View Full Version : Why Not a 1911 or Revolver over 15 round semi-auto.
AuProspector
07-27-11, 13:12
I've been struggling with this for years..... Why not a 1911/Revolver vs a 15 round semi-auto for CCW use?
We carried 6 shot revolvers (2) when I was on the PD (now retired). I wanted to carry a 1911 back then but it was unauthorized. Now we have the 15+ round semi-auto. I like the newer guns but I'm still thinking the 1911 is the way to go, but then I wonder if this is not being practical.
I know that shot placement and training is everything but I'd like to get your thoughts on this subject. What do you use? Why?
Thank you.
Littlelebowski
07-27-11, 13:14
Because a modern semi auto has less moving parts, weighs less with more ammo, is just as accurate, is far more reliable on top of being durable, requires far less maintenance, and the parts are drop in. Not to mention being far more corrosion resistant.
TriumphRat675
07-27-11, 13:20
Because 15 > 6. And in the alternative, 15 > 7.
When dealing with marginally effective manstoppers like handgun bullets, more is more, less is less, and too much is not enough.
Littlelebowski
07-27-11, 13:26
Because 15 > 6. And in the alternative, 15 > 7.
When dealing with marginally effective manstoppers like handgun bullets, more is more, less is less, and too much is not enough.
Beautiful. Well said.
A different thought on the matter:
Just like your power drill is more capable than the drill your grandfather used, today’s criminal is not carrying the same weaponry that yesterday’s criminal did. Times change and we adapt or we fail.
Recent events in Norway are very much on my mind… :(
Nephrology
07-27-11, 13:36
A Glock 19 (which I use as sort of the prototypical Plastic Wonder nine) is simply a far more efficient firearm than a 1911 or a revolver.
It is more efficient by weight. It is more efficient by price. It is more efficient in its size and it is more efficient in its upkeep requirements. Parts are cheaper, ammunition is cheaper, and yet you sacrifice really nothing outside of "stopping power" (which is not something I buy into anyway) and class. Which, to be honest, I do kind of wish glocks had more of :D
You simply get, dollar for dollar and ounce for ounce, more gun with a poly 9mm than with a steel .45 or .357 Mag. Thats why PDs around the country have Glocks and M&Ps on their hips, and not 1911s or S&W revolvers.
Because 15 > 6. And in the alternative, 15 > 7.
When dealing with marginally effective manstoppers like handgun bullets, more is more, less is less, and too much is not enough.
This is a great mantra. Well said.
Guns-up.50
07-27-11, 14:36
A different thought on the matter:
Just like your power drill is more capable than the drill your grandfather used, today’s criminal is not carrying the same weaponry that yesterday’s criminal did. Times change and we adapt or we fail.
Recent events in Norway are very much on my mind… :(
+1 Yes 1911s are great guns i have two colts (love them) but on my hip is a g17. Its as simple a evolution my grandpa fought in wwII with a m1, outstanding rifles but not my first choice for a fighting gun. We change when something works we cange again when something works better. ie. typewriter to computer both work one better than the other
I own a Kimber 1911 and a Glock 19. The Glock is my go-to gun through and through.
Bottom line for me in regards to a larger magazine capacity...
"Better to have, and not need, than to need, and not have."
I've been struggling with this for years..... Why not a 1911/Revolver vs a 15 round semi-auto for CCW use?
We carried 6 shot revolvers (2) when I was on the PD (now retired). I wanted to carry a 1911 back then but it was unauthorized. Now we have the 15+ round semi-auto. I like the newer guns but I'm still thinking the 1911 is the way to go, but then I wonder if this is not being practical.
I know that shot placement and training is everything but I'd like to get your thoughts on this subject. What do you use? Why?
Thank you.
Many of us have also been struggling with it for years, so you're not alone.
You’re really looking at three issues: revolver vs. auto, 9mm vs. 45 ACP, and the increased complexity/deadliness of the tactical situations that officers are most likely to encounter today.
High-capacity semi-automatic pistols and their ammunition have improved to the point that they’re better tools for the job than either multiple revolvers or the 1911.
If you break your original post into those three areas and search for threads that involve them here, you’ll get an earful.
Okie John
Just on the example of a G17, I have observed officers carrying 2 magazines in addition to a loaded side arm. Not factoring in a BUG, thats, 51 rounds? Just as an outsider looking in, more ammo in a single magazine means one stays in the fight longer. Correct?
Just on the example of a G17, I have observed officers carrying 2 magazines in addition to a loaded side arm. Not factoring in a BUG, thats, 51 rounds? Just as an outsider looking in, more ammo in a single magazine means one stays in the fight longer. Correct?
Lots of schools of thought on this topic. There is also a mental aspect of a fight in which you link how much ammo that you carry with how much ammo you feel comfortable depleting. Basically, if you have a lot of ammo, you're more likely to make the judgment call to deplete more ammo than you would with less ammo on hand. Supply and demand. If you have a large supply of ammo, its value is reduced and you're more likely to deplete it faster with less precision. With less ammo, you're more likely to shoot less, and make your shots count.
This has been an ongoing arguement with the military since multi capacity firearms entered the battle field. I feel that it is more important to select a very reliable, durable firearm, that I can logistically keep running for years to come. The firearm should have excellent handling, and make me seem like a better shooter than I thought I was. If a well made 1911 does this for you, then that should be your choice. Likewise if a Glock does it for you. Personally, I'm not as concerned about high capacity magazines as much any more so long as I can place rounds quickly and accurately where I want them, and have a couple of reloads available.
Here's a quote for Colonel Jeff Cooper who was a big 1911 proponent. Some may agree with it, some may not:
"It has never been clear to me why increased magazine capacity in a defensive pistol is particularly choice. The bigger the magazine the bigger the gun, and the bigger the gun the harder it is to get hold of for people with small hands. And what, pray, does one need all those rounds for? How many lethal antagonists do you think you are going to be able to handle? Once when Bruce Nelson was asked by a suspect if the thirteen-round magazine in the P35 was not a big advantage, Bruce's answer was, "Well, yes, if you plan to miss a lot." The highest score I know of at this time achieved by one man against a group of armed adversaries was recorded in (of all places) the Ivory Coast! There, some years ago, a graduate student of mine laid out five goblins, with four dead and one totaled for the hospital. Of course there is the episode of Alvin York and his eight, but there is some dispute about that tale. (If you read it over very carefully you will see what I mean.) Be that as it may, I see no real need for a double column magazine. It is all the rage, of course, and like dual air bags, it is a popular current sales gimmick."
Tomahawk_Ghost
07-27-11, 16:16
Let's say you're having to carry someone away from danger or you've been shot and have loss the use of one arm or hand.
Reloading one handed is always slower and very hard to do while running.
Carry whatever you are happy with and shoot best, depends on where you live, work environment, etc. When I walk my dogs around my relatively safe neighborhood, a snubby is in my pocket; when I go to work, a glock19 comes along.
I've been struggling with this for years..... Why not a 1911/Revolver vs a 15 round semi-auto for CCW use?
We carried 6 shot revolvers (2) when I was on the PD (now retired). I wanted to carry a 1911 back then but it was unauthorized. Now we have the 15+ round semi-auto. I like the newer guns but I'm still thinking the 1911 is the way to go, but then I wonder if this is not being practical.
I know that shot placement and training is everything but I'd like to get your thoughts on this subject. What do you use? Why?
Thank you.
As a 1911 fan, I will advise that it really isn't the best option. Simply for the reason that they are not as reliable as a lot of the polymer pistols out there, the good ones are very expensive and the round capacity is very limited.
If you want to think of it this way, CCW holders are typically alone and never going to get "back up." So what you have on you (as far as ammo) is it. So for me, the more ammo the better.
If you live in a VERY low crime area and don't think that you will even need a gun, then a 1911 or revolver is just fine I think. If you are like the rest of us though, it is better have it and not need it and than to need it and not have it. ;)
C4
Taint nothing wrong with a wheelgun for duty use. Many LFI's happen at bad breath distance or closer. Contact shots for example can be done with a revolver but would make an auto a single shot if it wasn't pushed OOB. At one point I gave up my Glock 21 and started carrying a 681PC 7 shot 357 on duty. I'd happily pack a wheelgun as my primary weapon on duty or CCW.
misanthropist
07-27-11, 16:58
I would say if you're the kind of person who, in the middle of a gun fight, would suddenly wish you had less ammo on hand, or that you would like to do more mag changes while taking fire, then low-capacity pistols are a great choice!
If you think you would be more inclined to wish you had more ammo, or not have to spend as much time loading while being shot at, then I would say a pistol with a greater capacity would be a better choice.
Incidentally, one thing that came up in a recent pistol course that I was in: people in gun fights (as in multiple guns) typically shoot to slidelock. According to Ken Hackathorn, at least, it is very rare to find weapons with rounds left in them after a gun fight.
Consequently, if I had the choice, I would like that first mag to last as long as possible.
Here's a story that took place where I live. The officer involved had to return fire after having been shot in the face. A more detailed account of this incident that was published in one of the big gun magazines a few months ago also said he was unable to sight his weapon properly to return fire because he had also been shot in his arm (left arm IIRC). His return fire had a 50% hit rate, which IMO isn't bad given his injuries. I wonder how he would have faired if he was armed with a weapon that held half as much ammunition.
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. --
A suspected shoplifting incident at an area mall turned fatal Saturday evening when an off-duty officer was shot in the face, leg and chest.
According to the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office, the wounded officer managed to return fire, killing the suspect.
The incident began at the Belk store in the Regency Square Mall, where Officer Jared Reston and Officer Chris Brown were working security.
At about 7:45 p.m., Belk loss prevention officers noticed two people they thought were shoplifting and alerted the police officers that they were planning to confront the suspects.
The suspects, 19-year-old Christopher Smith and 18-year-old Joel Abner, resisted security and the police officers intervened, according to police.
Security was able to detain Smith, but Abner took off across the mall parking lot and across the Arlington Expressway, leading Reston on a foot pursuit to the 9400 block of Atlantic Boulevard.
Police said at that point, Abner had refused the officer's commands to stop, but pulled a gun and started shooting at the officer. Jacksonville Sheriff's Office booking photo of Joel Abner from a juvenile arrest
"The witness describes the suspect as literally jumping around the officers, standing over him, shooting him while he's laying on the ground. The officer is described by the witness as trying to dodge the shooting that the suspect is doing, and he gets shots back in an effort to defend himself," Undersheriff Frank Mackesy said in a news conference on the day after the shooting. "He then has the presence of mind to get up, and they become engaged in a physical confrontation, during which there's shooting going on."
Mackesy said a total of 26 shots were fired, 12 by Abner, who hit the officer six times, and 14 by Reston, who hit the suspect seven times.
"We know that multiple shots hit him in the chest. Fortunately, he was wearing a bullet-proof vest," Mackesy said. "The officer did have an opportunity, after being fired upon, to return fire, and the suspect is dead."
According to the undersheriff, Abner was using a semi-automatic .45 glock that was found at the scene to have been fired until empty.
"It was a pretty violent scene. We're fortunate the officer isn't dead," Undersheriff Frank Mackesy said. "It was a fight for life and they were in close-quarter combat." Christopher Smith made his first appearance before a judge Sunday on charges of petit theft and opposing a retail merchant.
He said a stolen shirt was found stuffed into Smith's pants and that Abner was wearing a pair of stolen jeans underneath his own pants.
"What turned out to be a simple shoplifting encounter ended up with an officer in a fight for his life," Mackesy said.
Reston is a 5-year veteran with the force.
Police officers showed up at Shands-Jacksonville Medical Center Saturday night to support Reston, who was shot in the face and leg in addition to the multiple gunshots that hit his bulletproof vest. He suffered a broken jaw, which required immediate surgery.
Reston was in critical condition Sunday afternoon.
"Our hope and our prayer is that he's going to have a complete recovery," Mackesy said.
Atlantic Boulevard between Arlington Expressway and Southside Boulevard was closed by the police investigation just after the shooting and was closed for several hours.
What about 11 rounds of .45 as a compromise? LV commented on the accuracy of the mp. Anybody have experience with one of these?
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765773_-1_757782_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
i do carry a j-frame when concealability and comfort are a high priority. It beats the g19 hands down in those departments. I still carry the 19 whenever i can though (basically everywhere except work... too much risk of it showing with just a t-shirt.. i do a lot of plumbing and mechanical work)
I don't see what a 1911 does better than a glock 19 though. Less durable, less corrosion resistant, less reliable, heavier, more expensive, lower capacity.... 45 is arguably a better manstopper.. but last i checked glock made a 45 as well.... :o
What about 11 rounds of .45 as a compromise? LV commented on the accuracy of the mp. Anybody have experience with one of these?
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765773_-1_757782_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
These are one of the best polymer 45's on the market.
C4
i do carry a j-frame when concealability and comfort are a high priority. It beats the g19 hands down in those departments. I still carry the 19 whenever i can though (basically everywhere except work... too much risk of it showing with just a t-shirt.. i do a lot of plumbing and mechanical work)
I don't see what a 1911 does better than a glock 19 though. Less durable, less corrosion resistant, less reliable, heavier, more expensive, lower capacity.... 45 is arguably a better manstopper.. but last i checked glock made a 45 as well.... :o
I really don't think the term "man stopper" and ANY HG caliber should go together.
The ONLY thing that EVER matters is ones ability to make quality hits on the target.
C4
mkmckinley
07-27-11, 19:11
Another important consideration is simplified manual of arms. Something like a Glock or M&P is somewhat easier to use as it does away with a manual safety and a grip safety. Simple is good. I've been in very stressful situations where I've started making a mistake with my hands, even as my brain is saying "don't do that! why are you doing that?" Anything that adds complication to the manual of arms increases the likelihood that something will go wrong when when you need the pistol to go bang. When I draw a pistol I don't want to have to remember to disengage the thumb safety and grip firmly enough to disengage the grip safety. If you want to bring a traditional DA/SA into this then with a Glock you don't have to worry about the whole decocker/safety business.
I'm not convinced that .45 ACP is a significantly better caliber than 9mm when loaded with modern hollowpoint ammo. With 9mm I can make faster hits and train more etc.
I feel comfortable with my custom LW 1911's and even the 442 as a civi...I think the confidence factor should really be your guide.
Like Grant said, the 1911 can be finicky and the buyer really should consider the top shelf brands & shoot them a lot before being a primary carry gun.
I just stuck with the jmb platform since I got into the game & never could get into the hi cap plastic guns. I suggest the plastic 9mm to any new comer as they really are the best route for the masses.
I recently have been toting a 38 super commander built from the ground up on a caspian lw frame. This gives me 10 rounds and have been enjoying the ounces saved over the 230gr pills for the 45 in the same size gun.
I own a Kimber 1911 and a Glock 19. The Glock is my go-to gun through and through."
Exactly - I carried a 1911 for a while, then switched over to a Glock...definitely is the best choice
I really don't think the term "man stopper" and ANY HG caliber should go together.
The ONLY thing that EVER matters is ones ability to make quality hits on the target.
C4
yeah... i guess "manstopper" is more the argument i hear with 45, as opposed to the reality. "anemic" is a better word for handgun rounds.
I've been struggling with this for years..... Why not a 1911/Revolver vs a 15 round semi-auto for CCW use?
We carried 6 shot revolvers (2) when I was on the PD (now retired). I wanted to carry a 1911 back then but it was unauthorized. Now we have the 15+ round semi-auto. I like the newer guns but I'm still thinking the 1911 is the way to go, but then I wonder if this is not being practical.
I know that shot placement and training is everything but I'd like to get your thoughts on this subject. What do you use? Why?
Thank you.
The best gun for you allows you to put HITS on target in an expeditious manner. You can not miss fast enough to win a gunfight. If you shoot a 1911 best, carry a 1911. Just know you should carry additional magazines and be proficient in their use. Know that you will have to be more vigilant with maintenance.
Carry what you are most comfortable with...to hell with what others think, as long as you know your chosen platforms strengths/limitations and are prepared to deal with them.
Beat Trash
07-27-11, 20:31
I would say if you're the kind of person who, in the middle of a gun fight, would suddenly wish you had less ammo on hand, or that you would like to do more mag changes while taking fire, then low-capacity pistols are a great choice!
If you think you would be more inclined to wish you had more ammo, or not have to spend as much time loading while being shot at, then I would say a pistol with a greater capacity would be a better choice.
Incidentally, one thing that came up in a recent pistol course that I was in: people in gun fights (as in multiple guns) typically shoot to slidelock. According to Ken Hackathorn, at least, it is very rare to find weapons with rounds left in them after a gun fight.
Consequently, if I had the choice, I would like that first mag to last as long as possible.
I can think of only two Police Intervention shootings within the last 19 years I've been with my agency in which the officer has shot to slide lock. One was a close friend who was in a gunfight with another individual who had two spare magazines. Both pinned down shooting at each other.
The other was when a new officer was pinned down in a bathroom and wounded. Both the suspect and officer reloaded. The officer reloaded first. He walked away..
The days of suspects armed with a knife or a .25 auto went the way of the Police revolver. Multiple suspects, all armed with semiauto handguns and long guns are here to stay.
There is a reason the Glock 19 is so popular. It brings a lot to the table as far as size, weight, durability, shoot ability and capacity. Just because you have the extra rounds, doesn't mean you have to use them. But ammunition is just like money, it's better to end up with extra than come up short.
Unless someone is going to be significantly better with a revolver or 1911 in a shootout (range time does not necessarily reflect the difference in fight performance perfectly) then there isn't much to consider in favor of them besides "its cool". The different traits as mentioned by others are something you might as well go with even if they won't be needed. To repeat, its better to have and not need then need and not have.
I can think of only two Police Intervention shootings within the last 19 years I've been with my agency in which the officer has shot to slide lock. One was a close friend who was in a gunfight with another individual who had two spare magazines. Both pinned down shooting at each other.
The other was when members of our Vice unit went to conduct a liquor inspection at a bar. The national enforcer of a Outlaw Motorcycle gang opened fire on the officers as they approached the bar. Two officers wounded, one biker DOA.
The days of suspects armed with a knife or a .25 auto went the way of the Police revolver. Multiple suspects, all armed with semiauto handguns and long guns are here to stay.
There is a reason the Glock 19 is so popular. It brings a lot to the table as far as size, weight, durability, shoot ability and capacity. Just because you have the extra rounds, doesn't mean you have to use them. But ammunition is just like money, it's better to end up with extra than come up short.
I've seen it go both ways. We had a spate of shootings where the officers fired a single shot. Sometimes the suspect stopped and sometimes they didn't, but generally the hits were effective. We also had some prolonged engagements where officers fired multiple magazines. There were usually a lot more misses than hits in those.
In the many post shooting debriefings I participated in, one thing was very clear. Most often, the officers who took their training seriously and practiced regularly were the ones who performed the best and usually survived. Often, the officers who shot their gun once a year at annual qualification and goofed off during quarterly training shoots were the ones who had extreme difficulty or didn't survive. My agency was very large and even though you can't possibly know everyone, you can glean a lot from talking to the officers involved and talking to their precinct training sergeants. The bottom line is that training seriously, training realistically and cultivating a warrior mindset can and will save your life. I think that is a more important consideration than the caliber of the gun you shoot and it may even help you avoid a gunfight.
That being said, I'm not old enough to have been a cop in the revolver days, but my father was. He carried a S&W .38 for most of his career until his agency issued him a Glock 17 in the 80's. As a patolman and ESU officer he had survived three gunfights using that .38 and a pump gun. When given a G17 with 18 rounds out of the holster he was dumbfounded. "Where the hell has this thing been?" he said was the first thing he thought. "I could have used this years ago." Interestingly, in all three of his gunfights he never fired more than four rounds in any of them. However, having more ammo was a source of confidence and having confidence in your equipment goes a long way in a life and death fight. If I had it to do all over again as a 22 year old recruit, I'd still take my Glock 17 over a 1911 and I'd gladly take my AR15 over either of them if I could. I value my marksmanship, mechanics and ability to remain active in the fight, especially against multiple threats, more than the caliber of the gun.
Take a look at this study and you'll see by and large, with the standard handgun calibers, things are pretty damn equal across the board as far as the percentage to incapacitate with first and second round shots.
What does it mean to me? Be damn good and confident with whatever sidearm you choose, and if that confidence can partly stem from the fact of knowing you having enough ammo capacity for the job, then so be it.
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
.
Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday, Hickock, etc, would have carried a Glock if they'd been available.
Just on the example of a G17, I have observed officers carrying 2 magazines in addition to a loaded side arm. Not factoring in a BUG, thats, 51 rounds? Just as an outsider looking in, more ammo in a single magazine means one stays in the fight longer. Correct?
If it is done correctly, I believe it should be 52 rounds. Three seventeen round magazines, and one in the chamber.
I live in MA which only allows me to carry 10 rd mags, so I carry a M&P 45 and train hard to make sure every round counts. If I legally could I would definitely carry high-cap mags, in this case I feel that more is better.
misanthropist
07-28-11, 00:55
I can think of only two Police Intervention shootings within the last 19 years I've been with my agency in which the officer has shot to slide lock. One was a close friend who was in a gunfight with another individual who had two spare magazines. Both pinned down shooting at each other.
The other was when a new officer was pinned down in a bathroom and wounded. Both the suspect and officer reloaded. The officer reloaded first. He walked away..
The days of suspects armed with a knife or a .25 auto went the way of the Police revolver. Multiple suspects, all armed with semiauto handguns and long guns are here to stay.
There is a reason the Glock 19 is so popular. It brings a lot to the table as far as size, weight, durability, shoot ability and capacity. Just because you have the extra rounds, doesn't mean you have to use them. But ammunition is just like money, it's better to end up with extra than come up short.
Sorry, to clarify, I believe this was in reference to civilian defensive shootings, rather than gunfights involving police officers, who on average burn fewer rounds than civilians (according to the information presented at the time. I do not have any personal experience with this).
I love 1911 handguns. If you really want one and buy a quality piece and shoot it about 1,000 rounds with various ammo to make sure it will run when needed, go for it. And train with it.....But I would suggest you don't buy miniature 1911, they suck. Full sized government 1911 is the best way to go, which is quite heavy and large for CC. A high quality plastic pistol makes a lot of sense, even though from time to time, I tuck a 1911 just because I like them. But usually the plastic guns gets the pick.
Alpha Sierra
07-28-11, 04:30
I live in MA which only allows me to carry 10 rd mags
That is patently incorrect.
You can own and carry magazines of as high a capacity as you can find so long as they are made prior to the magic date in 1994 and you have an LTC-A.
So ditch that M&P, get a SIG or a Glock, and stock up on pre-ban magazines.
Alpha Sierra
07-28-11, 04:32
Here's a quote for Colonel Jeff Cooper who was a big 1911 proponent. Some may agree with it, some may not:
"It has never been clear to me why increased magazine capacity in a defensive pistol is particularly choice. The bigger the magazine the bigger the gun, and the bigger the gun the harder it is to get hold of for people with small hands. And what, pray, does one need all those rounds for? How many lethal antagonists do you think you are going to be able to handle? Once when Bruce Nelson was asked by a suspect if the thirteen-round magazine in the P35 was not a big advantage, Bruce's answer was, "Well, yes, if you plan to miss a lot." The highest score I know of at this time achieved by one man against a group of armed adversaries was recorded in (of all places) the Ivory Coast! There, some years ago, a graduate student of mine laid out five goblins, with four dead and one totaled for the hospital. Of course there is the episode of Alvin York and his eight, but there is some dispute about that tale. (If you read it over very carefully you will see what I mean.) Be that as it may, I see no real need for a double column magazine. It is all the rage, of course, and like dual air bags, it is a popular current sales gimmick."
Some will consider this heresy, but after a certain point in his life, Jeff Cooper's technical opinions re handguns became irrelevant.
couch_potato
07-28-11, 05:39
Some will consider this heresy, but after a certain point in his life, Jeff Cooper's technical opinions re handguns became irrelevant.
Please elaborate?
Glocks are durable, reliable, accurate, lightweight, weather impervious, and exceptionally easy to maintain, detail-strip, and replace parts (which are inexpensive and very widely available).
The fact that all Glock models (other than the G36) have a higher magazine capacity than 6 rounds is a great benefit-but secondarily to what I've laid out above, IMO.
The G17 was primarily designed for military service-hence the higher capacity magazine. For the rest of us, it's certainly nice to have the on-hand ammunition capacity, even if it is for most practical purposes a reserve/confidence builder.
While I certainly enjoy and cherish my 1911s and revolvers, I am far more likely to carry my Glocks. They simply provide an overwhelming set of advantages to a user.
Best, Jon
"And what, pray, does one need all those rounds for?"
With the scenario that he presented in the Ivory Coast, with a 1911 he's at slide lock before he's put 2 rounds in each of them with a 100% hit rate. I know the .45ACP is a 'one shot stopper' but...
Sorry, but more capacity in a equal or smaller size gun is not a bad thing. And the "what does one need all those rounds for" sounds like a pro-AWB argument from the Brady Bunch or Bill Ruger. It's not like we are talking about walking around like Keanu Reeves when he goes through the metal detector towards the end of The Matrix.
"The bigger the magazine the bigger the gun, and the bigger the gun the harder it is to get hold of for people with small hands."
A compact Glock (i.e. 19/23) is smaller than a 1911, about half the weight empty, and about twice the capacity (in 9mm).
Yeah, .45ACP or bust. I get it.
...there isn't much to consider in favor of them besides "its cool"...
That sums it up.
There is no argument. I own Glocks 1911s and revolvers.
Through time, the trend of attacks, etc on victims has changed to more of a pack mentality. It's not always true, but it has changed from years past.
The increase of gang related crime has also increased the chance that you may get caught up in something that involves multiples instead of the lone assailants.
Although the packs are predatory, the lone attackers are more determined and dangerous.
RiflemanBobcat
07-28-11, 08:22
Please elaborate?
I think he's referring to the Colonel's attachment to the Model 1911 and .45 ACP.
Aside from the Bren Ten, I don't know if Col. Cooper ever actually advocated any sidearm wholeheartedly, other than the 1911. And he certainly wasn't giving up his affection for, and attachment to, the .45 ACP anytime soon. IIRC, he lamented in one of his Commentaries when one of the ammunition companies (might have been Hornady? Don't know for sure on this) stopped mfg'ing FMJ-Truncated Cone .45 loads, as he preferred those to all others.
While the Colonel did eventually, grudgingly, kind of admit that the Glock 9mm pistols were not going away, and even had a certain usefulness, he never really got past the 1911 and .45.
Meanwhile, time and technology advanced.
Littlelebowski
07-28-11, 08:30
Please elaborate?
Reread this thread. It's all right here.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
Sounds like he has been there.
Alpha Sierra
07-28-11, 09:22
Please elaborate?
Elaboration is not necessary. The point is obvious.
TriumphRat675
07-28-11, 10:20
Cooper was a smart guy, and did a lot to advance the theory and practice of practical shooting.
BUT his theory quickly turned into dogma, which - according to Very Important People in the training industry who worked with him directly - you were not allowed to question, on pain of getting invited to leave his company.
The problem with that is technology and tactical thinking do not stand still. Cooper's thinking got sclerotic after a certain point in his life. His attachment to 1911 and .45 made sense in the '70s, and some of his lessons still have relevance today. But by and large, his doctrines and preferred weapons have been eclipsed by the up-to-date. Glocks and Ar's are more effective choices for armed self-defense than 1911's and scout rifles. There is no way to dispute this that relies on logic instead of nostalgia.
Some will consider this heresy, but after a certain point in his life, Jeff Cooper's technical opinions re handguns became irrelevant.
Thank God someone stood up and said it.
Don't misunderstand me. I believe Cooper did a lot for handgun fighting. I just believe it was decades ago. A lot has changed since his day. This reminds me of Grant mentioning recently that a lot of laws have changed and new ones written in the years since a Massad Ayoob article was printed that someone here posted a comment or question on.
I like 1911's. I have two and still enjoy shooting them, even carrying one of them on rare occasions. But at the end of the day it's primarily Glocks and HK's for me now.
We need to get over the romance of the 1911 and get on to the business of shooting smelly bad guys in the face with a modern auto.
It always seemed odd to me that Cooper, a combat veteran, would turn his nose up at the prospect of a gun with more ammunition. I know that wound ballistics was essentially non-existent or in its infancy for most of his life and he abhorred 9mm, but having been on the two way range a few times, I cannot think of a time where I wished I had less ammo in my weapons. As was stated earlier, his dogma essentially froze in time in the early 1970's or even late 60's. Even then, it was starting to show its age. The world was moving toward smaller intermediate weapons with higher capacity and lighter ammunition. Cooper's scout rifle concept might work well if you live on a 1000 acre ranch, but what happens when they get in your house? Oh, that's right, grab a 1911 loaded with truncated projectiles.
I sometimes wonder if it stemmed from the definition he may have had in his own mind for the word he oft uttered: "manstopper". I think maybe his ultimate measure of a handgun round was how fast he felt it killed an adversary and less about how fast it incapacitated them, dead or otherwise, and removed them from the fight. I think his experiences with the .45 led him to believe that the 1911 .45 ACP was some kind of "death ray" that the "wonder 9's" could never be. For what it's worth, I've seen several suspects soak up .45 ACP like a sponge and run for blocks. I've also seen people hit with .22LR dead right there from a single wound in the chest. The anecdotal evidence offered by guys like Cooper, Ayoob, Marshall and Sanow, etc. place field or street experience above all else. I suppose that's good, but for every "one shot stop" made by Cor-Bon 230 grain +p on the mean streets of Timbucktoo, I could probably show you another made by a pimp's .25 auto in Queens.
We need to get over the romance of the 1911 and get on to the business of shooting smelly bad guys in the face with a modern auto.
I see what you did there...
Bob
Let's say you're having to carry someone away from danger or you've been shot and have loss the use of one arm or hand.
Reloading one handed is always slower and very hard to do while running.
Is this an argument for or against the revolver/1911 ???
Is this an argument for or against the revolver/1911 ???
It's much easier to reload a semi than a revolver one handed.
I would say that if you are reloading a 15 shot blaster you need to stop pissing off so many people.
As a 1911 fan, I will advise that it really isn't the best option. Simply for the reason that they are not as reliable as a lot of the polymer pistols out there, the good ones are very expensive and the round capacity is very limited.
If you want to think of it this way, CCW holders are typically alone and never going to get "back up." So what you have on you (as far as ammo) is it. So for me, the more ammo the better.
If you live in a VERY low crime area and don't think that you will even need a gun, then a 1911 or revolver is just fine I think. If you are like the rest of us though, it is better have it and not need it and than to need it and not have it. ;)
C4
Did you ditch the HK P7 entirely?
Dave Williams
07-28-11, 12:32
My Glock worshiping/1911 hating buddy forwarded me this thread. This type of 1911 bashing thread is like his porn.:bad: Plus throw in the Jeff Cooper bashing and the .45ACP bashing and he is in hog heaven.
There is nothing wrong with a good 1911. People with TONS of experience choose the 1911.
People with TONS of experience consider the 1911 obsolete.
It's all personal preference.
I have to carry a Glock, a dead nuts reliable Gen4 G22. I would ditch it right now in favor of a good 1911, probably a Colt Rail Gun.
Dave Williams
Littlelebowski
07-28-11, 12:34
There's no Cooper bashing going on in this thread.
That is patently incorrect.
You can own and carry magazines of as high a capacity as you can find so long as they are made prior to the magic date in 1994 and you have an LTC-A.
So ditch that M&P, get a SIG or a Glock, and stock up on pre-ban magazines.
I am pretty sure that you can't carry more then 10rds in a mag anyway (civi that is) in MA.
I am pretty sure that you can't carry more then 10rds in a mag anyway (civi that is) in MA.
You can if you have a Class A (unrestricted) LTC.
for different folks.
1) I'm a geezer.
2) I'm set in my ways.
3) I started on wheelguns, then moved to 40+ years on 1911s, then started sampling plastic (MP 9 & Glocks).
4) Attached is a pic of my household "grab & go" gun.
Having said all of the above, if faced with a TEOTWAWKI situation where I needed to grab one gun as I headed out the door - it isn't even a tough choice. Glock 17.
Yes - even old dogs can learn some new tricks:)
john
Did you ditch the HK P7 entirely?
Nope. I carry a reload. I am also typically around other CCW holders (to include my wife) that have a gun on them.
On top of that, I am in rural Ohio. There is less than 1 murder a year in the county.
Now, if I roll through Canton and such, I will commonly upgrade to something with 10rds-15rds in it.
I think it is important for people to examine their environment and adjust accordingly.
The above is for out in the public carry. At home (for property defense), I have a 17rd M&P available and of course and AR.
C4
for different folks.
1) I'm a geezer.
2) I'm set in my ways.
3) I started on wheelguns, then moved to 40+ years on 1911s, then started sampling plastic (MP 9 & Glocks).
4) Attached is a pic of my household "grab & go" gun.
Having said all of the above, if faced with a TEOTWAWKI situation where I needed to grab one gun as I headed out the door - it isn't even a tough choice. Glock 17.
Yes - even old dogs can learn some new tricks:)
john
I think there is a big difference to HD guns and out in public guns.
Meaning, that when I am at home, open carry is the norm. So a big gun is commonly worn. Out in public, I am usually in a heavily occupied area and really have to work on concealing a weapon (as people are rubbing up against me and looking me over).
C4
My Glock worshiping/1911 hating buddy forwarded me this thread. This type of 1911 bashing thread is like his porn.:bad: Plus throw in the Jeff Cooper bashing and the .45ACP bashing and he is in hog heaven.
There is nothing wrong with a good 1911. People with TONS of experience choose the 1911.
People with TONS of experience consider the 1911 obsolete.
It's all personal preference.
I have to carry a Glock, a dead nuts reliable Gen4 G22. I would ditch it right now in favor of a good 1911, probably a Colt Rail Gun.
Dave Williams
No one is bashing Cooper. He had his time and during that time, with the guns of the day his opinions and tactical philosophies were sound. Times changed and he didn't. It's no more complicated than that. I certainly don't hate the man, he was a warrior and a gunfighter, but like Elmer Keith and others, he had his day and the world is turning.
My Glock worshiping/1911 hating buddy forwarded me this thread. This type of 1911 bashing thread is like his porn.:bad: Plus throw in the Jeff Cooper bashing and the .45ACP bashing and he is in hog heaven.
There is nothing wrong with a good 1911. People with TONS of experience choose the 1911.
People with TONS of experience consider the 1911 obsolete.
It's all personal preference.
I have to carry a Glock, a dead nuts reliable Gen4 G22. I would ditch it right now in favor of a good 1911, probably a Colt Rail Gun.
Dave Williams
I understand what you are saying. I think the point that people are trying to make is that the 1911 would be considered a less reliable weapon when compared to a modern polymer gun. Then when you throw in the fact that the good ones are expensive, require a lot of maintenance and don't hold a lot of ammo, they look like a poor choice.
If you told me that I would have to clear a house with a 1911 (whether as a Civy or LE), I would have some big concerns with that.
C4
Alpha Sierra
07-28-11, 13:46
I am pretty sure that you can't carry more then 10rds in a mag anyway (civi that is) in MA.
I am positive that I am right and you are not.
Do yourself a favor and go to northeastshooters.com. Ask the same question there.
Or keep carrying less ammo than you can just because you don't want to learn the facts. It makes no difference to me since I get to carry whatever I want and I don't have to grovel to the police to do so.
Dave Williams
07-28-11, 13:48
Grant next time I am down I will tell you what we went through with our guns, it will make you want to vomit.
Dave Williams
Rosco Benson
07-28-11, 13:48
On top of that, I am in rural Ohio. There is less than 1 murder a year in the county.
Now, if I roll through Canton and such, I will commonly upgrade to something with 10rds-15rds in it.
I think it is important for people to examine their environment and adjust accordingly.
C4
That one murdered guy still feels pretty dead (and lonely too, being the sole stiff in the cornfield that year). Kidding a bit, but it's something to think about.
Most all of us do the "adjust to our anticipated environment" drill. If we're just running to the store for a gallon of milk, we stick a J-frame in our pocket. Given that we aren't prescient, this is clearly a bad idea. If we are in a fight for our life, it doesn't matter whether we're in the 'hood at 0300 or in the most high-falootin' suburb on a blue-skied Sunday afternoon. We should keep this firmly in mind.
I still think a good 1911 is an effective sidearm for the switched-on individual user. It isn't a good across-the-board issue pistol for, say, a police department or similar. Too many of those users won't be up to the care it needs and won't shoot well enough to exploit its main advantage (its trigger action).
High capacity is great, but it's not a free lunch. In order to keep the pistol's butt-size reasonable for a majority of users, one is pushed toward smaller calibers. 9mm can be effective, but a lot depends on the load selected. S&W's M&P 45 might be called a mid-cap and, especially with the Apex kit, might be the pistol to choose.
As to the Cooper comments; I admired Jeff Cooper greatly and had the great pleasure of having him for a teacher on two occasions. I don't think all advancement of the art stopped with Cooper. I will suggest, however, that those who have continued to advance the art have been able to do so because of Cooper's pioneering efforts. Something about standing on the shoulders of giants come to mind.
Rosco
Grant next time I am down I will tell you what we went through with our guns, it will make you want to vomit.
Dave Williams
With your GEN 4 Glock's?
C4
Mauser KAR98K
07-28-11, 14:06
This topic came up with me and my pop on our way to his work. I told him I was heavily considering getting my CCW (for the first time) due to the economy, rise in violent crime in the nation (and starting to rear its head in our local rural/suburban areas), and the fact I'm working to get back into LE as a reservist while attending school.
Then the discussion came to the chose of weapon. My dad is of the "old school" and all that counts is shot placement, shot placement, and control: so stick to one of our two Colt 1911s. I agree with him on that standpoint, but I also said that times and tactics on the nut-jobs and criminal element have changed. I'd rather have the 15+ rounds and not need them than not have them but need them.
I also have a Browning Hi-Power that I love to shoot and admire, but I don't trust it in a bad situation.
If you told me that I would have to clear a house with a 1911 (whether as a Civy or LE), I would have some big concerns with that.
C4
I clear a house/building at least a couple of times a week on night shift with a P220. I feel pretty comfortable with it.
I think there is a big difference to HD guns and out in public guns.
C4
Gee - people can actually carry out in public???????
john - FROM ILLINOIS:(
No one is bashing Cooper. He had his time and during that time, with the guns of the day his opinions and tactical philosophies were sound. Times changed and he didn't. It's no more complicated than that. I certainly don't hate the man, he was a warrior and a gunfighter, but like Elmer Keith and others, he had his day and the world is turning.
Agreed, the equipment used by your adversary has changed since Cooper's prime, thus so has your adversary's tactics. Terminal effects though has not changed. A determined adversary will continue to fight/shoot you until they have run out of ammo, you have made a CNS hit on them, or they bleed out. Now days, it is harder to depend on the badguy running out of ammo.
While the Colonel did eventually, grudgingly, kind of admit that the Glock 9mm pistols were not going away, and even had a certain usefulness, he never really got past the 1911 and .45.
Meanwhile, time and technology advanced.
Several years back, I was fortunate enough to speak with Col. Cooper while we sat in his "gun room". On the bench - in plain sight (i.e., not locked away like so many of his other weapons) was a Glock 17. No - the conversation never got around to that topic:)
john
Dave Williams
07-28-11, 14:37
I clear a house/building at least a couple of times a week on night shift with a P220. I feel pretty comfortable with it.
That's all that really matters.
Dave Williams
I clear a house/building at least a couple of times a week on night shift with a P220. I feel pretty comfortable with it.
Have you ever been in a shoot house where there were multiple threats and you had to fight your way through it??
This is where guns with only 7-8rds start to suck and why instructors that teach CQB/HD recommend against a gun with more bullets in them.
C4
Have you ever been in a shoot house where there were multiple threats and you had to fight your way through it??
This is where guns with only 7-8rds start to suck and why instructors that teach CQB/HD recommend against a gun with more bullets in them.
C4
In training, yes. In real life, no. Most of my real life scenarios involve 1-2 perps and the option of additional officers. We also don't go in blind, and case out the perimeter prior to entry which often gives us an approximate idea of how many suspects are inside before we go in.
I will say that more ammo is always a nice thing. I tend to go back and forth between my P220 and my 9mm Sigs.
TriumphRat675
07-28-11, 15:06
I have cleared exactly one shoot-house. I fired four to five rounds total doing so.
It struck me after the fact that had that been a real scenario, after shooting those four or five rounds I sure would rather have a 2/3 full gun instead of a 2/3 empty one.
On to another point...Doc GKR had a good post on another forum about the "new" j-frame - i.e., his Glock 19. He pointed out that a compact auto holds twice the ammunition as the j-frame, is almost as easy to conceal, is much easier to shoot, etc., etc.
With all of the options we have available in terms of compact and sub-compact flavors of reliable pistols, as well as a million different types of holsters for them, it amazes me that people still run around with j-frames.
What really amazes me is that I'm one of them. I do it all the damn time. And I live in a fairly violent large urban area. Go figure.
In training, yes. In real life, no. Most of my real life scenarios involve 1-2 perps and the option of additional officers. We also don't go in blind, and case out the perimeter prior to entry which often gives us an approximate idea of how many suspects are inside before we go in.
I will say that more ammo is always a nice thing. I tend to go back and forth between my P220 and my 9mm Sigs.
Civy's typically don't have a "back up." So again, more bullets in the gun is VERY important.
C4
Something about standing on the shoulders of giants come to mind.
Exactly.
Cooper's thoughts on gunfighting are like Rogers Standing Orders for Rangers: update to allow for modern gear and you'll get home safely.
Okie John
Civy's typically don't have a "back up." So again, more bullets in the gun is VERY important.
C4
Agreed. A salient point and one that is often not addressed. A civilian will likely not have a back up, body armor or more than a handgun at their disposal. The same is true for an off duty officer.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as you can hit what you're aiming at on a consistent basis, under stress, then you've earned the right to carry whatever you please. I carry a 1911 often and have never felt under-gunned with it, but I've recently switched to a G19 because of the lighter weight and smaller OAL. The fact that it holds twice as much ammo wasn't a factor with me, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
Agreed. A salient point and one that is often not addressed. A civilian will likely not have a back up, body armor or more than a handgun at their disposal. The same is true for an off duty officer.
True, but another aspect to look at is the likely foe that a civilian would face. In officer involved shootings, the fight is often to the death because the perpetrator feels that they have nothing to lose. They are a cornered rat, and to win the fight is the only way out.
In most robberies and burglaries, the motive is not to kill you, but to take property. Once the civilian uses deadly force in defense, there may be an exchange of fire, but most of the time the perpetrator will retreat rather than risk injury or death. VERY rarely does a civilian shooting have a criminal that is not willing to retreat once shots are exchanged. This is common even in rape cases where the victim will get the chance to use a weapon on the perp and the perp will retreat. Even in mass shootings, the gunman will either shoot themselves, or retreat when they encounter someone shooting at them.
A criminal acts on you, because they see you as a victim. When they see that you are a fighter, and are capable of injuring and/or killing them, then they almost always chicken out.
Just keep in mind that those are generalizations at best...and ones that don't really help you if you have the misfortune of encountering someone (or a group of someones) who doesn't run away at the first sign of resistance.
Nephrology
07-28-11, 17:04
A criminal acts on you, because they see you as a victim. When they see that you are a fighter, and are capable of injuring and/or killing them, then they almost always chicken out.
Not something I'm going to bet the farm on necessarily....
Most all of us do the "adjust to our anticipated environment" drill. If we're just running to the store for a gallon of milk, we stick a J-frame in our pocket. Given that we aren't prescient, this is clearly a bad idea.
When I make a run to the local convenience store to get my business mail I am probably in the highest risk area in town. There is a Taquirea to the left of the stop and rob and a half naked barrista coffee stand to the right. Trying to predict where I need to be better armed is futile in my mind, but if I had to assign a low risk it wouldn't be at a convenience store. Also the better I get with my G19 the less well armed I feel with a Jframe. I am currently looking for a better pocket solution than the Jframe, for situations where I can't adequately conceal my G19, not for convenience only. I am leaning towards replacing it with a Walther PPS as my budget allows.
Through time, the trend of attacks, etc on victims has changed to more of a pack mentality. It's not always true, but it has changed from years past.
The increase of gang related crime has also increased the chance that you may get caught up in something that involves multiples instead of the lone assailants.
Although the packs are predatory, the lone attackers are more determined and dangerous.
This is something that I think to many overlook in todays society, times are changeing and these scenarios are becomeing more and more a reality, plus you have to consider that some of these individuals are receiving more training and bringing better weapons to the fight so trying to even the playing field as much as possible is a good thing.
When it comes to pushing primers on bad people you can never have to much gas in the gun.
Just keep in mind that those are generalizations at best...and ones that don't really help you if you have the misfortune of encountering someone (or a group of someones) who doesn't run away at the first sign of resistance.
Generalizations based on repeated and observed experiences. Pragmatism is a more reliable method to achieve desired results.
Shot placement is important but in my few encounters over the years I've found that easily placing a shot in the kill zone must be accomplished in the first second or two of the encounter. After that its assholes and elbows while trying to find cover and hits of opprotunity seem to rule the day. That said, I generally carry a G19 but occasionally carry the 1911.
DeltaSierra
07-28-11, 18:32
I am positive that I am right and you are not.
Do yourself a favor and go to northeastshooters.com. Ask the same question there.
Or keep carrying less ammo than you can just because you don't want to learn the facts. It makes no difference to me since I get to carry whatever I want and I don't have to grovel to the police to do so.
Alpha Sierra -
You are correct in stating that a Class A LTC allows you to carry a high capacity magazine.
"CLASS “A" LTC: Permits the purchase, possession and carrying of handguns and feeding devices (both large and non-large capacity). This is the only license that allows the carrying of concealed handguns-either loaded or unloaded."
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/education/hed/hed_gun_laws.htm
Note as well that the application form CLEARLY states this: "Class A License to Carry - Large Capacity."
http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/Resident_LTC_FID_Application.pdf
Shot placement is important but in my few encounters over the years I've found that easily placing a shot in the kill zone must be accomplished in the first second or two of the encounter. After that its assholes and elbows while trying to find cover and hits of opprotunity seem to rule the day. That said, I generally carry a G19 but occasionally carry the 1911.
This is right on the mark.
Alpha Sierra
07-28-11, 19:01
Alpha Sierra -
You are correct in stating that a Class A LTC allows you to carry a high capacity magazine.
"CLASS “A" LTC: Permits the purchase, possession and carrying of handguns and feeding devices (both large and non-large capacity). This is the only license that allows the carrying of concealed handguns-either loaded or unloaded."
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/education/hed/hed_gun_laws.htm
Note as well that the application form CLEARLY states this: "Class A License to Carry - Large Capacity."
http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/Resident_LTC_FID_Application.pdf
The person whom I directed my comments still thinks that even with pre ban mags one can only load up ten rounds.
That can't be cured.....
True, but another aspect to look at is the likely foe that a civilian would face. In officer involved shootings, the fight is often to the death because the perpetrator feels that they have nothing to lose. They are a cornered rat, and to win the fight is the only way out.
In most robberies and burglaries, the motive is not to kill you, but to take property. Once the civilian uses deadly force in defense, there may be an exchange of fire, but most of the time the perpetrator will retreat rather than risk injury or death. VERY rarely does a civilian shooting have a criminal that is not willing to retreat once shots are exchanged. This is common even in rape cases where the victim will get the chance to use a weapon on the perp and the perp will retreat. Even in mass shootings, the gunman will either shoot themselves, or retreat when they encounter someone shooting at them.
A criminal acts on you, because they see you as a victim. When they see that you are a fighter, and are capable of injuring and/or killing them, then they almost always chicken out.
I agree with much of this and my experiences are much the same. Nevertheless, I still would not take my 1911 into harm's way if my Glock 17 was available. As was said earlier: More is more. Less is less. I have been involved in gunfights as both a police officer and security contractor overseas. I have never wished to have less ammo and those experiences shape my mindset now. I will likely never have to defend myself from one, let alone multiple bad guys in a life and death situation again. But you can bet your life that I will be prepared mentally, physically and equipment wise to the best of my ability for either scenario.
Be safe.
Shot placement is important but in my few encounters over the years I've found that easily placing a shot in the kill zone must be accomplished in the first second or two of the encounter. After that its assholes and elbows while trying to find cover and hits of opprotunity seem to rule the day. That said, I generally carry a G19 but occasionally carry the 1911.
Great post, sir. I agree totally.
True, but another aspect to look at is the likely foe that a civilian would face. In officer involved shootings, the fight is often to the death because the perpetrator feels that they have nothing to lose. They are a cornered rat, and to win the fight is the only way out.
In most robberies and burglaries, the motive is not to kill you, but to take property. Once the civilian uses deadly force in defense, there may be an exchange of fire, but most of the time the perpetrator will retreat rather than risk injury or death. VERY rarely does a civilian shooting have a criminal that is not willing to retreat once shots are exchanged. This is common even in rape cases where the victim will get the chance to use a weapon on the perp and the perp will retreat. Even in mass shootings, the gunman will either shoot themselves, or retreat when they encounter someone shooting at them.
A criminal acts on you, because they see you as a victim. When they see that you are a fighter, and are capable of injuring and/or killing them, then they almost always chicken out.
A Law Officer is using lethal force in the same situations that a private citizen is using lethal force--in defense of human life against dangerous people.
The violent criminals who the citizens are likely to have to shoot are the same that the police face. These criminals exhibit extreme violence toward their own criminal associates, including shooting and stabbing them, during disputes. So I would not expect them to turn into wimps and flee when facing an armed citizen any more than they would if they were embroiled in a violent dispute with someone who pissed them off--as they would be pissed off by a citizen resisting or shooting at them.
Is it true that most civi encounters average 3 shots fired against the BG's??
I remember reading some fbi factoid about this some time ago (mabey cooper:):rolleyes:)and seems reasonable for us mortals..."Oh no", soil pants (bang-bang-bang) dead or running for cover??
This happened in my city....and it happens more and more.
I'll carry a J frame Airweight as a back up, but not a primary.
I like 1911's, had many over the years, and have two in the safe, but a Glock 19 and a spare mag can easily be carried even when wearing shorts.
You'll have to sign in to watch the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48gt9cceZ-w
Alpha Sierra
07-28-11, 20:02
Is it true that most civi encounters average 3 shots fired against the BG's??
The average doesn't matter when you're stuck in a gunfight that is on the high side of the average, now will it?
I am positive that I am right and you are not.
Do yourself a favor and go to northeastshooters.com. Ask the same question there.
Or keep carrying less ammo than you can just because you don't want to learn the facts. It makes no difference to me since I get to carry whatever I want and I don't have to grovel to the police to do so.
I never stated it as a "fact" that you can only carry 10rds, something I was told by LEO and never fact checked due to not owning guns that have pre-ban mags. MA is so screwed up it's impossible to know all the facts. Just purchased an M&P 15 today and was actually able to purchase pre-ban Colt mags, first time pre-ban mags ever applied to me.
The average doesn't matter when you're stuck in a gunfight that is on the high side of the average, now will it?
sigh...that wasn't my question, was it??
Just wondering if the stats I stated were indeed factual...I will take my sbr over a glock in a gun fight if you want to pick the fly shit out of the pepper.
Are there any true life stats for how many rounds fired for the average civi gun owner & gunfight encounter?? I don't care about what shotgun, pistol or rifle was used.
Six Feet Under
07-28-11, 20:55
Because I want to be able to do this
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/img_0852.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/261d1d2a.jpg
to the guy trying to beat me to death more than seven times.
(yes that is me in the picture. Winchester Ranger SXT 127gr out of a Glock 19 from a foot away)
My Glock worshiping/1911 hating buddy forwarded me this thread. This type of 1911 bashing thread is like his porn.:bad: Plus throw in the Jeff Cooper bashing and the .45ACP bashing and he is in hog heaven.
There is nothing wrong with a good 1911. People with TONS of experience choose the 1911.
People with TONS of experience consider the 1911 obsolete.
It's all personal preference.
I have to carry a Glock, a dead nuts reliable Gen4 G22. I would ditch it right now in favor of a good 1911, probably a Colt Rail Gun.
Dave Williams
So now if you don't volunteer for a threesome with Jeff Cooper and John Moses Browning, on a bed of .45ACP cartridges, your a basher?
-Right now there are Spc4's with a few years of service that have been in more gunfights and killed more people with that "poodle shooter" then Cooper ever dreamed of.
-This has all been covered before. Most of the "anti" 1911 stuff has been covered. Modern polymer framed guns benefit from:
Higher capacity
Lighter
Cheaper
easier/simpler to maintain
Still fairly easy to shoot well
-"its all about shot placement"? I submit its not. That is only part of the equation, a big part, but just a part. If that were true, why are people not carrying 8 shot 9mm's or Ruger MKII ?
no where have I seen or read anyone proffer, that a high capacity gun, negates marksmanship or the need to train to make good solid hits.
A higher capacity gun, simply enables me to engage more adversaries if needed. If I'm in a gunfight, I'm already on the wrong side of the "statistics", why would I now, start counting on them to be in my favor?
I think the question shouldn't be "why not?" But, rather WHY?
Bob
PS: All that applies to revolvers also, except they are generally harder to shoot well and reload fast.
QuietShootr
07-28-11, 21:02
Because I want to be able to do this
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/img_0852.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/261d1d2a.jpg
to the guy trying to beat me to death more than seven times.
(yes that is me in the picture. Winchester Ranger SXT 127gr out of a Glock 19 from a foot away)
Ah. My 9mm carry round of choice (assuming you're talking about RA9TA 127gr +P+).
If you don't mind talking about it a little, (I actually think I remember you - aren't you the guy whose buddy finger****ed your gun and shot you from behind?) were you in any way incapacitated from that hit?
misanthropist
07-28-11, 21:45
Is it true that most civi encounters average 3 shots fired against the BG's??
I remember reading some fbi factoid about this some time ago (mabey cooper:):rolleyes:)and seems reasonable for us mortals..."Oh no", soil pants (bang-bang-bang) dead or running for cover??
According to Hackathorn:
a) statistics are not kept very well regarding civilian defensive shootings
b) the number he gave me was 1-3 BUT:
c) that number refers to defensive SHOOTINGS (only one gun) not gunfights (more than one shooter).
For every gun fight in the US, there are 9 shootings.
According to Mr. Hackathorn, civilian gunfights typically go to slidelock.
Six Feet Under
07-28-11, 21:53
Ah. My 9mm carry round of choice (assuming you're talking about RA9TA 127gr +P+).
If you don't mind talking about it a little, (I actually think I remember you - aren't you the guy whose buddy finger****ed your gun and shot you from behind?) were you in any way incapacitated from that hit?
I am indeed talking about RA9TA. Have no fear, it works. The rest of my post is going to be a bit of a book, I hope everyone that reads it finds it worth their time.
The picture of my arm with the entry and exit wound as well as the stitches was taken three weeks after I got shot. It made a pretty nice hole, one of the nurses I had working on me when I first got there said she could probably fit a roll of quarters in it.
Yes, that is what happened. I know people will assume the worst, so I'll give a little background. I had known this kid for three years when he shot me, we'd gone shooting together at least once a week for the past six months and each put 100 rounds apiece through that very gun the DAY BEFORE he shot me... so I don't want to hear any bull about how "he wasn't familiar with it", or "he wasn't trained", or anything else... I had never seen anything unsafe from this kid, hence why I trusted him. Obviously, that was a mistake I don't intend to repeat, ever. I doubt I will catch flak here, as people seem to be a little more mature than other places, but please, I don't need a lecture from the internet screen name with a hard-on for teaching people lessons they've already learned. Just throwing that out there for anybody who's thinking about it.
The shooting happened on November 28, 2009. We had just gone to get something to eat and came back to my house to list our paintball stuff on a forum to sell it when the shit hit the fan. The gun was in a case on my bed (had just turned 20 the month before so I didn't have a CWP and thus had to keep it securely encased in my car in order to carry it). He got it out when I was away from the desk, knowing it was loaded and cleared it. When he was done looking at whatever he looked at, I loaded it back up and went to put it away but got distracted by a message that popped up on my computer screen. I set the gun down, he came back in and unbeknownst to me, picked it up. Had I known he picked it up, I would have said, "hey I loaded that so unload it before you move it" and probably avoided the entire situation and resulting loss (something I'm still pissed over).
As for being incapacitated, did you mean immediately or have I lost anything as far as use of the limb? If the former, yes and no. I immediately got up and ran out of the room as soon as I realized what happened, and went in the kitchen to look in the mirror. That gun with that ammunition in my particular bedroom sounded a lot like my 870 does with 00 buckshot outside, so I freaked as that was the kind of carnage I was associating with what I just heard. Why, I don't know, because I saw the gun in his hand when I turned around, it just didn't register. Everything was going a thousand miles an hour, and yet creeping along at the speed of snail. Anybody who's experienced a similar incident knows what I'm talking about.
Looked in the mirror in the kitchen, saw there were "only" two holes in my arm (my own thoughts were "there's only two holes, thank God, I can deal with this, it's not a bloody stump") and sat down at the kitchen table. He dialed 911, put pressure on the entry and exit hole, and we waited for EMS and sheriff's deputies. Of course, I just HAD to know the Sergeant working the zone I live in, he made a little fun of me and so did the deputy (he kind of knew me or had seen me around I suppose). They airlifted me to Tampa General where I had surgery the next morning (took 5 1/2 hours), put in 17 screws and two steel plates, spent two more days recovering there and then came home. As far as pain, it wasn't that bad until I tried to climb down out of my bed/gurney to pee in a jug they brought me. It was just high enough off the floor that I couldn't sit on the edge and stand up, I had to slide down off of it. Climbing back into it was a real joy as well. That was the only time I cried until the last day I was in there and a nurse yanked the wound drain tubing out of the exit wound because it had adhered to the inside of the wound track. Worst pain I've ever experienced in my life. It took several shots of Dilaudid and doses of Percocets and Tylenol to make the ensuing headache be bearable.
The surgeons told me I would never be able to do push-ups, lift weights, or be a cop. The most I would ever get back out of my arm was 80% of anything (arm strength, bicep strength, feeling, range of motion, everything) and that was an absolute best-case scenario. I'd be under a doctor's care for two years and probably have multiple surgeries following the original to correct any future issues. I was half way through a 10 month academy at the time of my shooting, that's all I have ever wanted to do in life, and of course this was a HUGE blow. I told him thanks, but his opinion didn't particularly matter after I left his hospital.
This is where I had to learn to sack up and deal with shit. I was completely off all painkillers (including OTC stuff) eight days after my shooting. Took me seven days to be able to take a dump because of all the medicine they had me on (and yes, it hurt, bad). It took me 2 weeks to be able to tie my shoes due to swelling and immobility (this was still with the splint on at this point, the doctors left it in there to let it heal as best they could before moving the joint any). Six weeks to cross my arms at my chest. Took six months to be able to wipe my ass and not cry from the pressure it put on my elbow joint. Think about how little effort it takes to wipe your ass... six friggin' months.
I did ten months of therapy, starting mid-January 2010 and ending right before Halloween in October 2010. I spent the afternoon of my 21st birthday in the rehab center. Oddly enough, I got to the point where I got some kind of sick enjoyment out of going there, and stopped taking pain medicine about June or July so I could test my mental ability to block it out. The therapy consisted of a warm-up of the affected area with a heating pad for 10 minutes, then curls with a dumbbell of various weights (finally got up to 10 pounds right about the end of the sessions in October), some hand-strength exercises, loosening up the joint on a mechanical bike (just working the handlebars, no pedals), and then the rest of the time - about 35 minutes - was spent with the therapist putting both of his hands on my wrist, nearly laying on my shoulder, and pushing the two apart, tearing the scar tissue and tendons slowly to let them increase the range of motion.
I had a second surgery on December 2, 2010 (the day I got out of the hospital the first time) to remove three of the screws they put in my arm as they were backing out and causing me some issues. The three are the ones circled in red:
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/IMG_0879.jpg
(Those fragments you see are pieces of my humerus)
Fast forward to February 2011. I started back at the gym, slowly working my way up weight-wise. In May, I did eight full male-style pushups, perfect form, all the way to the ground. Last week, I passed the PAT test (obstacle course) in 7:44, which was 56 seconds faster than my time of 8:40 when I was in the academy in 2009. That score was more than good enough to get me accepted back in; I ordered uniforms three days ago, go for fingerprinting Tuesday and start school August 22nd.
As for nowadays, I have about 85-90% range of motion in the joint itself. The only numbness present is on top of my right forearm and that only came to be when I took Jack3d as a pre-workout supplement; I stopped using it within a few days of realizing the numbness was present, but the feeling hasn't come back or gotten any worse. I don't notice it most days. I have full grip strength (84lb left hand, 82lb right hand at time of last therapy appointment nine months ago) and I have put up 110lb (combined) doing dumbbell presses with ten reps per set. I can bench 135 with some regularity as well. Most of my triceps workouts I can do between 35 on a bad day and 50 on a good day.
Rarely have any lasting pain or weakness, only occasionally does the weather affect me, but boy do I know it beforehand! Last time we had a big storm coming I knew it three days before it happened without watching the weather channel. :(
So, extremely long story short: I have had to overcome a great deal of shit with this arm, and hated most of the last two years, but I've accomplished the first of my big goals, which was proving everyone wrong and getting back into the academy. The next goal is finishing it out, and the third is getting hired. Hopefully an agency won't hold this injury against me because it doesn't affect me day to day, but I know it IS most likely going to be seen as a liability. The night I passed that obstacle course and cut off nearly a full minute was the first time I had gone to sleep happy since the night before I got shot... literally.
Its odd how life can change so drastically in a split second, I'm glad you're doing well.
I am indeed talking about RA9TA. Have no fear, it works. The rest of my post is going to be a bit of a book, I hope everyone that reads it finds it worth their time.
The picture of my arm with the entry and exit wound as well as the stitches was taken three weeks after I got shot. It made a pretty nice hole, one of the nurses I had working on me when I first got there said she could probably fit a roll of quarters in it.
Yes, that is what happened. I know people will assume the worst, so I'll give a little background. I had known this kid for three years when he shot me, we'd gone shooting together at least once a week for the past six months and each put 100 rounds apiece through that very gun the DAY BEFORE he shot me... so I don't want to hear any bull about how "he wasn't familiar with it", or "he wasn't trained", or anything else... I had never seen anything unsafe from this kid, hence why I trusted him. Obviously, that was a mistake I don't intend to repeat, ever. I doubt I will catch flak here, as people seem to be a little more mature than other places, but please, I don't need a lecture from the internet screen name with a hard-on for teaching people lessons they've already learned. Just throwing that out there for anybody who's thinking about it.
The shooting happened on November 28, 2009. We had just gone to get something to eat and came back to my house to list our paintball stuff on a forum to sell it when the shit hit the fan. The gun was in a case on my bed (had just turned 20 the month before so I didn't have a CWP and thus had to keep it securely encased in my car in order to carry it). He got it out when I was away from the desk, knowing it was loaded and cleared it. When he was done looking at whatever he looked at, I loaded it back up and went to put it away but got distracted by a message that popped up on my computer screen. I set the gun down, he came back in and unbeknownst to me, picked it up. Had I known he picked it up, I would have said, "hey I loaded that so unload it before you move it" and probably avoided the entire situation and resulting loss (something I'm still pissed over).
As for being incapacitated, did you mean immediately or have I lost anything as far as use of the limb? If the former, yes and no. I immediately got up and ran out of the room as soon as I realized what happened, and went in the kitchen to look in the mirror. That gun with that ammunition in my particular bedroom sounded a lot like my 870 does with 00 buckshot outside, so I freaked as that was the kind of carnage I was associating with what I just heard. Why, I don't know, because I saw the gun in his hand when I turned around, it just didn't register. Everything was going a thousand miles an hour, and yet creeping along at the speed of snail. Anybody who's experienced a similar incident knows what I'm talking about.
Looked in the mirror in the kitchen, saw there were "only" two holes in my arm (my own thoughts were "there's only two holes, thank God, I can deal with this, it's not a bloody stump") and sat down at the kitchen table. He dialed 911, put pressure on the entry and exit hole, and we waited for EMS and sheriff's deputies. Of course, I just HAD to know the Sergeant working the zone I live in, he made a little fun of me and so did the deputy (he kind of knew me or had seen me around I suppose). They airlifted me to Tampa General where I had surgery the next morning (took 5 1/2 hours), put in 17 screws and two steel plates, spent two more days recovering there and then came home. As far as pain, it wasn't that bad until I tried to climb down out of my bed/gurney to pee in a jug they brought me. It was just high enough off the floor that I couldn't sit on the edge and stand up, I had to slide down off of it. Climbing back into it was a real joy as well. That was the only time I cried until the last day I was in there and a nurse yanked the wound drain tubing out of the exit wound because it had adhered to the inside of the wound track. Worst pain I've ever experienced in my life. It took several shots of Dilaudid and doses of Percocets and Tylenol to make the ensuing headache be bearable.
The surgeons told me I would never be able to do push-ups, lift weights, or be a cop. The most I would ever get back out of my arm was 80% of anything (arm strength, bicep strength, feeling, range of motion, everything) and that was an absolute best-case scenario. I'd be under a doctor's care for two years and probably have multiple surgeries following the original to correct any future issues. I was half way through a 10 month academy at the time of my shooting, that's all I have ever wanted to do in life, and of course this was a HUGE blow. I told him thanks, but his opinion didn't particularly matter after I left his hospital.
This is where I had to learn to sack up and deal with shit. I was completely off all painkillers (including OTC stuff) eight days after my shooting. Took me seven days to be able to take a dump because of all the medicine they had me on (and yes, it hurt, bad). It took me 2 weeks to be able to tie my shoes due to swelling and immobility (this was still with the splint on at this point, the doctors left it in there to let it heal as best they could before moving the joint any). Six weeks to cross my arms at my chest. Took six months to be able to wipe my ass and not cry from the pressure it put on my elbow joint. Think about how little effort it takes to wipe your ass... six friggin' months.
I did ten months of therapy, starting mid-January 2010 and ending right before Halloween in October 2010. I spent the afternoon of my 21st birthday in the rehab center. Oddly enough, I got to the point where I got some kind of sick enjoyment out of going there, and stopped taking pain medicine about June or July so I could test my mental ability to block it out. The therapy consisted of a warm-up of the affected area with a heating pad for 10 minutes, then curls with a dumbbell of various weights (finally got up to 10 pounds right about the end of the sessions in October), some hand-strength exercises, loosening up the joint on a mechanical bike (just working the handlebars, no pedals), and then the rest of the time - about 35 minutes - was spent with the therapist putting both of his hands on my wrist, nearly laying on my shoulder, and pushing the two apart, tearing the scar tissue and tendons slowly to let them increase the range of motion.
I had a second surgery on December 2, 2010 (the day I got out of the hospital the first time) to remove three of the screws they put in my arm as they were backing out and causing me some issues. The three are the ones circled in red:
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/IMG_0879.jpg
(Those fragments you see are pieces of my humerus)
Fast forward to February 2011. I started back at the gym, slowly working my way up weight-wise. In May, I did eight full male-style pushups, perfect form, all the way to the ground. Last week, I passed the PAT test (obstacle course) in 7:44, which was 56 seconds faster than my time of 8:40 when I was in the academy in 2009. That score was more than good enough to get me accepted back in; I ordered uniforms three days ago, go for fingerprinting Tuesday and start school August 22nd.
As for nowadays, I have about 85-90% range of motion in the joint itself. The only numbness present is on top of my right forearm and that only came to be when I took Jack3d as a pre-workout supplement; I stopped using it within a few days of realizing the numbness was present, but the feeling hasn't come back or gotten any worse. I don't notice it most days. I have full grip strength (84lb left hand, 82lb right hand at time of last therapy appointment nine months ago) and I have put up 110lb (combined) doing dumbbell presses with ten reps per set. I can bench 135 with some regularity as well. Most of my triceps workouts I can do between 35 on a bad day and 50 on a good day.
Rarely have any lasting pain or weakness, only occasionally does the weather affect me, but boy do I know it beforehand! Last time we had a big storm coming I knew it three days before it happened without watching the weather channel. :(
So, extremely long story short: I have had to overcome a great deal of shit with this arm, and hated most of the last two years, but I've accomplished the first of my big goals, which was proving everyone wrong and getting back into the academy. The next goal is finishing it out, and the third is getting hired. Hopefully an agency won't hold this injury against me because it doesn't affect me day to day, but I know it IS most likely going to be seen as a liability. The night I passed that obstacle course and cut off nearly a full minute was the first time I had gone to sleep happy since the night before I got shot... literally.
You and I communicated some time ago about your injuries. I went through a similar injury as a police officer and I know how hard you're working. They told me I was finished and they were wrong. Keep it up and don't give up.
Six Feet Under
07-28-11, 23:02
Its odd how life can change so drastically in a split second, I'm glad you're doing well.
Thank you. This experience showed me how precious what you have in life really is, because it can be stripped away from you without a moment's notice. I still wish it hadn't happened, and fairly often think back to the last few minutes of "normalcy"... but it is what it is, and I can't change it. I've matured a lot because of it, too.
You and I communicated some time ago about your injuries. I went through a similar injury as a police officer and I know how hard you're working. They told me I was finished and they were wrong. Keep it up and don't give up.
The only way I'm leaving that school other than via the graduation stage is on a stretcher or in a bag. I wasn't 100% sure I'd be able to complete that test, honestly, the two weeks prior to it were filled with lots of stomach trouble and Maalox/Pepto use. Two days before it was scheduled, all the sudden I felt at peace with it, and I quit worrying. To have improved that much on something I wasn't sure I could complete at all was a huge morale boost. Over the last year and a half, I've had friends who work here and at other agencies give me t-shirts with their department logos on them, pairs of handcuffs, patches, etc. to look at as a reminder of what I was working towards.
It still hasn't really sunk in that I did what I set out to do... but my mood sure has improved a LOT. :)
What do you use? Why?
Before I say anything else, I'd like to stipulate up front that the Glock and its relatives are the current pinnacle of handgun evolution. Anyone who thinks they might be involved in a gunfight and doesn't have the option of staying the hell away or bringing a long gun should bring one of these and a few spare magazines.
But what do *I* carry? A Smith and Wesson J-frame. There's a 642 in my right front pocket as I type this; there's a 640-1 with XS sights in my night stand drawer, and there's a pair of Model 60s, another 640, a 649, and even a couple of Model 63s scattered here and there in my home.
Why? My choice certainly isn't based on which handgun is most effective or efficient (again, I'd be toting a modern polymer gun). My choice is based solely on a realization of my own shortcomings.
First, I'm comfortable with J-frame snubbies. I fired my first one almost 40 years ago, and I've loved them ever since.
I don't like to "dress around my gun." I can--and do--carry a J-frame regardless of whether I'm wearing shorts and T-shirt or a suit. I don't *want* to buy my pants a size too big, and I look silly in Hawaiian shirts.
I'm not confident in my ability to clear a malfunction under stress. I've seen people thrust into dangerous situations go into "mental vapor lock" for agonizing seconds before their brain kicked into gear. On the other hand, I'm pretty confident that in the unlikely event my revolver went "click" instead of "bang" I'd instinctively--and immediately--do the right thing and pull the trigger again; it's the natural reaction. (I'm simply not willing to put in the hundreds of hours of malfunction drills that would be necessary for me to perform immediate action on a semi-auto with nearly equal facility. Based on the extremely low likelihood that I'll ever need to draw--much less use--my handgun it's just not a wise use of that most precious of all resources...time.)
There are other reasons, but to avoid turning this into a treatise, suffice it to say that based on my lifestyle, the level of risk I face during my day-to-day life, and my own level of competence a small revolver is the correct choice for me.
OTOH, I'm not a *complete* moron. I do own a "trunk AR," and when my son recently asked for some handgun advice I steered *him* toward an M&P9.
Just my two cents.
As a 1911 fan, I will advise that it really isn't the best option. Simply for the reason that they are not as reliable as a lot of the polymer pistols out there, the good ones are very expensive and the round capacity is very limited.
If you want to think of it this way, CCW holders are typically alone and never going to get "back up." So what you have on you (as far as ammo) is it. So for me, the more ammo the better.
If you live in a VERY low crime area and don't think that you will even need a gun, then a 1911 or revolver is just fine I think. If you are like the rest of us though, it is better have it and not need it and than to need it and not have it. ;)
C4
I think this sums it up best.
As far as having less rounds and being cognizant of how many rounds you're expending... I'm going to be honest with you.
Last time I shot a gun under pressure at a moving target that I really really wanted to die was a swinger target on the last stage of a shooting match about two weeks ago. I can't tell you how many rounds I fired, but in the first pass/swing of the target after stomping the platform, I managed to hit the target 4 times. I had left the last swinger target "alive" earlier in the day. I can't tell you how many times I fired.
So for me, it was one of those things "Don't mess around, prep your mind and when that target comes into view, destroy it." I was told I shot 6 times, that was also shooting an SGL21.
I say that to say this, when you're scared (I wasn't scared, but it was my first time shooting a swing target, and I definitely wanted to get enough rounds on target, I say that to say simply, when your heart rates up and you're in a higher pressure environment, things like this happen), when your life is on the line, don't ration out bullets like a stingy accountant. Spend like you don't have a care in the world. Which is, shoot until the target is down/incapacitated.
Because by the time your pulling a gun and shooting, your life is on the line.
As for 1911's? I Carry one, it's a Dan Wesson CBOB, it was about $950 when I bought it, they got for something like 1300-1400. I'd say Dan Wesson is production quality, not a semi-custom (Though their prices are approaching it these days, I would not buy one for what they're asking) good 1911.
It has rust issues (Even being Stainless Steel), it has magazine issues (1911 magazines are volatile), it had a broken hammer (that DW took care of), it's heavier, it has less capacity, it's harder to manage the recoil (I don't think .45 ACP recoil is terrible, but truthfully if you can run a .45 well you can run a 9mm exceptionally), it requires more maintenance, and it is more of an artisan produced weapon, meaning things need to be fitted, etc.
I need something I can sweat on, beat on, replace things cheaply, easily, is controllable, reliable, durable and easy to maintain.
You can find all of those things in Glocks and M&P's.
Now if Grant would quit posting sage wisdom and get some more M&P 9mm's with Thumb safeties in, I could tell you exactly what I replaced that CBOB with. :D
RiflemanBobcat
07-29-11, 04:17
Several years back, I was fortunate enough to speak with Col. Cooper while we sat in his "gun room". On the bench - in plain sight (i.e., not locked away like so many of his other weapons) was a Glock 17. No - the conversation never got around to that topic:)
john
It appears I stand gratefully corrected.
Thank you.
Yes, that is what happened. I know people will assume the worst, so I'll give a little background. I had known this kid for three years when he shot me, we'd gone shooting together at least once a week for the past six months and each put 100 rounds apiece through that very gun the DAY BEFORE he shot me... so I don't want to hear any bull about how "he wasn't familiar with it", or "he wasn't trained", or anything else... I had never seen anything unsafe from this kid, hence why I trusted him. Obviously, that was a mistake I don't intend to repeat, ever. I doubt I will catch flak here, as people seem to be a little more mature than other places, but please, I don't need a lecture from the internet screen name with a hard-on for teaching people lessons they've already learned.
Crazy story...not that it matters but just curious as to the reaction of the kid. Bad accidents happen, but i'm not sure how long it would take me to get over shooting a buddy.
I think I would rather deal with the pain you went through than the lifetime of guilt I would feel for causing it.
Now if Grant would quit posting sage wisdom and get some more M&P 9mm's with Thumb safeties in, I could tell you exactly what I replaced that CBOB with. :D
LOL, these are in stock. ;)
C4
Does anybody else get sick of these threads?
I don’t see anyone stating a custom 1911 is the best option for a Mil/LE unit. Obviously the added hassle/expense of maintenance for a fleet of 1911’s in this day and age might not be the best idea. Hint: This has nothing to do with what an individual should do.
For a private firearms owner the story is completely different. That’s IF he is a true 1911 fan, educated/trained in proper PM maintenance (Spring change intervals, proper lubrication, spends the time & effort to find a mag/ammo combo that is stone reliable in their 1911, etc).
IF you meet the above criteria your proven stone reliable semi-custom/custom 1911 will do just fine. Not all of us are hunting Al-Qaeda in our back yards, or think our local Wal-Mart is a war zone.
Hint: The term “1911” is like saying “Airplane” - it’s way too vague to truly compare brand xxx vs. polymer that. Simply saying “1911” could mean a high-end Springfield Armory Professional all the way down to a $300 worn-out Mil-Spec. Could you accurately compare an F-22 to a 747 merely because they are both an “Airplane” – Obviously not. There are too many variables for even a remotely accurate discussion.
Does anybody else get sick of these threads?
Not to mention the fact that the OP came here, laid the turd in the punchbowl, and watched everyone else drink the punch. ;)
Does anybody else get sick of these threads?
I don’t see anyone stating a custom 1911 is the best option for a Mil/LE unit. Obviously the added hassle/expense of maintenance for a fleet of 1911’s in this day and age might not be the best idea. Hint: This has nothing to do with what an individual should do.
For a private firearms owner the story is completely different. That’s IF he is a true 1911 fan, educated/trained in proper PM maintenance (Spring change intervals, proper lubrication, spends the time & effort to find a mag/ammo combo that is stone reliable in their 1911, etc).
IF you meet the above criteria your proven stone reliable semi-custom/custom 1911 will do just fine. Not all of us are hunting Al-Qaeda in our back yards, or think our local Wal-Mart is a war zone.
Hint: The term “1911” is like saying “Airplane” - it’s way too vague to truly compare brand xxx vs. polymer that. Simply saying “1911” could mean a high-end Springfield Armory Professional all the way down to a $300 worn-out Mil-Spec. Could you accurately compare an F-22 to a 747 merely because they are both an “Airplane” – Obviously not. There are too many variables for even a remotely accurate discussion.
All valid points Paul. The part in black though is the problem though. Most people treat their guns like they treat their lawn mower.
As you know, I run a WC CQB. Great gun and has seen more classes than I can count. Was warming up for the August 1911 class and had a feedway jam. Hadn't seen one of those in a polymer pistol is forever. :D
C4
All valid points Paul. The part in black though is the problem though. Most people treat their guns like they treat their lawn mower.
They also don't meet my listed critia.
That means nothing to the educated 1911 fan who has a proven stone reliable 1911 on his hip.
Agreed that this is become a little played out but I have to throw one more question out there in regards to the discussion.
In all the documented gunfights thru the years has there ever been one where having "too much" ammunition in the gun was THE decisive factor in the good guy losing the fight?
For a private firearms owner the story is completely different. That’s IF he is a true 1911 fan, educated/trained in proper PM maintenance (Spring change intervals, proper lubrication, spends the time & effort to find a mag/ammo combo that is stone reliable in their 1911, etc).
I'd hazard a guess and say that the percentage of 1911 owners who are aware of these points is in the single digits. Couple it with the fact that most people, even a fair portion of the membership here, likely does not train in a serious manner in order to learn the requisite skills to not only shoot smart and shoot well, but also maintain their gear correctly and those two things make it at least worthwhile for me to have the discussion. Even if the horse has been beaten to death and the punch that Rob spoke of tastes like crap. I forwarded this thread to a guy who was about to lay down a substantial amount of cash on a 1911. After reading this and a few other select threads, he's getting an M&P and using the cash he saved to buy gear and take a course. Not Earth shattering, but beneficial nonetheless.
How ya doin' sixfeetunder?
Didn't your buddy shoot you with your gun?
Glad it wasn't worse.
They also don't meet my listed critia.
That means nothing to the educated 1911 fan who has a proven stone reliable 1911 on his hip.
These people are typically the majority of 1911 shooters I think.
C4
These people are typically the majority of 1911 shooters I think.
C4
The lawn mower types or the educated ones?
Does anybody else get sick of these threads?
I don’t see anyone stating a custom 1911 is the best option for a Mil/LE unit. Obviously the added hassle/expense of maintenance for a fleet of 1911’s in this day and age might not be the best idea. Hint: This has nothing to do with what an individual should do.
For a private firearms owner the story is completely different. That’s IF he is a true 1911 fan, educated/trained in proper PM maintenance (Spring change intervals, proper lubrication, spends the time & effort to find a mag/ammo combo that is stone reliable in their 1911, etc).
IF you meet the above criteria your proven stone reliable semi-custom/custom 1911 will do just fine. Not all of us are hunting Al-Qaeda in our back yards, or think our local Wal-Mart is a war zone.
Hint: The term “1911” is like saying “Airplane” - it’s way too vague to truly compare brand xxx vs. polymer that. Simply saying “1911” could mean a high-end Springfield Armory Professional all the way down to a $300 worn-out Mil-Spec. Could you accurately compare an F-22 to a 747 merely because they are both an “Airplane” – Obviously not. There are too many variables for even a remotely accurate discussion.
Paul,
Good points, but, to me the question has become what does a "1911" bring to the table? This is of course, assuming the aforementioned stone reliable 1911.
For me the answer become, not much. Sure you/I "shoot it better/best", but the pluses fall off pretty quick after that.
I find it funny if not a bit ironic or hypocritical that we have loads of threads and posters declaring "just shoot the gun" when it comes to the carbine, you don't need a match trigger, light, RDS, or all the other "do-dads, gadgets, geegaws, and tactikewl stuff" but, and its often the same people, then declare its perfectly acceptable to spend 15-2500 bux on a handgun, because they "shoot it best":confused:
Why not buy that $500 dollar G17 or M&P, and $2K worth of ammo, I wonder what you'll "shoot best" now.
No one is saying your naked against the forces of evil with a 1911, but, in the same vein you are no better armed with one, either.
And really, its just the "1911 guys" that get my ire up.
As for beaten to death topics, try 20 plus pages on returning to GI magazines:D
Bob
Because 15 > 6. And in the alternative, 15 > 7.
When dealing with marginally effective manstoppers like handgun bullets, more is more, less is less, and too much is not enough.
Quoted for Emphasis.
Consider the alternative: Does a revolver or 1911 grant you nearly twice an advantage in terms of accuracy or reliability?
This should of stopped on page 1.
I know everyone loves their glock 19s, but you know they make a model 21 as well is 45 is your thing. (M&P also comes in 45, as does HK..)
but you know they make a model 21 as well is 45 is your thing.
Right. Concealing it is the rub.
I find myself caring less and less about a .45
At best its only marginally better then a good 9mm or .40. Speaking of which, the .40 settled this debate. I realize its counter to most opinions, but I am a fan of the .40
Bob
Matt Edwards
07-29-11, 12:22
We need to get over the romance of the 1911 and get on to the business of shooting smelly bad guys in the face with a modern auto.
Bob,
I think he is making a play on words conserning a particular instructor who used a 1911 up until around 3-4 years ago.
Bob,
I think he is making a play on words conserning a particular instructor who used a 1911 up until around 3-4 years ago.
Yea, I see what he did;)
Bob
Six Feet Under
07-29-11, 12:51
Crazy story...not that it matters but just curious as to the reaction of the kid. Bad accidents happen, but i'm not sure how long it would take me to get over shooting a buddy.
I think I would rather deal with the pain you went through than the lifetime of guilt I would feel for causing it.
That's the thing, he's such an asshole I'm not sure if he really feels bad about it or not... Hopefully it ruined his life, because he deserves it. That is the one person I honestly have NO good feelings towards anymore. He told me it wasn't his fault, because it was my gun and it was loaded, and refused to apologize.
Last time I saw him was yesterday at the 4-way stop near my house, and he looked rather depressed when he saw me. Some days, like today, I'm pretty indifferent, but he will never man up and apologize so it doesn't bother me to feel that way.
How ya doin' sixfeetunder?
Didn't your buddy shoot you with your gun?
Glad it wasn't worse.
Doin' pretty good, all the details are in that book I wrote a few posts back if you wanna read them. :)
Right. Concealing it is the rub.
Concealing a G21 is actually not all that difficult a feat-I'm not large, (5'8", 195 lbs) and I've done it for years with a Blade-Tech IWB.
I will say that there's a significant WEIGHT difference between carrying a G21 with a spare magazine and, say , a G19 with a spare magazine...
Best, Jon
The lawn mower types or the educated ones?
Lawn mower types.
C4
misanthropist
07-29-11, 14:00
Does anybody else get sick of these threads?
I don’t see anyone stating a custom 1911 is the best option for a Mil/LE unit. Obviously the added hassle/expense of maintenance for a fleet of 1911’s in this day and age might not be the best idea. Hint: This has nothing to do with what an individual should do.
For a private firearms owner the story is completely different. That’s IF he is a true 1911 fan, educated/trained in proper PM maintenance (Spring change intervals, proper lubrication, spends the time & effort to find a mag/ammo combo that is stone reliable in their 1911, etc).
IF you meet the above criteria your proven stone reliable semi-custom/custom 1911 will do just fine. Not all of us are hunting Al-Qaeda in our back yards, or think our local Wal-Mart is a war zone.
Hint: The term “1911” is like saying “Airplane” - it’s way too vague to truly compare brand xxx vs. polymer that. Simply saying “1911” could mean a high-end Springfield Armory Professional all the way down to a $300 worn-out Mil-Spec. Could you accurately compare an F-22 to a 747 merely because they are both an “Airplane” – Obviously not. There are too many variables for even a remotely accurate discussion.
I think this is all absolutely true, but part of the reason for the thread direction might be the phrasing of the original question: why NOT a 1911?
Well, the reasons why not are all pretty much in here. None of the reason FOR are really mentioned, but then the thread title was really asking for reasons against, and that kind of gets your brain going that way
If the original question had been, "compare and contrast the use of 9mm Glocks and 1911s for CCW pieces" you might get more of a balanced look at the respective reasons people might choose one or the other.
Paul,
Good points, but, to me the question has become what does a "1911" bring to the table? This is of course, assuming the aforementioned stone reliable 1911.
For me the answer become, not much. Sure you/I "shoot it better/best", but the pluses fall off pretty quick after that.
I find it funny if not a bit ironic or hypocritical that we have loads of threads and posters declaring "just shoot the gun" when it comes to the carbine, you don't need a match trigger, light, RDS, or all the other "do-dads, gadgets, geegaws, and tactikewl stuff" but, and its often the same people, then declare its perfectly acceptable to spend 15-2500 bux on a handgun, because they "shoot it best":confused:
Why not buy that $500 dollar G17 or M&P, and $2K worth of ammo, I wonder what you'll "shoot best" now.
No one is saying your naked against the forces of evil with a 1911, but, in the same vein you are no better armed with one, either.
And really, its just the "1911 guys" that get my ire up.
As for beaten to death topics, try 20 plus pages on returning to GI magazines:D
Bob
Hi Bob,
It's simple, because the shooter wants to shoot a 1911.
They may like the looks (I do), world's finest trigger, inherent mechanical accuracy, world famous ergonomics, manual safety, whatever. If the gun has proven itself reliable who cares?
High volume shooting 1911’s might be a PIA for a Mil unit or LE department but what does that have to do with a single switched-on 1911 owner? Na-Da.
Hell, every 1911 I have ever owned was more reliable than my 9mm M&P’s. :D
Lawn mower types.
C4
Agree totally. Ask me about the recruits who showed up to academy a few years back with Rock Island Armory 1911s. They were allowed to purchase their own weapons per their agency policy and the two of them bought them and got their command to sign off on them. That situation worked itself out, as neither of them graduated, but there was a lot of back and forth between us and their agency.
Paul,
I hear ya, and me and Matt have had the same discussion, most of it's drawbacks may not apply, especially when you have 4, well now 3, of them in the safe, and the money has been spent.
But, as noted, the OP asked why not, and I'll ask why? This is why we are here to discuss stuff.
But then the 1911 fanboys, start in, and accuse you of "bashing" their religion, and well, it get's ugly.
Carry what you want, as they say, but, don't act like its the only worthwhile choice.
Bob
...In all the documented gunfights thru the years has there ever been one where having "too much" ammunition in the gun was THE decisive factor in the good guy losing the fight?
I'm not a big fan of this argument; it reminds me of the "my .22 is an effective self-defense gun, as I've never found anybody who'd volunteer to let me shoot them with it."
Yes. All things being equal, more ammo is better than less ammo.
But all things aren't equal. Capacity comes at a cost, and it's up to the individual to determine whether that cost is a minimal one or if it might compel him/her to leave the gun in the safe rather than carrying it with him/her.
I actually like threads like this when people explain their reasoning in detail (and don't resort to name-calling). More often than not, I learn something.
I'm not a big fan of this argument; it reminds me of the "my .22 is an effective self-defense gun, as I've never found anybody who'd volunteer to let me shoot them with it."
Yes. All things being equal, more ammo is better than less ammo.
But all things aren't equal. Capacity comes at a cost, and it's up to the individual to determine whether that cost is a minimal one or if it might compel him/her to leave the gun in the safe rather than carrying it with him/her.
I actually like threads like this when people explain their reasoning in detail (and don't resort to name-calling). More often than not, I learn something.
I think the reason for that is many of the posters have either owned 1911's, own 1911's, think they are cool or appreciate their history.
I am a 1911 fan. It is just a nice feeling, very accurate weapon. It does have MANY drawbacks though (many of which I did not fully grasp until I received more and more training and got into shoot houses).
C4
C4IGrant:
Could you be specific as to what problems you have had with 1911's in shoot houses?
I have never shot in a shoot house and while I have been shooting for a long time formal training is very new to me.
As for the question of "why not a 1911?" for me it comes down to one thing.
Hits on target. If you put a glock, berretta 92, smith and wesson m&p, 1911 and any other guns your can think of on a table in front of me, I am going to choose the one I shoot best with. To me the history and "cool" factor aren't even worth considering. Its about what gun I preform best with.
C4IGrant:
Could you be specific as to what problems you have had with 1911's in shoot houses?
Sure. It is called RUNNING OUT OF AMMO/HAVING TO DO A MAG CHANGE IN THE MIDDLE OF A GUN FIGHT. :D
C4
Sure. It is called RUNNING OUT OF AMMO/HAVING TO DO A MAG CHANGE IN THE MIDDLE OF A GUN FIGHT. :D
C4
Ok, I hear ya.
I had thought you ment problems with the "1911 platform", design issues and such.
Ok, I hear ya.
I had thought you ment problems with the "1911 platform", design issues and such.
Ya, design issue, it only holds about 7 or 8 rounds. ;)
C4
I think the reason for that is many of the posters have either owned 1911's, own 1911's, think they are cool or appreciate their history.
I am a 1911 fan. It is just a nice feeling, very accurate weapon. It does have MANY drawbacks though (many of which I did not fully grasp until I received more and more training and got into shoot houses).
C4
This was also the turning point for me, you spend enough time in a shoot house, or any training course that involves multiple targets and the capacity issue becomes more and more relevant.
Now I would like to state that I am not bashing the 1911, God knows that I have spent a stupid amount of money on them over the years, up to and including taking full build classes from places like C&S, so my love affair runs deep and will probably continue along that path simply because I like it.
But in my humble nobody opinion, I still believe that modern designs like the G-lock, M&P,and HK have to many advantages over a 1911 or revolver, the most notable being capacity, reliability and weight.
As much as I love the 1911, I choose to carry a Glock.
Does anybody else get sick of these threads?
I don’t see anyone stating a custom 1911 is the best option for a Mil/LE unit. Obviously the added hassle/expense of maintenance for a fleet of 1911’s in this day and age might not be the best idea. Hint: This has nothing to do with what an individual should do.
For a private firearms owner the story is completely different. That’s IF he is a true 1911 fan, educated/trained in proper PM maintenance (Spring change intervals, proper lubrication, spends the time & effort to find a mag/ammo combo that is stone reliable in their 1911, etc).
IF you meet the above criteria your proven stone reliable semi-custom/custom 1911 will do just fine. Not all of us are hunting Al-Qaeda in our back yards, or think our local Wal-Mart is a war zone.
Hint: The term “1911” is like saying “Airplane” - it’s way too vague to truly compare brand xxx vs. polymer that. Simply saying “1911” could mean a high-end Springfield Armory Professional all the way down to a $300 worn-out Mil-Spec. Could you accurately compare an F-22 to a 747 merely because they are both an “Airplane” – Obviously not. There are too many variables for even a remotely accurate discussion.
I just don't read them if I am not in the mood ^^
Anyhow as I see it, reliability is only part of the puzzle. Sure if its reliable then that is not an issue but there is still cost (increased cost with proper run around), time doing maintenance (increased time), capacity, weight, etc where increase in ergonomics, safety, accuracy, etc might not mean jack considering the relative nature of civilian shootings (not everyone has to head shot a hostage taker across the street).
Of course its a never ending issue where people might as well just go with what they want and be prepared for whats needed and deal with the plus and minus the options give.
If someone can fully utilize their weapon of choice then choice often doesn't matter (a derringer is an example of something hard to justify in my opinion).
Dave James
07-29-11, 19:41
ONe thing I remember Mr.Bryce telling me as a kid,
"If you can find an auot that works all the time, carry it" and this from a man whom swore by the big "N" frame S&W
Mauser KAR98K
07-29-11, 20:36
I've been shooting a 1911 Colt Gold Cup since I was 10 (28 now, do the math). I love it, I run it in the 3-gun in the tactical division, and I am quick in getting out, shooting it and feeding it. It is simply ingrained in me.
But I am heavily moving towards a new polymer hi-cap pistol for carry, practicality, and matches. 7 rounds gets old and runs out quickly, and I hate being close to dead last in the matches.
Hunter Rose
07-29-11, 21:21
But I am heavily moving towards a new polymer hi-cap pistol for carry, practicality, and matches. 7 rounds gets old and runs out quickly, and I hate being close to dead last in the matches.
This was my eye-opener turning point as well. Did matches/a class with the 1911 and did matches/class with a 9mm HK USP. Reloading half as much was a nice thing (I personally shoot 9mm faster and more accurately as well).
1911's are nice, but like I said, I think they're an artisan's weapon. It's only as good as who did the trigger job, beveled the mag well, tuned the extractor, polished the feed ramp.
I'll tell you though, in holding a 1911, I like the serrated trigger that you don't have on a Glock or M&P, I like how that texture grips your finger, IMHO promoted consistency. I like the grip, I like that you can detail strip (and I mean detail strip) the whole thing with a .45 ACP Cartridge.
I like how customizable the gun is, and it truly is, it truly, truly is, you are limited by your imagination.
Stipling like every Glock or M&P? Please, get a 25 LPI Front strap texturing and some VZ grips and you'll be set.
You can change the weights of the guide rod, you can go with a full length, or standard length depending on preference.
Barrel length is also a preference, I went Commander.
You can choose the materials it's made of, lets be honest, a Aluminum framed commander length 1911 with .45 ACP 230 GR HST's will be light enough, and have enough firepower to usually get the job done.
The size and shape of the thumb safety, rail or no rail, endless sight options.
Alot of what shaped my opinion on the M&P9 With a thumbsafety are things I want different from a 1911, but can find in a polymer platform.
I resent the sheer cost of 1911's these days, but I like the platform. It's just the next step in what I like as a carry gun.
I resent H&K's pricing.
I don't think the sun rises and sets on the M&P9, either, I'll be changing the trigger components (or rather, getting Grant to, when I order one... which really, he gets them back in stock at the worst possible time for me financially, could've outright bought it for months :p, but such is life, I'm going to get one), I want to find a "grip" solution (I'm thinking Talon grips cut to fit it or some other kind of decal), because right now it's like grabbing a smooth piece of wood, I need more texture than all the M&P's I've shot and handled, I want different sights immediately, the base plates are too big, I'll be going to compact floor plates.
I don't think the trigger reset is detectable enough so I will be looking into a RAM (When they make it) for the TS models, also I was shooting cheap PMC bronze through an M&P9, and I had it Fail to Extract a shell (The extractor slipped off of it, leaving it in the barrel, known issue with really cheap end 115 gr 9mm, in some M&P's), so the extractor I'll eventually replace it with the Apex Tactical EDM'd extractor.
What you realize very quickly is, that's what I liked about the 1911, is I could change it, and that's exactly what I'm going to do with an M&P9.
Some people are fine being handed something and not desiring more out of it than the stock configuration... I'm not gifted in that way.
Mauser KAR98K
07-29-11, 22:09
This was my eye-opener turning point as well. Did matches/a class with the 1911 and did matches/class with a 9mm HK USP. Reloading half as much was a nice thing (I personally shoot 9mm faster and more accurately as well).
I like the handling and low recoil (did I mention cheapness) of 9mm. But I'm kneeling heavily towards a .45 ACP but in hi-cap. Problem is, choosing one for me.
How 'bout the Browning High Power?
It's got the thin, single action design that we love, but with a bit more ammo on board.
Rosco Benson
07-30-11, 08:11
How 'bout the Browning High Power?
It's got the thin, single action design that we love, but with a bit more ammo on board.
We had a thread on the P-35 a while back. Personally, I like the P-35 and feel adequately armed with one, but it is tougher to make a case for the P-35 than it is for the 1911. The P-35's trigger is not good and it really isn't very durable in high round-count use with hot ammo. If I have to accept a less-than-great trigger and am limited to 9mm (or .40), then I would rather just use a Glock.
Rosco
If I have to accept a less-than-great trigger and am limited to 9mm (or .40), then I would rather just use a Glock.
Rosco
I went on a Hi Power kick for about a year, then I came to pretty much the same conclusion.
I like to shoot IDPA and whatever other match I can find with my carry setup and the Hi Power just sucks at speed. The only place I found the Hi Power to excel (slightly) was in weak hand only shooting.
That ^ + what Roscoe mentioned + the weight difference = a Glock 19 back in my holster everyday.
Ya, design issue, it only holds about 7 or 8 rounds. ;)
C4
Someone needs to tell my ParaOrdnace P-14 it is lacking 7 rounds of .45acp
Absolute reliability (thanks Tussey Custom), CCW in Milt Sparks VM-2. It is the other 1911 style that I CCW.
DD
non-lawn mower type
I carry a Springfield Loaded a lot concealed. Why, because its thin, comfortable, reliable, and I'm damn good with it. I shoot IDPA with it and reloads are very quick. I always carry two spare mags and when I can get away with it I carry the gun loaded with a McCormick Power Plus 10 round mag with one in the pipe. 10+1 capacity is ideal.
For instances where clothing is more restrictive I carry an M&P.40c that hides a little bit better. The M&P and the 1911 are equally reliable and I have almost as much practice with it as I do the 1911. Both are solid guns and I carry whichever the situation allows for. I can carry both with 10+1 capacity and of course always two reloads. I don't feel under gunned with either pistol because I practice shooting and reloading/failure drills equally.
ETA: I always have the ability to carry my M&P .40fs with 15+1 capacity if I'm going to some of the shittier side of Atlanta. I see what a lot of you guys are saying about capacity. Having 16 rounds in the pistol ready to rock is better than having 9, and 8 or 16 more rounds on the belt. I access where I'm going and pack appropriately. Thankfully I don't have to go to the shittier side of town to much, but shit can happen almost anywhere.
Mauser KAR98K
07-30-11, 11:45
How 'bout the Browning High Power?
It's got the thin, single action design that we love, but with a bit more ammo on board.
We had a thread on the P-35 a while back. Personally, I like the P-35 and feel adequately armed with one, but it is tougher to make a case for the P-35 than it is for the 1911. The P-35's trigger is not good and it really isn't very durable in high round-count use with hot ammo. If I have to accept a less-than-great trigger and am limited to 9mm (or .40), then I would rather just use a Glock.
Rosco
I have one myself; bought it because I have always loved the look of Hi-Powers and had fired one when i was a younger-shooter (and doing the Weever:D)) I love, fun gun, cheap on ammo...but, magazine safety creates a harder trigger pull, mags do not freely drop upon release, and the thing likes to saw a portion of my hand off from the slide. Back in the day before polymer was still in its teething processes I would have carried it. but I was too young to carry anything legal, and times have changed now.
Great thread. At this moment I carry a 1911 but am thinking of switching to an M&P or Glock in 9mm. I don't feel behind the power curve with my current choice, but feeding it is damn expensive and I haven't pulled the trigger on a reloading setup. I personally don't want to switch to a 1911 in 9mm because in single stack magazines I feel I am giving up more than I am getting and would rather move to a double stack polymer.
At the end of the day, if you choose to carry a 1911 like I do, you need to be able to run it.
Littlelebowski
07-30-11, 11:51
Someone needs to tell my ParaOrdnace P-14 it is lacking 7 rounds of .45acp
Absolute reliability (thanks Tussey Custom), CCW in Milt Sparks VM-2. It is the other 1911 style that I CCW.
DD
non-lawn mower type
So that's about what 2, 2 and a half Glock's worth of money spent? Or one Glock plus a two class and ammo? Have it refinished yet?
I've been struggling with this for years..... Why not a 1911/Revolver vs a 15 round semi-auto for CCW use?
We carried 6 shot revolvers (2) when I was on the PD (now retired). I wanted to carry a 1911 back then but it was unauthorized. Now we have the 15+ round semi-auto. I like the newer guns but I'm still thinking the 1911 is the way to go, but then I wonder if this is not being practical.
I know that shot placement and training is everything but I'd like to get your thoughts on this subject. What do you use? Why?
Thank you.
You probably "could" get away with it given your current needs. You would have the benefit of systems you are familiar with and can use well. I suspect that most CCWs could actually carry a six shot .357 and be just fine in any defensive shoot situation.
But people tend to like to hedge their bet and having 15+1 offers a huge comfort factor. If the worst thing that happens is you still have 12 rounds left after the shooting stops, that isn't a bad thing. And it beats the shit out of needing "at least one more."
Realistically such a scenario might be unlikely, but it wouldn't be the first time somebody prepared for something that probably won't happen.
So you needs to assess your local situation and likely needs, factor in what you can use effectively and then make your decisions and go from there.
Beat Trash
07-30-11, 13:56
ETA: I always have the ability to carry my M&P .40fs with 15+1 capacity if I'm going to some of the shittier side of Atlanta. I see what a lot of you guys are saying about capacity. Having 16 rounds in the pistol ready to rock is better than having 9, and 8 or 16 more rounds on the belt. I access where I'm going and pack appropriately. Thankfully I don't have to go to the shittier side of town to much, but shit can happen almost anywhere.
If you knew in advance when and where you may be attacked, the wise thing would be to just stay home. It's the unpredictability of life that causes me to chose a high capacity pistol for daily carry. Because as you stated so well, "shit can happen almost anywhere".
Revolver: Speed reloads are aligning 5, 6, 7, or even 8 little cylinders in the appropriate number of holes. Tac reloads require loose rounds and fine motor skills. Add movement, maybe low visibility or awkward positioning and the difficulty increases.
1911: “The formula one race-car of pistols.” With high performance comes equally high demands on maintenance and operator skills. Spectacular guns but sensitive to ammunition, magazine, and small part selection.
Know yourself. Know you weapon. If you want to work to carry one of those, then go for it. But, understand that you might have to work harder, work longer and/or spend more money to reach equivalent skill abilities.
If you knew in advance when and where you may be attacked, the wise thing would be to just stay home. It's the unpredictability of life that causes me to chose a high capacity pistol for daily carry. Because as you stated so well, "shit can happen almost anywhere".
I know,,,,,, it's just more likely to happen in places you know that suck. I'm reconsidering the option of carrying my M&P fs now.
So that's about what 2, 2 and a half Glock's worth of money spent? Or one Glock plus a two class and ammo? Have it refinished yet?
Probably 2-1/2 the cost, but I blew the crap out of the limited rounds debate of the 1911 platform FWIW. Um ok got me on price (this thread was about cost?)
Throughout this thread were members talking about 1911 fanboys, though what I have witnessed was just the opposite of the polymer gun crowd. "My pistol carries 16 rounds of ammo", ok mine only carry's 14. But, but, but, mine was cheaper and I can purchase ammo.
I have bet my life on this Para, same with the steel CZ-75 I imported into the country mid '70's via BATF importation paperwork. Yep it is double stack though only 9mm. That pistol is reliable as hell, accurate as hell & also able to carry it condition one (cocked and locked).
Some one please tell my CZ-75 that it is inferior to a 9mm Glock as far as reliability, round count, concealability, maintenance & accuracy??
OP- though limited to 5 rounds, my stainless Ruger SP101 in .357 +P is occasionally carried CCW and have no problems doing so.
DD
(still not a law mower type)
Double-D,
Don't get so defensive. Look at the larger picture, of these endless 1911 vs. the world type threads, not just this one, and you'll see what we mean about the "fan-boys". hell, your starting to show symptoms yourself:D
The Para:
That yours works great, is great for you. Unfortunately, many others have not had the same luck. Most of the notable 1911 smiths, who build fighting guns, like Vickers and Yam, will tell you the Para's are not the best for high/hard use guns. 14 rounds of 45, in the same length magazine is a lot to ask of that spring.
The rule of thumb, is...
Steel
5" w/bushing
single stack
.45
Everything else in the 1911 world is considered suspect.
From my own observation, when I attended a swat course a few years ago, a fellow student was running a SS Para, it gave him so many issues, that after a shoot house run, he was reprimanded by the instructors for haveing such a POS gun, and that it was completely unacceptable. Of course, according to him, it never malfunctioned before that.:rolleyes:
The CZ-75, has its own issues, that make it a no-go for me, and I suspect a lot of others.
As noted the question was asked in a negative matter, IE: Why not? So he got negative type answers.
For all the references about aficionado, enthusiasts, artisans gun, dedicated user, make the effort, etc etc. I always end up asking my self, what am I getting for all that effort? In my mind, not much.
Bob
ETA: 9 pages, and we havent seen the OP back?
If it is done correctly, I believe it should be 52 rounds. Three seventeen round magazines, and one in the chamber.
Who's to say that is correct?
I know at least one top instructor that recommends down loading G17 mags by 1, and not everybody uses the "barney round". I know I could care less about it, and at one employment, we didn't use one.
Bob
Who is that? Just curious.
OP- though limited to 5 rounds, my stainless Ruger SP101 in .357 +P is occasionally carried CCW and have no problems doing so.
DD
(still not a law mower type)
A .357 +P eh? That must kick like a scalded-ass ape!
Who is that? Just curious.
I think LAV said that on one of his TV shows. If I remember correctly, the reasoning was that it may be difficult to properly seat a fully loaded magazine if the slide is closed.
However, I could be wrong. It has happened before.
misanthropist
07-30-11, 23:13
It is Ken Hackathorn's position as well...download G17 mags by one.
Living in Canada, I am ignoring that particular principle...it's bad enough to be stuck with 10 rounders; I ain't going to nine!
But I don't think it's something he'd be as likely to advise on the 10 rounders.
Who's to say that is correct?
I know at least one top instructor that recommends down loading G17 mags by 1, and not everybody uses the "barney round". I know I could care less about it, and at one employment, we didn't use one.
Bob
I understand your point, Bob. I probably should have phrased it, "If done to maximize number of rounds".
I don't usually sweat the last round either, especially if it's a high cap magazine.
I know Pat Rogers routinely emphasizes tac reload of a pistol after chambering the initial round. While I can see the merit in this, I'm not particularly stuck on following it.
When I am carrying my G26, I usually make sure I have 10+1. On my carry G19 or G17, I'm not too picky. Sometimes I will, sometimes not. My quick access G17 and M&P9 Pro have 17+1.
I don't down load any of my mags on purpose though. They all seat just fine fully loaded on a closed slide.
Vickers told us in class to download Glock mags by one round. He was directing it at ease of inserting a mag into a gun with a closed slide when he advised us of that.
A .357 +P eh? That must kick like a scalded-ass ape!
Yep. According to Dr. Roberts, all you get is more recoil and muzzle flash with minimal perfomance benefit. You're better off loading .38s.
"There is no reason to go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2” barrels."
The SP-101 is heavier than the J-frame blah, blah. It's still got too short a barrel to see any significant performance increase in exchange for the flash and recoil. I own an SP-101 in .357 and carried it on my body armor as a B.U.G. until the G-26 came out. I have qualified with it in night shoots and I will attest to the fact that .357+P will light up your evening.
Full text is here:
http://http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
Some one please tell my CZ-75 that it is inferior to a 9mm Glock as far as reliability, round count, concealability, maintenance & accuracy??
It is inferior.
I've owned a CZ-75B for years, and it is inferior in everything compared to it. Accuracy & Ergonomics may not be since they are user dependent.
Now, I'm not saying the CZ-75 is a bad weapon, but it is a nearly 40 year old design that really hasn't been improved upon.
Yep. According to Dr. Roberts, all you get is more recoil and muzzle flash with minimal perfomance benefit. You're better off loading .38s.
"There is no reason to go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2” barrels."
The SP-101 is heavier than the J-frame blah, blah. It's still got too short a barrel to see any significant performance increase in exchange for the flash and recoil. I own an SP-101 in .357 and carried it on my body armor as a B.U.G. until the G-26 came out. I have qualified with it in night shoots and I will attest to the fact that .357+P will light up your evening.
Full text is here:
http://http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
While I generally agree with your comments, the point I was trying to make was: "What in the hell is .357 +P?"
I once touched off a handload that qualified as .357 +P, if such a thing existed. We never found all of the gun, and what was left in my hands now hangs over the owner's reloading bench to serve as a reminder to always pay attention. I was 19 at the time, and new to guns, and I remember him stating the loads were 158 gr SWC over a max charge of Unique. At the time that meant nothing to me. Fast forward several years later, I now would bet the farm that he double charged that case and, for the life of me, will never understand why anyone would use a fast burning powder like Unique for max loads. That's why we have 2400, and better yet, Lil' Gun and H110/W296.
I used to carry a 3" GP100. Even with it's heft and bulk, .357 Magnum is no joke. Recoil was stout and muzzle blast was almost nauseating over a long session. To make matters worse, my trigger finger and the base of my strong thumb would blister inside six rounds of full power magnums. If I didn't tape these areas prior to shooting, I'd be bleeding in short order. For a short while, I still managed to shoot fairly well, despite the fire breathing dragon in my hands. With .38s, the gun was a pussy cat.
I soon moved to the 1911 and not long after, to the M&P9. I can find no faults with the M&P/Glock/HK concept in 9mm. On the other hand, the revolver and 1911, for me, are full of shortcomings.
Yep. According to Dr. Roberts, all you get is more recoil and muzzle flash with minimal perfomance benefit. You're better off loading .38s.
"There is no reason to go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2” barrels."
The SP-101 is heavier than the J-frame blah, blah. It's still got too short a barrel to see any significant performance increase in exchange for the flash and recoil. I own an SP-101 in .357 and carried it on my body armor as a B.U.G. until the G-26 came out. I have qualified with it in night shoots and I will attest to the fact that .357+P will light up your evening.
Full text is here:
http://http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
You should always use what you can control, and out of a small revolver the .357mag is a bit much no matter how big you are. In a full sized revolver, or full sized auto, it is about as manageable as a .45acp. I'd say that the .357sig is harder to control due to its shorter, 9mm action. Longer actions tend to dissipate recoil over a longer distance reducing the felt recoil. Thus, the 9x23 Winchester would be a better .357mag auto cartridge. One of the biggest advantages of the .357mag is the penetration ability of it with heavy, modern bullet designs. For instance the 180gr Partitian Gold load will penetrate 18" in bare gel while expanding to over .70". Thus, it penetrates much more than a standard service caliber, and it expands to .40-.45 levels. The FBI testing standard indicated that 12"-18" was "acceptable" penetration, but also that penetration was the critical element when it came to handgun effectiveness. If penetration is so critical?......why do the bare minimum of only 12" which is what most service calibers do? The .357mag is also exceptionally good at shooting through ALL types of barriers depending on the load, and using modern bullet technology.
Dr. Vincent DiMaio did quite a bit of work after Fackler's time, and his observations with more modern bullet designs in the late 1990s and early 2000s was that a cartridge that duplicated the .357mag would still be the most overall effective service sized cartridge.
http://www.amazon.com/Gunshot-Wounds-Ballistics-Techniques-Investigations/dp/0849381630/ref=dp_ob_title_bk/189-3639196-0791708
But once again, there is a little bit of a disconnect between the researcher and the end user. Dr. Fackler said that the ideal service rifle would be a bullpup with a 24" barrel to maximize terminal effects on the 5.56. Fackler didn't have a whole lot of trigger time as an end user, so the practicality of such a setup wasn't in his mind.
A .357 +P eh? That must kick like a scalded-ass ape!
My bad, meant to say .357 mag. Though can chamber in .38+p, typically have mine stoked with the magnum round.
I stand corrected- thanks.
Alpha Sierra
07-31-11, 11:17
I'd say that the .357sig is harder to control due to its shorter, 9mm action.
My first and only experience with that cartridge was this week when a co-worker let me try his sub-compact Glock.
To be honest, I was expecting a fire breather on the order of Remington's 125 gr .357 Magnum but I was surprised that it was nowhere nearly as bad. Recoil control was hard to judge since the little Glocks offer so little to hold on to. I'd be really interested in trying a full sized handgun in .357 SIG, since I have zero difficulty in concealing them.
And to tie all that to this discussion, I have always had an interest in the .357 SIG because I am an unabashed fan of the .357 Magnum as the perfect revolver cartridge for social purposes. And if I had to choose between two heavy, low capacity handguns (1911 Govt Model and med frame .357 Mag revolver) I'll take the revolver every single time.
The unreliability of revolvers is highly overstated.
My first and only experience with that cartridge was this week when a co-worker let me try his sub-compact Glock.
To be honest, I was expecting a fire breather on the order of Remington's 125 gr .357 Magnum but I was surprised that it was nowhere nearly as bad. Recoil control was hard to judge since the little Glocks offer so little to hold on to. I'd be really interested in trying a full sized handgun in .357 SIG, since I have zero difficulty in concealing them.
And to tie all that to this discussion, I have always had an interest in the .357 SIG because I am an unabashed fan of the .357 Magnum as the perfect revolver cartridge for social purposes. And if I had to choose between two heavy, low capacity handguns (1911 Govt Model and med frame .357 Mag revolver) I'll take the revolver every single time.
The unreliability of revolvers is highly overstated.
I'm a .357 mag fan as well but I don't currently own any revolvers. The .357 sig recoils about the same a the .40 caliber does to me. The only difference I can tell is the distinct sound of the .357 sig.
With the .357 Sig I only ever owned one. It was a P229 that I bought off a friend as a .40 cal. Then when I went through armorer's school there was a classmate there selling factory .357 barrels and I got one.
I enjoyed the caliber well enough. I thought it was fun to shoot but the problem I have is living in "medium sized town America" if you can't find ammunition at Wal Mart then you're only option is mail order, gunshow, or reload. While I do reload extensively I just didn't feel like getting into the extra hassle of the bottleneck case on this one.
Over time I've had two coworkers and one friend from another agency that carried .357 Sigs. Two full size Glocks and one P229. None of them ever practiced and ammo availability was always a factor. No one here is left carrying the cartridge now. Of those guys with the .357's they had trouble controlling the Glocks under recoil but I dont' recall ever shooting one to see how it did.
On revolvers. Looking back I've literally owned more handguns than I can remember. As far as revolvers go I can recall two N frame Model 29 Smith's that were out of time. One Dan Wesson .44 that was out of time, and two J frames that were out of time. None of these guns were ever able to be fixed to work right. And one of the 29's was worked on by a Smith armorer at a state LE shooting event. Now that said I've had several revolvers in the past years that ran just fine...For all six rounds after reload after six rounds after reload...You see my point there.
My personal experience has been far more trouble with revolvers than automatics ever. Any time an auto has broken in my area it was able to have a new part dropped in, or fitted in high powers and 1911's and ran fine afterward.
With the exception of a couple Kimber 1911's and one CZ75. Those have been pure junk guns. And expensive ones at that. I've fortunately not owned them. They were friend's guns.
Worst automatic I've ever had is a 1980 P-35 High power. It was never reliable until a couple years ago when I bought a Cylinder and Slide extractor and fitted it to the gun. Runs great now. I just wish it had back in the 80's when I actually carried it as a kid. It's the only gun I never dumped that was unreliable and that was due to it's being a Christmas present from my parents.
Still, even though I love it, it's accurate, has had Novaks put on it and has a nice trigger, due again to Cylinder and Slide's parts and internal reworking, it's a long time safe queen in this day of Glock's 19 and 26.
I understand your point, Bob. I probably should have phrased it, "If done to maximize number of rounds".
I don't usually sweat the last round either, especially if it's a high cap magazine.
I know Pat Rogers routinely emphasizes tac reload of a pistol after chambering the initial round. While I can see the merit in this, I'm not particularly stuck on following it.
When I am carrying my G26, I usually make sure I have 10+1. On my carry G19 or G17, I'm not too picky. Sometimes I will, sometimes not. My quick access G17 and M&P9 Pro have 17+1.
I don't down load any of my mags on purpose though. They all seat just fine fully loaded on a closed slide.
Most of the guys that insist on plusing up, or tac loading at every chance, have most of their experience & training with, wait for it.......1911's
Or were taught by guys who got most of their doctrine from 1911's.
Its just a hold over from low cap guns. When you only have 7 rounds to start with, the +1, is a big deal, when you already have 15-17, well not so much anymore.
Bob
My bad, meant to say .357 mag. Though can chamber in .38+p, typically have mine stoked with the magnum round.
I stand corrected- thanks.
I was mostly just ribbing you. Like I said above, I used to carry a .357 but I feel I've moved on to a much better choice.
Someone needs to tell my ParaOrdnace P-14 it is lacking 7 rounds of .45acp
Absolute reliability (thanks Tussey Custom), CCW in Milt Sparks VM-2. It is the other 1911 style that I CCW.
DD
non-lawn mower type
Someone needs to tell Para how to build a quality gun.
C4
It is Ken Hackathorn's position as well...download G17 mags by one.
Correct.
C4
Alpha Sierra
07-31-11, 19:46
Vickers told us in class to download Glock mags by one round. He was directing it at ease of inserting a mag into a gun with a closed slide when he advised us of that.
The difference in effort to seat a magazine with 17 rounds vs one with 16 into my G17 with a closed slide is imperceptible.
I personally do not plan on taking that advice.
Matt Edwards
07-31-11, 20:14
Most of the guys that insist on plusing up, or tac loading at every chance, have most of their experience & training with, wait for it.......1911's
Or were taught by guys who got most of their doctrine from 1911's.
Its just a hold over from low cap guns. When you only have 7 rounds to start with, the +1, is a big deal, when you already have 15-17, well not so much anymore.
Bob
I agree.
The difference in effort to seat a magazine with 17 rounds vs one with 16 into my G17 with a closed slide is imperceptible.
I personally do not plan on taking that advice.
It is all about being able to load the weapon under stress (like someone trying to kill you).
This is why combat veterans (like Vickers) recommend it.
It is fine to say that something isn't for you, but I would spend a lot of time thinking about it and why someone with Vickers background recommends it.
C4
Alpha Sierra
07-31-11, 21:22
It is all about being able to load the weapon under stress (like someone trying to kill you).
C4
It's pretty simple.
Someone here said Larry Vickers told him to download Glock magazines by one because it makes them easier to seat in a pistol in battery.
I tried it both ways (full and -1) and found zero difference (that I could feel) in the effort needed to seat the mags. Quite unlike an AR using GI mags with 30 rounds in them.
So, since the magazines seat just as easily (no perceptible difference) either way, having tested it myself, I'm not going to short myself even one cartridge just because someone said so.
It doesn't require a whole lot of thought. Just a simple test.
The magazines seat just as easily (no perceptible difference) either way. And since that is so, having tested it myself, I'm not going to short myself even one cartridge just because someone said so.
Being under stress has nothing to do with it.
All guns are different I guess because I can tell a difference in my Glock's and apparently so can Vickers and Hackathorn.
C4
All guns are different I guess because I can tell a difference in my Glock's and apparently so can Vickers and Hackathorn.
C4
This, I've also had G22 mags that were all but impossible to load to 15, until they "broke in".
Bob
I've found via empirical experience that there's a siginificant difference in ease of loading a Glock magazine downloaded by one round when loading when the slide is in battery. It's even more pronounced when using a G21 .45 ACP, or a 10 round magazine in any caliber.
All of my G17/G34 magazine are downloaded by 2 rounds, and all my other Glock magazines (G19, G21) are downloaded by one round.
Another minor advantage to downloading is that if you have to administratively unload your weapon, you've got a place to store the chambered round.
Best, Jon
capt_jerry
08-01-11, 09:04
I own a Kimber 1911 and a Glock 19. The Glock is my go-to gun through and through.
Bottom line for me in regards to a larger magazine capacity...
"Better to have, and not need, than to need, and not have."
I agree as I have a Kimber Desert Warrior and a Sprigfield XD. In todays sick world more capacity IMHO is mandatory as the bad guys are carrying big capacity. My XD is the carry choice while the Kimber is a great range gun and lives it's life in the safe.
Littlelebowski
08-01-11, 10:30
It's pretty simple.
Someone here said Larry Vickers told him to download Glock magazines by one because it makes them easier to seat in a pistol in battery.
I tried it both ways (full and -1) and found zero difference (that I could feel) in the effort needed to seat the mags. Quite unlike an AR using GI mags with 30 rounds in them.
So, since the magazines seat just as easily (no perceptible difference) either way, having tested it myself, I'm not going to short myself even one cartridge just because someone said so.
It doesn't require a whole lot of thought. Just a simple test.
Happened to me (video) (http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/?action=view¤t=SANY0027.mp4)
Magic_Salad0892
08-01-11, 12:22
It's pretty simple.
Someone here said Larry Vickers told him to download Glock magazines by one because it makes them easier to seat in a pistol in battery.
I tried it both ways (full and -1) and found zero difference (that I could feel) in the effort needed to seat the mags. Quite unlike an AR using GI mags with 30 rounds in them.
So, since the magazines seat just as easily (no perceptible difference) either way, having tested it myself, I'm not going to short myself even one cartridge just because someone said so.
It doesn't require a whole lot of thought. Just a simple test.
Replace your magazine spring. It's worn out...
That said, I keep mine at full capacity, because I slam the magazines in there...
Nephrology
08-01-11, 13:19
I draw the line at 10 rds in the gun (10+1).
QuietShootr
08-01-11, 13:22
I draw the line at 10 rds in the gun (10+1).
say what?
Nephrology
08-01-11, 13:23
say what?
Ooops.... thought I was in a different thread :p Ignore that.
Replace your magazine spring. It's worn out...
That said, I keep mine at full capacity, because I slam the magazines in there...
This was my thought as well.
PM's on mags is usually not done by most shooters.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
08-01-11, 13:45
This was my thought as well.
PM's on mags is usually not done by most shooters.
C4
Then they wonder why they have problems.
This was my thought as well.
PM's on mags is usually not done by most shooters.
C4
Which is silly considering how cheap they are to maintain.
Alpha Sierra
08-01-11, 14:34
Replace your magazine spring. It's worn out...
That said, I keep mine at full capacity, because I slam the magazines in there...
The mags are less than a year old. I doubt that's the issue.
I don't ever push my magazines in. I get them started into the well then I slap them in with the heel of my hand. I do that if the mag is full or if it has one round in it.
I've never had an issue like what some report here.
OBTW, I am fanatical about firearm (and anything else mechanical) maintenance.
Alpha Sierra
08-01-11, 14:37
Happened to me (video) (http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/?action=view¤t=SANY0027.mp4)
You failed to seat a mag while loading it into an empty pistol. We are talking about failing to seat when inserted into a pistol already in battery.
Look guys, I take what respected trainers seriously. But I also try it for myself and will state whether it works for me or not AFTER TRYING IT.
My G17, and its Gen 4 AND previous gen mags seat every time open slide or closed slide, full or partial.
It is what it is......
titsonritz
08-01-11, 14:57
Everyone one of my 15 round (no + extensions) Glock 19 & 20 mags is kept loaded with 15 rounds and it has been that way for a lot of years without a single issue.
The mags are less than a year old. I doubt that's the issue.
I don't ever push my magazines in. I get them started into the well then I slap them in with the heel of my hand. I do that if the mag is full or if it has one round in it.
I've never had an issue like what some report here.
OBTW, I am fanatical about firearm (and anything else mechanical) maintenance.
It's less about how old they are and more about how much cyclic loading they've been exposed to. I replace mag springs at 5,000 rounds and I keep five mags specifically for training. When I replace my recoil spring I change the mag springs too. Even though the mags have the 5,000 spread across them, I have found it's easier to just change them on the same schedule as the recoil spring. I have replaced a few as soon as 3,000 after I had some feed issues. In general you should be feeling a fair amount of resistance when inserting a full mag into a Glock with a closed action. If your mags work for you, carry on.
In my experience, G36 mags seem to crap out earlier than other Glock mags. I've replaced quite a few of them in numerous officer's guns. Just an FYI.
Because a modern semi auto has less moving parts, weighs less with more ammo, is just as accurate, is far more reliable on top of being durable, requires far less maintenance, and the parts are drop in. Not to mention being far more corrosion resistant.
And to add that Tangos run in packs these days and you never know when your going to need all 21 round with a mag malf.
There was a time when it looked like the .45 was going to be superceded by a round with even more recoil & muzzle blast. With the improvements in hollowpoints, things seem to have gone the other way. Back in the 80's anyone who relied on a 9mm wasn't a real man.
http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id85.html
RancidSumo
08-03-11, 10:39
I've been over this a million times with my dad and I'm convinced that there is absolutely no convincing 1911 fans.
He shoots a Wilson Combat 1911 with all Wilson mags and I've still seem many failures out of that gun. Just like I've seen them with all his Colts, his friend's Springfields and Sigs, and the Taurus I've shot. I know you can get good, reliable 1911s when you start spending lots of money on them but the one and only high end gun I've shot, the Wilson, wasn't a shining example of reliability and in my opinion, that is the most important characteristic of a defensive pistol.
On top of that, I've found follow up shots to be considerably slower with a 1911 than with a 9mm M&P or Glock. I shoot a drill that I was told about on here (10 shots in 10 seconds at 10 yards in a 6" circle from the ready) in ~7 seconds when modified to from the holster with my M&P. I was looking at ~8 with my dad's WC from the ready. If that isn't a disadvantage I don't know what is.
Additionally, I've had the same shoot house experience as Grant. The house had five bad guys. With two into each one, you must reload with a 1911 where as I cleared the whole thing and still had seven rounds in my gun without having to reload while staring down a bad guy's gun.
I think for most people, the whole "use what you shoot best" advice doesn't apply here. For most people, if they shoot best with a 1911 I'd recommend practicing with a Glock or M&P until that is no longer the case.
I've been struggling with this for years..... Why not a 1911/Revolver vs a 15 round semi-auto for CCW use?
Why not indeed! Many do CCW revolvers and or lower cap autos (1911) all the time. I CCWd a 1911 for a decade plus with one extra mag and did not feel I lacked for my particular needs. Your needs may differ. For reasons others have done such a good job of explaining, I went from a dedicated 1911 guy (and I still love the platform) to an M&P 9mm.
If you run a wheel gun well, will carry it, practice with it, and carry known caliber and brands approved for SD, then I wouldn't let anyone talk you out of it for wonder pistols.
Yes, the new pistols, in particular (for me at least) the M&P, have a lot going for them, but the fact is, anyone who can run a wheel gun well is a dangerous foe indeed.
Why not indeed! Many do CCW revolvers and or lower cap autos (1911) all the time. I CCWd a 1911 for a decade plus with one extra mag and did not feel I lacked for my particular needs. Your needs may differ. For reasons others have done such a good job of explaining, I went from a dedicated 1911 guy (and I still love the platform) to an M&P 9mm.
If you run a wheel gun well, will carry it, practice with it, and carry known caliber and brands approved for SD, then I wouldn't let anyone talk you out of it for wonder pistols.
Yes, the new pistols, in particular (for me at least) the M&P, have a lot going for them, but the fact is, anyone who can run a wheel gun well is a dangerous foe indeed.
...nice post.
...nice post.
Thanx...
In my view, end of the day, the tool is the tool (and best tool for the job always a plus if you can get it when you need it...) and the man behind the tool the major variable to the outcome.
I have a friend who is the devil himself with a wheel gun and I'd give him odds against anyone.
He's a 70 year retired trooper who has been in a number of OIS and God help the idiot who ever takes him for a helpless old man. He will have 3 into one guy, 3 into the other, and be mid way through his re load before they even know what happened.
Just sayin' :D
Thanx...
In my view, end of the day, the tool is the tool (and best tool for the job always a plus if you can get it when you need it...) and the man behind the tool the major variable to the outcome.
I have a friend who is the devil himself with a wheel gun and I'd give him odds against anyone.
He's a 70 year retired trooper who has been in a number of OIS and God help the idiot who ever takes him for a helpless old man. He will have 3 into one guy, 3 into the other, and be mid way through his re load before they even know what happened.
Just sayin' :D
So true Mr. Brink. I'd take a competent shooter with a better than average tactical sense armed with what he prefers over an less than competent shooter with zero tactical sense armed with the latest 40 watt plasma rifle - anyday.
So true Mr. Brink. I'd take a competent shooter with a better than average tactical sense armed with what he prefers over an less than competent shooter with zero tactical sense armed with the latest 40 watt plasma rifle - anyday.
LOL. :D
has anyone tried these? A hicap .45
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Smith-Wesson-M-P-Pistol-Magazine-p/mp%2039213.htm
sigh...that wasn't my question, was it??
Just wondering if the stats I stated were indeed factual...I will take my sbr over a glock in a gun fight if you want to pick the fly shit out of the pepper.
Are there any true life stats for how many rounds fired for the average civi gun owner & gunfight encounter?? I don't care about what shotgun, pistol or rifle was used.
No, there are no such stats.
The closest I have seen is Tom Given's, of Rangemaster in Memphis, data from his CCW students who have been involved in self defense shootings, 56 at last count.
Almost all have been due to robbery attempts, and the "average" is that it takes five rounds to put the bad guy down.
Tom carries a G35 for just this reason. He used to carry a 1911, but that has an average of "one and a half doses of felon repellent" as opposed to the G35 that has three doses on board.
At work I carry a G17 with +2 mag pads, 20 rounds on board before the slide locks back. I am very happy that this is two more rounds than I had on my entire person back in the day when I started on the job and we carried wheelguns.
Off-duty I carry at least my Glock 19 as a primary.
We just had a high profile murder of a lady who was coming home and in her own driveway, in a "nice" neighborhood, when she was robbed and shot dead. We are still rounding up suspects but there were nine of them on this incident.
Does Topeka issue G17's or are sidearms left at Officer's choice?
No, there are no such stats.
The closest I have seen is Tom Given's, of Rangemaster in Memphis, data from his CCW students who have been involved in self defense shootings, 56 at last count.
Almost all have been due to robbery attempts, and the "average" is that it takes five rounds to put the bad guy down.
Tom carries a G35 for just this reason. He used to carry a 1911, but that has an average of "one and a half doses of felon repellent" as opposed to the G35 that has three doses on board.
At work I carry a G17 with +2 mag pads, 20 rounds on board beofe the slide locks back. I am very happy that this is two more rounds than I had on my entire person back in the day when I started on the job and we carried wheelguns.
Off-duty I carry at least my Glock 19 as a primary.
We just had a high profile murder of a lady who was coming home and in her own driveway, in a "nice" neighborhood, when she was robbed and shot dead. We are still rounding up suspects but there were nine of them on this incident.
I'm so glad that this thread and my own thread really has opened my eyes. I'm 30, but have been shooting and preaching the 1911 is the way to go for years. I used to be comfortable with 8+1 and a reload but have wised up. Your recount of the average of 5 shots to bring the BG down really puts things in perspective. I now carry the M&P .40fs with 15+1 capacity. It was the right move.
Please elaborate?
Bren Ten
has anyone tried these? A hicap .45
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Smith-Wesson-M-P-Pistol-Magazine-p/mp%2039213.htm
The one I tried really sucked. I have seen some that ran though. Didn't even get to fire mine. Halfway through loading the magazine, the spring shot out of the side and jammed the follower halfway down the mag tube.
Does Topeka issue G17's or are sidearms left at Officer's choice?
Mostly G17s, some G19s.
Ok, I was in a Colt armorer's class last October with one of your guys. never occured to me to ask him about sidearms.
Alaskapopo
08-16-11, 03:43
I've been struggling with this for years..... Why not a 1911/Revolver vs a 15 round semi-auto for CCW use?
We carried 6 shot revolvers (2) when I was on the PD (now retired). I wanted to carry a 1911 back then but it was unauthorized. Now we have the 15+ round semi-auto. I like the newer guns but I'm still thinking the 1911 is the way to go, but then I wonder if this is not being practical.
I know that shot placement and training is everything but I'd like to get your thoughts on this subject. What do you use? Why?
Thank you.
If you have a reliable tuned 1911 by all means carry it. I did for years. The reason I stopped was the constant maintance these guns require to stay on top of them. Revolvers they can work but you're taking a disadvantage in round count and reload speed. One I am not willing to live with. Its a personal choice. I carry a Glock 17 on duty and a Glock 26 off. The 26 is my BUG on duty as well.
Pat
I've been struggling with this for years..... Why not a 1911/Revolver vs a 15 round semi-auto for CCW use?
We carried 6 shot revolvers (2) when I was on the PD (now retired). I wanted to carry a 1911 back then but it was unauthorized. Now we have the 15+ round semi-auto. I like the newer guns but I'm still thinking the 1911 is the way to go, but then I wonder if this is not being practical.
I know that shot placement and training is everything but I'd like to get your thoughts on this subject. What do you use? Why?
Thank you.
Because 1911's are reliable for only 1 shot, and that's if you carry with one in the tube.
Revolvers are great, but I would rather have 16 than 6 shots.
I carry a Glock 19 and it has never failed. My Les Baer TRS and my Wilson Combat Tactical Supergrade are now gone. The TRS was sold for $1100 or something and the Wilson was sold back to Wilson Combat for purchase price minus $250 restocking fee. Don't miss either of those paperweights. They were junk. Anyone who chooses to not only pay for, but carry a 1911 is living off nostalgia and John Wayne films in my opinion. Either that or they got really lucky with their pistol.
Because 1911's are reliable for only 1 shot, and that's if you carry with one in the tube.
Bullcrap.
Bullcrap.
Well I've owned a Les Baer and a Wilson Supergrade and I'm done dumping money down that drain based on the drivel that "a well-build 1911 is just as reliable as..."
Well, it isn't. Unless of course I managed to get a lemon from BOTH Baer and Wilson. I guess that's possible. Still. I'm done with the 1911 cool-aid.
My Baer was a 1-shot wonder, and my Supergrade made it to the last round before it would hang up. So I guess I am TECHNICALLY wrong. The Wilson was good for 6 shots with a 7 round mag, or 7 shots with the 8 round ETM's. The Baer was an unknown, freezing up at random points due to how bloody tight they built it. Yes, I shot it 1000 times and it still did it. Yes, I put CLP and JB Bore Paste in the thing and racked it a ton. No dice. Break-in should not require NEAR that, much less MORE. It was a TRS without the 1.5" guarantee. Wilson went back to Wilson Combat 2 times because it fell apart (rear-sight slid around, was finger-pressure loose after the first 150 rounds through the gun), and the 3rd time when I sent it back for FTF's, I just told them to keep it. I didn't pay $4200 for a gun with worse workmanship and function than my Glock 19. To Wilson's credit, they politely refunded my money to my dealer, and him to me, and I think they are a great company. I just don't want any of their products. Baer (whoever I spoke with, not Les himself) just adopted a "our shit doesn't stink" attitude and so I unloaded the pistol for cheap after full disclosure of its issues.
My SIG is just as accurate as either pistol and has never once had a failure. My Glock 19, either for that matter, although it's not quite as accurate most likely.
Some people like the nostalgia of the 1911, or the tinkering you can do with one, but the only real justification I can come up with for owning one is as a toy. (ie. to shoot matches, enjoy the feel of the workmanship on if you get a nice one, as a piece of history, etc. etc.)
Alaskapopo
08-16-11, 08:36
Well I've owned a Les Baer and a Wilson Supergrade and I'm done dumping money down that drain based on the drivel that "a well-build 1911 is just as reliable as..."
Well, it isn't. Unless of course I managed to get a lemon from BOTH Baer and Wilson. I guess that's possible. Still. I'm done with the 1911 cool-aid.
My Baer was a 1-shot wonder, and my Supergrade made it to the last round before it would hang up. So I guess I am TECHNICALLY wrong. The Wilson was good for 6 shots with a 7 round mag, or 7 shots with the 8 round ETM's. The Baer was an unknown, freezing up at random points due to how bloody tight they built it. Yes, I shot it 1000 times and it still did it. Yes, I put CLP and JB Bore Paste in the thing and racked it a ton. No dice. Break-in should not require NEAR that, much less MORE. It was a TRS without the 1.5" guarantee. Wilson went back to Wilson Combat 2 times because it fell apart (rear-sight slid around, was finger-pressure loose after the first 150 rounds through the gun), and the 3rd time when I sent it back for FTF's, I just told them to keep it. I didn't pay $4200 for a gun with worse workmanship and function than my Glock 19. To Wilson's credit, they politely refunded my money to my dealer, and him to me, and I think they are a great company. I just don't want any of their products. Baer (whoever I spoke with, not Les himself) just adopted a "our shit doesn't stink" attitude and so I unloaded the pistol for cheap after full disclosure of its issues.
My SIG is just as accurate as either pistol and has never once had a failure. My Glock 19, either for that matter, although it's not quite as accurate most likely.
Some people like the nostalgia of the 1911, or the tinkering you can do with one, but the only real justification I can come up with for owning one is as a toy. (ie. to shoot matches, enjoy the feel of the workmanship on if you get a nice one, as a piece of history, etc. etc.)
People don't just like the 1911 for nostalgia. The system does have some advantages over more modern designs due to its trigger. Simply put the reason 1911's dominate USPSA, ISPC, and other shooting sports is they are easier to shoot well and are generally more accurate. Yes you can have a reliable 1911. The problem is not that 1911's are un reliable. The problem is they take more maintance and upkeep to keep them that way. Its like an AK vs an AR. The AR is a fine and reliable weapon but it does take more TLC than an AK. But you also get more out of it. By the way if any guy you own truly has never had a failure you simply have not shot enough. All man made items will fail. Either a bad round or something will eventually give and break. Frankly for reliability I would take a custom 1911 over any new Sig. Seen way too many of the newer sigs choke to trust them.
My Wilson CQB went through 2000 rounds when I was testing it before I used it as a carry gun without cleaning and without a malfunction. I shot it for another 15k relatively trouble free. But I did have to swap out parts like the ejectors, extractors, plunger tube etc. The main advantage modern polimer guns have is they can shoot nearly forever with little to no maintance. The ideal handgun would be a Glock with a 1911 trigger in my opinion.
Pat
People don't just like the 1911 for nostalgia. The system does have some advantages over more modern designs due to its trigger. I agree that the trigger is superior in some cases. My SIG with a little work feels better than the Les Baer I had, but not quite as good as the Supergrade. Simply put the reason 1911's dominate USPSA, ISPC, and other shooting sports is they are easier to shoot well and are generally more accurate. They are easier to shoot accuratel for some people. I disagree with them being more accurate. Again, citing my SIG. 1.17" CTC at 25 yards off a sand-bag using Gold Dots. 5-shot group. Know many 1911's that can do any better with duty ammo, consistantly? Yes you can have a reliable 1911. The problem is not that 1911's are un reliable. The feed geometry sucks, there are un-necessary moving parts, the extractor acts as its own spring and must be filed, sanded, and carefully tuned, the list goes on. The margin of error for a 1911 to be reliable is such that even though EVERYTHING measures "in-spec" they still don't work sometimes. Such as my Supergrade. Wilson swore to me it was "perfect". So I sent it back for a refund after e-mailing them a video of it jamming just as I first described when they told me it was the ammo...the same ammo I sent to them to test it with that they said was great ammo and worked fine...1911's require art and luck to function. A Glock functions because it's designed well and if the parts are in spec, you slap the gun togather, and it runs like a top. Yes, you can have a reliable 1911. A few Ford Pinto's were also gems, I'm sure. The problem is they take more maintance and upkeep to keep them that way. Yes they do.Its like an AK vs an AR. The AR is a fine and reliable weapon but it does take more TLC than an AK. If all the parts are in-spec on an AR, you slap it together and it runs. Same for the AK. Totally different from a 1911 where you bend and file on crap trying to make it work with a certain magazine or profile bullet. But you also get more out of it. By the way if any guy you own truly has never had a failure you simply have not shot enough. All man made items will fail. You are 100% correct, but none of my Glock's have fallen apart in less than 200 rounds, nor have they had repeatable jams when held correctly, etc. like all the 1911's I have owned. Either a bad round or something will eventually give and break. Frankly for reliability I would take a custom 1911 over any new Sig. Seen way too many of the newer sigs choke to trust them. SIG has some QC issues. They started when a former 1911 producing company's executive took charge. Go figure. I got a good one. I am primarily a Glock fan, but the SIG I have is a real winner for the US made guns.
My Wilson CQB went through 2000 rounds when I was testing it before I used it as a carry gun without cleaning and without a malfunction. My Supergrade's rear sight shot loose in 150 rounds, lol. Glad to hear you got a good one! Don't touch a THING! I shot it for another 15k relatively trouble free. But I did have to swap out parts like the ejectors, extractors, plunger tube etc. The main advantage modern polimer guns have is they can shoot nearly forever with little to no maintance. The ideal handgun would be a Glock with a 1911 trigger in my opinion.
Pat
Never shot or owned a reliable 1911, I'm glad you got a good one and all the stars aligned with it. I am truly convinced that since Wilson told me ALL the specs on my gun were gone over the 2nd time it was in their shop for repairs and it was perfect, that there is an "intangible" that goes into a 1911 that wont shit the bed every couple dozen rounds or so.
I guess I could keep buying and returning Wilson's until I got one like yours...but why?
As to the AR-15's I have shot that were a mess...
My Sabre Defense had a bolt that was out of spec. Replaced it and it stopped shaving brass.
My friend had a mutt he built and the M855 we shot was snagging on the feed-ramp because the barrel feed-ramps and the reciever had a gap that the tips got into.
Both easily traceable problems. With the 1911, extractor tension effects ejection AND feeding. Epic fail, there. I could go on and on about why the 1911 is inferior, but the competition shooters will keep chanting "trigger trigger trigger trigger" while the people who actually use the guns for things that matter more than ego will quietly tuck their Glocks, HK's, and SIGs into their holsters and go about their business.
And, theres an awful lot of winning goin on with out 1911's.
Bob
Both easily traceable problems. With the 1911, extractor tension effects ejection AND feeding. Epic fail, there. I could go on and on about why the 1911 is inferior, but the competition shooters will keep chanting "trigger trigger trigger trigger" while the people who actually use the guns for things that matter more than ego will quietly tuck their Glocks, HK's, and SIGs into their holsters and go about their business.
You have to remember that many LE and Military Tier 1 units used 1911's for a long time to kill a lot of bad people.
To this day, no other pistol is as "shootable" as a 1911.
Having just finished the Vickers/Hackathorn centennial 1911 class, I realized some things.
1. Man, there are a lot of parts in these things. Work of art comes to mind.
My CQB
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/1911_Centennial/Grant_CQB_Apart.jpg
2. Accuracy is off the chart. I hadn't shot a 1911 in a class in over two years! I am twice the shooter I was then and can now take advantage of its FULL potential. For fun, I would just putting holes in holes (for something to do). This cannot be said about many/all of the modern polymer pistols.
3. A lot of Tactical and Emergency reloads! When we did the shoot house portion of the class, you basically had to do a Tac reload in every room for fear of getting slide lock in the middle of a fight. :eek:
The 1911 is an old girl that is STILL popular today because it does some things better than many other current day pistols. While it still isn't my first choice for a carry gun, I am still amazed at what it can do in the hands of a skilled shooter.
C4
My SIG is just as accurate as either pistol and has never once had a failure. My Glock 19, either for that matter, although it's not quite as accurate most likely.
If you are referring to an old school Sig, then that is a fact. My agency still has hundreds of W. German P226s and P228s and they run better than new Sigs that officers are buying. Buy a new Sig today, and after only a couple of hundred rounds you can see significant frame and parts wear. Just as a comparison, I was lucky enough to find a 1994 P228 a couple of weeks ago still new in the box. It had only been fired five times at the factory to sight it in. I've never had a new in box West German gun from this time period.......they've always been used and abuse(but still good). My impressions of this extinct German pistol, was that it had the fit and finish that reminded me of new H&Ks. Accuracy was of course exceptional, as well as reliability. After 300 rounds there was only the slightest amount of finish wear on the rails and internals which is a testament to the quality of these old guns.
It's pretty much impossible now days to find a hammer fired "service" pistol that has an alloy frame and is as good as those made in the 1980s and 1990s. You simple cannot manufacture a top tier service pistol with an alloy frame anymore and still use superior materials and quality controls and compete in the polymer gun market. The 80s and 90s were a different story, as agencies and consumers were still not convinced that cheaper polymer, striker fired pistols could be just as good as their alloyed framed, hammer fired counterparts. Sigs, Berettas, .....etc......the 80s and 90s were considered to be the peak of their quality years which was a direct result of the market forces. In the polymer age, you will never see another alloy framed service pistol that is as good as what top tier manufacturers like H&K can offer, unless it is in the $1500+ range.......but then it wouldn't sell and would likely be discontinued anyway.
You have to remember that many LE and Military Tier 1 units used 1911's for a long time to kill a lot of bad people.
To this day, no other pistol is as "shootable" as a 1911. That is a personal opinion. I do better with a Glock.
Having just finished the Vickers/Hackathorn centennial 1911 class, I realized some things.
1. Man, there are a lot of parts in these things. Work of art comes to mind. Yes, lots of parts. They are art. Art requires soul. Some have it and run, some don't.
2. Accuracy is off the chart. I hadn't shot a 1911 in a class in over two years! I am twice the shooter I was then and can now take advantage of its FULL potential. For fun, I would just putting holes in holes (for something to do). This cannot be said about many/all of the modern polymer pistols.
I disagree, saw a gun-rag where a G17 shot a 1" group at 25 yards from a ransom rest, also have seen a lot of other tests of H&K and Glocks doing very well. If you were to fit a bar-sto barrel to a G17, it would group just as well as the 1911 with its custom fit barrel. Go compare an off the shelf 1911 with an off the shelf Glock 17 from a ransom. I bet the difference doesn't amount to much.
3. A lot of Tactical and Emergency reloads! When we did the shoot house portion of the class, you basically had to do a Tac reload in every room for fear of getting slide lock in the middle of a fight. :eek:
The 1911 is an old girl that is STILL popular today because it does some things better than many other current day pistols. While it still isn't my first choice for a carry gun, I am still amazed at what it can do in the hands of a skilled shooter.
C4
I agree that the 1911 can still kill things dead, but as your lifestyle indicates, there are better tools for the job.
If you want to talk about a reliable weapon that is accurate, the P210 is one that deserves mention. It does everything that the 1911 wishes it could, and is more accurate, has at LEAST as good a trigger, and doesn't require a bunch of custom fitting to run right/accurate.
If you are referring to an old school Sig, then that is a fact. My agency still has hundreds of W. German P226s and P228s and they run better than new Sigs that officers are buying. Buy a new Sig today, and after only a couple of hundred rounds you can see significant frame and parts wear. Just as a comparison, I was lucky enough to find a 1994 P228 a couple of weeks ago still new in the box. It had only been fired five times at the factory to sight it in. I've never had a new in box West German gun from this time period.......they've always been used and abuse(but still good). My impressions of this extinct German pistol, was that it had the fit and finish that reminded me of new H&Ks. Accuracy was of course exceptional, as well as reliability. After 300 rounds there was only the slightest amount of finish wear on the rails and internals which is a testament to the quality of these old guns.
My SIG was made in 2010. I agree strongly with you that the new SIG's have some QC issues, but they are QC issues, not design flaws like the 1911 suffers. I got lucky on my SIG and it has been VERY nice. Bruce Gray and Torie did a little work to it for me, but the barrel/slide were left alone except for refinishing in QPQ. Factory lock-up.
It's pretty much impossible now days to find a hammer fired "service" pistol that has an alloy frame and is as good as those made in the 1980s and 1990s. You simple cannot manufacture a top tier service pistol with an alloy frame anymore and still use superior materials and quality controls and compete in the polymer gun market. The 80s and 90s were a different story, as agencies and consumers were still not convinced that cheaper polymer, striker fired pistols could be just as good as their alloyed framed, hammer fired counterparts. Sigs, Berettas, .....etc......the 80s and 90s were considered to be the peak of their quality years which was a direct result of the market forces. In the polymer age, you will never see another alloy framed service pistol that is as good as what top tier manufacturers like H&K can offer, unless it is in the $1500+ range.......but then it wouldn't sell and would likely be discontinued anyway.
I think SIG's QC got messed up because of their trying to pump out too many DIFFERENT weapons, as well as poor management.
You have to remember that many LE and Military Tier 1 units used 1911's for a long time to kill a lot of bad people.
To this day, no other pistol is as "shootable" as a 1911.
Having just finished the Vickers/Hackathorn centennial 1911 class, I realized some things.
1. Man, there are a lot of parts in these things. Work of art comes to mind.
My CQB
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/1911_Centennial/Grant_CQB_Apart.jpg
2. Accuracy is off the chart. I hadn't shot a 1911 in a class in over two years! I am twice the shooter I was then and can now take advantage of its FULL potential. For fun, I would just putting holes in holes (for something to do). This cannot be said about many/all of the modern polymer pistols.
3. A lot of Tactical and Emergency reloads! When we did the shoot house portion of the class, you basically had to do a Tac reload in every room for fear of getting slide lock in the middle of a fight. :eek:
The 1911 is an old girl that is STILL popular today because it does some things better than many other current day pistols. While it still isn't my first choice for a carry gun, I am still amazed at what it can do in the hands of a skilled shooter.
C4
All that machine work that makes the gun look so well made is a lost art, and you'll never see it again in production guns unless you want to spend a couple of grand on it:
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee465/scott19761442/p0813.jpg
I think SIG's QC got messed up because of their trying to pump out too many DIFFERENT weapons, as well as poor management.
Sig produced good quality alloy guns up until 2004, but it was killing the company. They were losing lots of contracts, because agencies were not willing to pay a premium price for an alloy pistol when the competition was offering pistols that were just as good at significantly cheaper prices. Beretta has suffered the same fate. When Ron Cohen took over, he chose to continue producing alloy framed pistols, but to increase profits corners had to be cut in manufacturing. He shifted the company away from the classic German business model of building guns to fufill contract needs, to building guns for the commercial market which unfortunately is the play ground of companies like Bushmaster, DPMS, Ruger, Taurus,......etc.
For some reason, when a company chooses to build a firearm for the commercial market when it was originally designed for military/police use, it often turns out to be a cheap immitation(very few exceptions). Since Sig is loosing so many contracts around the country, US made Sigs have become that cheap immitation.........but still sold at premium prices.
Cohen is making Sig a lot of money in the commerical market. It is likely that you will never see Sig return to a contract business model like H&K.
I agree that the 1911 can still kill things dead, but as your lifestyle indicates, there are better tools for the job.
Most 1911's will shoot 1-1.5" groups at 50yds NOT 25yds. ;)
The mechanical ability of most popular guns is there (which a Ransom Rest will show). There is just one problem with that though. It doesn't translate into the same accuracy when fired by a human.
Why you ask? Simple. The 1911's loaded weight ratio to trigger pull weight is nearly ideal. My CQB's loaded weight is just over 3LBS with a trigger pull of 3.5LBS. This is almost a one to one ratio.
My G17 has a loaded weight of 2LBS with a trigger pull weight of over 6LBS. The trigger pull weight is TRIPLE the the weight of the gun.
The closer the loaded weight and trigger pull weight are to each other, the easier the gun is to shoot. Simple fact. This is why EVERYONE will always be able to shoot a 1911 better than any other combat HG.
You are right though, in that building a 1911 is an art and when people buy them, they should choose wisely (as some people know what they are doing and some don't).
Just as an FYI, I own a Ranson Rest and do accuracy testing on M&P's, Glock's and 1911's. There is ALWAYS one clear winner. ;)
C4
I'm so glad that this thread and my own thread really has opened my eyes. I'm 30, but have been shooting and preaching the 1911 is the way to go for years. I used to be comfortable with 8+1 and a reload but have wised up. Your recount of the average of 5 shots to bring the BG down really puts things in perspective. I now carry the M&P .40fs with 15+1 capacity. It was the right move.
One thing I'd like to know is what caliber were people useing when it took on average 5 shots? Thats the problem with statistics. They don't give the whole story.
From gun forums is seems most carry 9mm. So would it be safe to assume most of those shootings with an average of 5 shots were 9mm? Just saying... I could careless what you are carrying as long as your proficent with your firearm.
One thing I'd like to know is what caliber were people useing when it took on average 5 shots? Thats the problem with statistics. They don't give the whole story.
From gun forums is seems most carry 9mm. So would it be safe to assume most of those shootings with an average of 5 shots were 9mm? Just saying... I could careless what you are carrying as long as your proficent with your firearm.
When you hear how many shots were fired in a shooting it isn't necessarily what was needed to stop the other guy.
For instance, having a larger caliber firearm generally means that you will have a smaller capacity, and a slower rate of fire due to slower recoil recovery. So, if there is a 3 second window of combat, fewer accurate shots will be fired by the guy using the .40 or .45, than the guy using the high capacity 9mm(in general). Also, short of making a central nervious system hit, it takes time for a bad guy to be stopped by a handgun caliber(regardless of size/velocity). In a 3 second combat window at 7 yards, the .45 shooter may shoot 5-6 shots, but the 9mm shooter may deplete double that. Both shooters made lethal hits in the first few shots that will effectively stop the bad guy, but once again the stopping effects are not instant and by the time the bad guy hits the ground the 9mm shooter has kept up their rate of fire and put some extra lead on target.
Another thing to consider is that smaller calibers are more depended on good quality ammo to be effective. Most street shootings involve cheap firearms with cheap ammo, and perps with little to no marksmenship skills. The 9mm is easy to aquire, and cheap target loads are easy to get. Many low lifes that I have found weapons on use .22lr, .380, or 9mm, and their loaded magazines are filled with mix/match cartridges and are mostly FMJ. I've heard the same report from my friends in Vegas PD when they confiscate weapons. So, you'll often hear tales of shootings where someone gets shot 10 times with the 9mm and he walks to a payphone to call EMS. However, I've also seen a few shootings where someone was shot mulitple times with a .45 or a .357mag and they were also able to shake it off. It's up to the shooter to make the hits count regardless of caliber, otherwise you have to wait for the perp to bleed to death. Another good example of poor ammo and poor marksmenship is the old Stockton, CA shooting where the perp used an AK-47 with FMJ loads, shot 35 people at close range, and only 5 died:
http://www.uthr.org/SpecialReports/Martin%20Fackler,%20Stockton%20case.txt
The critical element in handgun effectiveness is penetration. You need adequate penetration to reach the large blood bearing organs of the body through heavy clothing and commonly encountered barriers. After that, you need a good wounding mechanism. If you read into McPherson's book, a flattened frontal area(expanded JHP or wadcutter) on a handgun bullet causes significant cutting and crushing of tissue as it passes through the body. A round nosed, or pointed projectile like the 9mm FMJ/NATO just pushes tissue out of the way and doesn't cause significant damage. Lastly, you need a bullet that is wide enough to damage as much area as possible. So, yes larger calibers technically cause more tissue damage.......but that priority is third on the list of terminal effects. Here's a good read:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
An oldie, but had never been proven wrong and is still as relivant today as it was 20 years ago.
Beat Trash
08-16-11, 12:30
I've owned a Wilson Millennium Protector (a low frills CQB made for a short time) that I bought in 2002. It's reliable and unbelievably accurate. The only semi auto handgun I own that is close to it as far as mechanical accuracy is a Sig 226 I bought in 2009.
I don't carry my Wilson though. I was carrying a Glock 19 off duty when I bought the Wilson.
This Wilson isn't my first experience with the 1911. I've been using 1911's since about 1983. I carried a Combat Commander before I became a LEO in 1993. The 1911's served my needs prior to my becoming a LEO. But the lighter weight and higher capacity of the Glock 19 off set any advantages the 1911 gave me personally.
I've carried a M&P9 as an issued gun since 2006, and have started carrying a M&P9c off duty instead of my faithful Glock 19 more and more.
Fast forward to today. I've posted before about the increase in multiple suspects when Aggravated Robberies are reported to my officers. It's more common to see 2-3 suspects involved vs. just one.
Now with the current issue Nation wide of flash mobs, the idea of higher capacity seems more important.
I'm not anti-1911. A well trained and experienced shooter of the 1911 can most definitely hold their own in a critical incident. If it works for you than carry on.
But a well trained and experienced shooter of the 1911 also knows the guns weaknesses as well as it's strengths. The gun does require more care and maintenance than some of the modern designs such as the Glock and M&P.
With the issues that WS6 has had with the 1911, his decision to stay away from the platform entirely was a prudent one.
Some people stay with the 1911 because of it works for them. But some people chose the 1911 for emotional reasons, or because they perceive it makes them appear to be an "expert" among the crowd they associate with.
For a person looking for a defensive handgun to carry daily with no prior experience, it's hard to make the argument for a 1911. I think for most, their carry gun needs can be adequately handled by either the M&P, Glock or HK.
Alaskapopo
08-16-11, 13:00
Never shot or owned a reliable 1911, I'm glad you got a good one and all the stars aligned with it. I am truly convinced that since Wilson told me ALL the specs on my gun were gone over the 2nd time it was in their shop for repairs and it was perfect, that there is an "intangible" that goes into a 1911 that wont shit the bed every couple dozen rounds or so.
I guess I could keep buying and returning Wilson's until I got one like yours...but why?
As to the AR-15's I have shot that were a mess...
My Sabre Defense had a bolt that was out of spec. Replaced it and it stopped shaving brass.
My friend had a mutt he built and the M855 we shot was snagging on the feed-ramp because the barrel feed-ramps and the reciever had a gap that the tips got into.
Both easily traceable problems. With the 1911, extractor tension effects ejection AND feeding. Epic fail, there. I could go on and on about why the 1911 is inferior, but the competition shooters will keep chanting "trigger trigger trigger trigger" while the people who actually use the guns for things that matter more than ego will quietly tuck their Glocks, HK's, and SIGs into their holsters and go about their business.
Actually I have owned several good 1911's and still own 3 that run great for competition. 1 of those is a former duty weapon. Sig triggers like all DA auto triggers have a long reset and suck for shooting fast. They are fine for slow fire accruacy but when you need to pick up the speed they slow you down. Funny your comment about people who actually use their guns. Hmm like LAPD SWAT, FBI's HRT team and so on and so forth. They use custom 1911's. Your comments are without merit based on your limited sample size of a few guns. The 1911 does have its weaknesess but it also has its strengths. When it comes time to put lead in the bad guys accurately in a hurry there is no better gun. Some of the most respected tactical firearms instructors carry 1911's. Few carry sigs.
Pat
Alaskapopo
08-16-11, 13:02
I agree that the 1911 can still kill things dead, but as your lifestyle indicates, there are better tools for the job.
If you want to talk about a reliable weapon that is accurate, the P210 is one that deserves mention. It does everything that the 1911 wishes it could, and is more accurate, has at LEAST as good a trigger, and doesn't require a bunch of custom fitting to run right/accurate.
The Sig 210 has a shitty safety, slow magazine release system and is not more accurate than a custom 1911.
Pat
Phillygunguy
08-16-11, 13:12
I'm not a leo but I own several 1911's including a SA TRP Ive put about 3000 round and had maybe 2 ftf I hate plastic guns I do own 2 glocks a g26 and g 30 and already I had a problem with a magazine on the g 30 but I carry my Springfield. Sure the 1911 has problems but if you go into it knowing that ahead of time I think it can serve you well.Im a big guy and I have no problem C C ing a full size 1911 To me it seems like people have this spray and pray concept and want hi cap mags . I live n Philly and see dirt bags at the range with glocks shooting as fast as they can and missing everything I'm sure a lot of people will say my opinion isn't worth anything because I didn't study with so and so and I'm a civi But I dont care its my 2 cents
To me it seems like people have this spray and pray concept and want hi cap mags . I live n Philly and see dirt bags at the range with glocks shooting as fast as they can and missing everything I'm sure a lot of people will say my opinion isn't worth anything because I didn't study with so and so and I'm a civi But I dont care its my 2 cents
I think you're going to find that there are very few people that resource this forum that follow the spray and pray concept. Comparing people here to what you witnessed there is beyond apples and oranges. It's been stated here several times that multiple assailants are a big contributing factor to people's choice of gun.
I don't think your opinion isn't worth anything. But I do think it's highly incorrect in that regard.
Phillygunguy
08-16-11, 13:49
I can respect that as I dont go into harms way on a daily basis like a lot of people on here. But for me I think the 1911 works just fine
Most 1911's will shoot 1-1.5" groups at 50yds NOT 25yds. ;)
Most, huh? Find me an example of this garden-variety 1" at 50 yards grouping 1911.
The mechanical ability of most popular guns is there (which a Ransom Rest will show). There is just one problem with that though. It doesn't translate into the same accuracy when fired by a human.
I agree, which is why no-one shoots a 1911 at 50 yard competition. They shoot a P210.
Why you ask? Simple. The 1911's loaded weight ratio to trigger pull weight is nearly ideal. My CQB's loaded weight is just over 3LBS with a trigger pull of 3.5LBS. This is almost a one to one ratio.
I was unaware of this and it's intriguing. Do you have a link to more data on this ideal?
My G17 has a loaded weight of 2LBS with a trigger pull weight of over 6LBS. The trigger pull weight is TRIPLE the the weight of the gun.
The closer the loaded weight and trigger pull weight are to each other, the easier the gun is to shoot. Simple fact. This is why EVERYONE will always be able to shoot a 1911 better than any other combat HG.
Again, strongly disagree, and cite 50m competition and the P210.
You are right though, in that building a 1911 is an art and when people buy them, they should choose wisely (as some people know what they are doing and some don't).
I had thought I had with Les Baer and Wilson Combat. I still ended up with boat anchors.
Just as an FYI, I own a Ranson Rest and do accuracy testing on M&P's, Glock's and 1911's. There is ALWAYS one clear winner. ;)
I don't, so I can't argue that from a fact-based standpoint.
C4
And yet...you still don't trust your life to a 1911 for daily carry. Your words are compelling, but your actions are telling. ;)
The Sig 210 has a shitty safety, slow magazine release system and is not more accurate than a custom 1911.
Pat
The new one has a safety that works just fine, a mag release nearly identical to the 1911. Saying that it's not more accurate than a custom 1911 is like saying that your turbocharged civic is just as good as a stock corvette.
Actually I have owned several good 1911's and still own 3 that run great for competition. 1 of those is a former duty weapon. So what do you carry now? It appears NOT a 1911. Sig triggers like all DA auto triggers have a long reset and suck for shooting fast. My P226 with the SRT has a decently short reset.They are fine for slow fire accruacy but when you need to pick up the speed they slow you down. Funny your comment about people who actually use their guns. Hmm like LAPD SWAT, FBI's HRT team and so on and so forth. They use custom 1911's. Your comments are without merit based on your limited sample size of a few guns. The 1911 does have its weaknesess but it also has its strengths. When it comes time to put lead in the bad guys accurately in a hurry there is no better gun. Some of the most respected tactical firearms instructors carry 1911's. They carry what their sponsors give them/pay them to carry half the time. Look how often you see them with a different side-arm at those classes. Few carry sigs.
Pat
FAM's carry the SIG, the USSS carries the SIG, etc.
However, just because some agency carries it doesn't mean its a good choice. Do you have a PS90 because the USSS does?
Also, those agencies, according to Hilton Yam, are being foolhardy if they don't have 2 1911's per operator for when one goes down. What other side-arm has major and knowledgeable proponents that recommend an officer have two for when one inevitably breaks and is stuck at the armorer's?
Some people stay with the 1911 because of it works for them. But some people chose the 1911 for emotional reasons, or because they perceive it makes them appear to be an "expert" among the crowd they associate with.
And there it is. Unfortunately, many cant separate the two. And think the 1911 is "what works for them".
Rarely do we get an objective discussion.
I was taught to shoot a 1911, by the original armorer to Delta(RIP). I still own his personal gun. I've been thru a few 1911's over the years, all but two were Colts that I had worked over. An early SA that was crap, and a early Kimber that got tuned up a bit. Most of them are gone. The reasons are many and few at the same time.
I could sight cost, weight, maintenance, replacement parts, yada yada...
In the end, i took an objective look at shit.
- It only holds 7 rounds.
-I don't consider the .45 to be all that more effective then the 9mm or .40
-I don't really shoot them all that better
- I had a few bad instances with a grip safety and flight gloves, I ignored it at first, but, then I got honest with myself
- I had a thumb safety crack. Ok, shit happens, but it had to go back to the smith that did the work, to fit a new one, bevel it, finish it, etc.
etc etc
Many of the units that you think are carrying 1911's aren't, or at least not to the extent you think they are. FBI HRT, for one.
I don't really follow the competition circuit, but I'm sure you do not have to go to far to find Glock and M&P shooters that can "put lead in the bad guys, accurately and in a hurry".
Also lets compare apples to apples:
A mass produced 4-500 dollar Glock vs a mass produced 4-500 dollar 1911.
I'm willing to bet a custom tuned G-lock or M&P with stippling, trigger job, and match barrel could more then hold its own against the same type 1911.
Bob
And yet...you still don't trust your life to a 1911 for daily carry. Your words are compelling, but your actions are telling. ;)
LOL, no. I don't carry a 1911 everyday because of the size and weight. As a home defense gun, I am fan of more rounds in a gun (as what is in the gun is most likely all I am going to have available). Neither of the two have anything to do with its reliability.
So for the record, I would trust my life with MY WC CQB. There are 1911's that I would not though. Hell, there are Glock's, SIG's and M&P's that I wouldn't trust either. ;)
C4
And there it is. Unfortunately, many cant separate the two. And think the 1911 is "what works for them".
Rarely do we get an objective discussion.
I was taught to shoot a 1911, by the original armorer to Delta(RIP). I still own his personal gun. I've been thru a few 1911's over the years, all but two were Colts that I had worked over. An early SA that was crap, and a early Kimber that got tuned up a bit. Most of them are gone. The reasons are many and few at the same time.
I could sight cost, weight, maintenance, replacement parts, yada yada...
In the end, i took an objective look at shit.
- It only holds 7 rounds.
-I don't consider the .45 to be all that more effective then the 9mm or .40
-I don't really shoot them all that better
- I had a few bad instances with a grip safety and flight gloves, I ignored it at first, but, then I got honest with myself
- I had a thumb safety crack. Ok, shit happens, but it had to go back to the smith that did the work, to fit a new one, bevel it, finish it, etc.
etc etc
Many of the units that you think are carrying 1911's aren't, or at least not to the extent you think they are. FBI HRT, for one.
I don't really follow the competition circuit, but I'm sure you do not have to go to far to find Glock and M&P shooters that can "put lead in the bad guys, accurately and in a hurry".
Also lets compare apples to apples:
A mass produced 4-500 dollar Glock vs a mass produced 4-500 dollar 1911.
I'm willing to bet a custom tuned G-lock or M&P with stippling, trigger job, and match barrel could more then hold its own against the same type 1911.
Bob
I would normally say that you are 100% correct. With the S&W E-Series and CURRENT production Colt 1911's (all of which are sub $1,000) I don't know if that argument is accurate any more.
YMMV.
C4
I haven't checked the prices on 1911's lately, but the last I saw a Colt Rail gun was right at $1000, or $999
A Glock, even a non LE priced one, is in the $550 range. A "-" connector, a little polishing, if that's your thing, some grip tape, and a good set of sight( a wash, if you want night sights, the Colt doesn't come with them) and your very much in the running.
Bob
I haven't checked the prices on 1911's lately, but the last I saw a Colt Rail gun was right at $1000, or $999
A Glock, even a non LE priced one, is in the $550 range. A "-" connector, a little polishing, if that's your thing, some grip tape, and a good set of sight( a wash, if you want night sights, the Colt doesn't come with them) and your very much in the running.
Bob
Colt Rail Gun's are right around $1k. S&W E-Series are around $1k as well (with NS's).
C4
I'm going to stick with the fact that all these 1911 fans who don't use it for anything but competition have proved my point for me. There are better firearms out there to trust with your life, and even they admit to it through their actions.
I'm going to stick with the fact that all these 1911 fans who don't use it for anything but competition have proved my point for me. There are better firearms out there to trust with your life, and even they admit to it through their actions.
I don't shoot competition and am also going to guess that my WC CQB has more training hours logged than most people have with ALL their HG's.
C4
turdbocharged
08-18-11, 15:28
I don't shoot competition and am also going to guess that my WC CQB has more training hours logged than most people have with ALL their HG's.
C4
I've seen this piece in person. I believe what Grant is saying 100%. That WC has a lot of "character" :).
Some people like the nostalgia of the 1911, or the tinkering you can do with one, but the only real justification I can come up with for owning one is as a toy. (ie. to shoot matches, enjoy the feel of the workmanship on if you get a nice one, as a piece of history, etc. etc.)
Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
I've seen plenty of Glocks fail...too many to count.
No gun is the end all be all, but if you want to drink polymer Koolaid, well drink up.
If you want to talk about a reliable weapon that is accurate, the P210 is one that deserves mention. It does everything that the 1911 wishes it could, and is more accurate, has at LEAST as good a trigger, and doesn't require a bunch of custom fitting to run right/accurate.
The SIG 210 was and is now again made by SIG. Any one else make 'em??
The 1911 is not so much one pistol, but many different variations on a design made by many different manufacturers in many different countries. Of course there are going to be issues. So friggin what? If a shooter wants to use one and is willing to do what he needs to do to maintain one, what do you care?
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