View Full Version : How many rounds is enough?
The thread "Why not a 1911 or a revolver over a 15 round semi-auto?", has got me rethinking my choice for ccw. To the author of that thread.... thank you, it is a very valid question. To you experienced handgun carriers, how many rounds in a handgun do you consider, is enough? Is it 18, 15, 13, 12, 10......? That thread has me thinking that my Springfield 1911 with 8+1 capacity might just be an outdated choice. Don't get me wrong, my favorite handgun is this semi-custom Loaded model that I am almost surgical with at 10 yards and under: but I have M&P's in .40 caliber with 15+1 capacity. They have the Apex trigger and Ram and I'm almost as good with them as the 1911. I'm at the crossroads where the "Law of Diminishing Returns", is a must travel. Your comments and experience are welcomed, thanks.
More is always better if you can get away with it.
I'd say minimum in my area is 10. It's honestly not uncommon for goblins to run in packs of 5 or more.
I say that as a guy who's carried revolvers and 1911's and love them both.
I can't imagine someone being in a situation and ever saying "boy, I sure am glad I only had 7 rounds instead of 14.
Personally I carry a Gen. 3 Glock 19 with one spare mag, mags loaded to 14. Currently rides in a Kramer #3 IWB, which I can wear and conceal comfortably in shorts with a button up short sleeve shirt in the summer.
I have a very nice Wilson CQB sitting in the safe with a Milt Sparks Summer Special II sitting next to it.
If you are going to carry a good 1911 and are proficient with it, two spare mags at the minimum.
polydeuces
07-31-11, 13:19
A while back I read about an incident that occurred locally, where a group of 6 men (gang?), 2 of which were armed, randomly beat up, then shot and killed one man who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Do the math - if it were you and it became a "firefight" - how many rounds you think would be enough?
If rule #1 is to bring a gun, #2 should be to bring plenty of ammo.
Reagans Rascals
07-31-11, 13:20
to be honest, its completely impossible to say, unless there were some divine way to peak behind the horizon that is the future and distinguish just exactly what formidable foe or foe's we will encounter.
Looking back at prior research at how many rounds are fired on average in a gun fight wont do any good. The odds are the same no matter what. Its like playing the powerball and looking back overtime and using the most picked numbers, in the end it wont matter. The odds are still 1 in 120 mil for each and every draw.
Essentially what I am trying to say is, there is really no way to be certain just how many will get the job done, because there's no way to ever be certain just what you will run into. It could be 1 small man with a knife, or it could be a mentally ill 6'6 280 pound assailant all coked up on PCP....
I say its better to play it safe and go with as much as you can carry and employ safely and still be "legally" concealed.
I carry a Glock 30 13+1 .45 ACP with M3X, and 1 additional 13 round magazine.
A simple glock 19 is more than adequate for every day carry...spare mags and ammo in the car if one decides to stop at the local range on the way home from work is good to have too!
Thanks for the replies guys. I guess I was asking how many rounds do you feel comfortable carrying? Each of you have displayed that by stating what you carry. I used to feel comfortable carrying 8+1 in the pistol and 1 or 2 reloads but not anymore. We're moving offices to a shittier side of town, I hate it and I'm working on GTFO but for right now I'm having to deal with it. The M&P with 15+1 with 1 reload makes much more sense. I'm 90% as good as with the 1911. Thanks for helping me make my decision.
Magic_Salad0892
07-31-11, 13:57
15 is my minimum in a double stack pistol.
****ers run in packs, have standard capacity magazines, and shoot back.
I want to be prepared.
Carry what you shoot best. If it is concealable and you are proficient with the reload, you are on the right track. If it is "low-capacity," carry more magazines. Single column magazines are no burden to carry. You can never miss enough times to win a gunfight. Carry what you shoot best.
15 is my minimum in a double stack pistol.
****ers run in packs, have standard capacity magazines, and shoot back.
I want to be prepared.
This. And of course there is no way to know how much ammo is "enough". If your lucky, you might know after the fact. ;)
Magic_Salad0892
07-31-11, 14:08
Carry what you shoot best.
It's tempting to agree with this, but I can't. I just can't agree with it.
Why?...
Well... what if you shoot the best with a Jennings .380?... or a Beretta .25 ACP?
How about a Hi-Point C9?
Not suitable. I say pick the gun that fits your needs and train around/to it.
Don't pick the gun you ''shoot best'', ''or fits your hand the best'' and build it around your mission, that's retarded.
titsonritz
07-31-11, 14:09
It's always better to have too many than not enough.
brushy bill
07-31-11, 14:20
Well... what if you shoot the best with a Jennings .380?... or a Beretta .25 ACP?
How about a Hi-Point C9?
Not suitable. I say pick the gun that fits your needs and train around/to it.
Don't pick the gun you ''shoot best'', ''or fits your hand the best'' and build it around your mission.
Well stated
How many rounds minimum is the wrong question to ask IMHO, because if God forbid you have to shoot to defend your life, then you'll never rue the fact that you brought too much gun or too much ammo to the encounter, so the question ought to be how many rounds can you comfortably carry on your person.
When my dress permits me to conceal my G19, I carry a spare G17 mag loaded to 16 (to make seating of the mag easier with the gun in battery), and I do not feel underarmed.
I think carrying an extra mag with an auto is good also from the point of view of being able to replace a potentially malfunctioning mag during a stoppage.
When I have to carry something smaller I carry a 638 with an extra 6 rounds in a "speed" strip, but that is obviously being underarmed compared to the G19 set up if one is dealing with a multiple attackers scenario.
I am currently debating getting an LCP, or a Walther PPS/Kahr PM9 for when I'm in very formal dress, and I would definitely carry an extra mag with those as well, not only for the extra ammo, but also for dealing with a potential stoppage.
Magic_Salad0892
07-31-11, 14:26
back in the spring, I posted a question on here to the effect that maybe I just couldn't shoot a semi-auto and should stick with a DA revolver. The overwhelming response was no, I should learn my semi, but I could tell that some thought I had my heels dug in and would ignore the advice....
Since then, I have put over 3500 rounds through my Beretta 92, and ONLY the 92, no revolvers, no 1911's, etc. My previous accuracy issues have gone away, and I'm now able to get my hits with the Beretta as I was with the revolvers before, and I feel much more confident with 17 rounds on tap instead of 6, and the pistol has proven itself stone cold reliable.
So, thanks for the advice and encouragement, and lastly, don't think that no one is listening, because I am. My post count may be low, but that don't mean I'm not paying close attention. Thanks again.
It's hard to argue with these results. If this guy had gone with whatever he'd shot best, or whatever fit his hand...
He'd be using a gun with 6 (revolver), or 8 (1911) rounds, with a slower reload (revolver), a debatable worse shot to shot recovery (.45 ACP, .357, or other revolver calibers vs. 9x19mm NATO), heavier gun (1911), and IMHO, a gun that wouldn't be suited to multiple attackers, with standard capacity magazines, that shoot back.
I wouldn't want a revolver OR a 1911 in that situation, and in a shooting... as another poster in another thread said better than I:
I'm already on the wrong side of the statistics, I don't want to be counting on them being in my favor now.
Or something like that.
He picked a gun for his mission, and trained around it. And he's now a more capable individual, with a more capable weapon now, in my honest opinion.
I think carrying an extra mag with an auto is good also from the point of view of being able to replace a potentially malfunctioning mag during a stoppage.
Good point, that I've considered, and mentioned in other threads.
When I have to carry something smaller I carry a 638 with an extra 6 rounds in a "speed" strip, but that is obviously being underarmed compared to the G19 set up if one is dealing with a multiple attackers scenario.
I am currently debating getting an LCP, or a Walther PPS/Kahr PM9 for when I'm in very formal dress, and I would definitely carry an extra mag with those as well, not only for the extra ammo, but also for dealing with a potential stoppage.
When wearing a suit, a Glock 19 can be carried comfortably. I've carried to funerals, and wedding that way. IWB. 5 O'clock.
Answers in red.
Long Tom Coffin
07-31-11, 14:58
15 is my minimum in a double stack pistol.
****ers run in packs, have standard capacity magazines, and shoot back.
I want to be prepared.
Agreed.
My current set up is:
Gen 4 G19, 15+1
2 Spar mags, 5 apiece n124 gr +P GD
1 Ruger LCR, with 135 gr GD short barrel, and a speed strip with same on my belt.
That's alot of ammunition.
I also live in St. Louis. :ph34r:
Now, to be fair to my city, the vast majority of the heinous criminal acts that occur are usually happening in the North Side, say from Martin Luther King Blvd northward. That is the bad section of town. Imagine dozens of square miles of abandoned factories, burned out housing developments, and ramshackle slums, and you have the idea. At the risk of sounding racist, it's the place where white people don't go unless they bring guns, know how to use them, and have lots of friends by side with similar skills. The county, Central West End, and South Side all used to be relatively safe, but not any more. We are seeing lots and lots more filth escaping from the north side to run amok in other areas. St. Louis is a cess pit because it is run by idiot democrats, and one of their pet projects has been expanding the public transportation systems, which has allowed the shit to filter into other previously safe areas. I'm not seeing to many gangs roving around my area yet, but they are starting to make their presence known on the south side, both in the city and in the county. An elderly vietnamese couple got fatally beaten there by a group of them just a few days ago.
Honestly? With the areas I currently run in, I would have felt perfectly protected with my Ruger Sp101 with .38's and no reloads just a few years ago. Nowadays? I won't go out with anything less than 30 rounds. The criminals will travel to do what they want. Case in point the last CCW related shooting I was aware of locally was when a man was taking a walk around his neighborhood at night in an upscale local suburb, when he was held up by a thug from the north side who traveled 20 miles with the sole intention of robbing someone. The civilian was uninjured and the thug got a dirt nap, but it just goes to show the areas where you thought you might be safe aren't anymore.
I started carrying with a 3" GP100. I was a revolver man. I carried a double action, but I was in love with single actions. I carried two speedloaders and a speed strip for a total of 24 rounds. After my children were born, I decided that the revolver was no longer ideal for many reasons. With children in tow, its a real possiblity that I may not have both hands available to defend us. Double action revolvers are generally difficult to shoot one handed and almost absolutely necessitate two hands to reload. With only 6 rounds on board, the likely hood of needing to reload are quite high, even if it amounted to nothing more than fully dumping the cylinger and bringing it back to full capacity after the action stops. It's also much more difficult to use a handheld light with a revolver than an auto, in my opinion.
With all this in mind, I switched to a Springfield Loaded 1911 that I already owned. It was outfitted with Novak tritium sights and 9 Wilson 8 round magazines of which two spares were carried. This improved my situation tremendously, however, I still felt that the need to reload was too high with only 9 rounds in the gun.
I now rely on an M&P9 with 18 rounds of 124 gr +P Gold Dots. I carry one spare mag, giving me a total of 35 rounds. I feel much more comfortable with this set-up as I truly believe my chances of needing a reload mid-fight are pretty low with 18 rounds on board. It is also much easier to shoot the M&P one handed than the 1911.
My children being born made me realize that, if I were ever in need of my gun, the chances are good I will not be in an advantagous situation and therefore need as much help as I can get from my equipment. Having a gun that is easier to shoot, easier to reload and has 2-3 times the ammunition capacity of my previous choices was a good idea.
As much as I can have in a package I can still conceal, assuming a cartridge I can trust.
Currently that means a Glock 17 and a M642. I have two more magazines and two extra speedloaders in the car just in case.
In some cases, the dress code won't allow me to carry the Glock, but I might get away with a pair of snubs and a ton of prayers.
Agreed.
My current set up is:
Gen 4 G19, 15+1
2 Spar mags, 5 apiece n124 gr +P GD
1 Ruger LCR, with 135 gr GD short barrel, and a speed strip with same on my belt.
That's alot of ammunition.
I also live in St. Louis. :ph34r:
Now, to be fair to my city, the vast majority of the heinous criminal acts that occur are usually happening in the North Side, say from Martin Luther King Blvd northward. That is the bad section of town. Imagine dozens of square miles of abandoned factories, burned out housing developments, and ramshackle slums, and you have the idea. At the risk of sounding racist, it's the place where white people don't go unless they bring guns, know how to use them, and have lots of friends by side with similar skills. The county, Central West End, and South Side all used to be relatively safe, but not any more. We are seeing lots and lots more filth escaping from the north side to run amok in other areas. St. Louis is a cess pit because it is run by idiot democrats, and one of their pet projects has been expanding the public transportation systems, which has allowed the shit to filter into other previously safe areas. I'm not seeing to many gangs roving around my area yet, but they are starting to make their presence known on the south side, both in the city and in the county. An elderly vietnamese couple got fatally beaten there by a group of them just a few days ago.
Honestly? With the areas I currently run in, I would have felt perfectly protected with my Ruger Sp101 with .38's and no reloads just a few years ago. Nowadays? I won't go out with anything less than 30 rounds. The criminals will travel to do what they want. Case in point the last CCW related shooting I was aware of locally was when a man was taking a walk around his neighborhood at night in an upscale local suburb, when he was held up by a thug from the north side who traveled 20 miles with the sole intention of robbing someone. The civilian was uninjured and the thug got a dirt nap, but it just goes to show the areas where you thought you might be safe aren't anymore.
You don't sound like a racist. Facts are facts, and if people are too stupid to realize that then **** them. I live and work in Atlanta, a shitty city that's in the running with the top 10 murder capitals of the U.S. on a regular basis. Now my office is moving deeper inside the scumbag area, lucky me right? I'm definitely hanging up the SA 1911 and putting the M&P .40fs on my belt in a M-tac worn at 3:30 with a reload. That will bring me up to 31 rounds of 180 HST's total I'm going to practice and shoot IDPA with it exclusively now, a role held by my 1911 until I joined M4carbine, read, and started this thread. I feel comfortable with this decision and that helps some mentally dealing the the office move. Thanks to all who posted and helped me "wise up" about the capacity vs. caliber internal dillema that was pacing through my mind.
Pistol Shooter
07-31-11, 16:24
I now rely on an M&P9 with 18 rounds of 124 gr +P Gold Dots. I carry one spare mag, giving me a total of 35 rounds. I feel much more comfortable with this set-up as I truly believe my chances of needing a reload mid-fight are pretty low with 18 rounds on board.
Very good point. :)
I don't think someone can have too much ammo. (I'd rather have it and not need it than not have enough.)
I carry a P30 loaded with 15+1 rds. of 124 gr. +P Gold Dot ammo and a spare 15 rd. magazine.
Beat Trash
07-31-11, 18:09
I carried a Glock 19 for a long time, with one spare magazine, when off duty/CCW. Love that gun.
I was issued an M&P9 in 2006. I've spent so much time with the M&P's that I can now shoot my M&P9c slightly better than my Glock 19. So I find myself carrying my M&P9c more often.
With the M&P9c, I carry 12 + 1 in the gun and one spare 17 rd magazine.
I fully load all my pistol magazines. It is a requirement with the agency I've been with for the last 19 years. (This is due to accountability after the fact.) I've never had an issue seating a fully loaded magazine in my pistols with the slide forward. To include my Glock 19 and Glock 26.
I've kept Glock 9mm magazines fully loaded for as long as two years without issue.
If you feel more comfortable downloading your pistol magazines, I won't try to dissuade anyone.
For civilian CCW/off-duty LEO, I feel that 15 - 17 rounds in the gun plus a spare magazine should handle most realistic incidents.
I'm carrying a M&P45 mid with 2 spare mags. I carrying a total of 27 rounds. My RCS holster and mag carrier works pretty well for most of my needs. Summertime can be a bit tricky but Fall, Winter and Spring are usually no problem.
Good comments. I "had" a Glock 36 I took in trade on a gun deal. After some time went by, I discovered it was near the exact same size as my Glock 23 and yet offered up less than half the round capacity.
As much as I love the .45 acp round, and the size of the 36, I traded it for a decent road bike. I felt it was an excellent deal, since I had become more like the rotund .45 round in physical shape, and lacking endurance, much like the low capacity 36. I'm on my way to solving both issues thanks to that trade.
polydeuces
07-31-11, 18:42
Since we're sharing details - I always carry 17+1 (M&P9), with always one spare mag somewhere in my pockets stashed away.
Anything less than 30 rounds is not happening.
In my car I keep usually 6 magazines; 2 driver side door, 2 center console, 2 passenger side door.
Additionally there's always one AR SBR tucked in the rear, easy access (Jeep SUV) in a case with 6 tanked up magazines.
As was so eloquently said : those ****ers travel in packs, and even though I stay out of questionable area's, it can come to you, anytime.
Not paranoid - just prepared. :D
This is why we carry.
Anyone have a spare M&P magazine belt holder they can recommend me that will fit on a 1.5 inch belt?
Trick question!
When it comes to defending yourself or others, enough just isn't enough.
How many rounds will I settle for? What ever I can get away with, which is usually 15 since Glock 19 is a very respectable piece to conceal carry.
When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 with only one hand compared to a 1911--try reloading in a fight when you only have one hand functioning. I soon became quite enamored with relying on firearms with more rounds available before needing to reload...
As I have previously discussed, several months ago I was out in the evening walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and churlishly attempted to block my passage and harass me. Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black labrador who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood. I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, the thought of only 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame and no harder to conceal than a G26. If this situation had taken a turn for the worse and gone badly, the 15 rounds on tap in a G19--equivalent to carrying three J-frames--was far more confidence inspiring than having to rely on a 5 shot J-frame. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.
fiddly_foo
07-31-11, 19:03
I always try to carry my hk45c with a full mag and an extra mag on my side.. But I make this mistake which i'm sure we all do sometimes when were just quick running out to get something right down the road and just take the 1 gun or I even just take my kahr p380 and through it in my pocket it's summer time. But I always wonder if this is the time I might need something and my life is in hand. So I'm trying to get better at no matter were or when I'm going if it's for 10min to all day to carry what I should be my gun and extra mag and be comfortable with it. Like someone said before you never know were and when so be ready and prepared and hopefully all of us here never have to no how many rounds is enough.....
For a Long time I carried a J-Frame with a speed strip in a strong side Kramer belt pouch and two more speed strips in my left front pocket. The five shot was carried in my right front pants pocket 99% of the time. A few years ago I started carrying a G27 again in my right front pocket. When the 27's came out I was carrying a G23 and never wanted the 27 because of the small size difference. I switched because of the better cal and speed of reloads.
The 27 has the standard 9 round magazine and a 9 rounder with the + shoe on it for a total of 20 rounds. That is the same 20 rounds I carried for years with my J-Frames. I have carried 15 rounders in my pocket and in a horizontal belt pouch but the ten rounder just works better for me. I carry 100% of the time when legal. :D the J-Frame and now the G27 work very well for me.
I also have several spare 15 rounders in my truck and one spare 10 round mag with mag pouches that can be thrown on quickly. A spare speedloader and belt mounted pouch ride in the truck for those retro carry days.
Nothing says "STOP! GO AWAY!" better than the muzzel of a .45acp.
I have them in 6 rd, 7rd, 8rd, 10 rd and 13 rd mag capacities. I dress for the occassion! In 2's!!!!!!! and sometimes 3's.
I carry an M&P9 Compact. Then I carry a full size spare with an Arredondo extended base plate in my weak hand pocket. That's 35 rounds. I've not found a comfortable way to carry a spare mag in a holder so I usually just pocket the spare. It's worked well for me over the last year.
Code3Patriot
07-31-11, 23:38
Nothing says "STOP! GO AWAY!" better than the muzzel of a .45acp.
I have them in 6 rd, 7rd, 8rd, 10 rd and 13 rd mag capacities. I dress for the occassion! In 2's!!!!!!! and sometimes 3's.
I had a semi auto pointed at my face once, I didn't take particular note of the size of the "muzzel".
On the other hand, once while off-duty I drew my J-Frame on a oxygen bandit who was breaking into my ride, he shit his pants on the spot. I don't think he cared what caliber my firearm was.
It's not how many rounds you have, but how well you can deliver them. I'd be perfectly comfortable carrying 8+1 and a spare or two if just carrying CCW. I prefer relying on situational awareness to keep/get me out of trouble more than how many rounds I have at my disposal. I usually carry a G-19 off duty with one spare. On duty is a different story. I carry a G-21 with 13+1, and two spares with Arrendondo +4's, for a total of 48 rounds.
i carry a j-frame at work for comfort and concealability.... (it's this or nothing, especially in the summer)
glock 19 everywhere else. 30 rounds is my happy place;15+1 in the gun, 14 in a spare mag for easy seating.
the odds of needing more than 30 rounds as a civilian in a gunfight are extraordinarily low, its' for all practical purposes "infinite ammo"
Magic_Salad0892
08-01-11, 00:34
FWIW I carry two spare magazines. Makes me sleep better at night, and helps make sure that I make it home, to sleep that night...
as another argument for carrying a spare mag.... i walked out of the house with a chambered but otherwise unloaded gun last year. thanks to my spare mag, i was able to turn it into a fully loaded gun.
It's tempting to agree with this, but I can't. I just can't agree with it.
Why?...
Well... what if you shoot the best with a Jennings .380?... or a Beretta .25 ACP?
How about a Hi-Point C9?
Not suitable. I say pick the gun that fits your needs and train around/to it.
Don't pick the gun you ''shoot best'', ''or fits your hand the best'' and build it around your mission, that's retarded.
He was stuck between a single stack 1911 and a hi-cap wunder-9. My response was based upon that. Certainly it should be a given that anything under 9mm is not suitable as a primary.
Nothing says "STOP! GO AWAY!" better than the muzzel of a .45acp.
I have them in 6 rd, 7rd, 8rd, 10 rd and 13 rd mag capacities. I dress for the occassion! In 2's!!!!!!! and sometimes 3's.
This a foolish, groundless and irresponsible reason for picking any weapon. This sounds much more like an ego massage.
Anyone have a spare M&P magazine belt holder they can recommend me that will fit on a 1.5 inch belt?
Love mine from Kytexgear.com......check them out.
This a foolish, groundless and irresponsible reason for picking any weapon. This sounds much more like an ego massage.
Is there something wrong with a .45acp? Low round count or high round count? What is your issue with my choices? There is nothing irresponsible or foolish about carrying a .45acp. Some would argue anything less would be foolish. I don't need an ego - I'm too old - been there - done that - with a .45.
Go pick on someone else - It works for me.
Is there something wrong with a .45acp? Low round count or high round count? What is your issue with my choices? There is nothing irresponsible or foolish about carrying a .45acp. Some would argue anything less would be foolish. I don't need an ego - I'm too old - been there - done that - with a .45.
Go pick on someone else - It works for me.
I think he's referring to your assertion that somehow the muzzle-on view of a .45 will strike fear and trepidation into the heart of your assailant in a way that perhaps a smaller caliber wouldn't. I've pointed 12ga. shotguns at suspects whose responses have ranged from urinating in their pants to flipping me off and walking away. I don't buy that a .45 has some ability to scare people off any more than a 9mm or a sharp stick.
Personally, I try to have at least a twenty round total between my carry and reload(s), but sometimes I run a round or two shy of that, especially if I am carrying a 45c or 1911. If I am going somewhere a little more dicey, the mission drives the gear, and I will carry a higher capacity pistol and/or more spare mags. Or even a back up.
Every once in a while I catch myself with just a J frame and a speed strip or two, usually for convenience sake. Whenever I can though I try to have at least a mid size pistol and 1 spare mag on me.
When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 with only one hand compared to a 1911--try reloading in a fight when you only have one hand functioning. I soon became quite enamored with relying on firearms with more rounds available before needing to reload...
As I have previously discussed, several months ago I was out in the evening walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and churlishly attempted to block my passage and harass me. Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black labrador who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood. I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, the thought of only 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame and no harder to conceal than a G26. If this situation had taken a turn for the worse and gone badly, the 15 rounds on tap in a G19--equivalent to carrying three J-frames--was far more confidence inspiring than having to rely on a 5 shot J-frame. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.
Great post, and thank you for sharing your story. The only time I was robbed was when I was 17 leaving a bowling alley at about 10pm. There were 5 of them and 3 of us. They waited until we got into our car, then they blocked us in from behind. We were parked in so there was a car in front of us, two beside us and the robbers behind us. Just one of the chicken shits got out, ran to the drivers window, stuck a little chrome piece of shit pistol in our faces and demanded money. I was in the passenger seat and was unarmed. I knew what was happening when we got blocked in and one got out. If I was armed I know I would have had time to pop the s.o.b. 3 or 4 times before he got to the drivers side window. I was and always have been a good shot because I've been shooting since I was 12. But I was only 17 and it was and still is not legal to carry at that age. The result was scarring and I'll never forget it. It's the reason I carry every day and gave me a rise in situational awareness that I've honed and carried into my adult life. If anything like that happens again there will be no hesitation.
Great post, and thank you for sharing your story. The only time I was robbed was when I was 17 leaving a bowling alley at about 10pm. There were 5 of them and 3 of us. They waited until we got into our car, then they blocked us in from behind. We were parked in so there was a car in front of us, two beside us and the robbers behind us. Just one of the chicken shits got out, ran to the drivers window, stuck a little chrome piece of shit pistol in our faces and demanded money. I was in the passenger seat and was unarmed. I knew what was happening when we got blocked in and one got out. If I was armed I know I would have had time to pop the s.o.b. 3 or 4 times before he got to the drivers side window. I was and always have been a good shot because I've been shooting since I was 12. But I was only 17 and it was and still is not legal to carry at that age. The result was scarring and I'll never forget it. It's the reason I carry every day and gave me a rise in situational awareness that I've honed and carried into my adult life. If anything like that happens again there will be no hesitation.
Your story and the one told by Dr. Roberts are at the heart of why concealed carry is important. Having a gun gives you options. Even if you choose not to employ the gun, you nevertheless have the option to. Without it, you have put your fate in the hands of a witless thug or some other variety of predator. By having a gun and the right training, you have made the choice to not be a victim if at all possible. It's something the anti-gun crowd just doesn't grasp. That and the fact that there are people in this world who would kill another human being just as easily as they would look at one.
Team Chuck Norris
08-01-11, 11:36
The question of the post asked how many rounds is enough? I would offer the following considerations. LEOs are usually required by their departments to carry a certain number of rounds along with a certain number of magazines. My local police carry the Glock 22 with two extra magazines. Their duty load is the Federal Bonded. They carry 45 rounds of ammunition. Unlike a LEO, the law abiding citizen does not have a radio clipped to their duty uniform. That radio can result in many, many other LEOs showing up, all with their own firepower, should the need arise. The law abiding citizen is on their own. Hopefully they have a cell phone with them, but it likely is not as accessible as a uniform-clipped radio mike. I would suggest that the citizen may need more ammunition than the LEO.
I think he's referring to your assertion that somehow the muzzle-on view of a .45 will strike fear and trepidation into the heart of your assailant in a way that perhaps a smaller caliber wouldn't. I've pointed 12ga. shotguns at suspects whose responses have ranged from urinating in their pants to flipping me off and walking away. I don't buy that a .45 has some ability to scare people off any more than a 9mm or a sharp stick.
This, exactly. At no time should one think, even for a split second, that the mere precense of a gun, regardless of caliber, is sufficient to scare off an attacker. There's a good chance that a person who is very gun savvy may be unable to distinguish the caliber, or even the model, of a gun being pointed at them during an attack. If it's a low light situation, that argument becomes complete bunk, being that one may not even see the weapon in question.
Paul45, I'm not picking on you and no one is too old for an ego, but your argument is right up there with some of the more ridiculous AR and shotgun myths. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a perp who has backed down because his intended victim had a, gasp, .45.
There is nothing "wrong" with the .45, but it ain't a death ray.
Nephrology
08-01-11, 13:24
I draw the line at 10+1 in the gun. I don't always have the luxury of carrying spares in the summer on my belt (hide worse than the gun itself) so if i do carry a spare it goes in the pocket. The G26 I can hide with little inconvenience, even in 100+ degrees F heat.
Normally I go with the G19 + spare G17 mag.
edit:
Great post, and thank you for sharing your story. The only time I was robbed was when I was 17 leaving a bowling alley at about 10pm. There were 5 of them and 3 of us. They waited until we got into our car, then they blocked us in from behind. We were parked in so there was a car in front of us, two beside us and the robbers behind us. Just one of the chicken shits got out, ran to the drivers window, stuck a little chrome piece of shit pistol in our faces and demanded money. I was in the passenger seat and was unarmed. I knew what was happening when we got blocked in and one got out. If I was armed I know I would have had time to pop the s.o.b. 3 or 4 times before he got to the drivers side window. I was and always have been a good shot because I've been shooting since I was 12. But I was only 17 and it was and still is not legal to carry at that age. The result was scarring and I'll never forget it. It's the reason I carry every day and gave me a rise in situational awareness that I've honed and carried into my adult life. If anything like that happens again there will be no hesitation.
One of the unfortunately many times I was robbed it was 13 on 1. Given that it was when I was living in france, a gun was not an option, but I like to think that after the 7th or so of their buddies got DTed they would have had a change of heart.
Shadow1198
08-01-11, 13:31
I try to be as consistent as possible in what/how I carry. Every day I carry a 2nd gen G17 (16+1), 1 extra mag (16), at 3 o'clock with a straight drop because it is quick and easy. That's my minimum level of comfort as far as round count. Maybe 25-28rds if I had a G19/26.
Considering most quality guns are not likely to fail completely (I understand the Murphy factor, but bear with me), I think the easiest thing to do is simply carry more mags. Although I'd still try to have at least 1 or 2 mags in a standard accessible position, mags aren't that heavy or difficult to hide so why not have an extra 1 or 2 on top of that in some pockets as a backup? Yeah it can be a bit cumbersome but, who really cares about comfort? If I wanted comfort I'd get a Thai hooker massage with happy ending. ;) What's a few extra ounces of weight in a pocket or two for an extra 15-30rds? That's worth it to me.
If I'm carrying a double-stack pistol such as my Glock (17,19, 21 or 34) or Beretta 92D, I carry with magazines downloaded by at least one round, and one spare magazine downloaded by at least one round. The spare magazine is normally held in a Wilderness magazine pouch-either vertical or horizontal as clothing dictates, or in a Glock single magazine pouch.
If it's a single stack gun (such as 1911 or Sig-Sauer P225), I carry 2 spare magazines-magazines are held in a Wilderness Double Ugly magazine pouch.
If it's a revolver (Ruger GP100 or Security Six), it's with one speed loader in a pocket, and at least one (and often two) speed strips carried upsidedown in a Bianchi grippered belt case.
Best, Jon
It's tempting to agree with this, but I can't. I just can't agree with it.
Why?...
Well... what if you shoot the best with a Jennings .380?... or a Beretta .25 ACP?
How about a Hi-Point C9?
Not suitable. I say pick the gun that fits your needs and train around/to it.
Don't pick the gun you ''shoot best'', ''or fits your hand the best'' and build it around your mission, that's retarded.
This entire discussion was worth this one post to me. I've always believed this philosophy. I rank what I quoted here as being as high as what Kyle Defoor wrote on his blog regarding accessorizing the AR platform. Learn how to shoot the gun and where to place your offhand, then build the accessories you need around your shooting platform.
Magic_Salad0892
08-01-11, 16:31
This entire discussion was worth this one post to me. I've always believed this philosophy. I rank what I quoted here as being as high as what Kyle Defoor wrote on his blog regarding accessorizing the AR platform. Learn how to shoot the gun and where to place your offhand, then build the accessories you need around your shooting platform.
I appreciate the compliment, however I think that's an insult to Kyle Defoor. :p
A lot of the posts here have gotten me wondering if people had just chosen a gun they like and shoehorned it into their loadout, and then tried to justify it somehow.
I see plenty of people in person, and on this board carrying a $1200 S&W revolver, or a $2000 1911, when a Glock 19, H&K P30, or S&W M&P would be a much better choice for the mission.
The guy who's post I quoted about switching from a S&W revolver to a Beretta 92 is IMHO one of the more memorable, recent, and best successes we've had here in a long time. And it proves my argument as being valid. IMHO.
A lot of people here are already ''in the know'' or came here, then hated the advice and left... Thankfully I was one of the ones who came here, listened to the advice with minimal resistance, and learned from it.
I also agree with Kyle's post about that, and I wish I had read it before I made my purchases.
Whats really weird is that i believe only one or two people mentioned carrying spare magazines for the purpose of fixing malfunctions and having a spare source of ammo to keep the gun running.
I really do believe that if you're SO unlucky that you're currently engaged in a deadly force encounter, the likelihood of your pistol actually working is laughable.
I mean, it sure would be nice if the chips fall into place and your "gunfight" goes absolutely according to plan but i dont think that ever happens.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best and know what the **** to do when the worst is happening.
Having said all of this, i carry a G19 currently with a spare G17 magazine on my hip. I have three spare magazines in my glove compartment, two in my trunk and one in the arm rest area of the drivers side seat in my car.
Is this overkill? Absolutely but its great when i get to the range and realize ive forgotten my ammo. :)
You can never have too much ammunition available to you but again, reality needs to take hold in a situation like this and the end user needs to determine what is comfortable for them to place on their body every day of the year without fail. Commit to the lifestyle and follow through, be consistent.
The more shit you cram onto your hips the higher chance there is of you saying "meh, im only going to the store for a gallon of milk, i dont need my bat belt". Sure enough, Homey G Funk Fresh is there waiting for you and your night is ruined.
Alpha Sierra
08-01-11, 17:13
The guy who's post I quoted about switching from a S&W revolver to a Beretta 92 is IMHO one of the more memorable, recent, and best successes we've had here in a long time. And it proves my argument as being valid. IMHO.
Count me as another one
This, exactly. At no time should one think, even for a split second, that the mere precense of a gun, regardless of caliber, is sufficient to scare off an attacker. There's a good chance that a person who is very gun savvy may be unable to distinguish the caliber, or even the model, of a gun being pointed at them during an attack. If it's a low light situation, that argument becomes complete bunk, being that one may not even see the weapon in question.
Paul45, I'm not picking on you and no one is too old for an ego, but your argument is right up there with some of the more ridiculous AR and shotgun myths. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a perp who has backed down because his intended victim had a, gasp, .45.
There is nothing "wrong" with the .45, but it ain't a death ray.
You are correct, the .45acp ain't a death ray. It is just a handgun round that has over 100 years data. It is MY personal choice and my OPINION. That's all - you don't have to agree or like it and you don't have to attack me because of it. There is nothing wrong with a .45 acp handgun and I still think it has intimidation factor. JUST MY OPINION. i alway thought that people asked because they wanted an opinion. Next time I'll wait until the jury of current logic is in before voice one.
Nephrology
08-01-11, 20:00
You are correct, the .45acp ain't a death ray. It is just a handgun round that has over 100 years data. It is MY personal choice and my OPINION. That's all - you don't have to agree or like it and you don't have to attack me because of it. There is nothing wrong with a .45 acp handgun and I still think it has intimidation factor. JUST MY OPINION. i alway thought that people asked because they wanted an opinion. Next time I'll wait until the jury of current logic is in before voice one.
Nobody is questioning your choice of handgun or caliber.
This forum in particular tends to be very evidence based and something like "intimidation factor" is simply not something that is, well, real, to be honest.
Here we believe that the important characteristic of your chosen handgun be that both it and you be proficient enough to put down an attacker as quickly as possible. Intimidation factor doesn't cut it. A .45 caliber JHP, however, does.
By the way, the quote was from Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. You can continue the discussion with him. He out ranks me.
G26 for light clothing CCW
All others G19 w/ G17 Reload [When it warrants, 340PD BUG]
Plan for the worst, hope for the best and know what the **** to do when the worst is happening.
Learned this shit outside the wire. You gotta have a contingency plan for the contingency plan.
The more shit you cram onto your hips the higher chance there is of you saying "meh, im only going to the store for a gallon of milk, i dont need my bat belt". Sure enough, Homey G Funk Fresh is there waiting for you and your night is ruined.
Almost spilled my coffee on my table when I read this. Good stuff.:D Excellent thread.
The more shit you cram onto your hips the higher chance there is of you saying "meh, im only going to the store for a gallon of milk, i dont need my bat belt". Sure enough, Homey G Funk Fresh is there waiting for you and your night is ruined.
Fantastic. Funny, but speaks to an important point. If your trying to carry gear your not comfortable with, or in a way or location you don't like, or just plain too much, you may burn out and make that trip for milk unarmed.
I carry an M&P9c and one spare mag on my person. I have another couple of mags in the car. It's not uncommon for the old roughed up but solid 870 to ride in the trunk, but not always.
In addition to the M&P, I never leave the house without my Emerson folder w/ waive opening. On occasion its replaced with a fixed blade. (RAT 3 or Emerson PUK).
I haven't seen any others mention that, perhaps because not many carry an edged weapon regularly, or maybe most just didn't think to mention it since the thread is about "round count" but I thought I would throw it out there. If Murphy struck hard and the pistol really went down, I'm cutting my way through them, or at least as many as I can before they get me. I've put a lot of time over the years into empty hand, edged and impact weapons - so as not to be solely reliant on my lead throwers.
Crow Hunter
08-01-11, 20:58
My personal epiphany about capacity happened at my 1st GSSF match on Glock the Plates. I shot in 3 classes that day. Amateur (G19), Sub (G26) and Major Sub (G30).
My 1998 vintage G30 was my oldest and most favorite Glock. I had been shooting it for years and I was the most accurate and comfortable with it.
In Major sub, at the time, you could only load 6 rounds.
In Glock the plates, you have to hit 5 plates. Any plates you leave costs you 10 seconds.
You do this 3 times.
I lost 60 seconds with the G30.:bad:
I missed the 1st plate I shot at 2 times, I got rattled and missed 6 plates all together.:cray:
I didn't do this with the G19 or the G26 because I could have 11 rounds and I had plenty if I flubbed a shot. Having never shot plates before in my life, it was an interesting experience in several ways.
My personal take away from this experience is that I will never have shot someone before if I ever have to defend myself. I personally can expect to have a similar results, even if I am shooting my best/favorite gun that I have trained with often.
Therefore, I would rather more opportunities to miss and not be sitting with an unloaded gun and a stupid WTF! look on my face. :D
My personal use of a handgun as Police Officer, 1 shot 1 hit, condition corrected. 2 shots 1 hit condition corrected. 9 shots 9 hits condition corrected, but the last 3 were just to finish the job and leave nothing to chance. I now carry a G19 with 2 extra mags. I would feel comfortable with a MP 45 and I may go to one soon.
For me the priorities are as follows:
1. Reliable (and I don't mean so long as I use only XYZ bullet and hold it at a perfect angle during a month that ends in "R").
2. Portable (meaning I can carry it all day long. Since the more portable the less powerful it is, I have several options and generally carry the largest weapon the weather, my clothing, and day's routine will allow).
3. Shootable. If I can't put all the shots in a tight cluster at normal combat distances either it's too much caliber for the size or the ergonomics are poor.
4. Powerful. What that means is that it's the largest caliber and best ammo I can use without compromising 1-3 above.
5. Capacity. The more the merrier, assuming I don't compromise 1-4 above.
That's simply what I do. Your own mileage may vary.
Agreed.
My current set up is:
Gen 4 G19, 15+1
2 Spar mags, 5 apiece n124 gr +P GD
1 Ruger LCR, with 135 gr GD short barrel, and a speed strip with same on my belt.
That's alot of ammunition.
I also live in St. Louis. :ph34r:
Now, to be fair to my city, the vast majority of the heinous criminal acts that occur are usually happening in the North Side, say from Martin Luther King Blvd northward. That is the bad section of town. Imagine dozens of square miles of abandoned factories, burned out housing developments, and ramshackle slums, and you have the idea. At the risk of sounding racist, it's the place where white people don't go unless they bring guns, know how to use them, and have lots of friends by side with similar skills. The county, Central West End, and South Side all used to be relatively safe, but not any more. We are seeing lots and lots more filth escaping from the north side to run amok in other areas. St. Louis is a cess pit because it is run by idiot democrats, and one of their pet projects has been expanding the public transportation systems, which has allowed the shit to filter into other previously safe areas. I'm not seeing to many gangs roving around my area yet, but they are starting to make their presence known on the south side, both in the city and in the county. An elderly vietnamese couple got fatally beaten there by a group of them just a few days ago.
Honestly? With the areas I currently run in, I would have felt perfectly protected with my Ruger Sp101 with .38's and no reloads just a few years ago. Nowadays? I won't go out with anything less than 30 rounds. The criminals will travel to do what they want. Case in point the last CCW related shooting I was aware of locally was when a man was taking a walk around his neighborhood at night in an upscale local suburb, when he was held up by a thug from the north side who traveled 20 miles with the sole intention of robbing someone. The civilian was uninjured and the thug got a dirt nap, but it just goes to show the areas where you thought you might be safe aren't anymore.
Same case, only I probably live much closer to them than you do. If I know I'm going on the north side, I carry an M&P9 with 4 spare mags, as well as a backup (Smith 442 with two speed strips). If I'm going or coming to the range, whether or not I'm actually shooting it, the AR is with me with 6-8 loaded mags.
I wouldn't worry about sounding racist. It's the truth. Probably worse for you because you're white, but us blacks ain't any safer over that way. They shot my cousin when he was coming home from the library. Thankfully he managed to get away with only a wound to the leg.
This thread along with other similar threads has really opened my eyes. Off duty I normally carry a 442 at 4:00 with 2 speed strips in my watch pocket. I had the mindset I would always face one or two attackers, tops. Shame on mefor thinking that. These threads, plus an in service class I recently attended in which the salt lake city mall shooting was highlighted (Off duty duty copper at dinner armed w/ a 1911 and no reload was the first to respond to an active shooter) really got me thinking. As soon as funds allow, I'm buying a G19 and comptac. Living in STL, the mopes are migrating farther away from the hood to rob, rape, and pillage. I'm not becoming a statistic.
Beat Trash
08-02-11, 10:09
There was a recent thread titled "Thoughts on carrying a J-frame instead of a sub-compact Glock"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81729
It ended up along the same lines this one is going.
DSK summed up his priorities very well, and I'm in total agreement with his statement. But keep in mind you shouldn't sacrifice one priority for another.
I've never been to St. Louis. But to carry four spare 17 rd mags, it must be pretty bad.
3958, I'm glad you had a useful inservice training session. Ours are usually geared around political correctness.
A couple of months ago, I pulled the offense reports for Aggravated Robberies and Felonious Assaults for my District, for just one week. I was looking to see how often multiple suspects were involved. The majority of the time there were. When there were, the magic number seemed to be three. If one had a gun, they all had a gun.
Kinda takes the "warm and fuzzy" out of carrying just that S&W 642!
I live near and work as a LEO in Cincinnati Ohio. Last night was the second time this month suspects were shooting at each other (everyone has to have a hobby, I guess) that when officers arrived, the suspects stopped shooting at each other and started shooting at the Police. I bring this up as an example of the arrogance and boldness I'm seeing out there. If these individuals won't think twice about shooting at Uniformed Officers, they wouldn't give a second thought to shooting private citizens.
My S&W 642 is comfortable to carry. But my S&W M&P9 is comforting to carry.
Beat Trash makes a good point and I think this recognition (that bg's often travel in packs and all are likely armed) is what convinced me that, even though I'm a civilian, if I need to defend myself in this era there's a good chance I would need more capacity than the previous generation did. I used to carry a custom 1911, but a combination of the weight, the maintenance cost/hassle, and the capacity issue, convinced me to switch to the M&P 9. So now when carrying the compact I have either 25 rounds, or when carrying full-size I have 35.
Long Tom Coffin
08-02-11, 10:50
Same case, only I probably live much closer to them than you do. If I know I'm going on the north side, I carry an M&P9 with 4 spare mags, as well as a backup (Smith 442 with two speed strips). If I'm going or coming to the range, whether or not I'm actually shooting it, the AR is with me with 6-8 loaded mags.
I hear that. Being Catholic, most of my family is buried in Calvary off of Union. If I'm going there, I'm bringing at least 2 spare reloads for everything, as well as the shotgun or ar in the trunk.
I wouldn't worry about sounding racist. It's the truth. Probably worse for you because you're white, but us blacks ain't any safer over that way. They shot my cousin when he was coming home from the library. Thankfully he managed to get away with only a wound to the leg.
Tell it. I've got a college buddy who's black who lived in freaking Baden. His grandma had a house there and he was taking care of her after his parents died. He got held up all the time. Last time it was in his own driveway by a thug with a sawed off. He was motivating himself to go to school and better himself by drawing up a list of everyone he knew who was killed by violence. It was a legal pad sheet full on both sides with names.
Long Tom Coffin
08-02-11, 10:58
This thread along with other similar threads has really opened my eyes. Off duty I normally carry a 442 at 4:00 with 2 speed strips in my watch pocket. I had the mindset I would always face one or two attackers, tops. Shame on mefor thinking that. These threads, plus an in service class I recently attended in which the salt lake city mall shooting was highlighted (Off duty duty copper at dinner armed w/ a 1911 and no reload was the first to respond to an active shooter) really got me thinking. As soon as funds allow, I'm buying a G19 and comptac. Living in STL, the mopes are migrating farther away from the hood to rob, rape, and pillage. I'm not becoming a statistic.
I am a HUGE fan of comptac products. I've got a Comp-Tac M-Tac that's freaking amazing. Comp-tac has them on sale right now for like around $70 bucks and it's worth every cent. Super comfy, great retention, and lightning fast draw. I also have a Minotaur and one of their standard speed cut owb holsters and they are all fantastic items.
Nobody is questioning your choice of handgun or caliber.
This forum in particular tends to be very evidence based and something like "intimidation factor" is simply not something that is, well, real, to be honest.
Here we believe that the important characteristic of your chosen handgun be that both it and you be proficient enough to put down an attacker as quickly as possible. Intimidation factor doesn't cut it. A .45 caliber JHP, however, does.
I think this just about sums up my point.
Paul, if I insulted you, I apologize. I was, at no time, attacking you or your choice of weapon. However, your statement on the intimidation factor of the .45 was the object of my attention. Based on the number of posts that were in my defense so to speak, I think you can see that the majority of members put no faith in the intimidation factor of any weapon. My comments were not personal.
I think this just about sums up my point.
Paul, if I insulted you, I apologize. I was, at no time, attacking you or your choice of weapon. However, your statement on the intimidation factor of the .45 was the object of my attention. Based on the number of posts that were in my defense so to speak, I think you can see that the majority of members put no faith in the intimidation factor of any weapon. My comments were not personal.
Apology accepted and if anyone is interested, I can get Clint's phone number or e-mail if you care to tell him he is full of it. Besure to detail your experience and expertise plus state your opinion. I am sure he will understand.
IT WAS AN OPINION! Attack data, attack lies but just state your opinion and agree to disagree..
You are right this is done.
Intimidation factor means absolutely nothing against someone that isn't willing to be intimidated. A few short months ago I pointed a suppressed 10.5" barrel AR directly at a person in an engagement. The result of that was that individual fired a .45 acp handgun directly at me.
I was not intimidated by his reaction anymore than he was by mine. I'm only putting this out here to prove the point that no one should ever rely on the old adage of "Racking a pump shotgun will scare someone away" or "Seeing that big hole in the end of a .45 will cause them to rethink their actions." It's very likely that's not how this is going to work out.
If an instructor is out there saying that this is the case. Then they are putting out incorrect information that could give someone the over confidence to get hurt or killed when the expected reaction doesn't develop. I wouldn't think that Clint Smith would be doing this.
If any moderators or site admin would like to verify the documentation of the incident that I referenced I'll be more than happy to provide them with a link to validate what I've written here.
A few short months ago I pointed a suppressed 10.5" barrel AR directly at a person in an engagement. The result of that was that individual fired a .45 acp handgun directly at me.
Glad you're alright.
"Seeing that big hole in the end of a .45 will cause them to rethink their actions." It's very likely that's not how this is going to work out.
I'm trying to conceive of a situation where the altercation/confrontation happens at a slow enough pace a close enough distance, enough light.... etc..... for someone to look at the bore long enough to determine that it is for sure a .45 and not a .40 or something else. I'm trying to think of a thug or lowlife type who even knows enough or thinks enough to look and make that determination.
I wouldn't count on anyone being intimidated by any weapon. A rational person might be intimidated but those are not usually the folks who we will be pointing guns at.
Long Tom Coffin
08-02-11, 19:07
I wouldn't count on anyone being intimidated by any weapon. A rational person might be intimidated but those are not usually the folks who we will be pointing guns at.
I don't either. I'm not going to be intimidated, so I won't count on them being intimidated, either. I've already had "Homey G Funk Fresh" point a gun at me once, and the only thing it did was piss me the hell off. That was the incident that convinced me to get my CCW when it became legal in MO, just a few months prior to the bill passage. I'd worked in enforcement prior to that so I was no stranger to guns or people with ill intentions. But it didn't frighten me, or intimidate me. It just made me madder than hell.
Very fortunately, this was one instance where the police were in the right place at the right time. A cruiser rolled up and homey did his best impression of Usain Bolt and beat tracks.
My carry piece is to be a hk p7m8 with at least 1 mag. Depending on my load out I will have on me 17 9mm rounds.
I'll either have on my ankle a jframe or g26.
Apology accepted and if anyone is interested, I can get Clint's phone number or e-mail if you care to tell him he is full of it. Besure to detail your experience and expertise plus state your opinion. I am sure he will understand.
Really? Contact info other than the TR generic email and phone? I'd be most interested in contacting Mr. Smith directly and asking him about this. I'd be happy to attach my CV with the email. I'm not some high speed operator, but I've made a few people mad here and there. I do not buy your "intimidation" argument one bit and attaching Mr. Smith's name to it to give it credence is a bit much for me. That's just my opinion.
I live in Albuquerque, NM, which still is not like living in St. Louis, but we have had our share of problems here also with gangs and such.
I currently carry an HK45CT in a Raven Concealment System holster. I carry the 8 round magazine in it and an additional 10 round magazine also. I work part-time in a gun store so I feel better carrying it all the time also.
I also carry an additional 10 round magazine in my vehicle also, just in case. It's a low down crying shame that the honest folks have to carry an arsenal because of some pablum-puking low lifes. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse, too.
Magic_Salad0892
08-03-11, 03:47
I'm trying to conceive of a situation where the altercation/confrontation happens at a slow enough pace a close enough distance, enough light.... etc..... for someone to look at the bore long enough to determine that it is for sure a .45 and not a .40 or something else. I'm trying to think of a thug or lowlife type who even knows enough or thinks enough to look and make that determination.
If your shirt doesn't say ''POLICE'' on it, and you point a gun at me, you probably won't be around long enough to know what caliber my weapon is. I don't know why you'd give the guy a chance to retaliate.
Really? Contact info other than the TR generic email and phone? I'd be most interested in contacting Mr. Smith directly and asking him about this. I'd be happy to attach my CV with the email. I'm not some high speed operator, but I've made a few people mad here and there. I do not buy your "intimidation" argument one bit and attaching Mr. Smith's name to it to give it credence is a bit much for me. That's just my opinion.
Sorry but the generic is all I have but he is very approachable. If you do call to discuss the quote,be sure to say:
"This a foolish, groundless and irresponsible reason for picking any weapon. This sounds much more like an ego massage."
It would be a good ice breaker and get the opinion discussion going.
That comment sure worked on me!
Good luck and I respect your opinion. If we did not allow opinions on this site, 99.9999999% of us woukd be speechless. I guess that goes for more things in this world. You have got to love freedom and the 1st amendment.
Have a good day!
Sorry but the generic is all I have but he is very approachable. If you do call to discuss the quote,be sure to say:
"This a foolish, groundless and irresponsible reason for picking any weapon. This sounds much more like an ego massage."
It would be a good ice breaker and get the opinion discussion going.
That comment sure worked on me!
Good luck and I respect your opinion. If we did not allow opinions on this site, 99.9999999% of us woukd be speechless. I guess that goes for more things in this world. You have got to love freedom and the 1st amendment.
Have a good day!
Check your PM's. I contacted Mr. Smith. LE who have taken classes with him can do that. You misunderstood what you heard him say. Stop proliferating it, sir.
Check your PM's. I contacted Mr. Smith. LE who have taken classes with him can do that. You misunderstood what you heard him say. Stop proliferating it, sir.
Check his TV appearances. the next time it comes on, I'll get the show and episode. you may be right but lets check.
I'll stand corrects if wrong. No problem.
Nothing in PM's.
R3V3LATIONS
08-03-11, 11:19
This post im about to make is 100% unoriginal and a compilation of things ive learned here after reading a while
-handgun bullets suck at stopping people
- there is no magic bullet, its shot placement that counts
- accuracy decreases exponentially in a stressfull situation
- reloads take up time from putting rounds on target, decreasing survivability
All of the above, lead me to my choice of a glock 17 loaded up for 18 outta the gate and at a minimum, 2 spare magezines loaded to capacity.
YMMV
I always feel pretty good with the 14 rounds in my Glock 32.
How many rounds are you willing to carry?
There are many times I throw a 5 shot J frame in a pocket for a trip to the local market. Usually, I have 10 reloads in speed strips on a belt pouch, but that has some limitations. Many carry the J frame for the "quick trip" with no extra ammo. Maybe that's fine for one threat, if you can hit him, but for three threats, maybe not so much.
When I carry my Glock 23 with one extra mag, I am pretty comfortable with 27 rounds of .40. I sometimes carry a SW 3913 and I am starting to believe I need to carry two mags since they only hold seven rounds.
A theory on "how many rounds is enough" only works IF you will routinely carry them. That's a decision you will make.
davidjinks
08-03-11, 16:55
The thread "Why not a 1911 or a revolver over a 15 round semi-auto?", has got me rethinking my choice for ccw. To the author of that thread.... thank you, it is a very valid question. To you experienced handgun carriers, how many rounds in a handgun do you consider, is enough? Is it 18, 15, 13, 12, 10......? That thread has me thinking that my Springfield 1911 with 8+1 capacity might just be an outdated choice. Don't get me wrong, my favorite handgun is this semi-custom Loaded model that I am almost surgical with at 10 yards and under: but I have M&P's in .40 caliber with 15+1 capacity. They have the Apex trigger and Ram and I'm almost as good with them as the 1911. I'm at the crossroads where the "Law of Diminishing Returns", is a must travel. Your comments and experience are welcomed, thanks.
First, my answer:
As many rounds as I can carry without my pants falling down. For me, that's usually 1-2 spare mags ranging anywhere from 7-34 rounds.
It's either a 1911 or Glock 17/19.
Now a little something to add:
Instead of worrying about how many rounds you have on you, why not worry about if you can effectively use those rounds on target?
[QUOTE=davidjinks;1065304]First, my answer:
As many rounds as I can carry without my pants falling down. For me, that's usually 1-2 spare mags ranging anywhere from 7-34 rounds.
It's either a 1911 or Glock 17/19.
Now a little something to add:
Instead of worrying about how many rounds you have on you, why not worry about if you can effectively use those rounds on target?[/QUOT
Excellent points; for me the question is what about multiple threats, which is certainly a possibility.
Nephrology
08-03-11, 17:24
Instead of worrying about how many rounds you have on you, why not worry about if you can effectively use those rounds on target?
That is a function of training and not so much of the handgun you carry. unless you happen to carry a 2" snubby .44 Mag Airweight....
First, my answer:
As many rounds as I can carry without my pants falling down. For me, that's usually 1-2 spare mags ranging anywhere from 7-34 rounds.
It's either a 1911 or Glock 17/19.
Now a little something to add:
Instead of worrying about how many rounds you have on you, why not worry about if you can effectively use those rounds on target?
I'm good with what I carry. I posted that from the start. I just wanted a feel for how many rounds members here are comfortable carrying and if I should change my current round count. I did, and have. Thanks to all that have posted logical and sound practices in my thread. I've been convinced to stop carrying the 1911 and go to my M&P 40 fs.
davidjinks
08-03-11, 17:27
[QUOTE=davidjinks;1065304]First, my answer:
As many rounds as I can carry without my pants falling down. For me, that's usually 1-2 spare mags ranging anywhere from 7-34 rounds.
It's either a 1911 or Glock 17/19.
Now a little something to add:
Instead of worrying about how many rounds you have on you, why not worry about if you can effectively use those rounds on target?[/QUOT
Excellent points; for me the question is what about multiple threats, which is certainly a possibility.
There's a possibility in anything you do in life. Hell, it's possible a meteor will fall on your head.
I totally understand where you're coming from. What I am saying though is…
Train as you fight, fight as you train.
If you only train by shooting at one target and never transition or reload, you'll never do it when the time comes. At least that's what the experts say.
[QUOTE=DWood;1065332]
There's a possibility in anything you do in life. Hell, it's possible a meteor will fall on your head.
I totally understand where you're coming from. What I am saying though is…
Train as you fight, fight as you train.
If you only train by shooting at one target and never transition or reload, you'll never do it when the time comes. At least that's what the experts say.
I think we are in agreement! ;)
davidjinks
08-03-11, 17:34
I'm good with what I carry. I posted that from the start. I just wanted a feel for how many rounds members here are comfortable carrying and if I should change my current round count. I did, and have. Thanks to all that have posted logical and sound practices in my thread. I've been convinced to stop carrying the 1911 and go to my M&P 40 fs.
Actually you stated that you're at a cross road in what you carry. Hence why I quoted your original post and gave an answer.
Anyway, have a good one.
Alaskapopo
08-03-11, 17:45
The thread "Why not a 1911 or a revolver over a 15 round semi-auto?", has got me rethinking my choice for ccw. To the author of that thread.... thank you, it is a very valid question. To you experienced handgun carriers, how many rounds in a handgun do you consider, is enough? Is it 18, 15, 13, 12, 10......? That thread has me thinking that my Springfield 1911 with 8+1 capacity might just be an outdated choice. Don't get me wrong, my favorite handgun is this semi-custom Loaded model that I am almost surgical with at 10 yards and under: but I have M&P's in .40 caliber with 15+1 capacity. They have the Apex trigger and Ram and I'm almost as good with them as the 1911. I'm at the crossroads where the "Law of Diminishing Returns", is a must travel. Your comments and experience are welcomed, thanks.
I used to think 9 was enough when I loved single stack 1911's. Then the more I did training and looked at videos of offices being shot the more I started to re think that. I know carry a Glock 17 on duty with 19 round mags. Off duty I carry my Glock 26 with 12 round mags. You can't miss fast enough to win but the reality is you miss and its nice to have plenty of rounds on tap before having to reload.
Pat
For me it is generally a G17 and 33 rds. Sometimes a G26 with G17 mag on deck for reload or what not and my thought process is this:
1. The pack mentality seems to be more the norm.
2. More often than not the perps are chemically fueled, requireing more "ballistic attention" no matter what you carry.
3. My wife can shoot the Glock platform much better than my 1911's and is more comfortable with it, so in the event that I am injured she can use it, although she better have her G19! Now I know this is a bit of a stretch but it is something I have considered.
4. I simply can not find a good concealment rig for the M249!:D
Just what works for me and my situation and my thought process.
Actually you stated that you're at a cross road in what you carry. Hence why I quoted your original post and gave an answer.
Anyway, have a good one.
"Instead of worrying about how many rounds you have on you, why not worry about if you can effectively use those rounds on target?"
And this was your quote I was referring to: I took it that you thought I shouldn't worry about how many rounds to carry as much as I should become proficient, which I answered in the initial post that I am a good shot. Thanks for your response though.
Lost River
08-03-11, 18:56
I think he's referring to your assertion that somehow the muzzle-on view of a .45 will strike fear and trepidation into the heart of your assailant in a way that perhaps a smaller caliber wouldn't. I've pointed 12ga. shotguns at suspects whose responses have ranged from urinating in their pants to flipping me off and walking away. I don't buy that a .45 has some ability to scare people off any more than a 9mm or a sharp stick.
There is a phenomenal amount of truth and experience in that reply. Every kid coming out of an academy should read and absorb that statement.
I'm good with what I carry. I posted that from the start. I just wanted a feel for how many rounds members here are comfortable carrying and if I should change my current round count. I did, and have. Thanks to all that have posted logical and sound practices in my thread. I've been convinced to stop carrying the 1911 and go to my M&P 40 fs.
I agree with what you said and have done the same. From 1976 until earlier this year I carried a Colt Series 70 45ACP and two mags. But it is a different world today and I switched to the Glock 22 or 23 plus two mags. Much more firepower, better reliability and not giving up much in caliber so I see it as a win-win situation.
Old dogs can learn new tricks!
Sorry but the generic is all I have but he is very approachable. If you do call to discuss the quote,be sure to say:
"This a foolish, groundless and irresponsible reason for picking any weapon. This sounds much more like an ego massage."
It would be a good ice breaker and get the opinion discussion going.
That comment sure worked on me!
Good luck and I respect your opinion. If we did not allow opinions on this site, 99.9999999% of us woukd be speechless. I guess that goes for more things in this world. You have got to love freedom and the 1st amendment.
Have a good day!
You can play the opinion and Clint Smith cards all you want, but in the end, you have continued to fail to back your claim with any reliable, measureable and repeatable data.
When I said "This is a foolish, groundless and irresponsible reason for picking any weapon. This sounds much more like an ego massage." it was directed at the fact that you claimed a .45 says "Stop! Go away!" more decisively and more convincingly than any thing else available. Had you finished your post with "Real men carry .45s." I would not have been surprised. Your stance on the issue has no bearing in fact and can no more be verified than the whereabouts of Jimmy Hoffa's body.
You continue to wave your opinion flag and rebuke any who dare criticize your opinion, all the while completely ignoring the fact that we too are only expressing our opinions as well. That being said, an opinion becomes increasingly less valuable when nothing observable contributes to its validity.
You can play the opinion and Clint Smith cards all you want, but in the end, you have continued to fail to back your claim with any reliable, measureable and repeatable data.
When I said "This is a foolish, groundless and irresponsible reason for picking any weapon. This sounds much more like an ego massage." it was directed at the fact that you claimed a .45 says "Stop! Go away!" more decisively and more convincingly than any thing else available. Had you finished your post with "Real men carry .45s." I would not have been surprised. Your stance on the issue has no bearing in fact and can no more be verified than the whereabouts of Jimmy Hoffa's body.
You continue to wave your opinion flag and rebuke any who dare criticize your opinion, all the while completely ignoring the fact that we too are only expressing our opinions as well. That being said, an opinion becomes increasingly less valuable when nothing observable contributes to its validity.
I don't think I have said anything after the origianal comment about weather the opinion statement was right or wrong. I have commented on the ability to state an opinion and do so without a nasty reply. I really don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees. I'm not out to prove, document or drive home my opinion. All I said is that I have a right to an opinion without being attacked personally. You can agree or disagree that is your choice and right but don't attack the person.
I have no more to say on this matter. Have at it and have fun.
QuietShootr
08-03-11, 21:06
There is a phenomenal amount of truth and experience in that reply. Every kid coming out of an academy should read and absorb that statement.
's true. I have stared down the barrel of a .45 1911 in the hand of someone who was ill-intentioned and while it looked huge, it pissed me off. Not saying I would have been less pissed if it were a smaller gun, but it definitely didn't make me shit my pants and run.
's true. I have stared down the barrel of a .45 1911 in the hand of someone who was ill-intentioned and while it looked huge, it pissed me off. Not saying I would have been less pissed if it were a smaller gun, but it definitely didn't make me shit my pants and run.
And then you have the other flip side to that. Your usually dealing with an idiot or someone who is out of their mind when you have to pull a pistol on someone. They really don't have the mindset to be scared or to even give a fu*k your pointing a pistol at them.
I agree with what you said and have done the same. From 1976 until earlier this year I carried a Colt Series 70 45ACP and two mags. But it is a different world today and I switched to the Glock 22 or 23 plus two mags. Much more firepower, better reliability and not giving up much in caliber so I see it as a win-win situation.
Old dogs can learn new tricks!
Awesome avatar btw! Yeah, I don't feel I have given up much in caliber going from .45acp to .40s&w at all. .45acp is and always will be my favorite caliber and a customized 1911 will always be my favorite pistol of all time. As reliable and as easy to shoot well my 1911 is....... it simply is out matched by the higher capacity pistols now. The M&P with an Apex trigger kit and usb, to me, is an updated, hi-cap, version of a polymer 1911. At least it's the closest thing I've found to a 1911 in polymer.
The only times I'll carry my SA Loaded is with the 10 round CMC Power+ mags, giving me 10+1 capacity. But I can all but forget carrying it that way concealed, and really I'm a big guy. The only time I can carry that way is at our family mountain cabin: where I practically carry openly anyway. The only threats there though are hogs, black bear, and stumbling across someones grow experiment. Of which this set-up is quite stellar for.
And then you have the other flip side to that. Your usually dealing with an idiot or someone who is out of their mind when you have to pull a pistol on someone. They really don't have the mindset to be scared or to even give a fu*k your pointing a pistol at them.
I don't care if a scare them, as long as i stop them.
I don't care if a scare them, as long as i stop them.
I agree. It would be great to do both though: scare and stop them but I wouldn't count on scaring them. Criminals these days are undeterred it seems. I'm convinced some of these assholes, in a sick way, want you to shoot them.
For duty, I'm pretty happy with my P220 and three extra magazines. I'd also be happy with a full sized double stacked 9mm. My sidearm is for the unexpected, and my rifle/shotgun for the expected.
Off duty I prefer my P228 9mm and one extra magazine for the more compact size and weight savings. For lower threat locations, and/or when I need a very low profile weapon such as running or wearing dress clothes(ankle holster), then my PPS 9mm or P232 .380 with one extra magazine makes for an ideal alternative. The extra magazine is primarily there to deal with possible magazine failures. I've pulled my weapon a couple of times off duty on suspects that I've arrested in the past. Practicality and working around the threat level environment helps you live life to its fullest without weighing you down with paranoia. Plan for "likely" scenarios as you leave your house and the environments in which you will be in.
Well, it seems work has really ****ed me, AGAIN. I'm the OP of this thread and I stated in the beginning that my job has moved to a shittier part of the City. Well, it gets better. They have decided to install metal detectors in the entrances of our building. That effectively eliminates me carrying any firearm or blade. I wasn't worried of an office shooting very much but my reason for starting this thread and getting this forums expertise was relating to the threats for when walking to and from the office to my vehicle, which is parked 7 blocks away. If I didn't have a new baby to support currently I would just quit. We could live on my wife's salary just the two of us but now with the baby and 1K a month daycare, it would be hard. ****, ****, ****! I am so pissed. Basically, the metal detectors make all of us employees easy victims. I've got to get another job. What sucks the most is this is a good job, I've had for 5 years ever since I graduated college, and now I've got to leave my career there.
I'm not over reacting or being a baby about not being able to ccw either. Co-workers/friends, some who live in some seedy areas to begin with even are scared to come and go at work now. The over all comment I get for the area is, "Raw", co-worker's put it. For those of you who know the area we switched from the Peachtree International Center to the old AJC building near Phillips Arena. Just Wednesday I walked with co-workers to lunch and we found someone's pocket book. This victim was obviously robbed as her inhalers, make-up, and even syringes, some full of stuff was strewn about the sidewalk on Spring Street.
Anybody know of a ceramic knife or something I can carry that will not set off metal detectors until I can get a new job? At least it would be something and better than nothing. I'm a big guy and good with my hands; but that's nothing with two or three thugs with weapons themselves. I hate this has happened to me and I just want to get out safely. My wife needs me and my daughter needs a father. Thanks for listening and for your advice.
Get you a Glock 7. Problem solved. They're pretty pricey though.
I would not leave your job over this until you can find a better one.
Pat
Pat, your absolutely right. I'm not going to leave until I find another job of at least 85% my current salary and benefits. I really hate this situation right now though. The best part is, the security they have, are three over weight women with radio's; running a x-ray scanner and the metal detector. Seriously, what are they going to do to a real threat? Leave it to the City to create a solution that hurts all of us. What should I expected though, the City is ran by retards. I would know because I work side by side with them.
When I first became a cop in '92 I was still in college and lived in campus. A handful if us approached the school and they installed lock boxes for us to secure our weapons in. It might not work but it is worth a try. I would look at the Kubaton and trying to get some training with one. While not ideal they can be nasty. The techniques would work well with a mini mag light or a large marker/highlighter. Cold Steel makes the Sharky marker for just this purpose. I have one it is very solid. A sock with a roll of quarters would be nasty too.
Would knives really not be allowed in the building?
All good points Usmcvet.They made me walk all the way back to my car Tuesday and would not allow me in the building because I had my Gerber EZ out with a 3 inch blade. I could get a Kubaton made of some kind of hardwood I could keep on my person. Thanks for the advice about the training with the Kubaton. I'm going to do that and the training sounds like fun. I like training anyways. I know I have seen hard ceramic blades too. I'll have to search a little harder for one. I'm plenty proficient with a blade already.
Alaskapopo
08-06-11, 13:34
Well, it seems work has really ****ed me, AGAIN. I'm the OP of this thread and I stated in the beginning that my job has moved to a shittier part of the City. Well, it gets better. They have decided to install metal detectors in the entrances of our building. That effectively eliminates me carrying any firearm or blade. I wasn't worried of an office shooting very much but my reason for starting this thread and getting this forums expertise was relating to the threats for when walking to and from the office to my vehicle, which is parked 7 blocks away. If I didn't have a new baby to support currently I would just quit. We could live on my wife's salary just the two of us but now with the baby and 1K a month daycare, it would be hard. ****, ****, ****! I am so pissed. Basically, the metal detectors make all of us employees easy victims. I've got to get another job. What sucks the most is this is a good job, I've had for 5 years ever since I graduated college, and now I've got to leave my career there.
I'm not over reacting or being a baby about not being able to ccw either. Co-workers/friends, some who live in some seedy areas to begin with even are scared to come and go at work now. The over all comment I get for the area is, "Raw", co-worker's put it. For those of you who know the area we switched from the Peachtree International Center to the old AJC building near Phillips Arena. Just Wednesday I walked with co-workers to lunch and we found someone's pocket book. This victim was obviously robbed as her inhalers, make-up, and even syringes, some full of stuff was strewn about the sidewalk on Spring Street.
Anybody know of a ceramic knife or something I can carry that will not set off metal detectors until I can get a new job? At least it would be something and better than nothing. I'm a big guy and good with my hands; but that's nothing with two or three thugs with weapons themselves. I hate this has happened to me and I just want to get out safely. My wife needs me and my daughter needs a father. Thanks for listening and for your advice.
I would not leave your job over this until you can find a better one.
Pat
When I first became a cop in '92 I was still in college and lived in campus. A handful if us approached the school and they installed lock boxes for us to secure our weapons in. It might not work but it is worth a try. I would look at the Kubaton and trying to get some training with one. While not ideal they can be nasty. The techniques would work well with a mini mag light or a large marker/highlighter. Cold Steel makes the Sharky marker for just this purpose. I have one it is very solid. A sock with a roll of quarters would be nasty too.
Would knives really not be allowed in the building?
Alpha Sierra
08-06-11, 18:14
Anybody know of a ceramic knife or something I can carry that will not set off metal detectors until I can get a new job?
Some very hard hardwoods can be used to make a nice, sharp shank. It may not work very well as a slashing blade but it will work pretty well as a dagger.
Is this a government building? If so you may be breaking the law bringing a weapon inside. Also is it just a metal detector. Th machines at our local court house will actually see what is inside a bag or your pockets. This would catch a wooden or plastic knife.
Cold Steel makes those plastic versions of their regular spikes and daggers. I don't know if they're completely plastic or nylon. It's possible they have some metal impregnated in them.
Newt Livesay makes a non metalic knife that I own. It's a neck knife so it's not that large. I've never tested it to see if it's truly invisible or not.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-06-11, 23:35
I have been carrying for nearly 20 years now. My guns, with a few brief exceptions, gotten smaller, lighter and lower in capacity. My first gun was a P7M13. I quickly traded it for a P7M8 (which I still have). My other guns were things like Sig 229s, Glock 17s, HK USPs, 1911s etc. And I still own guns like those. But these days I rarely carry anything other than my 7 shot Kahr. I have a spare mag but I usually leave it in the glove compartment. I understand I am in the minority in my "minimilism" but what I discovered was that when I commited myself to carrying full size/mid size guns like the Sig 229/Glock17/P2000 I found a lot of excuses to skip carrying the gun. Whenever I have carried a J frame or a Kahr I rarely found a reason to leave my gun behind.
It would be nice if the Glock 7 really existed!!:no:
Cold Steel makes those plastic versions of their regular spikes and daggers. I don't know if they're completely plastic or nylon. It's possible they have some metal impregnated in them.
Newt Livesay makes a non metalic knife that I own. It's a neck knife so it's not that large. I've never tested it to see if it's truly invisible or not.
Thank you very much!
Is this a government building? If so you may be breaking the law bringing a weapon inside. Also is it just a metal detector. Th machines at our local court house will actually see what is inside a bag or your pockets. This would catch a wooden or plastic knife.
It's a City owned building. I would carry it on me and just pass through a metal detector. It doesn't x-ray you when you walk through, just detects metal. There is an x-ray machine that you have to send your bag through that would see something but I would just carry the wooden or ceramic weapon on me.
lloydkristmas
08-08-11, 16:10
HK45C, 9rds of .45, or 11rds of .45 if attire permits the larger mag.
I might carry a spare mag during the winter, or if Im otherwise able to effectively conceal it, but that is rare.
If I'm jogging, or trying to 'deep conceal' in an area that might not favor CCW, its a Ruger LCP with 7 rds.
Spare mags for each are kept in the car, rarely on my person. It would be ideal to carry more spares, but my line of work and attire generally prohibits this.
Glock 17 with rmr and a couple of happy sticks should fill the bill for most situations:D
Sheepdog Tactical Gear
08-09-11, 17:40
The only time you can have too much ammo is if you're swimming...but that's coming from a military and Law Enforcement mindset.
From a normal average civilian carry point of view, I generally carry a Sig 239 in 40, 8 in the pistol, plus an extra mag. Are there instances that I've seen in my LE career where a civilian could have used more ammo...yes...does it happen often, no...but it does happen.
and it is quite rare for a civilian to have to HIT more than 1 guy, and since the advent of the autopistol, I know of no case wherein a US citizen has had to hit more than 2 men, to make the rest flee. It occasianally happens overseas, or to soldiers or cops, but since the last Native Americans went on the warpath and got subdued, basically, it's not been needed by civilians.
So, how much MISSING do you plan on doing, hmm? How much missing do you think an enemy is going to ALLOW you to do before he shoots you? I never worried a lick with a 5 shot .38 snub, never carried spare ammo for it. Don't carry a spare mag for the Keltec PF-9, either. I've shot many an A class Score in toplevel IPSC restricted competition and I'm a black belt. I've been known to wear body armor at times, too.
Without meaning to diminish your research or expertise, I'll respectfully suggest that an encounter in "real life" can differ considerably from match encounters. Adrenelin, fear, tunnel vision, can mitigate against deliberate target acquisition and shot placement.
Hence the advisibility by others, including myself, that there are some real advantages to be derived from utilizing a weapon with greater versus lower ammunition capacity-something like a Glock 19 is often seen as an ideal compromise.
While you may generally be right, I'd personally hate to be on the wrong side of your statistics situationally, especially if by a relatively simple choice of hardware with little to no additional weight consequence I could preclude difficulties (i.e., running out of ammunition at an inauspicious moment...) DocGKR's post on the Glock 19 is an excellent summation of this logic.
Best, Jon
carry a walking stick, and learn some hand to hand. Petite little women manage to get back and forth to work all day, everyday, their entire lives and never own a gun. Why can't you leave it in your car, hmm?
STFU! Get out of this thread if this is all you have to offer.
Alaskapopo
08-09-11, 18:34
and it is quite rare for a civilian to have to HIT more than 1 guy, and since the advent of the autopistol, I know of no case wherein a US citizen has had to hit more than 2 men, to make the rest flee. It occasianally happens overseas, or to soldiers or cops, but since the last Native Americans went on the warpath and got subdued, basically, it's not been needed by civilians.
So, how much MISSING do you plan on doing, hmm? How much missing do you think an enemy is going to ALLOW you to do before he shoots you? I never worried a lick with a 5 shot .38 snub, never carried spare ammo for it. Don't carry a spare mag for the Keltec PF-9, either. I've shot many an A class Score in toplevel IPSC restricted competition and I'm a black belt. I've been known to wear body armor at times, too.
You can never count on the average. And most criminals work in packs these days. Not sure where you got your stats.
I don't know of any IPSC restricted competitions. As for the rest are you super man as well?
Pat
SWATcop556
08-09-11, 18:38
Gently, you have a PM.
and it is quite rare for a civilian to have to HIT more than 1 guy, and since the advent of the autopistol, I know of no case wherein a US citizen has had to hit more than 2 men, to make the rest flee. It occasianally happens overseas, or to soldiers or cops, but since the last Native Americans went on the warpath and got subdued, basically, it's not been needed by civilians.
So, how much MISSING do you plan on doing, hmm? How much missing do you think an enemy is going to ALLOW you to do before he shoots you? I never worried a lick with a 5 shot .38 snub, never carried spare ammo for it. Don't carry a spare mag for the Keltec PF-9, either. I've shot many an A class Score in toplevel IPSC restricted competition and I'm a black belt. I've been known to wear body armor at times, too.
For all of those qualifications you seem to give some terrible advice.
You may not necessarily need all that ammo, but many times malfunctions can be traced to magazines. If one doesn't function for some strange reason (e.g. Mr. Murphy popping his head out at the most inopportune time) then having an additional magazine gives you an option to rectify the situation.
and it is quite rare for a civilian to have to HIT more than 1 guy, and since the advent of the autopistol, I know of no case wherein a US citizen has had to hit more than 2 men, to make the rest flee. It occasianally happens overseas, or to soldiers or cops, but since the last Native Americans went on the warpath and got subdued, basically, it's not been needed by civilians.
So, how much MISSING do you plan on doing, hmm? How much missing do you think an enemy is going to ALLOW you to do before he shoots you? I never worried a lick with a 5 shot .38 snub, never carried spare ammo for it. Don't carry a spare mag for the Keltec PF-9, either. I've shot many an A class Score in toplevel IPSC restricted competition and I'm a black belt. I've been known to wear body armor at times, too.
There are some people here who have taken their studies out of the theoretical and onto the two way range. Over-relying on statistics and probability in the selection of a weapon for self defense is a great way to become a statistic yourself. I, and others here, have seen too many people here and overseas soak up rounds and remain in the fight. Predicting how an attacker will react to being hit is like reading pidgeon entrails to predict the future. It can't be done. I've seen a home owner seriously injured (read paralyzed) by a burglar after the burglar was shot six times in the torso with a .357 Magnum. I stood guard over the body of a man who was stabbed to death by his wife's extramarital lover after shooting the man twice with a .223 bolt gun. The man who was shot died a half a block away trying to run back to his car.
I'm sure you're a great shot, but if you think for one second that you can equate your shooting games and the stress you feel there with the harsh reality of a life and death fight at close range, you are living in Wolkenkuckucksheim, sir. I've been in that nauseating and gutwrenching reality a little too much and I don't want to go back. I'll state this again, I have never wished to have less ammo in my gun when people are shooting at me.
Why would you wear bodyarmor and not carry an extra mag? :confused:
OP sorry about that you're right the high speed machine looks at bags, not people!
It's tempting to agree with this, but I can't. I just can't agree with it.
Why?...
Well... what if you shoot the best with a Jennings .380?... or a Beretta .25 ACP?
How about a Hi-Point C9?
Not suitable. I say pick the gun that fits your needs and train around/to it.
Don't pick the gun you ''shoot best'', ''or fits your hand the best'' and build it around your mission, that's retarded.
There is a guy I try to help that carries a Hi Point C9........ He thinks it's just as good as a Glock or Sig because it will kill you just a Glock or a Sig. So I agree with you 1000% you have to be able to Draw/Shoot/Move/ 10,000 other things best to defend yourself.
QuietShootr
08-09-11, 19:19
There are some people here who have taken their studies out of the theoretical and onto the two way range. Over-relying on statistics and probability in the selection of a weapon for self defense is a great way to become a statistic yourself. I, and others here, have seen too many people here and overseas soak up rounds and remain in the fight. Predicting how an attacker will react to being hit is like reading pidgeon entrails to predict the future. It can't be done. I've seen a home owner seriously injured (read paralyzed) by a burglar after the burglar was shot six times in the torso with a .357 Magnum. I stood guard over the body of a man who was stabbed to death by his wife's extramarital lover after shooting the man twice with a .223 bolt gun. The man who was shot died a half a block away trying to run back to his car.
I'm sure you're a great shot, but if you think for one second that you can equate your shooting games and the stress you feel there with the harsh reality of a life and death fight at close range, you are living in Wolkenkuckucksheim, sir. I've been in that nauseating and gutwrenching reality a little too much and I don't want to go back. I'll state this again, I have never wished to have less ammo in my gun when people are shooting at me.
Agreed on all counts. Irv, Troll Cleanup on Aisle 3....this guy has worn out his welcome.
Without meaning to diminish your research or expertise, I'll respectfully suggest that an encounter in "real life" can differ considerably from match encounters. Adrenelin, fear, tunnel vision, can mitigate against deliberate target acquisition and shot placement.
Hence the advisibility by others, including myself, that there are some real advantages to be derived from utilizing a weapon with greater versus lower ammunition capacity-something like a Glock 19 is often seen as an ideal compromise.
While you may generally be right, I'd personally hate to be on the wrong side of your statistics situationally, especially if by a relatively simple choice of hardware with little to no additional weight consequence I could preclude difficulties (i.e., running out of ammunition at an inauspicious moment...) DocGKR's post on the Glock 19 is an excellent summation of this logic.
Best, Jon
Agree.
Carry what you shoot best. If it is concealable and you are proficient with the reload, you are on the right track. If it is "low-capacity," carry more magazines. Single column magazines are no burden to carry. You can never miss enough times to win a gunfight. Carry what you shoot best.
I couldn't agree more.
There are some people here who have taken their studies out of the theoretical and onto the two way range. Over-relying on statistics and probability in the selection of a weapon for self defense is a great way to become a statistic yourself. I, and others here, have seen too many people here and overseas soak up rounds and remain in the fight. Predicting how an attacker will react to being hit is like reading pidgeon entrails to predict the future. It can't be done. I've seen a home owner seriously injured (read paralyzed) by a burglar after the burglar was shot six times in the torso with a .357 Magnum. I stood guard over the body of a man who was stabbed to death by his wife's extramarital lover after shooting the man twice with a .223 bolt gun. The man who was shot died a half a block away trying to run back to his car.
I'm sure you're a great shot, but if you think for one second that you can equate your shooting games and the stress you feel there with the harsh reality of a life and death fight at close range, you are living in Wolkenkuckucksheim, sir. I've been in that nauseating and gutwrenching reality a little too much and I don't want to go back. I'll state this again, I have never wished to have less ammo in my gun when people are shooting at me.
This is spot on.
The easiest way to become a statistic in todays world is to rely on statistics without realizeing what they are, which is to say that they nuggets of info that have been collected cataloged and put in their place AFTER the fact. They are or can be valuable info to have but only up to a point. The statistics of shootings in the 70's, 80's, and 90's have very little merit with what is happening right now in todays world.
In my opinion if one is to be really serious about protecting their SCU in todays world you have to look at the current trends. Those trends will obviously be different for Mil., LE etc. but the current trending that I see is that the lone wolf criminal is a dying breed, and the norm seems to be the pack mentality.
There is a reason why tactics in todays world are evolving the way that they are, and that is because the bad guys are evolving, their weapons, tactics, and thought processes are all evolving.
One should not carry a bucket full of ammo because plan on missing a lot, but because they might need to hit more than once.
I appreciate the compliment, however I think that's an insult to Kyle Defoor. :p
A lot of the posts here have gotten me wondering if people had just chosen a gun they like and shoehorned it into their loadout, and then tried to justify it somehow.
I see plenty of people in person, and on this board carrying a $1200 S&W revolver, or a $2000 1911, when a Glock 19, H&K P30, or S&W M&P would be a much better choice for the mission.
The guy who's post I quoted about switching from a S&W revolver to a Beretta 92 is IMHO one of the more memorable, recent, and best successes we've had here in a long time. And it proves my argument as being valid. IMHO.
A lot of people here are already ''in the know'' or came here, then hated the advice and left... Thankfully I was one of the ones who came here, listened to the advice with minimal resistance, and learned from it.
I also agree with Kyle's post about that, and I wish I had read it before I made my purchases.
I rarely post cause I choose to stay in my lane and learn as much as I can. I'll sometimes offer my opinion if it's on a subject I have hands on experience with.
When I first started shooting about 10 years ago, I was a total gear queer. I wanted the lastest and greatest but, never took the time to shoot regularly, let alone train dynamically. Fast forward to the last 3 years and I got really serious about being able to defend my family and myself in a time is life situation. Took a few local classes and took a class with EAG. I now train at least once a week and compete in matches twice a month and have been doing so for 3 years straight. If it weren't for this site in particular, I'd probably be over at TOS happy with just owning a gun. I still post there but, mainly in the hometown forum and KAC specifically but, I find it funny when some over there make comments about the members here. What I've learned over the years between the two sites is that the mindset is different here and that's in a good way. The software before hardware is a line I take to heart and I have all of you here to thank for that.
The reason I said all that is because as stated previously, mission does drive the gear and I went from concealed carrying a full size 1911 to a G17 with an extra mag. I also carry a Maxpedition Gunslinger pack (have three kids and one is two yrs old so it makes life easier) where I keep (4) more mags just in case. I like most hope to never be in a situation where I had to defend my life but, I sure as hell prepare that way mentally everday.
I have been carrying for nearly 20 years now. My guns, with a few brief exceptions, gotten smaller, lighter and lower in capacity. My first gun was a P7M13. I quickly traded it for a P7M8 (which I still have). My other guns were things like Sig 229s, Glock 17s, HK USPs, 1911s etc. And I still own guns like those. But these days I rarely carry anything other than my 7 shot Kahr. I have a spare mag but I usually leave it in the glove compartment. I understand I am in the minority in my "minimilism" but what I discovered was that when I commited myself to carrying full size/mid size guns like the Sig 229/Glock17/P2000 I found a lot of excuses to skip carrying the gun. Whenever I have carried a J frame or a Kahr I rarely found a reason to leave my gun behind.
Greg
When I carried a Kahr in a pocket holster I carried a Kramer pocket mag pouch. It worked well for me, kept the mag clean and of course doubled my round count.
Here is a link:
http://www.kramerleather.com/productDetail.cfm?productID=29&categoryID=31
You can never count on the average. And most criminals work in packs these days. Not sure where you got your stats.
I don't know of any IPSC restricted competitions. As for the rest are you super man as well?
Pat
Thank you Pat. As usual you bring sound logic to the game. When I was robbed it was by one bastard with a gun, another who blocked us in with his car with two or three others waiting in the car with God only knows what other weapons pointed at us. That was 16 years ago. It's only going to get worse, the criminal element.
My personal comfort preference number of rounds carrying a pistol before starting this thread was 8+1 with a reload in my SA Loaded 1911. I am very good with this pistol and I was using it exclusively in IDPA. But after listening to the knowledgeable experience and rational of others here at M4C, I've went to the M&P with 15+1 capacity and a 15 round reload. This is where my comfort level threshold stands now. I'm using the M&P in IDPA now and have a Milt Sparks CC II on the way for it to replace the M-tac it rides in now. I never thought I would stop carrying the 1911 but thankfully I wised up.
The 1911 is relegated to nightstand/range duty with a McCormick 10 round mag giving it 10+1 capacity. It's still my favorite piece, probably always will. The M&P's are what gets carried in the streets.
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