View Full Version : Ballistics for 410 pistol (Judge/Governor)?
There's an article in American Rifleman: Taurus Judge Ammunition (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/taurus-judge-ammunition/).
Anyone have FBI ballistic data on these rounds out of a pistol shotgun?
I know there's another 8 page thread that made fun of the Judge, but I didn't see ballistic data as any proof. Also read Box O' Truth #41, but it doesn't appear they used ammunition specifically designed for a pistol shotgun.
Thanks,
Jake
What's your angle? Are you looking for proof as to why the Judge should be discounted as a serious defense sidearm? Or are you simply trying to find an excuse for secretly liking it?
It's a turd. Trying to load it up with super duper defensive rounds is like trying to adapt the Tomahawk missile system for use on a sampan. Why do that when you have access to Aegis class cruisers? :(
What's your angle? Are you looking for proof as to why the Judge should be discounted as a serious defense sidearm? Or are you simply trying to find an excuse for secretly liking it?
It's a turd. Trying to load it up with super duper defensive rounds is like trying to adapt the Tomahawk missile system for use on a sampan. Why do that when you have access to Aegis class cruisers? :(
Best use I can think of for a judge is a snake gun on the river while fishing. .410 bird shot is murderous on snakes.
Glock17JHP
07-29-11, 13:27
Tried to reason with my brother-in-law about this subject after he bought one for SD in MO and was bragging about what he thought it could do...
The conversation turned sour real quick due to his ego, and he refused to talk further about firearms at all as a result!!!
Oh well...
We know that penetration is absolutely vital, projectiles must penetrate deep enough to not only reach the vital organs and the Central Nervous System, but also breach them. From all angles.
We know that projectiles traveling at pistol caliber velocities dont produce enough energy to make it a wounding factor. Try as they might, gun magazine writers and ammunition manufacturers still have not been able to defy physics.
We know that lightweight, high velocity projectiles(typical handgun velocities) dont have the mass, and subsequently the momentum to reach deep. You'll note in the Service Pistol Duty and Self Defense article that there are no truly lightweight and low mass projectiles recommended.
So, lets look at the loads from Federal Mr Clapp evaluated.
The first two from Federal offer either 4 000B or 4 00B pellets at 1,200fps. In 12 gauge, with double the pellets there are still cases where it doesnt meet the 12 inch standard for penetration. The next load is, according to Mr Clapp's wife, 63 plated 4-shot(Mr Clapp does note the difference of 4-shot and 4B). Again, that 63 tiny pellets, each with their own mass and momentum. Shotgunworld.com doesnt recommend 4-shot in 12 gauge, why would anyone recommend it in 12 gauge, why would anyone recommend it in 410?
Moving onto Remington's offering, well, they offer nothing really different than Federal's loads. Mr Clapp does note that they seemed like they are from a harder alloy. OK! How did he quantify that statement?
Then he speaks of Winchester's loads. "Defensive Discs". .40 cal projectiles that are less than a quarter inch thick. It might be one thing if these were true wadcutters, the penetration might be better. Lets not forget about those 12 or 16 BB-shot pellets. They dont defy physics either.
I love this line from Mr Clapp
There is also the over-penetration factor to be considered; it’s a problem with much of today’s defensive guns and loads.
[Mr Hand] REALLY?!?!? [/Mr Hand]
Yes, the defensive guns out there are the problem with over penetration. I blame Glock, SIG, Beretta, S&W, etc.
As for the loads, he offers absolutely no proof to back his claim. Last I checked, ammunition designers strive to create projectiles that have increased penetration and expansion, even after encountering objects that might degrade the performance.
From the same paragraph
[/quote]Since this new .410 ammunition is designed to work by means of cumulative effect, there are multiple projectiles, none of which are particularly heavy. Penetration would, therefore, be limited, but the wound would be quite wide. In urban situations, this factor alone supports the .410 handgun concept.[/quote]
He apparently has some grasp of physics. That said I remember an old saying, "every bullet has a lawyer attached to it". That would seem to be magnified. More so with some of these 15, 20, and 63 projectiles per trigger pull. Terminally speaking, one would have to fire several times in hopes that the quantity will substitute for quality
Just my thoughts.
Glock17JHP
07-30-11, 13:17
Fail-Safe,
You said:
"The first two from Federal offer either 4 000B or 4 00B pellets at 1,200fps. In 12 gauge, with double the pellets there are still cases where it doesnt meet the 12 inch standard for penetration."
00 Buck typically has no trouble meeting the 12 inch requirement even at 1,050 FPS, so I am not sure why you would make the above statement. 000 Buck will obviously penetrate even deeper at the same velocity, all else being equal.
If we are to correctly evaluate the loads that can be safely fired from 'The Judge', we need to use that specific revolver and shoot the loads designated for use in it... and shoot correctly calibrated gelatin, and then collect data. I would think that there will be other issues to consider separate from the ammunition itself, like the recoil the shooter has to deal with, and the pellet spread at different distances. Has anyone credible actually done any REAL testing like this?
In the long run, I think we will find that there are many, many BETTER choices for SD use that are already out there... in both weapon and ammunition choices. To me, this is a weapon system designed more on ego rather than intellect.
Alaskapopo
07-30-11, 15:37
I don't give much credit to Mr. Clapp or most of the gun rag writers.
Pat
Ever heard of anyone seriously suggesting a .410 shotgun for defense? All of a sudden put it in a revolver and you got yourself the hammer of Thor... :)
Fail-Safe,
You said:
"The first two from Federal offer either 4 000B or 4 00B pellets at 1,200fps. In 12 gauge, with double the pellets there are still cases where it doesnt meet the 12 inch standard for penetration."
00 Buck typically has no trouble meeting the 12 inch requirement even at 1,050 FPS, so I am not sure why you would make the above statement. 000 Buck will obviously penetrate even deeper at the same velocity, all else being equal.
Actually my info was gleaned from a discussion a while back on the old TF.com. In it it was discussed that one pellets began to seperate themselves from the pattern that penetration suffers. According to the article discussed, at 5 yards there is "good coverage", which in my mind means the pellets are spread.
Also, at higher speed there can be more deforming of the pellets which can effect the penetration as well. With the Judge/Governor, there is rifling in the barrel that could cause several othet problems with pellets.
Ever heard of anyone seriously suggesting a .410 shotgun for defense? All of a sudden put it in a revolver and you got yourself the hammer of Thor... :)
Pretty much...bubbas seem to love it though.
"Got me a shotgun pistol!"
Ever heard of anyone seriously suggesting a .410 shotgun for defense? All of a sudden put it in a revolver and you got yourself the hammer of Thor... :)
Amen.
Are you looking for proof as to why the Judge should be discounted as a serious defense sidearm? Or are you simply trying to find an excuse for secretly liking it?
Yeah, I need a 410 shotgun pistol demystified for me. The idea of a shotgun pistol sounds really good. From the reading on the forum, it sounds like it's not good for self defense. I'd like to understand why, and perhaps need some education on a 410.
Glock17JHP
07-31-11, 21:23
Alaskapopo,
Agree... I will admit though, I used to get my hands on as many 'gun rags' as possible every month when I was new to guns and trying to learn. I was young, it was the early 1980's... and I didn't know any better. I will credit the 'gun rags' for one thing, however... that was where I first heard the name 'Martin L. Fackler M.D.' I contacted him directly by phone whle he was still at the LAIR, and he kindly sent me a whole package of information to read. This set me on a course to the truth, and eventually led to the IWBA and others who were members and leaders there. I met folks as a result of all of this that are very knowledgeable in the field of weapons and wound ballistics, and they are valuable to me as friends, too.
Fail-Safe,
I understand about pellet deformation, but would assume these loads had shotcups that should minimize the rifling effect. However, even with fairly severe deformation, 00 Buck (and 000 Buck) seems to penetrate very well if the velocity is what you said it is.
sammage,
I have to agree... my brother-in-law who bought 'The Judge' is an Arkansas native, and an ex-Marine... he is a 'bubba' for sure...
Glock17JHP
07-31-11, 21:27
Yeah, I need a 410 shotgun pistol demystified for me. The idea of a shotgun pistol sounds really good. From the reading on the forum, it sounds like it's not good for self defense. I'd like to understand why, and perhaps need some education on a 410.
Testing would answer all of these questions...
Yeah, I need a 410 shotgun pistol demystified for me. The idea of a shotgun pistol sounds really good. From the reading on the forum, it sounds like it's not good for self defense. I'd like to understand why, and perhaps need some education on a 410.
For rats & snakes, it's great. For 200#+ violent humans, not so much. You never hear hunters extolling the virtues of a 410 for deer because it's inferior to a 20ga or better yet, a 12ga.
Putting a .410 shell in a handgun with a short barrel makes an already low powered round downright anemic. You'd be much better off with a 5 shot .45 Colt or .44 Special, and there are more easily carried platforms for those round. Once you examine the size of the Judge and compare it with more suitable defense handguns such as the Glock or S&W M&P, you will realize the shortcomings of the gun itself, not to mention the cartridge or shell.
In my mind, a 5 shot revolver is best suited for a pocket or ankle gun as backup. The Judge will not fill this role.
Alaskapopo,
sammage,
I have to agree... my brother-in-law who bought 'The Judge' is an Arkansas native, and an ex-Marine... he is a 'bubba' for sure...
I think I might live near this guy.. :help:
Seriously though, Judge fever is sweeping morons north and south of the Mason Dixon Line. Lots of good folks down here laugh at it for being more than a snake gun while out fishing as well.
Silly part is that you can get rat shot in the more popular pistol rounds...I spend lots of time out in the sticks and the ranch I hunt is very close to the rio grande river so our group is overly cautious & much more worried about the two legged vermin compared to the rattling / slithering kind. This alone keeps the judge from being considered.
45acp with rat shot is pretty devastating for rats and snakes. Heck, I've killed low flying grackles with it. I keep one round of the rat shot up the pipe and the mag filled with 230gr for the banditos.
The judge is simply a brilliant marketing ploy but a joke of a defensive round so not sure why there is even a need to find ballistic data unless you want to prove to others they should consider another purchase. It's heavey and that dumbass long cylinder is ugly to boot...A 44 mag w/ 44spl rat shot is a much more handsome river larger bore defensive gun.
QuietShootr
08-01-11, 08:53
The Judge is pure genius. It may be the best device for separating inbred retards from their money that has ever been invented.
Would a .458 Win Mag fit in that long cylinder? Would make it a good concealed carry elephant gun.
"Yeah, I need the feather pillow pistol demystified to me. The idea of a feather pillow pistol sounds really good. From reading on the forum, it sounds like it's not good for self defense. I'd like to understand why, and perhaps need some education on a feather pillow".
Seriously? You need "tests" and "data" as to why an anemic self defense round like the .410 is even more anemic when you put it in a pistol?
There is this thing. It's called the Law of Physics. I know the local legislature may not have passed it near where some of you live, but I'm pretty sure it's in effect.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
Was talking with a gun store guy when he brought up The Judge...
gun store guy: "It's a shotgun revolver. Anybody break into your house they better watch out, man!"
me: "If I absolutely HAD to use that thing, it'd be loaded with .45LC."
gun store guy: "Really? It takes .410 shotgun shells too, you know. That's going to put the hurt on em!"
me: "Are you saying a thimble-full of birdshot that patterns like a donut is somehow better than 230 grains of hardcast lead at 900 feet per second?"
gun store guy: "Huh?"
me: "Dude, my grandpa let me shoot his .410 when I was six years old. If you want an unconcealable 2 lb revolver, there are far better choices than that monstrosity."
gun store guy: "But..... shotgun!"
So we can summarize this and conclude .410 defensive (shot + discs) does pass FBI criteria even out of a shotgun barrel, and definitely not out of a pistol barrel? Or does the new 410 defensive loads just not pass pistol barrel ballistics?
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM4964-1.html
]
Here is a $13 Dollar hunk of shit for the judge.
I will just keep my G17 with SGD 124gr and be done with it. :angry:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM4964-1.html
]
Here is a $13 Dollar hunk of shit for the judge.
I will just keep my G17 with SGD 124gr and be done with it. :angry:
A hunk that is so popular they are on backorder... :bad:
A hunk that is so popular they are on backorder... :bad:
Just goes to prove what P.T. Barnum said.;)
Suwannee Tim
08-01-11, 16:06
If I was going to go back to carrying a big 'ole revolver it would be a Model 629 and I wouldn't be loading shotshells in it.
Glock17JHP
08-01-11, 19:51
Would a .458 Win Mag fit in that long cylinder? Would make it a good concealed carry elephant gun.
The only thing preventing the use of .458 Winchester Magnums in 'The Judge' is that it would need a longer and thicker-walled cylinder than it has now...
But it could work... y'all... (grins with stained, crooked and missing teeth)...
Glock17JHP
08-01-11, 19:55
If I was going to go back to carrying a big 'ole revolver it would be a Model 629 and I wouldn't be loading shotshells in it.
4 inch S&W Model 629 w/Hogue rubber combat grips...
If I was going to go back to carrying a big 'ole revolver it would be a Model 629 and I wouldn't be loading shotshells in it.
If you own a 44mag, you owe it to yourself to shoot the 44spl rat shot just for gins at snake distance as it is quite impresseive. (hell, I wish cci offered it 41mag for my Model 57). Anyway, 22 & 9 rat shot will kill the snake just as dead & it really takes the whole debate away for the judge to be around.
It is a pistol with no real world application...I really wish I had come up with the concept & capitlized on it. GREAT marketing, worthless hunk of iron considering the options.
Best answer given to me by a buddy who got one said something along the lines like: "Shut-up, I wanted it and enjoy messing around with it....why do you own over a dozen custom made hunting knives." That has been the only answer I could live with for defending the purchase.:)
So we can summarize this and conclude .410 defensive (shot + discs) does pass FBI criteria even out of a shotgun barrel, and definitely not out of a pistol barrel? Or does the new 410 defensive loads just not pass pistol barrel ballistics?
No. You are not getting it.
What we can summarize is that the two guns discussed are a shitty idea of self defense. .410 is a shitty round for self defense, even out of a full length shotgun, in comparison to just about anything else out there.
In order to make the "Judge" or "Governor" capable of chamberinng .410 rounds, they make them too large and awkward to be practical for carry, or manipulating for self defense.
Nearly every long gun or shotgun round is better than the .410. Nearly every handgun is better, ergonomically for self defense carry.
There is no justifiable reason, under Heaven, to even consider one of these abortions of a pistol for self defense. They are only attractive to the ignorant and the terminal douchebags.
Dig?
If you own a 44mag, you owe it to yourself to shoot the 44spl rat shot just for gins at snake distance as it is quite impressive.
+1
When I had 35 acres to keep up, I carried my 629 Mountain Gun while mowing, etc. Many a rat & a few poisonous snakes fell to CCI shotshells through it. I always carried two shotshells & four 200gr Gold Dots in it, with a couple of speedloaders loaded with more GD's. One time I saw a massive snapping turtle in one of my ponds. I figured out which way he was headed and I was waiting for him as he came up near shore. He took a 200gr GD in the throat and was DRT. I drug him out and he must've weighed 30 pounds! :D
Oh, and the Judge is just plain silly, especially compared to a more serious gun like the 629 MG.
+1
When I had 35 acres to keep up, I carried my 629 Mountain Gun while mowing, etc. Many a rat & a few poisonous snakes fell to CCI shotshells through it. I always carried two shotshells & four 200gr Gold Dots in it, with a couple of speedloaders loaded with more GD's. One time I saw a massive snapping turtle in one of my ponds. I figured out which way he was headed and I was waiting for him as he came up near shore. He took a 200gr GD in the throat and was DRT. I drug him out and he must've weighed 30 pounds! :D
Oh, and the Judge is just plain silly, especially compared to a more serious gun like the 629 MG.
"But..... shotgun!" :)
Suwannee Tim
08-02-11, 09:40
If you own a 44mag, you owe it to yourself to shoot the 44spl rat shot just for gins at snake distance as it is quite impresseive. (hell, I wish cci offered it 41mag for my Model 57). Anyway, 22 & 9 rat shot will kill the snake just as dead & it really takes the whole debate away for the judge to be around.....
I got my start with shot out of pistols with a Thompson Center Contender 44 magnum that had a screw on choke that stopped the rotation of the shot. It gave decent patterns with the choke but the patterns without it were predictably bad. Since the Taurus has no choke, all it's patterns will be predictably bad. Dittos on the effectiveness of the Speer shot caps on snakes. The 22 and 9 shotshells will kill snakes but you have to be a lot closer. With a 22 shotshell on a big snake, you need to be a couple or three feet from the snake, closer than many people, myself included are comfortable with. If you can smell the son of a reptile you are too close. The 44 increases this range to about 10 feet. Still not very far. I have never given a 410 revolver a moment's consideration and never will. I was killing time a couple weeks ago and handled one, I wasn't impressed. Next odd ball revolver I get will be a Chiappa Rhino (http://chiappafirearms.com/product/725).
One good thing to come out of these silly things is that the old .45 Colt is getting a lot of exposure.
Don't know if this exists but could they develop a .410 flare cartridge?
Then the Judge could find a legitimate place on boats. A flare pistol that can fire distress signals, fire shot rounds at seagulls when the food runs out and fire .45 Colt at the sharks when their food runs out.
Glock17JHP
08-02-11, 13:16
Don't know if this exists but could they develop a .410 flare cartridge?
Then the Judge could find a legitimate place on boats. A flare pistol that can fire distress signals, fire shot rounds at seagulls when the food runs out and fire .45 Colt at the sharks when their food runs out.
They could call the flare loads 'Pardons' or 'Vetos' and market them for use in 'The Governor'... :cool:
They could call the flare loads 'Pardons' or 'Vetos' and market them for use in 'The Governor'... :cool:
That's pretty funny.
I wonder how many people are loading up rock salt in their 410 shells for home defense. In Redneckville where I grew up there was always a fascination with rock salt and shotguns. :confused:
After the "shotgun" quote from store employee did he snap into a slim jim?
I got my start with shot out of pistols with a Thompson Center Contender 44 magnum that had a screw on choke that stopped the rotation of the shot. It gave decent patterns with the choke but the patterns without it were predictably bad. Since the Taurus has no choke, all it's patterns will be predictably bad. Dittos on the effectiveness of the Speer shot caps on snakes. The 22 and 9 shotshells will kill snakes but you have to be a lot closer. With a 22 shotshell on a big snake, you need to be a couple or three feet from the snake, closer than many people, myself included are comfortable with. If you can smell the son of a reptile you are too close. The 44 increases this range to about 10 feet. Still not very far. I have never given a 410 revolver a moment's consideration and never will. I was killing time a couple weeks ago and handled one, I wasn't impressed. Next odd ball revolver I get will be a Chiappa Rhino (http://chiappafirearms.com/product/725).
I have been catching and fondling snakes since I was a kiddo...Diamondbacks are all we have to worry about down here & they can strike 1/2 - 2/3 their OAL.
I have always wanted to shoot a large one & salvage the fangs but even 45acp shot tears them up if too close. Both opportunities on decent size ones resulted in mushed heads. Both times I had dogs with me & just went into heebie-jeepie mode & shot them too close.
Best one to date is 7ft stretched with no head...we are lucky and have lots of indigos and hogs & even on 7000 acres only kill 3-4 a year.
Man I hate rattlers...specially for the dogs. I can at least wear boots.
Tyrantresister
08-05-11, 11:23
Everyone loves to laugh at the Judge and the .410. I would trust my custom tri-ball loads loaded up with three .395 hard cast lead round balls (almost 100 grains each) over any other pistol round at self defense range. They group tight out to surprisingly long distances and penetrate DEEP!!
Everyone loves to laugh at the Judge and the .410.
And rightly so
I would trust my custom tri-ball loads loaded up with three .395 hard cast lead round balls (almost 100 grains each) over any other pistol round at self defense range. They group tight out to surprisingly long distances and penetrate DEEP!!
Deep into what? You have terminal ballistics data for that? It does not sound like fun to get shot with to be sure, but I question the confidence you show there. Just sayin' :cool:
Glock17JHP
08-05-11, 13:06
I am no longer enamored by 'The Judge'...
Why, you ask???
I just discovered they make a derringer that shoots the same ammo (.410/.45 LC)... and we all know that 'littler is better'... right??? :jester:
Old_Painless
08-05-11, 13:22
There's an article in American Rifleman: Taurus Judge Ammunition (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/taurus-judge-ammunition/).
Anyone have FBI ballistic data on these rounds out of a pistol shotgun?
I know there's another 8 page thread that made fun of the Judge, but I didn't see ballistic data as any proof. Also read Box O' Truth #41, but it doesn't appear they used ammunition specifically designed for a pistol shotgun.
Thanks,
Jake
Just FYI, I recently did an Update on the Judge where I used some ammunition designed for the pistol. See here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm
Bottom line: It's a very short-barreled gun, and that is its main limitation. A couple of rounds were able to make the 12 inch minimum penetration standard, but it is still a poor choice for personal defense.
Alaskapopo
08-05-11, 13:32
Everyone loves to laugh at the Judge and the .410. I would trust my custom tri-ball loads loaded up with three .395 hard cast lead round balls (almost 100 grains each) over any other pistol round at self defense range. They group tight out to surprisingly long distances and penetrate DEEP!!
100 grains wow at what 900 fps. Not that impressive.
Pat
Everyone loves to laugh at the Judge and the .410. I would trust my custom tri-ball loads loaded up with three .395 hard cast lead round balls (almost 100 grains each) over any other pistol round at self defense range. They group tight out to surprisingly long distances and penetrate DEEP!!
Good for you! Unfortunately, your post lacks any factual and verifiable data upon which to make an informed decision. Neither does it address the serious shortcomings of the Judge as a defensive sidearm, when compared to the available options. :rolleyes:
Heavy Metal
08-05-11, 13:52
100 grains wow at what 900 fps. Not that impressive.
Pat
That's 9mm Makarov territory there!
100 grains wow at what 900 fps. Not that impressive.
Pat
Not to jump to his defense, but please note that there are three/3 100gr pellets in his handload, total of 300grs of payload.
That would make a difference.
Although not the hammer of Thor, I would submit that three rounds of 9mm Mak FMJ hitting in a tight pattern isn't exactly what any of us would want to stand still for.
I have serious disdain for manufacturers of guns like these. They prey on the ignorance of the general public (which isn't hard when it comes to terminal ballistics) and saddle them with inferior and - in some cases - dangerous combinations of guns and ammo that won't perform as expected.
The Judge is pure genius. It may be the best device for separating inbred retards from their money that has ever been invented.
You hit the nail in the head.
I concur.
That's why I carry a Glock 19 off duty instead of a Judge
ETA; I have no idea how my reply post ended up ahead in the stack to the post I was relying to.
Not to jump to his defense, but please note that there are three/3 100gr pellets in his handload, total of 300grs of payload.
That would make a difference.
Although not the hammer of Thor, I would submit that three rounds of 9mm Mak FMJ hitting in a tight pattern isn't exactly what any of us would want to stand still for.
It's still fired out of a boat anchor of a shooting iron with the ergos of an anvil.
I'd still prefer to shoot a bad guy with a 9mm Makarov from a well-built semi-auto. Or even better, 124 gr. hp or better from a 9mm semi-auto or 230 gr. from a .45 acp semi-auto.
Alaskapopo
08-05-11, 22:09
Not to jump to his defense, but please note that there are three/3 100gr pellets in his handload, total of 300grs of payload.
That would make a difference.
Although not the hammer of Thor, I would submit that three rounds of 9mm Mak FMJ hitting in a tight pattern isn't exactly what any of us would want to stand still for.
Frankly the 9mm Mak is not that impressive to me especially with FMJ bullets. Could it kill someone sure. Would I trust it to stop a determined threat no.
Pat
Tyrantresister
08-05-11, 23:13
The 9mm mak has a superb record where it is used by police and military overseas, and has been killing people effectively for decades.
You can believe what you will about the judge and the .410 shotgun, I have my own real world experience that I will stand behind. Experience that goes beyond shooting paper, and inanimate obstacles. You can do what you wish.
On a side note, here is what Steve from Stevespages.com has to say about penetration
> Hi Steve!
>
> Wow, that is very interesting information about how real penetration in flesh is only 67% of ballistic gel. That really drives home how important penetration is as the FBI's protocol of 12" penetration only equates to 8" in actual flesh! So if you had to shoot someone through an arm, or had to shoot a rather large individual, 8" might not be enough!
>
> That's interesting about the 200 gr .45 ACP. It seems to perform well in your tests, though the gold dot "only" penetrates around 18" of water in that load, which would be around 8" in flesh...."
Place a ruler along side of your head...measure from your forehead to the back of your scalp...what is that distance?
Now place the same ruler along your left side under your armpit, front to back. Measure that distance.
Now, tell me if 8 inches of penetration isn't enough...
Another train of thought I firmly believe in is that a bullet can have 3-gazillion tons of energy, but if it is all dissipated in the ground or a concrete wall on the opposite side of the target, what good is it? If the bullet "has only" 600 pounds of energy, but all that energy is expended inside a 200 pound man ... you are a lot better off!
This whole idea of penetration is important if you are shooting through steel or concrete barriers (which I will leave to air-support any day). The object of any rifle or handgun is to fire one bullet, hit one target in a vital (or preferred area) and totally incapacitate the target.
I don't want the bullet to exit my target, be it hunting or defensive, at any time. I can live very well knowing that I took out a "bad guy", but I couldn't live very well knowing that the bullet that took out the "bad guy" also took out a young mother with twin babies, or the pilot of the 737 on which I happened to be a passenger!
As for the FBI? Well, maybe they would be a lot better off if they were not armed and stuck to things they know about, like "white collar crime". Like the name says, "Federal Bureau of Investigation" ... not "Federal Law Enforcement" ... I believe the United States is forbidden from having a "Federal Police Force". Police action should be maintained by individual states and local governments...and most importantly, the private citizen.
Alaskapopo
08-06-11, 00:07
The 9mm mak has a superb record where it is used by police and military overseas, and has been killing people effectively for decades.
You can believe what you will about the judge and the .410 shotgun, I have my own real world experience that I will stand behind. Experience that goes beyond shooting paper, and inanimate obstacles. You can do what you wish.
On a side note, here is what Steve from Stevespages.com has to say about penetration
Killing and stopping is very different. The .22 LR cartridge has killed more people than any other round but it sucks at stopping determined attackers. Using a 9mm mak to excute political prisoners is different from stopping an attacking foe. What real world experience are you a Navy SEAL like every other guy on the internet claims to be.
Pat
Its well proven that penetration in properly made gelatin is at or very near a 1 to 1 ratio with penetration in real life shootings.
Most of what you just posted is a complete load of bullshit. I have no idea who "Steve" is, but he has no idea what he's talking about.
Heavy Metal
08-06-11, 00:29
The 9mm mak has a superb record where it is used by police and military overseas, and has been killing people effectively for decades.
Yep, a superb record for killing unarmed, restrained prisoners at point-blank range to the head effectively.
I have three Maks as collectors items but as serious fighting weapons, they are dogs.
Heavy Metal
08-06-11, 00:33
The 9mm mak has a superb record where it is used by police and military overseas, and has been killing people effectively for decades.
You can believe what you will about the judge and the .410 shotgun, I have my own real world experience that I will stand behind. Experience that goes beyond shooting paper, and inanimate obstacles. You can do what you wish.
On a side note, here is what Steve from Stevespages.com has to say about penetration
Dude, that is ****ing sad. The 12 inch minimum is to account for things like arms in front (like holding a weapon) and quartering shots. Short-bus Stevie seems to think people are going to face you square with their arms to the sides. Seriously, why are you linking this Derp as some kind of authority to be respected? Cue the "You are gonna get Raped.jpeg"
To quote Old Painless:
People often ask, “Why is the penetration standard 12 inches? Most people are not 12 inches “thick”.”
The answer is that the FBI did a study of what was needed for ammunition to be effective, based upon the ammunition failure in the famous Miami Shootout, to reach the vital organs of the bad guy and Stop him from doing what he was doing. They determined that to be sure to reach the vital organs or central nervous system, a round should penetrate from 12 to 15 inches into ballistics gelatin. This included penetration through 4 layers of denim material to account for thick clothing, and also to account for the possibility of the round needing to penetrate through arms or limbs before hitting the torso.
If you think about it, if a bad guy is pointing a gun at you, your round might need to fully penetrate his hands or arms before even starting to penetrate his torso. The 12 inch minimum standard allows for effectiveness from any angle and through any extremities. Therefore, we require any self-defense round to meet or exceed the FBI 12 inch minimum penetration standard. And since water works at a 2 to 1 ratio to ballistic gelatin, a round must penetrate 24 inches of water (4 jugs) to meet the standard of 12 inches of BG.
Yep, a superb record for killing unarmed, restrained prisoners at point-blank range to the head effectively.
I have three Maks as collectors items but as serious fighting weapons, they are dogs.
But I would still have 1 Makarov before I'd have 10 Judges or Governors...
You can believe what you will about the judge and the .410 shotgun,
That's really what you wanna say here on your third post? Really? Good luck with that. :rolleyes:
Old_Painless
08-06-11, 08:34
On a side note, here is what Steve from Stevespages.com has to say about penetration
Sorry Tyrantresister, but whomever Steve is, he doesn't understand terminal ballistics or wounding to Stop a threat.
See Heavy Metal's quote above, which explains the 12 inch penetration requirement.
The 9mm mak has a superb record where it is used by police and military overseas, and has been killing people effectively for decades.
You can believe what you will about the judge and the .410 shotgun, I have my own real world experience that I will stand behind. Experience that goes beyond shooting paper, and inanimate obstacles. You can do what you wish.
On a side note, here is what Steve from Stevespages.com has to say about penetration
Read more, talk less. Your "real world" experience has lead you to some incorrect assumptions. There's plenty of us here with real world experience who aren't making asinine statements about subjects we're not qualified to make statements about.
Read these:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?
t=19887)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64658
Heavy Metal
08-06-11, 09:32
But I would still have 1 Makarov before I'd have 10 Judges or Governors...
I completely agree!
askani79705
08-06-11, 12:25
The 9mm mak has a superb record where it is used by police and military overseas, and has been killing people effectively for decades.
And most of those police officers were driving around in a Lada.Not because they wanted to,But because that was what was available. I've got choices.
Everyone loves to laugh at the Judge and the .410. I would trust my custom tri-ball loads loaded up with three .395 hard cast lead round balls (almost 100 grains each) over any other pistol round at self defense range. They group tight out to surprisingly long distances and penetrate DEEP!!
100 grains wow at what 900 fps. Not that impressive.
Pat
I agree.
Even if those 0.395 round balls could be loaded to make 900 fps (the most they can weigh is 92.5 grains given the density of pure lead), according to MacPherson's penetration equations, they should penetrate to a depth of ~22.66 inches and produce 0.38 ounce of permanently crushed tissue per pellet in the first 12 inches of travel through soft tissue for a total of 1.14 ounce of permanently crushed tissue over that (12 inch) distance.
It hardly seems worth it for all the bulk associated with the Judge's design given that current "service calibers" exceed that performance by a considerable margin and with more readily available sources of SD-appropriate ammunition.
ETA: The only data that I have been able to locate regarding the Judge's performance using buckshot was in an article written by Patrick Sweeney on pages 18-21 of the January 2010 issue of HANDGUNS magazine in which he tested the Federal Premium .410 Handgun load (four plated OOO buckshot- 0.36" dia. @ 832 fps over his chronograph) against gelatin and claims to have gotten 10-12 inches of penetration in (calibrated?) gelatin with some flattening of the pellets (deformation suffered during acceleration of the shot load) which seems to agree with the predicted penetration using MacPherson's equations if you treat them (with the proper CD) as "shortened cylinders" (due to their flattened surfaces).
The combined permanent wound cavity mass of all four OOO buckshot is a more respectable 2.55 ounces, but that assumes that all four OOO buckshot hit and penetrate to their fullest without being deflected by bone.
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