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GLP Standard
10-29-07, 13:57
First off, I just wanted to say that this is my first post on these forums. For some unknown reason, I enjoy posting on forums, and I'm a member to quite a few. I just bought my first AR-15, which is my first rifle in general, so I'm sure ill be on here a lot more as I modify it over time.

That being said, Ill go ahead with my first question.

Has anyone used Wolf ammunition? .223 is so friggin expensive ($10+ for a box of 20 rounds? :eek: I can put that down range in less than 3 minutes) so Im looking for a decent round that wont break my bank, that I can possibly buy in bulk (maybe 200 rounds at a time). Wolf ammo came up, which ive heard of before, but never had any interest in buying it, because I always just bought 100 rounds of Winchester White Box for my .40 cal and it wasnt too bad. My supervisor at work uses it, and he says its very dirty, and not that accurate at all (heard that before). Just wondering, whats everyones take on it? Do you recommend it for punching holes in paper? I heard that they put some kind of coating over their rounds that eventually over time ruin the barrel of the weapon. Is this true? I dont want to take a chance of doing any damage to my AR, so if thats true at all, then I wont touch it. What about FTF's or jamming? Are either of these an issue with Wolf Ammo? Im not worried about having to clean my weapon more often with Wolf Ammo, because I clean my guns within 3 days after shooting them anyways (Ill feel bad if I dont) but as long as half the box doesnt FTF, and the rounds dont jam every other round, and it wont damage my weapon, Its fine with me.

Also, where is a good place to order Ammunition in bulk online, whether it be Wolf or not? www.gulfcoastammunition.com advertises .223 55gr Wolf for $63.00/500 rounds in Shotgun News, but their website is very much under construction, and I dont know how much I would trust that anyway

Saginaw79
10-29-07, 15:35
Wolf ammo is fine, i shoot it all the time for practice

sjc3081
10-29-07, 16:07
I shoot Wolf in my two Colts and my Bushie. My personal expirance is it is fine for practice.

GLP Standard
10-30-07, 14:43
Thanks for the info. I found a good deal on Ultramax at Cabellas. I can get a box of 50 FMJ 55gr for $16.99, or a box of 50 JHP, 52gr for $18.99. Anyone ever dealt with them? They seem to be a lot better quality than Wolf ammo, and it looks much cleaner, yet they only average maybe $2.50 more for a box of 20 than Wolf. I was thinking about trying some out. Anyone see a problem with this manufacturer, other than the fact that it's all reloads? Read the reviews they have at the link below, and all 34 of them said nothing but good things, and most people gave it 5 out of 5 stars, with a couple 4 out of 5 star ratings.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0003715212964a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=.223&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=.223&noImage=0

Shihan
10-30-07, 15:20
I would rather get kicked in the junk than use Wolf in my AR's. I do shoot it through my AK's as that is what it is made for.

R1pper
10-30-07, 16:54
I would shoot wolf before I would shoot Ultramax through my rifle.


http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6479&highlight=ultramax

RogerinTPA
10-30-07, 18:04
I shoot a lot of wolf, ammo prices being what they are. I have shot close the 4k rounds so far through a colt 6920 and a SDI mid-length/colt lower hybrid, both 1/7 twist. Zero malfunctions. Surprisingly good accuracy using EOTech sights with the 55 grain Military classic and 62 grain poly ammo. :)

gyp_c2
10-30-07, 18:39
I think Midway just got in some Black Hills blue box...If you wanna' try reloads, these are very good...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif
...oops, too late...shows gonegonegone...

toddackerman
11-01-07, 17:31
I think Midway just got in some Black Hills blue box...If you wanna' try reloads, these are very good...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif
...oops, too late...shows gonegonegone...

Or...you could reload, and pay $.17 per each round. $170.00 per thousand, and that includes Hazmat fees, but you need to combine primers and powder together. It's also a great way to relieve stress. BTW this price is based on shooting a processed round of Mil brass 6 times. $.092 amortized over 6 loadings.

Tack

gyp_c2
11-01-07, 17:57
...agreed...
By far the least cost per round...Sometimes you just can't use them though...I trust mine...
But I wouldn't trust many others...
Black Hills is one of them I do trust, YMMV...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

Don Robison
11-01-07, 18:02
I just shot another 300 rounds of Wolf through my 6920 today. Five years ago I wouldn't touch it, this past year I find myself shooting more and more of it for training.

toddackerman
11-01-07, 18:13
...agreed...
By far the least cost per round...Sometimes you just can't use them though...I trust mine...
But I wouldn't trust many others...
Black Hills is one of them I do trust, YMMV...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

I trust mine completely since I went to a Dillon Progressive press 17 years ago. I've had both the 450 and 550. Not one bad round in over 100,000 reloads including .45 ACP. .308, 9mm and of course our beloved 5.56mm.

As far as over the counter reloads go, I also trust Black Hills 100%. IF you could trust the brass they get from Uncle Sam not to have been in a SAW (too much stress on the brass), I wouldn't hesitate to use them for SHTF. I received some once fired processed brass from a vendor that definitely was used in over size chambered weapons (like a SAW), and have had a few (1%) case separations on the first reload, and my chamber/ bolt is in spec.

FWIW...www.scharch .com is the best place I have found for consistent quality, once fired, processed brass. It's going for $77.00/ 1,000 delivered. The only issue is that like all components, it's gone up about 50% in the last year or so. But...I do trust their quality.

Tack

Iraq Ninja
11-01-07, 23:21
I shoot a lot of wolf, due to the cost of ammo.

It is dirty, and appears to have some partially or totally unburnt powder residue. It actually caused my HK 416 upper to fowl in the gas piston chamber, resulting in malfunctions.

gyp_c2
11-01-07, 23:51
I received some once fired processed brass from a vendor that definitely was used in over size chambered weapons (like a SAW), and have had a few (1%) case separations on the first reload, and my chamber/ bolt is in spec.

...I saw that other thread...sucks but it's still cheap...at least you didn't get any damage...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

TY44934
11-05-07, 15:19
First off: "Wolf Ammunition" covers about 5 or 10 different makers of ammo in dozens of calibers. Some is good, some not so good.

For example:

"Wolf" .22 LR ?? - it is some of the highest quality and most sought after 22 made right now. Prices are way up as a result.

"Wolf" 12 gauge slugs ?? They are made in Germany by Scheonbeck and of excellent quality (the Germans make many high quality products.)

On the other hand, this site is calle M4Carbine.net. You are likely asking about Wolf .223 ammunition. The latest production Wolf 223 is quite reliable in AR type rifles (unlike the earlier imported Wolf 223).

The consistency is not as good as most US made 223, and if you test accuracy with a hunting scope at 100 yards, you might be disappointed. Sniping ammo, this is not.

However, everyone has noticed the prevelence of Dot sights on ARs these days, and an emphasis on usable accuracy at "carbine" distances; AR courses often limit the range in class to 100 yards or less. Wolf is adequate under these circumstances. It does small bad. It is dirty and you should expect to clean the gun often.

I use it in my 5.56 cal AK variants (S-AM5R and SAR-3) as well as my AR carbines.

rob_s
11-05-07, 15:34
Wolf 62 grain shows the least amount of POI shift in my 6933 with Ops 15th model when zeroed with Black Hills 75 grain. FWIW.

Saginaw79
11-05-07, 22:04
I would rather get kicked in the junk than use Wolf in my AR's. I do shoot it through my AK's as that is what it is made for.

Then you either like pain for no reason or enjoy getting kicked in the junk:rolleyes:

Resq47
11-05-07, 23:07
I shoot the recent Wolf in 1k+ 2day and 3 day classes as well as matches and practice. Pretty much whenever I can and avoid dipping into the shiny stuff in reserve. Any issues I've had with the import steel case ammunition has been with Wolf/Silver Bear lacquered cases and/or SP rounds.

Even then, the quality of training was significantly improved over the other option...which was to not shoot and just make 'Bang' noises verbally.

eta - Nice shot of the river and bean elevator Sag79 ;)

Shihan
11-06-07, 12:14
Then you either like pain for no reason or enjoy getting kicked in the junk:rolleyes:


Well I do like getting kicked in the junk so I know its still there:p I prefer to shoot brass cased ammo to avoid any possible wear problems. I will however be putting together a upper out of old parts to shoot steel cased ammo through to save a few bucks.

sjc3081
11-06-07, 12:17
How about shooting Wolf and every six cases you could buy a new Colt with the money you saved.

rob_s
11-06-07, 12:35
I prefer to shoot brass cased ammo to avoid any possible wear problems.

You do understand that this is flawed logic, right? Lets just use ammoman as an example, understanding that the effect of price/case on price/round is minimal.

Ammoman sells 1k rounds of SS109 for $400. He also sells 1k rounds of Wolf for $250. That's a $150 savings per 1k rounds.

Now, lets address the wear items. What items are going to wear faster? The extractor? The whole bolt? The chamber/barrel? Let's be aggressive and say all three. A new bolt comes with the extractor, and costs $60 +/-. A new barrel, with FSB, FH, etc. is $340. So the total cost of the wear items is $400+/-.

Within 3 cases of shooting the Wolf ammo, you have saved $50 on the WORST case scenario for wear. Everything after that is free money to the tune of $150/1k. If you, more reasonably, figure that the barrel/chamber will actually be fine, then you could buy a case of Wolf, plus a bolt, and STILL be ahead of the game and change out your bolt with every case of ammo!

Failure2Stop
11-06-07, 14:02
rob s, sjc3081-

Your logic is sound. I am converted.

Blessed be thine Wolf. . . amen.

rob_s
11-06-07, 14:05
rob s, sjc3081-

Your logic is sound. I am converted.

Blessed be thine Wolf. . . amen.

Mind if I use that in my sigline? ;)

Hawgleg44
11-06-07, 14:12
There's nothing wrong with Wolf .223 for basic training/blasting ammo. For target use, the accuracy just isn't there. But, 12" steel plates out to 200 yards are easily hit.

I was always hesitant to shoot Wolf in my AR's until I ran into Al Zitta at the club one day. He's the owner of ZM Weapons Systems and was testing out some new builds. He was blasting away full auto with Wolf with zero problems.

After that, I started buying Wolf and enjoyed the savings. I've had one malfunction with Wolf. It was the strangest thing ever. I was shooting the newer polymer coated .223 and my friend was shooting the older laquer coated in his AR. He had a stuck case and the extractor ripped the rim of the case right off. Then, a few shots later, I had the same thing happen to me! Other than that one malfunction years ago, and many, many thousands of rounds of Wolf later, it's been 100% reliable since then. I didn't wipe out the chamber before shooting that day, and neither did my friend, so we just guessed that excess oil in the chamber caused the cases to get stuck. Not sure, but it's just a guess.

Just last weekend I was at the MG shoot playing with three M16's, among many other toys, too. Each one saw at least 4000 rounds of Wolf .223 that day without any malfunctions. Every once in a while, they would be quickly blasted out with brake cleaner and hosed down with Remoil, but no real cleaning until the weekend was over. The uppers used were one POF with an 11" barrel, one 16" Bushy with an AK-74 style brake, and a 10-1/2" Bushy.

Don't worry about shooting Wolf out of your AR. In the past few years, I've shot 10 cases out of five different AR's and one Daewoo AR-100 sidefolder, and I've had no problems at all.

With the amount of money you'll save on a case of ammo, it won't take long to notice a huge difference if you do any amount of shooting. I was in a bind when I ran out of Wolf .223 at the shoot, and I wasn't ready to call it a day, so I had to buy a case of ammo. Unfortunately, the dealer was out of Wolf, so I had to buy a 1000 round case of S&B 55gr at $335. That hurt, but it sure was fun!

Shihan
11-06-07, 17:19
You do understand that this is flawed logic, right? Lets just use ammoman as an example, understanding that the effect of price/case on price/round is minimal.

Ammoman sells 1k rounds of SS109 for $400. He also sells 1k rounds of Wolf for $250. That's a $150 savings per 1k rounds.

Now, lets address the wear items. What items are going to wear faster? The extractor? The whole bolt? The chamber/barrel? Let's be aggressive and say all three. A new bolt comes with the extractor, and costs $60 +/-. A new barrel, with FSB, FH, etc. is $340. So the total cost of the wear items is $400+/-.

Within 3 cases of shooting the Wolf ammo, you have saved $50 on the WORST case scenario for wear. Everything after that is free money to the tune of $150/1k. If you, more reasonably, figure that the barrel/chamber will actually be fine, then you could buy a case of Wolf, plus a bolt, and STILL be ahead of the game and change out your bolt with every case of ammo!


Yes this is all true which is why im throwing together another AR that will use Wolfie with no worries. I just cant get myself to shoot it through my LMT's. I have a few 1000 rounds sitting around of Wolf that I will use in the new gun. Another thing about replacing parts is that someday they may be not so easy to find if things dont go well for us politically. Currently im using factory brass reloads that I get for less than the cost of Wolf. Its nice being a dealer:p

markm
11-07-07, 16:06
I don't care about Rob_s's fancy city slicker economics. :p

Shooting steel cased rifle ammo is unAmerican. I did however buy one box of wolf and shoot it last weekend so people couldn't say I never tried it.

In all seriousness, I'd rather shoot less than shoot wolf.

KintlaLake
11-07-07, 16:23
...im throwing together another AR that will use Wolfie with no worries. ...

Ok, now you guys are losing me on the whole save-money-by-shooting-Wolf thang... :rolleyes: ;)

rob_s
11-07-07, 17:59
In all seriousness, I'd rather shoot less than shoot wolf.

Exact opposite for me.

If I was running my own gun this year I was planning on shooting Pat's 3-day carbine with nothing but 62 grain Wolf this year.

Hawgleg44
11-07-07, 20:43
In all seriousness, I'd rather shoot less than shoot wolf.

Why? Is it a principal thing or did you have some sort of problem with the 20 rounds of Wolf you shot?

Anything that allows me to train more is a good thing. That was Wolf in the past. But now, with the cost of Wolf rising so rapidly, the difference between Wolf and S&B is only about $30/1000. For $30, I'll shoot the S&B and reload it with pulled bullets, and primers and powder I buy in bulk to save money.

I miss the $99/1000 Wolf .223 from about three years ago :(

I know that the cost of Wolf 7.62x39 skyrocketed due to Wolf getting the contract to supply the Iraqi military and police forces. It's a simple supply and demand thing. But, what's the excuse for the Wolf .223 prices? No military is using it that I know of. I know metal costs have risen dramatically in the past few years, thanks to China buying up every bit of scrap they can at inflated prices, but over $200 for a case of Wolf .223 is crazy.

markm
11-08-07, 07:52
Why? Is it a principal thing or did you have some sort of problem with the 20 rounds of Wolf you shot?


My principal doesn't care what ammo I use. But it is a little bit of a principle thing. I grew up knowing the value of A box of ammo. When I went shooting with my Dad and family, we shot rimfire if we wanted to burn ammo up. We never bought a case of .223 and bump fired into a hill side or some retarded shit. So... I'm not really a Johnny come lately shooter who feels it's my God given right to have a steady supply of cheap ammo for wasteful use. (not that I'm accusing anyone here of that... but I've seen some real morons over the years)

The 20 rounds of wolf I shot ran fine. I've seen it stop up guns in classes though.

I have all the brass and reloading components I can use right now. So I can shoot just as much as I want without having to resort to the Wolf.

In fact, I haven't bought a note worthy amount of 5.56/223 ammo in a few years... a box or two to try out every so often... But my last 500 round ammo purchase was AE223 that cost me $5 per box delivered.

markm
11-08-07, 07:53
Exact opposite for me.

You should build an AMMO CHART! :cool: :D

Hawgleg44
11-08-07, 20:08
My principal doesn't care what ammo I use. But it is a little bit of a principle thing. I grew up knowing the value of A box of ammo. When I went shooting with my Dad and family, we shot rimfire if we wanted to burn ammo up. We never bought a case of .223 and bump fired into a hill side or some retarded shit. So... I'm not really a Johnny come lately shooter who feels it's my God given right to have a steady supply of cheap ammo for wasteful use. (not that I'm accusing anyone here of that... but I've seen some real morons over the years)

The 20 rounds of wolf I shot ran fine. I've seen it stop up guns in classes though.

I have all the brass and reloading components I can use right now. So I can shoot just as much as I want without having to resort to the Wolf.

In fact, I haven't bought a note worthy amount of 5.56/223 ammo in a few years... a box or two to try out every so often... But my last 500 round ammo purchase was AE223 that cost me $5 per box delivered.

I totally agree about bump firing/rapid fire wastes of ammo. I go through a fair amount of ammo doing firing while moving drills, weapons transition, etc, but I don't do any blasting away and hitting nothing like I've seen a lot of people do at the club. I think some of them would be just as satisfied if they were shooting blanks and just making noise, since they do nothing but see the dirt move on the backstop.

My only exception to this is my once a year machine gun shoot. I did shoot about 4000 rounds a few weekends ago between the M16's, 1919's, Uzi, G3, AC556 and AK-47. It's good to have friends who can afford to own MG's!

To save on ammo costs, I usually don't even train with my .223 AR's, even with my reloads. I have Oly 9mm and .45acp AR's that eat up my cast bullet reloads, so that's what I use. It costs me next to nothing since I cast my own bullets from free wheelweights, I have 5 gallon buckets full of brass for every caliber I load (except for my 10mm, I only have about 500 pieces of brass for that), and I buy primers and powder in bulk. That way, I can afford to train a lot more than I would if I used my .223's.

I read an article about using Wolf in a training class. I believe it was written by Patrick Sweeney. If I remember correctly, the only stoppages he had were from a very hot barrel with a round that remained chambered for a while and the polymer coating on the steel case melted, cooled and hardened, sticking the case in the chamber. Is that the kind of malfunction you've seen at classes, or were they other types? I've experienced one stuck case in all the Wolf I've fired, but no other malfunctions.

markm
11-09-07, 07:52
Yep!

I'd always get into trouble for telling the tards on TOS to buy a cap gun when they'd ask how to bumpfire! :D

I did read that Sweeny article too. The STAG and Wolf ammo article.

To me buying ammo is a way of getting brass. So when I buy wolf, even though is much cheaper, I don't get another couple of loads out of the empties.

rob_s
11-09-07, 08:17
the only stoppages he had were from a very hot barrel with a round that remained chambered for a while and the polymer coating on the steel case melted, cooled and hardened, sticking the case in the chamber.

Remember that this was his theory. I would have been more inclined to blame the chamber on the Stag than blame the ammo. At least until the chamber could be reamed/checked to ensure that it was in spec.

Of course, the article was written to praise the Stag, so better to blame the ammo than the gun. ;)

Hawgleg44
11-09-07, 10:45
Rob-

I definately see your point about the article being written for several reasons:

-To promote Stag Arms AR's,
-To advertise the combat medic course, and
-To a lesser point, advertise Wolf ammo.

I agree that it's a theory, but I do see some validity to it. Honestly, I've never fired quite that many rounds through an AR without a break, except for the M16's at the MG Shoots. And at the MG Shoots, the M16's aren't kept loaded for any amount of time. If they are loaded, they are being shot, so I can't comment on whether it's a fact or not.

Even though it's a theory, I do agree with it. Heat will definately melt the polymer coating. And, if it's left there while the barrel cools, as mentioned in the article, the polymer would turn back from a liquid to a solid, acting as an adhesive, possibly sticking the round in the chamber.

True? Well, I'll have to go the Mythbuster way and say "Plausible". Hmm....maybe we should e-mail them and let them burn up the ammo and test this "myth", since I don't want to waste my ammo!

As for me, I'll stick with my pistol caliber AR's with my cast bullet reloads unless I need the .223 for a carbine class again. At my last class, it was in the middle of winter, standing in a foot of snow, so I let my Wolf cases fly and not think twice about it. No malfunctions, either. I'm going in for my 7th spinal surgery in a few weeks, so my next carbine class and competition I'm designing won't be until Spring, so I'll use my reloads for that. I only have about 500 rounds of Wolf .223 left, and I'll save that for crap weather so I can just let it fly. I'm one of those shooters who will spend 15 minutes looking for that one last piece of reloadable brass that I just know has to be right under my feet!

ST911
11-09-07, 16:05
Remember that this was his theory. I would have been more inclined to blame the chamber on the Stag than blame the ammo. At least until the chamber could be reamed/checked to ensure that it was in spec.
Of course, the article was written to praise the Stag, so better to blame the ammo than the gun. ;)

Earlier this summer, I had two rounds of Wolf lock up two AR6520s with stuck cases. A greater number evidencing hard extraction. This was the non-lacquer, 55gr JHP. One gun was older, one newer, both already known-good with multiple ammo types. Both running Crane O-ring kits.

Colleauges in a Bushmaster agency that shoots mostly Wolf reported more of these events.

RogerinTPA
11-09-07, 20:42
Can anyone logically explain to me why all the drama over this ammo besides not being made in America and not brass? The former eastern bloc countries have been using the lacquered stuff for decades and they don't sell the lacquered stuff in th U.S. any more due to numerous complaints from American shooters. There are "batch" issues with all types of ammo, weapons, cars, ect... Most of the time, you get a good or great batch of ammo from brand X, and on occasion, you'll get a batch of crap. I know people who've had bad experiences with even the so called "premium" brass ammo makers. It happens. I agree with Rob_S. The arguments are pretty illogical and more personal preference. Anecdotal stories that are quick to blame the ammo instead of the weapon and/or, lack of operator knowledge.

Anyone getting heckled on the range for using steel cased ammo? Anyone pointing at you and laughing? Come on. I for one, refuse to buy astronomically priced brass ammo when I can get more training and get more practice with good quality steel cased ammo. Just seems the belly aching comes from folks that are: 1. prejudice, 2. purchased a substandard weapon and has to blame something or someone, 3. poor or no lube and 4. bad magazines.

Use a "quality " weapon and lube, and perform periodic PMCS (preventive maintenance checks and services) and shoot till u get your fill. You'll get more shooting and training, and most importantly, improve your skills. As long as I don't have to pay your bills, I guess you are free to do what you wish. Using Wolf, will save you a crap load of training cost. Just like the GEICO commercial. Besides, with the money you save, you can buy more "attachments" for your AR's and attend more training classes. :p

Happy Shooting!

markm
11-09-07, 21:11
You make a GREAT POINT!

Let me buy the best AR available, and feed it the SHITiest ammo available!:rolleyes:

And While we're at it... why does our stupid military fly those Fancy F-16s and such, when We could just as well fly some migs?

Stupid Westerners! Always wanting to do shit the right way! Such fools!:eek:

RogerinTPA
11-09-07, 21:51
Because the US Military has a Budget paid by TAXPAYERS and we don't! :eek:

Don Robison
11-09-07, 22:50
You make a GREAT POINT!

Let me buy the best AR available, and feed it the SHITiest ammo available!:rolleyes:

And While we're at it... why does our stupid military fly those Fancy F-16s and such, when We could just as well fly some migs?

Stupid Westerners! Always wanting to do shit the right way! Such fools!:eek:

And we do use some Russian aircraft other than the stuff used for Red flag. The Mi17 and An26.

Hawgleg44
11-10-07, 00:49
You make a GREAT POINT!

Let me buy the best AR available, and feed it the SHITiest ammo available!:rolleyes:


Other than your horrible experience with the 20 rounds you've fired without any malfunctions, what is your problem with Wolf? Sure, I don't shoot it as much as I used to since I'm using mostly .223 reloads or my pistol caliber AR's, but if the price was anywhere near what it used to be, I'd still be feeding it to all of my AR's. I miss those $99 cases of .223!

I know you hate Wolf because it's steel case and "un-American". But, if it allows people to shoot more, train more, and build skills, that sounds very "American" to me. I've heard of the occasional stuck case problem. In all the thousands of rounds of Wolf I've fired in six different .223 AR's, I've had that happen once. I've also had a bent rim on a brass cased Lake City 5.56 cause a malfunction, too.

IMO, anything people can do to train more is a good thing. If that means shooting Wolf if they don't reload, great. I'd rather see someone build their skills with their firearms by shooting "unAmerican" steel cased Wolf than to have the attitude of "I'd rather shoot less than shoot Wolf" and not have the skills they need.

I showed up at a carbine class one time with Wolf, and one of the instructors said that he couldn't believe I was shooting that "crap". I asked why, and he said it was "dirty". Wow, you mean I'll have to clean my AR after I shoot? That's a new concept! I made it through the class without any malfunctions, and I shot the highest score, too.

If there was a legitimate reason to be so down on a brand of ammo, fine. But, you have never had a problem with it at all. Every one of the 20 rounds of Wolf you fired worked just as they were supposed to! I can see you calling it "shitty" ammo if you had a problem. But you didn't!

Lumpy196
11-10-07, 03:07
And we do use some Russian aircraft other than the stuff used for Red flag. The Mi17 and An26.



Well we've certainly brought this down to some esoteric minutia.

rob_s
11-10-07, 07:20
If I hadn't already promised KAC that I'd use XM193 in their T&E rifle I'd run nothing but Wolf 62 through it in my Pat Rogers class next month.

I'm sure all sorts of people would have heart-failure because someone put such garbage ammo in such a nice gun.:rolleyes:

rob_s
11-10-07, 07:22
Let me buy the best AR available, and feed it the SHITiest ammo available!:rolleyes:


A better question would be, why are you so concerned with what other people use/shoot? If it works for them, and if they're out there getting training with it, what do you care?

By your own admission, you have such disdain for Wolf ammo that you've only ever fired 20 rounds of the stuff. Frankly, this makes you inherently unqualified to participate in this discussion. ;)

Submariner
11-10-07, 08:26
As the Yankee dollar moves to parity with the Mexican peso, you will see the price of the eurotrash ammo rise.

Jes' watch.

Don Robison
11-10-07, 09:52
Well we've certainly brought this down to some esoteric minutia.


Sorry couldn't resist.

Pinnacle
11-10-07, 10:28
My first AR was a Colt MT6400C that I purchased during the AW ban. The first two thousand rounds through it were WOLF (the old lacquered kind). The only failures of any kind were when I ran it too dry.

Now that I have a clue as to what an AR needs to function properly, that same COLT (now de-neutered) will eat WOLF or any other ammo all day long as long as I keep it nice and wet. The new WOLF is better than it was but is still underpowered and a bit dirtier than some. I buy as much of it as I can afford though because like Rob S says you can't beat the price for training ammo and worse case scenario means you have to replace some parts earlier than the normal interval.

GLP Standard
11-12-07, 04:00
While we're on the topic of ammo, so I dont have to start a new thread, whats involved in reloading? What would I need to buy to get started? How many rounds would I have to shoot and reload to start saving money? How much would it cost me to get started? I know nothing about it, so talk to me like I'm stupid (like everyone does in other words)

rob_s
11-12-07, 04:15
While we're on the topic of ammo, so I dont have to start a new thread, whats involved in reloading? What would I need to buy to get started? How many rounds would I have to shoot and reload to start saving money? How much would it cost me to get started? I know nothing about it, so talk to me like I'm stupid (like everyone does in other words)
www.dillonprecision.com

Don't bother with anything else.

Reloading for me is a chore and I despise it. I hate every aspect of it, from glomming used brass off the range like some kind of homeless crack-head picking up aluminum cans to standing in front of the press like some $10/week illegal immigrant factory worker. However, it can be a necessary evil for some.

markm
11-12-07, 07:16
You guys still talking about this nonsense?:cool:

Hawgleg44
11-12-07, 10:04
You guys still talking about this nonsense?:cool:
Helping someone get started in reloading is "nonsense"? Lucky for you, the person who taught you how to reload didn't feel the same way.

I'll 2nd the recommendation for Dillon equipment. You'll need a case tumbler, corncob tumbling media and case cleaner (I know people who use brass polish or car wax, and they don't seem to have any problems). If you use military brass, you'll need to remove the primer crimp after depriming. You can buy the Dillon tool, but I just use a 1/4" ball mill. One twist of the case on the handheld mill and the crimp is gone. It's a lot faster than using the Dillon tool.

If you have the money, I'd recommend the 650 so it automatically indexes. If not, do what I did and buy the 550B. All that means is that you'll have to manually index to the next station.

Get a good set of dies, including a taper crimp die, or Lee factory crimp die. Both work well. You'll also need some case lube spray since the dies won't be carbide and the cases will stick if you don't use it. Use it sparingly, you don't need much at all.

You'll also need a powder scale. Digital is good, but far from necessary. Also, a set of Vernier dial callipers so measure the cartridge overall length. The max length will be listed in the reloading manuals.

As for the reloading manuals, buy several of them. Buy Lyman, Modern Reloading by Richard Lee and Speer to start, but buy as many as possible. You'll find good information in all of them.

Then you'll have to buy the components. You probably already have the brass, and you'll need primers, powder and bullets.

Since you really don't know much at all about reloading, read a lot, ask a lot of questions, and what would be very good for you is to find an NRA Reloading Instructor in your area. The NRA can give you a list of them. That way, you can take the class, learn what you need to, and have an experienced reloader there to answer any questions you have.

If you are starting fresh buying all the equipment, it's going to take a while to start saving money. But, the equipment is a one time expenditure. After it pays itself off, you don't have to think about it again, ever. Then it's just buying components.

markm
11-12-07, 10:20
Helping someone get started in reloading is "nonsense"? Lucky for you, the person who taught you how to reload didn't feel the same way.

No. Justifying wolf ammo is nonsense! ;)

Reloading is the way to go.

Someone made a great point about wolf over on TOS. Something to the effect of Wolf being a much crappier round when it was $3 per box. Now that it's $5 per box it's much better ammo! ;)

All kidding aside... I can't totally fault someone for shooting wolf. I'm lucky enough to be able to do all the shooting I want without having to buy a single newly manufactured box of ammo. Due to reloading, I haven't bought bulk ammo in about two years.

GLP Standard
11-12-07, 12:39
Thanks for all the help about reloading...one more question though. Can certain rounds be reloaded, and certain rounds not? I know ive seen rounds that say "non-reloadable" or something to that affect. What makes certain rounds reloadable and others not? Also, how many times can you reload a casing before it becomes nonreloadable? Okay...that was a few questions, not one.

markm
11-12-07, 12:48
Pistol brass can be reloaded til the rim wears off.

Rifle brass can be loaded up to 6+ times if your a real miser. I used to load once and once only. Now with nutjobs PAYING for brass, I try to get 2 loads per case.

Trimming brass will be an issue if you load more than that. Beyond that, you can get case separations and neck splits.... so I just keep my brass pool fresh.

Submariner
11-12-07, 14:04
Pistol brass can be reloaded til the rim wears off.

Rifle brass can be loaded up to 6+ times if your a real miser. I used to load once and once only. Now with nutjobs PAYING for brass, I try to get 2 loads per case.

Trimming brass will be an issue if you load more than that. Beyond that, you can get case separations and neck splits.... so I just keep my brass pool fresh.

Do you still load Remington only? How are you keeping the brass pool fresh if you are not buying?

I found it simpler, not cheaper, to buy bulk Remingting UMC cheap and save my brass.

markm
11-12-07, 14:57
Do you still load Remington only? How are you keeping the brass pool fresh if you are not buying?

I found it simpler, not cheaper, to buy bulk Remingting UMC cheap and save my brass.

I reload ANY and EVERYTHING I can get my hands on. I reload whatever once fired I find at the range. Although finding remington is like hitting the jackpot. (no crimps, good annealing, no trimming required)

But now I have a tool to remove crimps.... since most of the brass I shag is crimped these days.

What I also have been doing is shooting up some of the AE223 that I bought just before the price explosions.

Submariner
11-12-07, 19:35
To save on range membership fees, I shoot at home. All I have been finding lately is Remington.

At least I am assured it hasn't been through a SAW.;)

jmart
11-12-07, 22:29
Reloading for me is a chore and I despise it. I hate every aspect of it, from glomming used brass off the range like some kind of homeless crack-head picking up aluminum cans to standing in front of the press like some $10/week illegal immigrant factory worker.

Somehow, I picture you in your golden years scouring the beaches of FL with some metal detector (http://www.garrett.com/hobby/products.htm). And you'll come across some other old geezer and you'll start a flame war on whose detector is better. In fact, I see a chart in your future, all the various metal detectors lined up across the top, with the advice of, "just make sure you stay on the left side of the chart and all will be well".

markm
11-13-07, 07:16
Reloading for me is a chore and I despise it.

I'm now convinced you're a communist. :D

1. You don't clean your guns.
2. You shoot matches in Magnum PI shirts.
3. You shoot WOLF AMMO and like it... and,
4. You hate the reloading game.

(sorry for the late analysis, I didn't see your Godless comment until jmart quoted you)

rob_s
11-13-07, 07:19
I'm now convinced you're a communist. :D


I prefer to think of myself as a fascist-anarchist actually.:cool:

markm
11-13-07, 07:40
In either case you're upsetting the balance of the shooting ecosystem. Guys like me count on you shooting AE223 and such so we can follow you around the range holding an empty bag just outside your ejection port! :p

rob_s
11-13-07, 07:43
In either case you're upsetting the balance of the shooting ecosystem. Guys like me count on you shooting AE223 and such so we can follow you around the range holding an empty bag just outside your ejection port! :p

I once asked a range chicken that kept getting in the way at an IDPA match "If I give you $5 will you go away and stop doing that?" :D

markm
11-13-07, 07:52
That's funny. Reminds me of those fr00tie shot drink peddling hookers when we used to go shoot pool.

"here's a bunch of cash, just stop coming over here with that tray of stupid sex on the beach shots every five minutes."

jmart
11-13-07, 07:54
I once asked a range chicken that kept getting in the way at an IDPA match "If I give you $5 will you go away and stop doing that?" :D

Did it work?

rob_s
11-13-07, 09:02
Did it work?

Actually, he was somewhat shamed into stopping, so I got what I wanted AND kept my $5!:D

Shihan
11-13-07, 12:16
Somehow, I picture you in your golden years scouring the beaches of FL with some metal detector (http://www.garrett.com/hobby/products.htm). And you'll come across some other old geezer and you'll start a flame war on whose detector is better. In fact, I see a chart in your future, all the various metal detectors lined up across the top, with the advice of, "just make sure you stay on the left side of the chart and all will be well".

LMAO!!

R1pper
11-13-07, 12:33
Since I finally finished my franken Stag ive run mainly wolf through it. Ive only shot about 200 rnds of brass. I have had one FTE when I was using this really shitty laquer coated steel cased no name stuff I bought (thought it was a good deal at time $40 for 180 rnds) This past sunday three of us ran a case of 500 each, through our sticks and we had no problems at all and one was a Bushy. As far as I am concerned I will drink the Wolf "Kool Aid" till brass ammo comes down in price or I some how start getting ammo for free.

Hawgleg44
11-13-07, 15:37
As far as I am concerned I will drink the Wolf "Kool Aid" till brass ammo comes down in price or I some how start getting ammo for free.

I think it's much more likely that you'll see the price of Wolf continue to rise up to, or close to the price of brass cased ammo (hell, it's close to that now) than seeing the price of brass cased ammo drop.

Unfortunately, ammo prices are a lot like gas prices. When the price goes up, they claim reasons for it, like the worldwide metal markets. There's some truth to that. But when the metal market goes down, like it always does, I'm afraid we won't see the price of ammo follow the material cost down. I think the price we see now is the cheapest we are ever going to see again.

williejc
11-15-07, 22:05
I suggest that you buy Dillon dies if you use a Dillon press. Set-up and adjustment procedures will be less complicated, altho theoretically you can use any standard die set. Why not purchase one of their package deals? Call and talk to them on their dime; they are friendly and helpful. With any progressive reloader, life is simpler if you use ball powders. The individual grains are round and flow smoothly through powder measures. Not going crazy setting up the powder measure is another reason to use Dillon dies.

Reloading is fun. For 25 years, I used a single station press and performed each procedure one per time for each round loaded. The fact that my right shoulder is severely arthritic is not related to pulling my handle(press)2million times. Too bad we don't live near Rob. We could shoot his ready-rolls.

Williejc:D

Hawgleg44
11-15-07, 22:24
I use Dillon dies in .30 Carbine and .308. RCBS in .223 and .30-30 and Lee in .40 S&W. Die setup isn't any more difficult with any brand, and they all produce quality ammo.

Just my experience, though.

rob_s
11-16-07, 14:59
For those interested, Sportsman's Guide has the 62 grain for $220/1k (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=282659).

hal_5555
11-17-07, 20:59
i just got some from Cabelas for fairly cheap. it also came with two dry boxes, (1000)

55gr- $194
62gr-$209

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat20839_TGP&rid=&indexId=cat20839&navAction=push&masterpathid=&navCount=1&parentType=index&parentId=cat20839&id=0022898

rob_s
11-17-07, 21:17
i just got some from Cabelas for fairly cheap. it also came with two dry boxes, (1000)

55gr- $194
62gr-$209

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat20839_TGP&rid=&indexId=cat20839&navAction=push&masterpathid=&navCount=1&parentType=index&parentId=cat20839&id=0022898

I was initially going to order from them, but everything now shows backorder.

hal_5555
11-17-07, 22:57
I was initially going to order from them, but everything now shows backorder.

roger. i went to the store and got it. if you are lucky to be near a store they have great in store sales sometimes on ammo. like 1000 for $192 but you get another 500 free! great shit there.

Shihan
11-18-07, 02:55
Is it loose in the dry boxes or in the boxes still?

Submariner
11-18-07, 17:46
Sniiped from TOS:

Wolf doesn't group, it patterns.:D

Submariner
11-19-07, 07:03
I prefer to think of myself as a fascist-anarchist actually.:cool:

No, you are schizophrenic. On a spectrum of total .gov (totalitarianism) on the left to no l.gov (anarchy) on the right, fascism is on the left and anarchist is on the right. Can't be both at once without being schizo.:rolleyes:

rob_s
11-19-07, 08:33
No, you are schizophrenic. On a spectrum of total .gov (totalitarianism) on the left to no l.gov (anarchy) on the right, fascism is on the left and anarchist is on the right. Can't be both at once without being schizo.:rolleyes:

It's a line from Ferris Bueller

The whole quote is


I do actually have a test. That wasn't bullshit.
That I care about it was...

It's on European socialism. I mean, really. What's the point? I'm not European. I don't plan to be European. So, who gives a shit if they're socialists? They could be fascist anarchists and it still wouldn't change the fact that I don't own a car...

Not that I condone fascism. Or any "isms". "Isms", in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an "ism". He should believe in himself. John Lennon said it on his first solo album. "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." A good point there. After all, he was the Walrus...**

Gunfixr
11-23-07, 00:50
That's ok. For all those who won't shoot Wolf, that means more for me. My Frankengun eats it up without a hitch, and it doesn't even have a chromelined bore. It even eats up the older lacquer coated stuff. I don't clean it, either. I just add some lube here and there and it just keeps on shootin'. It'll even make almost touching groups at 50 yds out of my 16 inch skinny Oly stainless bbl using my Tripower and my less than stellar shooting ability.
I am fixing to get a Dillon, though. I got a Lee Turret press I been using for 21 years, but I want something faster for 5.56, 7.62x51, and .45 acp. I got the .45 and 7.62 dies, so I'm gonna get the Dillon in 5.56, and just get the rest of the changeover stuff for the other calibers.

Joe Mamma
11-23-07, 11:26
Do you guys have a preference or any thoughts on 55gr Wolf versus 62gr Wolf? Has anyone tested them compared to each other? Is one more reliable, accurate, etc.?

Thanks.

Joe Mamma

Hawgleg44
11-23-07, 18:05
I've shot both the 55 and 62gr Wolf and they are both reliable. I only buy the 55gr now, since two of my AR's are 1:12 twist, one SP-1 Rifle and one SP-1 Carbine. And, it's still accurate enough for hitting 12" steel plates out to 200 yards in my 1:7 twist AR's, too.

RogerinTPA
11-24-07, 08:49
Do you guys have a preference or any thoughts on 55gr Wolf versus 62gr Wolf? Has anyone tested them compared to each other? Is one more reliable, accurate, etc.?

Thanks.

Joe Mamma

I got fairly good accuracy out of the 55 grains, 2 1/2 and 3 inch groups at 100 yards with bipod and eotech, using my Colt 6920 & SDI middy upper/colt lower hybrid (both 16" barrels & 1/7 twist), but the 62 grains seems a bit more accurate and consistent and had really good results with the 62 grain hollow points. 2 inch groups being the average and a few 1 1/2 groups when I do my part. Same results with barnaul 62 grain. I'll bring my camera to compare the groups next time. These are not "Camp Perry match grade accuracy" results, but the accuracy was surprisingly better than Fed m193, Q3131 or Privi m193 I have fired in the past IMHO. YMMV.

R1pper
12-06-07, 05:41
I think it's much more likely that you'll see the price of Wolf continue to rise up to, or close to the price of brass cased ammo (hell, it's close to that now) than seeing the price of brass cased ammo drop.

Unfortunately, ammo prices are a lot like gas prices.




I just bought a spare case of 500rnd 55gr, and they went up $25 per 500. In Oct. I paid $125 for 500 rnds of 55gr

Hawgleg44
12-06-07, 19:16
Wolf does continue to rise, and I just can't see it. At the price you stated, plus $20, it's very close to the price of the S&B .223 I bought at the last MG Shoot. At that point, I'll just buy the brass cased .223 and keep on piling up reloadable brass. I have three 5 gallon buckets full of once fired brass cased .223 as it is. I have some bullets to reload it with, but I need to get some bulk pulled bullets now. I have about 20 pounds of 2230 powder and 40,000 small rifle primers just waiting to be used!

I can somewhat see the higher cost of the 7.62x39 Wolf due to its use in Iraq and not being able to keep up with demand for the American consumer, but the .223? It's total BS. They see that they can make money, and that's exactly what they are doing.

I'll burn up a case or so of Wolf per year at the MG Shoot until it's gone. Or, if I'm shooting while standing in snow or at a shoot where I can't police up my brass, but any training class where I can keep my brass or any range time other than that, I'll use my reloads. Although I've never had a problem with reloads before, I'll stick to factory ammo when shooting my friends' MG's. All it would take is one stupid mistake and I KB a $15k M16. I'm very confident it would never happen, but out of respect for their weapons, I'll stick to factory ammo.

Dick, I see you are in MA. E. Mass or W. Mass? I'm way out west and like it that way. It's almost like Boston doesn't even exist out here, until we have to deal with the laws those a**holes pass!

R1pper
12-06-07, 19:32
Im in western Ma. How else do you think I got my Class A ALP. Just think Six Flags and you know the town im in.

SinnFéinM1911
12-07-07, 10:46
I would not use WOLF in anything !

(WEstern MAss Native here too ! (Chicopee and Belchertown area)

markm
12-07-07, 10:57
I would not use WOLF in anything !


But it runs AS GOOD AS real ammo! ;)

As good As.... where have I heard that before??? :confused:

Hawgleg44
12-08-07, 11:02
But it runs AS GOOD AS real ammo! ;)

As good As.... where have I heard that before??? :confused:

I still love the way you are an expert on Wolf ammo, or ammo iteslf for that matter, after shooting a whole 20 rounds of it!

Hmm....."as good as".........As in: Someone's opinion who has fired only 20 rounds of an ammo is as good as someone who has fired a quantity of it. I'm sorry for your rifle that was destroyed by firing this sub-standard ammo.

Oh, since the price of Wolf has risen to close to that of S&B, I stopped shooting it, too, but it has nothing to do with the quality of Wolf. It has to do with reloadable brass.



I'm a little north of UMass, Amherst, here.

R1pper
12-09-07, 18:12
=Hawgleg44;102100 I'm a little north of UMass, Amherst, here.

Im actually taking the Amherst PD test next month



=Hawgleg44;102100 I still love the way you are an expert on Wolf ammo, or ammo iteslf for that matter, after shooting a whole 20 rounds of it!


+1 Im up to about 1900 rnds of wolf through my weapon and about 500 of mixed brand brass and have no problems with either. The only problem is one I mentioned earlier in the thread.

markm
12-10-07, 08:20
I still love the way you are an expert on Wolf ammo, or ammo iteslf for that matter, after shooting a whole 20 rounds of it!

Hmm....."as good as".........As in: Someone's opinion who has fired only 20 rounds of an ammo is as good as someone who has fired a quantity of it. I'm sorry for your rifle that was destroyed by firing this sub-standard ammo.

Oh, since the price of Wolf has risen to close to that of S&B, I stopped shooting it, too, but it has nothing to do with the quality of Wolf. It has to do with reloadable brass.


Don't be a douche.

I never claimed to be an expert on wolf ammo. I never drove a Yugo in the 80s either, so I suppose I can't say that car was a piece of shit... using your bullet proof logic!:p

I run across this syndrome with the Olympic Arms owners ALL THE TIME. They buy a sub standard weapon and get locked in to an emotional defense of the product.

If you want to cut corners on ammo... fine. But don't get pissy at those of us who chose not to. Like they say... it leaves more of it for you to shoot.:cool:

Hawgleg44
12-10-07, 08:31
Don't be a douche.

I never claimed to be an expert on wolf ammo. I never drove a Yugo in the 80s either, so I suppose I can't say that car was a piece of shit... using your bullet proof logic!:p

I run across this syndrome with the Olympic Arms owners ALL THE TIME. They buy a sub standard weapon and get locked in to an emotional defense of the product.

If you want to cut corners on ammo... fine. But don't get pissy at those of us who chose not to. Like they say... it leaves more of it for you to shoot.:cool:

Don't be a dick.

You never said that you were an expert, but by the way you talk shit about Wolf all the time, after firing a whole 20 rounds of it, you are acting like an expert.

Why would you have to have owned a Yugo in the 80's to know they were pieces of crap? It's well documented that they were, unlike all the problems with Wolf ammo that you had with the 20 rounds you fired.

But, anyone who actually brags about being banned on other sites in their signature definately has issues with being immature and being too interested in starting flame wars on boards. I have better things to do.

STARTING NOW, THIS IS THE LAST POST I WILL MAKE IN THIS THREAD. SO, GO AHEAD "DEMIGOD" :rolleyes: FLAME AWAY. YOU'LL BE DOING SO TOWARD SOMEONE WHO IS NOT EVEN SUBSCRIBED TO THIS THREAD ANYMORE.

Dick.