View Full Version : Flagging?
Not trying to sound like a dork but have the safety rules been changed? My Bud just got back from the sand box and came over to tell some tales. He noticed my G23 on my hip (where it lives) and told me he had'nt handled a Glock in a while. So I cleared it, double checked it and handed it to him. To my dismay he began to point it around the room (finger straight) flagging everyone with the muzzle. Let just say I was disappointed. He told me to grow up. I have trusted this guy and his training with my life before and never until now questioned his judgement. He stated in my unit it doesn't bother anyone. It's SOP. I was stunned. I'm not looking for a hug here. And I will continue to teach and be safe, But damn.:confused:
John_Wayne777
10-29-07, 18:56
So I cleared it, double checked it and handed it to him. To my dismay he began to point it around the room (finger straight) flagging everyone with the muzzle. Let just say I was disappointed. He told me to grow up.
Sometimes in the real world you don't always have the luxury of a nicely dressed line and range safety rules...that's true.
But if you aren't in one of those quickly developing dynamic situations, it's foolish to just go waving a weapon around.
He stated in my unit it doesn't bother anyone. It's SOP.
I'm not an expert on things military, but I have spent some time around HSLD types and I can assure you that pointing a weapon at them is an invitation to a serious dressing down at the very least.
If his unit has an SOP of pointing weapons at one another, then I'd start wondering about the competence of his unit and it's command structure. I don't know of a single branch of the service that has a policy saying that pointing weapons at people is no big deal.
Don Robison
10-29-07, 19:06
He stated in my unit it doesn't bother anyone. It's SOP.
I don;t know or care what unit he's in, but I know in the unit I'm in he'd be walking funny with it jammed up his a$$. We recognize the fact the flagging can and does happen in the heat of the moment, but do everything we can to minimize it and don't tolerate it for the sake of "funnin".
By SOP I didn't mean it was an order or policy, He was saying "It's no big deal" I truly think this damaged our friendship. But I don't compromise on safety. And I wear a vest when teaching recruits or re-certing vets. I didn't think to wear it in the living room. I do understand rapidly unfolding dynamic situations, this was a living room full of friends. In my first Academy the instructor wanted us to run scenarios with real weapons.(They're empty, right?) I refused and was almost washed out. I got to point my finger and say bang. Three years after I graduated, a recruit lost 6" of femur due to a .45-230gr ball. (They're empty, right?) That instructor was fired and I believe sued civilly. The recruit never got to put on the uniform. What a waste. I asked my bud, to give me a good reason why you should point even an empty gun at a person, is there any benefit at all? It will probably be a very long time before I ever feel comfortable handing a peice over to someone again. But this guy was former LE, we worked together, I trusted him. My fault. Sorry for the rant but I'm just dissapointed right now. Thanks for the replies.
Nope, he's wrong. When you have lots of people living in close quarters with lots of weapons it becomes all the more important to push the Four Rules, because familiarity breeds contempt. In 2005, Marines in my company had an ND w/ a Mk 19, two M16A4 ND's AND a 240G ND directly over my head (it pays to be a height waiver). This was over a seven month period. Either his command climate sucked or he was talking out his rear end.
You did the right thing, in spite of the personal consequences. The rare occasions I shoot with my Dad it's also an issue. it's embarassing to correct the man who taught me gun safety, but he has become lax in his later years. Hurt feelings are a small price to pay for not having a bullet hole through something important.
Jay Cunningham
10-30-07, 13:32
In the situation you described, he's wrong. People inadvertantly flag each other sometimes during dynamic training but observing the other three rules and trying to minimize the flagging keep people honest.
In a non-dynamic situation like you described, it's inexcusable and simply incorrect gunhandling.
Failure2Stop
10-30-07, 13:47
I cannot stand someone flagging me. I ususally include in my safety brief something to the effect of; I won't point a gun at you unless you point one at me, and if you point one at me I will definately point one at you.
Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot. I take that very seriously, any military member more advanced than a cook should also.
It is a mark of a professional to always be aware of where he is about to project lethal force. It is only a fool that would scorn that knowledge, or approach it with contempt.
Even during dynamic training it is unacceptable to point a weapon at a team-member. During real operations people get hit and muscles involuntarily convulse, that is a fact of a gunfight. If your weapon just happens to be pointing at my junk when your SAPI sucks a 7.62X39, I wind up with a messy vasectomy. No thanks.
Your buddy was wrong, and if he did that in my presence, I would leave. If he did it in my house, well, you all heard the safety brief. . .
SilverEagle
10-30-07, 14:01
... But this guy was former LE, we worked together, I trusted him.
Unfortunately in my experience it is those who are expected to have the highest level of awareness and standards who fall the farthest and hardest. See also the (internet viral video) of the DEA agent shooting himself in front of a room full of children and parents and you will see my case in point.
As a retailer of firearms I have unfortunately come to expect that [unloaded] weapons will be pointed at me. I take action and advise my customers; but at the same time I have found a nice and calm voice to do this. When the "Flagging" effects another individual, customer or employee, I must take a much harder voice. The biggest problem I have found is the damned if you do, damned if you don't catch 22.
Working in a civilian range environment I have constantly over heard conversations between seasoned civilians and law enforcement peoples saying "I try not to shoot there because all of the other people on the range scare me." On the flip side, if I go and chastise or correct a "customer" they unfailingly post on some local board that our store is "anti-civilian", "anti-LE" or never "gives you a second to breath" on the range. I have always made the effort to keep my staff enforcing safe gun handling but we are not omnipresent; some times it takes a concerned spectator.
I propose a new code: "Four Rules!"
Instead of jumping down peoples necks and yelling and screaming at people who probably didn't even realize they were doing something wrong, lets say "Four Rules!" and help them to understand what they did wrong. Some times a good, calm, dressing down can make a more permanent impression than a stream of cursing. Once you have directed them to point the weapon down range, RE-inform them of the basic weapon handling rules.
Oh, and your friend who was swinging his pistol around and flagging people was TOTALLY wrong.
Sounds like a case of familiarity breeding contempt.
During my "sandbox fun" Joe had zero muzzle awareness. I SAW two traumatic limb near-amputations from M16A2 NDs.
Bottom Line, "Joe" is a ****ing idiot who doesn't know his head from his ass when it comes to his weapon. I'm an Army guy, and I haven't met more than a few Army guys who do.
IROCZ,
What service is your buddy in? I doubt a Marine or an Army Infantryman who's "been there" will do anything like that! Actually, it should be second nature to always point your weapon at a safe direction. My brain will stop my hands way before the muzzel of my weapon start to drift towards a friendly body.
4 Weapons safety rules:
1. Treat every weapon as if it's loaded
2. Never point the weapon at anything you don't intent to shoot
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you're ready to fire
4. Keep your weapon on safe until you're ready to fire
Rules to live by!
I'm sorry to say either your buddy spent his deployment sitting behind a desk, or he's just plain stupid!
IOC
ThirdWatcher
10-31-07, 19:03
Frankly, I doubt if your friend speaks for his unit, let alone his branch of the military.
You are absolutely right, there is NO excuse for pointing a weapon at anyone, unless you are dealing with a criminal, and even then no longer than is necessary.
As for training with "empty" weapons, that's what red guns are for. I don't know of anyone who uses simunitions in their duty weapons, either.
An ND in training sounds to me like an excellent way to get indicted.
Joseywales
10-31-07, 20:17
Not trying to sound like a dork but have the safety rules been changed? My Bud just got back from the sand box and came over to tell some tales. He noticed my G23 on my hip (where it lives) and told me he had'nt handled a Glock in a while.
So I cleared it, double checked it and handed it to him.
To my dismay he began to point it around the room (finger straight) flagging everyone with the muzzle. Let just say I was disappointed. He told me to grow up. I have trusted this guy and his training with my life before and never until now questioned his judgement. :
OK, so let's re-cap:
He came over. I am assuming that it is your house we are talking about and not a gun shop or gun range where security and loaded weapons are an issue.
You made sure in front of him that the gun was completely unloaded.
The muzzle crossed everyone in the room. Are we talking about you, you and one other person?
I understand that in most situations this is considered unsafe and possibly a death threat. But if we are talking a private meeting where everyone knows it is unloaded, let us not get too carried away with protocol.
Now if he was purposely pointing at people and pulling the trigger, I might have taken the gun and bitch slapped him.....;)
But if someone just happened to walk in the path of the gun, shame on them.
Jay Cunningham
10-31-07, 21:18
When someone clears a firearm and hands it to me I clear it again myself. And I certainly don't cover anybody with the muzzle.
Frankly, I doubt if your friend speaks for his unit, let alone his branch of the military.
I've never "NOT" been swept by a muzzle in public by Army guys. Muzzle sweeping, in the Army at least, is considered to be "no big deal" and those who bring it up are labelled as "pussies." The ****ing Army and the soldiers in it are 90% ignorant of small arms handling and rifle maintenance. In my year or so in Iraq, I routinely had LOADED WEAPONS pointed at my mid-section while entering the ECPs.
Stars and Stripes has a Letter to the Editor "war" going on right now about muzzle direction, and frankly, the asshats are "winning." They've decided that the backwards-facing holsters are "okay" because pistols in holsters are "safe". (No comment from them on NDs while holstering their "Don Johnson" rig, or when the completely and utterly exposed trigger gets pulled by the tent cordage or camo net it gets snagged in) They've also decided that it's "too inconvenient" to keep your muzzle pointing in a safe direction at all time.
His "friend" sounds just like 99.9% of Army personnel I've worked with downrange, and work with, today. To be sure, the .1% include a high ratio of "shooter-stabbers", which is to be expected. I know our military has had a "halo" put on them by the civilians, but there is a large proportion of ignorant weapons crap in the Army, if you ask me.
Erick Gelhaus
11-01-07, 02:43
Not going to argue with anyone, as they likely have a valid basis for their views.
It was NOT acceptable in my plt, co or Bn. NDs were not addressed as they should have been but flagging was NOT kosher. On or Off the FOB.
They've decided that the backwards-facing holsters are "okay" because pistols in holsters are "safe". (No comment from them on NDs while holstering their "Don Johnson" rig, or when the completely and utterly exposed trigger gets pulled by the tent cordage or camo net it gets snagged in) I know our military has had a "halo" put on them by the civilians, but there is a large proportion of ignorant weapons crap in the Army, if you ask me.
I have stared down many a muzzle in staff meetings, debriefs and church services because of these taticool horizontal rigs. The only good thing I can say about them is that the pistols they carried were NEVER LOADED IN SEVEN MONTHS, because the owners never left the FOB.
I know our military has had a "halo" put on them by the civilians, but there is a large proportion of ignorant weapons crap in the Army, if you ask me.
+1 It is amazing how every malingering nose picker is a "hero" the second their boots touch Iraqi sand! We throw that word around way to freely.
As already mentioned there are a fair number of soldiers and even some Marines who still need an "attitude adjustment" with regards to muzzle awareness. That doesn't mean there aren't times during dynamic situations where some one might get muzzled, but they should be rare and avoid as much as possible. I won't even address NDs which are like the plague over there. The command "solution" seems to be disarm every one inside the wire and hammer the offender. As that is easier than providing better firearms training for all personnel, but when the leadership only cares to know more about which golf club to choose for a specific swing rather than how to fight with small arms it will continue to be that way. Way too few real warriors wearing the uniform.
Regarding the Four Firearm Safety Rules previously posted and in use by the Marine Corps.
4 Weapons safety rules:
1. Treat every weapon as if it's loaded
2. Never point the weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you're ready to fire
4. Keep your weapon on safe until you're ready to fire
These are all well and good, but unfortunately they were bastardized from the real Four Firearm Safety Rules as codified by LtCol Jeff Cooper, Father of the Modern Technique and founder of Gunsite. Col Cooper was a master of the English language and understood the dangers of playing with semantics (as did our Founding Fathers ie. 2d Amendment). Thus, he placed a great deal of thought in to the proper wording of each rule so that it could be properly understood. Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.
1. All guns are always loaded.
(Not "as if" but "are always"! How many times have we heard about some shooting themselves or someone else with an "unloaded" firearm.)
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
(This rule applies to fighting as well as to daily handling. If you are not willing to take a human life, do not cover a person with the muzzle. This rule also applies to your own person. Do not allow the muzzle to cover your extremities. This practice is unsound, both procedurally and tactically. )
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until your sights are on target
(Rule III is violated most anytime the uneducated person handles a firearm. Never stand or walk around with your finger on the trigger. It is unprofessional and dangerous. Never fire a shot unless the sights are superimposed on the target and you have made a conscious decision to fire. Firing an unaligned firearm in a fight gains nothing.)
4. Be sure of your target
(Know what it is, what is in line with it, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything you have not positively identified. Be aware of your surroundings, whether on the range or in a fight. Do not assume anything. Know what you are doing.)
It has been observed that you can most often get away with violating one of rules without some thing bad happening, but when you violate two or more of the rules then some thing bad can and probably will happen. Thus, it is best to not violate any of the rules.
S/F
John_Wayne777
11-01-07, 07:22
It has been observed that you can most often get away with violating one of rules without some thing bad happening, but when you violate two or more of the rules then some thing bad can and probably will happen. Thus, it is best to not violate any of the rules.
S/F
Bingo.
Most on this site don't need to be told this, but layering safety procedures is exactly how you keep from putting a round into somebody during one of those high stress dynamic situations.
Jay Cunningham
11-01-07, 07:45
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until your sights are on target
(Rule III is violated most anytime the uneducated person handles a firearm. Never stand or walk around with your finger on the trigger. It is unprofessional and dangerous. Never fire a shot unless the sights are superimposed on the target and you have made a conscious decision to fire. Firing an unaligned firearm in a fight gains nothing.)
FJB,
I agree with everything that you've posted but, like Cooper and Farnam both profess, words do mean things. I have been using the following as my own Rule 3:
Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
I am by no means an advocate for point shooting, but there are times that a draw and shoot from retention might be necessary - obviously no sights are aligned during this event.
Robb Jensen
11-01-07, 08:06
The 'finger on the trigger' rule reminds me of a compliment that I got this past weekend at a state level IDPA match. One of the SOs (safety officers) asked me if I and one of my teammates 'had formal training together' or 'trained together a lot', I asked why? He said that both my teammate are completely off of the trigger before and after engaging a target even when there are multiple targets in a room, he said I come completely off the trigger even when transitioning between different targets (even close and fast ones) and said that our movements, reloads etc looked identical. He said that he hadn't noticed that with the other shooters that day.
It just goes to show that when good training is done to the point of being a habit........it is a very good thing.
Safety is a habit. It can also be contagious.
Whenever handed a gun I make an obvious and deliberate check of it's status. The lower the common denominator at the location, the more obvious. This is usually met with a "don't worry it's unloaded", an incredulous look, inquries on how to do that and why, or a nod from the like-minded.
I shop at a certain sporting goods retailer often and see the same employees. While a new one was helping me one day, I did a check of what I was handed, and the kid asked about it. Another employee passed by and told him, "he always does that." Folks notice. Perhaps they'll "get it" one day.
Some of the worst firearms safety I've seen has been with military and LE, evidenced by the rate at which we seem to shoot our property, ourselves, and each other.
Erick Gelhaus
11-01-07, 13:32
I have been using the following as my own Rule 3:
Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
I am by no means an advocate for point shooting, but there are times that a draw and shoot from retention might be necessary - obviously no sights are aligned during this event.
Scott Reitz addressed this. His take was that when shooting from retention you have aligned your sights - through your skeleton - just not visually. Therefore, you can stay with the original verbage.
It may be semantics, but it works.
IROCZ,
What service is your buddy in? I doubt a Marine or an Army Infantryman who's "been there" will do anything like that! Actually, it should be second nature to always point your weapon at a safe direction. My brain will stop my hands way before the muzzel of my weapon start to drift towards a friendly body.
4 Weapons safety rules:
1. Treat every weapon as if it's loaded
2. Never point the weapon at anything you don't intent to shoot
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you're ready to fire
4. Keep your weapon on safe until you're ready to fire
Rules to live by!
I'm sorry to say either your buddy spent his deployment sitting behind a desk, or he's just plain stupid!
IOC
He is an ammo tech, he convoy's ammo and fuel in country. I saw the videos. Come to think of it there was no muzzle disipline in the vid's either! In law enforcement we call that a clue. He was well trained when he left. He did mention his Miami Classic holster, yeah way cool. I have talked to him since this incident. He's too John Wayne about about it.(no offense to the Duke!) And yup, I'm a sissey. Oh well I do know better.
...... He said that both my teammate are completely off of the trigger before and after engaging a target ....... He said that he hadn't noticed that with the other shooters that day.
It just goes to show that when good training is done to the point of being a habit........it is a very good thing.
Several years after the FATS trainers came out, I had a chance to train on one for a few hours with one of the local PDs. When finished, the RO (I guess you'd still call him that:) came over and asked about my training. (I'm a civilian.) I told him and then asked why he had inquired. He said that everytime another officer crossed (on the FATS screen) in front of me - I lowered or diverted my weapon so as to avoid flagging him. He, too, commented on my trigger discipline when not on target. He finished by saying that he rarely saw the LEOs doing that - at least not the ones he'd come in contact with. (This was a travelling FATS unit that went from one PD to another around the country.) I wonder if it's, in part, because they didn't perceive the training (and therefore the other officer) as being "real"????
I guess it all goes back to maintaining the correct mindset while training!!!!!
He is an ammo tech, he convoy's ammo and fuel in country. I saw the videos. Come to think of it there was no muzzle disipline in the vid's either! In law enforcement we call that a clue. He was well trained when he left. He did mention his Miami Classic holster, yeah way cool. I have talked to him since this incident. He's too John Wayne about about it.(no offense to the Duke!) And yup, I'm a sissey. Oh well I do know better.
No offense to you, but your friend is an idiot and his NCOs are worthless...
From my experience, grunts are more likely to push the limits (ie shooting in close proximity to each other, etc. ), non grunts are more likely to give you the "It's Not Loaded!" excuse (of course their demeanor changes completely when you mention something about a Strider and their throat...it gets the point across-no pun intended)
KintlaLake
11-02-07, 07:41
I've been keeping up with this thread, and from the outset I've been reminded about a conversation my wife and I had about disciplining our teenage spawns.
At the dinner table one evening, Spawn #1 let out an Olympic-class belch. My wife turned to Spawn #1 and scolded, "That's disgusting!"
Both spawns start giggling. Spawn #2 summoned-up a counter-belch. More giggling.
Later, I suggested to my wife that teenagers might just want to be "disgusting," or at least don't care, and that she'd simply reinforced the behavior.
From then on, for behavior we want to stop, we use the word, "unacceptable." Even a teenager knows what that means. It works.
I'm far from perfect when it comes to gun-handling protocols, but patently unsafe or cavalier conduct in my presence is unacceptable. The last time I was around a guy who "flagged" a friend of mine, that friend told the offending party, "Hey, that's crazy!"
The guy just grinned, wide-eyed. It was exactly what he wanted to hear.
We know that flagging (etc.) is crazy, but we're all better served if we say what we mean -- it's unacceptable, period.
Business_Casual
11-02-07, 09:20
Agreed, and in certain circles "unprofessional" would have an impact as well.
M_P
Jay Cunningham
11-02-07, 09:21
Scott Reitz addressed this. His take was that when shooting from retention you have aligned your sights - through your skeleton - just not visually. Therefore, you can stay with the original verbage.
It may be semantics, but it works.
Roger that.
Scott Reitz addressed this. His take was that when shooting from retention you have aligned your sights - through your skeleton - just not visually. Therefore, you can stay with the original verbage.
It may be semantics, but it works.
Erick,
As we both come from the same schools, literally and figuratively, we are in complete agreement.
S/F
SilverEagle
11-03-07, 07:31
From then on, for behavior we want to stop, we use the word, "unacceptable." Even a teenager knows what that means.
I completely and totally agree. Tell 'them' what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. Simple instructions, simple thoughts, easy compliance.
I have never been in the military so I can't comment on what is or is not considered acceptable in that enviorment. Others here would know much more than I on that aspect. I would have assumed the same basic safetly rules would apply. I do know that for me that would be totally unacceptable. Since childhood it has been drilled into me that you do not point a gun at anything, loaded or not, you are not prepared to shoot and always maintain muzzle awareness. I have tried to also instill these into my chidren. Even the 10 year olds know this.
Several times I have had a firearm inadvertently pointed at me, usually in a hunting situation. Several good friends of mine I will no longer hunt or shoot with because of this. One time is too many IMHO. Live is short enough.
I grew up in rural Mississippi, which even today remains a gun culture. Gun safety was drummed into our heads. A fool like you describe would have been excluded from any group I belonged to. Also, somebody would have been slapped, if it continued past a warning.
I'm a senior citizen and think that some of this hooey is generational in that many people today resist following directions. So what happens? They say **** you and in the case of the military, they flag as a protest. Maybe adhering to weapon safety rules ain't cool. What do yo think?
Anyway, such bs in my prescence results in a hasty exit.
Williejc:(
one way I get past the "treat every gun as it is loaded" is I hand of a gun with it's bolt or slide locked open, and expect it handed back the same way.I also when handing off one will show the chamber empty.
John_Wayne777
11-05-07, 08:47
one way I get past the "treat every gun as it is loaded" is I hand of a gun with it's bolt or slide locked open, and expect it handed back the same way.I also when handing off one will show the chamber empty.
That's what I consider basic manners when handling a firearm. Handing someone a firearm with a closed action is about as smart as handing them a knife with the sharp end aimed at them.
He is an ammo tech, he convoy's ammo and fuel in country. I saw the videos. Come to think of it there was no muzzle disipline in the vid's either! In law enforcement we call that a clue. He was well trained when he left. He did mention his Miami Classic holster, yeah way cool. I have talked to him since this incident. He's too John Wayne about about it.(no offense to the Duke!) And yup, I'm a sissey. Oh well I do know better.
IROCZ, being safe is not being a "Sissey." It takes moral courage to correct a close friend but rest assure you were doing the right thing before that buddy of yours blow his own or someone else's brains out!
A serviceman is a professional, not bush league! I find it disturbing that your buddy who's in the service acting absolutely reckless! The more seasoned a combat veteran is, the more seriouse he is with weapon safety. I'll let you be the judge on your buddy's "combat experience."
IOC
recon by fire
11-12-07, 00:49
When soldiers spend a year or more with their rifle within arms reach 27/7, they can pick up bad habits. I am an army weapons instructor and I teach in my classes not to point the weapon at anything unless you want to shoot it. At the SRM range (reflexive fire) where flagging is an issue, we do dry runs until everyone is good to go as far as not flagging. If someone continues to flag their buddy, then they will not participate in the live fire exercise. They will be pulled from the range and given remedial training. But there are many soldiers that have not been taught the importance of muzzle awareness.
I guess it is a different Army now. It was never acceptable years ago with unloaded weapons.
I had a 6'7" instructor who literally came over and kicked me in my ass for flagging him. This was about 10 yrs ago, I've never forgotten it.
I punched a guy in the chest for flagging me once while joking around. He was actually a friend of mine. Pointing a gun at someone it is NO FRIKIN JOKE!
Imagine trying to live with the fact that you blew your friends brains all over the wall because you decided to act like a douche.
KintlaLake
11-29-07, 05:27
Horseplay, ignoring safety procedures led to Springfield soldier's death in Afghanistan (http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/11/28/spring.html)
Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:46 AM
FORT DRUM, N.Y. (AP) — Two 10th Mountain Division soldiers disregarded weapons safety procedures and were engaged in horseplay when one of them was accidentally shot and killed last April in Afghanistan, according to Army court martial records.
Spc. Xavier Tafoya pleaded guilty in August to manslaughter and aggravated assault in the April 28 shooting death of Cpl. Jeremy Greene, 24, of Springfield, Ohio. Tafoya was dishonorably discharged and is serving two years in prison. Fort Drum spokesman Ben Abel could not immediately provide an age or hometown for Tafoya.
The Army had said Greene was killed in an accident while cleaning his M-249 squad automatic weapon. But court-martial records show Green died after a recurring prank that violated Army weapons protocol, the Watertown Daily Times reported Wednesday.
In between combat missions, the two soldiers engaged in a game of “made you look,” that began with switching the “safe” position to the “fire” position on each other's weapons and eventually escalated into putting live rounds in each other's guns, according to military records obtained by the newspaper through a Freedom of Information request.
On April 28, as part of the running joke, Greene inserted two rounds of 5.56 mm ammunition into Tafoya's weapon while he was out of the building, court documents said.
When Tafoya returned to the barracks, he violated safety procedures by failing to ensure that his weapon was unloaded, court documents said. While exchanging banter, Tafoya switched his weapon into “fire” mode, pointed it at Greene, and pulled the trigger.
Greene was hit once in the neck and once in the chest. He died while en route to a medical facility. Another soldier suffered two leg wounds from the bullets that first hit Greene.
# # #
That is a tradgedy. Imagine how the parents must feel - not only did their son die a violent death, but his life was lost over a stupid game. I wonder where his NCO's were.
I know of a similar incident where Marines were playing "fast draw" w/ their M9's. The game resulted in a round being fired into one Marine, exiting him and the wall, entering another living quarters, a locker, and stopping in a shoe box a few inches from the head of a Marine lying in the rack asleep. One fatality, one very fortunate Marine.
Nathan_Bell
11-29-07, 08:39
That is a tradgedy. Imagine how the parents must feel - not only did their son die a violent death, but his life was lost over a stupid game. I wonder where his NCO's were.
I know of a similar incident where Marines were playing "fast draw" w/ their M9's. The game resulted in a round being fired into one Marine, exiting him and the wall, entering another living quarters, a locker, and stopping in a shoe box a few inches from the head of a Marine lying in the rack asleep. One fatality, one very fortunate Marine.
For those of you who were/are combat arms, what will / should happen to the NCO's who screwed up on this?
HolyRoller
11-29-07, 10:03
Last week at end of shift, three other deputies came to my POV so one of them could look at a Remington 700P LTR I might want to sell. This was 1900 local time and dark outside, in the downtown area of our county seat. He did check clear, but then, to look through the scope, he pointed it at the only ambient lights available, which would be the storefronts on the other side of the street! Yes, there was plenty of vehicular traffic on the street!
I was in between a heart attack and a stroke and all I could say was "good gracious son!" but the other deputies thought it was funny. Nobody saw us, thank the Lord. Good thing we didn't have to go get an armed mental subject out of his house like we thought we were going to have to do. If that kind of op ever comes up again, I'll make sure I'm the LAST guy in the stack.
SilverEagle
11-29-07, 10:37
[QUOTE=...Good thing we didn't have to go get an armed mental subject out of his house like we thought we were going to have to do...[/QUOTE]
I am a little confused. You where out at a call for "an armed mental subject " with your personal vehicle and rifle and got called off, or you thought the actions you where taking as a group would cause a not-quite-so-paranoid citizen to think you where pointing the rifle at them; and set his anti- "new world order" plan into action? (Isn't that sorta' what happened at Ruby Ridge?) Other than proclaiming your surprise did you correct this other officer? Did they understand that if a civilian had done the same thing you probably would have shot them from across the street with your rifle? Are you advocating that law enforcement are above the law or that he has lost perspective of what is reasonable?
I may be taking things to an unreasonable extreme but unintended consequences can lead to huge problems...
Law enforcement is naturally a gun culture, I've been in several back room conversations with cops talking about buying, selling and trading personal firearms but it was always secluded from public view; for fear of exactly what you described.
As a basic rule I pick and choose those people I "trust" with firearms by closely watching there actions. Until you have proven that you have better handling skills than I do, I'm not going to take ANY actions for granted. As far as firearms handling is concerned, I assume your an idiot until proven otherwise; this affords me the perspective needed to insure I don't allow you to do something really stupid.
nathan,
If you read my first post I detail the ND's that happened to Marines trained an lead by yours truly. We trained extensively in crew served weapons prior to deploying AND conducted live fire ranges every other week (on crew serves - we were shooting pretty much every week) and we still had ND's due to incorrect employment, usually when locking and loading when exiting the FOB. SOP was to point the weapon at the berm, which is a good thing if something goes wrong.
We still had a problem. What I would expect of NCO's and myself is to exemplify proper procedures and set a good climate for operational safety. NCOs can't watch the troops every minute, but they can create the atmosphere that the troops live in.
W/ the issue of the shooting in Afghanistan we have something different. Fortunately no one was hurt by the ND's we experienced and the rounds don't know the difference - so I'm not trying to be holier than thou. But it is one thing to repeat something hundredss of times and screw up. It is another thing when troops are comfortable playing games that break regualtions and the rule of common sense.
If I was doing the prelim investigation I would see how often the NCOs were around and what there day to day interaction w/ their subordinates was like. If they were playing these games, I would deduce that their leadership is either weak, lackadaisical or both. They were comfortable doing something stupid and dangerous. A good NCO will control the situation w/ a good relationship (where they want to do the right thing to not let him down) or terror, or both.
Long winded answer, but there you are.
HolyRoller
11-29-07, 19:59
I am a little confused. You where out at a call for "an armed mental subject " with your personal vehicle and rifle and got called off, or you thought the actions you where taking as a group would cause a not-quite-so-paranoid citizen to think you where pointing the rifle at them; and set his anti- "new world order" plan into action? (Isn't that sorta' what happened at Ruby Ridge?) Other than proclaiming your surprise did you correct this other officer? Did they understand that if a civilian had done the same thing you probably would have shot them from across the street with your rifle? Are you advocating that law enforcement are above the law or that he has lost perspective of what is reasonable?
Oh dear, I've been a bad communicator again. First, I didn't make it clear that the guy lived in a small town 15 miles away from the county seat, and no rifles were ever pointed at him, and we didn't even go anywhere near his town. The timeline went like this on the day in question:
About 1000: Being the day after Thanksgiving, there's not much to do and we're hanging around in Central (others may call it a 911 center, radio room, dispatch) gossiping with the two dispatchers on duty. At this point, the shift sergeant tells us we may have to go get a mental subject who has involuntary commitment papers that will expire by about the end of the shift. Sarge advises that this guy is an avid hunter (I didn't know it was avid season, I thought it was deer season) and has highpower rifles in the house, so Sarge will talk to the guy's significant other and see if she can talk him into just riding to the hospital with her, unarmed, and only if that doesn't work will we go get him. We go out on normal patrol, and I'm as usual riding in another deputy's patrol car, with my AR case and plate carrier in his trunk.
About 1500: All five of us on duty gather in a gas station parking lot and Sarge briefs us on the plan. I put on my Level IV standalone plates and go to ask Sarge if I should get out my AR too, obviously anticipating a big 10-4, but Sarge is on the phone with the guy's significant other. He hangs up and advises that the guy has left the house, is out and about somewhere, we don't know where he is, so stand down. I put my plate carrier back in the trunk of the patrol car.
About 1900, end of shift: Now we are all in the parking lot of the building where Central is located, in downtown County Seat. I take my AR case and plate carrier out of the patrol car I've been riding in and walk them over to my POV. I stow the AR case and plate carrier in my trunk and open up the passenger door, where the LTR is in its hard case. I set the case on the parking lot, open it and clear the LTR by opening the bolt and verifying that no cartridge is in the mag or chamber. I then hand it to the interested deputy, with two more deputies looking on. Interested deputy closes the bolt, mounts the rifle, and points it across the street, but we are far enough away from the street that nobody was close enough to see us--remember it's nighttime. That's when I said "good gracious son!" but nothing harsher since the interested deputy is several years senior to me, and anyway, yelling at each other is not our way in our department. However, he says "that trigger's kind of tight" and he does not immediately want to buy it. I secure it back in the case, put the case back in the passenger seat, and motor home, a little shaken.
Yes, he knows that anyone seen to be acting as he did would be liable to get shot, but any LEO I know would at least try to issue a verbal warning and command to put the gun down, because most of the time it IS just somebody being unsafe. No, I didn't yell at him becaue I like my job and want to stay there, but I will note that he is not very safe with guns or is at least complacent. I also have a mental list of people who don't shoot too well, a rather reliable list because I'm the one who keeps up the in-service training records and I've seen everybody's firearms results. This doesn't mean that anybody's a schmuck or a superstar, it's just that we all have strengths and weaknesses and it's best to know who has what weakness before having to rely on them.
No, law enforcement is not above the law, but what the interested deputy did wasn't illegal. You have to intend to scare or actually shoot the person you're pointing the gun at for it to amount to assault under NC law. Careless pointing isn't a crime. Come to think of it, while I was driving in that morning, there was a group of hunters by the roadside about to turn the dogs loose, and one of them was standing with his shotgun laying on his shoulder about parallel with the ground, and pointed exactly at the road. I really should have stopped and said something, but if I did that every time I see an unsafe condition, I'd have a hard time getting anywhere. Also, the hunters all around him weren't stopping him, and if they don't care about their own safety, I lack the power to change their minds.
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