View Full Version : Water test...got some slugs (pics)
Did some water tests this weekend. My carry ammo is normally
Win. Talon (PDX), My G17 has Speer Gold Dot
Left to right is
.38-158gr Win. Ranger, 9mm-124gr Speer Gold Dot, .44mag-240gr Fed Hydrashock, .40-180gr Speer Gold Dot, .45- 230gr Rem. Golden Saber, .45-230gr Win. Ranger
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC00794.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC00792.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC00784.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC00786.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC00783.jpg
wow that 45 slug hurts just looking at it, that is a wicked looking slug
wow that 45 slug hurts just looking at it, that is a wicked looking slug
I have a few that are Win. Talon that are just as nasty. They dont open up as far and the part of the jacket that wraps around the top is nasty
Black Jeep
07-19-11, 16:08
I started carrying .40 180gr Speer Gold Dots based on the recommendation of my brother-in-law (former USMC & current Florida Highway Patrol). Seeing those pictures reinforces my confidence in them.
I started carrying .40 180gr Speer Gold Dots based on the recommendation of my brother-in-law (former USMC & current Florida Highway Patrol). Seeing those pictures reinforces my confidence in them.
Ill put some more pics up of some Hydrashock .40 and the Talon
The .40 Talon is my M&P carry ammo. I used to carry the Hydrashock
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC00802.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC00803.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC00804.jpg
whats the one on the left in that last picture
QuietShootr
07-19-11, 17:05
whats the one on the left in that last picture
It's a Winchester Ranger.
It's a Winchester Ranger.
Those are the Talon rounds. Its the same as Black Talon without the "black" lubalox coating
Black Jeep
07-19-11, 19:25
Those are pretty gnarly. I wouldn't want to be on the business end of one. I may look into picking up a few boxes and head to the range. Thanks for posting the pics.
Those are pretty gnarly. I wouldn't want to be on the business end of one. I may look into picking up a few boxes and head to the range. Thanks for posting the pics.
Ya man. If you try to find them online, look at Win. PDX Bonded. You can find them in almost any cal.
I remember seeing them for .308 and -06. Cant seem to find em now
QuietShootr
07-19-11, 19:35
Those are the Talon rounds. Its the same as Black Talon without the "black" lubalox coating
Bzzt.
These rounds are several generations newer than Black Talon, and are no longer referred to as "Talon", but simply Rangers.
Suwannee Tim
07-19-11, 19:42
I used to love to do water jugging, it was a heck of a lot of fun. I had a buddy who worked at a paper mill and he could get as many gallon and five gallon jugs as we needed. That mill is now gone and the old women who run my home range, well they'd get their girdles in a bind shore 'nuff if they ever caught anyone having any real fun. We fired everything from 22s to 460 Weatherby magnum with 350 grain bullets loaded hot. Which would by the way devastate fifty gallons of water jugs.:D And everything in between. Learned quite a bit about the bullets in use at the time, which are obsolete now. If I ever have my own place to shoot I plan on making a water testing tank.
Bzzt.
These rounds are several generations newer than Black Talon, and are no longer referred to as "Talon", but simply Rangers.
No. I have Win. Ranger. Ill take a pic and put it up. And actually the Black talons were designed for the edges coming out and cutting. They werent armor piercing
The bullets in the pics above are PDX Bonded. Almost the SAME thing as Talons
http://www.cabelas.com/handgun-ammunition-winchester-bonded-pdx1-handgun-ammunition-2.shtml
[QUOTE=Suwannee Tim;1051867]I used to love to do water jugging, it was a heck of a lot of fun. I had a buddy who worked at a paper mill and he could get as many gallon and five gallon jugs as we needed.QUOTE]
I like getting the 5 gallon buckets with a lid and hittin it with the -06.
AMAZING downrange visuals
THIS is winchester Ranger. I used to carry it
Expand the pic when it comes up
http://www.tds-us.com/catalog.php/tds/dt44310/pd2117145/WINCHESTER_RANGER_RA40155HP_-_.40S_W_155grn_HP#IMAGES
Ned Christiansen
07-19-11, 23:17
For several years I had an oblong steel tub I made from a 250 gallon fuel oil tank-- I just cut about 24" off one end. The threaded hole for the outlet was just the right size for small paper cups, so, you'd plug the hole with a paper cup, fill the tub, and shoot through the paper cup, then replace is real quick-like. I had a scale in inches painted on the bottom.
Did it on hot days or wore a raincoat!
Of everything I shot into it, the only one to make it to the other end was a 10mm FMJ truncated cone-- it dented the other side, which I believe was 42 inches. It was mostly pistol ammo including .454 Casull, also some .223. I imagine '06 AP woulda holed the far side.
Wish I had more experience with calibrated gel to have a better feel for whether or not water testing really means something. I think it probably does but the correlation is the missing link for me. Anyone...?
RagweedZulu
07-19-11, 23:24
My department issues the 180 gr. Speer GoldDot now and I've recovered several from test media with outstanding results. And very consistent!
We used to carry Winchester Ranger LE in 180gr. And that stuff performed very well too, as you can see above. I have a collection glued to the inside of my locker at work, and the .40 GoldDots expand almost as large as the .45's. Warms my heart to think a thug might absorb a few of those one day.
For several years I had an oblong steel tub I made from a 250 gallon fuel oil tank-- I just cut about 24" off one end. The threaded hole for the outlet was just the right size for small paper cups, so, you'd plug the hole with a paper cup, fill the tub, and shoot through the paper cup, then replace is real quick-like. I had a scale in inches painted on the bottom.
Did it on hot days or wore a raincoat!
Of everything I shot into it, the only one to make it to the other end was a 10mm FMJ truncated cone-- it dented the other side, which I believe was 42 inches. It was mostly pistol ammo including .454 Casull, also some .223. I imagine '06 AP woulda holed the far side.
Wish I had more experience with calibrated gel to have a better feel for whether or not water testing really means something. I think it probably does but the correlation is the missing link for me. Anyone...?
Very cool. I really love the .40. The penetration is amazing, 10mm a pretty nice performer too. So did the .223 go all the way through?
My department issues the 180 gr. Speer GoldDot now and I've recovered several from test media with outstanding results. And very consistent!
We used to carry Winchester Ranger LE in 180gr. And that stuff performed very well too, as you can see above. I have a collection glued to the inside of my locker at work, and the .40 GoldDots expand almost as large as the .45's. Warms my heart to think a thug might absorb a few of those one day.
I was pretty impressed by the slug of the Speer. I was NOT expecting it to be that nice. The .45 is amazing, its the SAME size as a quarter.
I have a pic of the slug sitting on top of the quarter, I was gonna post it but you can really see it (the coin).
devilsdeeds
07-20-11, 09:14
Nice pics and comparison. Is that the regular or bonded Ranger?
QuietShootr
07-20-11, 09:28
THIS is winchester Ranger. I used to carry it
Expand the pic when it comes up
http://www.tds-us.com/catalog.php/tds/dt44310/pd2117145/WINCHESTER_RANGER_RA40155HP_-_.40S_W_155grn_HP#IMAGES
No, dude. Ranger is a line name, not a bullet type. The bullet you showed is a Ranger also.
See this:
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy229/QS762556/IMG_1290.jpg
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy229/QS762556/IMG_1291.jpg
ETA: and who said they were armor piercing? Neither these, nor the original Black Talons, were AP. The black coating did exactly nothing.
Ned Christiansen
07-20-11, 10:19
Very cool. I really love the .40. The penetration is amazing, 10mm a pretty nice performer too. So did the .223 go all the way through?
Nope-- far from it. 55 FMJ's did a classic breakup and did not go deep.
No, dude. Ranger is a line name, not a bullet type. The bullet you showed is a Ranger also.
See this:
ETA: and who said they were armor piercing? Neither these, nor the original Black Talons, were AP. The black coating did exactly nothing.
Ya got it. I was going through my boxes last night...I was mistaken.
I wasnt completely wrong though, They are also marketed as the Bonded PDX. I see what youre sayin though
OP - What are you carrying the .45 PDX in? My G30 will NOT cycle PDX-1's, but my 1911s will.
Wish I had more experience with calibrated gel to have a better feel for whether or not water testing really means something. I think it probably does but the correlation is the missing link for me. Anyone...?
It's missing for me as well. When's the last time you heard of a big bucket of water trying to break into your home or carjack you? :D
OP - What are you carrying the .45 PDX in? My G30 will NOT cycle PDX-1's, but my 1911s will.
A Kimber. and my cop buddy carries it in his duty SIG, a 229. I guess thats .40 though.
It's missing for me as well. When's the last time you heard of a big bucket of water trying to break into your home or carjack you? :D
If that big red kool aid guy busts in you have to be ready.
OOOOHHHHHH YEAAAAHHHHHHHH:lol:
If that big red kool aid guy busts in you have to be ready.
OOOOHHHHHH YEAAAAHHHHHHHH:lol:
Lol nice. You win!:lol:
Ya got it. I was going through my boxes last night...I was mistaken.
I wasnt completely wrong though, They are also marketed as the Bonded PDX. I see what youre sayin though
Bonded PDX is a completely different bullet....has no talons and a bonded jacket which experiences less overall expansion diameter. The PDX bullet is more like Gold Dots than Ranger Talons.
Bonded PDX is a completely different bullet....has no talons and a bonded jacket which experiences less overall expansion diameter. The PDX bullet is more like Gold Dots than Ranger Talons.
Got it. The round itself looks exactly like the ranger. I see what you mean about not having the "Talons" though.
Thanks for straightening that out
nobody knows
07-20-11, 14:18
Op have you done any test's with the 9mm pdx-1? If so can you post a picture? Thanks.
Op have you done any test's with the 9mm pdx-1? If so can you post a picture? Thanks.
I havent but im planning on it with the G17. Now is it the PDX-1 or the Ranger you want to see?
Wish I had more experience with calibrated gel to have a better feel for whether or not water testing really means something. I think it probably does but the correlation is the missing link for me. Anyone...?
2 inches of water to 1 inch of ballistic gelatin.
I made a a sort of trough a few years ago for holding a dozen 1 gallon jugs of water. I held it up on a pair of sawhorses. I drilled holes in the bottom to let it drain. It was open on one end, and I could clip denim to the opening.
After a few tries, I realized the plastic jugs were becoming a hinderance, so I marked off inches, 1/2 inches, and 1/4 inches on the bottom and started using 1 gallon ziploc bags instead. Using the 2:1 (water:gelatin), I get surprisingly accurate results. I've thought about writing up a paper, but I've never done a paper like that.
I havent but im planning on it with the G17. Now is it the PDX-1 or the Ranger you want to see?
I wouldn't mind seeing a comparison between the Ranger Bonded vs non bonded Ranger. And of course a comparison of the 135gr, 165gr and 180 gr if you have a .40 around. I think I have a few boxes of 3 or 4 of these so I could mail them to you for testing.
Underwhere
07-20-11, 16:34
Here is a 9mm HST 124 grain.
It was shot out of a Glock 26 completely submerged
The ridges are clearly defined in the lead.
http://i53.tinypic.com/5cn7n5.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/10icol0.jpg
I wouldn't mind seeing a comparison between the Ranger Bonded vs non bonded Ranger. And of course a comparison of the 135gr, 165gr and 180 gr if you have a .40 around. I think I have a few boxes of 3 or 4 of these so I could mail them to you for testing.
That would be really cool. Just PM me. I have plenty of .40 pistols
Here is a 9mm HST 124 grain.
It was shot out of a Glock 26 completely submerged]
Does it matter if you shoot it vertical or horizontal when submerged?
I dont see why it would, Just curious
nobody knows
07-20-11, 17:46
Op- the PDX-1 and if possible the 124gr +P that's what I have been carrying lately. But only because none of my local shops carry good proven ammo. Thanks
Op- the PDX-1 and if possible the 124gr +P that's what I have been carrying lately. But only because none of my local shops carry good proven ammo. Thanks
Ill try on the +P. I would like to see that anyway.
Its hard finding good ammo at the stores where I live...NONE of them carry defense ammo. Maybe I can order a box
If that big red kool aid guy busts in you have to be ready.
OOOOHHHHHH YEAAAAHHHHHHHH:lol:
Very nicely played!!!!!
Ill try on the +P. I would like to see that anyway.
Its hard finding good ammo at the stores where I live...NONE of them carry defense ammo. Maybe I can order a box
Sgammo is where I order alot of my ranger ammo from. They have a pretty good selection. And for the last little bit have had 135gr .40 jhp ranger about as cheap as wolf ammo. It may be factory/gov over run but it shoots great.
Underwhere
07-22-11, 00:03
Does it matter if you shoot it vertical or horizontal when submerged?
I dont see why it would, Just curious
I just noted that because I wasn't sure whether you shot your rounds into the water (air in the barrel, air outside the barrel, bullet impacts water).
Or whether you shot them submerged (water in the barrel as a possible obstruction, JHP begins to expand within the barrel)
The bullets still traveled about 15-20 feet away under water with no current. Was pretty interesting to see.
I just noted that because I wasn't sure whether you shot your rounds into the water (air in the barrel, air outside the barrel, bullet impacts water).
Or whether you shot them submerged (water in the barrel as a possible obstruction, JHP begins to expand within the barrel)
The bullets still traveled about 15-20 feet away under water with no current. Was pretty interesting to see.
I usually shoot vertical, straight down...into a30 gallon can.
The muzzle is roughly 24" to 30" above the waterline.
I have never tried it submerged, I know the glock is capable, not sure about the M&P, (the .40).
So what do you recomend? Im getting some nice slugs. Good expansion, and actually the .45 expands so far sometimes that it will "peel" the jacket right off, so Im left with a two-piece slug.
I started the testing a few months ago with a tupperware storage bin, it was only about 22"-24" deep, about 30" long.
It was enough to get a nice mushroom out of the .45, actually it would touch the bottom, so the bin broke
Thanks for doing this type of comparison! I like the ranger rounds, followed by speer gold dots.
Underwhere
07-22-11, 07:25
I usually shoot vertical, straight down...into a30 gallon can.
The muzzle is roughly 24" to 30" above the waterline.
I have never tried it submerged, I know the glock is capable, not sure about the M&P, (the .40).
So what do you recomend? Im getting some nice slugs. Good expansion, and actually the .45 expands so far sometimes that it will "peel" the jacket right off, so Im left with a two-piece slug.
I started the testing a few months ago with a tupperware storage bin, it was only about 22"-24" deep, about 30" long.
It was enough to get a nice mushroom out of the .45, actually it would touch the bottom, so the bin broke
Our tests are significantly different if your rounds stop after 2-3 feet so probably not comparable. I don't really have any recommendations. I personally don't spend too much time on the ammo side of things. I carry HST but I'd feel comfortable with pretty much any modern JHP ammo that worked reliably in my gun.
I think it's difficult just to look at just expansion and you have to look at velocity. A smaller round moving at 50% more speed may be more effective than a large round moving like a slug. I used to carry a 45. Now I carry a 9. I like the lighter rounds, higher round count, higher velocity and smaller/lighter gun.
I wouldn't try this (underwater) with a 40. I could foresee the pressures doing something bad to the barrel. If you do attempt, don't put your ears under water. That'll lead to really bad things.
Our tests are significantly different if your rounds stop after 2-3 feet so probably not comparable. I don't really have any recommendations. I personally don't spend too much time on the ammo side of things. I carry HST but I'd feel comfortable with pretty much any modern JHP ammo that worked reliably in my gun.
I think it's difficult just to look at just expansion and you have to look at velocity. A smaller round moving at 50% more speed may be more effective than a large round moving like a slug. I used to carry a 45. Now I carry a 9. I like the lighter rounds, higher round count, higher velocity and smaller/lighter gun.
I wouldn't try this (underwater) with a 40. I could foresee the pressures doing something bad to the barrel. If you do attempt, don't put your ears under water. That'll lead to really bad things.
I can totally agree with your velocity/high round count logic.
I carry .40 the majority of the time but feel comfortable with my G17 and 17 round mags. I would never do this submeged with my pistol, I cant fit in the tub I do these in anyway lol
Underwhere
07-22-11, 13:36
I can totally agree with your velocity/high round count logic.
I carry .40 the majority of the time but feel comfortable with my G17 and 17 round mags. I would never do this submeged with my pistol, I cant fit in the tub I do these in anyway lol
Yeah I did my "test" in a secluded river. It's quite different shooting underwater.
Trying to locate this winchester ranger ammo has been difficult. Is the T series ammunition available to civilians?
Also, seeing those 45 slugs is seriously making me consider looking for a suitable weapon and training on a 45 platform for my CCW purposes. That has to be the nastiest looking slug I have ever seen.
Would the 124gr +p rangers have difficulty with things like windshields, wild hogs? I ask because last winter while tracking down a deer I had an issue with a hog that charged me lets just say, I was less than blown away with the performance of my 180 gr .40s It took several to bring him down.
Trying to locate this winchester ranger ammo has been difficult. Is the T series ammunition available to civilians?
Also, seeing those 45 slugs is seriously making me consider looking for a suitable weapon and training on a 45 platform for my CCW purposes. That has to be the nastiest looking slug I have ever seen.
Would the 124gr +p rangers have difficulty with things like windshields, wild hogs? I ask because last winter while tracking down a deer I had an issue with a hog that charged me lets just say, I was less than blown away with the performance of my 180 gr .40s It took several to bring him down.
Ya I believe its the ranger SXT. Ill post a pic of the box. Also its not just the .45, The .40 does the same thing.
I have no I dea about the windshields, were waiting for my friends windshield to crack more so we can get some testing through it.
How big was the hog? You gotta think, a 500lb hog is gonna have different results in comparison to a 160-180lb man
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 18:58
Ya I believe its the ranger SXT. Ill post a pic of the box. Also its not just the .45, The .40 does the same thing.
I have no I dea about the windshields, were waiting for my friends windshield to crack more so we can get some testing through it.
How big was the hog? You gotta think, a 500lb hog is gonna have different results in comparison to a 160-180lb man
No, not SXT. The SXT is the civilian round, and it does not have the sharp points on the jacket when it expands. This round is called Ranger T no matter what caliber it's in.
In 9mm it's 127gr +P+, not 124. And it's a mean-ass round. That's what I carry when I carry a 9mm. I keep a couple of 33-round Glock sticks full of it in the truck, too, because it has great penetration through glass and sheet metal.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 19:02
I just noted that because I wasn't sure whether you shot your rounds into the water (air in the barrel, air outside the barrel, bullet impacts water).
Or whether you shot them submerged (water in the barrel as a possible obstruction, JHP begins to expand within the barrel)
The bullets still traveled about 15-20 feet away under water with no current. Was pretty interesting to see.
What round? I couldn't get 9mm NATO pressure rounds to go six feet underwater and penetrate a 2x6 last summer when I did some pretty extensive underwater shooting with a Glock 19. 20 feet? No. Maybe a .50, but I doubt even that would carry 20 feet underwater.
The hog that snuck up on me was probably 250 pounds, amazingly it was the best shooting I have ever done with my 27, at the range I could never re-create that accuracy, I had loaded the last 4 rounds with fmj ammo since my dad told me the hps would just irritate the hog, the fmj dropped it dead (headshot) the first rounds one literally bounced off the skull, the rest went down the spine and only penetrated 1-2 inches the last fmjs all went to the head and went straight through and one traveled deep into the body, the first fmj stopped it dead, the rest were to make sure it would stay that way.
After skinning and cleaning I literally picked out fully expanded hps from it's back that didn't make it into the main body cavity
Ill try on the +P. I would like to see that anyway.
Its hard finding good ammo at the stores where I live...NONE of them carry defense ammo. Maybe I can order a box
================================
Thanks for your Thread.
Yesterday, I saw our Wal-Mart carried the 9mm PDX Bonded (IIRC) for $18 a box. Looked like a box of 20. There was other calibers but I don't remember the cost.
.
================================
Thanks for your Thread.
Yesterday, I saw our Wal-Mart carried the 9mm PDX Bonded (IIRC) for $18 a box. Looked like a box of 20. There was other calibers but I don't remember the cost.
.
You are most welcome. Im glad I can help. Just let me know what rounds you would like to see, Ill do my best to get some up
No, not SXT. The SXT is the civilian round, and it does not have the sharp points on the jacket when it expands. This round is called Ranger T no matter what caliber it's in.
In 9mm it's 127gr +P+, not 124. And it's a mean-ass round. That's what I carry when I carry a 9mm. I keep a couple of 33-round Glock sticks full of it in the truck, too, because it has great penetration through glass and sheet metal.
Okay got it, I get confused with all the boxes, and my friend gives me rounds too so I literally have BOXES of that stuff.
Thank you for bearing with me on this thread, I didnt mean to start an argument. So thank you for helping and correcting my info, I would feel bad if I gave bad info or made mistakes on what brand is which. You know your "Talons" lol
Underwhere
07-23-11, 01:17
What round? I couldn't get 9mm NATO pressure rounds to go six feet underwater and penetrate a 2x6 last summer when I did some pretty extensive underwater shooting with a Glock 19. 20 feet? No. Maybe a .50, but I doubt even that would carry 20 feet underwater.
I was using a 124gr HST round fired out of a 3rd gen G26 under about 1 foot of water.
I actually have video of this too where you can make out the trail of the bullet. I don't want to post the video because I'm in a bathing suit and could probably stand to lose 10 pounds. I don't need the internet telling me I'm fat.
I set up a beer can (full) under water on a rock and fired at it from about 3 feet away and it did penetrate both sides if I hit it in the center. A few times it did just push it over if it deflected off the side. It was hard to aim underwater.
Underwhere
07-23-11, 01:21
Wait. Correction.
I just remembered I did fire a bunch of FMJ's as well.
Those were probably the ones that went a good distance under water and the ones I have video of.
The JHP's probably fell pretty quick. This was about a year ago and I don't have the greatest memory.
Dirtyboy333
08-09-11, 21:43
BCMjUnKie: I just wanted to show you what the "Talons" are and how their different then just the regular "Rangers" and "PDX". On the box their called "Ranger T".
I finally got T-series for all my pistol calibers .380, .40, .45. Their very nasty. I haven't done any test with any of them except the .45 and thats what the pics are showing.
Also, your right that the T-Series "Talons" are not for civilian sale BUT thats not a law but rather Winchesters rule. So, you can get the T-series from police trade ins and such without worrying about breaking the law. I get mine from Ammotogo.com and SGammo.com had great deals on .40 @ $25/50rounds. Regardless, those regular Rangers look pretty nasty as well.
Ill try to post expansion pics of the .380 and .40 T-Series this week.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/a8e56f95.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02009.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02012.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02010.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC01985.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC01993.jpg
could some one pm me and let me know how to perform the water test. i would love to see how my ammo will perform.
Dirtyboy...let me say thank you for helping with the thread and doing some tests!
Now the ones in the pic are the same I have been shooting correct?
Im using LEO ammo, "Talon" I believe...or is it Ranger? Anyway I got mine from a cop buddy, he has a bunch laying around.
I have a bunch of .40, I would like to get some 9mm though, Still Im pretty happy with the Speer for my G17 carry.
Thank you again!
Dirtyboy333
08-09-11, 22:07
Well, there's not really much of a standard way to do it as far as i know. If you have access to a big barrel then just fill it most of the way up with water and shoot down into it from around 3 feet above the water.
The pics that i posted were done a different way. I got a bunch of old gallon milk jugs and 2 liter Coke bottles and lined them up in a single file line. Then i made sure i was square to the first jug and went prone on my stomach. I was about 7 yards away when i shot.
Depending on the caliber and type of round, the number of jugs required will be different so always shoot towards a safe backstop in case the water doesnt hold the bullet. For my compact .45 firing 230gr +P ammo, I only lined up 4 jugs (since i was using expanding bullets) and it destroyed the first 2 jugs and went into the 3rd jug.
Dirtyboy333
08-09-11, 22:11
Well, im not sure exactly what your using. Does the Ranger box say "T-Series" like on my 1st pic? If not then i believe their the bonded Rangers which lack the sharp fangs/talons BUT should perform much better through barriers (car glass) since their bonded. The T-Series are not bonded.
I'm still a little confused on the PDX myself, although, i'm pretty sure their not the same as the T-Series Rangers.
ETA: yeah, i still like my Gold Dots for my every day carry G23. I have both 165gr and 180gr. I bought the Ranger T-Series .40's because i was so impressed with the 45's. I'm planning on replacing my Gold Dots with the Ranger T's but i havent done any function or expansion testing with the T-Series in the 40 cal flavor yet. I do have a 165gr. Gold Dot fired out of my G23 into water and it did pretty well but i cant compare anything to it yet.
Okay mine are Ranger T. Yours are too cause they have the sharp talons.
Quietshooter where are you!! Lol.
PDX dont have the talons from what I understand for Quietshooter
Dirtyboy333
08-09-11, 22:26
Okay mine are Ranger T. Yours are too cause they have the sharp talons.
Quietshooter where are you!! Lol.
PDX dont have the talons from what I understand for Quietshooter
Oh, ok. Yeah thats what i was thinking but i wasnt sure.
Here's a 165 gr. Gold Dot fired out of a 4" barrel into water. I think i could get better results (even though it's still pretty good) but i only had time for the 1 shot since i was using jugs that get destroyed with the 1st shot.:p
Not a fair comparison because the other 2 are 45's.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/303a541c.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/edf1cedb.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/9ed82dca.jpg
Oh, forgot to add: The reason the pic of my Gold Dot looks a little different than your Gold Dot is because mine doesn't show the ridges anymore. It used to show the ridges alot better and looked more like yours but it's been a couple years since i've fired it and between handling and whatever else, the ridges have almost disappeared.
Ya I have a few rounds that lose the ridges too, it deoends on what you hit I noticed
Dirtyboy333
08-15-11, 01:17
Ok, well i did the water test today on the Winchester Ranger-T (talon) 95gr. .380 ACP.
I was very impressed with these rounds not only in expansion but also penetration. Ive been doing alot reading about how people are starting to carry plain jane FMJ"s in their .380's because they feel thats the only way to achieve any type of adequate penetration. I was about to "give in" and start doing the same but after these non-scentific tests, i feel very confident with these HP's.
Also, for reference these rounds were shot out of a Sig P238 that has a short little barrel (almost like a snub nose).
I fired 10 rounds into water and 3 rounds into dirt. All 13 shots expanded consistently and when i dug the shots up from the dirt i found nice looking "mushrooms" but the talons were all broken off and thrown off into the ground in every direction around the bullet path. The water shots either went through 2 gallon milk jugs and into the 3rd or were contained in the 2nd jug while leaving cracks and crease marks on the backside where they almost exited the 2nd jug.
Top 2 rounds are the .45 talons followed by a single .40 Gold Dot and .380's at the bottom.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/6e13ec0d.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/4f975f24.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/5d4713ca.jpg
.380's alone
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/7085423f.jpg
Lastly, when i get a chance i will test the 165gr. Ranger Talons out of a Glock 23c and post the pics as well as some 165gr and 180gr Gold Dots.
Ok, well i did the water test today on the Winchester Ranger-T (talon) 95gr. .380 ACP.
...when i dug the shots up from the dirt i found nice looking "mushrooms" but the talons were all broken off and thrown off into the ground in every direction around the bullet path.
...
....
...
======================================
Thanks for posting.
Just curious, how deep were the slugs in the dirt?
.
nobody knows
08-15-11, 15:02
Has anyone tested the 124 gr +p load yet? Thanks. Every time I see the ranger t's it makes me wonder why anyone would shoot anything else.
Has anyone tested the 124 gr +p load yet? Thanks. Every time I see the ranger t's it makes me wonder why anyone would shoot anything else.
Thats the whole reason I put this thread together, Im prettty impressed with the Ranger T's.
I found some 180gr Hydrashocks, was gonna do some tests today, had to camo the kids airsoft rifle instead lol.
Ill get them up soon, standby
Six Feet Under
08-15-11, 21:18
Pic of Ranger SXT 127gr that went through my elbow:
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/Bullet046.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/Bullet041.jpg
Pic of Ranger SXT 127gr that went through my elbow:
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/Bullet046.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/Bullet041.jpg
What??? The slug pictured was in your elbow? Story please!:eek:
PM an address and I will send you some additional ammo to test. I have some Ranger, SXT, HST, Black Talon, Gold Dot, HydraShock, DPX, Silvertip, and a few others.
Dirtyboy333
08-16-11, 01:37
======================================
Thanks for posting.
Just curious, how deep were the slugs in the dirt?
.
Yeah no problem.
I should have measured but it was dark out and was after a long day of shooting so I didn't. I would say about 7-8". After digging the slugs out (at least the ones I actually found which was 2/3. I could see the "shrapnel" path of the third but never found the core) my fully extended (straight) hand was below the ground line. I was in the ground about 2" past my wrist and I have medium sized hands. The ground was a little on the soft side with moisture. Kind of like clay.
It probably doesn't tell you much but they went deeper in the dirt than I expected and I've shot my fair share of dirt. :p
The only rounds that I've seen compare to the Ranger-T's are the HST's. I've never had the chance to shoot any but from pic I have seen they look like a worthy contender. I'm not saying others don't exist.
Just donated various types of ammo for the OP to shoot up and post pics. I included some HST, DPX, Gold Dots, WWB, SXT, Hydra Shock, Taurus Hex, Flying Ashtray, Ranger Bonded, Silver Tip, 9BPLE, PDX-1, Black Talon, and Corbon JHP.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/2011-08-16_11-21-09_111.jpg
Dirtyboy333
08-19-11, 13:02
Just donated various types of ammo for the OP to shoot up and post pics. I included some HST, DPX, Gold Dots, WWB, SXT, Hydra Shock, Taurus Hex, Flying Ashtray, Ranger Bonded, Silver Tip, 9BPLE, PDX-1, Black Talon, and Corbon JHP.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/2011-08-16_11-21-09_111.jpg
Thanks for your donation. I'm interested to see the results!!! As far as the black talons go, I wish I could even find one for my collection. So I wouldn't be giving those away. :p
Dirtyboy333
08-20-11, 05:22
So i got out and shot my G23c today and finished my "water testing" with 165gr Gold Dots, 180gr Gold Dots and 165gr Ranger Talons (all .40 S&W of course;)).
Left to right: (4) 165gr Ranger Talons, (2) 180gr Gold Dot, (2) 165gr Gold Dot.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02290.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02291.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02293.jpg
Gold Dots did alot better than i had expected. I was also surprised that the 180gr GD's had noticeably better expansion than the 165gr GD's. I was expecting the opposite. Here are the Talons vs. 180gr (better GD's) GD's.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02300.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02304.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02298.jpg
Here are a couple pics of all the calibers together. 40 cal- 165gr Ranger Talons, 180gr Gold Dots, and 165gr Gold Dots. .380- 95gr Ranger Talons. 45 ACP- 230gr +P Ranger Talons.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02294.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02296.jpg
Overall, I'm extremely impressed with the Ranger T-Series throughout all 3 calibers tested. I was also impressed by the Gold Dots but I will be carrying T-Series in all of my pistols. Lastly, .40 has always been my primary carry caliber and after these tests I see no reason to change. Expansion seems very similar to the 45's and retains a higher velocity as well as offering almost 9mm capacity. For me, although recoil is much more "snappy" on the .40, the muzzle seems to come back down on target alot quicker than the long throw type recoil of the 45.
VelveteenMole
08-20-11, 05:26
OK, Winchester Ranger includes various generations of bonded and non-bonded bullets.
First off, the civilian SXT which replaced the Black Talon on the civ market had nothing to do with the Ranger line. They had 8 petals and nothing talon-like on them.
What is now Ranger-T began as "Ranger SXT" which was the Black Talon bullet without the Lubalox coating. Yes, it had the talons still and was jokingly referred to as "Same eXact Thing" but was only sold to LE after the BT fiasco. They tweaked the bullet over the years to improve expansion reliability until 2007 when they made the talons longer and stiffer with flutes for rigidity, but with less sharp tips, along with changes to the nose and cavity to improve reliability-- this is the current generation. This revamp was reflected by a relabeling of the boxes to "T-Series," and then just "Ranger-T." The older and less reliable Ranger SXT bullets are marked as such. If you scroll down on this thread there are some great pics http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/165816-ranger-9mm-sxt-ammo-2.html
Ranger Bonded line is moving to the LE loading of the PDX1 bonded bullet. It looks like the Ranger-T in the box because it's a modified version of the Ranger SXT, heavily tuned for contemporary expansion reliability and, of course, bonded. The bonding means that while the old-style, short talons are visible when expanded, they stay tucked into the lead on the petals and are not exposed to cut tissue. The heavyweights of the current Ranger Bonded in .40 (RA40B/Q4355) and 9mm (RA9B/Q4364) are the new FBI issue loads, and the PDX1 bullets themselves were tuned with the FBI's input.
OK, Winchester Ranger includes various generations of bonded and non-bonded bullets.
First off, the civilian SXT which replaced the Black Talon on the civ market had nothing to do with the Ranger line. They had 8 petals and nothing talon-like on them.
What is now Ranger-T began as "Ranger SXT" which was the Black Talon bullet without the Lubalox coating. Yes, it had the talons still and was jokingly referred to as "Same eXact Thing" but was only sold to LE after the BT fiasco. They tweaked the bullet over the years to improve expansion reliability until 2007 when they made the talons longer and stiffer with flutes for rigidity, but with less sharp tips, along with changes to the nose and cavity to improve reliability-- this is the current generation. This revamp was reflected by a relabeling of the boxes to "T-Series," and then just "Ranger-T." The older and less reliable Ranger SXT bullets are marked as such. If you scroll down on this thread there are some great pics http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/165816-ranger-9mm-sxt-ammo-2.html
Ranger Bonded line is moving to the LE loading of the PDX1 bonded bullet. It looks like the Ranger-T in the box because it's a modified version of the Ranger SXT, heavily tuned for contemporary expansion reliability and, of course, bonded. The bonding means that while the old-style, short talons are visible when expanded, they stay tucked into the lead on the petals and are not exposed to cut tissue. The heavyweights of the current Ranger Bonded in .40 (RA40B/Q4355) and 9mm (RA9B/Q4364) are the new FBI issue loads, and the PDX1 bullets themselves were tuned with the FBI's input.
What post are you reffering to?
Dirty, the tests look great man. Thank you for helping me with this thread.
Its been a few weeks since I have tested, I have been shooting alot.
I have some ammo for testing on the way from a fellow member. Thanks again you guys
Dirtyboy333
08-20-11, 16:58
Yeah no problem BCMjunkie. That's all I can help you with though because I don't have anything left to test lol. I'm looking forward to your tests especially on the original Black Talons.
Those 180gr Gold Dots of mine look identical to yours. I was very impressed.
This is a good thread.
Six Feet Under
08-27-11, 00:02
What??? The slug pictured was in your elbow? Story please!:eek:
For a fraction of a second. Then it exited through my forearm, grazed my knee, hit my desk, and bounced off the wall, coming to rest near my feet.
That is what happens when a "friend" shoots you from a foot away. :mad:
For a fraction of a second. Then it exited through my forearm, grazed my knee, hit my desk, and bounced off the wall, coming to rest near my feet.
That is what happens when a "friend" shoots you from a foot away. :mad:
Good god. I hope youre alright now. You still friends with the guy?
Okay sorry it took so long. Times are rough lately and my water tank broke but I got some more slugs.
These were donated by Wahoo95. Thank you again Wahoo for helping out with this.
I got all the 9mm and .40s tested, he sent .45s also but due to slow times, the .45 was one gun I COULD live without.
Number 14 is a 115gr.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01255.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01244.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01245.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01246.jpg
And here are the .40s (the list with gr. is at home. will post it shortly)
Left to right: Win. PDX, Cor-Bon JHP, Win. Black Talon.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01248.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01247.jpg
Dirtyboy333
09-15-11, 13:19
it funny that you said that the 45 is a gun u could live without bc i was just thinking that as much as I love my HK USP 45c, i really have no use for it and rarely ever shoot it.... That being said, bc it's an HK, i'll still never sell it.:sarcastic:
it funny that you said that the 45 is a gun u could live without bc i was just thinking that as much as I love my HK USP 45c, i really have no use for it and rarely ever shoot it.... That being said, bc it's an HK, i'll still never sell it.:sarcastic:
Its true. For me anyway.
I would rather carry my G17 and be able to train more and afford more ammo than having a one shot show stopper that I cant afford to shoot and train with
Im really impressed with that +P DPX. I have always wanted to try those out.
A VERY nice slug. To be honest....I thought the higher pressure+softer material would equal it coming apart.
It held together quite nicely and expanded great
So I had to go pro and start payin for my Photobucket account.
It was suspended right after I put up the last pics.
I apologize for the delay.
Edit: Pics back online. .45 tests this weekend
FINALLY got the .45s tested.
These are pretty impressive, A few rounds for sure.
Im considering carrying and trying out a few new types.
Enjoy!
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01860.jpg
FINALLY got the .45s tested.
These are pretty impressive, A few rounds for sure.
Im considering carrying and trying out a few new types.
Enjoy!
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01860.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01861.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01871.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01872.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01876.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01877.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01878.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01873.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01881.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01882.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01883.jpg
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/DSC01884.jpg
Sweet! Thanks again for taking the time to test those for everyone.
Sweet! Thanks again for taking the time to test those for everyone.
Absolutley.
Thank YOU for helping out and donating ammo for the testing!
What did you use for a .45 test pistol?
What did you use for a .45 test pistol?
A 1911.
A Taurus PT 1911 to be more specific.
Im not a huge 1911 guy, thats the only one I have
A 1911.
A Taurus PT 1911 to be more specific.
Im not a huge 1911 guy, thats the only one I have
Cool, I assumed it was a 1911. I asked because I had another guy ask me once he saw the pics.
Oh got it.
I used:
G17
M&P .40
PT1911
Sorry for the necropost here...
I've been doing some searching for bulk 9mm Ranger T-Series and I'm finding two different rounds at the same price:
Ranger 127gr +P+ T-Series - RA9TA (http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-9mm-winchester-ranger-127gr-p-t-series-ra9ta)
Ranger 124gr +P T-Series - RA9124TP (http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-winchester-ranger-9mm-t-series-p-ra9124tp)
Is there a significant difference between these? My instincts are telling me to go with the +P+...
And thanks BCmJUnKie for the pics and tests!
Sorry for the necropost here...
I've been doing some searching for bulk 9mm Ranger T-Series and I'm finding two different rounds at the same price:
Ranger 127gr +P+ T-Series - RA9TA (http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-9mm-winchester-ranger-127gr-p-t-series-ra9ta)
Ranger 124gr +P T-Series - RA9124TP (http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-winchester-ranger-9mm-t-series-p-ra9124tp)
Is there a significant difference between these? My instincts are telling me to go with the +P+...
And thanks BCmJUnKie for the pics and tests!
Its the same round, different pressure.
I dont usually use a +P.
You are most welcome. Also thanks to Wahoo for donating ammo (that I need to send back)
And aslo DirtyBoy for helping with testing.
That's what I was thinking. The 3gr difference didn't make much sense to me though. Maybe I will start with a box of each and see if either shoots similar to the bulk Winchester Q4318 that I have coming in. I'm not sure if I should expect much of a difference between them in a G19, I just picked it up and haven't had the chance to run it much yet.
ETA: Maybe I'm just worrying about minutiae between these two rounds haha! Thanks for the answer though!
...Wish I had more experience with calibrated gel to have a better feel for whether or not water testing really means something. I think it probably does but the correlation is the missing link for me. Anyone...?
I know this is old, but couldn't help. Gel strength is measured in 'bloom.' Which is influenced by two variables: temp and mixture (% content) of the gel solution. Think of bloom as the water binding capacity of the gel.
There are two types of gel (that I know of, food industry experience): Hide and pig skin. And the viscosity (at a constant temp) of the gel has a direct linear correlation to the bloom. For a 6.67% pig skin concentration, the slope of that linear equation is close to .012. But your constant changes depending on what type of gel you use. Ex: Viscosity (mPa*s) = .012x + b. Where x = your bloom value and b is your constant per your gel you used.
Find your viscosity of the ballistics gel, find the slope of your % mixture for your linear relationship of bloom to viscosity. You'll be able to identify the ratio viscosity to water.
Very nice!
I wish I had the materials to make my own gel.
REAL gel though.
I did the wate testing basically to show the expansion of different slugs.
I'm kind of limited but still happy with the results
Very nice!
I wish I had the materials to make my own gel.
REAL gel though.
I did the wate testing basically to show the expansion of different slugs.
I'm kind of limited but still happy with the results
According to wikipedia, 250 bloom is ballistics gel. So once you would find the slope and constant of that linear relationship between the viscosity and bloom, you'll have your ratio to compare to water.
Not sure how significant elasticity (of the gel) would be on the penetration depth, however.
BCM,
What firearm and barrel length did you use for the .38-158grn Win. Ranger?
According to wikipedia, 250 bloom is ballistics gel. So once you would find the slope and constant of that linear relationship between the viscosity and bloom, you'll have your ratio to compare to water.
Not sure how significant elasticity (of the gel) would be on the penetration depth, however.
Viscosity of ballistics gelatin: 44 +/- 2.0 mPa*s
http://www.gelatininnovations.com/PDF_Files/Ordnance_gelatin_B121508BB.pdf
Viscosity of water: .890 mPa*s @ room temp
Ratio: 49.3
This doesn't pass a logic test. Who knows if that 44 number is even right and what temp it is for.
Let me debunk myself: My original line of thinking may work if ballistics gel was a fluid. Water is a fluid, like air. Gel is ~10% pig skin (solid). bullets are lethal due to their resistence to drag forces (fluid) and their behavior when impacting a solid (change of momentum causes tumble/fragmentation). So we're discussion two different mediums that wouldn't have any correlation what-so-ever.
Page 4 and 5 from this Army Research Laboratory study, "Modeling the Penetration Behavior of Rigid Spheres Into Ballistic Gelatin," further explains how the projectile's diameter affects the penetration depth on a solid vs a fluid. I.E., fluid it's constant, solid it's variable due to the deceleration increases the drag coefficient (makes sense as the bullet can be suspended in gel while a bullet will sink).
I am dumb as hell. I should have remembered my core engineering courses.
Link to .mil study:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA479045
At least I found this nugget of info.
blasternank
02-01-12, 20:14
The .45-230gr Win. Ranger looks awesome! Looks like it could cause a lot of damage.
BCM,
What firearm and barrel length did you use for the .38-158grn Win. Ranger?
For the test pistols I used:
G17
Smith&Wesson M&P .40 (full size)
Taurus 1911
The .45-230gr Win. Ranger looks awesome! Looks like it could cause a lot of damage.
The pic does it NO justice.
I have a few on my station at work...sitting on top of a quarter.
The slug is the SAME diameter of a quarter.
That's a big hole
Dirtyboy333
02-01-12, 21:21
Sorry for the necropost here...
I've been doing some searching for bulk 9mm Ranger T-Series and I'm finding two different rounds at the same price:
Ranger 127gr +P+ T-Series - RA9TA (http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-9mm-winchester-ranger-127gr-p-t-series-ra9ta)
Ranger 124gr +P T-Series - RA9124TP (http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-winchester-ranger-9mm-t-series-p-ra9124tp)
Is there a significant difference between these? My instincts are telling me to go with the +P+...
And thanks BCmJUnKie for the pics and tests!
I did some testing and will take some pics of the 9mm +P's. When i posted earlier in this thread i didnt own a 9mm but i bought a hard chrome HK P7 and once again the Talons didnt disappoint......
blasternank
02-01-12, 21:28
I did some testing and will take some pics of the 9mm +P's. When i posted earlier in this thread i didnt own a 9mm but i bought a hard chrome HK P7 and once again the Talons didnt disappoint......
I'll be waiting as I'd love to see the difference in them.
Dirtyboy333
02-02-12, 00:57
I'll be waiting as I'd love to see the difference in them.
Well you'll have to give me some time considering I just LIED to you all...:p I was positive that i did the water tests with them but after looking at my collection of shot bullets there were no 9mm's to be seen....I must have been thinking of the time i tested the 40's.
Sorry about that!!! I do have the 9mm +P's but i guess i havent shot them yet....stand bye:no:
I did some testing and will take some pics of the 9mm +P's. When i posted earlier in this thread i didnt own a 9mm but i bought a hard chrome HK P7 and once again the Talons didnt disappoint......
I will be standing by for this, thank you! I was about to do some testing of my own out of the 19, there's a show Saturday so I was hoping to find a box there. I have some Gold Dot and Golden Saber lying around already.
Dirtyboy333
02-02-12, 17:46
ok i will try my hardest to do this tomorrow morning...I gotta be at work at 8pm tomorrow and need to be in bed by noon so i'll have the morning to piss around.....Just to be clear, i only have the +P's and will not be able to compare them to the +P+. When I ordered them from SGammo they were offering both. I went with the less powerful Talons bc i wasnt sure if the HK was rated for +P+. Now that i think about it, i beleive it would have been fine.
BTW: I've always been a huge supporter of ammotogo.com but since i've found SGammo i have never gone back!!! They seem to have a better selection and cheaper prices. They also ship very fast.:) ammotogo is still great as well and i have nothing negative to say about them.
Excellent, I look forward to seeing the results, thank you!
sgammo.com does have a really good selection. If I can't find much at this upcoming gunshow, I'm going to be ordering some from them.
I agree the Ranger T 127g+P+ is a nasty round. It's the HOTTEST 9 mm I have ever seen. In fact it is so hot that we had trouble running it in our teams MP5's because of the fluted chambers. The case would expand and engage the fluting and cause FTE/FTE problems, but It ran quite well in my G17.
We had very good success with Hydrashock 124+P+. I put a couple rounds of it into a black bear and it preformed very well. I recovered the bullets and they expanded well too. Wish I could find those bullets.
I rarely carry a 9mm, but when I do its loaded with 124g+P+ Hydrashock.
Until that day,
Darkop
Dirtyboy333
02-04-12, 10:02
Sorry guys......I've been trying to contact my uncle (which i eventually did), who's normally readily available, because thats where I have to do the tests. My uncles father-in-law passed.
I live in town (can't discharge any firearms) and my uncle has a nice little horse stable with a big water barrel that i use for my testing (i no longer use jugs bc its a pain in the butt).
Anyway, I'll get those 9mm's asap. If your going to a gun show i would say buy +P's. I'm very confident they'll do fine and be plenty powerful enough in a pistol without the need of those super-hot +P+'s.
davidjinks
02-04-12, 19:59
Winchester Ranger is my most favorite carry round followed by the GDHP.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/Ammunition/DSC01416.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/Ammunition/DSC01414.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/Ammunition/DSC01491.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/Ammunition/DSC01489.jpg
I wish I had more time at home for the gel. Water is the easiest medium I can use for now.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/Ammunition/DSC01499.jpg
Dirtyboy333
02-08-12, 18:36
I gotta admit, after the great results i've had with the .380, .40 and .45 Ranger Talons, I'm kind of disappointed with the 9mm +P's......
All variables were the same (different guns of course;)) for this test except that these 9mm's were fired today in snowy/icy weather and the rest of the Talons were fired in warm weather.
The pedals/talons didnt seem to peel back very much and you can see in the last pic that there's alot more bullet behind the mushroom than usual. The rest of the calibers expanded and flattened out and the 9mm is taller than the rest by a good bit as i look at all of them right now.
You can see that the lead didnt deform much compared to the others and i'm wondering if that might have to do with the long nose of the 9mm hollow point when compared to the others. By the time the nose peeled back it seems like it lacked the energy to start peeling the bulk of the bullet.:confused:. These would probably have better penetration though.
One weird note from the test is that the 9mm was the only caliber to crack the rubbermaid "agricultural" (thicker and stronger) barrel/garbage can. The 1st shot put a foot long vertical crack in the side and as it leaked i fired the other two shots. It might have happened because the cold weather limited the cans elasticity.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02627.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02628.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02629.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/DSC02630.jpg
That's interesting, there is definitely more bullet left behind the expanded portion than the others. I picked up some of the 9mm +P+ and I will try to get some fired out of my G19 by Sunday at the latest.
Is there a difference between the bullets in the +P and the +P+?
I should have picked up a couple boxes of the +P to do a side by side comparison of the two.
Dirtyboy333
02-08-12, 22:23
That's interesting, there is definitely more bullet left behind the expanded portion than the others. I picked up some of the 9mm +P+ and I will try to get some fired out of my G19 by Sunday at the latest.
Is there a difference between the bullets in the +P and the +P+?
I should have picked up a couple boxes of the +P to do a side by side comparison of the two.
Yeah, it is kind of weird that they didn't expand much. It's not that they're horrible but definitely not up to par with the others i've "tested".
I honestly have no idea about the +P+'s. Darkop said that they were super hot so I would think that would help expansion a little but i really don't know.
Those are really nice little slugs, despite the complete expansion.
Those would STILL wreck someone's day
Dirtyboy333
02-09-12, 00:53
Those are really nice little slugs, despite the complete expansion.
Those would STILL wreck someone's day
Tru Dat!!! I wouldn't have any concerns carrying/using them in a defensive situation. I test them again when i get a chance. Maybe it was some stupid variable i overlooked or who really knows. I know that the water level in the barrel wasnt as high as before but i'm almost positive they're outta steam before they hit bottom because they didnt leave any marks on the barrel floor.
Don't mean to make anyone mad, but the water tests are lost on me. It makes the bullets expand beautifully, but is misleading as the bullets won't necessarily expand that well in a person. I'd like to see some backyard tests with a few layers of denim and cotton with some thick pork ribs in between.
Dirtyboy333
02-11-12, 09:18
Don't mean to make anyone mad, but the water tests are lost on me. It makes the bullets expand beautifully, but is misleading as the bullets won't necessarily expand that well in a person. I'd like to see some backyard tests with a few layers of denim and cotton with some thick pork ribs in between.
Yeah we understand that. Ive done the same test with denim on a few of my ranger talons and I didn't notice any difference. Bones are going to skew everything and it's not a variable that can be controlled in a defensive situation and IMO the results would be to random to even waste time on testing. You might hit bone, you might not but water test's give you a good measuring stick for everything else.
Finally got a chance to do some tests with the Glock 19 today. Results were typical for 9mm. I didn't like the expansion of the Golden Saber, the lead tended to stay in a ball in the center. The Ranger T-Series and the Gold Dot were consistent.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9832/img0389ra.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7677/img0390qra.jpg
That amount of lead on the front of the Golden Sabre could be a good thing on live targets. More potential for carrying energy past bones and still having a decent sized hole. You can have a round that expands wonderfully in water tests, but fails to penetrate far enough to be super effective on live targets.
I carry the Gold Dots in my G17...I love them. The alwyas perform great.
I want to get some Ranger T in 9mm. If anyone wants to trade some 9mm Ranger T for some .45 or .40 Ranger T, shoot me a PM.
The Golden saber looks exactly like the ones I have tested. They look great.
Thank you for contributing to my thread!!
Its nice to have other testing
I fired a total of five rounds for each type. They all looked pretty similar to the pics that I posted. The jacket separated from the lead core with the other three Golden Sabers that I fired though. Did any of yours separate?
My cousin fired eight rounds of the T-Series from his 1911 and only two of them stayed intact, the other six separated.
I fired a total of five rounds for each type. They all looked pretty similar to the pics that I posted. The jacket separated from the lead core with the other three Golden Sabers that I fired though. Did any of yours separate?
My cousin fired eight rounds of the T-Series from his 1911 and only two of them stayed intact, the other six separated.
What were you using?
water?
Any kind of barrier, phonebook, denim etc.
Were you shooting in water straight down?
How deep was the water?
What were you using?
water?
Any kind of barrier, phonebook, denim etc.
Were you shooting in water straight down?
How deep was the water?
Sorry, I should have provided some details. I wanted to use a barrier such as denim but I didn't have the time to dig out an old pair of jeans. I fired straight down into water that was approximately 4' deep.
Looks like I'm gonna have to get me some Winchester Ranger.
Shooting straight down is where I ran into problems into separation and fragmentation of the slugs
Shooting straight down is where I ran into problems into separation and fragmentation of the slugs
Interesting, I didn't think it would affect it. The 9mm seemed to hold up well but the .45 definitely didn't. When the T-Series stayed together it was fine but if the jacket separated from the core most of the petals on the core would rip off as well. The jacket stayed intact but the petals would almost be wrapped the whole way down around and back up through the center. I wish I had pictures of them.
I have a recipe for some home brew ballistic gelatin that I'd like to try out soon.
Interesting, I didn't think it would affect it. The 9mm seemed to hold up well but the .45 definitely didn't. When the T-Series stayed together it was fine but if the jacket separated from the core most of the petals on the core would rip off as well. The jacket stayed intact but the petals would almost be wrapped the whole way down around and back up through the center. I wish I had pictures of them.
I have a recipe for some home brew ballistic gelatin that I'd like to try out soon.
The "Talons" that wrap, I have tons of pics of.
They sometimes wrap all the way down, other times they just fold back.
Take a few milk jugs full of water to the range, put a piece of plywood or a 6x6 behind it, this keeps the bullet from exiting and getting lost.
Tilt the jug at about a 45* angle with the cap down, and put a round through the bottom.
You will get good expansion without OVER expansion through it
I've done a lot of water testing going back for years. I was recently disappointed with the performance of my snub with Gold Dots and picked up some Win PDX1. Here are a couple of photos of some the loads I have tested. The PDX1 is now my carry load in .38.
http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p427/jhs1969/01a.jpg
http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p427/jhs1969/01.jpg
RagweedZulu
03-18-12, 23:18
I've done a lot of water testing going back for years. I was recently disappointed with the performance of my snub with Gold Dots and picked up some Win PDX1. Here are a couple of photos of some the loads I have tested. The PDX1 is now my carry load in .38.
http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p427/jhs1969/01a.jpg
http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p427/jhs1969/01.jpg
Funny you compare the two .38 rounds and didn't like the Speer. I recently fired the GD and the PDX1 from a Smith 642 into water jugs. I got exactly the same results from both. They were so similar I had to mark them to tell them apart later. If I carry a .38, I'm fully confident either will perform like the other. Now, is that performance enough on bad guys? I might tuck the G27 instead.
Funny you compare the two .38 rounds and didn't like the Speer. I recently fired the GD and the PDX1 from a Smith 642 into water jugs. I got exactly the same results from both. They were so similar I had to mark them to tell them apart later. If I carry a .38, I'm fully confident either will perform like the other. Now, is that performance enough on bad guys? I might tuck the G27 instead.
I may test a few more GD .38s, I was shocked at the lack of performance from the one pictured. If I can't attain better results I will purge all GD ammo in .38. The Gold Dot remains my primary carry load in 9mm however.
Ordered these Speer Gold Dot 124 +p Short Barrel on accident, I meant to get the regular 124+p, but I thought I would test them in my Glock 19 and here are the results. Very impressive though I have no idea what kind of penetration you would get from this load.
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff453/JML1911/0612121035.jpg
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