View Full Version : Canton Ohio PD / CCW Issue
I frequent the Canton area while carrying ccw, this really has my attention.. This is not like the officers I've talked to who are for the right to carry. Yes, the driver should have interrupted at the beginning and disclosed his ccw permit. The officer threatened to execute the driver.. this is a must see if you haven't already.
http://ohioccw.org/201107214955/cantonpd.html
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/you-fu-with-me-cop-threatens-concealed-carry-gun-owner-during-traffic-stop/
Black Jeep
07-21-11, 20:35
I want to assure our citizens that the behavior, as demonstrated in this video, is wholly unacceptable and in complete contradiction to the professional standards we demand of our officers. As such, appropriate steps were placed in motion as dictated by our standards, policies and contractual obligations. Those steps included: The officer immediately being relieved of all duty. The incident has been referred to the Internal Affairs Bureau for what will be a complete and thorough investigation. As bad as the video indicates our officer's actions were, there is a due process procedure to follow. That process is designed in the best interest of both our employees and the citizens at large. That process will be followed in this case as in all others. Anyone shown to be in violation of our rules and regulations will be help appropriately responsible as dictated by all the facts. ~Chief Dean McKimm
This was posted on the Canton, Ohio PD Facebook page earlier today, but after looking for it just now it seems to have been pulled down.
As frustrating as the situation may be, I respect the chief and the due process of the law.
http://www.cantonrep.com/carousel/x121489646/Canton-officer-under-investigation-after-concealed-carry-arrest
Makes me a bit worried about the next time I CCW.
QuietShootr
07-21-11, 20:48
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg
"Move along, nothing to see here. Isolated incident."
Black Jeep
07-21-11, 22:07
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg
"Move along, nothing to see here. Isolated incident."
I don't live in Ohio, so I couldn't say if it is propagandistic or not. I still have to believe and trust in the due process of the law for all citizens regardless of what I may feel about it.
The cop definitely over reacted. But consider you had a guy rolling around in a shady area with a hooker and her pimp. And waits 5 minutes to mention the gun.
At least in my ccw class we were told to have our drivers license and ccw permit out and in our hands holding them up for the officer to see. And to make a point of very quickly saying we had a weapon and a permit for it.
Looks like idiocy all around in this one.
The cop definitely over reacted. But consider you had a guy rolling around in a shady area with a hooker and her pimp. And waits 5 minutes to mention the gun.
At least in my ccw class we were told to have our drivers license and ccw permit out and in our hands holding them up for the officer to see. And to make a point of very quickly saying we had a weapon and a permit for it.
Looks like idiocy all around in this one.
And do you think that makes anyone safer? Somehow a sizable portion of the states don't have a duty to inform and the blood is not running in the streets.
"I have a....er..."
"My gu....er, nope - not gonna say it...."
"Excuse me? I have a permit you need to see." :D
The cop definitely over reacted. But consider you had a guy rolling around in a shady area with a hooker and her pimp. And waits 5 minutes to mention the gun.
Looks like idiocy all around in this one.
Your assumption that she was a hooker and he was a pimp is giving credence to what the completely irrational and out of control cop was saying. The officer also told him to shut up when he attempted to speak to him on multiple occasions. Ever keep talking when a cop's in your face telling you to shut the **** up? I've seen it and it ain't pretty.
The officer's behavior is appalling and he should be fired for threatening to execute a citizen along with threatening to assault the other people present. I also believe the assisting officer should be disciplined for not intervening on behalf of the citizen.
What sucks is even if he's fired initially due to the incident he'll probably be rehired by an arbitrator, pressure from his union or just sign on to another agency. It happens all the time.
He violated the 4th Amendment and case law by searching the vehicle. He needs to be behind bars for assault, making terroristic threats, threatening the life of a citizen and multiple other charges just like any citizen would be and not put on a paid vacation.
He'll be lucky if the FBI doesn't hammer his ass with 42 U.S.C. § 1983 and more than likely the gentleman who was assaulted will receive a very large settlement that will be paid with tax dollars.
That cop is a disservice to his department, his community and that uniform.
NOTE: Obviously this isn't meant towards police in general and is directed specifically at this guy so don't take this as being anti-LEO or anything of that nature.
There is plenty of fail going on in that video. I agree that his being in that area was shall we say "strange". However, that does not excuse the behavior of either officer.
It would appear that the officer was so fixated on the so-called pimp and the girl he completely lost is SA.
I also don't understand why he just kicked them loose and then focused hs rage on the driver.
Additionally since he does have the duty to notify, he should have squeezed his balls and plainly stated "Officer, I am a CCW holder and I am carrying a firearm". Real easy. If the officer wants to tell him to shut up at that point he can do so.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 06:24
There is plenty of fail going on in that video. I agree that his being in that area was shall we say "strange". However, that does not excuse the behavior of either officer.
It would appear that the officer was so fixated on the so-called pimp and the girl he completely lost is SA.
I also don't understand why he just kicked them loose and then focused hs rage on the driver.
Additionally since he does have the duty to notify, he should have squeezed his balls and plainly stated "Officer, I am a CCW holder and I am carrying a firearm". Real easy. If the officer wants to tell him to shut up at that point he can do so.
That cop had no SA, and was clearly mentally unbalanced. He threatened to execute a citizen on a recording HE KNEW was running, but he was so out of control and foaming at the mouth he didn't care.
Granted the guy's motive for being in that area smells a little bit, but even if he was getting his dick sucked when he got caught, that does not justify or excuse the cop telling him he could have executed him and slept like a baby afterward. The guy is clearly not a threat or a criminal, he was just a regular working-class dumbass with low verbal skills. That doesn't mean he needs to be killed.
This is not an attack:
It will be interesting to check up on this guy in a year or two and see if he's working for a different department somewhere in Ohio. Assuming he gets fired for this, that is.
This was posted on the Canton, Ohio PD Facebook page earlier today, but after looking for it just now it seems to have been pulled down.
As frustrating as the situation may be, I respect the chief and the due process of the law.
It's still there:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/canton-police-department-ohio/dash-cam-video/207621069290829
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 06:26
It's still there:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/canton-police-department-ohio/dash-cam-video/207621069290829
Whoa, they put it back! it was gone from about 4 yesterday until sometime this morning.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 06:43
The unfortunate thing is that the "isolated incident" thing that everyone likes to joke about really isn't all that isolated. I've had a really bad encounter once and a couple of unpleasant minor ones in 20+ years of carrying a gun every day (now, to be completely fair, I have had FAR more positive interactions, at least in Indiana, than the two bad ones. In fact, most police in Indiana outside the city seem to view a carry license as a Good Guy card, which is as it should be) But, Indiana isn't a fair sample, since we've had shall-issue CCW for the regular guy for 40 or 50 years. Places where this stuff is new really need to have more education for the police on "CCW people are NOT your enemy."
Please don't think I was trying to defend this officer. I was not by any means.
That cop had no SA, and was clearly mentally unbalanced. He threatened to execute a citizen on a recording HE KNEW was running, but he was so out of control and foaming at the mouth he didn't care.
Granted the guy's motive for being in that area smells a little bit, but even if he was getting his dick sucked when he got caught, that does not justify or excuse the cop telling him he could have executed him and slept like a baby afterward. The guy is clearly not a threat or a criminal, he was just a regular working-class dumbass with low verbal skills. That doesn't mean he needs to be killed.
This is not an attack:
It will be interesting to check up on this guy in a year or two and see if he's working for a different department somewhere in Ohio. Assuming he gets fired for this, that is.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 07:56
Please don't think I was trying to defend this officer. I was not by any means.
Oh, no, I didn't think so at all. Your points are well taken.
The officer is now on paid leave.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 08:41
The officer is now on paid leave.
I'm going to try an experiment. I'm going to call my boss (really) and ask him what would happen if I told someone to shut the **** up and that I should execute them.
I'm going to guess I wouldn't get paid vacation.
I'm going to try an experiment. I'm going to call my boss (really) and ask him what would happen if I told someone to shut the **** up and that I should execute them.
I'm going to guess I wouldn't get paid vacation.
Exactly.. why has he not been arrested.. The other officer should be disciplined also to some measure for not reining this guy in.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 08:55
Okay. I called my boss and asked him, "What would happen if, in the course of my work day, said to ANYONE (client or not) 'Shut the **** up - I ought to pull my Glock and put 10 in your chest.'"
He said, "You'd be fired immediately, escorted from the site if you were on premises, and the police would be called and charges pressed if we could."
I then explained why I was asking. He's watching the video now.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-22-11, 08:56
The first officer missed his real calling. He should have been a gym teacher. Had a few, with slightly cleaner language, as gym teachers that sounded just like him. He might just get his dream now.
I think the cops are more tweaked that if the CCW'er had really been a bad guy with malice on his mind, they'd be dead right now.
With the last comment about getting to the tight cuffs fixed, it almost seems like the officer has cooled off and has realized that this is all on tape.
Thank God for dash-cams.
OT, about the dash cams, is the audio coming from the officer's mic or is there a mic in / outside the car that captures audio?
I'm feeling a little like Trajan about carrying in Canton til these guys get a handle on our legal rights.
One of the comments the officer made: "people like you don't deserve to @#$%#$ move throughout public. Period!" I'm hoping is not a common sentiment.
My wife was soo upset about this last night, she wants to call Canton Mayor's office and PD and have a serious discussion about this and our rights.. She's a front line fighter for sure..;)
Gym teachers.. that was good... :lol:
Update.. Wife did call the Canton Mayor's office expressing her views for the ccw holder's rights, how this guy handled the situation and her thoughts concerning how they are dealing with him. Secretary was very cordial but didn't seem to know in detail the incident concerning the incident and dialog. Mostly is that it's all in internal affairs investigation. But, that she would pass on her views to the mayor.
We talked to a Jackson county officer concerning ccw last year in length being recent holders at that time. I have to say, they don't reflect this officer's views in any way. He said they look at it like the other poster said, a good guy's card. This seems an anomaly, an isolated incident (hopefully) for that department.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 09:16
OT, about the dash cams, is the audio coming from the officer's mic or is there a mic in / outside the car that captures audio?
I'm feeling a little like Trajan about carrying in Canton til these guys get a handle on our legal rights.
One of the comments the officer made like how these @#%^@# should not even be able to move throughout the public, I'm hoping is not a common sentiment.
My wife was soo upset about this last night, she wants to call Canton PD and have a serious discussion about this and our rights.. She's a front line fighter for sure..;)
Gym teachers.. that was good... :lol:
Likely it's a belt-mounted lavalier-type mic. Here, the officers are equipped with a system made by L3 (as in EoTech) that has an integrated wireless mic as part of the system. One thing I've noticed, is that the guys who are what I consider Good Guys are the ones that meticulously ensure that it's functional at the beginning of every shift. It only turns on when the overheads are activated, and then runs for 30 seconds after they are shut down. Other than that, there's no way for anyone to get to the stored video in the car other than a Captain downloading it either over the air or via USB.
There are one or two, though, who are a little 'lackadaisical' about making sure the mic is plugged into the transmitter at times.
Not to throw gas on a fire but... A lil history. http://www.cantonrep.com/topstories/x121489646/Canton-officer-under-investigation-after-concealed-carry-arrest
Harless, 45, an Ohio native and former Marine worked as a police officer in Virginia for four years before coming to Canton in 1996.
During his career he has earned several commendations.
One was from a Virginia judge, who praised the way Harless handled a situation involving a man with a gun, according to records in his city personnel file.
Canton’s internal affairs unit has investigated 16 complaints involving Harless dating back to 2000.
He was reprimanded in one 2003 case. Harless and another officer were exonerated of using excessive force, but were given a letter of reprimand for not activating the in-car video camera at the scene per department policy.
I do not know the details on what it takes to be investigated 16 times by IA and some of the incidents could be quite trivial in retrospect. However, having an excessive force charge while your camera was conveniently left off is slightly suspect and points to a pattern.
I don't think this was a "single incident" due to the fact that he got out of that car wearing those gloves and was really jacked up even at that point. This statement has been confirmed by several LEOs who agree with that assessment. Single incident or not he has no problem judging those people for a single incident and any info he finds on his computer about them will be used against them.
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 14:31
IAD complaints shouldnt be indicative of your performance as a police officer, ON THEIR OWN.
That is when having a camera and being mic'd helps to prove that you were in fact being completely professional and the person you were in contact with was just a complete asshole.
Having had a few IAD complains and been exhonerated for all, it is something that you have to be aware of at all times.
There is a time and a place for certain behavior and believe that officer was out of line.
I am a huge advocate of CCP and look at that as proof that the person is obviously not a douche bag criminal. I would rather have someone carry concealed than open. I have my reasons and stand behind them.
Just another set back for the somewhat rocky police/civilian relationship.
IAD complaints shouldnt be indicative of your performance as a police officer, ON THEIR OWN.
That is when having a camera and being mic'd helps to prove that you were in fact being completely professional and the person you were in contact with was just a complete asshole.
Having had a few IAD complains and been exhonerated for all, it is something that you have to be aware of at all times.
There is a time and a place for certain behavior and believe that officer was out of line.
I am a huge advocate of CCP and look at that as proof that the person is obviously not a douche bag criminal. I would rather have someone carry concealed than open. I have my reasons and stand behind them.
Just another set back for the somewhat rocky police/civilian relationship.
Hopefully its a step forward in getting this hotheaded officer off the streets and a good American in his place. That said the driver should have handled it much differently, he should have known the reaction the officer would have for not stating his case quickly and plainly. The language the officer used doesnt bother me much, the threats especially towards the woman are what bothered me. Me personally, in a situation similar would have already had my hands out of the window DL, CCP & POI in them.
This is on the front page of the Repository today.
Okay. I called my boss and asked him, "What would happen if, in the course of my work day, said to ANYONE (client or not) 'Shut the **** up - I ought to pull my Glock and put 10 in your chest.'"
He said, "You'd be fired immediately, escorted from the site if you were on premises, and the police would be called and charges pressed if we could."
I then explained why I was asking. He's watching the video now.
Just as it's important to say "Officer, I have a permit to carry a handgun" rather than "Officer, I have a gun and a permit"... I'd make sure that in today's day and age, clarify the WHY first when talking to employers. hehe ;)
That said the driver should have handled it much differently, he should have known the reaction the officer would have for not stating his case quickly and plainly. The language the officer used doesnt bother me much, the threats especially towards the woman are what bothered me. Me personally, in a situation similar would have already had my hands out of the window DL, CCP & POI in them.
Most states that I'm aware of don't make you state that you have a concealed weapon if you have a permit and officer's blood is not flowing in the streets. The driver has barely had his permit, was obviously nervous, and complied with the officer's command to shut up therefore there was no way for him to have handled it differently.
The threats of putting lumps on some broad is what bothered you? Him threatening to execute him for exercising his Constitutional rights bothered me a hell of a lot more. There should be no blame shifted to the driver of the car when that officer was completly out of control from the get go.
He is a disservice to his profession, his community and that uniform and should be fired and charged on multiple accounts.
Magic Smoke
07-22-11, 17:04
As far as I know these are the states where you have to notify a LEO if you are armed. Alaska,Louisiana,Michigan,Nebraska,North Carolina,Ohio,Oklahoma,South Carolina,Texas,and Utah.
Most states that I'm aware of don't make you state that you have a concealed weapon if you have a permit and officer's blood is not flowing in the streets. The driver has barely had his permit, was obviously nervous, and complied with the officer's command to shut up therefore there was no way for him to have handled it differently.
The threats of putting lumps on some broad is what bothered you? Him threatening to execute him for exercising his Constitutional rights bothered me a hell of a lot more. There should be no blame shifted to the driver of the car when that officer was completly out of control from the get go.
He is a disservice to his profession, his community and that uniform and should be fired and charged on multiple accounts.
Agreed, but when he said what he did about hurting that lady (dunno if she qualifies I dont know her and neither did the officer) that showed me all I needed to know in regards to his character or lack there of. Where Im from and how I was raised you dont act that way towards women and they must be given the benefit of the doubt that they are a lady until proven otherwise. Now the threat of execution and bashing his head in is very, very deplorable and I am starting to change my feelings toward that, it just didnt stick in my craw like the "lumps" business did. Im also not saying the driver is at fault just that he should have handled himself differently. As I understand it, I am not required to tell an officer Im carrying unless asked in my state. However my CCP is handed over along with my DL and POI anytime Im pulled over. The few times Ive been pulled over and done this the officer looked at my CCP and handed it back with no further questions about firearms, all incidents ended with "have a good day Mr. Me and slow down for me" to which I said yes'sir . I have nothing but good things to say about the few LEA's Ive had dealings with around me. I wish every American felt that way and every police officer acted as mine have done.
MrRightWing
07-22-11, 17:24
If you listen closely, the driver tries 3 times to tell the cop that he has a CCW but every time the cop cuts him off. Once he is finally able to tell the officer he has a gun, he goes nuts, threatening to beat the woman and execute the man for "being stupid" even though everyone there totally complied with everything he says. That officer should be relieved of duty ASAP.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 17:30
If you listen closely, the driver tries 3 times to tell the cop that he has a CCW but every time the cop cuts him off. Once he is finally able to tell the officer he has a gun, he goes nuts, threatening to beat the woman and execute the man for "being stupid" even though everyone there totally complied with everything he says. That officer should be LOCKED THE **** UP ASAP.
Fixed that for you. If there were a video of me saying something like that, in that tone, to ANYONE, my ass would be in jail faster than you can say 'special privileges'. If we have a LEO here who wouldn't lock a civilian up for that if another civilian called the police and presented them with this video, please stand up and explain.
I may be wrong but I always thought if you threatened someone's life ie; execution, it would be a felony. I think this guy should be tested for steroids too.. I don't think this is going blow over for this guy, rightly so.
This guy is very poorly trained. I am not sticking up for him in any way. He was totally out of line!
First, A traffic stop weather it be for a traffic violation or for suspicious activity, all parties must be checked and spoken to before any investigation should occur.
Second, This appears to be a known contact (female) and in a less than desirable area. All three should have been separated and spoken to to see if the stories matched up.
Notice the flashlight attached to the strong side. Not any tactical awareness at all.
I almost puked in my mouth when he stuck his head in the car before he even spoke to the driver!
Rider, the first search (back seat) was a legal search at least in my state (PA). A quick view of the area where the suspect was right before the stop occurred is called a wingspan search. I highly doubt the idiot cop would be smart enough to articulate why he conducted that search but in all intents and purposes, he was not violating anyone's rights ....at that point.
I had to turn the video off when he started talking about his Glock 40 and all that other nonsense but all in all, it was lack of training.
To all the members reading this thread, PLEASE do not stereotype this encounter with all police! I know some have had bad encounters with police and I feel for you. I have been there! I am a police officer because of those very bad encounters! I wanted to make a difference in how police were viewed by the public. This guy used his lack of self control and his authority to show the public how unprofessional and untrained he really was. It is very hard to contain yourself in a potentially dangerous situation because emotions run high and lack of training keeps an officer from keeping emotion and personal feelings in.
In closing, there is no excuse for the officer's actions but you have to put some of the blame on the department for letting him on the street.
To all the members reading this thread, PLEASE do not stereotype this encounter with all police!
I honestly don't think anyone involved in this thread is doing that. Me personally, I know this is an isolated incident but it still gets me hot under the collar, at the individual, not police in general. Stay safe out there!
2 good police blogs on the subject matter.
http://maypeacebewithyou.blogspot.com/2011/07/we-can-do-better-than-this.html
http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-hell.html
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 18:15
I too have worked with guys with bad attitudes like that and as soon as attitudes like that start firing up, i peace out.
On several occasions i have just turned around shaking my head and left. Those same guys will throw your ass under that bus just as quick to try and justify their behavior.
Those types usually burn themselves in the long run and all you can do is hope they dont try to take you down with them.
The whole steroids comment. Not everyone with a bad attitude like that is on steroids. i have known plenty of guys with shitty attitudes like that and they were just assholes by nature and do the job for the wrong reasons.
I have also known guys who were sweet as pie until it gets physical and holy shit watch out! Guys with martial arts or other type training are, from my experience, the most level headed and calm when it comes to confrontations.
I too have worked with guys with bad attitudes like that and as soon as attitudes like that start firing up, i peace out.
On several occasions i have just turned around shaking my head and left.
This is the best part of working in a small town. Most of the guys who act like that are from another department and I am just there for backup. I just go back to my car and go back to my little hole in the ground. No one is bringing me down with them.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 18:37
I honestly don't think anyone involved in this thread is doing that. Me personally, I know this is an isolated incident but it still gets me hot under the collar, at the individual, not police in general. Stay safe out there!
2 good police blogs on the subject matter.
http://maypeacebewithyou.blogspot.com/2011/07/we-can-do-better-than-this.html
http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-hell.html
LawDog is the shit. CoryCop, I know (and not like I met them a couple of times at the gun shop, I'm talking about some guys I've known most of my adult life) several cops here who would have put lumps ON that guy for doing something like that. I have actually seen one of the sergeants tell a crime victim, "If you want to learn how to shoot and protect yourself, here's my card, and I will be happy to get you to a good instructor."
The thing is, you guys have to not just stand there and shake your head when one of these guys starts doing their thing - you have to stand up to them, right then and there, or call somebody who will. THAT'S how you guys can win the trust of the public back. If this moron's partner had called for a supervisor and told his buddy to sit in the car and shut his mouth, the Canton PD wouldn't be getting any nasty phone calls or emails, the guy's partner would be a damn hero.
The whole steroids comment. Not everyone with a bad attitude like that is on steroids. i have known plenty of guys with shitty attitudes like that and they were just assholes by nature and do the job for the wrong reasons.
Sure, I agree but I've also worked with guys in the past that acted like that always and were using steroids to bulk up.
Magic Smoke
07-22-11, 19:26
Does the general public have the right to request a supervisor?
The thing is, you guys have to not just stand there and shake your head when one of these guys starts doing their thing - you have to stand up to them, right then and there, or call somebody who will. THAT'S how you guys can win the trust of the public back. If this moron's partner had called for a supervisor and told his buddy to sit in the car and shut his mouth, the Canton PD wouldn't be getting any nasty phone calls or emails, the guy's partner would be a damn hero.
I agree with your statement 100%. It actually happened not that long ago in another incident and the officer should be commended. http://youtu.be/fUGqwGQAX54
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 19:32
Quietshootr: Quote:
I have actually seen one of the sergeants tell a crime victim, "If you want to learn how to shoot and protect yourself, here's my card, and I will be happy to get you to a good instructor."
I know that is not meant as a joke but it kinda made me laugh. It reminded me of something my FTO said after a suspect was run over after trying to hide under a moving police car. it went something like " i bet you wont be shooting at the police and running anymore"
Needless to say he was kicked off the scene by a C/O that day and is no longer with the company because of his awful attitude, but that is another inappropriate comment for some other time. I stick to one per post. Some people just do not belong in the uniform.
I have to agree/disagree about when you should shush the mouthy leo. In front of a civilian on a call is not the best time to confront a fellow officer. If you can do it w/out the civilian being privvy to it then rock on. We had a code that we used on a scene if an officer was getting out of hand or someone needed an attitude adjustment with out embarassing that person in front of civilians. It worked almost all the time.
But, if it is someone who needs to go, let them hang themselves. i would prefer not to have a person that is going to embarass me or the department working any more.
W/out being a LEO, its easy to say things about what you should do.
It is always best to bring them off to the side one on one and say what you have to say.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 19:43
Quietshootr: Quote:
I have actually seen one of the sergeants tell a crime victim, "If you want to learn how to shoot and protect yourself, here's my card, and I will be happy to get you to a good instructor."
I know that is not meant as a joke but it kinda made me laugh. It reminded me of something my FTO said after a suspect was run over after trying to hide under a moving police car. it went something like " i bet you wont be shooting at the police and running anymore"
Needless to say he was kicked off the scene by a C/O that day and is no longer with the company because of his awful attitude, but that is another inappropriate comment for some other time. I stick to one per post. Some people just do not belong in the uniform.
I have to agree/disagree about when you should shush the mouthy leo. In front of a civilian on a call is not the best time to confront a fellow officer. If you can do it w/out the civilian being privvy to it then rock on. We had a code that we used on a scene if an officer was getting out of hand or someone needed an attitude adjustment with out embarassing that person in front of civilians. It worked almost all the time.
But, if it is someone who needs to go, let them hang themselves. i would prefer not to have a person that is going to embarass me or the department working any more.
W/out being a LEO, its easy to say things about what you should do.
It is always best to bring them off to the side one on one and say what you have to say.
I understand what you're saying, but hear what you're saying. You are instinctively saying that cops should never correct other cops in front of a "civilian". And I say you're wrong, when the conduct is this out of line. Saying that you shouldn't pull a guy like this out of action immediately is reinforcing the 'blue wall', don't you see that?
At what point would you say it's okay for this officer's partner to intervene? Would that be before or after he threatened to execute a compliant subject who was in restraints? I wouldn't say it would have been out of line for the 2nd officer to call for a supervisor, disarm the first officer, and place him in restraints. After all, he just threatened to execute someone. Don't you guys like to hook up everybody on a scene who seems combative? ****, he just threatened to kill someone, and he has the means and opportunity to do it. Would you let a civilian stand there armed who had just threatened to execute someone?
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 19:50
HOLY SHIT! I hadnt seen the beginning of that video until just now.
These two shitheads are lucky they are still alive if they go around doing things the way do, tactically speaking. Pathetic!
If i was driving around and saw that i would have absolutely said there was something suspicous about the situation.
I love blacking out in neighborhoods because i like to catch people breaking into vehicles and houses. i hate a thief.
And my last point, that officer running his mouth the whole time is probably a huge pussy. From the beginning he is making threats of what he is going to if he does this or that. Unnecessary.
I hated, especially after a fight and the suspect handcuffed some jackass to come on scene after the incident is code 4 and make threats. uncalled for, situation over and done with.
there are far more good guys than yall realize and it sucks to see bad guys.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 19:53
HOLY SHIT! I hadnt seen the beginning of that video until just now.
These two shitheads are lucky they are still alive if they go around doing things the way do, tactically speaking. Pathetic!
If i was driving around and saw that i would have absolutely said there was something suspicous about the situation.
I love blacking out in neighborhoods because i like to catch people breaking into vehicles and houses. i hate a thief.
And my last point, that officer running his mouth the whole time is probably a huge pussy. From the beginning he is making threats of what he is going to if he does this or that. Unnecessary.
I hated, especially after a fight and the suspect handcuffed some jackass to come on scene after the incident is code 4 and make threats. uncalled for, situation over and done with.
there are far more good guys than yall realize and it sucks to see bad guys.
So you've seen this kind of thing before. What did you do?
What amazes me is that over on Officer.com he is being pretty heavily defended and anyone who disagrees is being labeled a Troll. /sigh.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 20:03
What amazes me is that over on Officer.com he is being pretty heavily defended and anyone who disagrees is being labeled a Troll. /sigh.
And unfortunately, there goes our friend and colleague 4x4twenty6's argument, swirling right down the drain. Which is not good, by the way.
Edit: I looked over there - it doesn't look like everyone is on his side. Of course, this is thread #2, there are references to one that was disappeared already.
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 20:20
Quietshootr:
I Did say that we have a way of telling another officer to shut it down with out bringing attention to it. Reread the post.
I have had to tell a fellow officer to bring it down a notch before and it faired out well.
If you must know how I would Monday morning quarter back it I would have calmed him down after he first started spouting off at the mouth. It is counter productive, you catch more bees w/ honey kinda thing.
Disarming another officer on a scene, man I have never been in a situation that would call for that. I hope to God I never do cuz that would end up bad. I can't recall ever hearing someone I worked with make a threat like that officer in the video did. Nor have I ever seen someone behave like that officer did. Dude is coo coo.
As far as my example, it was a minimal threat made to someone who had committed a violent crime and I told that officer to get the **** off my scene and a few other things.
As far as the blue wall or blue line, its not some secret organizational pact like people must think it is. Yes, we have each others back but we don't commit crimes to cover for each other. That's crazy!
We are community of LEO's and I think it is meant as a symbol to unify us. The guys that behave unfavorably don't deserve to wear the badge.
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 20:25
I won't defend that asshole in the video. Did y'all see that other police car pass by and keep going? Either he had another call to go to or he said that guy is an asshole I am not stopping. Haha.
If it was someone I particularly didn't care for, and they put a code 4 I am steering clear.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 20:38
Quietshootr:
I Did say that we have a way of telling another officer to shut it down with out bringing attention to it. Reread the post.
I have had to tell a fellow officer to bring it down a notch before and it faired out well.
If you must know how I would Monday morning quarter back it I would have calmed him down after he first started spouting off at the mouth. It is counter productive, you catch more bees w/ honey kinda thing.
Disarming another officer on a scene, man I have never been in a situation that would call for that. I hope to God I never do cuz that would end up bad. I can't recall ever hearing someone I worked with make a threat like that officer in the video did. Nor have I ever seen someone behave like that officer did. Dude is coo coo.
snip
We are community of LEO's and I think it is meant as a symbol to unify us. The guys that behave unfavorably don't deserve to wear the badge.
You sound squared away to me, and I am going to choose to believe that if you were on that scene, you WOULD have disarmed that officer after he threatened to kill the restrained subject.
I just sent the video to one of my friends who's working right now to see what he says.
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 20:50
Quietshootr, I wouldn't have let it get that far.
I'm also not one of those guys that puts the badge on and grows a sack.
My avatar was taken at a SWAT class, guys like the one in the video don't make it to a specialized division like that. Not at the dept. I was at. If that helps to tell you the type of officer I was.
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 20:54
Quietshootr, I wouldn't have let it get that far.
I'm also not one of those guys that puts the badge on and grows a sack.
My avatar was taken at a SWAT class, guys like the one in the video don't make it to a specialized division like that. Not at the dept. I was at. If that helps to tell you the type of officer I was.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUPQ8nNOiTSGcQT_W9HPcxB_kDPCX4eVupv3Kco8HSMpXiJSoa
LawDog is the shit. CoryCop, I know (and not like I met them a couple of times at the gun shop, I'm talking about some guys I've known most of my adult life) several cops here who would have put lumps ON that guy for doing something like that. I have actually seen one of the sergeants tell a crime victim, "If you want to learn how to shoot and protect yourself, here's my card, and I will be happy to get you to a good instructor."
The thing is, you guys have to not just stand there and shake your head when one of these guys starts doing their thing - you have to stand up to them, right then and there, or call somebody who will. THAT'S how you guys can win the trust of the public back. If this moron's partner had called for a supervisor and told his buddy to sit in the car and shut his mouth, the Canton PD wouldn't be getting any nasty phone calls or emails, the guy's partner would be a damn hero.
As I agree with you on that, you also have to understand that we can not reprimand another officer in front of a citizen (believe me, I have wanted to several times). There is a way to calm the situation and then in private, straighten them out but we can't just spank a guy in front of the public. Don't get me wrong, I would definitely jump in in a quickness if a crime was occurring but sometimes it's just better to just kinda change the lead officer and put the moron on deck and then jump his shit when the call is cleared.
In the eyes of the public, police on scene must maintain control of a specific situation for the safety of the public and the officers. The other cop on scene should have jumped in, had the mouthy cop stand aside and clear up the situation at hand. I don't believe for a second that the driver should have been charged with anything at all. That guy should have been released and when he drove away, I would have tore into him. I have a feeling that his partner was just as dumb as the other officer or was not his senior where he felt that he could not intervene.
Does the general public have the right to request a supervisor?
Absolutely!
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 21:20
Cory, I know for a fact that other cop is a moron because he let the driver stay in the vehicle while his ass was in the backseat.
And his partner had the black male Right by the officer who was in the back seat.
The skinny broad was probably just hanging around cuz that tough guy isn't worried about what a women can do to him.
Do that shit in New Orleans or surrounding area you gonna find yourself in a world of shit.
Pathetic Tactics.
Cory, I know for a fact that other cop is a moron because he let the driver stay in the vehicle while his ass was in the backseat.
And his partner had the black male Right by the officer who was in the back seat.
The skinny broad was probably just hanging around cuz that tough guy isn't worried about what a women can do to him.
Do that shit in New Orleans or surrounding area you gonna find yourself in a world of shit.
Pathetic Tactics.
I wasn't even going to get into the tactics part because that was a nightmare in itself. I was talking about the tirade after the fact which was not only unprofessional but illegal. The lack of tactics were the proof that these two were capable of doing what came next. As far as my area, everyone has a gun on them. This county has a big CCW department and the Sheriff does a great job on the background checks. What the two cops dealt with there would be considered routine here. They acted like they never saw a gun on a civilian before. The guy didn't even put his hands near the weapon!
Most of my experience with CCWs are "Hey officer, I have a gun.....(reaches for it) See?
My reaction to that is "WOAH" slow down buddy, I don't need to see your gun, just your permit. Just keep your hands where I can see them and no one will get excited.
Like I said before, it's all how you handle the situation. I could see these two guys in a real shooting situation.... Screaming on the radio, shots being fired in all directions, and so on. You think these two are wrong for the public, other cops run scared when guys like this are in real bad situations.
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 21:50
Cory, lol. I understand.
In Louisiana your vehicle is considered an extension of your home, therefore you are allowed to conceal your weapon in your vehicle w/out a permit. I particularly like this rule because it allows law abiding citizens to protect themselves. Criminals don't follow laws so why restrict good people.
Now that I have been living in Little Rock for 3'months and have yet To start the academy here I had to look up the laws and the only way you can carry in a vehicle is if it is in a case out immediate reach and also unloaded or if you have a CCP. I think it is an asinine law. And I am not leaving my house w/ out a sidearm so I'm ridin dirty till I start in august! Haha
I sill have my post certificate card in my wallet and some old credentials. I don't have to worry.
If an armed citizen behaved like that, he would be up on multiple felony charges.
The cop should face multiple felony charges too.
4x4twenty6
07-23-11, 08:19
Alot of the time during trials while bargaining between defense attorney and prosecutor are taking place, they will drop the battery on an officer charges in an attempt to make things move a long faster and try to leverage guilty pleas on other charges.
If there are injuries to the officer or damage to departmental policy (vehicles) they will not drop them.
Kinda shitty because the real bad guys will say shit about having past battery on an officer or resisting arrest(for example) charges dropped. I find that disturbing.
I think in this time w/ media the way it is, officers who do wrong do get punished for their crimes. It is like any other crime/ criminal where evidence and testimony have to support the claims and prove there was malfeasance.
While the fellow with the permit was likely at least an accessory to a misdemeanor, that was just painful to watch. No doubt he was stupid to be there in that specific circumstance while carrying, however things obviously spiraled a bit.
If the officer still has a job he needs to get his act together.
Here is a video of one of the City Council members about the incident.
Lets just say that we can see where the officer gets it from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBfpBxY2J00&feature=player_embedded
While the fellow with the permit was likely at least an accessory to a misdemeanor, that was just painful to watch. No doubt he was stupid to be there in that specific circumstance while carrying, however things obviously spiraled a bit.
I'm sorry but I would not be in that specific circumstance unless I was carrying. He had every legal right to be carrying aswell.
Here is a video of one of the City Council members about the incident.
Lets just say that we can see where the officer gets it from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBfpBxY2J00&feature=player_embedded
He needs to read the Constitution.
QuietShootr
07-28-11, 06:51
He needs to read the Constitution.
He needs to go drink bleach.
4x4twenty6
07-28-11, 13:05
If that dudes mouth was on fire i wouldnt even piss on it to put it out. What a ****ing moron.
He and everyone else that think like him can shit and fall in it.
VIDEO: Same officer goes psycho again. Story and video here. (http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x2014919089/Video-Officer-Harless-loses-his-temper-on-another-arrest)
“Don’t (expletive) move. Let me see your (expletive) hands,” Harless shouted. “I’ll kill every one of you (expletive). There’s a (expletive) gun in this car. You (expletive) move, I’ll shoot you in the head.”
Harless also threatened to send the suspects “to the grave” if they moved, adding, “I will shoot you in the face and I’ll go to sleep tonight.”
I realize the 2 situations are very different but this guy has a few screws loose.
4x4twenty6
08-01-11, 09:48
irish: He does seem a little coo coo.
There is a time and a place for certain behavior and this dude seems like he can't get right.
Bolt_Overide
08-01-11, 20:59
guys just a dick with a loud mouth, has everything to do with shitty personality and absolutely nothing to do with being a cop.
he was a dick before he ever put on the badge, and he will be a dick after he takes it off.
VooDoo6Actual
08-01-11, 21:36
guys just a dick with a loud mouth, has everything to do with shitty personality and absolutely nothing to do with being a cop.
he was a dick before he ever put on the badge, and he will be a dick after he takes it off.
+1 this.
WE can do a better job regarding hiring LEO's than this.
Watched it last night @ work w/ a LAPD Metro "B" platoon O / 3 LEO I work with. He was appalled and commented that the guy is a "ASSCLOWN" & "TOOL".
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-01-11, 21:58
Has this guy been watching too many Taratino movies? What is up with his dialouge? He sounds like a bad R-rated version of TJ Hooker or something.
Kind of blame the department. Either he should have never been hired, or someone should have pulled him off line and gotten him some help before now.
Mauser KAR98K
08-03-11, 11:51
Just plain bad professionalism. You just can't treat the public this way all the time. (Second vid, maybe in that case given that the circumstances are not know, but damn, don't go threatening to kill people).
4x4twenty6
08-04-11, 11:16
Bad People slip through the hiring process fairly often, some of them become corrupt after already being on the job. But, I dont think it is fair to label them as becoming corrupt from their job title/ position.
They had it in them already, just had not yet come to a head.
We had a few slip through in my academy a few years back, one guy was in a relationship w/ a 12 year old till she was 15. parents new about it the whole time. parents was class a trailer trash. needless to say he is serving time.
Another arrested for rape and sexual assault but he got kicked out of the academy prior to it.
Another for dope after being w/ the dept for a few years.
Just a few examples, unfortunately there are very many more.
Maybe it is becasue of the low wages that better quality people cant be hired. With higher wages you can demand higher standards for education and fitness maybe. When your hiring pool is a cesspool you know what you are going to get.
Us folks that do it for the right reasons get lumped into the same category as the bad ones more often than not.
CANTON —A city police officer at the center of a controversial traffic stop involving a man with a permit to carry a concealed handgun has been fired.
Bill Adams, president of the Canton Police Patrolmen’s Association, the union that represents Patrolman Daniel Harless, confirmed that city Safety Director Thomas Ream ruled that Harless is no longer a member of the city’s police force.
Ream issued a three-page ruling dated Tuesday.
“It is quite clear that (Harless’) actions represented a pattern of behavior where inappropriate verbal abuse and threats of death or great bodily harm of the various complainants occurred,” Ream wrote.
“This escalating pattern of potentially dangerous behavior cannot be justified or excused and clearly illustrates the seriousness of the departmental infractions.”
Harless plans to appeal the decision, Adams said.
Harless was accused of violating police department rules during the June 8 traffic stop during which police cruiser video shows Harless berating and threatening a man pulled over around 1:30 a.m. on Newton Avenue NW.
Harless unleashed a flurry of profanities at the driver, shouting he should have gunned down the driver, William E. Barlett, for being stupid.
The cruiser video went viral after it captured the attention of Ohioans for Concealed Carry, which posted the video online.
The police department’s internal affairs division launched an investigation, examining Harless’ behavior during the June 8th arrest and two unrelated traffic stops, each captured on a police cruiser dash camera.
In the June 8 stop, he was accused of violating the department’s rules and regulations for cooperation with the public, deportment and treatment of persons in custody. For that, he faced being suspended or fired.
Harless was placed on medical leave and other officers donated their sick days to him when his paid sick-leave time ran out.
The union had asked for an extension for the disciplinary hearing due to Harless being diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder.
“Obviously, it’s an unfortunate set of circumstances that transpired,” Adams said. “We feel that due to the fact that (Harless) has PTSD, that nobody realized it for eight-plus years, for it to come to light the way it did ... this is not a way we wanted this to play out. PTSD is obviously a disease.”
Adams said that the incident that sparked the disease occurred in 2003 when a suspect nearly bit off Harless’ finger while trying to get the officer’s gun.
“Here’s a guy who was in a life-and-death situation,” Adams said, adding that since the June 8 incident came to light, Harless has been diagnosed several times with PTSD.
“Most people that have a bad day on their job can go home, put their legs up and relax,” Adams said. “We can go home from our jobs in a body bag or with a serious physical injury from the hospital.”
He noted the recent incident in which Officer Tim Marks was brutally attacked by a suspect.
“It affects people in different ways. Unfortunately, (Harless) had PTSD, and it wasn’t realized for eight years. Unfortunately, he was fired, and we will address that situation at a later time.”
An arbitrator would make a final decision in an appeal, Adams said.
http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x638339306/Daniel-Harless-fired-from-Canton-police-force
http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x638339306/Daniel-Harless-fired-from-Canton-police-force
PTSD seems to be the common excuse these days.
They could make him a dispatcher (no weapon) if he truly suffers from PTSD. he should not be using a weapon, as he seems to be violent. He also gives other PTSD sufferers a bad name, as most of them are not violent.
Looks like Daniel Harless may be getting his job back. http://m.cantonrep.com/repository/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=LUTXfXe9&full=true#display
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-20-12, 20:44
Looks like Daniel Harless may be getting his job back. http://m.cantonrep.com/repository/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=LUTXfXe9&full=true#display
“What needs to be understood is (there’s) no rule that says an officer (cannot) or should not make threats,” he said. “It’s not nice for a police officer to threaten to shoot somebody, (but) sometimes it’s ultimately the only thing that prevents you from doing it.”
-Michael Piotrowski, an attorney with the Fraternal Order of Police of Ohio, has represented Harless in the case.
Without comment.
Without comment.
I'm disgusted.
Color of Law violations would be appropriate at a minimum: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/federal-statutes and http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/color_of_law
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