View Full Version : Amy Winehouse Dead At 27...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/23/amy-winehouse-dead-singer_n_907753.html#s314557&title=Rehab
Yep, another person who was lucky enough to have the OPTION to be way ahead of the game and enjoy advantages others only dream of but was still so fundamentally flawed as a human being she still managed to **** it all up and in the end she crashed and burned and sunk her own ship.
Too bad she didn't just give all her money to somebody who could have really done something with it and then just jump off of a really tall building while incredibly high. It would have been a much more successful outcome.
Moose-Knuckle
07-23-11, 17:18
Oh gawd, not another young talented musician. . .DAMN this disease! :suicide2:
I have no clue who the hell this is. Guess it is time for google
Guess she should have gone to rehab after all. Oh and she is the newest inductee into "The 27 Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club)"
Iraq Ninja
07-23-11, 18:04
I have no clue who the hell this is. Guess it is time for google
Don't bother. She is not worth the sweat off your balls...
Moose-Knuckle
07-23-11, 18:17
Guess she should have gone to rehab after all. Oh and she is the newest inductee into "The 27 Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club)"
This is what I was referring to by my first sarcastic post.
theblackknight
07-23-11, 18:45
If you like that style of music(I do), Adelle dose it way better.
I like her but she was clueless with a ****ing eyeliner pencil, and I have no sympathy for drugies.
Wasn't really into her but she was a very pretty (before she started on that shit) and talented (in some people minds) entertainer.
Choices, responsibility, blah, blah, etc. I still don't get any kind of smug satisfaction seeing a beautiful young woman whither and die, celebrity or not.
Hard drugs suck.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-23-11, 19:47
I just got banned from Calguns.net for the following post:
Is it too late for that rehab now?
Alpha Sierra
07-23-11, 20:02
Don't bother. She is not worth the sweat off your balls...
+1
Her daddy wasted the shot
Belmont31R
07-23-11, 20:16
Wasn't really into her but she was a very pretty (before she started on that shit) and talented (in some people minds) entertainer.
Choices, responsibility, blah, blah, etc. I still don't get any kind of smug satisfaction seeing a beautiful young woman whither and die, celebrity or not.
Hard drugs suck.
I think its that fame and fortune tend to magnify personalities, and those inclined to be certain things take it to extremes. Theres hundreds of singers, actors, ect out there. Its usually only a few at any given time. If someone has the personality of a shitbird druggie that just means instead of stealing and begging for their drug money and wearing tattered clothes they drive exotic cars and have all the money they need for their drugs.
There are plenty of celebrity personalities out there who use their money to do good things and live private lives. Plenty of people who don't use their fame to constantly stay in the light be it good or bad.
Every profession has their 10% of shitbags.
variablebinary
07-23-11, 20:37
That's too bad. She had a lot of potential.
She was actually a well put together Jewish girl prior to letting addiction kick her down the steps.
http://profesorbaker.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/amy_winehouse_antes_y_despues.jpg
That's too bad. She had a lot of potential.
She was actually a well put together Jewish girl prior to letting addiction kick her down the steps.
http://profesorbaker.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/amy_winehouse_antes_y_despues.jpg
Wow never saw pictures of her before she was all skinny and strung out, thanks.
randyman_ar
07-23-11, 21:23
You know I had seen her in the news and was disgusted at what I saw. Caught her on the radio one day and was amazed at what I heard. Sad really, she had a great voice and style..... just my 2 cents.
I just got banned from Calguns.net for the following post:
Is it too late for that rehab now?
Bwahaha:lol:
I still don't get any kind of smug satisfaction seeing a beautiful young woman whither and die, celebrity or not.
Neither do I, but I also don't cry for people who have all or most of the cards and still manage to **** up the game. I'd rather save my sympathy for somebody who never had a chance and still gave it their honest best shot.
That's too bad. She had a lot of potential.
She was actually a well put together Jewish girl prior to letting addiction kick her down the steps.
http://profesorbaker.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/amy_winehouse_antes_y_despues.jpg
Yep, combine that with singing talent and she could have easily had a very good life. Oh well.
I just got banned from Calguns.net for the following post:
Is it too late for that rehab now?
Man, they have no sense of humor! :lol:
What is really killing me with this crap is all the sentiments that the drugs are to blame. Bullshit.
Drugs killed Winehouse like guns killed Kennedy.
RogerinTPA
07-24-11, 08:09
Yawn....next please.
What is really killing me with this crap is all the sentiments that the drugs are to blame. Bullshit.
Drugs killed Winehouse like guns killed Kennedy.
Couldn't agree more. Also the BS about addiction being a disease, it's a life style choice just like being obese. Yeah it's hard to stop doing something that brings you pleasure, but it's called work and some people are just too ****ing lazy to do any.
montanadave
07-24-11, 09:22
Couldn't agree more. Also the BS about addiction being a disease, it's a life style choice just like being obese. Yeah it's hard to stop doing something that brings you pleasure, but it's called work and some people are just too ****ing lazy to do any.
As someone in recovery with a medical background and experience working in the drug/alcohol rehab area, I will only say you're out of your lane on this one.
Is addiction over-diagnosed and manipulated by some as a "get out of jail free" ploy when caught with their hand in the cookie jar? Undoubtedly. Are there unscrupulous people and institutions that seek to profit from those afflicted (or not)? Absolutely, greed is a strong motivator.
But to tell a genuine addict that his disease is bullshit and he just needs to bootstrap his way to sobriety denotes a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding addiction and its appropriate treatment.
Not looking to get into a cat-fight or tit-for-tat exchange. We obviously have a profound disagreement in this area and I know nothing of your experience. However, I do know my personal experience as well as my educational and professional qualifications in the field and couldn't disagree more with your previously expressed opinion.
parishioner
07-24-11, 11:37
If you want to call addiction a disease fine, but she consciously made the decision to try hard drugs knowing the possible consequences. She chose this fate and its difficult to have sympathy for people who make stupid choices.
variablebinary
07-24-11, 11:43
As someone in recovery with a medical background and experience working in the drug/alcohol rehab area, I will only say you're out of your lane on this one.
Is addiction over-diagnosed and manipulated by some as a "get out of jail free" ploy when caught with their hand in the cookie jar? Undoubtedly. Are there unscrupulous people and institutions that seek to profit from those afflicted (or not)? Absolutely, greed is a strong motivator.
But to tell a genuine addict that his disease is bullshit and he just needs to bootstrap his way to sobriety denotes a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding addiction and its appropriate treatment.
Not looking to get into a cat-fight or tit-for-tat exchange. We obviously have a profound disagreement in this area and I know nothing of your experience. However, I do know my personal experience as well as my educational and professional qualifications in the field and couldn't disagree more with your previously expressed opinion.
Bunk. I have more than a few dumb ass relatives that wrecked their lives with drink and drugs.
They did it to themselves. It's not like they were just walking to work and got bitten by a mosquito and got malaria.
Every single junkie and alcoholic does it to themselves on purpose. Play stupid game, win stupid prize. These people destroy themselves, their families and the innocent for selfish, self inflicted stupidity.
Don't tell me kids dying of polio in Africa is the same as someone that shoots up.
Suwannee Tim
07-24-11, 11:49
I just got banned from Calguns.net for the following post:
Is it too late for that rehab now?
We still love you Low.
As someone in recovery with a medical background and experience working in the drug/alcohol rehab area, I will only say you're out of your lane on this one.
Is addiction over-diagnosed and manipulated by some as a "get out of jail free" ploy when caught with their hand in the cookie jar? Undoubtedly. Are there unscrupulous people and institutions that seek to profit from those afflicted (or not)? Absolutely, greed is a strong motivator.
But to tell a genuine addict that his disease is bullshit and he just needs to bootstrap his way to sobriety denotes a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding addiction and its appropriate treatment.
Not looking to get into a cat-fight or tit-for-tat exchange. We obviously have a profound disagreement in this area and I know nothing of your experience. However, I do know my personal experience as well as my educational and professional qualifications in the field and couldn't disagree more with your previously expressed opinion.
You miss the point, and the problem with the kumbayah approach to mental health issues over the last two decades.
By calling it an "illness" you remove the blame from the "victim" (which, I'm well aware, is entirely the point). Not to mention you lump it in with actual diseases like cancer. Less than two months ago I watched someone die, too young, from cancer. IMO every ****wad that thinks his "addiction" is the same thing can go piss up a rope.
Calling addiction an illness is one more symptom of the blameless society we live in now, and IMO it leads to MORE addiction because it is one more place where we let people know prior to their shitty decisions that there will be no consequences and they always have a safety net.
I am of the opinion that every cent spent on addiction recovery and AIDS research is misspent and should be directed to diseases like cancer which strike people out of no where through no fault of their own (smokers notwithstanding). These are both conditions that are ENTIRELY within the power and control of the so-called "victim" to avoid, and IMO they can wallow in their misery
Suwannee Tim
07-24-11, 12:08
Having overcome nicotine I have first hand experience with addiction. Addiction is universally regarded by the experts, the M.D.s and researchers as a disease. Having a close relative with a serious mental illness has given me first hand experience with that issue as well. To assert that addiction and mental illness are not diseases is to display vast ignorance. Such a display of opinionated ignorance with respect to ARs would bring swift and stinging rebukes on this very forum. I don't disagree that the first uses of an addictive substance are voluntary and stupid. In my case, I was a teenager which I regard as a pretty good excuse for stupidity. The addiction, once established is no longer voluntary. With respect to medical support for addiction recovery, I doubt I would have been able to overcome my nicotine addiction without such support.
variablebinary
07-24-11, 12:17
Having overcome a nicotine I have first hand experience with addiction. Addiction is universally regarded by the experts, the M.D.s and researchers as a disease. Having a close relative with a serious mental illness has given me first hand experience with that issue as well. To assert that addiction and mental illness are not diseases is to display vast ignorance. Such a display of opinionated ignorance with respect to ARs would bring swift and stinging rebukes on this very forum.
Just like pedophilia, right...
Gutshot John
07-24-11, 12:18
Having overcome a nicotine I have first hand experience with addiction. Addiction is universally regarded by the experts, the M.D.s and researchers as a disease. Having a close relative with a serious mental illness has given me first hand experience with that issue as well. To assert that addiction and mental illness are not diseases is to display vast ignorance. Such a display of opinionated ignorance with respect to ARs would bring swift and stinging rebukes on this very forum.
Exactly.
Just because it's a disease doesn't mean anyone is held blameless. Quite the contrary treatment of the disease includes taking responsibility for one's actions.
Is rehab or treatment or addiction an overused excuse? Sure is and it pisses me off that the actions of people like Anthony Weiner cheapen the very real hardships that addicts fail.
For myself I can't ****ing stand junkies but addiction is clearly a disease by any definition of the word and honestly having seen people die on the street with needles in their arms, and having watched my mother consumed by cancer...I'd rather face the latter.
Gutshot John
07-24-11, 12:22
Just like pedophilia, right...
No it's not like pedophilia. That comparison is completely asinine.
One harms an innocent life and is a criminal act. While it may be a mental disorder, it doesn't change the fact that it's victimizing another. If you commit a crime you should pay for that crime and pedophiles shouldn't ever see the light of day. Pedophiles will never be cured, addiction however can be, even though it's exceedingly difficult. Betty Ford, Robert Downey Jr. there are lots of addicts that face their disease and come through the wilderness...but it takes years. Expecting someone to be cured within a month of rehab is idiotic.
Add to that addiction in and of itself only victimizes the addict. This doesn't excuse the crimes of theft and other things an addict may do to feed their addiction and they should pay for their crimes, but let's avoid the reductio ad absurdum.
I don't give a rip about Amy Winehouse, darwin works and all that but lets not cheapen what a lot of people have to deal with everyday and who own up to their problems.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-24-11, 12:30
LIked her music as a disrtaction from all the non-sense that is coming out now. Her negatives will fade and only her music will be left for her to judged by in the long term.
Suwannee Tim
07-24-11, 12:34
Just like pedophilia, right...
The DSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders) defines addiction as a disease but defines pedophilia as a disorder.
Amy Winehouse was addicted and mentally ill and was pitiful. And if you don't pity her you are hard-hearted.
parishioner
07-24-11, 12:46
I do believe addiction is a disease however there are a certain behaviors that predispose one to disease. These are modifiable risk factors like alcohol/drug use, smoking, inactivity, poor diet, sexual promiscuity. These are associated with increased risk of disease and they are well within our control unlike age, gender, family history, and ethnicity. They are known and most people are aware of them. When someone makes a decision to ignore these its hardly a shock when a disease is acquired nor do I pity them.
Oh well, less oxygen being wasted.
Suwannee Tim
07-24-11, 13:01
Never mind.
Couldn't agree more. Also the BS about addiction being a disease, it's a life style choice just like being obese. Yeah it's hard to stop doing something that brings you pleasure, but it's called work and some people are just too ****ing lazy to do any.
While it's not a "disease" (because you can't catch it) it's also not something quite as simple as a choice. For example the American Indian and Hawaiians don't have the same cultural tolerances for alcohol that Europeans have developed over the centuries so they can't make that "choice" as easily as we do.
Even among those with European backgrounds there seem to be those who can drink recreationally with zero negative impact on their lives, and even some who apparently can do the same thing with certain narcotics (at least for a period of time). But there are also those from similar backgrounds who can't put two or more beers in them without ****ing up their own lives and those of everyone around them.
So Rob, has a point. Had it not been drugs, Amy probably would have found some new way to **** up her life.
LIked her music as a disrtaction from all the non-sense that is coming out now. Her negatives will fade and only her music will be left for her to judged by in the long term.
That's a nice way to look at the whole picture.
Suwannee Tim
07-24-11, 13:19
Addiction and mental illness are easiest to understand when you have no knowledge and no experience.
And if you don't pity her you are hard-hearted.
Well......YEAH! Given the alternative...soft-heartedness...
Additionally: Because being, as a population, soft-hearted since the 60s has been so very, very BENEFICIAL to us as a society....:rolleyes:
I'll save that for things like puppies and other, worthy recipients, and will continue to remain resolute and unashamed in my unwillingness to make excuses for those who despise reality so much that they feel the need to wallow in things that oh, right, still don't change it, and are too stupid to realize that.
There's a BIG difference in somebody that has recovery thrust upon them by court order, then flings themselves headlong back into what they were ordered to recover from, and somebody that hits bottom or otherwise gets that cosmic kick to the head that compels them to seek recovery.
You may continue to look down on whomever it is you wish for the grave sin of being hard-hearted toward the worthless. You will not be allowed to publicly berate them here. Take your imaginary moral superiority and stick it in the darkest part of your lily-white rear end.
BREAK
All: Speak as you will on the differences between disease/disorder, but keep it to their respective psychobabble witch-doctor technical merits and spare us the soapbox posturing as to who does or does not fit into our ideal temperamental molds.
theblackknight
07-24-11, 14:17
The DSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders) defines addiction as a disease but defines pedophilia as a disorder.
Amy Winehouse was addicted and mentally ill and was pitiful. And if you don't pity her you are hard-hearted.
The rest of use arnt hard, your just soft.
theblackknight
07-24-11, 14:18
You miss the point, and the problem with the kumbayah approach to mental health issues over the last two decades.
By calling it an "illness" you remove the blame from the "victim" (which, I'm well aware, is entirely the point). Not to mention you lump it in with actual diseases like cancer. Less than two months ago I watched someone die, too young, from cancer. IMO every ****wad that thinks his "addiction" is the same thing can go piss up a rope.
Calling addiction an illness is one more symptom of the blameless society we live in now, and IMO it leads to MORE addiction because it is one more place where we let people know prior to their shitty decisions that there will be no consequences and they always have a safety net.
I am of the opinion that every cent spent on addiction recovery and AIDS research is misspent and should be directed to diseases like cancer which strike people out of no where through no fault of their own (smokers notwithstanding). These are both conditions that are ENTIRELY within the power and control of the so-called "victim" to avoid, and IMO they can wallow in their misery
THIS POST RULES ALL
The rest of use arnt hard, your just soft.
The knife cuts BOTH ways.
Leave the perceptions of the moral character of M4C members off the screen.
GermanSynergy
07-24-11, 14:26
She used to be a pretty girl, but a life of drugs/alcohol/excess ruined her. I'm sure there's a lesson here.
variablebinary
07-24-11, 14:27
The DSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders) defines addiction as a disease but defines pedophilia as a disorder.
Amy Winehouse was addicted and mentally ill and was pitiful. And if you don't pity her you are hard-hearted.
I'll save my sympathy for children with leukemia. You know, people who've done zero wrong and have a real disease. People who had no choice and are victims, but not by self inflicted circumstance and stupidity.
Many people with artistic ability kill themselves with drugs. It's a real shame and waste of a life, but sympathy, they deserve none.
Many people with artistic ability kill themselves with drugs. It's a real shame and waste of a life, but sympathy, they deserve none.
Agreed in full, I just never understood the internet equivalent of high-fiving and cracking beers that inevitably goes down when something like this is posted.
ETA: This isn't aimed at anyone in particular.
woodandsteel
07-24-11, 14:50
She used to be a pretty girl, but a life of drugs/alcohol/excess ruined her. I'm sure there's a lesson here.
When I hear about celebrities and other people self destructing like this, I think of Robert De Niro in the movie A Bronx Tale, when he says; "The saddest thing in life is wasted talent".
She used to be a pretty girl, but a life of drugs/alcohol/excess ruined her. I'm sure there's a lesson here.
And sadly MOST of those who need the lesson will miss it because they will be too focused on the "addiction is a disease" message. They will see it as something they are powerless to do anything about so it will become something they are far more likely to experience than avoid.
IMO Rob pretty much nailed it.
Suwannee Tim
07-24-11, 15:46
Well......YEAH! Given the alternative...soft-heartedness......
I think there is a middle ground namely compassion.
And sadly MOST of those who need the lesson will miss it because they will be too focused on the "addiction is a disease" message. They will see it as something they are powerless to do anything about so it will become something they are far more likely to experience than avoid......
It is true in many cases that addicts believe they are powerless over their addiction when they are not. I was not powerless over my nicotine addiction for example. It is also true that some addicts are in fact powerless over their addiction, Robert Downey Jr. being an example. It is true that some addicts have no interest in recovery. Addiction is not a simple phenomenon.
....You may continue to look down on whomever it is you wish for the grave sin of being hard-hearted toward the worthless......
Generally I don't look down on people I barely know which includes all members of this forum. I'm trying to present a different perspective, a minority view for sure. I don't think a hard-hearted person is necessarily a bad person nor do I think a soft-hearted person is necessarily a good person. I do think compassion is a good thing though.
Should have read the whole thread. My point has already been made by others.
It is true in many cases that addicts believe they are powerless over their addiction when they are not. I was not powerless over my nicotine addiction for example. It is also true that some addicts are in fact powerless over their addiction, Robert Downey Jr. being an example. It is true that some addicts have no interest in recovery. Addiction is not a simple phenomenon.
But my point was "THIS CAN HAPPEN TO YOU."
Just because Celebrity XYZ seems to be able to do Coke/Heroin/Meth without consequence or ill effect doesn't mean it won't destroy YOUR LIFE and kill you in quick succession.
I'm sure there really is something genetic in my background that makes Yellow butter cake with milk chocolate frosting a really BAD idea for me and that is why I can't use it as recreationally as some other folks without paying some really high prices. Some people are just blessed with a magic metabolism, others not so much.
So for that reason I have to muster up some will power and personal courage and make a CHOICE to leave it on the damn shelf at the supermarket despite my "addiction/disease." Because if I don't make that choice early on, sooner or later I won't have the capacity to make the choice.
While it's not a "disease" (because you can't catch it) it's also not something quite as simple as a choice.
I get what you're saying, some things are genetic.
My dad was a alcoholic/coke fein, and both sides of my family have history of drug abusers.
I understand all the ideas behind behavior modification, intrusive though etc.
I've got a ****ed up brain myself with all kinds of shit including PTSD and a number of other stress related disorders I've been diagnosed with and through a shit load of testing not just a single visit to the shrink.
Hell I can't dream with out it being ****ed up and keeping me up the rest of the night because I know if I go back to sleep I'll have the same shit happen so I've changed my sleeping pattern to the day since I know I sleep lighter during the day and I'm less likely to dream.
How do I deal with it since medication and therapist did jack shit but put me in to a comatose state a majority of the day?
Simple I learned my triggers and when I have something as simple as an intrusive thoughts I simply do simple stuff such as math etc to block it out or lessen it's impact on my day.
End of the day there's really no excuse to shoot up heroin, yes it can be a hell of a challenge but doing drugs still requires more action from the user to get high than it does not to.
And yeah they had me on all kinds of shit that caused me to feel weak and depressed and all around shitty when I went off it, hell I gained over 100lbs when I quit taking the medications and came down hard as hell. But I knew the alternative was worst and I've gotten back to my weight over 2 years of working my ass off and not allowing my mind - mind **** me. I'm in full control of it until they day they lock me up for being batshit crazy, that day I'll let it go hehe :D
Couldn't agree more. Also the BS about addiction being a disease, it's a life style choice just like being obese. Yeah it's hard to stop doing something that brings you pleasure, but it's called work and some people are just too ****ing lazy to do any.
Could not agree more. The word addiction is used for everything these days. Drugs are more like a crutch that people need, then they hide behind "addiction" so they dont have to stop...
She used to be a pretty girl, but a life of drugs/alcohol/excess ruined her. I'm sure there's a lesson here.
A lesson that was taught by many musicians & actors that has benn ignored over and over again!
Hell I can't dream with out it being ****ed up and keeping me up the rest of the night because I know if I go back to sleep I'll have the same shit happen so I've changed my sleeping pattern to the day since I know I sleep lighter during the day and I'm less likely to dream.
This is rather unfortunate. I have a similar issue, but not quite as bad. Still a good night's sleep is almost impossible now days.
I learned my triggers and when I have something as simple as an intrusive thoughts I simply do simple stuff such as math etc to block it out or lessen it's impact on my day.
Fascinating.
DSM IV is a political manifesto and little else.
Next time some pseudo-mental health care "professional" quotes it, I will ****ing strangle a kitten.
I have been physically addicted to painkillers and beat them. Ditto to mental issues.
Have worked in a mental health role and realize how even the most institutionally insane benefit from their behaviors.
Am not impressed with the pant-wringing types who excuse ANY behavior. The correct approach, in nearly every case is to acknowledge that everyone faces monsters, but to be heartless in tolerating bad behavior. Toleration is the gateway to enabling and co-dependency.
BTW - there is no such thing as a "good person". That is namby-pamby bullshit only foisted by pussies. We all of us are "bad people" inside and only behave well through personal strength and fortitude.
THIS is what should be celebrated.
I couldn't give a shit about Amy Whorehouse. She failed to conquer her demons, and did so in a high vis manner, so **** her.
This is rather unfortunate. I have a similar issue, but not quite as bad. Still a good night's sleep is almost impossible now days.
Fascinating.
Not saying it's perfect, but I'm a functional person - better than me simply being suppressed by medication. Not saying everyone should stop taking meds either :D Some people need em just like some people need their stomach stapled to lose weight. I've noticed I'm also a hell of a lot less violent with out the medication. I might be quick to get in to a shouting match, but I'm far less likely to make it physical (haven't been in a physical altercation since I've been with out meds - a long time). Probably because I don't suppress shit as much until I blow up.
But in the end that's me - and I'm a bit crazy so I'm probably a bit different than most :D
I don't have all the answers to this and don't pretend to. I don't know if I have any answers but I do know this-
I am glad this tragedy wasn't visited on me or mine
Suwannee Tim
07-25-11, 08:24
......I am glad this tragedy wasn't visited on me or mine
A well respected co-worker recently lost his son to a deadly combination of alcohol and diabetes. Charlie is a good man and raised his children right, his son was a good kid but the alcohol tore his ass up. My wife's brother drank himself to death. He was an asshole and deserved what he got by my wife didn't deserve it. Same with my brother who drank himself into a devastating stroke. He deserved what he got but my mother didn't.
A well respected co-worker recently lost his son to a deadly combination of alcohol and diabetes. Charlie is a good man and raised his children right, his son was a good kid but the alcohol tore his ass up.
This would seem to be a case of evidence not supporting the claim, would it not?
This would seem to be a case of evidence not supporting the claim, would it not?
You'd be shocked at how independent of parenting both addiction and criminality are.
BTW, the same root causes can be attributed to both. The same self-centered, "I'm going to do 'x' because I'm the center of the universe" thinking is involved.
The thing that offends me the most about the addiction as a disease, is that it presupposes that human beings are just animals, powerless before their urges and instincts. This is an extremely dangerous point of view, imo, as the next step is to just take a shit in public and rape the next good looking woman you see.
If you believe you cannot exercize will, then you are right.
Sucks to see someone's life end at such a young age.
This would seem to be a case of evidence not supporting the claim, would it not?
i don't think it's fair to throw Charlie under the bus so fast...I think we all know good families / parents who had that one sheep that strayed while the other siblings stayed on the paths their parents tried to stear them.
montanadave
07-25-11, 10:39
The amount of misinformation, gross generalization, and uninformed bullshit with respect to addiction being bandied about in this thread is both staggering and demoralizing.
Fortunately for those struggling with alcohol and drug addiction, there is help available.
I have seen people die because they listened to people espousing some of the misguided opinions which have been expressed here rather than reach out for help. And that's a shame.
Something I don't see mentioned anywhere in the news is the fact that her drug use made her essentially a criminal. I don't particularly care what some nameless crackhead criminal does to him/herself, so why is this one any different because she sang some songs people like to hear? I don't see anybody crying over that street junkie. The only difference is the street junkie has to be a little more criminal to support their habit.
I understand my statement is a bit obtuse, but I'm sure everyone gets the point...
I have seen people die because they listened to people espousing some of the misguided opinions which have been expressed here rather than reach out for help. And that's a shame.
I had a friend die recently from an OD of oxycodone, he put his faith in the 12 step program and handed all responsibility to "God" and accepted that he had no control over his "disease". I guess that's good for him since he gets to spend eternity in heaven and it wasn't suicide since it was his "disease" that caused his death not his own willful actions. Hey that just might be a loop hole to heaven quicker :lol: Thankfully he didn't have a family to support.
From watching people the majority that I know who have actually quit actually due it by using freewill and wanting a better life, the ones who enter the programs usually relapse for the rest of their lives or just OD and die. I've known heroin addicts who had no veins left who just have made the choice that if they don't quit they'll die and have been free for year. And people who loved coke and got to the point of smoking crack who are clean now. I honestly I can't say I know a single person who is drug free for more than 3 years using a program other than just quitting.
But hey I'm sure they work for some.
ETA:
I've sat in on many AA meetings - it's a bunch of grown people feeling sorry for themselves and waiting pity from their peers and simply reassuring each other that they're good people and what they're doing isn't them it's the drugs... Wake up call they are their actions drugs or no drugs the idea that the way to behave while ****ed up isn't a reflection on them is naive childish bullshit.
And for the kicker they have no problem ****ing up the lives of those around them with there selfish BS attitudes because it ain't them - it's the drugs duh. The ones who can't quit are simply spoiled and have zero empathy for the shit they put others through.
This would seem to be a case of evidence not supporting the claim, would it not?
I don't know, my father was a an abusive woman hitting asshole. He's who I didn't want to be growing up so I guess he was my sinking ship warning :D So maybe he did raise me right hehe by showing me what it looks like if you **** up at being a decent person :lol:
I have seen people die because they listened to people espousing some of the misguided opinions which have been expressed here rather than reach out for help. And that's a shame.
They were probably gonna die anyway.
I've seen people save themselves because they were able to figure out things like personal responsibility and recognizing that their genetic predisposition might be different from others so there is simply some shit they just can't do... at all...ever.
For every person who is saved by some "You have a disease" program, there is someone who is saved by the tao of "square your own shit away and sort yourself out asshole."
It just depends upon what kind of person you are dealing with. I will grant you that most problem substance abusers tend to be the weak willed type who need a lot of hand holding and reassurance that it isn't really their fault even though it completely is their fault.
Back to Amy Winehouse....
Sounds like she was just another celebrity that had something good going until she got hooked on drugs and alcohol and paid the price for it. It didn't look like she had some issue where she needed the shit for pain, or whatever. Nobody held a gun to her head and forced her to do it. She most likley did it because she could and got hooked. Kinda hard to feel sorry for her. Just like I wouldn't or don't feel sorry for any other person that tries drugs just for kicks then gets hooked and abuses them. With all the info out there about the dangers of drugs, people who do it just to "feel good" and then abuse them won't get any sympathy from me.
Now if they can get clean and live a sober life, good for them. But I don't lose sleep over stories like hers.
It didn't look like she had some issue where she needed the shit for pain, or whatever.
How do we know what was in her background that caused "pain" that she was self medicating for?
Bunch of people who collectively know very little about mental health and substance abuse/dependency issues acting like having a little compassion requires work on their part or makes you weak. Just the opposite, IMO.
How do we know what was in her background that caused "pain" that she was self medicating for?
Bunch of people who collectively know very little about mental health and substance abuse/dependency issues acting like having a little compassion requires work on their part or makes you weak. Just the opposite, IMO.
Broad brush there, sir.
I've worked in the field; long enough anyway, to know that compassion and motivation are two different things.
Even the uninformed in this thread grasp upon the apparently accurate viewpoint that compassion enables bad behavior and motivation attenuates it.
When I was new and shiny I saw both types of treatment professionals. I also saw that the "I'm an embittered bastard who gets in your face and lays the blame for your 'disease' on you, the addicts' doorstep, and now what the **** are you going to DO about it" were much, much more effective at actually getting long-term results.
Crying about how tragic it is gets zero results in treatment, btw.
Actually, independent of methodology, aging is the best treatment there is. Very few serious addicts ever get cured; most of the serious ones just grow out of it, if they survive long enough. A few meet a turning point and take the road out by bootstrapping.
There are some successful 12 steppers too. But again, they tend to be long term addicts who are getting older when it happens. Lots of so-called "successful" 12-steppers merely exchange one addiction for another and call it good.
Let me add, too, that a large proportion of mental health/addiction treatment "professionals" are leeches, who are milking an extremely corrupt system.
Anytime one talks about that profession, my stomach boils in anger at the large amount of shitheels and politically motivated hacks that tend to have inordinate influence within it.
I don't know, my father was a an abusive woman hitting asshole. He's who I didn't want to be growing up so I guess he was my sinking ship warning :D So maybe he did raise me right hehe by showing me what it looks like if you **** up at being a decent person :lol:
I grew up in the same household. When he was sober, I had a father. He was also a "functional alcoholic" he went to work every day and did his job, albeit a short temper. He died the day after I turned 19 from liver failure.
An interesting discussion on the radio today. The DJ's and guest opined that Winehouse is not a true member of the "27 Club" as she really had no real talent beyond her voice, she was not a song writer, or a virtuoso performer of an instrument, neither did she have an extensive catalog of work to be remembered for. Winehouse was never really renowned for her work and catalog. Instead she was infamous for her tragic public persona. In ten, twenty years no one will remember her or her work, unlike the other members of the "27 Club" who left behind legacies.
Broad brush there, sir.
When I used words like bunch and collectively that's a given as I was talking generally about the tone of the thread. My opinion remains that many of the participants in this thread do not know what they are talking about when it comes to mental health and substance abuse issues. Even your purportedly qualified opinion flies in the face of conventional published thought on the matter, leaving the burden of proof in your lap.
Let me add, too, that a large proportion of mental health/addiction treatment "professionals" are leeches, who are milking an extremely corrupt system.
That's most state and federal employees in a nutshell.
How do we know what was in her background that caused "pain" that she was self medicating for?
Bunch of people who collectively know very little about mental health and substance abuse/dependency issues acting like having a little compassion requires work on their part or makes you weak. Just the opposite, IMO.
For most people, life is hard. Some members on this forum have been through absolutely the worst things that can possibly happen to you, I've been through some pretty "wish I could have just skipped that part" shit myself.
The difference is we don't have millions of dollars and we don't need to **** ourselves up on drugs to manage our lives. Typically most of us go to work on Monday. This is probably why we don't have the time nor the inclination to weep for millionaire celebrities who can't hack their own situation and manage to sink their own ship in the process.
Sure as shit celebrities ain't crying for us and we aren't asking them to. If you want to be all compassionate, go ahead. Nobody is stopping you. Watch Oprah for all I care.
When I used words like bunch and collectively that's a given as I was talking generally about the tone of the thread. My opinion remains that many of the participants in this thread do not know what they are talking about when it comes to mental health and substance abuse issues. Even your purportedly qualified opinion flies in the face of conventional published thought on the matter, leaving the burden of proof in your lap.
While we are on the subject, I think a LOT of psychiatrists (the people who offer those qualified opinions and create programs) are ****ing nuts themselves. Often they are like the ATF acting like "experts" on firearms and second amendment issues.
I'm almost certain you will disagree but there we are.
For most people, life is hard. Some members on this forum have been through absolutely the worst things that can possibly happen to you, I've been through some pretty "wish I could have just skipped that part" shit myself.
The difference is we don't have millions of dollars and we don't need to **** ourselves up on drugs to manage our lives. Typically most of us go to work on Monday. This is probably why we don't have the time nor the inclination to weep for millionaire celebrities who can't hack their own situation and manage to sink their own ship in the process.
Sure as shit celebrities ain't crying for us and we aren't asking them to. If you want to be all compassionate, go ahead. Nobody is stopping you. Watch Oprah for all I care.
I think the oddity is that the only ones glamorizing and romanticizing drug abuse are the celebutards themselves. Besides, you know you are well off when you have the disposable income for booger sugar. Oh bummer, she died, what did she think was going to happen?
If you want to be all compassionate, go ahead.
Before I noticed several people writing multiple paragraphs about how much they didn't give a shit I was happy to say "gee that's too bad" and drive on. It's not me that's being all this or that.
While we are on the subject, I think a LOT of psychiatrists (the people who offer those qualified opinions and create programs) are ****ing nuts themselves.
On other scientific issues you seem to reliably side with the conventional view. I think there might be some unresolved issues here, LOL.
On other scientific issues you seem to reliably side with the conventional view. I think there might be some unresolved issues here, LOL.
Using objective analysis I have seen a disproportionate case of people in the field who are actually and honestly Full On Fruit Loops to use a clinical term. This made an impression on me because it shocked the shit out of me each and every time because for a long time I always made the assumption that these "should be" the "most mentally stable" people I would encounter.
And it wasn't a case of one or two, it was a case of a large percentage (less than 50% of course) of all the psychiatrists I knew. This of course led me to wonder how many of the others were simply undetected crazy people who the rest of us were still assuming were very mentally stable.
It is absolutely terrifying to listen to a well educated person begin to discuss subjects that you'd expect to come from the mouth of Charlie Manson as if they were in fact...real. I don't even want to get into the whole "Gee...you are helping other people be normal huh?" aspect of this.
Now in fairness this could be completely localized to the few places where I have encountered them, but I thing it is more accurate as a general sampling. And perhaps I am biased by my experiences and "could" be projecting them onto the rest of the people in the field, but my "they are simply still undetected" scenario is as plausible.
Now certainly not "everyone" in the mental health field is insane, just seems that a disproportionately unacceptable number are.
My hypothesis is a lot of truly damaged (****ed up) people enter this field to attempt to understand themselves and in some cases help themselves. One one hand this sounds noble, but the reality is they seem to remain kinda ****ed up and then start helping "other people."
When I used words like bunch and collectively that's a given as I was talking generally about the tone of the thread. My opinion remains that many of the participants in this thread do not know what they are talking about when it comes to mental health and substance abuse issues. Even your purportedly qualified opinion flies in the face of conventional published thought on the matter, leaving the burden of proof in your lap.
That's most state and federal employees in a nutshell.
Mental health and psychology are subjects of great controversy even within themselves. There are tons of nutbags within the APA who would argue this same shit the same way everyone here is arguing it. You act like there is some set of guidelines for psychologists and therapists to follow which will cure all and do so in the most effective way. You are wrong.
Suwannee Tim
07-26-11, 15:27
While we are on the subject, I think a LOT of psychiatrists (the people who offer those qualified opinions and create programs) are ****ing nuts themselves.....
True but I don't know who else you would go to with a mental illness. A relative of mine went batshit crazy with schizoaffective disorder. After a month of ineffectual inpatient drug therapy the psychiatrist treated her with ECT brought her more or less back to Earth and some semblance of a normal life. Without the maintenance meds I think she would be right back in the Rubber Room in a big hurry.
I have sat through a number of AA meetings in support of a relative and I was not impressed. If you admit that you are "powerless" against your problem then personal responsibility is not an issue. Taking responsibility for your problems is a powerful, powerful tool. Relinquishing it makes you a powerless victim.
Mental health and psychology are subjects of great controversy even within themselves. There are tons of nutbags within the APA who would argue this same shit the same way everyone here is arguing it. You act like there is some set of guidelines for psychologists and therapists to follow which will cure all and do so in the most effective way. You are wrong.
I must have missed the "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps faggot" approach to substance abuse issues in my studies/experiences.
:rolleyes:
I am only talking about what I have been told by experts in the field (that whole "a qualified opinion is worth more than an unqualified opinion" thing that is supposed to be important on M4C) and what I have seen work for loved ones who have successfully been treated for substance abuse issues. Beyond that I couldn't help but comment about the perversity of a bunch of people writing multiple paragraphs about how they don't give a shit that some random celebrity is dead. Why the manifestos then? I'm gonna move on now.
I must have missed the "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps faggot" approach to substance abuse issues in my studies/experiences.
Found your problem.
:D
Let's not make the mistake of equating things like mental health studies with physics. Not so long ago homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder, now it is a lifestyle choice. Which "expert" was wrong?
Wasn't very long ago we were using electric shock and lobotomies to "cure" people. And there continue to be some very questionable methods.
Now when we get into the whole "addiction is a disease" we are now on the fringe of that group. You don't exactly go to universities to learn how to do 12 step programs. So you might have to just forgive some of us if we aren't really ready to buy into the entire program.
It has come a long way from everything being related to wanting to bang your own mother, but it still has a long way to go.
Suwannee Tim
07-26-11, 17:01
....... "a qualified opinion is worth more than an unqualified opinion" thing that is supposed to be important on M4C).....
:D:D:D
Moose-Knuckle
07-26-11, 17:46
An interesting discussion on the radio today. The DJ's and guest opined that Winehouse is not a true member of the "27 Club" as she really had no real talent beyond her voice, she was not a song writer, or a virtuoso performer of an instrument, neither did she have an extensive catalog of work to be remembered for. Winehouse was never really renowned for her work and catalog. Instead she was infamous for her tragic public persona. In ten, twenty years no one will remember her or her work, unlike the other members of the "27 Club" who left behind legacies.
Interesting perspective, but who knows? Maybe there is something to the Josie and the Pussycats conspiracy after all. . . :ph34r:
Now sit back and wait for South Park to cameo her. I know, I know too soon. :eek:
montanadave
07-26-11, 17:59
Interesting perspective, but who knows? Maybe there is something to the Josie and the Pussycats conspiracy after all. . . :ph34r:
Now sit back and wait for South Park to cameo her. I know, I know too soon. :eek:
A word from our sponsor:
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Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
A well respected co-worker recently lost his son to a deadly combination of alcohol and diabetes. Charlie is a good man and raised his children right, his son was a good kid but the alcohol tore his ass up. This would seem to be a case of evidence not supporting the claim, would it not?
Not necessarily. Some kids are just bad seed and no matter what you do they are gonna turn out bad. Others, despite all of the things their parents did right, take one wrong turn and its all down hill from there.
Not necessarily. Some kids are just bad seed and no matter what you do they are gonna turn out bad. Others, despite all of the things their parents did right, take one wrong turn and its all down hill from there.
I've seen it, I've even seen the reverse where a kid somehow emerges normal from a loser family. Usually not the case though.
Magic_Salad0892
07-28-11, 13:14
I have pity when a young person dies because they made a mistake once, and it ****ed them in the end. Think James Dean, Ryan Dunn, and a friend I had in high school who waited until his next check to get his alignment in his car fixed, and it ended up driving him off a bridge because he lost control of the steering wheel.
But when somebody ****s up... and continues doing it to themselves, and knows it can only end one way... and keeps doing it... no sympathy.
I've been on drugs (though they were psychedelic drugs, like LSD, and ex) and know how ****ed up they can be. There's a reason I quit that shit real quick.
Thankfully I never got herpes.
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