View Full Version : Fair Price To Pay Gunsmith for AA Piston Install?
I just bought my Adam's Arms piston kit for the DDM4 and was interested in having a gunsmih install so I don't screw up my barrel removing the standard front sight. What have others paid to have it installed?
Thanks,
Leonidas24
07-27-11, 22:25
In my personal opinion I wouldn't install an AA kit on ANY DD rifle. It's hard to enhance something as awesome as perfection.
.
I would think you couldn't pay a good AR gunsmith enough to do that job.
Mainly, because a "good 'smith" would refuse to blaspheme a DD in such a way.
But maybe it's just me...
.
SomeOtherGuy
07-27-11, 22:48
I'll try to be a little more helpful. I would guess roughly an hour of labor if it's as easy as AA says, and the gunsmith is familiar with the AR15. I don't know what typical gunsmith hourly rates are but I'm going to make a WAG of $60-100.
If you are moderately mechanically inclined it really should be a DIY job, which AA claims up, down and sideways that it is.
I personally wouldn't consider a piston kit an upgrade to a quality DI gun, but you've obviously already made that decision for yourself.
SomeOtherGuy
07-27-11, 22:50
Also, I've recently removed FSBs on two DD guns and it was not unreasonably difficult. Use the proper punch and support the gas block (not just the barrel) with a block of wood or something, and it should go quite easily. If you're really worried apply some Kroil to both ends of the pins several hours to a day beforehand.
Super Mall Ninja
07-27-11, 22:56
Don't install the AA kit.
I wouldn't do that to a Daniel Defense either. In fact I've never heard of anyone doing that to one. Really a bad idea. Usually you hear of them slapped on Bushmasters, DPMS, etc. which doesn't make you wince as much.
wetidlerjr
07-27-11, 23:50
I'd go with the $60-100 range. It shouldn't take any gunsmith more than an hour. Seeing how it is YOUR rifle, I see no problem with anything YOU do with it. Besides, it is entirely reversible in the same amount of time. :D
I think the consensus on this site will be to sell the piston kit to someone on TOS and run your DD as-is. Why do you feel the need to 'upgrade' this amazing rifle?
Raven Armament
07-28-11, 00:04
Staying out of the quality of parts debate, my charge would be $50/hr half hour minimum. If you wanted it range tested/tuned, clock keeps ticking and you're buying or supplying the ammo.
Be very very careful here, they may try and charge you as much as $1,000 for the piston install.
As I'm betting that if they think that you are foolish enough to buy the piston kit for a DD M4, you might be foolish enough to pay the fee.
Cameron
Agreed it should be somewhere around the $60-$100 range.
Also agreed that it's a poor idea to put ANY piston kit on a DDM4, let alone an Adams arms kit.
It's like putting an APC short ram intake on a ferrari....
In my personal opinion I wouldn't install an AA kit on ANY DD rifle. It's hard to enhance something as awesome as perfection.
i would look at ''osprey defense'' its a 12 min job and NO permanent mods to the weapon before the AA set up ! i have seen one aa piston roll off a table on stone floor and break into two !!over harden plus 1000 some rounds to the mix !! now spare parts of a odd set up to get = TOY ! sorry but the osprey defense can be demoded from in mins easy..
I've done one of these. Too bad you aren't local. I'd do it for free
The hardest part was installing the bushing in the upper. It was a tight fit. The osprey looks pretty weak if I'm looking at it correctly. I wouldn't want to rely on a roll pin to hold anything other than the gas tube. (looks like it has an actual steel pin is used in place of the original roll pin. Still doesn't appear as robust as the Adams Arms kit)
Underwhere
07-28-11, 20:21
It shouldn't be hard at all. My guess is 1 hours time or less.
You're going to like the piston setup.
I just bought my Adam's Arms piston kit for the DDM4 and was interested in having a gunsmih install so I don't screw up my barrel removing the standard front sight. What have others paid to have it installed?
Thanks,
I just have to ask, why would you do that to the DD???
C4
.
I would think you couldn't pay a good AR gunsmith enough to do that job.
Mainly, because a "good 'smith" would refuse to blaspheme a DD in such a way.
But maybe it's just me...
.
I know I would turn it down.
C4
Suwannee Tim
07-28-11, 20:46
You are a blasphemer, Willie, a blasphemer. In the good old days, 1692 or 1693 you would have been burned at the stake. In other times, 1870 or so, you would have been tarred and feathered. Humanity was not blessed with DI until 1956 when Lord Stoner bestowed it upon us. Lucky for you, we no longer burn blasphemers at the stake or tar and feather them. Now we just brow beat them. And such is your fate.
Half an hour to an hour. Fifty to a hundred bucks. Do it yourself. It's no big deal.
crusader377
07-28-11, 21:09
I just bought my Adam's Arms piston kit for the DDM4 and was interested in having a gunsmih install so I don't screw up my barrel removing the standard front sight. What have others paid to have it installed?
Thanks,
Why would you take a perfectly good rifle and put a crappy piston kit on it?:confused:
What's up with all the thread crapping?
What's up with all the thread crapping?
Thread crapping or attempting to save someone from spending money on something that isn't needed and is generally considered a poor idea?
C4
Thread crapping or attempting to save someone from spending money on something that isn't needed and is generally considered a poor idea?
C4
I've seen money spent on much worse stuff. I had no problems with the Adams arms kit I had, but must admit that I didn't own it very long. Rainier Arms sells a lot of their stuff. Must say somethhing about its quality.
mkmckinley
07-28-11, 22:42
Rainier Arms is great shop but that doesn't mean the AA kit is a great idea. I've actually heard RA employees talk people out of the various piston systems at their retail location. I suppose they stock pistons because there is customer demand but I wouldn't say they necessarily endorse them.
I've seen money spent on much worse stuff. I had no problems with the Adams arms kit I had, but must admit that I didn't own it very long. Rainier Arms sells a lot of their stuff. Must say somethhing about its quality.
Really? I really cannot think of many other ways to waste money worse than this.
Dealers stock products that make them money. Very few of them actually use the products they sell, know anything about them or even like them. So don't judge a products quality because some dealer sells it.
The above was not directed at RA, just a generalization.
C4
Really? I really cannot think of many other ways to waste money worse than this.
What negatives have you found in the Adams Arms piston kits?
What negatives have you found in the Adams Arms piston kits?
I'm not trying to speak for Grant, but it goes back to the opinion (that many of us here hold) that piston ARs are a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
Really? I really cannot think of many other ways to waste money worse than this.
Dealers stock products that make them money. Very few of them actually use the products they sell, know anything about them or even like them. So don't judge a products quality because some dealer sells it.
The above was not directed at RA, just a generalization.
C4
I'm not trying to speak for Grant, but it goes back to the opinion (that many of us here hold) that piston ARs are a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
So no real negatives, just opinions. Gotcha.
.
I think the bigger question is, "What contributed to the decision to add a piston kit to a fine weapon like a DD?" I think a lot of people have wondered this but ...???
If this would have been about adding an AA Kit to BushMaster or DPMS, I doubt this Thread would have had 5 posts ... but a DD...puhleezeee!
So, let's get an answer to the above question ....maybe we should all be installing AA Kits! Enlighten us...
But maybe it's just me...
.
Flamesuit on,
I put an AA on a S&W mp15 back in 08. It was an experiment, and I was surprized! In f/a no less. Innovation gave us the DI system. People tend to become creatures of habit. There is nothing wrong with a piston( okay let me have it ), and there is nothing wrong with a DI.
This is not a slam on either.
60 or 100 bucks max. But, Do it yourself. If you have built an ar you can do it. Hell, if I can, anyone can.
So no real negatives, just opinions. Gotcha.
Expense. Increased recoil. Extra moving parts. Non-standard parts. Substandard parts. Increased wear. Weight increase (though marginal). Gun becomes more problematic. Does t actually solve any problems, just introduces new ones. This is all from my first hand experience with AA kits.
In short, they're dumb.
Expense. Increased recoil. Extra moving parts. Non-standard parts. Substandard parts. Increased wear. Weight increase (though marginal). Gun becomes more problematic. Does t actually solve any problems, just introduces new ones. This is all from my first hand experience with AA kits.
In short, they're dumb.
So what problems exactly? I didn't notice much change in recoil. What wears more and what is problematic? I also noticed less carbon build up on the bolt.
mkmckinley
07-29-11, 01:12
So no real negatives, just opinions. Gotcha.
Yep, just opinions. Gotta remember, though, that some opinions are worth more than others. The opinions of the many subject matter experts on this site, gained through experience, are worth a hell of a lot. Lucky for you you get to hear them for free. Instead of getting snide maybe you should take the opportunity to learn from their opinions and maybe improve your own. You've gotten some good, free input on here. Take it for what it's worth.
JR TACTICAL
07-29-11, 01:35
I knew this guy was going to get smoked on here as soon as I read this. I made the mistake of doing this to a RRA gun on here and posted some questions and got lit up for having a piston even on a RRA. I learned the hard way and now own a DD and love it I will never look back.
I think he needs some :help:
Here are some threads on why not to use a piston system but in the end do whatever you want, its your firearm
www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-75117.html
m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=29852&highlight=piston&page=4
The main reason I did not go back to the piston is because of all the information I recieved on this website and the pro and cons are not worth it to me. Use the SEARCH and do some reasearch and im sure you will send it back and use the money for training or ammo or mags ect.
As my message stated earlier if you absolutely are sold on it I will help you out as I have done many of theese for customers of mine that "had to have" a piston on their rifle but I would advise against it as will most of the people on this forum.
Good luck and let me know if you need some help
Suwannee Tim
07-29-11, 04:56
I bought my piston AR for the best possible reason, to find out for myself. And so I did. I now know that folks that vehemently insist the piston is worthless, that DI is far superior are speaking from emotion and ideology not reason. Our OP will learn first hand the same thing.
Littlelebowski
07-29-11, 06:05
What negatives have you found in the Adams Arms piston kits?
What positives have you found? What classes have you taken this setup to?
wetidlerjr
07-29-11, 06:18
The "Weeping, Wailing, Rending Of Garments, and Gnashing Of Teeth" on here whenever an add-on gas piston is mentioned is almost comical. :D I have a BM upper converted to a piston with an AA kit and it has been pretty much 100% since day one. I also have two DI uppers that are also near flawless.
My take on what others do with their rifles is "What YOU do with YOUR rifle, in the end, is YOUR business." As long as you don't expect me to pay for it; have at it. :cool:
What positives have you found? What classes have you taken this setup to?
Never took it to a class. Never had any problems with it though. I haven't really heard many negatives about them either. People saying they are stupid or that they cause extra wear but then don't say what kind of wear is not a good eniogh reason for me to stear clear of them. I did notice that it ran cleaner and cooler if that means anything to you. Heat can't be good for anything.
Yep, just opinions. Gotta remember, though, that some opinions are worth more than others. The opinions of the many subject matter experts on this site, gained through experience, are worth a hell of a lot. Lucky for you you get to hear them for free. Instead of getting snide maybe you should take the opportunity to learn from their opinions and maybe improve your own. You've gotten some good, free input on here. Take it for what it's worth.
If the sme's on here would actually give some reasons to not have one maybe I'd be more inclined to listen but all I have seen is thread crapping on the op. Just because I Have a low post count doesn't mean I have no experience with the AR platform, but I do admit that I didn't have the piston set up very long but it worked good for me as it has for people that I know who have ran the crap out of them. All 3 of my AR's I currently own are DI, but I would try another piston. I don't have any loyalty to one or the other as long as they work.
If the sme's on here would actually give some reasons to not have one maybe
sure sure
http://www.milcopptactical.com/piston.htm
What negatives have you found in the Adams Arms piston kits?
What is good about them or ANY other piston kit for that matter?
C4
Expense. Increased recoil. Extra moving parts. Non-standard parts. Substandard parts. Increased wear. Weight increase (though marginal). Gun becomes more problematic. Does t actually solve any problems, just introduces new ones. This is all from my first hand experience with AA kits.
In short, they're dumb.
You also forgot reduced accuracy. The piston is basically moving before the bullet has left the barrel. Not the case with a DI system.
C4
Yep, just opinions. Gotta remember, though, that some opinions are worth more than others. The opinions of the many subject matter experts on this site, gained through experience, are worth a hell of a lot. Lucky for you you get to hear them for free. Instead of getting snide maybe you should take the opportunity to learn from their opinions and maybe improve your own. You've gotten some good, free input on here. Take it for what it's worth.
BINGO! Not all opinions carry the same weight.
C4
I bought my piston AR for the best possible reason, to find out for myself. And so I did. I now know that folks that vehemently insist the piston is worthless, that DI is far superior are speaking from emotion and ideology not reason. Our OP will learn first hand the same thing.
I wouldn't say that a piston system is "worthless" but I WOULD say that any drop in piston system is.
I am somewhat warm and fuzzy to a gun built from the ground up to use a piston system. At this point though, no AR on the market (whether it has a factory built in piston or not) is worth it.
The closest we come to a quality piston AR is the HK 416. Having fired many of them, they do not compare to the AR's I build for myself. They are not as accurate, have way more recoil and are much heavier. Oh and if I need a spare part to fix it, I am SOL.
Pass.
C4
I wouldn't say that a piston system is "worthless" but I WOULD say that any drop in piston system is.
I am somewhat warm and fuzzy to a gun built from the ground up to use a piston system. At this point though, no AR on the market (whether it has a factory built in piston or not) is worth it.
The closest we come to a quality piston AR is the HK 416. Having fired many of them, they do not compare to the AR's I build for myself. They are not as accurate, have way more recoil and are much heavier. Oh and if I need a spare part to fix it, I am SOL.
Pass.
C4
Thanks. That's the kind of answer I was waiting for. What do you think of the LMT piston set up?
Thanks. That's the kind of answer I was waiting for. What do you think of the LMT piston set up?
LMT piston systems look very nice I think. If I HAD TO HAVE a retrofitted AR with a piston on it, I would look at PWS and LMT.
At this point though, I cannot think of a single reason to own a piston equipped AR.
C4
GeorgiaBoy
07-29-11, 11:12
Most guys wanting to install pistons on AR's have no experience with AR's at all, most likely just bought one and have few rounds downrange, and think a piston kit is a good idea because of the "AR's are dirty and unreliable" propaganda spewed on the internet.
If you are so hell-bent on having a piston gun, get an AK in the first place.
I am really starting to feel for that DD. I almost want to send it a card or some flowers. :p ;)
Most guys wanting to install pistons on AR's have no experience with AR's at all, most likely just bought one and have few rounds downrange, and think a piston kit is a good idea because of the "AR's are dirty and unreliable" propaganda spewed on the internet.
If you are so hell-bent on having a piston gun, get an AK in the first place.
I am really starting to feel for that DD. I almost want to send it a card or some flowers. :p ;)
Agree. Most of us that shoot a lot (5K or more a year with the bulk of those rounds being shot in schools) have no interest in piston guns.
It seems like guys that don't shoot a lot or can't stand to clean anything think piston AR's are a good idea.
An AK is a great choice for a piston driven weapon I think. I have an Arsenal chambered in 5.56 and it is great!
C4
GeorgiaBoy
07-29-11, 11:32
An AK is a great choice for a piston driven weapon I think. I have an Arsenal chambered in 5.56 and it is great!
C4
The negative thing that occasionally happens new shooters that come to the AK first is that they will develop the "anti-AR" standpoint and continue to spread the "AR's are dirty and unreliable, only pistons are good" agenda.
I like both weapons as well.
As the saying goes: "AR's are more reliable they than they are given credit for, and AK's are more accurate."
bakercountyboy
07-29-11, 12:03
i shoot a stag m8 and love it. i have nothing against piston ar's. but i would NEVER put a piston kit on a DI. especially on a DD. DD rifles are the SHIT. if you own a DD, you practically wake up and piss excellence :dirol: no need to change perfection!
Littlelebowski
07-29-11, 12:09
I bought my piston AR for the best possible reason, to find out for myself. And so I did. I now know that folks that vehemently insist the piston is worthless, that DI is far superior are speaking from emotion and ideology not reason. Our OP will learn first hand the same thing.
My "ideology" is "the piston is money wasted that I could spend on training or ammo. It also is not more reliable nor more accurate."
Do you find that emotional?
I like my piston ar, I like my DIs ar, i like my aks and I like my slingshot too. Maybe I just got the best one AA ever put out.
If you want to know the difference between piston and DI, here goes. Slight increase n recoil(5.56 guys, don't be a wus), maybe slightly more weight (I know ounces =pounds),but it's negligible to me. It's more accurate than I am(not saying much). Other than that, I couldn't tell you.
The LMT and PWS are top quality but I can only speak on my little frankenstien.
Bottom line, it's your money. But it's not the holy Grail and it's not the anti-Christ. It's a rifle. Shoot one and decide.
wetidlerjr
07-29-11, 13:36
The Adams Arms kit I used added no noticeable weight and parts are available. The recoil wasn't any different ( that I could tell) and accuracy was unchanged.
This was based on my personal experience in a "before and after" comparison of the converted rifle. The conversion was neither better or worse except it did run cleaner. As usual, YMMV.
But then,again, "Who am I ?" I still like revolvers and 1911s when polymer "Wonder Pistols" are available for all to slobber over. Will I ever learn ? :D
My "ideology" is "the piston is money wasted that I could spend on training or ammo. It also is not more reliable nor more accurate."
I would think that Larry Vickers & his former Unit would disagree with you regarding a certain gun, but I think the average person is better off with a high quality DI AR like a Colt/Bravo Company/Daniel Defense/Etc.
Having said that the thought of doing a piston conversion to a Daniel Defense would make me feel like I have bad food poisoning.
Oh wait, I DO have bad food poisoning, though this smily does not do it justice :bad:
The Adams Arms kit I used added no noticeable weight and parts are available. The recoil wasn't any different ( that I could tell) and accuracy was unchanged.
This was based on my personal experience in a "before and after" comparison of the converted rifle. The conversion was neither better or worse except it did run cleaner. As usual, YMMV.
But then,again, "Who am I ?" I still like revolvers and 1911s when polymer "Wonder Pistols" are available for all to slobber over. Will I ever learn ? :D
There is a weight difference it is on the muzzle end (bad). The recoil is more as well, but if it is already over gassed, it might not be apparent.
If the gun is a 3-4MOA gun or you are shoot crappy XM193/wolf ammo, then you most likely cannot tell any accuracy difference.
As far as parts availability, when you go to a carbine class, does the guy next to you have spare parts for the piston? How about the BCG? What about the local gun shop? Do they have parts for it? Any of your neighbors? This is what we means when we say "parts availability."
At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, what did it fix???
C4
I would think that Larry Vickers & his former Unit would disagree with you regarding a certain gun, but I think the average person is better off with a high quality DI AR like a Colt/Bravo Company/Daniel Defense/Etc.
Having said that the thought of doing a piston conversion to a Daniel Defense would make me feel like I have bad food poisoning.
Oh wait, I DO have bad food poisoning, though this smily does not do it justice :bad:
Of all of them, the 416 is the best. I am told though (by actual T1 users) that they are having as many issues (broken bolts, cracked receivers, etc). So at this point, there is almost no benefit to them.
C4
wetidlerjr
07-29-11, 14:33
There is a weight difference it is on the muzzle end (bad). The recoil is more as well, but if it is already over gassed, it might not be apparent.
If the gun is a 3-4MOA gun or you are shoot crappy XM193/wolf ammo, then you most likely cannot tell any accuracy difference.
As far as parts availability, when you go to a carbine class, does the guy next to you have spare parts for the piston? How about the BCG? What about the local gun shop? Do they have parts for it? Any of your neighbors? This is what we means when we say "parts availability."
At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, what did it fix???
C4
No classes and since this isn't my HD, "go to" or "Zombie Defense" upper and my other AR was (and is) DI, it's all a moot point in the end. I'm just stating the facts of my situation and nothing more. This upper has been replaced by a BCM w/Govt. profile 16" barrel with all the "bells and whistles" so trying to convince me of of the horrors of a piston conversion is a waste of bandwidth. I have, quite awhile back, decided to go with a DI rifle for my needs. Also, I know what "parts availability" means and there is no need to ask myself as I wasn't fixing anything. With me, you are "preaching to the choir". :D
Suwannee Tim
07-29-11, 14:42
He's already spent the money ya'll. Might as well put the kit on and try it out.
My "ideology" is "the piston is money wasted that I could spend on training or ammo. It also is not more reliable nor more accurate."
Do you find that emotional?
No, that's pretty reasonable. Reasonable people disagree. The ideologues rant and fume.
....The recoil wasn't any different ( that I could tell) and accuracy was unchanged.
This was based on my personal experience in a "before and after" comparison of the converted rifle. The conversion was neither better or worse except it did run cleaner.....
Before and after comparisons are good. Side by side comparisons are better. Based on my side by side comparison I would say the recoil isn't any different and accuracy is the same. The piston is cleaner.
No classes and since this isn't my HD, "go to" or "Zombie Defense" upper and my other AR was (and is) DI, it's all a moot point in the end. I'm just stating the facts of my situation and nothing more. This upper has been replaced by a BCM w/Govt. profile 16" barrel with all the "bells and whistles" so trying to convince me of of the horrors of a piston conversion is a waste of bandwidth. I have, quite awhile back, decided to go with a DI rifle for my needs. Also, I know what "parts availability" means and there is no need to ask myself as I wasn't fixing anything. With me, you are "preaching to the choir". :D
My comments were incase someone was reading your post and thought it was a justification for a piston conversion.
It didn't necessarily apply to you.
C4
Of all of them, the 416 is the best. I am told though (by actual T1 users) that they are having as many issues (broken bolts, cracked receivers, etc). So at this point, there is almost no benefit to them.
C4
I agree with C4
I believe there is only 1 benefit to a piston system over a DI system....
When the guns are used in an environment where they may be fired after being submerged in water, the DI gun can 'hydraulic" if it is not drained properly. A piston gun will not. It has no gas system to fill up with water.
DI systems absorb and dampen alot of the shock, whereas piston systems feel (to me) alot "harder" hitting. The parts of a piston rifle have less of a cushion and take more shock abuse.
He's already spent the money ya'll. Might as well put the kit on and try it out.
I wouldn't. Sell it and spend the money on training and ammo. Money MUCH better spent.
C4
What failures are you having that makes you think this will solve the problem?
Funny how each and every bullshit justification for adding a piston to an AR take the thread to "it's just a range toy".
M4C, (I thought) was about serious carbines, not bullshit toy shit.
mkmckinley
07-29-11, 23:40
M4C, (I thought) was about serious carbines, not bullshit toy shit.
I totally agree. there has been a disturbing trend by newer users toward the Arfcom paradigm in the last few months. This thread is typical of it. Someone shows up and demands a rehash of some old discussion instead of just doing the research themselves. It's unfortunate because it distracts from more interesting discussions.
I think people fail to understand that what makes this site so valuable is that it's set up for people who actually train with their weapons and use them for a living. It's one of the only sites that does that. Once you start injecting unqualified bullshit, defending your ego, going on about "range toys" etc. you risk taking away from that value. We are blessed to get input, for free, from guys like Larry Vickers, Dr. Roberts, C4IGrant, Rob Jensen, Gunz, Rob S. etc. whose experience using, training with, studying, building, designing, selling, modern weapons and techniques is vast. Instead of arguing with them sit back and listen to what they have to say.
I totally agree. there has been a disturbing trend by newer users toward the Arfcom paradigm in the last few months. This thread is typical of it. Someone shows up and demands a rehash of some old discussion instead of just doing the research themselves. It's unfortunate because it distracts from more interesting discussions.
I think people fail to understand that what makes this site so valuable is that it's set up for people who actually train with their weapons and use them for a living. It's one of the only sites that does that. Once you start injecting unqualified bullshit, defending your ego, going on about "range toys" etc. you risk taking away from that value. We are blessed to get input, for free, from guys like Larry Vickers, Dr. Roberts, C4IGrant, Rob Jensen, Gunz, Rob S. etc. whose experience using, training with, studying, building, designing, selling, modern weapons and techniques is vast. Instead of arguing with them sit back and listen to what they have to say.
I really don't even have a problem with the OP's rehashing old shit.
The serious problem I have is with morons piping in trying to attack smarter people than them, when they most often gently try to correct the OP's wrongheadedness.
People who ask naive or uninformed questions are one thing, and are eminently excusable and even to be welcomed. Shitheads who then demand we "answer their questions" regardless of whether the OP lifted a finger helped themselves, or how misguided the question is, need to be just STFU.
For the record, I think converting a quality AR to piston drive is a bad idea. Just like I think setting fire to $200 is a bad idea. If you want to do it anyway, fine, but that doesn't stop it from being a bad idea.
Suwannee Tim
07-30-11, 06:28
I wouldn't. Sell it and spend the money on training and ammo. Money MUCH better spent.
C4
That or send it back. If I wanted another piston gun I would buy our build one complete. The additional cost of buying DI then converting to piston really works against the marginal benefits of the piston.
I bought my piston AR for the best possible reason, to find out for myself. And so I did. I now know that folks that vehemently insist the piston is worthless, that DI is far superior are speaking from emotion and ideology not reason. Our OP will learn first hand the same thing.
I agree they just can bear the thought of something being better than a DI gun.
I totally agree. there has been a disturbing trend by newer users toward the Arfcom paradigm in the last few months. This thread is typical of it. Someone shows up and demands a rehash of some old discussion instead of just doing the research themselves. It's unfortunate because it distracts from more interesting discussions.
I think people fail to understand that what makes this site so valuable is that it's set up for people who actually train with their weapons and use them for a living. It's one of the only sites that does that. Once you start injecting unqualified bullshit, defending your ego, going on about "range toys" etc. you risk taking away from that value. We are blessed to get input, for free, from guys like Larry Vickers, Dr. Roberts, C4IGrant, Rob Jensen, Gunz, Rob S. etc. whose experience using, training with, studying, building, designing, selling, modern weapons and techniques is vast. Instead of arguing with them sit back and listen to what they have to say.
Thanks for the kind words.
As M4C grows, we will see more and more people with less over all experience than the core members (which you listed and many others). We are of course thrilled to see the forum grow and to help new shooters get into training and grow their knowledge. There will always be some that believe (since birth) they know everything about firearms and how to use them.
C4
mkmckinley
07-30-11, 11:07
Thanks for the kind words.
As M4C grows, we will see more and more people with less over all experience than the core members (which you listed and many others). We are of course thrilled to see the forum grow and to help new shooters get into training and grow their knowledge. There will always be some that believe (since birth) they know everything about firearms and how to use them.
C4
I'm all for new members. In fact when I'm asked, online and in person, about good resources for running an AR I point people toward this site. Even fairly experienced shooters can come here and learn a lot. The main reason for my post was to point out why this site is worthwhile and what some of the newer members (hell I'm pretty new myself) seem to be missing.
I agree they just can bear the thought of something being better than a DI gun.
"Better" how?
This is the poster child, imo, of stupid ****ing posts with no purpose.
"Better" how?
This is the poster child, imo, of stupid ****ing posts with no purpose.
If the gun ran 100% before the piston and still runs 100% after but is easier to clean and runs cooler than I don't see a problem with installing the kit other than cost. The recoil increase is negligible. We aren't talking .308 here. There are plenty of people who have ran these kits hard with no problems. It's the op's money and ultimately his decision.
C'mon, guys! The so-called "piston" conversion cannot increase or decrease recoil. It doesn't make the rifle run cooler, hotter, cleaner or dirtier. The cartridge generates the same amount of work regardless of what rifle it's fired in. All the so-called AR "piston" conversion can do is change how the recoil feels and where the heat & fouling is dumped.
Judging from how the "piston" conversion is talked about, it seems the original DI system has no piston. It does. The bolt & carrier are the piston & cylinder. What the so-called "piston" system does is relocates the piston and cylinder from the BCG to the gas block. This places reciprocating mass further from the center of gravity where it's moment can have a greater effect on the rifle. The result is a larger displacement of the muzzle during recoil. The increased mass and it's placement pushes the polar axis of movement further from the center of gravity, making direction changes slower to start and stop.
All of this and the only practical change when converting to a "piston", is the gas block gets hotter and dirtier
C'mon, guys! The so-called "piston" conversion cannot increase or decrease recoil. It doesn't make the rifle run cooler, hotter, cleaner or dirtier. The cartridge generates the same amount of work regardless of what rifle it's fired in. All the so-called AR "piston" conversion can do is change how the recoil feels and where the heat & fouling is dumped.
Judging from how the "piston" conversion is talked about, it seems the original DI system has no piston. It does. The bolt & carrier are the piston & cylinder. What the so-called "piston" system does is relocates the piston and cylinder from the BCG to the gas block. This places reciprocating mass further from the center of gravity where it's moment can have a greater effect on the rifle. The result is a larger displacement of the muzzle during recoil. The increased mass and it's placement pushes the polar axis of movement further from the center of gravity, making direction changes slower to start and stop.
All of this and the only practical change when converting to a "piston", is the gas block gets hotter and dirtier
I see what you are saying but I think having all of the heat and carbon away from the chamber area where it is more critical can't be a bad thing. It's much easier to clean the piston than the bolt and barrel extension. If I go and dump 500 rounds through my AK it is no where near as dirty in the bolt and chamber area than my AR after doing the same with it. The piston kit essentially makes an AR operate like an AK.
This is pretty obvious.
The piston kit essentially makes an AR operate like an AK.
There are threads here about experiments where bolt temperatures of piston and DI systems are compared. DI bolts don't get that much hotter than piston driven ones.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57400
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=647961&postcount=123
Easier cleaning is a moot point. With proper lube, an AR bolt and barrel extension requires nothing more than a quick wipe down even well after 500 rounds.
I see what you are saying but I think having all of the heat and carbon away from the chamber area where it is more critical can't be a bad thing. It's much easier to clean the piston than the bolt and barrel extension. If I go and dump 500 rounds through my AK it is no where near as dirty in the bolt and chamber area than my AR after doing the same with it.
The piston & cylinder gets fouling regardless of where it's located. With the piston & cylinder being located at the gas block, the gas the piston & cylinder are exposed to is likely to be hotter.
How much cooler is the BCG of an AR with a gas block piston? I have been hit in the face with puffs of gas when shooting ARs. The puffs are annoying, but have never been hot.
Look at the overall length of the reciprocating mass. The length of gas block pistons run from gas block to the rear of the bolt/bolt carrier group. Springs are usually located between the gas block and the bolt/bcg* to keep everything short & compact.
The AR reciprocating mass is from the front of the bolt to the rear of the buffer. It's quite short, efficient and aft of the CG where it's easily controlled by the shoulder and the trigger hand. A gas block piston now extends that length from the rear of the buffer all the way to the gas block. Not only is the arm** of the system increased by moving it further from the CG and adding mass, it's also increased because the whole thing is longer. The arm is now fore and aft of the CG where it can rock the rifle like a teeter-totter.
The AR was designed to control recoil & muzzle rise. Relocating the piston & cylinder to the gas block above the bore reduces that capacity
*The exception is the FAL. It uses a rat tail at the back of the BCG that presses a spring in the stock. The rat tail & spring assembly is low mass and the action assisted by a piston spring. The Para version relocates the action spring to above the BCG within the upper receiver dust cover. The FAL design gives the rifle a lowered profile.
**Arm is a measurement of leverage. With increased arm (leverage) of the reciprocating mass, it has a larger effect on muzzle disturbance during it's operation
"Better" how?
This is the poster child, imo, of stupid ****ing posts with no purpose.
Reading comprehension anyone, I wrote "the thought" you and some of the others are offended that someone else thinks that piston systems are superior to DI. It's just funny to see a supposed 47 year old man getting so upset at someone posting their opinion on a message board.
I agree that I wouldn't touch the DD to put an Adams Piston kit on it. But I'm not going to tell him he is wrong for wanting to do it. It's obvious that he's made up his mind and it's going to do it no matter what internet guru 120mm has to say.
By the way don't pay more than 50 bucks and if you are a little mechanically inclined it's an easy do it yourself project.
GOOD LORD GUYS! I asked a simple question and out of 4 pages worth of posts only about 3 guys helped me out. I even had one gunsmith from another state offer to do the work for me FREE! He has the AA piston system with no complaints at all.
I know the DDM4 is a great setup, that's why I chose it. I also did my research on the AA system and, aside from here, have seen several positive articles on it and many great reviews. I don't buy crap when it comes to hunting stuff,investments, or vehicles.
All I needed to know was how much a gunsmith would charge me to install a kit I boughr because I hunt in a dry, sandy climate of South Texas and with 3 kids and a wife, don't have a lot of spare time to always break down and thoroughly clan my rig.
For those that helped thanks!
GeorgiaBoy
07-30-11, 16:36
We were just trying to help you. We were trying to keep you from wasting your money on something you don't need, trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
You have heard good reviews on the AA kit. I have heard hundreds of good reviews on Olympic, DPMS, and Del ton AR's as well, but that doesn't mean that they aren't junk.
Buying a well-made rifle like your DD to put a questionable quality piston kit on a gun DESIGNED for DI is just not a good move, IMO.
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