Any advantages to a heavier non-captioned recoil spring in a Gen3 G19?

[Magic_Salad0892]

Thinking of throwing it on a G19 to see if it'd help with follow up shots, or spring life.

I've heard Grant say he uses ISMI recoil assemblies, because of failures of the polymer unit (which I've never seen, btw).

I know this is a bucket of worms, but hopefully I can wade through the bullshit, and get some great info.

Will a steel rod beat up the plastic frame?...

If I did it I'd go with a stainless recoil rod, and a Sprinco spring.

Recommended spring weights?...

[spr1]

Glock did change the recoil spring guide rod material to a tougher composition a few years back. The part number is the same with the addition of a -1, IIRC. The older rods were more brittle and did fail on occasion.
Spring weights get more critical on lighter slides and your window of uber-reliable function may narrow.

[Crow Hunter]

I have seen tests where Glocks were fired until the guide rod melted and squirted out of frame. I have never heard of a guide rod failing and locking up a gun.

I don't see how a failed guide rod would prevent the gun from operating unless it shattered and little pieces got between the coils of the spring to the point that it prevented the spring from compressing during recoil.

I don't know that is a failure that I would worry about versus the increase weight and annoyance of dealing with a non captured guide rod.

Somone else my chime in and have some examples of why I am wrong.:D

As to beating up the gun, I don't see how it would. Assembled correctly it nestles in the notch on the barrel and slide, I don't think it would touch the frame.

[EzGoingKev]

Glock has their magazine they put out.

A few years ago they had a write up on of their factory competition shooters pistols and he was running a Tungsten guide rod to help keep muzzle flip down.

I do not know if it works or not but that is what they said.

I myself like the captured spring units as they would make things quicker and easier to re-assemble if you had to do it in a stressful situation. They do make heavier guide rods that are captured.

[mkmckinley]

I tried a stainless guide rod on a Glock 23 I had with no issues in about 600 rounds. I also didn't notice much of an effect on muzzle flip but I wasn't a very experienced shooter. I sold that gun years ago along with the guide rod. I know that's not a ton of testing, but I don't see how something like the ISMI guide rod and spring could cause any permanent problems assuming the spring rate is correct and the materials are good quality. I've used ISMI springs in a number of different pistols and magazines and never had a problem with their quality. The Glock recoil spring is flat just like the factory one. The guide rod shouldn't be able to damage the frame regardless of material. Correct me if I'm wrong but the rearward movement of the slide is stopped but the slide stop, which itself is steel. The forces should be basically the same regardless of what the guide rod is made of. I've never seen a guide rod fail but apparently it happens. It's only $20, try one out and tell us how you like it.

[uwe1]

I only have firsthand experience with the Glockmeister units. I have the SS captured units with 15# ISMI springs. According to Glockmeister, the stock springs are 17# for a G17. I haven't had any issues with either one. One gun has around 5K rounds through it, including 2 multi-day classes without any issues. I've probably had 2-3 stovepipes with it running steel cased ammo during rapid fire so I think it could have been a shooter induced malfuction. The other gun has 1K rounds and no malfunctions.

Back in 2009, when I first began shooting, and researching Glock mods, I came across an article where a guy tried multiple spring weights to determine which was allowing for faster followup shots.

IIRC, the lower weights cause the recoil to be more snappy (faster slide speed), but less muzzle flip. The higher weights reduced the snappiness, but caused the muzzle to lift more.

I don't notice a difference with the 15# ISMI versus the stock RSA.

[fixit69]

Tried my stock 22 and my friends with guide rod and steel spring. No noticeable difference. But try it. There are lots of things I try, notice difference, but everyone else says waste of time and money. Also works the other way around.

[Magic_Salad0892]

IIRC, the lower weights cause the recoil to be more snappy (faster slide speed), but less muzzle flip. The higher weights reduced the snappiness, but caused the muzzle to lift more.

I don't notice a difference with the 15# ISMI versus the stock RSA.

Why is that?... I thought it would be the other way around.

My Gen4 G19 recoils less than my Gen3 gun, and it has a higher spring weight, I'm 99% sure.

[brushy bill]

Will a steel rod beat up the plastic frame?...


I've wondered about this too. I can't see how this would be the case as an M&Ps come with the steel guide rod, but you know what they say about assumptions...waiting to see if anyone has extensive rounds down range experience with one in a Glock.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I've wondered about this too. I can't see how this would be the case as an M&Ps come with the steel guide rod, but you know what they say about assumptions...waiting to see if anyone has extensive rounds down range experience with one in a Glock.

I can conclude that it does not, because the recoil assembly doesn't touch the frame.

I'm stupid, and should have remembered that. However, it could be debatable as to weather or not the rod itself will have a longer service life than the polymer unit.

[Crow Hunter]

I can conclude that it does not, because the recoil assembly doesn't touch the frame.

I'm stupid, and should have remembered that. However, it could be debatable as to weather or not the rod itself will have a longer service life than the polymer unit.

You will probably have to change out the OEM unit because the spring reaching the end of it's service life before the rod makes it there.

From my limited experience.

[uwe1]

Why is that?... I thought it would be the other way around.

My Gen4 G19 recoils less than my Gen3 gun, and it has a higher spring weight, I'm 99% sure.

I am going to preface this by saying that I'm no expert, so if I am not making sense, someone correct me.

I believe it's because the recoil cycle using the lower spring weight is faster and the force exerted on the gun doesn't last as long. You get a shorter duration, but much sharper rearward impulse. The frame probably gets battered a bit more.

With a stiffer spring, the recoil cycle slows, and the slide will push harder against the frame (more pounds of tension on the spring), and this will increase the force generating muzzle flip. However, the recoil won't feel as sharp as the heavier weight spring is storing more of the energy. The slide will also move forward with more force as it goes back into battery.

EDIT: I did a search and I think this is one of the websites that explained the concept. There were several different modifications and I don't necessarily advocate doing any of these things to your gun, especially if it's a carry gun, but having the knowledge is useful. I'm one of those people that like to know because I want more complete understanding. The author of the article obviously had some questionable viewpoints as to what a perfect gun might be and many of the weird things he documented will undoubtedly affect reliability.

Bullet point #6 on changing the recoil spring explains it.

http://www.uckfup.dk/content/view/13/14/

[Magic_Salad0892]

You will probably have to change out the OEM unit because the spring reaching the end of it's service life before the rod makes it there.

From my limited experience.

I meant if a steel rod would have more life than the poly unit.

Uwe, thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. I'll stick with higher spring weights.

[BufordTJustice]

I will respectfully differ. I have used up-rated recoil springs (ISMI 20 and 22lb on my G21 using stock plastic GR) and 20lb Wolff recoil spring set and steel wolff guide rod set on my gen4 G26.

In both cases, I have experienced a drastic reduction in both felt recoil and muzzle rise using speer +P lawman ammo (124gr +P 9mm and 200gr +P in .45).

I find that if you are one of those people who grips your gun tight enough to really minimize the movement of the gun in your hands (aka 'squirm'), the stronger recoil springs will be of most benefit to you. I have grip tape on my gen3 G21 and the std texture of the gen4 grip on my G26 both help me to grip the gun very positively.

Further, I find that, if the gun does not move in your hand, the stronger recoil springs will drive the slide back into battery a LOT harder than the std springs....I think this is what forces the muzzle back down more than the stock springs, on top of reducing rearward slide velocity. AND it's easier on the frame of the gun (though with Glocks the frames seem to be pretty friggin rock-solid regardless). Both my guns shoot much softer to me and my squad-mates who train regularly...but we all grip our guns firmly and are pretty good at minimizing movement.

I MUCH prefer the stronger recoil springs for the above reasons...and for the reason that the only malfs I experience on my G21 are when I'm ~350 rounds deep into a training day and the gun is dry...I'll always have some failure-to-return-to-battery issues later in the string. With the stronger springs, these issues disappear, yet the guns still lock back on empty. No downside for me so far. :D

[mizer67]

Lighter springs track flatter, at the expense of slightly more recoil straight rearward, but transmitted in a quicker manner which feels less to me.

Contrary to the poster above me, my experience is that you are not fighting the spring as much with lighter springs. Heavier springs make the muzzle dip more following recoil as the slide slams back into battery when running fast splits, and you have to muscle the gun back into position or will throw shots.

That being said, if a heavier spring works for you, rock on.

What you or I feel and experience vs. others may be different.

[Rock]

Lighter springs track flatter, at the expense of slightly more recoil straight rearward, but transmitted in a quicker manner which feels less to me.

Contrary to the poster above me, my experience is that you are not fighting the spring as much with lighter springs. Heavier springs make the muzzle dip more following recoil as the slide slams back into battery when running fast splits, and you have to muscle the gun back into position or will throw shots.



Which is why competitive shooters use lighter springs.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Which is why competitive shooters use lighter springs.

And lighter loads...

[Crow Hunter]

I meant if a steel rod would have more life than the poly unit.


I know.:D

I was referring to the fact that the OEM plastic one is captured. You will wear out the spring before you wear out the rod.

When you change the spring, you change the rod with it.;)

Hence, never reaching the service life of the rod.

Kinda like "How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop".:p

[BufordTJustice]

And lighter loads...

MUCH lighter loads. Had a buddy who has a full race gun in .45... the loads he uses for that (he rolls his own) won't even CYCLE my G21 using a stock RSA.

I want springs that run when my gun is dirty/rained-on/sweated-on/bloody/muddy/fouled/hot/freezing/wet/dry. Lighter springs are not guaranteed to do that. Using real loads (my agency uses Speer 200gr +P lawman/GDHP), a heavier spring significantly reduces recoil for me in my world. My splits were significantly reduced using a 22lb spring in my G21 over the stock 17lb spring. Same with my buddies (some of whom were tested blind and did not know the gun had been altered).

Obviously, other users here have had different experiences using different setups...and I don't doubt the validity of their experiences. But for me, using this gun and this ammo, the improvement is concrete.

[ck1]

This has been figured out long ago by high-volume competition shooters: lighter springs cycle faster so they shoot flatter, recoil softer, are less prone to limp-wrist malfunctions, and will eject brass more efficiently, heavier springs will last longer and increase feeding reliability with really dirty guns/chambers, but will have more felt recoil, be more likely to malf do to a poor grip (limp-wrist malfs), and have more muzzle rise... decide what you're after and do some testing, remembering that different guns/designs will allow more variance than others without losing reliability than others.

Most new guns are slightly over-sprung from the factory for recoil-assembly longevity and tolerance to users feeding them crap ammo and or neglecting to clean them properly, slightly detuned from their full potential in favor of being less likely to make trips back to the factory, for a company trying to move units, money-wise this makes sense.

Glock's in 9mm can be sprung a couple pounds lighter without any drop-off in reliability, if anything they just run better... assuming one cleans 'em every 1000-1500rds or so a 15lb ISMI spring on a stock Glock polymer guide rod in either a G17 or G19 is good for 5000rds or more shooting both lower-pf target FMJ and +P stuff and will be just as reliable as stock, just run better, shoot flatter, and shoot softer.

Hear me now, believe me later... but read this first: http://www.custom-glock.com/springtech.html

As for what the rod is made of, it's a wash, engineers I've talked to have said that if anything the polymer is maybe better as it'll flex with the frame, the guide rod merely keeps the spring in the right spot, it doesn't have to do a whole lot more than just sit there and help to keep the spring where it's supposed to be.

[BufordTJustice]

This has been figured out long ago by high-volume competition shooters: lighter springs cycle faster so they shoot flatter, recoil softer, are less prone to limp-wrist malfunctions, and will eject brass more efficiently, heavier springs will last longer and increase feeding reliability with really dirty guns/chambers, but will have more felt recoil, be more likely to malf do to a poor grip (limp-wrist malfs), and have more muzzle rise... decide what you're after and do some testing, remembering that different guns/designs will allow more variance than others without losing reliability than others.

Most new guns are slightly over-sprung from the factory for recoil-assembly longevity and tolerance to users feeding them crap ammo and or neglecting to clean them properly, slightly detuned from their full potential in favor of being less likely to make trips back to the factory, for a company trying to move units, money-wise this makes sense.

Glock's in 9mm can be sprung a couple pounds lighter without any drop-off in reliability, if anything they just run better... assuming one cleans 'em every 1000-1500rds or so a 15lb ISMI spring on a stock Glock polymer guide rod in either a G17 or G19 is good for 5000rds or more shooting both lower-pf target FMJ and +P stuff and will be just as reliable as stock, just run better, shoot flatter, and shoot softer.

Hear me now, believe me later... but read this first: http://www.custom-glock.com/springtech.html

As for what the rod is made of, it's a wash, engineers I've talked to have said that if anything the polymer is maybe better as it'll flex with the frame, the guide rod merely keeps the spring in the right spot, it doesn't have to do a whole lot more than just sit there and help to keep the spring where it's supposed to be.

I read the link.

"The shooter does more work, as there is more force to counteract. This often causes and [sic] increase in muzzle flip."

Doesn't that go against the laws of physics for conservation of energy? Doesn't it also go against the vast amount of research that has gone into virtually every recoil reduction product on the market (SIMS Vibration Labs, PWS, Battle Comp Ind., Past, Ops Inc., Enidine, Vltor's A5 system, et al.)?

I also recommend that you speak to a company who actually manufactures springs (Wolff Gunsprings). I've spoken to them numerous times and their findings have been the exact opposite of what you're espousing.

I disagree with almost half of the information provided in your link and basically everything you stated about spring weights.

Have you shot a G23 in .40 with underpowered recoil springs....or even worn stock springs (and watched the slide constantly outrun the mag spring causing malfs)?

Do you know what happens when you slap a TLR1/X300 on a gen3 G22/23? They malf so often due to the round stack in the magazine not keeping up with the slide velocity, that my agency has forbidden the use of weapon lights on them...but it's okay for use on G21s and G17s. But, like magic, when you add an increased power recoil spring (and an increased power magazine spring), you can run the G22/23's all day long with a light...even shooting weak-hand with sweaty palms.

The OP is asking about a G19. You are recommending that the OP use a reduced power recoil spring, which will INCREASE slide velocity....and could easily turn his defensive handgun into a worthless malf-ing POS. Are you aware of the consequences of the advice that you are providing? This is serious stuff and you are making recommendations that are known to cause more malfunctions (and increase perceived recoil) using full power loads.

The LAST thing you need to do to a defensive handgun is to increase slide velocity. Seeing as how we still all live by the laws of physics, the only way to moderate and control slide velocity is either by mass or resistance. The mass is a finite (and un-alterable) amount...so increasing or decreasing spring pressure is the only way to manipulate SV. Reducing spring pressure will necessarily increase slide velocity.

If running a weaker RSA is so awesome, I wonder why Glock's agency armorer course strictly mandates the replacement of the RSA's for all calibers at a maximum of 5,000 rounds? If weaker springs were better, why not just keep running the weakened RSA's, advertising that they "get better with age"?

I'm not buying what you're selling, and I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I haven't spoken to an engineer yet (either at Wolff or Springco) who agrees with your findings on this subject. I've said my piece on the subject.

[mizer67]

MUCH lighter loads. Had a buddy who has a full race gun in .45... the loads he uses for that (he rolls his own) won't even CYCLE my G21 using a stock RSA.

Competitive shooters in 9mm aren't necessarily using "much lighter loads". In 9mm, to make power factor for the most common gun games like USPSA and IDPA you have to make minor, which is 125 pf.

That means a 124 grain bullet must be travelling at >1,008 fps to make minor power factor.

Most shooters, due to variability the velocity in any ammo, will give themselves some buffer above the power factor floor, and shoot 130 to 135 pf in 9mm. That equates to a velocity of between 1,048 fps and 1,088 fps. To make that velocity with most powders, you're near the max charge weight and pressure levels.

Factory 124 gr standard pressure target 9mm ammo is typically running around 1,040 fps 10 ft from the muzzle, 69 ft. above sea level at ~90 degrees, IME.

What works well in .45 ACP (or .40 S&W) may not work equally as well as in 9mm (and vice versa). The OP was asking about a G19, which can typically be resprung.

[ck1]

The laws of Physics are laws, not opinions, whether one chooses to ignore them or not is up to themselves.

Lighter shoots softer, it's physics.

[uwe1]

I read the link.

"The shooter does more work, as there is more force to counteract. This often causes and [sic] increase in muzzle flip."

Doesn't that go against the laws of physics for conservation of energy? Doesn't it also go against the vast amount of research that has gone into virtually every recoil reduction product on the market (SIMS Vibration Labs, PWS, Battle Comp Ind., Past, Ops Inc., Enidine, Vltor's A5 system, et al.)?

I also recommend that you speak to a company who actually manufactures springs (Wolff Gunsprings). I've spoken to them numerous times and their findings have been the exact opposite of what you're espousing.

I disagree with almost half of the information provided in your link and basically everything you stated about spring weights.

Have you shot a G23 in .40 with underpowered recoil springs....or even worn stock springs (and watched the slide constantly outrun the mag spring causing malfs)?

Do you know what happens when you slap a TLR1/X300 on a gen3 G22/23? They malf so often due to the round stack in the magazine not keeping up with the slide velocity, that my agency has forbidden the use of weapon lights on them...but it's okay for use on G21s and G17s. But, like magic, when you add an increased power recoil spring (and an increased power magazine spring), you can run the G22/23's all day long with a light...even shooting weak-hand with sweaty palms.

The OP is asking about a G19. You are recommending that the OP use a reduced power recoil spring, which will INCREASE slide velocity....and could easily turn his defensive handgun into a worthless malf-ing POS. Are you aware of the consequences of the advice that you are providing? This is serious stuff and you are making recommendations that are known to cause more malfunctions (and increase perceived recoil) using full power loads.

The LAST thing you need to do to a defensive handgun is to increase slide velocity. Seeing as how we still all live by the laws of physics, the only way to moderate and control slide velocity is either by mass or resistance. The mass is a finite (and un-alterable) amount...so increasing or decreasing spring pressure is the only way to manipulate SV. Reducing spring pressure will necessarily increase slide velocity.

If running a weaker RSA is so awesome, I wonder why Glock's agency armorer course strictly mandates the replacement of the RSA's for all calibers at a maximum of 5,000 rounds? If weaker springs were better, why not just keep running the weakened RSA's, advertising that they "get better with age"?

I'm not buying what you're selling, and I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I haven't spoken to an engineer yet (either at Wolff or Springco) who agrees with your findings on this subject. I've said my piece on the subject.


I think that we are all confusing felt recoil versus actual recoil and muzzle flip.

A lower spring weight will increase slide velocity and the felt recoil will be sharper, but straight back.

The heavier spring will store more energy. However, that spring is ultimately pushing against the shooter which makes the shooter work harder to control the squirm. The grip acts like a fulcrum (not sure if this is the correct term), so there will be a longer harder push against the shooter which will increase muzzle flip, especially if the shooter doesn't have an iron grip.

It also isn't fair to argue long gun recoil characteristics with pistols. You mentioned a number of muzzle devices that don't exactly act like springs. The Enidine has "hydraulic" properties and the Vltor A5 increases the mass of the buffer to absorb recoil while increasing the power of the spring to compensate for the heavier buffer.

Trying to make sure we're discussing apples to apples here...(Sorry for bad grammar issues, typing from my phone)

[BufordTJustice]

I think that we are all confusing felt recoil versus actual recoil and muzzle flip.

A lower spring weight will increase slide velocity and the felt recoil will be sharper, but straight back.

The heavier spring will store more energy. However, that spring is ultimately pushing against the shooter which makes the shooter work harder to control the squirm. The grip acts like a fulcrum (not sure if this is the correct term), so there will be a longer harder push against the shooter which will increase muzzle flip, especially if the shooter doesn't have an iron grip.

It also isn't fair to argue long gun recoil characteristics with pistols. You mentioned a number of muzzle devices that don't exactly act like springs. The Enidine has "hydraulic" properties and the Vltor A5 increases the mass of the buffer to absorb recoil while increasing the power of the spring to compensate for the heavier buffer.

Trying to make sure we're discussing apples to apples here...(Sorry for bad grammar issues, typing from my phone)

I understand what you are trying to say, but so far you and everybody else only talk about HALF the physics involved. Yes, a stronger spring can cause the frame to rotate slightly more in the shooter's hand on the recoil stroke, but that SAME 'stored energy' that you mention also gets released BACK into the slide as it gets forced into battery harder than with the weaker spring. This pushes the muzzle back down harder (and faster) than with a weaker spring.

My point is that all of the modern recoil reduction devices center around lengthening the amount of time that a force, X, gets applied to the shooter. Increasing this duration reduces perceived recoil. SIMS has some great graphs that illustrate this principle. The A5 works in the same way, slowing the impact of the BCG on the rear of the receiver extension...causing it to shoot much softer than most carbine setups.

And, conversely, if a stronger recoil spring can store more energy on the recoil stroke, then it can also dispense more energy on the return to battery. If a weaker spring stores less energy (and it does), then your hands must absorb more net energy with a weaker spring than a stronger spring.

Lastly, you don't need an 'iron grip'...but if you're not using a combat grip, then I guess you're just exclusively comp oriented. And that's fine, but if you're training with any expectation of defensive use, you need to be gripping your gun HARD. I'll define this, as do Travis Haley, Chris Costa, & Bruce Gray define it (among others) as a grip that is firm and just shy of the point of inducing tremors. If the gun is moving in your hands, you're doing it wrong and something needs to change. Maybe you need to modify the gun or your grip or both. I have TalonGrip tape on my G21 because without it, my hands shift slightly when sweaty or dirty. The gun should not move in your hands. If you have to adjust your firing grip between shots, regardless of what gun or recoil spring you're using, then the root issue is the gun shifting in your hands, NOT the weight of the recoil spring. If somebody has to use a lighter weight recoil spring in order to have the gun not squirm in their hands, that's a training issue. If anybody wonders about that, ask TG, TH, CC, BG, or anybody else on this board who has been-there-and-done-that about it (no sarcasm...shoot them an email, they'll answer) and they can provide some good advice to get your grip and the gun where they need to be to stop the movement between shots. TH sums it up well here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9uG5bPubw

[uwe1]

I understand what you are trying to say, but so far you and everybody else only talk about HALF the physics involved. Yes, a stronger spring can cause the frame to rotate slightly more in the shooter's hand on the recoil stroke, but that SAME 'stored energy' that you mention also gets released BACK into the slide as it gets forced into battery harder than with the weaker spring. This pushes the muzzle back down harder (and faster) than with a weaker spring.

Some people experience muzzle dip with the stronger springs as the slide is forced into battery harder....


My point is that all of the modern recoil reduction devices center around lengthening the amount of time that a force, X, gets applied to the shooter. Increasing this duration reduces perceived recoil. SIMS has some great graphs that illustrate this principle. The A5 works in the same way, slowing the impact of the BCG on the rear of the receiver extension...causing it to shoot much softer than most carbine setups.

And, conversely, if a stronger recoil spring can store more energy on the recoil stroke, then it can also dispense more energy on the return to battery. If a weaker spring stores less energy (and it does), then your hands must absorb more net energy with a weaker spring than a stronger spring.

Lastly, you don't need an 'iron grip'...but if you're not using a combat grip, then I guess you're just exclusively comp oriented. And that's fine, but if you're training with any expectation of defensive use, you need to be gripping your gun HARD. I'll define this, as do Travis Haley, Chris Costa, & Bruce Gray define it (among others) as a grip that is firm and just shy of the point of inducing tremors. If the gun is moving in your hands, you're doing it wrong and something needs to change. Maybe you need to modify the gun or your grip or both. I have TalonGrip tape on my G21 because without it, my hands shift slightly when sweaty or dirty. The gun should not move in your hands. If you have to adjust your firing grip between shots, regardless of what gun or recoil spring you're using, then the root issue is the gun shifting in your hands, NOT the weight of the recoil spring. If somebody has to use a lighter weight recoil spring in order to have the gun not squirm in their hands, that's a training issue. If anybody wonders about that, ask TG, TH, CC, BG, or anybody else on this board who has been-there-and-done-that about it (no sarcasm...shoot them an email, they'll answer) and they can provide some good advice to get your grip and the gun where they need to be to stop the movement between shots. TH sums it up well here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9uG5bPubw

I am not disputing what you're saying at all and am only interested in learning the concepts. Both you and ck1 made very valid points.

I won't be modifying my Glocks to run on super light springs. To be honest, I don't see a big difference in the way my guns run on stock plastic recoil spring assemblies versus ISMI spring/SS guide rod setups.

My grip is fairly tight and is almost at the point of inducing tremors, but I'm not a big guy, white collar worker here, and it's taken me some time to build up grip strength. Thanks for putting forth the other side of the picture though.

[BufordTJustice]

Some people experience muzzle dip with the stronger springs as the slide is forced into battery harder....



I am not disputing what you're saying at all and am only interested in learning the concepts. Both you and ck1 made very valid points.

I won't be modifying my Glocks to run on super light springs. To be honest, I don't see a big difference in the way my guns run on stock plastic recoil spring assemblies versus ISMI spring/SS guide rod setups.

My grip is fairly tight and is almost at the point of inducing tremors, but I'm not a big guy, white collar worker here, and it's taken me some time to build up grip strength. Thanks for putting forth the other side of the picture though.

Np.

I'm a 235lb weight-lifting, broad-shouldered cop, and I still use a little stress ball (rubber around rice or sand....got it at sport's authority) while I'm on patrol. I use it constantly while I'm in my car. Hand strength is something that all shooters need to constantly work on (me included). That and dry fire practice. TONS of dry fire practice.

[uwe1]

The laws of Physics are laws, not opinions, whether one chooses to ignore them or not is up to themselves.

Lighter shoots softer, it's physics.

I don't think that's completely accurate. The slide moves faster, more recoil is absorbed by the shooter (instead of the spring and by extension, the frame of the gun), and the sights may track flatter (less muzzle flip), but it doesn't shoot "softer". I suppose it can be 'perceived' to feel that way...

[Magic_Salad0892]

Comp shooters get less recoil because they shoot rediculously light loads, and need light springs to compensate for it.

I'm hearing that a heavier recoil spring will be better for me then.

Does anybody know how heavy the standard Gen3 recoil spring is?

Also, what is the Gen4 weight? I'm going back to Glockmeister single captioned springs in those guns.

[ck1]

Some of you guys are missing it, while it certainly seems counter-intuative for a lighter spring to shoot softer and have less felt recoil, the concept is actually fairly straightforward and there are many examples of where counter-intuative physics are working all around you if you really think about it...

For just one example: the same concept is at work in the use of crumple-zones in modern automobiles, at first thought one might think "you're doing what? you're using bumpers that squash easily on purpose..?" but the thing is the goal is to dissipate energy not transmit or store the energy, so for the safety of the passengers energy-absorbing bumpers and crumple-zones work far better (the passengers in the event of an accident/crash experience less felt-recoil) than the older rigid bumper-designs, which is totally counter-intuative to a "stronger is always better" mantra.

Again, the concept is all about dissipating and bleeding off the recoil energy in the fastest most efficient manner, NOT holding onto it and transferring the recoil-impulse to the shooter.

Think Sports Car suspension vs. Grandma's Buick: softer suspension absorbs and dissipates the bumps and road irregularities delivering the "rolling couch" impression, with sports cars the same stiffer suspension that lets them handle like they're on rails also means it transmits more bumps and road vibes.

This stuff isn't just for competition guys who are shooting soft, low-pf "bunny fart" loads either... at least understanding the concept is a good idea as in some guns changing spring weights even a couple pounds up or down can totally cure small issues they've been having (especially in 1911's), but also, more importantly, it may keep one from getting killed when one day a buddy comes along who doesn't understand the concept fully and recommends that they go up to a stronger spring than they really need with the promise of less felt-recoil, less muzzle-rise, and pretty much all the things that actually going lighter deliver... only to leave them with a weapon that has become more picky to grip and stance inputs, more likely to jam, and that locks up into battery so overly tight that if wounded or injured one-handed operation of the gun such as one-handed loading and firing are twice as difficult as they need to be.

[uwe1]

Comp shooters get less recoil because they shoot rediculously light loads, and need light springs to compensate for it.

I'm hearing that a heavier recoil spring will be better for me then.

Does anybody know how heavy the standard Gen3 recoil spring is?

Also, what is the Gen4 weight? I'm going back to Glockmeister single captioned springs in those guns.

I wouldn't go any heavier than the stock weight unless you are built like a 235# bodybuilding cop, frequently training with +P loads, like Buford.

There is ample evidence that the stock configuration works perfectly with +P loads.

The SS guide rod/ISMI 15# spring setups I currently use are from when I was a newbie. They have been completely reliable for me and I have switched back to the stock polymer RSAs for comparison and haven't noticed a large difference. My problem G19, which is now cured, is running a unknown name SS guide rod with the stock (18#) spring weight.

The heavier spring is going to store more energy in the frame, making it more "alive" when fired. If you have a strong grip, then countering it will be less difficult.

Maybe try it and let us know your impressions...

[JonInWA]

There's some excellent information on this thread.

The quintessential question that needs to be asked is, "How's the gun going to be used?" If its for plinking, competition, et al, knock yourself out and experiment.

If it's for carry/self defense, stick with the current OEM recoil spring assembly. A little research will quickly reveal that one of the easiest ways to compromise a Glock's operational reliability is to switch out the OEM unit with an aftermarket wonder.

I'm not denying that careful, knowledgeable tuning can improve a Glock's performance. The caveat words are "careful" and "knowledgeable."

For competitive hardware discussions like this, you might want to check out the Brian Enos forums.

Best, Jon

[BufordTJustice]

I wouldn't go any heavier than the stock weight unless you are built like a 235# bodybuilding cop, frequently training with +P loads, like Buford.

I'm flattered, but I lift for strength, not looks. :)

I could give a shit how I look (I'm not "cut" by any stretch)...but the last 300lb college dumb ass whose head I bounced off the pavement sure underestimated me. ;)

I guess I should state that just because somebody has a lot of trunk strength, does NOT mean that their hands/forearms are just as strong. #handstrengthtrainingforeverybody

[Magic_Salad0892]

I'm not denying that careful, knowledgeable tuning can improve a Glock's performance. The caveat words are "careful" and "knowledgeable."

This is the end goal.

The gun will be used for concealed carry, with Federal/Hornady 147 gr. JHPs.

Are you guys saying that the Gen3 Single caption G19 spring is 15 lbs, and the Gen4 is 18 lbs?

For the Gen3 guns I kind of want to go 2 pounds higher, and see if it compromises reliability, if so then there isn't a reason to switch units. I'm not gonna switch assemblies just to have the same weight spring, that's retarded.

The Gen4 gun will get a Glockmeister spring assembly regardless.

[Magic_Salad0892]

There's some excellent information on this thread.


Glad it became of use.

[TN-popo]

I use a G19 with a Wolff 15# recoil spring/rod. Felt recoil is noticably reduced and my split times shrunk.

I let several intermediate / advanced level shooters shoot a stock G19 and my G19 side x side.
Nearly all of them preferred mine.

Most of the beginner level shooters that did it couldn't tell much of a difference.

All that said, I do use standard pressure ammo for training and carry (nothing to do with my recoil rod/spring choice).

[uwe1]

I believe the stock Gen3 G17 spring weight is 17# and Gen3 G19 is 18#. I read that on Glockmeister a few years ago and my memory could be faulty. I don't know what the Gen4s are.

[CAVDOC]

non exisitent problem here is your solution

[EzGoingKev]

non exisitent problem here is your solution
Thank God he started this thread so you could play wise old owl.

To the OP, buy a tungsten rod and some springs, shoot it, then post your results.

[hatidua]

the last 300lb college dumb ass whose head I bounced off the pavement sure underestimated me. ;)

Thank goodness we got that tidbit of info tossed into the conversation :rolleyes:

[BufordTJustice]

Thank goodness we got that tidbit of info tossed into the conversation :rolleyes:

Thanks for being a d*ck.

I have a dangerous job....I guess this isn't a safe place any more to BS about it from time to time. 'preciate it.

[Magic_Salad0892]

To the OP, buy a tungsten rod and some springs, shoot it, then post your results.

I was trying to learn off of others mistakes and observations. Not make mistakes of my own to gather information from. :p

[EzGoingKev]

I was trying to learn off of others mistakes and observations. Not make mistakes of my own to gather information from. :p
Making mistakes on your own are how people learn things. Something like this is very subjective as there are too many variables.

If the parts we are discussing were expensive by all means I would put more reliance on others opinions. In this case the parts are all short money and can be sold off if they do not produce the desired result.

[ck1]

There's some excellent information on this thread.

The quintessential question that needs to be asked is, "How's the gun going to be used?" If its for plinking, competition, et al, knock yourself out and experiment.

If it's for carry/self defense, stick with the current OEM recoil spring assembly. A little research will quickly reveal that one of the easiest ways to compromise a Glock's operational reliability is to switch out the OEM unit with an aftermarket wonder.

I'm not denying that careful, knowledgeable tuning can improve a Glock's performance. The caveat words are "careful" and "knowledgeable."

For competitive hardware discussions like this, you might want to check out the Brian Enos forums.

Best, Jon

This, +1000.

If a gun is first and foremost an SD weapon, if the stock recoil-spring weight is working 100%, then if it ain't broke, don't fix it...

Playing with recoil-spring weights is something that is best left to experimentation, or the experienced. No one needs to find out the hard way that they've made their defensive handgun unreliable by messing with it, and carrying a gun for defense that's been resprung differently from stock without knowing what you're doing and without plenty of testing is a bad idea.

Truthfully, most shooters want even be able to harness the advantages until lots of other fairly advanced skills are near mastered (i.e. if you can't track your front sight and watch it lift under recoil, then you need to learn that first before messing with springs).

Another thing, while on the subject of recoil-springs in Glock's, while going lighter will increase slide-velocity and add some benefits, do to the Glock design, go too low/soft and your gun will fire out of battery and blow up (lighter than around 13lbs +/- with a stock striker-spring)... the striker-spring and recoil-spring pull against each other when one pulls a Glock's trigger, forget that and let one spring overpower the other and things will get ugly, that's why it's important to think about what you're doing and not just try anything to see what happens.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I'm starting to see the clearer picture now.

Gen3 - OEM unit it is.

Gen4 - Glockmeister unit will be better, along with White Sound Defence EDP, and the future APEX extractor. Just trying to determine what weight spring I need.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Hey everybody new news. For the Gen4 recoil assembly.

I've always wanted Glockmeister to make a polymer version of their single captioned unit, but I actually found one.

http://jagerproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=35&products_id=91&zenid=tgjukd9n7mm5a3aq5c6goptau0

I've ordered one, and if it completes the 2k reliability test with a LWD extractor (+LCI), and WSD HRED plunger, then this will be my carry setup.

The recoil spring will be ISMI 18 lbs. And my other Gen4 that I'm about to pick up tomorrow will be wearing an ISMI 15 lbs. recoil spring for lighter 115 gr. loads.

Update on my G17:

Also, I've gotten rid of my Gen4 G17, sold it to a friend. My G19 Gen4 is using an OEM threaded barrel, and it's proven reliable with my AAC Ti-RANT.

I'm waiting for 2 more threaded barrels, and I think I'm on my way to being done dicking with my pistols.