View Full Version : Overall length - 14.5" vs 14.7"
I'm looking to meet the minimum requirements of barrel length. I see a lot of people mention 16.1", is there a reason it has to be 16"? The gun laws where I live state "rifles with barrel lengths less than sixteen inches;" so I would interpret that as a 16" overall length would be fine.
At the moment I have a 14.5" Barrel with a Smith Vortex FH and it JUST fits into a discreet case of mine which I like. When I say it JUST fits, I mean its actually a little bit to big and I have to almost stretch the case to fit it in.
I'd like to shave off a tiny bit of length if possible as even a couple millimeters might make enough of a difference.
Right now I'm having a barrel cut and re-profiled and I figure it would be the perfect opportunity to get it to the exact length I want. I plan on using a BattleComp 1.0 on it and I was originally planning on having it cut to 14.7" but I'm wondering if that would put me at 16.1" with a crush washer and BC1.0 installed. Would I be better off having it cut to 14.6"?
I'd appreciate any help :) Thanks!
A BC1.0 WILL NOT put you over legal limit. BC 1.5 is for 14.5 barrels, and puts it at the legal limit.
A BC1.0 WILL NOT put you over legal limit. BC 1.5 is for 14.5 barrels, and puts it at the legal limit.
I know, which is why I mentioned I'm having a barrel cut and I'd like to know the exact minimum length to have it cut to achieve the 16" on the dot.
Eurodriver
08-03-11, 20:05
I know, which is why I mentioned I'm having a barrel cut and I'd like to know the exact minimum length to have it cut to achieve the 16" on the dot.
Look man, it appears you are going to do what you're going to do regardless of what we tell you.
Do you have a bare threaded muzzle now? Here's what you do.
Close the bolt and stick a rod down the muzzle until it stops. Mark the rod and Measure it as precisely as possible.
Now add whatever muzzle device you want. Repeat the above.
From there you can figure out what length of barrel you will need to exactly meet 16 inches.
We can all be real and say if your barrel is 15.9, even 15.5 or even 15...no one is really going to be able to tell its illegal. Even if the muzzle device is attached non-permanently and it puts you over 16". Who's gonna know? Unless you have an unfortunate encounter with a Law enforcement officer (which most are not even familiar enough to know 16" is the minimum barrel length) you're in the clear.
What most of us do, is take the cover your ass approach. I'm assuming the guy measuring my bore length (if it ever happens, which we all will admit is almost never going to happen) is an idiot. If he makes the mark too far in the flash hider, and my bore is right at 16"...I'm below the limit now.
The bottom line is, regardless of the improbability:
Adding a tenth or even a quarter of an inch to an AR15 barrel is worth not being convincted of a crime that sends you to prison for 10 years.
Underwhere
08-03-11, 20:21
I think 14.7 is the correct barrel length with a BC 1.0 to make 16"
The bottom line is, regardless of the improbability:
Adding a tenth or even a quarter of an inch to an AR15 barrel is worth not being convincted of a crime that sends you to prison for 10 years.
Additionally though, I'd not perm attach a brake- it's a wear item and that extra 1.4 or so inches is not worth the hassle...
YMMV
No offense, but if you're doing this just to fit the rifle in a bag, wouldn't it be easier to buy a bigger bag?
For awhile 14.5" barrels with permanently-mounted long flash hiders were all the rage. Nowadays you hardly ever see them, because a lot of folks discovered that there are times when you may actually need to take that thing off.
This belongs into the category of too much thinking. Trying to fit the weapon into the bag by altering it doesn't make sense.
In addition you are not going to notice the handling or anything else by altering a few millimeters in this lifetime or any other.
Apologies if I'm over thinking it.
I was already going to have a 16" barrel cut to 14.7" and I figure it wouldn't hurt to do some homework and see what the actual minimum length I could cut it would be.
If you're going to spend a few hundred dollars with a gun smith to reprofile, cut, and alter your barrel to fit in a $75 gun bag, wouldn't it make sense to buy another bag.
Is 1mm worth the ass pain that the ATF could bring down if you shaved too much off?
Would anyone ever find out? Probably not, but why take the chance.
I had the same argument with a gun smith in Tallahassee, FL when he returned my 14.5" Heavy Barrel w/ a 1" A2 birdcage on it. Needless to say, it was the last time I ever gave him business. He even had the audacity to attempt and charge me more money for him to go and re-do the work.
Apologies if I'm over thinking it.
I was already going to have a 16" barrel cut to 14.7" and I figure it wouldn't hurt to do some homework and see what the actual minimum length I could cut it would be.
You can cut it as short as you want; just make sure you either a) spend the extra $200 for the stamp or b) get a long enough muzzle device and permanently attach it to make it 16.1". That .1" is a little butthurt now to ensure there isn't any from prison.
PRGGodfather mentioned on the old BC thread that a BC1.5 adds just over 1.5" to the OAL of your barrel. The BC1.0? You guessed it, about an inch.
If I was too cheap/lazy/in a nanny state and didn't SBR it but still wanted to go as short as possible, I would go 14.5" and add a BC1.5 and permanently attach it.
If you're going to spend a few hundred dollars with a gun smith to reprofile, cut, and alter your barrel to fit in a $75 gun bag, wouldn't it make sense to buy another bag.
This.
I think it would make more sense to take the $$ you're going to spend on altering your weapon and buy a case that fits it. You can pick up a good condition used Pelican Case for $150 or a new/used soft case for less.
If you absolutely have to cut it down, I'd consider taking it to a gunsmith you trust in your area and asking them their opinion on it first.
I never said the sole purpose of cutting down a barrel was to fit in a bag.
As I said earlier I'm already having a barrel cut down to 14.7" and since I was already doing this I was hoping to find out what the minimum actually is.
advntrjnky
08-04-11, 07:35
If your state allows SBR have you ever thought of just registering it? if you subtract the cost of having the FH permed....you are part way to the $200 tax and then you can swap to what ever FH you want then. you could even cut the barrel to 14" and have lots of extra room to fit in your bag.
advntrjnky
Okay, somebody fretting over millimeters for the purposes of legality clearly isn't considering going the SBR route. That's making up your own question to answer in lieu of answering the question posed. Not a fan of that.
Tell the guy how long you want the OAL w/device to be. Provide him with a barrel that allows him to meet this metric. Hold him to that metric. Gunsmiths should be used to this level of persnickety-ness. Have him tell you what he had to cut the barrel to, once the job is complete.
Voila; you'll have your answer. Food for thought: If you don't trust the guy to cut that barrel to the specfic length you want, and feel the need to specify the length to cut to instead of the desired length of the finished product, why are you trusting him to cut it in the first place?
Corollary: You're willing to risk the possibility of the thing not being cut long enough to be legal....over nothing more than a millimeter or two and being dead-nuts-on 16" OAL, instead of maybe being 16.1"? It's America, so do as you see fit, but there's no ROI on that risk except to assuage a personality quirk.
1. Too much thinking.
2. This is a "fit 'n' finish" topic. Function is form in a fighting rifle. This doesn't affect function any more than scrimshaw and filigree work...
...but I'll leave it open for somebody to provide a no-shit measurement, IOT get you an answer, provided somebody can DO that.
Something in Imperial or metric length units.
And nothing else.
Too much thinking and possibly money over less than a quarter of an inch of barrel length. Just buy another bag for heavens sake if all you're trying to do is fit it in a bag.
I would find it hard to believe that even the ATF would fret over 1/8" - 3/16" of an inch when you're talking about a 16" barrel with muzzle device.
JSantoro
Would you happen to be a Master Sergeant in the military? You sure weld a sword like one. :D Good stuff.
He already stated that the bag isn't the primary thrust of the question of length. Let's see if we can get him an actual measurement.
That means numbers, folks!
Blame what you see me type as the results of a Jesuit education and a barely-contained, unfocused inner rage ( ;) ).
From http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf
Page 6
"A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, High-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured."
Seems to me the 16.1" after perming a muzzle device is to ensure compliance.
You can always call your local ATF office and ask.
If you ding up the muzzle on a rifle or shotgun you have a little extra there to face off and recrown if it's cut at 16.1 inches or 18.5. Granted, the AR muzzle is covered by the flash hider so buggering up the crown isn't as easy as something with a bare muzzle. But it is possible to get some corrosion there. If it's cut a bit long, you can go back and recrown it.
Here's my advice: Have it cut to 14.7 inches and use a standard BC 1.0 or A2 flash hider. If, in the future, it becomes necessary to recrown the barrel you can take it down to 14.5 and use a BC 1.5 or A2X or other longer flash hider. At 14.7 you can still hit the legal minimum, but have room to repair the barrel if you have to.
Just my $.02 worth.
Additionally though, I'd not perm attach a brake- it's a wear item and that extra 1.4 or so inches is not worth the hassle...
YMMV
so if it's a wear item, and removing the permed brake generally destroys it, what's the issue???
so if it's a wear item, and removing the permed brake generally destroys it, what's the issue???
The issue is that it's a PITA to remove and replace a permed device.
Thanks for the responses guys, especially JSantoro.
I'm having Marvin Pitts do the work and while I have reason to trust him he seems very busy and figured I'd just make it easier for him. I suppose I'll shoot him an email and see if he has the time to figure it out.
Thanks again.
Dave
I say SBR it or just go with the 16.1" overalll length since it should still fit in that bag while being more on the safe side of you being legal.
On another note. How offer are people removing their flashiders? I see lots of talk about perming them making removal hard, but how are often are folks removing them? I set up my guns and haven't needed to remove the FH once mounted.
The issue is that it's a PITA to remove and replace a permed device.
no it's not. you'll destroy (at least cosmetically) a permed device but it's no harder than taking a dremel to the weld bead and then maybe drilling down a bit on the pin till it loosens. you're not welding the FH to the barrel...
one thing to keep in mind is that the barrel length has very little to do with the OAL you are asking about. it is almost all dependent on the FH torque shoulder and also whether or not you use a washer as a spacer. if you have ever looked inside most FH you will see that there is a lot of leeway for where the muzzle crown can be. If you use a non-indexed FH again your smith should be able to adjust the shoulder down to the bare minimum for you fairly easily. if your barrel's muzzle ends up at 14.4", 14.5", 14.6", or 14.7" who cares. it's all about the torque shoulder location and the specific muzzle devise you use.
advntrjnky
But he still won't make 16" with a 14.7" barrel and a 1" muzzle device. Does anyone have any picture proof of this? Maybe it'll help
advntrjnky
08-04-11, 17:22
one thing to keep in mind is that the barrel length has very little to do with the OAL you are asking about. it is almost all dependent on the FH torque shoulder and also whether or not you use a washer as a spacer. if you have ever looked inside most FH you will see that there is a lot of leeway for where the muzzle crown can be. If you use a non-indexed FH again your smith should be able to adjust the shoulder down to the bare minimum for you fairly easily. if your barrel's muzzle ends up at 14.4", 14.5", 14.6", or 14.7" who cares. it's all about the torque shoulder location and the specific muzzle devise you use.
advntrjnky
no it's not. you'll destroy (at least cosmetically) a permed device but it's no harder than taking a dremel to the weld bead and then maybe drilling down a bit on the pin till it loosens. you're not welding the FH to the barrel...
I think grinding off the bead, possibly drilling, pulling the pin, takingoff old device... then drilling, pinning and welding a new one on is indeed a PITA compared to unscrewing the old one and screwing on a new one.
Back on Track- OP, marvin does great work, he'll hook you up.
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