View Full Version : Pistol Point of Aim/Point of Impact
So I noticed today at the range that the point of aim/point of impact on my M&P with newly installed Warren Tactical sights lies underneath the tritium front dot. I'm not so much a fan. I prefer the POA/POI to be just above the front sight post so I can see what the crap I am shooting at. This got me to wondering what you all prefer and why?
my glock 19 and HK p7 both hit right behind the dot on the front sight. I prefer that. For one thing i didn't buy these guys to shoot bullseye, so lining it up so that the bullseye is right over my sight isn't really what i'm doing. I think it makes more sense to my lizard brain to set the dot where i want the hole.
as with anything else, your mileage may vary.
my glock 19 and HK p7 both hit right behind the dot on the front sight. I prefer that. For one thing i didn't buy these guys to shoot bullseye, so lining it up so that the bullseye is right over my sight isn't really what i'm doing. I think it makes more sense to my lizard brain to set the dot where i want the hole.
as with anything else, your mileage may vary.
I can relate to that.
I am no bulls-eye shooter either. I only care about making hits anywhere on an 8" circle at distance.
Pistols are like rifles, only less dramatic and it gets less airplay (unless your concerned about hitting bullet holes at 3 yards and X rings at 25........)
So, depending on your sights and height over bore and individual gun you need to shoot that gun and see where it hits at what range.
My G17 with Hack sights hits at the dot inside 5, and is just over the tip of the post at 25.
A few years back I put an Ashley Express ghost ring, and trit front post on my guide gun, and promptly adjusted the sights so that POI was above the post- happy with the precision I could get from her. Imagine my surprise a year or two later when I took a shot at a deer in light just low enough to see the trit dot better than the post, and hit him in the spine instead of the lungs. Who knew? I readjusted the sights to put POI under the dot. I didn't think about that when I adjusted them the first time- I'm glad the deer didn't suffer for my dumbassness. I'll take all my short range guns with the holes under the dot, thank you.
Pistols are like rifles, only less dramatic and it gets less airplay (unless your concerned about hitting bullet holes at 3 yards and X rings at 25........)
So, depending on your sights and height over bore and individual gun you need to shoot that gun and see where it hits at what range.
My G17 with Hack sights hits at the dot inside 5, and is just over the tip of the post at 25.
This.
I believe warrens are a six o'clock hold past 7 yards. I THINK Mr Warren designed them this way on purpose to make headshots at 15 yards a little easier.
I might be talking out of my rear end so someone correct me if im wrong.
I know that my Warren sights on my Glock 19 shoot this way.
I prefer to have POI under dot at some 10-20yard, then have POI (area) cut in half by top of front sight at some 27yard (25m). This is how I set up my pistols (either by adjustable sights, exchanging sights height or even using file on them).
ISSF target shooters prefer to have POI over POA to keep sights on white background under black zone. This makes keeping proper sight picture easier. This way you aim for small strip of white between top of the sights and bottom of black zone.
For dynamic (IPSC/IDPA/USPSA) or combat use this is irrelevant, so POI is usually somewhere around top of front sight or, since sights started to have "dots" of different type, around this dot.
Also remember that different ammo bullet weight and velocity will move POI up or down, so for one ammo POI is under dot, for other just at front sight and for other "pumpkin on the post" target style.
I am under the dot fan fan. To me it's just more natural to have the dot on the target. So much so I replaced the sight on my AR with a dot.
I'm rather surprised us "under the dot guys" are in the minority. it seems like every stock service pistol shoots under the dot. :confused:
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-16-11, 03:45
Under/behind the dot. Faster for me, and easier for me to keep my focus on the front dot.
I prefer point of impact to be one to two inches high at 25 yards.
vicious_cb
07-16-11, 05:43
I prescribe to the "shoot the dot" method at 7 yards which works for most of the pistols Ive shot.
nobody knows
07-18-11, 19:45
I prefer over front sight post. I like my shots where i can see them.
victoriouslv
07-22-13, 22:24
This is an interesting topic and I dont want to start a new thread that basically travels under this topics same heading, so I am going to necro-post.
I have purchased two sets of Warren sights and two extra front sights as well. That being said, please see the two below scenarios:
Glock 34 9mm- Ordered Warren sevigny Blk on Blk sights for competition. Loved the combination of wide rear notch, thin front sight + serrations to help with the Southern Nevada sun. I shot from a benchrest fully supprted to check "zero" (point of aim/point of impact) and noticed that the gun printed 6-10" high at 25 yards, this was shooting multiple brands of 124gr FMJ factory. I figured perhaps it was the longer sight radius and ordered the taller front sight post. Now the impact is too low...
Glock 17Gen4- Ordered the Warren Sevigny Carry pistol sights with the two dot (straight 8 style aiming concept) night sight combo. I noticed the same heigth issues at distance with the same 124gr FMJ style ammo and ordered the taller front sight post at the same time as the G34 front sight post. I am thinking about filing the base of the post down to basically zero the sights to this pistol.
These are two accounts of different pistol lengths so I am wondering if people have the same problems with point of aim/point of impact being so far off. I desire to cut the target in half with the front-top portion of the front sight post and have the bullet land at the top of the front sight blade. I dont want to go to an adjustable rear sight.
Is any one out there having these same issues?
Has any one tried to solve them by modifying the bottom side of their front sight posts in order to preserve the front sight, tritium vial height?
Is there a standard distance to zero pistols to?
I tend to 6:00 hold, so I like above.
I have recently replaced sights on 5 handguns
1.Springfield Loaded- 10-8 High rear and high F/O Front was hoping for a under the dot or right on top of the dot pistol now shoots 6"high at 20yds.
2. Springfield XDM Tru-glo TFO's 8" High at 20 yds
3. Ruger SR9C Meprolite night sights 8" high at 15 yds
4. CZ P01 Meprolite night sights 4" high at 20 yds
5. CZ 75B CZ Custom tactical rear with FO front 4" high at 20 yds
The TFO's were just completely fubared from the start as I cant see wanting a 200yd zero on a handgun.
the 10-8 and CZ Custom sights seem to be ment as competition sights so I can understand the 6 oclock hold for them but will be going with taller fronts to get closer to point of aim.
The Meprolite matched sets should be right under the dot for defensive purposes but are not.
Victorious...
What front sight heights did you end up installing?
Just to clarify, you're shooting LOW at 25 yards?
Edit - responded to OP which is necro....
This is something that is horribly overlooked.
Everyone should understand their pistol POA/POI and if possible take the time to sight in their handgun. For close range shooting it doesn't make much of a difference when trying to hit another person's torso, but past 10 yards it starts to show - and when the shots get harder it means more and more. Without getting adjustable sights, you can still push a rear sight left/right with a sight pusher and here is an easy guide on understanding sight height - http://www.dawsonprecision.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=SIGHTS+FRONT. There is some math involved but knowing what your correct sight height is, using the right sights, and benchrest verification is where mechanical accuracy with a handgun starts. Most of the time if you want to buy a sight set, manufacturers have already figured out what is right for the gun you want, but it never hurts to doublecheck. If you're going to mix/match sights then it is an especially good idea to do this, or at least understand this, and understand your POA/POI.
victoriouslv
07-23-13, 22:46
Magsz- Yes I am hitting low. the second front sight post I purchased is the .245 (as opposed to the factory .215).
I just figure that we zero our rifles for the reason that we want to hit where we point them at distance. Why not zero the pistol and ensure that we can hit at distance as well?
vicious_cb
07-23-13, 22:50
So I noticed today at the range that the point of aim/point of impact on my M&P with newly installed Warren Tactical sights lies underneath the tritium front dot. I'm not so much a fan. I prefer the POA/POI to be just above the front sight post so I can see what the crap I am shooting at. This got me to wondering what you all prefer and why?
Normal. I have the same set up and I just "shoot the dot" at anything 15 yards or in. Same concept as red dot.
Magsz- Yes I am hitting low. the second front sight post I purchased is the .245 (as opposed to the factory .215).
I just figure that we zero our rifles for the reason that we want to hit where we point them at distance. Why not zero the pistol and ensure that we can hit at distance as well?
You may want to go back to the .215 front sights bud.
I use .215's on my 17's and 19's and 10-8 .235s on my 34.
All of these pistols shoot 1-2 inches high at 25 and i am OK with this as my zero.
As odd as it may be, your longer guns may require that shorter front sight.
This is an interesting topic and I dont want to start a new thread that basically travels under this topics same heading, so I am going to necro-post.
I have purchased two sets of Warren sights and two extra front sights as well. That being said, please see the two below scenarios:
Glock 34 9mm- Ordered Warren sevigny Blk on Blk sights for competition. Loved the combination of wide rear notch, thin front sight + serrations to help with the Southern Nevada sun. I shot from a benchrest fully supprted to check "zero" (point of aim/point of impact) and noticed that the gun printed 6-10" high at 25 yards, this was shooting multiple brands of 124gr FMJ factory. I figured perhaps it was the longer sight radius and ordered the taller front sight post. Now the impact is too low...
Glock 17Gen4- Ordered the Warren Sevigny Carry pistol sights with the two dot (straight 8 style aiming concept) night sight combo. I noticed the same heigth issues at distance with the same 124gr FMJ style ammo and ordered the taller front sight post at the same time as the G34 front sight post. I am thinking about filing the base of the post down to basically zero the sights to this pistol.
These are two accounts of different pistol lengths so I am wondering if people have the same problems with point of aim/point of impact being so far off. I desire to cut the target in half with the front-top portion of the front sight post and have the bullet land at the top of the front sight blade. I dont want to go to an adjustable rear sight.
Is any one out there having these same issues?
Has any one tried to solve them by modifying the bottom side of their front sight posts in order to preserve the front sight, tritium vial height?
Is there a standard distance to zero pistols to?
I see several possible issues here.
First, I don't think your problems have to do with the length of the guns. Not all Glocks regulate properly with standard-height sights. Every pistol is different and may require a different setup. You won't see this until you start testing ammo for groups and shooting beyond about 15 yards, which is why most people never encounter it.
Second, I've seen significant POI shifts moving from the bench to offhand. That could be because my bench technique is horrible, but I now test from the bench for group size and I stand on my hind legs to zero.
Finally, I polled all of the M4Carbine SMEs about zero distance in May 2012. They ALL said 25 yards. I also asked Pat McNamara about adjustable sights. This was his reply:
Hello O.J.
Ha. I am chuckling while I read this as it seems to be a 'Hot Topic' debate issue.
I run Bo-mar adjustable sights on all of my handguns. I ran them on my work gun for about a decade and never had an issue. I've run drop tests on them (Unintentionally) several times as well.
If I fall off of zero, I can make a quick adjustment. I like the crispness of the sight picture and they provide me with a smidgeon more sight radius, especially on my G-17 (What?!).
Directly before I retired, I earned 'Distinguished Pistol Shot' and an EIC badge. I earned my LEG points in National match courses of fire. In a National Match course of fire, shooters fire strong hand from the 25 as well as the 50 yard lines. The .45 round drops off significantly from the 50 to the target. It was convenient to add four clicks to the rear sight to put me on target at that range. I'd never do that tactically but it is comforting to know that I can do it administratively.
It's a personal choice for which I cannot supply an ounce of empirical data.
If adjustables were good enough for Mac while he served in our nation's premier special missions unit, they're probably good enough for lesser mortals like me.
Okie John
This is something that is horribly overlooked.
Everyone should understand their pistol POA/POI and if possible take the time to sight in their handgun. For close range shooting it doesn't make much of a difference when trying to hit another person's torso, but past 10 yards it starts to show - and when the shots get harder it means more and more. Without getting adjustable sights, you can still push a rear sight left/right with a sight pusher and here is an easy guide on understanding sight height - http://www.dawsonprecision.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=SIGHTS+FRONT. There is some math involved but knowing what your correct sight height is, using the right sights, and benchrest verification is where mechanical accuracy with a handgun starts. Most of the time if you want to buy a sight set, manufacturers have already figured out what is right for the gun you want, but it never hurts to doublecheck. If you're going to mix/match sights then it is an especially good idea to do this, or at least understand this, and understand your POA/POI.
Absolutely! Everyone knows that you have to zero a long gun but far too many people expect a pistol to magically hit POA out of the box with whatever ammo they find on the shelf that day. It just doesn't make sense.
The sight height guides are nice, but just like long guns, you have to take pistols on a case-by-case basis. Then once you get a solid 25-yard zero, getting fast hits from the muzzle all the way out to 75 or 100 yards is so easy that it's almost like cheating.
Okie John
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