View Full Version : Proper Wear of Armor (with anatomical diagrams)
This is often a misunderstood topic so I thought I should try to clear it up a bit.
A PDF of this information is available here: http://sixty-six.org/files/proper_wear_of_armor.pdf (http://sixty-six.org/files/GUNFIGHTER_ANATOMY_proper_wear_of_armor.pdf)
Understanding Armor and the Body
Body armor is meant to keep you in the fight. It should protect the vital organs which, if hit, would quickly take you down and prevent you from putting rounds on target. The possibility of saving your life is a secondary benefit of body armor. With this purpose in mind we must understand those structures we need to protect which we can realistically protect while still maintaining a high degree of mobility.
Our primary concern is the heart and the large blood vessels which sprout from the top of the heart: the superior vena cava, the arch of the aorta and the pulmonary trunk. These vessels are collectively referred to as “the great vessels”.
The heart is important for its obvious function of providing pressure to circulate blood to the lungs via the right side of the heart and then on to the body via the left side of the heart. Within the body the heart lies left of center, with its apex near the left nipple. Thus, while fitting a plate we must select one which will cover the nipples to ensure the entire heart is protected.
The great vessels of the heart lie directly behind the uppermost portion of the sternum, known as the manubrium, and sit directly on top of the heart. The great vessels wrap and twist around each other, making it likely that a hit to one will likely perforate another and result in massive hemorrhage.
Arguably the most important of the three great vessels in the Aorta, due to its size and high velocity of blood flow, 5 liters a minute. The average 165 pound man has 5 liters of blood in his body and thus can completely bleed out within one minute if the Aorta is dramatically dissected. Loss of consciousness can occur with less than 40% or 2 liters of blood loss and thus can occur in well under a minute. Of equal importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath. Protecting the entirety of the respiratory diaphragm is not realistic, but the majority of it will be protected by a properly fitted plate. The diaphragm is dome shaped, following the bottom of your rib cage and doming up into the chest cavity.
Protecting the vertebral column goes without saying -we wish to protect as much of this as possible without sacrificing mobility. Unfortunately, protecting the entire vertebral column is not realistic at this time.
It is important to note that a hit to the lungs may prove to eventually be lethal but is not nearly as lethal as quickly as a hit to the heart and its great vessels. The liver and kidneys, while highly vascular, are also not immediately incapacitating and thus are of secondary concern. The rest of the viscera in your abdomen are of tertiary concern.
Finding Balance: Protection vs Mobility
A chest plate, when properly fitted, should not impinge on the anterior deltoids or pectoralis major muscles when punching out with a handgun or carbine. Any impingement on the shoulder may create discomfort, premature fatigue and possibly even aggravate certain shoulder conditions. In some cases too large of a plate may prevent a shooter from assuming an ideal hold on their weapon. This, and even discomfort, can translate to misses down range.
A slightly smaller chest plate which fits with no impingement while punching out will not expose the heart as long as it still covers the nipples. A bit more peripheral lung tissue will be exposed along with a small fraction more of the abdominal viscera, but these are organs which can take a hit without immediate consequences to the shooter. As stated previously, a shot to the lung is not immediately fatal. A shot to the periphery of the lung certainly is not immediately fatal and peripheral lung tissue is the worst thing you are sacrificing for a better fitting plate.
Front/chest plate
The top of your chest plate should be at the level of your suprasternal notch, which is also known as the jugular notch. Tracing the sternum with a finger superiorly, the soft spot you reach at the top of the sternum is the suprasternal notch. If you press in with your finger and choke yourself you are in the right spot. The chest plate should ride at least level with the top of your sternum while standing. An easy way to ensure this is to place a finger in your suprasternal notch and position the plate such that the top of the plate touches the bottom of your finger.
Reference image (anterior view)
Red is your heart and related blood vessels
Dark Grey/Yellow is a properly positioned plate
The sternum and clavicle are white with black outline
http://sixty-six.org/files/thorax_anterior.jpg
Positioning of rear/back plate
Find the most prominent bony eminence at the base of your neck. This is your vertebral eminence. Count down two bony spinousus (or measure down about an inch) and that should be above the level of the superior aspect of your sternum. Positioning at least this high will ensure your entire heart and the great vessels are protected from a shot to the back.
Reference image (posterior view)
The vertebral eminence is marked in the diagram below in blue.
http://sixty-six.org/files/thorax_posterior.jpg
Side plates and shoulder plates
Side plates are intended to protect the highly vascular elements of your abdomen. They were introduced to prevent troops from bleeding out in the chopper on the way to the field hospital. Side plates were not necessarily intended to protect the heart, but if you wear them high up into your armpits you can protect some of the lower portion of your heart.
Protecting your heart from a shot to side is accomplished by shoulder plates, such as the ones manufactured by Crye Precision.
To sum it up
Front plate: Even with top of the sternum while standing and covering the entirety of each nipple. For best fit, the plate should not impinge on the shoulder when presenting a weapon.
Rear plate: Should lie no lower than an inch below your vertebral prominence. A back plate one size larger than a chest plate is optimal.
Side plates: the higher they ride the better
Thanks for taking the time to post this, that's a very useful diagram and reasoning.
controlledpairs2
07-16-11, 23:11
nice! thanks!
custom-x_sponjah
07-18-11, 13:55
Do You Mind if I steal this and post it on TOS?
CXS
Iraq Ninja
07-19-11, 00:37
Nice pic.
Not sure how you sized the plate in the pic, but it appears smaller than normal sizing, and way smaller than what I want to use.
My following comments are not directed at the OP (panzerr), but to Plate Virgins or people offering advice without wisdom earned through experience...
I do have a concern about this trend towards smaller plates. I do not like it and feel it is dangerous for those who have never been on the receiving end and think it is what "everyone is doing."
If one has experience with wearing armor other than for recreational uses, then they can use their judgement to make the choice and I respect that.
Plate comfort is an arbitrary concept. It is not just the plate, but the carrier, what is attached to it, and the condition of the user. I am not concerned with plate comfort with a standard SAPI cut. Choosing a smaller plate for comfort makes about as much sense to me as changing your upper to 22LR so it has less recoil and noise.
Most civilians have not heard the term "Mission dictates equipment" but it makes a lot of good sense. People have gone on missions with no armor, or tossed their plates down a mountain because the weight was affecting their ability to complete the mission. So, what is your mission?
What I am concerned about is protection to the point that it interferes with my ability to fight. Plates are not static when worn, and can shift around. You want coverage that covers your vitals no matter how your body is convoluted.
That's a good graphic. Too often, dudes are wearing their plates too low, under the misguided idea of "comfort."
Plate comfort is an arbitrary concept.
There's gonna be some rocks out there, so for those guys...the above statement boils down to "armor is uncomfortable." Period, end of story, foreverandeveramen.
Folks throw the word "comfortable" around too often in regard to armor. Ain't gonna happen; it's not a Hawaiian shirt. Ya wear plates of the correct size, put them where they're supposed to go, adjust the carrier around those two requirements as best one may, and either suck it up from there or get another carrier (only if you're allowed/capable).
Not sure how you sized the plate in the pic, but it appears smaller than normal sizing, and way smaller than what I want to use.
The plate is of no particular size, but it is of proper proportions. The diagram is only intended to show how high a plate needs to go.
I will be doing surface projections on a live subject and using a real plate to shed more light on the subject.
This applies to soft panels for concealable duty armor too since your gut can survive hits much better than your high chest area.
That's a good graphic. Too often, dudes are wearing their plates too low, under the misguided idea of "comfort."
There's gonna be some rocks out there, so for those guys...the above statement boils down to "armor is uncomfortable." Period, end of story, foreverandeveramen.
Folks throw the word "comfortable" around too often in regard to armor. Ain't gonna happen; it's not a Hawaiian shirt. Ya wear plates of the correct size, put them where they're supposed to go, adjust the carrier around those two requirements as best one may, and either suck it up from there or get another carrier (only if you're allowed/capable).
You mean I won't forget I'm wearing it and carrying a gun?;)
The plate is of no particular size, but it is of proper proportions. The diagram is only intended to show how high a plate needs to go.
I will be doing surface projections on a live subject and using a real plate to shed more light on the subject.
That would help a lot of folks, maybe various sized people and plates?
variablebinary
07-19-11, 16:53
I do have a concern about this trend towards smaller plates. I do not like it and feel it is dangerous for those who have never been on the receiving end and think it is what "everyone is doing."
You're not the only one noticing this. There are far too many people out there wearing an undersized plate and carrier that leaves far too much of the torso exposed for my taste.
parishioner
07-19-11, 18:07
A little confused. You said you photoshopped these images but they look to be the same ones DocGKR used here in one of his stickies in the Terminal Ballistic forum posted in '09: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19910
Had you made these for Dr. Roberts to use? Just curious.
A little confused. You said you photoshopped these images but they look to be the same ones DocGKR used here in one of his stickies in the Terminal Ballistic forum posted in '09: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19910
Had you made these for Dr. Roberts to use? Just curious.
No, I made these independently. I also posted them on lightfighter so it looks like Doc just added them to his thread here to expand on it. He probably doesn't know I posted them here as well.
parishioner
07-19-11, 18:21
Gotcha. Nice work btw.
You mean I won't forget I'm wearing it and carrying a gun?;)
When you hear an otherwise-intelligent adult say something as stupid as "...but it STILL feels like I'm wearing ARMOR....," you feel like your tilting at windmills.
http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_226_32-insane-movie-ideas-built-out-existing-movie-titles_p32/#27
Very cool illustration, I would rather have smaller plates and more mobility. But that is my personal preference.
Iraq Ninja
07-22-11, 07:51
Very cool illustration, I would rather have smaller plates and more mobility. But that is my personal preference.
Please explain based on your experience. Large plates do not drastically decrease mobility.
I do not think that there is a trend towards smaller plates. It is more like people are finally getting smart on them and getting the correct size. The trend for Big Army was to get the largest plate that they could fit on a person. Even though I have never worn it my unit had to get the IOTV issue (still not sure about that one). I almost got in a fight with the retard CIVs that were working the issue point. I had to sand there to make sure that they were not issuing the wrong size to everyone. They were giving out the largest size that could to all of the people that came through. They gave one of my guys an XL plate and carrier. I had him sit down with it on and show the people there that he could not even move his head because the vest was on his legs and moved up past his chin. I got him a Medium. A good rule of thumb is that the plate (and the vest/carrier) should not be above the sternal notch and you should be able to put your finger in your navel when standing. The with should be about nipple line to nipple line. That is the proper fit for the plates. As far as people using smaller plate I have not seen it. I have seen people using the correct size more often now.
Iraq Ninja
07-22-11, 09:28
Doc, let me clarify.
The trend towards smaller plates is with the civilians who have little or no experience with such things, like many folks here. They want plates for what ever personal reason, and think smaller will be better.
Spurholder
07-22-11, 09:53
Panzerr, thanks. Great post!
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 10:01
Thanks for posting this.
I have several armor setups, but my grab and go light carrier is a simple Paraclete carrier with a tear-away IFAK, a mag shingle, and a few pistol mags. I just put it on and it appears by this I had it a couple of inches too low for summer wear (less clothing.) Thanks!
Doc, let me clarify.
The trend towards smaller plates is with the civilians who have little or no experience with such things, like many folks here. They want plates for what ever personal reason, and think smaller will be better.
In that case I have not seen anything like that...:smile: My bad, I thought we were talking about MIL use.
Thanks for the diagrams. I have heard this discussed, but never seen it illustrated. I wear my plates high like shown. I have had people ask "Why are your plates so high?"
variablebinary
07-22-11, 19:27
In that case I have not seen anything like that...:smile: My bad, I thought we were talking about MIL use.
Yeah, it's the opposite. You'll get some 5'5" 120lbs PFC being swallowed by an XL IOTV :)
On a serious note, take a look at the stateside "tactical circuit" and people are sporting smaller and smaller plates under the guise of weight savings, comfort, and mobility. You'll easily see 25-30% of the torso unprotected in some cases due to inadequate protection.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 19:52
Yeah, it's the opposite. You'll get some 5'5" 120lbs PFC being swallowed by an XL IOTV :)
On a serious note, take a look at the stateside "tactical circuit" and people are sporting smaller and smaller plates under the guise of weight savings, comfort, and mobility. You'll easily see 25-30% of the torso unprotected in some cases due to inadequate protection.
part of it is that nobody makes 24"x30" plates.
Iraq Ninja
07-22-11, 21:41
While size matters, at least the troops are getting armor...
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/images/force-protection.png
NoveskeFan
07-22-11, 21:48
Your post just reminded me that I need to readjust my soft armor (kevlar). It sits a bit low below the juglur notch. Shame on me for letting it slide.
Okay, so let me see if I understand this. The down and dirty way to determine whether a front plate is the proper fit is if it protects approximately nipple to nipple on the horizontal plane and jugular notch to just above the navel on the vertical plane? And for the back you could arguably go one size larger?
Okay, so let me see if I understand this. The down and dirty way to determine whether a front plate is the proper fit is if it protects approximately nipple to nipple on the horizontal plane
At a minimum, yes but with that said it should cover the entirety of the nipple to be sure it covers the apex of the heart.
and jugular notch to just above the navel on the vertical plane?
no
The very top of your sternum/bottom of the suprasternal notch to at least 1.5" below your sternum.
And for the back you could arguably go one size larger?
Yes
Fact is, you should wear the largest plate you can without hindering mobility. These are just the bare minimums.
At a minimum, yes but with that said it should cover the entirety of the nipple to be sure it covers the apex of the heart.
no
The very top of your sternum/bottom of the suprasternal notch to at least 1.5" below your sternum.
Yes
Fact is, you should wear the largest plate you can without hindering mobility. These are just the bare minimums.
That puts me into a large plate then to cover the nipple. Here I thought that I needed a medium. Is that right though? 5"10, 210 lbs, 44-46" jacket.
That puts me into a large plate then to cover the nipple. Here I thought that I needed a medium. Is that right though? 5"10, 210 lbs, 44-46" jacket.
Yes that sounds right. For a frame of reference my jacket size is 42 and I wear a medium with no problems. I can wear a large but a large plate pinches my pecs when I work on things in front of me so I choose not to.
RyanS: Your height and weight are almost identical to mine, but I'm a bit larger jacket size (48). I wear a large plate (front and rear) and find it fits me about perfect, with only a very minor loss of range of motion when punching out fully with a pistol.
-Jenrick
I am a plus size guy so I like a plus size plate. I also wear the side plates. Pretty much, whatever your rib cage covers should also be covered by a plate. Nature already figured out what really needs protecting. About the only thing you can do to make it more 'comfortable' is to go with a plate carrier and just cover the really important bits. Everything is a trade off between protection and mobility.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 11:09
I'm curious about positioning and cheek weld, if I sit it up where that diagram shows then my stock doesn't sit in it's usual fire position affecting my cheek weld. So it isn't a comfort issue but of a practical issue. I've set up my gear so that when I'm standing it's lower than where it should be but when I get into my firing stance it lines up perfectly with what needs to be protected and allows me to position my primary weapon system properly.
My plates are 9.5 x 11.5(it's a square), I'm thinking the plate carrier is too big(I've linked to the carrier I have below). Given that many of you have experience running these rigs does anyone have any suggestions that would allow me to run armor without sacrificing proper shooting technique?
http://www.condoroutdoor.com/images/products/display/CPC001_F08_800.jpg
Right off the bat, and without being snide in the least, ditch those Luddite rectangular plates, and get something made to fit a human and not a BBQ grill made from a 55gal drum.
If your plates ride low when you're standing, and end up attaining proper coverage when you hunker down, then your plates are shifting and are really unlikely to be where they're supposed to be in either spot. That Condor carrier being a POS aside, you're not fitted correctly. Aside from MAYBE having the plate maybe come up under your throat a bit when you sit because your thighs push up on the bottom of the plate, they shouldn't be moving like that. Snug up the PC, or change sizes if you can't get it to stop shifting position on the size you have.
If your plates are shifting around that much, your whole rig is probably slapping you silly when you move (bouncing up and down when your run, in particular), which is awkward to move in because it affects your balance in ways you have to constantly compensate for, which makes you mote tired over time, which makes you have to compensate for your affected balance, which.......it's a negative feedback loop. One has to ask one's self if all that avoidable extra fatigue (and maybe all that falling down) is worth a certain level of perceived discomfort, given that armor is inherently uncomfortable even when fitted perfectly.
Given what you have, you simply will have to sacrifice SOMEthing. Those corners up by your shoulders bind in ways you simply cannot compensate for without impacting something else.
Any sort of shooting away from service rifle and the like is an exercise in applying the fundamentals you are able to apply given time/terrain and all the other extracurriculars, anyway. If you're not able to replace your rectangular plates with something a bit more current/ergonomic, you're going to have to reconcile yourself to the idea of "perfect is the enemy of good" in regard to your positioning.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 11:58
Right off the bat, and without being snide in the least, ditch those Luddite rectangular plates, and get something made to fit a human and not a BBQ grill made from a 55gal drum.
If your plates ride low when you're standing, and end up attaining proper coverage when you hunker down, then your plates are shifting and are really unlikely to be where they're supposed to be in either spot. That Condor carrier being a POS aside, you're not fitted correctly. Aside from MAYBE having the plate maybe come up under your throat a bit when you sit because your thighs push up on the bottom of the plate, they shouldn't be moving like that. Snug up the PC, or change sizes if you can't get it to stop shifting position on the size you have.
If your plates are shifting around that much, your whole rig is probably slapping you silly when you move (bouncing up and down when your run, in particular), which is awkward to move in because it affects your balance in ways you have to constantly compensate for, which makes you mote tired over time, which makes you have to compensate for your affected balance, which.......it's a negative feedback loop. One has to ask one's self if all that avoidable extra fatigue (and maybe all that falling down) is worth a certain level of perceived discomfort, given that armor is inherently uncomfortable even when fitted perfectly.
Given what you have, you simply will have to sacrifice SOMEthing. Those corners up by your shoulders bind in ways you simply cannot compensate for without impacting something else.
Any sort of shooting away from service rifle and the like is an exercise in applying the fundamentals you are able to apply given time/terrain and all the other extracurriculars, anyway. If you're not able to replace your rectangular plates with something a bit more current/ergonomic, you're going to have to reconcile yourself to the idea of "perfect is the enemy of good" in regard to your positioning.
First off thanks for the information, I appreciate it.
In terms of width the plates are 11.5" and my shoulder width is about 22". However, when I am in my firing stance I am about 18" with about 14" between my chest area. Do you think if I replaced the plate carrier I could make it work utilizing the proper placement of armor? If so(or even regardless) do you have a plate carrier that you could/would recommend which would accommodate my plate carriers?
I am going to contact the dealer where I purchased the plates but they have a big sign there that says "all sales are final", so I may have to make the best of this situation.
calicojack
07-31-11, 12:22
On a serious note, take a look at the stateside "tactical circuit" and people are sporting smaller and smaller plates under the guise of weight savings, comfort, and mobility. You'll easily see 25-30% of the torso unprotected in some cases due to inadequate protection.
this stems from everyone jumping into the "review industry" in order to "attempt to gain free stuff." Those same people lack the "down range mindset" of what their gear is "supposed to be used for." They want to have a "more realistic gaming experience" while shooting idpa.
That's a whole different thread however, and i won't further derail such a great and informative thread any further.
This is the only thing I'm familiar with that even comes close....
http://www.us-palm.com/index.php?option=com_products&view=product&id=28
....but still misses because it's sold as a package (plates included). You'd have to contact them to see if they sell the carrier by itself, which I'd do based on the fact that it looks more adjustable in terms of ride-height.
Some LE products still use rectangular plates, but I'm not familiar with carriers for them and hesitate to point things out as a result. The one time I wore one (2005), I'd already gotten "spoiled" by having worn corner-cut, double-curve SAPIs in the Interceptor vest, which were getting pushed forward prior and during OIF1.
The military issuing double-curve plates en mass kind of shot the single-curve/flat plate market in the ass, except for small trauma plates that are of a size similar to the 6x8 plates commonly used for side-SAPIs. Again, more of an LE thing, and I hope somebody from that community has more info. Those US Palm plates are surplus AirSave plates, and I similarly hope that somebody with aircrew experience may chime in with alternative carriers that they may have worn to mount those things.
Otherwise, SKD currently carries excellent plates for good prices, though one needs to bear in mind that any not rated for stand-alone use require backers to provide protection up to their rating. Even with stand-alone-rated plates, backers are a damned good idea. It DOES add up......
Checking the EE is a good idea, too.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 12:52
This is the only thing I'm familiar with that even comes close....
http://www.us-palm.com/index.php?option=com_products&view=product&id=28
....but still misses because it's sold as a package (plates included). You'd have to contact them to see if they sell the carrier by itself, which I'd do based on the fact that it looks more adjustable in terms of ride-height.
Some LE products still use rectangular plates, but I'm not familiar with carriers for them and hesitate to point things out as a result. The one time I wore one (2005), I'd already gotten "spoiled" by having worn corner-cut, double-curve SAPIs in the Interceptor vest, which were getting pushed forward prior and during OIF1.
The military issuing double-curve plates en mass kind of shot the single-curve/flat plate market in the ass, except for small trauma plates that are of a size similar to the 6x8 plates commonly used for side-SAPIs. Again, more of an LE thing, and I hope somebody from that community has more info. Those US Palm plates are surplus AirSave plates, and I similarly hope that somebody with aircrew experience may chime in with alternative carriers that they may have worn to mount those things.
Otherwise, SKD currently carries excellent plates for good prices, though one needs to bear in mind that any not rated for stand-alone use require backers to provide protection up to their rating. Even with stand-alone-rated plates, backers are a damned good idea. It DOES add up......
Checking the EE is a good idea, too.
Well I plan on calling first thing Monday morning to see about a possible exchange...or flat out return if possible.
If they do accept a return do you have any solid recommendations for any corner-cut armor?
I have yet to find any armor that really allows me to correctly sink the stock into my shoulder and get a good check weld without craning my neck.
In most cases I just shoot off my pectoral area and put the stock on the plate. If you rig your gear the right way you can even form a nice pocket on your vest to place the stock. This works great for CQB - less so targets at range but combat is not a 'leather jacket' event.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 13:04
I have yet to find any armor that really allows me to correctly sink the stock into my shoulder and get a good check weld without craning my neck.
In most cases I just shoot off my pectoral area and put the stock on the plate. If you rig your gear the right way you can even form a nice pocket on your vest to place the stock. This works great for CQB - less so targets at range but combat is not a 'leather jacket' event.
I actually simulated this a few times but I would imagine that the recoil of the weapon would cause it to slip off my chest after every shot. Worst case scenario I have been able to modify my gear so that it can be used but there is no way for me to obtain the coverage suggested within this thread as it stands currently(with current gear).
If I can rectify the situation tomorrow I was thinking about making a run at these but it appears they don't have medium, large or extra large:http://www.skdtac.com/BAE_NIJ_IV_SA_Plate_p/amr.114.htm
I have yet to find any armor that really allows me to correctly sink the stock into my shoulder and get a good check weld without craning my neck.
In most cases I just shoot off my pectoral area and put the stock on the plate.
Likewise. I place my buttstock on my plate as well. It's a nice, solid platform.
reference my video: http://youtu.be/cyQkXvE2L5I
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 20:40
Likewise. I place my buttstock on my plate as well. It's a nice, solid platform.
reference: http://youtu.be/cyQkXvE2L5I
It could be the plate carrier I have, it's really slick. Any idea which plate carrier he's using in that video? Better yet, which plate carrier are you using that seems to be functioning in that manner?
It could be the plate carrier I have, it's really slick. Any idea which plate carrier he's using in that video? Better yet, which plate carrier are you using that seems to be functioning in that manner?
That is me in the video. It's a PIG plate carrier with medium Ceradyne SAPI plates.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 20:47
That is me in the video. It's a PIG plate carrier with medium Ceradyne SAPI plates.
Even better!
Is it the texture that keeps the stock from sliding right off? Mine seems to slide right off and thats just holding it against the carrier. Finally, do you know the internal dimensions of that carrier? My plates are 9.5" x 11.5", if it will take those and you think the texture is part of what's holding it in place then I'll buy one right now! LOL
There are a few solutions. Build up a pocket for your stock using closed cell foam. Run strips through the MOLLE loops. Rest the stock on another pouch on your chest. Use spray rubber coating on the butt, on the carrier or both. Try a rubber butt pad or ranger bands.
Even better!
Is it the texture that keeps the stock from sliding right off? Mine seems to slide right off and thats just holding it against the carrier. Finally, do you know the internal dimensions of that carrier? My plates are 9.5" x 11.5", if it will take those and you think the texture is part of what's holding it in place then I'll buy one right now! LOL
Well the CTR on my Noveske has a rubber pad which gains traction on greased lightning. Your plates would fit fine.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 20:59
Well the CTR on my Noveske has a rubber pad which gains traction on greased lightning. Your plates would fit fine.
Well the reason I asked is your carrier looks like the corners are cut and my plates are rectangles.
Well the reason I asked is your carrier looks like the corners are cut and my plates are rectangles.
Rectangles?!? >shiver<
The top of the PIG measures about 7.75 inches across so your rectangular plates wouldn't fit.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 21:10
Rectangles?!? >shiver<
The top of the PIG measures about 7.75 inches across so your rectangular plates wouldn't fit.
LOL, back to square one for me. :help:
Hopefully they'll take these back when I call tomorrow.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 21:46
There are a few solutions. Build up a pocket for your stock using closed cell foam. Run strips through the MOLLE loops. Rest the stock on another pouch on your chest. Use spray rubber coating on the butt, on the carrier or both. Try a rubber butt pad or ranger bands.
Can you elaborate on how one would achieve a "pocket using closed cell foam"?
LOL, back to square one for me. :help:
Hopefully they'll take these back when I call tomorrow.
Logical,
I have these (http://www.skdtac.com/Velocity_Systems_Plate_LEVEL_III_IV_ICW_p/amr.108.htm) for both front and rear, and can tell you they are very comfortable, reletively light weight, and with the soft armor backers only stick off my body about .75 inches when wearing them in my Mayflower APC. The only thing I can say is I wish they had a bigger size for a back plate...but for the front, the size is about perfect for me...I'm 5'8" / 185 lbs / size 44 jacket for reference.
If you go with something like the PIG, which has padded inserts for added comfort, then I would go with the BAE Stand Alone plates that SKD sells. If you go with a lightweight/minimalist PC like my APC, then I would suggest soft armor backers whether you get SA plates or ICW. The IIIA backers will serve as "padding" while providing the extra ballistic protection. However, most SA plates are usually thicker (and more expensive), so take price, weight, size, shape, AND thickness into consideration when you decide to look for different plates.
In my search for armor, (IMO) I found that the Velocity Plates that I linked above provided the best "balance" between the five factors that I listed. The Velocity guys that I talked to were great as well, and don't have a doubt that they are good plates (heck if SKD sells them, then you know they're quality)
RE: buttstock placement...you will find that it is MUCH easier to get your buttstock on your shoulder and off your plate with "shooter cut" plates. I tend to cant my rifle and follow the outline at the corner of the plate to get a good lock-up with my buttstock, but I can shoot with my buttstock on the plate if I wanted to due to the low profile that the plates/carrier provide.
Can you elaborate on how one would achieve a "pocket using closed cell foam"?
It's referred to as a "bolster." The most common version is a .75"-1" dia. by 4" long cylinder of foam that's encased in a non-slip cover (like what Blackhawk calls 'HawkTex'), with a velcor tab along the length that allows one to attach it to the outer edge of the front panel of a PC or armor vest (at least, the ones that have loop-side velcro included for that purpose). When you shoulder your gun, your arm presses it inward, which makes it form....well, think of one of those concrete parking-space things that keeps you from running up on the curb. It's like that, but for the stock.
You can make your own bolster. Imagine a closed-cell-foam sleeping mat of the type used for camping and such; an ISO mat or "bitch-mat" to most MIL folk. Cut a strip of that and feed it through a column of PALS webbing near the edge of the front panel of your vest/carrier.
Hell, if you're still using a standard carbine stock, that thing + nylon of any sort = slip&slide. You can put some of that rubbery stuff you can dip tool handles into on the butt of the stock, just be prepared to refresh that now and again....though they make rubber pads you can put on (you'll need to zip-tie it in place, those things never want to stay put). You can also get a stock with an integral pad.
EDIT: If somebody with a Corps-issue MTV would be kind enough to snap a shot of your issued bolster attached to your vest, it'd be a mitzvah. That's presuming you haven't done what every other Marine I know does and tossed the thing in the trash
Iraq Ninja
07-31-11, 23:21
In regards to the idea of padding or creating a pocket for your stock, I have a few general comments.
Anything I add to my vest has to have a damn good reason for being there. I have never felt a need to add a stock pocket. The CIRAS was probably the worse to shoot with, but I worked through it with training and practice. The PIG is just about perfect in this regard and a dream to shoot with.
Practice, not Plastic, is the answer.
Logicalpath
08-02-11, 13:04
Just an update but I'm scheduled to go in tomorrow afternoon to return the front plate. I told them I could keep the rear plate since that one doesn't matter that it's a rectangle.
If I get that Pig carrier will the rectangle plate fit in the rear?
Once the return is done then I'm going to buy a corner-cut plate and get squared away.
Just an update but I'm scheduled to go in tomorrow afternoon to return the front plate. I told them I could keep the rear plate since that one doesn't matter that it's a rectangle.
If I get that Pig carrier will the rectangle plate fit in the rear?
Once the return is done then I'm going to buy a corner-cut plate and get squared away.
I would try to return both if possible. Yes, it doesn't matter as much to have a rectangle shaped plate in the back, but for any carrier such as the PIG, they are designed for shooters cut plates, and (I don't think) the rectangle cut plates would work. I've never used a rectangle cut plate on my back, but I would imagine that a double or triple curved plate would be more comfortable to be honest. My Velocity plates fit very well and contour great in both front and back due to the triple curve.
If I get that Pig carrier will the rectangle plate fit in the rear?
The rear pouch is the same size as the front, so no, your plate will not fit in the rear.
Logicalpath
08-02-11, 23:08
The rear pouch is the same size as the front, so no, your plate will not fit in the rear.
Sweet! Thanks again for the info, guess I'll be pushing to get them all returned tomorrow.
Some very insightful info in this thread. Tagged for new images from Panzerr.
Logicalpath
08-03-11, 22:11
All done, money is back in my possession. Now it's time to pick a carrier and plates to go along with it.
Logicalpath
08-03-11, 22:17
That is me in the video. It's a PIG plate carrier with medium Ceradyne SAPI plates.
Do you have a place you would recommend to purchase these from? So far all results have been on eBay and I'm not sure how legit eBay is in terms of purchasing body armor.
http://www.skdtac.com/Tactical_Armor_Plates_s/290.htm
http://stores.greygrouptraining.com/-strse-ARMOR-RIFLE-PLATE-%26-SOFT-cln-RIFLE-PLATES/Categories.bok
Logicalpath
08-03-11, 22:27
http://www.skdtac.com/Tactical_Armor_Plates_s/290.htm
http://stores.greygrouptraining.com/-strse-ARMOR-RIFLE-PLATE-%26-SOFT-cln-RIFLE-PLATES/Categories.bok
Damn! Grey Group has some expensive plates.
Is there a way to figure out whether medium or large is the right size for me?
Measure yourself per the following: https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1057127&postcount=31
Match the size dimensions of the desired plate to those measurements. Voila, that's your size.
Logicalpath
08-04-11, 00:28
Measure yourself per the following: https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1057127&postcount=31
Match the size dimensions of the desired plate to those measurements. Voila, that's your size.
Thank you sir and thanks to everyone that helped me correct the mistakes I made with this particular equipment.
Logicalpath
08-04-11, 09:16
Final question: If I run the PIGS carrier can I still run a gruntgears war belt at the same time?
Iraq Ninja
08-04-11, 09:26
Final question: If I run the PIGS carrier can I still run a gruntgears war belt at the same time?
Of course. I can't think of any belt that can't be used with a plate carrier. Why do you prefer the GG belt? It is ok, but not my first choice.
Logicalpath
08-04-11, 09:34
Of course. I can't think of any belt that can't be used with a plate carrier. Why do you prefer the GG belt? It is ok, but not my first choice.
Originally I was between the GG & the HSGI but it came down to the fact that I was able to get hands on with the GG. While the internet is great from a pricing standpoint I'm still not real comfortable purchasing something that I can't touch first.
RE: buttstock placement...you will find that it is MUCH easier to get your buttstock on your shoulder and off your plate with "shooter cut" plates. I tend to cant my rifle and follow the outline at the corner of the plate to get a good lock-up with my buttstock, but I can shoot with my buttstock on the plate if I wanted to due to the low profile that the plates/carrier provide.
Is it more advisable to shoot with the rifle canted, following the cut of the plate, or is it better to shoot with the buttstock on the plate?
With my stance, bladed a bit more squared to the target than 45 degrees, putting the buttstock on the plate might cause it to slip off under recoil.
Anyone else other than Ironman8, feel free to weigh in.
If squared up, the problem isn't so much whether or not the stock is in a "shoulder pocket," which is tatamount to myth to me to begin with, but that if you keep the stock to your shoulder, you have to crane your head sideways to get behind the sights. Throws off all sorts of crap, or at least forces you to try and compensate for that in ways that start affecting everything below the neck, as well.
Hence, if squared, likely better to bring the stock more toward your center, so you can tuck your chin like normal and bring the sights up into your view as is desirable.
If bladed, stop worrying about getting the stock off your shoulder, because you're angling the weapon "across" your body in such a way that you don't need to crane yout neck as much as bladed just by nature of the physiology. Bringing it more to center isn't likely to do anything for you in the absence of a bolster (which I'm not a fan of, either). If one insists on blading to that degree while wearing plate, you may just have to reconcile yourself to getting a good shrug going with your weapon-side shoulder so you have something to put the stock on.
Is it more advisable to shoot with the rifle canted, following the cut of the plate, or is it better to shoot with the buttstock on the plate?
With my stance, bladed a bit more squared to the target than 45 degrees, putting the buttstock on the plate might cause it to slip off under recoil.
Anyone else other than Ironman8, feel free to weigh in.
I said that as just an illustration of why it is preferable to get shooters cut plates. There are alot of guys who like the buttstock on the plate. That "technique" was shown to me by a SWAT guy, and I just ran with it because it felt good to me. You'll have to work with it to figure out what works for you.
I was finding that under recoil, the rifle would slip (just enough to be annoying) if I had it on the plat due to the fact that I am slightly bladed when I shoot. With this "technique", the rifle "felt" more stable, grabbed enough of my shoulder, and was only canted *maybe* 15 degrees, so it didn't throw things off enough to make a difference to me. The stability outweighed the slight cant, if you will. Maybe if I was perfectly square to the target, things would be different...
If squared up, the problem isn't so much whether or not the stock is in a "shoulder pocket," which is tatamount to myth to me to begin with, but that if you keep the stock to your shoulder, you have to crane your head sideways to get behind the sights. Throws off all sorts of crap, or at least forces you to try and compensate for that in ways that start affecting everything below the neck, as well.
Hence, if squared, likely better to bring the stock more toward your center, so you can tuck your chin like normal and bring the sights up into your view as is desirable.
If bladed, stop worrying about getting the stock off your shoulder, because you're angling the weapon "across" your body in such a way that you don't need to crane yout neck as much as bladed just by nature of the physiology. Bringing it more to center isn't likely to do anything for you in the absence of a bolster (which I'm not a fan of, either). If one insists on blading to that degree while wearing plate, you may just have to reconcile yourself to getting a good shrug going with your weapon-side shoulder so you have something to put the stock on.
If I completely square up, my short ass arms (5'7") can't get as far out on the handguards. One rifle has the DD QD endplate as the sling attachment and an MOE stock. This makes it nearly impossible to collapse the stock all the way down which would be most comfortable for me shooting fully squared. I am stuck with leaving it one notch out, but that's ok, because I don't believe my body size favors me shooting fully squared.
The first day I got the plates set up in the carrier and tried to practice, I ended up with a neck cramp and sore neck muscles the next day making me come to the conclusion that I had to get things figured out or I'd never shoot with the plates on due to lack of proper knowledge on how to get adjusted.
My carbine training has all taken place without a plate sitting on my chest and the stance I prefer most is bladed about 30-35 degrees, with the stock position centered on my chest between the nipple and sternum, or sometimes just above the nipple. The stock is two clicks out from fully collapsed.
With the plate on, and adopting the same stance, I'm left with positioning the buttstock on the plate, which seems to keep slipping when I'm practicing dry fire at home. I've also considered blading less, but the more squared up I get the less natural things feel.
I had already tried to do what Ironman8 suggested and found it to more comfortable as an alternative, but was concerned about practicing to shoot two different ways and developing some weird muscle memory. I didn't think the 15-20 degree cant was going to affect anything much, but that was also a point of consideration.
I said that as just an illustration of why it is preferable to get shooters cut plates. There are alot of guys who like the buttstock on the plate. That "technique" was shown to me by a SWAT guy, and I just ran with it because it felt good to me. You'll have to work with it to figure out what works for you.
I was finding that under recoil, the rifle would slip (just enough to be annoying) if I had it on the plat due to the fact that I am slightly bladed when I shoot. With this "technique", the rifle "felt" more stable, grabbed enough of my shoulder, and was only canted *maybe* 15 degrees, so it didn't throw things off enough to make a difference to me. The stability outweighed the slight cant, if you will. Maybe if I was perfectly square to the target, things would be different...
If I completely square up, my short ass arms (5'7") can't get as far out on the handguards. One rifle has the DD QD endplate as the sling attachment and an MOE stock. This makes it nearly impossible to collapse the stock all the way down which would be most comfortable for me shooting fully squared. I am stuck with leaving it one notch out, but that's ok, because I don't believe my body size favors me shooting fully squared.
The first day I got the plates set up in the carrier and tried to practice, I ended up with a neck cramp and sore neck muscles the next day making me come to the conclusion that I had to get things figured out or I'd never shoot with the plates on due to lack of proper knowledge on how to get adjusted.
My carbine training has all taken place without a plate sitting on my chest and the stance I prefer most is bladed about 30-35 degrees, with the stock position centered on my chest between the nipple and sternum, or sometimes just above the nipple. The stock is two clicks out from fully collapsed.
With the plate on, and adopting the same stance, I'm left with positioning the buttstock on the plate, which seems to keep slipping when I'm practicing dry fire at home. I've also considered blading less, but the more squared up I get the less natural things feel.
I had already tried to do what Ironman8 suggested and found it to more comfortable as an alternative, but was concerned about practicing to shoot two different ways and developing some weird muscle memory. I didn't think the 15-20 degree cant was going to affect anything much, but that was also a point of consideration.
Haha I'm 5'8 and being bulky doesn't help matters much either lol...I also shoot one notch out. Although I don't seem to blade off nearly as much as it sounds like you do. Stock placement without plates is probably right above/on the nipple...with plates its about an inch further toward the shoulder. I don't find it to be awkward or so different between the two that it throws me off...but I guess you do have to practice with it.
variablebinary
09-04-11, 15:13
Without getting too far into the weeds, someone summarized plate size and placement very simply.
Wear the largest plate you can until your ability to function is impaired. The more likely you are to get shot at or take frag, or even a shotgun blast, the more coverage you'll tend to want.
I could sport a medium plate, but wear the large instead to cover more of my spine and organs (vital and otherwise). The ultimate goal being, if there is projectile flying in my direction, the odds of it hitting plate is greater if my plate is a little larger.
what's the name of that stock pocket thing that i've seen. it's like a polymer scoop thing that is on the shoulder of some plate carrier system.
Any item that's specifically designed to trap a stock on an armor vest/PC is often called a "bolster," though many variants just have some sort of supplementary high-friction cloth/material added to the area that a stock rests.
So ive seen a polymer bolster device, i dont know what its called. It may be part of a specific plate carrier. It looks like a plastic saddle that is on the should strap of the plate carrier. Any ideas?
Kentucky Cop
11-02-11, 21:26
http://www.tyrtactical.com/products/details/armor-carriers-ballistic-vests/tyr-tactical-pico-assaulters-plate-carrier-version-2-fits-ceradyne-or-cerco/
I have to admit that I am not up on the plate game like I should be. This thread is very useful. Does anyone know what kind of plates the PICO takes. The carrier is $600 but I am curious on how much more for plates. Again, sorry for the rookie question.
KC
Without getting too far into the weeds, someone summarized plate size and placement very simply.
Wear the largest plate you can until your ability to function is impaired. The more likely you are to get shot at or take frag, or even a shotgun blast, the more coverage you'll tend to want.
I could sport a medium plate, but wear the large instead to cover more of my spine and organs (vital and otherwise). The ultimate goal being, if there is projectile flying in my direction, the odds of it hitting plate is greater if my plate is a little larger.
Ive always ran whatever the largest I could get in the rear, with a medium up front. Anything larger up front impedes forward arm movement, shooting a pistol I couldnt get my elbows locked. As for the larger rear plate, I started doing it in 03-04' because it helped my back on those 2 day trips back and forth to Kuwait in a 5 ton seat. Never had an issue with the rear plate impeding movement.
Hey, did anybody nab those photos from the OP and save them?
They've expired, and I'd like to see if we can solve that.
NoveskeFan
01-12-12, 11:05
Hey, did anybody nab those photos from the OP and save them?
They've expired, and I'd like to see if we can solve that.
Other pics besides the two anatomical pics?
Not sure what pictures you are talking about, but here is a link to the PDF I put together:
http://sixty-six.org/x_drive/proper_wear_of_armor.pdf
Oh, crap on a cracker....no. I'm an idiot.
I need to remember that certain networks I use don't let me see certain photos! If the little red Xs I'm looking at are like hearing hoofbeats,then I went right to thinking "Zebras!" instead of "Horsies!" :suicide:
Derp derp!
Tag for reading later!
When I'd don my Eagle PC, it felt a bit awkward because it came about to the middle of my kidneys in the back and thought it was wrong. Seeing the diagram, it appears the PC was where it was suppose to be.
Very informative, thanks.
patriot_man
04-26-13, 07:54
Pics and PDF are gone.
Which pics are you referring to? There are two in the first post. The link for the pdf in the first post was correct, but I had to fix the one just above.
patriot_man
04-26-13, 08:28
They are there now and the PDF wasn't working for me earlier. :confused:
LOL I hope I'm not going crazy :D
Thank you for the write up!
Thank you for this! I've had endless arguments from co-workers that I wear my armor 'too high' since the bottom of abdomen is exposed. I've long said I wear it to protect my heart and lungs, the most vital areas in the abdomen. I've even used the anatomical targets from RE Factor Tactical, which show people they are often aiming too low in training, to no avail!
Love threads like this. Nothing to practice, no drills to perfect. Just good info. All you need to do is read, inspect your gear, and correct as necessary.
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This post [Proper Wear of Armor (with anatomical diagrams)] sets off many warnings from my Anti-Virus software.
Apparently the website http://sixty-six.org has the problem (or also has the same problems), at least my Anti-Virus software says both have a virus problem.
m44patriot
11-03-18, 22:18
So if I am looking at getting armor for a plate carrier (I currently have soft armor with a 5x7 level IV plate in it, looking to get my first plate carrier), do I need to start by sizing myself for the front and back plates, and then use that to size the carrier?
Yes. Find out what size plates you need beofre you get yourself a carrier. Plate sizes can be found almost anywhere online, and will give you at lest an idea of what you may need.
m44patriot
11-05-18, 14:51
Plate sizing was explained earlier in the thread.
Can I necrobump this thread?!
I’m starting to put together a PC and I need some help with the rear plate. Is there such a thing as a “rear plate” or are all the plates the same and you just put one in the front and one in the back? I’m sure I sound pretty ignorant here but I’m not sure how else to find out other than to ask.
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You have it right: you get two plates, put together one in back, one in front. If there’s front/back-specific models, I don’t know of them, but it could be out there.
Is that the right height? I just got it yesterday
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201115/c611f290384c3f742bffc346e1efb796.jpg
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Is that the right height? I just got it yesterday
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201115/c611f290384c3f742bffc346e1efb796.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Looks fine. If anything it could come down a hair.
Looks fine. If anything it could come down a hair.
Ok, thanks. It felt a little high. It’s about 2.5” north of my belly button on the bottom.
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Ok, thanks. It felt a little high. It’s about 2.5” north of my belly button on the bottom.
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Better too high than too low, unless it chokes you when you bend over. Just make sure it's even with the top of the sternum.
The top of the plate, not the carrier, but the plate should be even with your clavicle. I like mine to line up with the bottom of my clavicle.
The carrier is the top of the plate. I’ll try it on and adjust it tonight and see where it lands. It doesn’t choke me when I bend my head down.
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Ok is this the right placement, middle finger on the front is in by sternum notch. Fingers from the back are on out arriving vertebrae.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201123/983e5f16228d95418607c84b4945f19d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201123/85a417c25e1c4fdef736df1a2742f79d.jpg
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ViniVidivici
11-25-20, 01:21
Front looks good, back needs to come up a bit more if possible.
Thanks for this thread.
I just tightened mine up a bit as it was a little low.
I would also make sure the armor doesn't ride up and impede shooting while kneeling or prone. Some guys wear their plates just a little too high and don't realize it until the first time they really get to train in them.
If you can, go climb ropes and jump over things wearing your plates to make sure mobility isn't hindered.
Front looks good, back needs to come up a bit more if possible.
I’ll try. I’m about out of room though. Do they just make these things for fat asses?
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ViniVidivici
11-26-20, 13:50
I’ll try. I’m about out of room though. Do they just make these things for fat asses?
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I have a Shellback Banshee, almost the same as your model. Shoulder straps are identical.
I have a pretty short torso, and those shoulder straps are VERY adjustable. Those pads, the middle part, can overlap the other sections. Gotta play with it some, but they can be made super short.
I have a Shellback Banshee, almost the same as your model. Shoulder straps are identical.
I have a pretty short torso, and those shoulder straps are VERY adjustable. Those pads, the middle part, can overlap the other sections. Gotta play with it some, but they can be made super short.
Ok great. That’s really good to hear. I’ll get to playing with it. I might need to take the passing piece out
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ViniVidivici
11-26-20, 20:38
Yes, you can take that middle part out altogether, if need be.
What I did with mine is, it's stuffed down into the front area, around the fastex buckle in the front. Did this to retain that little bit of extra padding they provide.
I've got my straps very short, at about 10 inches.
Ramon Morales
04-13-21, 04:07
Thanks for this informational thread. I must say this applies to soft panels for concealable duty armor too since your gut can survive hits much better than your high chest area.
Stumbled across your post years ago and never remembered where I saw it. It was as useful then as it is today. Thank you for taking the time to post it.
Stumbled across your post years ago and never remembered where I saw it. It was as useful then as it is today. Thank you for taking the time to post it.
Glad to help.
On a related note, I do appreciate credit if my images or verbiage is used. There are a couple of plate carrier manufacturers that have straight up plagerised me with not credit.
kaiservontexas
09-27-22, 19:19
I clicked the link to your .pdf Panzerr, and I get 404 bad gateway. Has the site been taken down, server maintenance, or has this information been moved? I would like to read it, plus if acceptable and possible save it to my ebooks, for future purposes, of which I will not be copying it, promulgating it, or sharing it in any way, and as always credit due where it belongs. Also thanks for taking the time to create this thread.
There is something wrong with the server. Message me your email address and I'll send it to you.
kaiservontexas
09-28-22, 10:15
There is something wrong with the server. Message me your email address and I'll send it to you.
Done and sent, thank you for your help!
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