View Full Version : Look's like SIG will be offering German made P226R's.
For now at least.
Check it out, carbon steel slide, Made in Germany and a rail.
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p226-german.aspx
mkmckinley
07-16-11, 19:38
Damn, now if they'd just do the same thing with the P228 and stop making all their clown guns maybe we start taking them seriously again.
Maybe there is a god...
Time to buy one more SIG.
That German proof mark and serial number on the slide and barrel are sexy.:D Only those Teutons do that. Part of me wonders though if they are just using old slides that they had a stock pile of. From my understanding, the equipment needed to make the folded slides no longer exists, or at least none of the Sig facilites have it anymore as they have transitioned completely over to CNC milled slides. It would make sense as stainless steel has come a long way in 20 years, and they could transition to SS for any new stamped slide models......yet these are still made of carbon steel. I think milled slides are better as long as they are made right in terms of long term durability, especially with calibers larger than 9mm.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-16-11, 20:08
As someone who has had alot of success with American Sigs, why should I buy this over a reliable American model?
(Not saying all the US models were reliable, but why buy one over MY reliable models)?
Also, sounds like Sig is listening to its customer base...15yrs later.
Finally a SIG I really want, I mean other then the German x5 tactical, and a reminder of why I loved them for so many years.
As someone who has had alot of success with American Sigs, why should I buy this over a reliable American model?
(Not saying all the US models were reliable, but why buy one over MY reliable models)?
Also, sounds like Sig is listening to its customer base...15yrs later.
Just like you said, not everyone is lucky enough like YOU, to snag a reliable US model. This IS it for those that missed that boat.
Who will have the best price on these?
Robb Jensen
07-16-11, 21:45
We got one yesterday.
My two American Sig's (226 & 229) have been absolutely rock solid but it looks like this one might be joining them in the near future. Damn, now I need another free spot in the safe :D
Why waste the coin on a model that is more maintenance and is less durable than what is offered now? :confused:
Why waste the coin on a model that is more maintenance and is less durable than what is offered now? :confused:
I'm guessing the question is for me?
If so then it's because of the original styling of the W. German 226 is what I first fell in love with years ago. I've always loved the look of the plain service pistol but I never cared for the older frame the W. Germans came with. The 226 German gives me the best of both worlds that I personally like (Stamped slide, newer frame). If I do eventually acquire one it will be by no means be a Safe Queen but it will not be used like my current 226 is as a training/class/combat pistol.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-16-11, 22:56
Just like you said, not everyone is lucky enough like YOU, to snag a reliable US model. This IS it for those that missed that boat.
And without any experience with this new version, what makes you think it will be any different than the US made versions?
And without any experience with this new version, what makes you think it will be any different than the US made versions?
Again, YOU may not have experience with this but it doesn't mean I don't. It was imported by PW Arms a year or so ago. It is called P226 AL SO. I have 9000rds of various fmj and hp round with nary a hiccup. The finish seems smoother than nitron. The frame rails are still pristine unlike the US model I had already showed bare aluminum within 200 rounds. And yes, it was run wet. Anything else?
Again, YOU may not have experience with this but it doesn't mean I don't. It was imported by PW Arms a year or so ago. It is called P226 AL SO. I have 9000rds of various fmj and hp round with nary a hiccup. The finish seems smoother than nitron. The frame rails are still pristine unlike the US model I had already showed bare aluminum within 200 rounds. And yes, it was run wet. Anything else?
Did you have any other issues with the US model other than showing some wear on the frame rails?
FWIW... My German P225 and P228R both have wear on the frame rails. Actually they both have more wear than my US made SIGs which have a lot more rounds through them. It's really not that big of a deal.
Did you have any other issues with the US model other than showing some wear on the frame rails?
FWIW... My German P225 and P228R both have wear on the frame rails. Actually they both have more wear than my US made SIGs which have a lot more rounds through them. It's really not that big of a deal.
The trigger was too gritty for me, maybe because of the mim hammer, I don't know.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-16-11, 23:45
Again, YOU may not have experience with this but it doesn't mean I don't. It was imported by PW Arms a year or so ago. It is called P226 AL SO. I have 9000rds of various fmj and hp round with nary a hiccup. The finish seems smoother than nitron. The frame rails are still pristine unlike the US model I had already showed bare aluminum within 200 rounds. And yes, it was run wet. Anything else?
I shouldnt have made the assumption that you didnt have any experience on the German platform. But, I still dont see any hard facts saying x is better than y because x was made here and y was made there etc.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-17-11, 00:06
This is about 4600 rds of wear on my US made 239 (which took forever on the little 9 rd magazines. The reports of the new German model having a weaker finish means that it wont stand up to higher round counts like the US models do. Its an old pic, but the rails had the same wear that the barrel assembly did.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/DSC01101.jpg
Alpha Sierra
07-17-11, 09:17
The trigger was too gritty for me, maybe because of the mim hammer, I don't know.
I'll take "I don't know" for $200 Alex.
MIM parts, since they come from a mold, don't have any tool marks. And tool marks on contact surfaces, if not polished or ground, are what give rough, gritty feel to an action. As long as the parting line is not on a sear surface, MIM fire control parts require virtually no polishing.
I'll take "I don't know" for $200 Alex.
MIM parts, since they come from a mold, don't have any tool marks. And tool marks on contact surfaces, if not polished or ground, are what give rough, gritty feel to an action. As long as the parting line is not on a sear surface, MIM fire control parts require virtually no polishing.
The rough trigger has more to do with the hammer strut assembly rather than the MIM parts in the Sig. If you look at a hammer strut from any Sig year of manufacture, you'll notice that most tend to have rough surfaces because it is stamped out of a piece of sheet steel. The main spring will ride up and down that strut and can cause a gritty trigger feeling. Swap out the assembly and the trigger characteristics and smoothness change. Not all MIM parts are made the same either in terms of quality controls and materials. After all, H&K uses a MIM hammer along with a few other parts. Sigarms started using MIM parts in the late 1990s, and nobody noticed a difference especially for the 2004 DHS contract in which Sig beat out Glock and H&K.
Sigarms started using MIM parts in the late 1990s, and nobody noticed a difference especially for the 2004 DHS contract in which Sig beat out Glock and H&K.
Sig may have beat out Glock but not H&K, in fact I carry one of the P2000's.
Penates is correct. The contract was split between HK and SIG.
To all the guys who think US SIGs are better than German... GREAT... don't buy one....more for the rest of us. It's an agreement, we'll leave the US SIGs alone for you guys, you guys leave the German SIGs alone for us.
:D
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-17-11, 20:04
To all the guys who think US SIGs are better than German... GREAT... don't buy one....more for the rest of us. It's an agreement, we'll leave the US SIGs alone for you guys, you guys leave the German SIGs alone for us.
:D
Again, I'm just trying to get a solid explanation as to why the NEW (not the old) German Sigs will be any better than the NEW US Sigs.... and not a soul has yet to explain it...
Again, I'm just trying to get a solid explanation as to why the NEW (not the old) German Sigs will be any better than the NEW US Sigs.... and not a soul has yet to explain it...
Well this may just be an assumption on my part but I am assuming the German made SIGs will adhere to the original standard.
Beat Trash
07-17-11, 20:33
Does anyone know how much, if any, of a price difference there will be between the US made and the German made 226?
Can someone tell me what the "original standard" is?
Even if we consider that old Sigs are better than new ones, this new "German" P226R will incorportate many of the newer style manufacturing techniques, materials, and quality controls. From my understanding, all imported pistols must have a certain percentage of the gun made on US soil to be legally imported. Most likely, the slide and frame will be German made/assembled, but most everything else will probably be US made. With a price tag of under $900, I'm guessing that they had a stockpile of old stamped slides, so the labor and materials cost for producing a new slide has offset the price and this will be a limited quantity item.
The milled slides are going to be superior designs in terms of reliability and durability. If you don't trust Cohen Sigs, there are plenty of pre 2005 milled slide Sigs out there for the taking. The stamped slides are nice if you don't mind the rust, changing out your roll pins every 5000rds, and just a general increase of maintenance time. When I worked out in Vegas, dust storms would fill the space between the breach block and the slide with dust and I had to detail strip my P220 just to get the slide components to work properly. I didn't have much of a problem when I switched to the P229 and the milled slide which could be just blown out with an air compressor. With the milled slides you have removed the roll pin service requirement, and thus removed another element from the things that could possibly go wrong with your weapon. I've serviced a number of stamped slide guns that had broken roll pins. When that pin breaks it can put additional stress on the lockup, and transfer that stress to the frame. This is what led to the old P226 frame crack problems. Don't get me wrong, I love my old W. German P228, but I think there is a better way to make a slide now days.
Sig may have beat out Glock but not H&K, in fact I carry one of the P2000's.
You're right, my mistake......and I carry one of the DHS P229 contract guns. :D
Whether American or German, shooting techniques have evolved, and built better or not, the slide-stop and decock lever are still located in places that may have seemed perfectly fine in the 80's when the Weaver stance and thumb-over-thumb or tea cup grips were the cutting edge, and when a thick gun with a high bore-axis and long trigger-reset didn't seem out of place or unreasonable as long as it was accurate and reliable (and didn't have a funny trigger or was made out of plastic like that new Austrian gun that had just emerged on the scene that couldn't possibly catch on...).
Seems at Sig these days innovation has been abandoned in favor of nostalgia.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-17-11, 22:44
Seems at Sig these days innovation has been abandoned in favor of nostalgia.
Exactly what this new "German" model feels like to me.
Whether American or German, shooting techniques have evolved, and built better or not, the slide-stop and decock lever are still located in places that may have seemed perfectly fine in the 80's when the Weaver stance and thumb-over-thumb or tea cup grips were the cutting edge, and when a thick gun with a high bore-axis and long trigger-reset didn't seem out of place or unreasonable as long as it was accurate and reliable (and didn't have a funny trigger or was made out of plastic like that new Austrian gun that had just emerged on the scene that couldn't possibly catch on...).
Seems at Sig these days innovation has been abandoned in favor of nostalgia.
Yep. They had their shot with the P250, but blew it badly. It will take them a great deal of work, money, and PR in order to regain that reputation of making top-tier firearms. They pretty much need to ditch the P250, and build a new polymer gun from the ground up that will appeal to the LE market. Also, they need to have a concept team that can look at military needs, and be ready with a design that can go head to head in future contract trials. Build contract guns in terms of quality and innovation like H&K and there won't be any scrambling to try and catch up with the competition.
Whether American or German, shooting techniques have evolved, and built better or not, the slide-stop and decock lever are still located in places that may have seemed perfectly fine in the 80's when the Weaver stance and thumb-over-thumb or tea cup grips were the cutting edge, and when a thick gun with a high bore-axis and long trigger-reset didn't seem out of place or unreasonable as long as it was accurate and reliable (and didn't have a funny trigger or was made out of plastic like that new Austrian gun that had just emerged on the scene that couldn't possibly catch on...).
Seems at Sig these days innovation has been abandoned in favor of nostalgia.
I seem to do just fine with my SIGs, and I don't shoot in a "Weaver" stance, or grip my gun like a "tea cup." I also don't have any problems keeping up with or surpassing the new plastic wonder shooters with their striker fired pistols.
Funny thing is, neither do the majority of top tier SOF around the world who use and continue to choose the Classic series SIGs. I guess their tactics are a little out of date too?
Look, sorry if I sound like a Sig-hater, while I don't love them, I can simultaneously respect the design for what it is and still point out it's flaws, facts about the design should be able to be discussed without anyone getting all weepy...
In corollary, the 226's were innovative in their day and there's nothing being offered from Sig that's designed to be on bleeding edge of today, that's really what I'm speaking to... the Sig-Pro was the polymer classic/legacy-design hybrid, the 250's just plain stink, what's next is they're rolling out a 226 (again), just made in Germany (mostly) again..?
P.S. - Hopefully wthout getting into a totally pointless hypothetical argument, as for "top tier SOF" using Sig's, while once true, today I'd say it's doubtful at best that they are what top tier anyone is equipping themselves with, and if anything they're the legacy model that is getting replaced by lighter, more ergonomic, and/or adaptable offerings... There are a lot more, maybe even better choices that can fill the same role, and the same flaws I pointed out earlier that don't lend themselves kindly to a modern thumbs-forward grip (which I imagine most top tier SOF are aware of and utilize) only become amplified, making the pistols even more awkward and clumsy when wearing gloves (seems most top tier SOF wear gloves I hear, guess fast-ropes and such must not be super-fun bare-handed).
Mr. Goodtimes
07-17-11, 23:37
I'll pass. Sig needs to go back to just making a few pistols that actually run and get rid of all these stupid ass bling models. Go back to the quality parts they were putting in their pistols pre 2005. Also, quit making those sorry excuses for rifles they call the 556 and bring me a real Swiss 552. Lets forget the 516 even existed. Whoever the retards were on the design/marketing team for that one should be taken out back and shot. I almost forgot about the 290.... thats a ****ing abortion.
Until then, Sig isn't a serious contender in the firearms world in my eyes. They're only a little better than Taurus. It actually frustrates me to see Sig going down the path they are. They have gone from marketing to serious shooters, mil, LE etc. to marketing/producing guns for the dirt clod shooting crowd.
Look, sorry if I sound like a Sig-hater, while I don't love them, I can simultaneously respect the design for what it is and still point out it's flaws, facts about the design should be able to be discussed without anyone getting all weepy...
I'm not getting weepy, but if one firearm fits all then the world would be boring. I like SIGs controls, others may not. Glocks tear the shit out of my hands where they fit others perfectly. Some like where the decocker/safety is on H&K's, many do not. Etc etc...
In corollary, the 226's were innovative in their day and there's nothing being offered from Sig that's designed to be on bleeding edge of today, that's really what I'm speaking to... the Sig-Pro was the polymer classic/legacy-design hybrid, the 250's just plain stink, what's next is they're rolling out a 226 (again), just made in Germany (mostly) again..?
I agree that the P250 is garbage and needs to go away. SIG does need to introduce a cheap striker fired weapon to compete with the Glocks and M&P's in the LE world. I think, along with many others, that the SIG Pro is a great weapon and that they would be competitive in that arena if they introduced a striker version on that platform.
P.S. - Hopefully wthout getting into a totally pointless hypothetical argument, as for "top tier SOF" using Sig's, while once true, today I'd say it's doubtful at best that they are what top tier anyone is equipping themselves with, and if anything they're the legacy model that is getting replaced by lighter, more ergonomic, and/or adaptable offerings... There are a lot more, maybe even better choices that can fill the same role, and the same flaws I pointed out earlier that don't lend themselves kindly to a modern thumbs-forward grip (which I imagine most top tier SOF are aware of and utilize) only become amplified, making the pistols even more awkward and clumsy when wearing gloves (seems most top tier SOF wear gloves I hear, guess fast-ropes and such must not be super-fun bare-handed).
FWIW... NSW (SEALs), British SAS and SBS, Canada's JTF-2, Polish GROM and many more SOF continue to use the "legacy" pistol. I would consider all of the above "top tier."
Time to buy one more SIG.
My thoughts exactly! :D
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