a new possible M&P9 or 3rd Gen G19

[Long Tom Coffin]

Okay, so as everyone might remember, I asked about using a Colt 1911 as a ccw piece. The Janitor promptly piped up that I should take my springer GI and have Berry hill do a custom job on it. I have elected to take that advice, and since I was able get alot more money than I have originally planned, I have also decided to get another 9 mike mike. I currently have a Gen 4 G19 that I like, but I was planning on getting another 9 as well. My current choices are an M&P and a Gen 3 G19. Now, I originally got the Gen 4 G19 because I was not a big fan of the ergos of the Gen 3's. That is the only strike in the Gen 3's corner.

I was looking at the M&P9 because of increased capacity and better ergonomics. I have handled but not shot one yet. This weekend I plan on renting both, putting a few hundred rounds through them, and make my decision then.

However, before I possibly pick up an M&P9, I wanted to get some advice on it. I have read the M&P problem thread as well as the M&P fleas thread several times over, and it is my understanding that the primary issues of the M&P9's, like mag drops, weak strikers, and poor accuracy at distances greater than 20 yards have all been corrected with the most recent crops of the pistol, correct? If do get the M&P, my primary plan is to get some Triji HD night sights as well as an Apex Duty kit and a Cane & Derby gator skinned back strap. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Kevin P]

I will mention that doing a search on the forums and elsewere will yeild a wealth of information for you to make a informed decision. But instead of just the classic " do a search response" (which annoys me as well as other people) and provides no value to you and the forums, I will try to give you something that might help. My look on it is if you got time to post a response you can at least help or point someone in the right direction.



I have a question to ask that may be able to help you out. Why do you want to go 3rd gen if you don't like the grip? I would side on the advice that many experienced individuals give and that is to go with two identical pistols. There are many good benefits for having two identical pistols if you plan on using them for defensive purposes. Two gen 3 19( my current situation) or two m&p's or two gen 4 g19 would be ideal. Either will serve you well. I will say that although there may be a few issues that people are having with the newer Gocks and M&p's, don't let yourself get caught into the sky is falling mentality. The vast majority of pistols by both manufactures are running great. Just something to think about.

[Long Tom Coffin]

I will mention that doing a search on the forums and elsewere will yeild a wealth of information for you to make a informed decision. But instead of just the classic " do a search response" (which annoys me as well as other people) and provides no value to you and the forums, I will try to give you something that might help. My look on it is if you got time to post a response you can at least help or point someone in the right direction.



I have a question to ask that may be able to help you out. Why do you want to go 3rd gen if you don't like the grip? I would side on the advice that many experienced individuals give and that is to go with two identical pistols. There are many good benefits for having two identical pistols if you plan on using them for defensive purposes. Two gen 3 19( my current situation) or two m&p's or two gen 4 g19 would be ideal. Either will serve you well. I will say that although there may be a few issues that people are having with the newer Gocks and M&p's, don't let yourself get caught into the sky is falling mentality. The vast majority of pistols by both manufactures are running great. Just something to think about.


Whether or not I like the grip hasn't always been a complete deal breaker. As a matter of fact, there were other pistols with grips that I liked better when I got my Gen 4, but I didn't purchase those because of other issues (such as the XD. I wouldn't touch one of those with ten foot sharpened stick). I feel the Gen 3 grip is inferior to the M&P/Gen 4, but that can always be corrected later (reduction/stippling, etc). The Gen 4 has served well, barring the occasional erratic ejection/brass to the face.


But the real situation I am facing is that I am experimenting right now. I only recently got into guns/2A/CCW, so I am still looking for the right platform for myself. When I have found that platform, I will stick with it and I will more likely that not have more than one pistol in that platform. Whether that will be glock, or S&W, or something else, I don't know yet. The Gen 4 works pretty good, but does it work good enough in comparison to others? Is there something else out there that would provide a significant benefit to myself? I'm looking at getting quality training in the near future, and I want to have the platform I will be using decided on definitively by that point. Right now, I have the time, money, and inclination to experiment, so that's what I will be doing.

[C4IGrant]

I think an older GEN 3 G19 is a great idea and so is a new M&P.



C4

[mlk18]

I have 3 M&P's all made in 2010, all 3 have been 100%. I highly recommend them.

[Alpha Sierra]

Do not let the Glock Gen 4 hysteria dissuade you. There's too many of us with excellent Gen 4s. The thing is, most who get stellar reliability from them aren't as vocal as the minority that doesn't.

Look at how long the M&P problem thread is and ask yourself if they are any better than a Gen 4 Glock.

Come to think of it, hasn't Glock had problems with each generation at one point or another and overcame them each and every time?

[Alpha Sierra]

You know, this can be over-analyzed to death.

I bought an M&P, never could get quite comfortable with its ergos, sold them both, and got a Glock.

Problem solved w/o too much effort.

Point is, make you your mind and go. If you later need to change, sell off and move on.

[C4IGrant]

Do not let the Glock Gen 4 hysteria dissuade you. There's too many of us with excellent Gen 4s. The thing is, most who get stellar reliability from them aren't as vocal as the minority that doesn't.

LOL, there are WAY to many DOCUMENTED LE Agencies and PROFESSIONAL instructors saying the exact opposite (on top of Glock threatening to sue everybody and their brother over them telling the truth) to ignore the GEN 4 problems (and now GEN 3 problems).


Look at how long the M&P problem thread is and ask yourself if they are any better than a Gen 4 Glock.

Yes, way better. For many reasons (can list them if you really want to know). For no other reason though, S&W won't attempt to sue you by telling the truth. ;)


Come to think of it, hasn't Glock had problems with each generation at one point or another and overcame them each and every time?

Yes they have. At this point though, they are in FULL denial mode so I would wait awhile why they pull their head out of the ass.


C4

[Long Tom Coffin]

Yes, way better. For many reasons (can list them if you really want to know).


Actually in part desire to fuel the fire, and part desire to get your opinion, yes please, do tell :D


I'm no stranger to the Gen 4 problems. My g19 Gen 4 has been a 100% through 4500 rounds minus the aforementioned problems above. There was a 300 round range session I had in which I deliberately tried to induce a stoppage using el cheapo 115 gr rounds. I tried every limp wrist and hold combination I could think of to get a jam, but nothing worked. I even tried a two finger hold while firing with my pinky. That actually hurt like hell but didn't jam the gun.

On the other hand, there are several other people on the range that get a jam at least every 2 or 3 boxes, which I think is thoroughly unacceptable. I guess I just escaped the Gen4 hex and got a decent one.

[Alpha Sierra]

LOL, there are WAY to many DOCUMENTED LE Agencies and PROFESSIONAL instructors saying the exact opposite (on top of Glock threatening to sue everybody and their brother over them telling the truth) to ignore the GEN 4 problems (and now GEN 3 problems).
So you are saying that the people that have working Gen 4s are the minority?

I know this is going to ruffle feathers, but I'm in such a mood today....Whatever LE agencies and professionals say doesn't mean a hill of beans when your gun runs and runs and runs.




Yes, way better. For many reasons (can list them if you really want to know). For no other reason though, S&W won't attempt to sue you by telling the truth. ;)
No need. I've had both. The M&P is a nice pistol, no better, no worse. Just didn't fit my hand no matter what I tried. So down the road they went.

[stitchclimber]

I think an older GEN 3 G19 is a great idea and so is a new M&P.



C4


This man speaks wisdom.

[sandsunsurf]

Gen 3 Glock 19. Or another Gen 4 Glock 19.

The M&P design is flawed and can fire when dropped. The striker is completely cocked, it's for all practical purposes a single action pistol without a manual safety.

[C4IGrant]

So you are saying that the people that have working Gen 4s are the minority?

Could be. Or it could be a 50/50 split. Don't know. When I look at malfunctions/problems, I talk to instructors that see a lot of students and LE Firearms instructors that do testing for their PD's and SO's. Based off of this, there is a pretty big problem. Big enough that some well known Glock users confronted Glock at Shot.


I know this is going to ruffle feathers, but I'm in such a mood today....Whatever LE agencies and professionals say doesn't mean a hill of beans when your gun runs and runs and runs.

I have a BM AR that runs. I also had a hi-point 9mm rifle run for me.

To put it in context, when bunches of people were having dead triggers, I didn't have a single one (in any of my M&P's). Did I recognize there was a problem? Yep. Did I stick my head in the sand and tell everyone that this is the minority? No.





No need. I've had both. The M&P is a nice pistol, no better, no worse. Just didn't fit my hand no matter what I tried. So down the road they went.

I have both as well. ;) The Glock doesn't fit my hand well, but I keep the ones I have because I recognize that they are a great gun.


C4

[wahoo95]

No need. I've had both. The M&P is a nice pistol, no better, no worse. Just didn't fit my hand no matter what I tried. So down the road they went.

You must have LEGO hands...LOL.

I suggest the OP take both guns and get some serious range time in with them to see which "he" shoots beat with.....that really all the matters. Both are great guns so choose and settle on the one that works best for you. Also, pick up the pace with getting that professional training before you start buying too much stuff. You'd be amazed just how many people end up making some major gear changes after taking a few classes. That training helps you better understand what you need and what works for you instead of eveyone else.

Me....I love my M&P9!

[dookie1481]

Gen 3 Glock 19. Or another Gen 4 Glock 19.

The M&P design is flawed and can fire when dropped. The striker is completely cocked, it's for all practical purposes a single action pistol without a manual safety.


Can you point to an incident where the pistol fired when dropped? Preferably one with witnesses, as many people who have NDs won't admit that their finger may have been on the trigger.

[jmreagan]

OP, my experiences with M&P's and Glocks have been in .40 caliber so take that into consideration.

I have a M&P full size and a compact mode in .40 caliber. FS was bought in early 2010 and the C in 2011. Both have thousands of rounds between them without one single failure. Both have the silver striker, (updated one), and have been dry fired hundreds of times if not a thousand. The magazines have never dropped out of the gun without me pressing the mag release. Both group very nicely at 25 yards with Blazer, brass and aluminum cased ammo. With Federal HST's, Gold Dots, and XTP's their accuracy amazes me. The C model is one of my two, ccw guns. I fully trust them both and they now are the only polymer pistols I own.

The Gen 3, G27 I had, bought in 2005, had problems with stove piping and the slide locking back with rounds in the chamber. I'm an experienced shooter with a firm grip. I let plenty of others shoot it too. It was extremely accurate though. Took it to Smyrna, ran like a top after that. Sold it because I like the M&P's much better and I just couldn't get past the problems it had before going back to Glock. It was a mental thing on my part. The guy I sold it to has had zero problems with it.

I would rent both a Glock, and a M&P, put 100 rounds through each and make your decision from there.

[chuckman]

The M&P design is flawed and can fire when dropped. The striker is completely cocked, it's for all practical purposes a single action pistol without a manual safety.

Or you can get a M&P with the thumb safety. I have both (Glock 19 and M&P), and I like them each for different reasons. I shoot SIG better than both, so I am debating getting rid of the M&P and getting another SIG. But to me it is a coin toss between the two...both have been 100% reliable.

[jmreagan]

Can you point to an incident where the pistol fired when dropped? Preferably one with witnesses, as many people who have NDs won't admit that their finger may have been on the trigger.

I'm interested in this as well because frankly, I've never heard of M&P's firing when dropped. I'm not calling BS at all, but I've never heard of an instance. You would think that with all the LE agencies adopting the M&P that if there was an issue with drop firing it would be more published. This concerns me because M&P's are the only polymer pistols I own. I regularly EDC a M&P .40c without a safetly or magazine disconnect.

[TXBob]

Either is a good choice.

Take both for a test drive if possible and pick the one you like better. Its a matter of personal preference--both are outstanding.

I prefer the M&P myself, It fits my hand better and shoots better for me. Your results may vary

[Alpha Sierra]

You must have LEGO hands...LOL.

It's weird, I know.

But the squarish contour, weird grip angle, and surface texture of a Glock make it stay in my hands under recoil with much less effort than the M&P regardless of the backstrap I tried with the S&W.

The other weird thing is while I don't have large hands, I find the large Gen 4 backstrap to give noticeably superior results in terms of consistent handgun positioning in my hand during the draw, in terms of easier control of the pistol during recoil, and in terms of consistent POA vs POI.

Just goes to show that what feels right in the store is not always what will work right under live fire.

[Alpha Sierra]

The Gen 3, G27 I had, bought in 2005, had problems with stove piping and the slide locking back with rounds in the chamber. .

:eek: But I thought early gen 3s were.......

[jmreagan]

:eek: But I thought early gen 3s were.......

Yeah I know right? Mine was not of the infallible and famed Gen 3's. At least not until it came back from Smyrna. Then it was solid. They replaced the extractor, ejector, trigger bar, striker, magazines, even the sights for me. Glock was a class act about it. I sat out in the waiting area where everyone was pleasant to me, giving me Glock magazines, pens, key chains, and other swag. They did make the pistol right though, and I have to give them their fair credit.

[sandsunsurf]

Can you point to an incident where the pistol fired when dropped? Preferably one with witnesses, as many people who have NDs won't admit that their finger may have been on the trigger.

I know of an incident, and it is on video, and it's definitely a failure on the part of the gun. It's not my agency, so I'm limited on what I can share at this time, but I'm working on it.

[C4IGrant]

Yeah I know right? Mine was not of the infallible and famed Gen 3's. At least not until it came back from Smyrna. Then it was solid. They replaced the extractor, ejector, trigger bar, striker, magazines, even the sights for me. Glock was a class act about it. I sat out in the waiting area where everyone was pleasant to me, giving me Glock magazines, pens, key chains, and other swag. They did make the pistol right though, and I have to give them their fair credit.

Gen 3 Glocks in 40 were and still are the LEAST reliable Glock's made (especially if you mount a weapon light to them).

So your gun not being overly reliable doesn't surprise me in the least.



C4

[Long Tom Coffin]

Gen 3 Glocks in 40 were and still are the LEAST reliable Glock's made (especially if you mount a weapon light to them).

So your gun not being overly reliable doesn't surprise me in the least.



C4

I'd heard that. I was under the impression that the .40 gen 3's had issues especially with light mounts because the design was based off the 9mm Gen 3's. The polymer frame flexes with each shot, and I was told that the light mount on the .40 cals prevent the frame from flexing appropriately.


At least, that's what I was told. I'm no chemist or physicist, and I'm about as technically inclined as a bowling ball, so that information could easily be incorrect. If it is, I'm always game for the correct take on the matter.

[Long Tom Coffin]

I know of an incident, and it is on video, and it's definitely a failure on the part of the gun. It's not my agency, so I'm limited on what I can share at this time, but I'm working on it.


To be frank, non drop safe doesn't concern me much, as I don't drop my guns, ever. If, through some happenstance of fate it manages to drop while in the midst of a confrontation, I'll be sure that it drops with the barrel pointed towards the bad guy. Like Indiana Jones. :p


I'm also aware of at least 5 incidents where there has been an accidental discharge while in the process of taking down a glock. 2 of those ND's involved injury. A third was fatal. Bear in mind, these aren't "Internet" reports that I've read somewhere, these were people I know/knew personally. In the fatal case, it was the father of one of my daughter's classmates and a fellow Knight in the K of C. There is no perfectly safe pistol, and that has to be taken into consideration at all times when handling them.

As for this video, I'd truly like to see it. Well, I wouldn't like per se, but I think it would be highly educational. I have taken apart and looked at a M&P, and from my understanding that while the pistol is in a partially cocked position while in battery, the trigger bar has to connect and raise the firing pin safety plunger and releasing the firing pin safety before the trigger bar engages the sear at the bar's rearmost position, i.e. the trigger has to be pulled all the way. If this is not the case and you have video proof of it, I'd very much like to see it.

[variablebinary]

I regard myself as a Glock person, but after spending time with M&P I have a hard time gripping Glocks

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm also aware of at least 5 incidents where there has been an accidental discharge while in the process of taking down a glock. 2 of those ND's involved injury. A third was fatal.

If one knows, or should know, that the manual of arms to field strip a pistol includes pulling the trigger to release the striker prior to removing the slide, how can failing to ensure the chamber is clear before doing so be anything BUT negligence.

Sorry to be harsh, but unless those Glocks were truly mechanically defective, there is nothing accidental about what you describe.

[C4IGrant]

I'd heard that. I was under the impression that the .40 gen 3's had issues especially with light mounts because the design was based off the 9mm Gen 3's. The polymer frame flexes with each shot, and I was told that the light mount on the .40 cals prevent the frame from flexing appropriately.


At least, that's what I was told. I'm no chemist or physicist, and I'm about as technically inclined as a bowling ball, so that information could easily be incorrect. If it is, I'm always game for the correct take on the matter.

It happens more on the G22's with the light attached. The G27 is more likely to suffer malfunction's just because of its length.


C4

[Long Tom Coffin]

If one knows, or should know, that the manual of arms to field strip a pistol includes pulling the trigger to release the striker prior to removing the slide, how can failing to ensure the chamber is clear before doing so be anything BUT negligence.

Sorry to be harsh, but unless those Glocks were truly mechanically defective, there is nothing accidental about what you describe.



Apologies are unnecessary. Negligence, then. In any case, it's an argument over semantics. One should never attempt to take down a loaded glock just like one should never either accidentally or negligently drop a loaded pistol, regardless of make, model or caliber.
The point I was alluding to (perhaps I should just have come out and said it) was the fact that the trigger mechanism on the M&P is not conducive to firing when dropped. Ergo, if what the previous poster said was true, it must be either negligence on the part of the operator or mechanical defect.

[C4IGrant]

I know of an incident, and it is on video, and it's definitely a failure on the part of the gun. It's not my agency, so I'm limited on what I can share at this time, but I'm working on it.

I spoke to an LE rep at S&W and asked if they had EVER heard to a M&P going off when dropped. He said never.

He then advised me that S&W does drop testing at the factory as part of NIJ. I also know that certain LE agencies have drop tested the M&P with no issues.

This leads me to believe that the gun was modiefied in some way or a part(s) broke.


C4

[l8apex]

The MP isn't a bad choice, I ran one for a bit but ended up back with my G19 and bought another one as backup instead. APEX kit wasn't available at the time and vague trigger kept me from liking it more than the G19. The ergos are about as equal, but when I factored in the amount needed to get a MP to run like my G19 Gen3 and the ease of acquiring parts & maintenance, I sold it.

I personally would buy another G19 as reserve. I have 2 G19s Gen3/4 and couldn't be happier. YMMV.

[Kristofer_G]

Gen 3 Glock 19. Or another Gen 4 Glock 19.

The M&P design is flawed and can fire when dropped. The striker is completely cocked, it's for all practical purposes a single action pistol without a manual safety.

It maybe possible to to shock the striker off of the sear by dropping an M&P hard enough. However, this is the reason every modern pistol design, including Glock, incorporate passive firing pin blocks. Without the trigger being depressed the striker is blocked from contacting the primer of a chambered cartridge.

[C4IGrant]

It maybe possible to to shock the striker off of the sear by dropping an M&P hard enough. However, this is the reason every modern pistol design, including Glock, incorporate passive firing pin blocks. Without the trigger being depressed the striker is blocked from contacting the primer of a chambered cartridge.

Correct. You can round a factory SB though to the extent that it would allow the gun to go off if fired.

This makes me wonder if something wasn't done to the gun (trigger job).

C4

[Alex F]

So, you already have a working 9mm (glock gen 4), and you're getting a 1911 customized.

Have you considered not getting another handgun at all, but rather getting more magazines/ammunition or training for the weapons you do have?

Just a thought :)

[Long Tom Coffin]

So, you already have a working 9mm (glock gen 4), and you're getting a 1911 customized.

Have you considered not getting another handgun at all, but rather getting more magazines/ammunition or training for the weapons you do have?

Just a thought :)


I already have about 700 rounds of 124 Gr +P GD and about a 1000 rounds of various range ammos, and about half those numbers in .45 acp. I'm also registered for three training classes over the next three months (an an intermediate pistol class, a FOF/CQB pistol class, and a carbine/ar training course).

So, thanks for the advice, but I think I'm good to go on that score.

[romanowe]

I am moving in the same direction as you. I currently use a 1911 as my CCW. To maintain my preferred level of proficiency I shoot at least 200-300 rounds per week. While that is feasible now, it won't be when my wife and I begin to have kids. I don't reload and the cost of ammunition is pushing me to 9mm.

[Beat Trash]

I spoke to an LE rep at S&W and asked if they had EVER heard to a M&P going off when dropped. He said never.

He then advised me that S&W does drop testing at the factory as part of NIJ. I also know that certain LE agencies have drop tested the M&P with no issues.

This leads me to believe that the gun was modiefied in some way or a part(s) broke.


C4

I personally know of one agency in SW Ohio that drop tested the shit out of the T&E guns, as well as the magazines. Called it the Frisbee test.

[Long Tom Coffin]

I am moving in the same direction as you. I currently use a 1911 as my CCW. To maintain my preferred level of proficiency I shoot at least 200-300 rounds per week. While that is feasible now, it won't be when my wife and I begin to have kids. I don't reload and the cost of ammunition is pushing me to 9mm.

I'm right there with you. I've decided that my customized 1911 is going to be my fun gun, and not for CCW, based off of what I've been learning from the great folks here. DocGKR has been tremendously helpful and informative in this regard. It's not that I'm doubting the efficacy of the .45 round at all, it's that I'm doubting my ability to purchase .45 ammunition in sufficient quantities to practice with. As I mentioned previously, I have several hundred rounds of .45 acp ammo of both the range and SD varieties, but that's only because I got really lucky because a relative sold them to me on the cheap. Without the family discount I won't be able to afford enough .45 ammo to become skilled with it. I'm a grad student with a 4 person family.

I've got some cash I've been saving up to splurge on some new stuff, but I'm going to be sticking with 9mm as my primary carry at this particular point.

I've also compiled my list of what I'm buying. I shot the g19 Gen 3 and the M&P9, and after about 300 hundred rounds of ammo apiece I've decided I'm moving to the M&P platform. It was just too good. So, the list goes as follows:

M&P9
M&P9c (ankle carry)
Trijicon HD night sights
Apex trigger kit
Cane & Derby Gator skinned backstrap
a spare M&P body for my MTAC
X-Concealment "C" Holster
X-Concealment double mag carrier
picking up another 6 or 7 M&P mags to start

Won't need any ammo as I have plenty of range and self defense ammo sitting around at home.

[tradja]

I'm also registered for three training classes over the next three months (an an intermediate pistol class, a FOF/CQB pistol class, and a carbine/ar training course).

In my experience, after you take these three classes you will probably have a much better idea of what additional hardware you really need. I'd suggest that you hold off overthinking your next handgun purchase until you complete and digest all three classes.

ETA: Sounds uncool, but seriously consider bringing a notepad to class. In addition to the details of lectures and drills, write down those gear-related epiphanies when they occur, major or minor.

[d90king]

I'm also aware of at least 5 incidents where there has been an accidental discharge while in the process of taking down a glock. 2 of those ND's involved injury. A third was fatal. Bear in mind, these aren't "Internet" reports that I've read somewhere, these were people I know/knew personally. In the fatal case, it was the father of one of my daughter's classmates and a fellow Knight in the K of C. There is no perfectly safe pistol, and that has to be taken into consideration at all times when handling them.


What does that have to do with a Glock? When you have idiots launch a round while taking down a Glock, the only thing that can be deduced from that is that you had 5 people that shouldn't be around firearms.

Sorry, but that is the reality of your sample of 5. There is ZERO excuse for ever having a ND while taking a firearm down. There are steps you take EVERY single time you do it that make ND's impossible to happen. 1) Drop magazine 2) lock slide/action to rear 3) check chamber for ammunition both visually and physically. If you do those three things its impossible to have a ND with ANY firearm.

There is never an excuse for pulling the trigger on a firearm and NOT KNOWING exactly what will happen.

For the most part ALL firearms are safe if you simply follow strict safety standards.

Don't blame the gun for other peoples irresponsible handling of a gun and perpetuate a bunch of bull shit that will get spread around as fact.

[Long Tom Coffin]

In my experience, after you take these three classes you will probably have a much better idea of what additional hardware you really need. I'd suggest that you hold off overthinking your next handgun purchase until you complete and digest all three classes.

ETA: Sounds uncool, but seriously consider bringing a notepad to class. In addition to the details of lectures and drills, write down those gear-related epiphanies when they occur, major or minor.


I always bring notepads. And I'm not really overthinking anything. The stuff I currently had listed above, with the exception of the trijicon NS (or actually, I might go Ameriglo. A buddy has a M&P with i-dots on them so I'm going to check them too.) is stuff that I have tested out previously on other guns (for example, the holsters). I had a chance to shoot an M&P both with and without the Apex and I definitely prefer it. Cane & Derby I had never even heard of until the guy who owns the Apex'd M&P let me use one of their stippled backstraps. Coincidentally he will also be teaching the Carbine class :)

[Long Tom Coffin]

What does that have to do with a Glock? When you have idiots launch a round while taking down a Glock, the only thing that can be deduced from that is that you had 5 people that shouldn't be around firearms.



It had nothing to do with Glock per se and everything to do with Gun safety in general.




Sorry, but that is the reality of your sample of 5. There is ZERO excuse for ever having a ND while taking a firearm down.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. This point was already made by a previous poster 3 days ago or so, if you care to read it.



There are steps you take EVERY single time you do it that make ND's impossible to happen. 1) Drop magazine 2) lock slide/action to rear 3) check chamber for ammunition both visually and physically. If you do those three things its impossible to have a ND with ANY firearm.


As everyone on this board is quite aware, I'm sure. Given that, and the fact that I am completely aware of the same and have never had an ND, I'm sure it's quite unnecessary to post a simplified take down manual.



There is never an excuse for pulling the trigger on a firearm and NOT KNOWING exactly what will happen.

Duh. I think everyone on this board is aware of that. You'd probably do more good if you posted that on Glocktalk instead :jester:




For the most part ALL firearms are safe if you simply follow strict safety standards.




Okay, so the original point is.....just out of your grasp. But you're close! A previous poster had mentioned (erroneously, might I add) that M&P's were non-DS. My first point in mentioning the glocks is that even had the M&P's been actually non-DS, (which they aren't), there would still be no real excuse for dropping your weapon, much as their is no excuse for not verifying an empty chamber and mag well before taking down a glock. But the M&P is definitively drop safe, so the point is probably moot at this time. Was it a bad analogy on my part? Maybe. As you can see from the last line in my post which you quoted, I made mention that there is no safe (read: idiot proof) pistol, and the fact that one poster was incorrectly labeling M&P's as non-drop safe didn't bug me because I don't drop or do otherwise stupid things with my guns. Sorry if you didn't get the inference. I'll spell it out plainly next time.


Don't blame the gun for other peoples irresponsible handling of a gun and perpetuate a bunch of bull shit that will get spread around as fact.


Wow. You really missed the boat again. Here, let me repeat the last line of my post again:

There is no perfectly safe pistol, and that has to be taken into consideration at all times when handling them.

Obviously, what I was trying to accomplish was to indicate that gun safety was a top priority and care should be taken at all times by all individuals in all aspects of firearms handling. Apparently, because I didn't slander a dead man and other individuals I know as morons or stupid or foolish, I am now apparently perpetuating a bunch of "internet bullshit'.

The "points" you have chosen to grace me with have already been made by another poster, in a far less ignorant and incendiary manner, might I add. For your benefit, here's my initial response to him:



Apologies are unnecessary. Negligence, then. In any case, it's an argument over semantics. One should never attempt to take down a loaded glock just like one should never either accidentally or negligently drop a loaded pistol, regardless of make, model or caliber.

Did you read this already, or did you just skim parts of the thread?