View Full Version : Which is more accurate: M-14 or SVD Dragunov?
wild_wild_wes
10-25-07, 22:24
Okay, which rifle is going to be more accurate: a rack-grade M-14 with a telescopic sight, or a rack-grade SVD Dragunov?
Failure2Stop
10-26-07, 03:51
Quick answer- SVD
Provided that the SVD is in good condition and held to Soviet standards.
A few minor variables though- is the 14 shooting M80 ball or M118? Is the Druge shooting "sniper" ammo (hey, it's how the box is marked, don't get upset) or delinked PKM ammo? In the best/worst (M118 in M14/Delinked in SVD), you are probably going to be around the same in accuracy.
Jay Cunningham
10-26-07, 04:17
The ammo is going to make a helluva difference. I have heard many "magical" claims of the SVD's accuracy - but in the end, it's a semi-auto with a really long, thin barrel. Don't expect magic.
Failure2Stop
10-26-07, 05:15
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I believe that if the SVD groups over 60mm at 100 m, the rifle is considered to be in need of repair, as per the russian manual.
So it's 2 MOA minimum in the user's hands, with the right ammo.
Nothing great. In my hands, that's what it shoots like. Not magic, but very caipable. Better glass would help a lot.
Jay Cunningham
10-26-07, 07:32
So it's 2 MOA minimum in the user's hands, with the right ammo.
Nothing great. In my hands, that's what it shoots like. Not magic, but very caipable. Better glass would help a lot.
Pretty much agree with you. However, an expensive, exotic firearm like the SVD or it's Chinese NDM clone can make otherwise normal men say really stupid things because thay have become emotionally attached to their firearm.
I had a guy on another forum angrily tell me that his Drag "won't shoot a group bigger than a nickel @ 100y." He also angrily insisted that I'd never shot one or even seen one.
All this melodrama because he was emotionally attached to this firearm.
:rolleyes:
Failure2Stop
10-26-07, 08:07
Okay, which rifle is going to be more accurate: a rack-grade M-14 with a telescopic sight, or a rack-grade SVD Dragunov?
Is this an intellectual pursuit or are you considering a purchase?
If you have your reasons already sorted and figured, no problem, I'll just crawl back into my hole.:)
wild_wild_wes
10-26-07, 23:52
Just asked out of curiosity.
Givens: the same grade ammo, comparable optics.
What MOA is a rack-grade M-14 considered capable of?
Failure2Stop
10-27-07, 08:31
Just asked out of curiosity.
Givens: the same grade ammo, comparable optics.
What MOA is a rack-grade M-14 considered capable of?
Average would be around 4-7 MOA in a shooter's hands. Military issue M-14s are not in very good condition at this point. I wasn't even a twinkle in my mommie's undies when the M14 was replaced, so I do not have first-hand knowledge of original issued rack-grade '14s. The decent ones were mostly converted to NM guns or DM guns, but the Navy is still bandying about with a bunch of 'em. They are in less than *pristine* condition, and I doubt that any of those are shooting under 5 MOA.
I am sure that I will take a bunch of shit for saying this, but the '14 was a little overrated. It harkens back to the days when guns were wood and steel and launched .30 cal pills, when men were men, commies were red, and politicians were honest.
Good gun? Damn straight. Best ever? Hardly. In comparison to the SVD? Not as accurate. Though the SVD barrel is relatively thin it does not demonstrate POI shift for realisitc usage. Remember also, you are comparing apples and peanuts here.
Purpose built precision guns such as LRB, Fulton Armory, or the better offerings from SA should put you in sub 1.5 MOA with good factory ammo. I would expect sub 1 MOA with properly selected or personally-crafted ammo.
Jay Cunningham
10-27-07, 09:27
I am sure that I will take a bunch of shit for saying this, but the '14 was a little overrated. It harkens back to the days when guns were wood and steel and launched .30 cal pills, when men were men, commies were red, and politicians were honest.
I doubt it, not on this board. Guys here tend to be on the realistic side. I own a SA Inc. M-1A from the '70's and it is a great rifle and I don't plan on selling it ever. But the platform is obsolete, despite being pressed into service in the current conflict.
Then again, I wouldn't want to have to lug around a Drag either. SASS or H&K 417 would probably fit the bill much better.
wild_wild_wes
10-27-07, 10:46
I bought an M-14 in kit form (and a reciever from Armscorp) and am having my gunsmith build it up. It is totally GI except for the reciever, and it was re-imported from Israel; the barrel is pristine.
I was wondering what kind of accuracy to expect from it, but I guess I won't know till it is finished. I usually put optics on my rifles, but what I'll put on this one depends on how it groups. If it is below 3 MOA I was considering the Valdala M2 4X (which was why I was asking about the SVD comparison- 4X to me seems like a good mag for a SDM type rifle, which is what the Dragunov is), but if it is worse that that I'll put an Aimpoint on it.
Average would be around 4-7 MOA, in a shooter's hands. .mil M-14s are not in very good condition at this point. I wasn't even a twinkle in my mommie's undies when the M14 was replaced, so I do not have first-hand knowledge of original issued rack-grade '14s. The decent ones were mostly converted to NM guns or DM guns, but the Navy is still bandying about with a bunch of 'em. They are in less than *pristine* condition, and I doubt that any of those are shooting under 5 MOA.
I am sure that I will take a bunch of shit for saying this, but the '14 was a little overrated. It harkens back to the days when guns were wood and steel and launched .30 cal pills, when men were men, commies were red, and politicians were honest.
Good gun? Damn straight. Best ever? Hardly. In comparison to the SVD? Not as accurate. Though the SVD barrel is relatively thin it does not demonstrate POI shift for realisitc usage. Remember also, you are comparing apples and peanuts here.
Purpose built precision guns such as LRB, Fulton Armory, or the better offerings from SA should put you in sub 1.5 MOA with good factory ammo. I would expect sub 1 MOA with properly selected or personally-crafted ammo.
Moa with match ammo and 2 to 3 moa with good surplus.
Jay Cunningham
10-27-07, 12:41
I know this is bold but are you smoking crack ? 4 to 7moa ? Moa with match ammo and 2 to 3 moa with good surplus.
I'm no expert but I'd have to agree with 2 to 3 moa; 4-7 is excessive. The M-14 is a well-built rifle that should shoot into 4 moa.
Failure2Stop
10-27-07, 13:19
I know this is bold but are you smoking crack ? 4 to 7moa ? Moa with match ammo and 2 to 3 moa with good surplus.
RACK grade - i.e.- I walk down to the armory and pull out that M14 that has been in service on a ship in the ocean taken care of by sailors that have smashed their way through steel hatches and along bulkheads since, oh I don't know, 1967, then fill the magazine with loose M80 ball that was last rolled 20 years ago, and take an average shooter in the prone position, and yes, your average group will be 4 to 7 MOA.
This was about a rack grade M14.
Average would be around 4-7 MOA, in a shooter's hands.
If you racked the gun I am sure your results would be better, but for military issued shooter/rifle/ammo, this is what I have seen.
Now talking about the potential of a new gun:
Purpose built precision guns such as LRB, Fulton Armory, or the better offerings from SA should put you in sub 1.5 MOA with good factory ammo. I would expect sub 1 MOA with properly selected or personally-crafted ammo.
This is what a new, well constructed rifle is capable of in the hands of someone that knows how to shoot it or is benching it.
Failure2Stop
10-27-07, 20:07
unnecessary post adding nothing to the content of the thread other than to beat the dead horse.
Jay Cunningham
10-27-07, 20:31
What is your agenda Failure2Stop?
Failure2Stop
10-27-07, 20:47
Agenda?
Overreaction to a minor slight.
Possiblly stupidity coupled with sleep deprivation (I spend too much time on this forum and not enough in my bed).
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win you are still retarded.
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win you are still retarded.
Wow, just waiting to throw that one out there huh? Where's the pic of the special kid breaking the ribbon?
Anyway,
I would expect the SVD to be like most Soviet arms- good at what they were designed for and nothing else.
Is that a decent assumption? A good well built, correctly built SVD with match ammo ought to be able to shoot damn good with the correct optic dialed in in the hands of the shooter trained to fire it, correct?
But for you, me and the ammo we can get our hands on the M14 probably works a little better, no?
Please keep your comments technical in nature. Argue your POV with proof, not insults.
wild_wild_wes
10-28-07, 11:47
What do you think of my optics candidates?
I was leaning to the 4X Valdala because I'm not expecting "sniper" lever accuracy, but I've not seen any M-14s with low mag glass on them, except for ACOGs, which of course sit too high and have insufficient eye relief. Another choice in the same catagory might be the Hensoldt 4X types seen on SDM G3s, but I don't think those are being made anymore. I used to have a Zeiss 4X (and liked it) on my HK-91 many years ago when they could be bought new, but that rifle didn't shoot for shit.
As far as the Aimpoint option, I asked the question in the Optics forum "what is the longest distance you have used your Aimpoint", but I did not bias the question by saying why I wanted the info, what application I had in mind. But with the longer range possible with the 7.62, having a non-magnifying optic seems a waste, partially nullifying the rationality of a rifle in that caliber.
Failure2Stop
10-28-07, 13:01
I think that you have a good combination of steel and glass, but that would be for my application of your platform.
Your newly built rifle should be on par with any "average" autoloader.
What is your target? If it is IPSC/IDPA targets you pretty much need to be able to shoot 6" goups at any distance. 2 MOA capability puts you effectively placing all of your rounds in the A zone out to 300 yards, if you hold up your end of the deal. 4 MOA puts you in the C zone or better. Your optical choices seem in line with shooting to those distances.
Have you looked at the MeOpta K-Dot? I have heard really good things.
Remember, a magnified optic does not make you shoot better, it lets you see better.
From 1989-1991, I was signed for, shot and instructed people on various combloc weapons, to include both the SVD and the Romanian PSL. After putting a couple thousand rounds downrange, I'd guess the SVD that we had would do 2 moa and the PSL just outside that, but not by much.
But then, I was shooting small groups (3-5 rounds) and not getting the barrel all het up. The county sheriff's M14, on the other hand does about 4-5 moa.
the sad thing is the price difference... I'd go with the SVD any day...
wild_wild_wes
10-29-07, 22:14
Even sadder...I live in California, so no SVD for me :(
I think the Romanian PSL is a better gun, for the money. It's less finicky and more robust. In fact, the Romanians have the whole "doing more with less" thing down, when it comes to "improving" weapons systems.
Failure2Stop
10-30-07, 07:14
I definately enjoy shooting a worked-over M14 with good glass over the SVD.
DocMinster
10-30-07, 15:28
I have posted this info here before ...But it thought this would be pertinent to the ..."if you accurize a M14 it can shoot better than a rack grade posts" My Tank M1A IS Shooting SUB MOA with this 155gr pulled reloaded AP heads (not Match Kings)
I would be very interested to see what a SVD is grouping with similar AP ammo.
if anyone has pics of thier SVD target please post.
Jon Tank in Nebraska did all Accurizing work.
USGI TRW Trigger 4.5-5lb Crisp
USGI TRW OpRod fitted
USGI TRW Bolt Head Space checked
Jon Tank one piece NM Buffer
Gas System unitized
USGI Flash Suppressor Reamed
Barrel Crowned and flushed to Flash Suppressor
NM Jon Tank Milled front Sight
NM2A rear Sight Base with NM Windage & Elevation Knobs and hooded aperture
McMillian M1A Stock with Ft.Devon Cut
NM Jon Tank Steel Bedding Block
A.R.M.S. Mount
Leupold Illuminated MK4
Regards,
"Doc"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0012.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0011.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/Ft.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/Steel_Bedding_Block.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/103_0301.JPG
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0705.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0719.jpg
I shot it to record handloads...
she was shooting 1/2-3/4 MOA group at 100 (BTW trying out ... 155gr PULLED AP@ 2700 fps
Target is in 1/2 MOA (Small lightened Squares)
After #3 I was just plinking...Shots were 5-7 seconds apart... 20Rd Mag #5 is 5 shots.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/155AP100yds.jpg
If your gunsmith is any good you should end up with a 2 to 3 moa weapon,4x for a scope is all you need but a 6x will also work fine. I have a SA NM that will shoot 1.75 at 200 yards with a Weaver 4x scope the rifle and the scope are about 15 years old I think . have your gunsmith re park everything ,so it looks pretty . once you find out what ammo it likes you will probably be pleasantly surprised. DOCMINSTER that rifle gave me wood ! that bedding block is just plain sexy.
Heavy Metal
11-03-07, 16:28
Pretty much agree with you. However, an expensive, exotic firearm like the SVD or it's Chinese NDM clone can make otherwise normal men say really stupid things because thay have become emotionally attached to their firearm.
I had a guy on another forum angrily tell me that his Drag "won't shoot a group bigger than a nickel @ 100y." He also angrily insisted that I'd never shot one or even seen one.
All this melodrama because he was emotionally attached to this firearm.
:rolleyes:
Was this before of after 7N14 ammo was actually available a couple of years ago?
Jay Cunningham
11-03-07, 16:50
Was this before of after 7N14 ammo was actually available a couple of years ago?
His statement was within this past year.
Yes, the issue optic is not exactly designed for precision - yet another reason I raise an eyebrow when I hear someone make a claim of laser-like accuracy from a Drag.
It does its job just fine - it can deliver a 7.62x54r into a guy's torso out to 600m, reliably. But so can other rifles.
Heavy Metal
11-03-07, 22:42
His statement was within this past year.
Yes, the issue optic is not exactly designed for precision - yet another reason I raise an eyebrow when I hear someone make a claim of laser-like accuracy from a Drag.
It does its job just fine - it can deliver a 7.62x54r into a guy's torso out to 600m, reliably. But so can other rifles.
I got a buddy that is regional distributor of Horus Vision and HV sponsors him in all these sniper competetions. He is just getting warmed-up at 600m.
The man knows his optics along with a whole lot else.
That said, I found out two weeks ago 7.62x51r LPS steel core ball will destroy his gongs when his .308 wont. I hope he lets me back on his farm:eek:
I have a stash of 7N14 and as soon as I am happy with my zero using 1984 Soviet LPS, I will tweak it with the 7N14.
I am using a 8x commie optic on a PSL.
The reason I asked is if anyone was claiming this 'nickel' level of accuracy from commie machine gun ball at any range over 25M, I would have insta-smacked them with a cluebat.
Jay Cunningham
11-04-07, 00:06
FWIW, he claimed to have a "stash" of that ammo or something like it.
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42/4087-ak-47-accessories-page-6.html
I'm sure you gan get some nice results but unless I see it with my own two eyes I won't believe these accuracy claims. When you think about how the SVD operates, how long and thin the barrel is, and how mediocre the issue optics are... it just doesn't follow.
But it's still a kick-ass rifle! Extra CDI points!
Heavy Metal
11-04-07, 10:11
People like that guy tend to shoot untill they get a real cherry group and ignore the rest.
This weekend I shot my SA all USGI, Syn Stock basic at 100. I fired one five shot group from a very good rest with Aussie ball. It measured three inches . Four shoots were within two inches with the fifth opening the group up to three inches. This was one five shoot group that I didn't cherry pick. BTW my USGI SAK barrel was made in 1969.
wild_wild_wes
11-04-07, 21:39
Was that using irons?
Rock-N-Ruin
11-06-07, 00:37
I am lost here!!! 4 to 7 moa?????????? With my SAI M1A/M14 and a Leupold M4 4.5 X 14 X40 mildot with my own reloads, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes deburred etc. w/runnout @ 1 to 3K I have no problems shooting under 1MOA with this rifle, of course the more ya heat up the barrel, your groups are gonna get bigger.. I can see 3" groups or better at a 100 yards with open sights (depending on shooter skill).......... Just my experience, take it for what it's worth.
sjc3081-
Interestingly, I found something that you wrote earlier-
Soooooo
You are getting 6 to 8 MOA, and 4 MOA with Match grade ammo?
And another one:
So, you didn't even personally shoot 4 MOA?
Maybe we should find an expert on the matter?
Hmmmm, didn't someone else say that earlier? Oh wait, I was talking about abused military weapons. . . you were talking about the one you bought new.
My bad hombre. Obviously I am the one pulling figures out of my ass.
My apologies for confusing the issue with facts. If you want to accuse me of being on drugs, your shit better be straight.
In my area, young people often use the crack comment in jest. Sometimes I do because I picked it up from kids. When used on a forum, there is a very high probability that the guy on the other in is unaware of the colloquial context in cases like this one--thus, offense is taken.
Failure2Stop
11-06-07, 07:25
In my area, young people often use the crack comment in jest. Sometimes I do because I picked it up from kids. When used on a forum, there is a very high probability that the guy on the other in is unaware of the colloquial context in cases like this one--thus, offense is taken.
sjc3081 and I have ironed out our issue. As this thread continues to be read I am editing my posts to only technical information that will inform readers instead of ball-busting sjc3081.
Happy days, good shooting.
Face_N_The_Crowd
11-08-07, 11:00
I'm no expert but I'd have to agree with 2 to 3 moa; 4-7 is excessive. The M-14 is a well-built rifle that should shoot into 4 moa.
I have no experience with a 'rack grade' but it'd raise an eyebrow if it was more than 2-3 with ball ammo.
I have an LRB with a Rock tube in an MCM that is an honest 3/4 MOA gun. I've shot 1 MOA out through 700 over a ruck with it.
They *can* be accurate. They are expensive to have tweeked to this level. The load makes a big difference - work on tweeking that first.
wild_wild_wes
11-08-07, 21:25
Okay, in a related question...in your opinion, what should the MOA accuracy potential of an SDM type rifle be?
Failure2Stop's comments on M14 accuracy are concordant with my experiences with RACK-GRADE, USGI M14's--NOT accurized NM's, M21's, M25's, but plain-jane USGI M14's shooting M80 ball.
Original accuracy requirements for the US M14 rifle were only 6 MOA. (I will follow this up with an online source as soon as I locate one, in effort to maintain a factual input standard. :) )
I think the original rack grade requirement for the M-14 was 4 m.o.a.
Face_N_The_Crowd
11-19-07, 10:13
Okay, in a related question...in your opinion, what should the MOA accuracy potential of an SDM type rifle be?
2 MOA or less.
IMHO - add the accuracy of the weapon to the accuracy of the shooter (under field conditions) and that is really what the 'system' is capable of.
Very good shooters are going to shoot 1 - 2 MOA under field conditions. That means a 3 - 4 MOA system.
(IMHO) Realistically, if you add much in the way of distance (+500) with any stick greater than 2 MOA - you're likely just making noise.
Why are we comparing a rifle designed for sharpshooting (Dragunov) with a rifle deslgned to replace 3 or 4 different kinds of rifles and carbines? (rack grade M14)
At very least you need to compare apples to apples (accurized SDM M14 or M21)... Otherwise you are handicapping a very capable rifle platform.
I'm a M14/M1a guy if you couldn't tell. ;)
Of the two a worked M14 is more comfortable, in my opinion although the SVD is likely to have the better trigger. A well put together NM M14, such as from Angus Arms, will spank a rack grade SVD from an accuracy standpoint....at least til the bedding goes.
The question then becomes.....what would a worked over SVD do? :D
m24shooter
01-08-08, 17:41
That you Dave?
yep you are right........
Do you remember what you were feeding the PSLs?
I'll put my money with Dano...
I'm not a M14 fan at the best of times but none of the Drag and combloc clones I've gotten to handle in the last 20 years have had any sort of LR accuracy approaching 2MOA
Dano, I respect your knowledge and experience and mean no disrespect whatsoever. I would be very interested in your comments on the Eastern Bloc competition you fielded an SVD in. How did your team place? What did you think of the level of competition? Any comments you would like to make on this system would be very beneficial to all.
What distances did the Eastern Bloc guys shoot out to in the competition? Did you spank them?
Robb Jensen
01-09-08, 22:37
Dave F. I really think you would do best to just quit arguing.
Another mod designed this diagram when speaking about a different member than you but I think this one fits.
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| | gunwriter-------> o
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| | <------lane
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Bill Alexander
01-09-08, 22:53
There is some very interesting information here, rather more than I care to see on the internet. I also see two knowledgable people albeit from different sides of the fence.
Consider in the argument that quite correctly the majority of the Eastern Block equipment would not be the optimum nor would it be driven by the most skilled as Dano5326 has witnessed . Equally consider that given the build of the said equipment its performance would not degrade by any distinguishable amount (10%) over the time frame that the unit was intended to be fielded. The Soviets did not tend to screw up this type of analysis
In contrast a well worked M14, will as agreed beat out the SVD but how long will that unit prove servicable to that level and to where will it degrade.
I find the general assesment of the Eastern Block personel interesting. The levels of physical training are in line with what I would expect pre break up, as too is the technical training. What did you sense their mental conditioning was like and how much influence was the command structure in the correct operation of the individual combatant.
Intelligence is its own little freak show and small arms is a neglected backwoods.
Bill Alexander
I think the Romanian PSL is a better gun, for the money. It's less finicky and more robust. In fact, the Romanians have the whole "doing more with less" thing down, when it comes to "improving" weapons systems.
I think its time for me to get one.
What do you guys think is doable with a PSL with the right ammo and some upgraded optics?
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