View Full Version : High-end AR purchase
I'm wanting to buy my first AR. Been in the military for 25 years, and have infantry and SWAT experience, so I've shot tons of weapons. I'm wanting a general purpose AR that I can beat the hell out of, but I'd like to get into some 3-gun matches eventually, so I need decent accuracy too. I'm looking hard at a Noveske N4 Barrel 16 inch lo-pro; and I'm also considering the KAC SR-15. I have right at $2K to spend, and I only want to buy one AR. I was all set to buy one of those two rifles, than I started looking into Daniel Defense. I can get a M4V5 for about $1400, am I really getting $600 more in value with the KAC or Noveske over the DD or a rifle at a similar price point? I know the Noveske barrels are supposed to be some of the best, and the KAC is supposed to shot smooth and has outstanding reliability; but considering the build of the entire rifle are those two rifles really $600 better?
bushyfan24
08-02-11, 09:56
Have you looked at Colt? The 6920 can be found for around 1100.
DD and you'll have money left towards an optic.
I have looked at the Colt, and have been issued several over the years. This may sound stupid, but I absolutely HATE the 203 notch in the barrel. Looks ugly, and I don't need it.
And I do have more practical reasons for not going with the Colt, carbine length gas instead of mid-length, and shorter handguard options. Not for the shortage of rails (all I'm going to mount is a light anyway) but because I like to move my support hand further down the barrel when possible. Hard to fight that USMC muscle memory! I have considered buying a Colt and adding a lo-pro gas block and mounting a longer handguard, but I'd rather buy something that I don't have to "fix" later.
DDM4 v5. Don't know what your time frame is, but PM Grant at G&R and he can get you a better price than $1400 ... though he quoted me a fairly long wait along w/ the good price.
OK, thanks. I got the $1400 price from the Military discount price at Rainier Arms, even better if I can go lower than that!
Hello,
If I had your money to work with, I'd buy a Special Production AR-15 from Specialized Armament http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/Special_Production-2-0.html
I have a SR 15 and you won't regret purchasing it. Can't miss pick.
Johnny Rico
08-02-11, 10:53
I don't have any experience with Daniel Defense, but I have a Noveske Light Recce and I got a KAC SR-15 upper yesterday. I don't use guns for a living, but I like to buy quality. I believe that the purchase of a firearm is the inexpensive part of gun ownership. Ammo costs can quickly eclipse the initial purchase price so it makes sense to buy as much gun as you can afford.
Since I just received the KAC yesterday I haven't yet shot it. I will tell you this, the balance of this upper when mated to a lower with a CTR stock is incredible. It's very lively, and my Noveske feels like a 2x4 in comparison. And while the KAC is an expensive rifle, it is also an incredible value. The entire package includes a hammer forged barrel, URX rail, ambi controls, outstanding KAC iron sights, enhanced BCG, LMT SOPMOD stock, and 2-stage trigger. You'd be hard pressed to build a rifle of similar quality for $2K.
That said, I'd suggest Daniel Defense or Noveske for your situation. KAC uses a few proprietary parts for the SR-15, so getting extras to stash away is more difficult, not to mention more expensive. DD and Noveske use normal AR parts which you can get from any number of vendors.
Whatever you decide, I suggest getting the gun you want. It's cheaper (and easier) to do it right the first time instead of upgrading later.
jonconsiglio
08-02-11, 10:55
I have owned 2 SR15's and a Noveske. I've not owned a Daniel Defense though their RIS II rails are my first choice. The initial cost of the SR15 is not at all bad for what you get. Personally, I'm not a fan of the integrated sight of the URX II. I've broken one and bent the hell out of another. The good guys at KAC replaced it free of charge.
The SR15 is not the most accurate rifle out there, though I get very good accuracy from match ammo. The Noveske I had with a standard chf barrel was a good bit more accurate. I've been thinking about replacing the URX II with a RIS II, but now I'm starting to think I might just put that sr15 upper on the EE for trade for a m4a1 block 2 type upper from BCM, Noveske, etc.
I'm not complaining about the KAC and I think it's a great rifle. Considering the initial cost, you get a lot. The upper has an MSRP of about $1,500 but you can get it for less. It's ready to go and there's nothing to add. It comes with the KAC rear 200-600, auto carrier and the URX II. The URX II used to cost nearly $500, now it's around $300.
The lower comes with a $250 SOPMOD stock assembly, a $320 trigger, $70 selector, $30 trigger guard, a lower if stripped would run a couple hundred or more plus the parts. You can find those for $650 to $750, depending.
On the other hand, the Noveske is a better value when you buy the upper separate and a stripped lower then assemble it yourself. It's basically the opposite with Noveske and you can save a few hundred or more by assembling the lower.
If I was starting with nothing, I'd probably get a 14.5" or 16" Noveske, DD or BCM and most likely not buy the SR15 as my primary gun. I really appreciate it for what it is, but now that I want to change the rail, I need to find a wrench to borrow if I end up going that route as buying one is over $200. Also, there's been no reports of a broken or sheared bolt that I'm aware of and the barrel will last a couple times longer than most. The only issue at all is if you do need to replace the bolt, it's almost $400 and if you need to rebarrel it, you're sending it it instead of doing it yourself. Having said that, I have about 15,000 through one and there's really no loss of accuracy from new. As for the Ambi features of the lower, I never use them and shoot support side almost every range trip.
I'd go with the Noveske but any of the three would be a great choice.
Jon
SomeOtherGuy
08-02-11, 10:56
Your options are all good, and if you want an optic and are budget limited I think the Daniel Defense plus an optic would be a good bet.
If you already have an optic or don't want to buy one right away, I would look at the LMT MRP CQB. They are awesome, and will meet your quality, durability and accuracy requirements. The only nonstandard parts are the upper receiver and the barrel - all the items that are more likely to wear out or break are standard AR15 parts.
Larue PredatAR, best bang for your buck.
Hello,
If I had your money to work with, I'd buy a Special Production AR-15 from Specialized Armament http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/Special_Production-2-0.html
None of which have the mid-length gas system the OP asked for.
I have a Noveske N4 midlength and my friend has a DD midlength with a 9" Lite rail and standard FSB.
While I do like my N4 a lot, if I were to do it over again I would save a little money and go with a Daniel Defense. For a standard general purpose type rifle, I dont see Noveske's barrel as a big advantage over DDs hammer forged barrels and the DD will most likely be lighter.
I was down at the new Scottsdale Gun Club Peoria store the other day handling a new DD V5 LW. Thats what I would get.
Just had a thought. Since you said you have years of experience with the longer rifle in the USMC, have you looked at BCMs M16A4 clone?
jonconsiglio
08-02-11, 11:12
You had asked if the Noveske or KAC were worth $600 more than the DD. This is where buying the upper and lower separately with Noveske would save you a lot of money. They may still have the deal where they give you a free stripped blem lower with the purchase of an upper. Even if they don't, it's still a good savings.
If I went with another Noveske, I'd still add a DD rail to it.
Jon
I'm wanting to buy my first AR. Been in the military for 25 years, and have infantry and SWAT experience, so I've shot tons of weapons. I'm wanting a general purpose AR that I can beat the hell out of, but I'd like to get into some 3-gun matches eventually, so I need decent accuracy too. I'm looking hard at a Noveske N4 Barrel 16 inch lo-pro; and I'm also considering the KAC SR-15. I have right at $2K to spend, and I only want to buy one AR. I was all set to buy one of those two rifles, than I started looking into Daniel Defense. I can get a M4V5 for about $1400, am I really getting $600 more in value with the KAC or Noveske over the DD or a rifle at a similar price point? I know the Noveske barrels are supposed to be some of the best, and the KAC is supposed to shot smooth and has outstanding reliability; but considering the build of the entire rifle are those two rifles really $600 better?
As I'm sure you've realized by now, most people are just going to tell you "buy what I bought" or "buy what I think is best for me", not "here's what I think is best for you and why". Jon's post above is one of the best in the thread because he's actually telling you NOT to buy what he has and why. Any post in a thread like this that's only one sentence long isn't worth the time it took the poster to type. WHY they think it's best is more important than WHAT they think is best.
Jon is also spot-on regarding buying the Noveske upper and assembling your own lower or sourcing it elsewhere. Noveske's value is in the upper/barrel. The one caveat here is that many people want a complete gun for a variety of reasons (potential resale often being the biggest one, warranty work is another) and there isn't anything wrong with a Noveske lower or complete gun by a long stretch. and with the new flared lowers they have coming, there is a major incentive to go with a complete gun, especially for 3-gun use. I am personally not a fan of the Noveske proprietary rail system as I think it's heavier than it needs to be for what it is. You could always buy one of their Basic models and have another rail installed but that's more work and time.
with your stated wants and goals, I also think the Noveske is a good option, but it's hard to beat the price on the DD. I think most people would tell you they expect the Noveske to be more accurate but I haven't seen any side-by-side testing to prove that's true or not.
I think the DD would probably be the best buy here for you, for your intended use. It gets you a gun in your hand with money left over for an optic (or mags and ammo) and gets you out on the range shooting. If it turns out to be less accurate than you think you need then you can make changes to the barrel (Noveske's stainless barrels are very nice) or even sell the whole gun.
Thanks for all of the replies. I've thought along all of those lines at various times as I've considered my purchase. Having never shot any of these weapons (only Mil issue Colt's and FN's and an HK416 in Afghanistan that I "borowed") I'm going totally off of internet info and the advice of friends. I started drooling over Noveske's first, and thought hard about just getting one of their uppers. Just wish they'd make some available! I'm thinking if I don't go Noveske, I'll always wish I had. Thanks for all of the quick and insightful input. The proprietary parts issue with the SR-15 does give me some concern, as I plan on having this sucker forever. Headquarters Six only gives weapon purchase approval once every year or so, and my next approval window will be to buy a 9mm pistol to add to my stable.
Before anyone jumps on THAT, I already have a 1911!
Larue PredatAR, best bang for your buck.
I didn't realize how inexpensively they were selling these (http://larueosr.com/ltp556-16.aspx). $1500 is a pretty good price for what you appear to get. Too bad they're pretty much sole-source I would guess so there's not much chance of doing even better on the price. Are their little screw-on plastic handguard sections available yet? I like that feature quite a bit.
brzusa.1911
08-02-11, 11:27
I looked into the LaRue PredatAr a while ago and found out they don't have M4 feedramps, while no one has ever had or reported an issue with it, I would probably have a with it.
bakercountyboy
08-02-11, 11:36
if i had your cash to spend i would go with a SR15. shot this sbr 11.5 sr15 over the weekend and it was O so sweet. very well built
http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss231/gsxrpartsboy/DSCN2930.jpg
http://www.cypressarmory.com/cypress/long-guns/bcm-eag-carbine-5.56-14.5-fde-30rd/
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-EAG-Pat-Rogers-s/151.htm
Game, set, and.....Match!
If I had $2k to spend on a carbine, that's what I'd go with.
Well as everyone is well aware my first thoughts are that whatever AR you purchase it should be a fighting gun first and foremost. If you are able to go to ninja shooting matches with it, then cool.
I am also against permed flash hiders, except in a few cases. In your case I wouldn't get one with a permed flash hider.
I would look at a build. Get an upper with a rail or whatever that matches your needs as well as whatever lower fits you.
If you decide to do competition shooting with it, then instal a Geissele trigger and with a good free float rail you are on the road.
You should be able to put together a good AR and get an optic for under 2000.00. However, I am a firm believer in not setting price points. If you want a specific set up simply save a little longer or buy the weapon first and then add the optic. Remember that you also need magazines and ammuntion for it as well.
TonyTacoma
08-02-11, 13:46
There's a reason noveske has the reputation they do, if you buy one you wont wonder if the extra money was worth it. Durable, accurate, solid. That said kac builds an awesome rifle too, I like both your choices, I also like the idea of a build aswell.
OK, thanks. I got the $1400 price from the Military discount price at Rainier Arms, even better if I can go lower than that!
Check out Clyde Armory
http://clydearmory.com/firearms/rifles/daniel-defense.html
My Daniels Defense was built using a separate Light weight upper and a lower from G&R Tactical, instead of buying a complete rifle. The advantage is you can build a rifle configuration that Daniels doesn't offer, and you avoid the 11% FET on assembled rifles. Just something to think about.
I'm not an experienced shooter like the other guys here are, but I can't help but think that from a bang-for-your-buck standpoint that it would be hard to beat the DD with enough cash left over for an Aimpoint. And that's not to say anything negative against KAC or Noveske.
Also if you don't need all the rail space take a look at the new DD V7.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=85983
FWIW: Lawmens will give you an SR15 for $1700 If you are Mil/LEO. In my opinion thats a great value considering what you get: LMT Stock, 2stage triger, front/rear BUIS, and a rail system. Add all those things up and most others will end up costing you well over $1700. I have had mine for about a year now and not a single issue with a wide range of ammo. I own a 6920 which is what I cary in my squad car but if the dept allowed it the SR15 would go with me anywhere.
It is human nature to always want the best and improve on what you have. I have been trying to replace my SR15 with the "next" best combat carbine but always come up with nothing. I havent been able to shoot or play around with a Larue PredatAR and that seems like a good contender. The SS barrel has a very neat profile and is 1/8 twist which will stabilize a lot of duty rounds very well, al that with a geissele triger should make it a really acurate combat rifle.
This Lawmens?
http://www.lawmens.net/products.html
This Lawmens?
http://www.lawmens.net/products.html
Yes sir thats it, give them a call, great customer service.
ETA: If you do give them a call let me know if the price is still the same, I have been considering a second one.
I'm wanting to buy my first AR. Been in the military for 25 years, and have infantry and SWAT experience, so I've shot tons of weapons. I'm wanting a general purpose AR that I can beat the hell out of, but I'd like to get into some 3-gun matches eventually, so I need decent accuracy too.
When you add the competition part into the equation, I think this puts the Noveske at the top of your list due to their barrels. They have a LE discount that you should inquire about to help further evaluate your options between complete rifles and complete uppers. The new Noveske lowers with flared magwell could also give you an edge in competitions. Rainier Arms is another source for Noveske products (I bought my 6.8SPC recce rifle there).
If you go with a complete upper only, you'll have a little more flexibility to add the rail, muzzle device and irons (or none) of your choice rather than paying into the Lo Pro package deal that includes front/rear Troys, Vortex and (slightly heavier) Noveske rail. You also save the excise tax by buying the upper and lower seperately. For a standard lower value, I would highly recommend the BCM "blem" complete lowers and adding the stock and Geissele trigger of your choice after it arrives.
wolf_walker
08-02-11, 21:04
This may sound stupid, but I absolutely HATE the 203 notch in the barrel. Looks ugly, and I don't need it.
glad it ain't just me
Before anyone jumps on THAT, I already have a 1911!
Whoa! We need a pole to find out how many comments that shut off.
How come nobody has said anything about a BCM w/chf barrel and an ACOG/Aimpoint/EOTech/etc? Under 2K (except with ACOG) even with sling and mags. From my experience and what most people seem to think on here BCM is plenty good. Since the OP intends to keep it, who cares about resale or bragging rights?
Either way he is going to get a reliable weapon that will perform from the 3 choices of KAC, BCM, and DD.
No matter what you pick just run with it and shoot the shit out of it.:D
Not sure what you meant about shutting comments off. I was hoping to stave off a "9mm vs. .45 debate", which happens almost as often as the "DI vs. Piston" debate :)
I looked at BCM, same problem as Noveske; the uppers I'd like to get are out of stock. I may have to meditate and work on my patience to see if stuff gets restocked in a few weeks.
And again, let me thank everyone for jumping in with your insights. I think I've decided to give Noveske til mid August. If they don't get their N4 line restocked I'm going to jump on a DD and use the extra $$ for an optic.
Seeing as how you do not like the 203 notch (neither do I), going to throw the Colt 6720 out there. Now... regardless, the others mentioned are very solid options. You truly cannot go wrong with any mentioned.
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