have to replace my trimmer unit, I realize it won't last forever. The Giraud has probably the best/most durable motor between the three units. But the Dillon gets the job done and it both simplifies and speeds up the part of reloading that I frankly don't terribly enjoy, case prep.
Mauser KAR98K
07-18-11, 10:41
I'm running the big Dilion XL 650, just using it bare-bones. You will save time with a progressive reloading machine using pistol and stay a little less expensive than reloading for 5.56 and above. Reloading for rifle, especially 5.56, gets a tedious as noted above. 5.56 can be more a headache than .308: the small size, the military crimp primer pockets, and the sheer number to reload can take a days worth of work. The only time I run my Dilion with 5.56 is right after the case pre. stage. Priming, powder, set and a little crimp is where the progressive comes to shine with 5.56.
As for the pistol: a 20 to 30 minute set-up time and I can load about 500 rounds of whatever caliber in about an hour or more. The powder charger doesn't move hardly at all, and the setting is always spot on.
Question for those who use the bigger trimmers--the Giraud or the Dilion: which one would be better for the budget, and does Dilion's also debur and chamfer? Running the Lee trimmer on a drill press eats my hands to pieces.
and does Dilion's also debur and chamfer? Running the Lee trimmer on a drill press eats my hands to pieces.
It does not and there is no need for it to. There are almost never burrs made as the carbide blade is running 5k to 7k rpm and makes a clean cut.
Mauser KAR98K
07-18-11, 14:09
Cool. I shall get one then. My guitar fingers just can't take the current method anymore.
Question for those who use the bigger trimmers--the Giraud or the Dilion: which one would be better for the budget, and does Dilion's also debur and chamfer? Running the Lee trimmer on a drill press eats my hands to pieces.
The Giraud trims, camphers and deburrs in one step. Figure about 6 seconds per case in terms of production, or 600/hr.
It's a little hard on the fingers, but not bad. Gives a consistent result with a little experience.
I tried the Dillon RT, but had two issues, 1.) Too loud to run at night when others are sleeping with the shop vac on and 2.) Squeezes the heck out of the case neck and requires another step to re-size the case neck back to load-able dimensions.
Also, specifically to my press, the Hornady LNL, the torque of the motor or vibration would back out the bushing.
It does cut very clean and boat tail bullets don't need an additional campher, most of the time. It also has a higher production rate than the Giraud. With a case fed press you can get as much as 800-1000 cases an hour without trying too hard.
2.) Squeezes the heck out of the case neck and requires another step to re-size the case neck back to load-able dimensions.
On my XL 650 I put a Lyman M die, barely set so the first stage enters the case mouth, on the same toolhead as the trimmer. So that all happens at once.
Don't know if there would be room on the LNL to do that. Don't think it would work to put the neck expansion die on an RL 550B toolhead with the trimmer but am not sure about room.
On my XL 650 I put a Lyman M die, barely set so the first stage enters the case mouth, on the same toolhead as the trimmer. So that all happens at once.
Don't know if there would be room on the LNL to do that. Don't think it would work to put the neck expansion die on an RL 550B toolhead with the trimmer but am not sure about room.
If you have a dedicated toolhead for case prep, then you can put the trimmer/resizer in station #1 and an M-die/conventional resizer/neck sizer in station #3, it fits fine. If you use a conventional resizer, then adjust it turned out 1-2 turns so as to not touch the body, adjust it so it contacts/expands just the neck.
Or you could put this die in station #1 of your loading toolhead, with the decapping pin removed, but you only need to deal with the decapping pin if you prime off the press. Otherwise just leave it alone, prime on the downstroke, and then advance to the next station. Station #2 is for charging, station #3 is for seating and station #4 is for crimping.
I've never used a Giraud or Gracey in action, so I can't comment on their respective noise signatures, but I can confirm the Dillon is loud.
If you have a dedicated toolhead for case prep, then you can put the trimmer/resizer in station #1 and an M-die/conventional resizer/neck sizer in station #3, it fits fine. If you use a conventional resizer, then adjust it turned out 1-2 turns so as to not touch the body, adjust it so it contacts/expands just the neck.
Or you could put this die in station #1 of your loading toolhead, with the decapping pin removed, but you only need to deal with the decapping pin if you prime off the press. Otherwise just leave it alone, prime on the downstroke, and then advance to the next station. Station #2 is for charging, station #3 is for seating and station #4 is for crimping.
This is how I have it set up:
XL 650 toolhead for decapping and trimming: decap die (only decaps) on station 1. Dillon trimmer/sizer on station 3. Lyman M die on station 5.
Either on the 1050 or on another XL 650 toolhead I do the normal loading.
Station 1 -- decap only die (to pop media out of the flash hole)
rest set up as normal
Prime on press.
To the OP, this guy posted a thread here a while back about loading .223 on a Dillon. It's a lot of videos but he explains the whole process and a few tweaks to the Dillon. I can't find the thread but here is Video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tFxx9W-Yk
Also here is a general resource thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48128
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