Bones of Nazi Hess exhumed from "pilgrimage" grave

[SHIVAN]

http://news.yahoo.com/bones-nazi-hess-exhumed-pilgrimage-grave-134124959.html


WUNSIEDEL, Germany (Reuters) - The remains of Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess have been exhumed from a grave in Bavaria after it became a pilgrimage for thousands of right-wing extremists.

A church official in the southern town of Wunsiedel said on Thursday the tomb had been razed and its headstone removed after consulting with Hess's family over how to handle the grave site.

"The bones were removed and brought to the crematorium, and the ashes are to be scattered at sea," Peter Seisser said.

More at link above....

[SHIVAN]

Hitler's party was socialist. Socialism, racism and antisemitism are not right wing ideaologies in this life time. WTF, over?

[obucina]

Hitler's party was socialist. Socialism, racism and antisemitism are not right wing ideaologies in this life time. WTF, over?

commies proliferate some realms of academia and "free" press, its easy to call the NADSP right wing. Besides, it makes sense, fuhrer froot loop took on uncle joe! So, he must be a right winger.

[SHIVAN]

commies proliferate some realms of academia and "free" press, its easy to call the NADSP right wing. Besides, it makes sense, fuhrer froot loop took on uncle joe! So, he must be a right winger.

Yeah, that's a failure in logic, wouldn't you say? :D

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Right/Left wing are interpreted differently in other cultures. Its the same over here, i.e. gun control is technically a conservative issue, while gun freedoms would technically be a liberal ideology.

The German Rock Band, Rammstein, has a song called "Links" (Left in German) where they talk about their left wing ideologies and how it is night and day different from the German Right Wing (Nazis, Socialists, etc.).

[SteyrAUG]

Hitler's party was socialist. Socialism, racism and antisemitism are not right wing ideaologies in this life time. WTF, over?

Looking for logic in the actions of those who follow individuals such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao and the like is not logical.

You can twist ANY ideology to make it say anything if you look hard enough at single passages and ignore everything else. This is how groups like the KKK and the Black Israelites can use the same Bible to promote two very different messages.

And yet another reason why I'd rather follow values and ideas of right and wrong rather than ideologies and doctrines which are more easily distorted.

[GermanSynergy]

When will Lenin be given the same treatment?

Hess should not have been permitted to be buried on German soil to begin with.

[SteyrAUG]

When will Lenin be given the same treatment?

Hess should not have been permitted to be buried on German soil to begin with.

Actually among the "nazis" he had a lot less blood on his hands than most of them. And let's not forget he concluded that the war with England was ideologically wrong and he personally flew to England to try and fix things.

I'm not trying to say he was a good guy, I'm not even trying to say he deserves respect on a level with say Erwin Rommel, but he was certainly a lot less screwed up than most of the other leaders and it seems he was at least actually interested in the fate of the people and the country and was willing to do something about it.

Germany would have been far better off with Hess as a leader than Hitler. Hitler sat in a Bunker while the Russians in the east shelled the country to rubble and raped the population and the allies in the west bombed it into oblivion all the while blaming the Germans for failing his grand plan of world domination.

At Nuremburg Hess was blamed for following Hitler in the 1930s. But why then didn't they sentence Chamberlain to serve time at Spandau for the same misjudgment of character?

[SHIVAN]

Right/Left wing are interpreted differently in other cultures. Its the same over here, i.e. gun control is technically a conservative issue, while gun freedoms would technically be a liberal ideology.

The German Rock Band, Rammstein, has a song called "Links" (Left in German) where they talk about their left wing ideologies and how it is night and day different from the German Right Wing (Nazis, Socialists, etc.).

What does Rammstein espouse as "left wing"?

I can see if a society outlawed guns and weapons, conserving that way of life would be viewed as conservative.

However, gun control in the US goes against the Constitution. So it has to be conservative to support gun rights.

Thanks for the perspective.

[Iraqgunz]

I don't understand why he was dealt with so severly, to be quite honest. I personally think there is more to the story. Especially in light of the fact that that he left "early" in the war before alot the killing began in earnest.

I was in Germany when he died and there was alot of speculation about how he died.

[SteyrAUG]

I don't understand why he was dealt with so severly, to be quite honest. I personally think there is more to the story. Especially in light of the fact that that he left "early" in the war before alot the killing began in earnest.

I was in Germany when he died and there was alot of speculation about how he died.


While he wasn't there for things like the Wannsee Conference he was there for the Nuremberg Laws and the Non Aggression Pact with Russia (which included the secret agreement to invade Poland). Of course if we hold Hess accountable we should hold Stalin accountable. Basically Hess was pretty much the only surviving Nazi who was there at the beginning so he was left holding the ball when the game was over.

The guys we really wanted such as Hitler, Himmler, Mengele, Heydrich, Eichman, etc. were either dead or missing. And when we finally did have the opportunity to bring justice to some serious war criminals with regard to those who ran Unit 731 we traded them full immunity in exchange for their research.

[ST911]

Rudolph Hess has been an interest of mine, along with the period as a whole. I have been to Spandau prison (prior to its demolition in 1987).

There are a number of books and authors that deal with Hess and the politics of his life, death, and beyond. Some are good. Some regurgitate the work of others. The loss of docs on the topic, or refusal of governments to release historical docs pertinent to Hess, complicates separating truth and fiction. Conspiracy theories result.

History generally blames the Soviets for keeping Hess imprisoned so long, as the US, GB, and France had moved to free him for humanitarian reasons. There are grounds to believe that it was actually forces within the FRG (West German) government that wanted him to remain in custody more than the Soviets. They assert that the FRG and Soviets had a secret agreement that the Soviets would be the designated bastard in the game while the FRG would take an opposite position publicly, meeting both the public and private needs of both countries. At the time, there was concern that an allegedly unrepentant Hess would spark new energy in the Nazi movement in Germany and abroad. Whether unrepentant or not, he certainly would have been a person of great interest, and his free communication of 40+ years of thoughts and memories was going to be dangerous in various ways. Keeping him imprisoned also kept a head on a pole in the front yard of the German people, a testament to their assertion and hope of all that such a thing would never happen again. There's plenty of doubt on that theory though as the chancellor at the time, Helmut Kohl, was a pretty strong leader and very prolific supporter of amnesty for Hess. Hess was also old, likely to die soon, and was expected to live a quiet life...assisted by state security.

To this day, the German government is typically and teutonically stubborn in dealing with WWII, post-war history, and all things Nazi. There are some pretty draconian laws on the books governing the subject matter. That Hess was even buried in Germany is surprising. Following Hess's death, Spandau was bulldozed within a couple of weeks and the remnants were dumped into the sea. It was quickly redeveloped.

Despite attempts by the four powers and FRG to prevent same, there are various Spandau memorabilia in private collections.

Formers guards at Spandau have written on the topic of Hess, and their observations are among the most credible. You'll find various blips on Hess in the works of some MI Berlin vets and historians that wrote about their larger experiences during the cold war. There was one particularly interesting paper from an MI guy at war college, but I'd have to dig for it.

A fascinating period in history, no matter what.

[Trajan]

Actually among the "nazis" he had a lot less blood on his hands than most of them. And let's not forget he concluded that the war with England was ideologically wrong and he personally flew to England to try and fix things.

I'm not trying to say he was a good guy, I'm not even trying to say he deserves respect on a level with say Erwin Rommel, but he was certainly a lot less screwed up than most of the other leaders and it seems he was at least actually interested in the fate of the people and the country and was willing to do something about it.

Germany would have been far better off with Hess as a leader than Hitler. Hitler sat in a Bunker while the Russians in the east shelled the country to rubble and raped the population and the allies in the west bombed it into oblivion all the while blaming the Germans for failing his grand plan of world domination.

At Nuremburg Hess was blamed for following Hitler in the 1930s. But why then didn't they sentence Chamberlain to serve time at Spandau for the same misjudgment of character?

Yeah, but mentally speaking wasn't Hess one of the crazier ones?

He flew to Britain because "the stars were right".

Good thread. The Nazi's are a great interest of mine. Interesting period of time.

[SteyrAUG]

Yeah, but mentally speaking wasn't Hess one of the crazier ones?

He flew to Britain because "the stars were right".

Good thread. The Nazi's are a great interest of mine. Interesting period of time.


Yeah, but if we lock up everyone with occult beliefs the cells are gonna fill up fast and Reagan is gonna be pissed that his wife is in there. And the occult beliefs of Hess don't even begin to come close to the batshit insane occult beliefs of guys like Himmler. Now, over the years I don't think Hess became more mentally stable.

With the hindsight of history it would be easy to suggest that anyone who bought into the nazi philosophy had to be a little insane. But if we are objective and honest we bought into quite a bit of socialism and communism right here in the good old US of A as well during that time. The nazis borrowed "our" eugenics program not the other way around.

The sad reality is, every time there is a great tragedy or hardship like WWI and the economic depression that followed we are willing to entertain radical solutions from people who sound as if they know what they are talking about. We are willing to consider almost any idea so long as somebody will just "fix it" already.

And even in times of peace and prosperity, if people simply believe they are smarter and have the numbers to impose their will they can cause great damage like the baby boomers did with the cultural revolution of the 60s here in the US as they attempted to address social injustice and instead undermined most of the social system that made this country great in the first place.

[chadbag]

As to why Stalin, Chamberlain, etc did not get put on the docket after the war: they were on the winning side.

With regard to "right wing" for the NSDAP, the NSDAP was a sort of fascist party, it really is hard to place it as it covers aspects of both left and right. However, with the emphasis on "corporate" running of industry, and not the state, it has been pushed to the right. But extreme left and extreme right look very similar to one another (think of starting at a point on the equator, and going both left and right -- you will meet again on the backside), with differences being in minor details, so it does not really matter. It has little to do with the normal left and right of the world in terms of association, and contains elements of extreme left and extreme right.

[SteyrAUG]

As to why Stalin, Chamberlain, etc did not get put on the docket after the war: they were on the winning side.



Of course, I was speaking from an idealistic sense of justice. Hess was far from completely innocent, but he did pay for the sins of those who were more guilty than he was.