Downgraded: Find them, bury their bodies at sea....

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/sandp-considering-first-downgrade-of-us-credit-rating/2011/08/05/gIQAqKeIxI_print.html


The same rating agencies that couldn't see anything wrong with the trash mortgage bonds just downgraded US debt, even as people pour money into them.

If the CIA ever made anyone dissapear, I'd make these analysts not show up for work on Monday, or enough kiddie porn on their computers their assholes wished they had been buried at sea.


Like a child crying that they just want their parents to stop arguing,


“political brinkmanship” in the debate over the debt had made the U.S. government’s ability to manage its finances “less stable, less effective and less predictable.” It said the bi-partisan agreement reached this week to find at least $2.1 trillion in budget savings “fell short” of what was necessary to tame the nation’s debt over time and predicted that leaders would not be likely to achieve more savings later on.

So Barry and the MSM will blame the Tea Party for all of it, even though they are the ones who were just saying the emperor has no clothes.

Where are you going to put your money? Yuan, the Euro (yeah, that's a stable monetary platform), how many Swiss Francs are their to go around?

Just like Britian should have sent in the SAS when Soros made a run on the Pound, these technical terrorists, these Allah-Akbhar analysts should be dealt with harshly.

S&P analysts have now taken the place of Microsoft Windows engineers as the person I would most like to bitch slap.

[120mm]

So, you're all butt-hurt that people without blinders are pointing out that the US is rapidly becoming a third-world nation based on their financial mismanagement?

Talking about shooting the messengers.

[Belmont31R]

Lol. They warned that unless serious cuts were made we'd get downgraded even if the debt ceiling was raised. The deal didn't meet the cuts needed...so we go't down graded.



The rating doesn't really have anything, directly, to do with mortgages. The rating is our ability to pay bonds and treasuries back.

[Gutshot John]

Why blame the analysts for having the integrity to speak the truth we already know?

[ForTehNguyen]

S&P finally is growing a spine and some honesty. Moodys has already said they wouldnt downgrade after the debt ceiling was raised. Then S&P jumps out and downgrades. Now what, is Moody's going to downgrade? That would completely shoot down their credibility. Moody's will look like a complete fool if copies S&P.

This is a complete surprise to me that S&P did this, I did not expect a downgrade for quite some time.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

BECAUSE THESE ARE THE SAME ANALYSTS THAT GOT US INTO THE MESS WITH THE BOGUS RATINGS OF THE MORTGAGE BACKED SECURITIES.

These finanical assholes double-****ed us. They are a large cause of the problem and then they all of a sudden get some integrity? This is all about the financial masters messing with us again. After all those incorrect ratings on the CDOs, where was all the pain brought on them? None.

At the same time, the market is speaking and the yields and are down and the prices for bonds are up. So the people with real money on the line are putting it into treasuries.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Let me put it this way, do you think that France is a better place to put your money than US govt bonds? They have a AAA rating. Italy, with all their FUBARness is a AA-. The Netherlands has a AAA rating and they haven't been able to put a govt together since February.

You guys are Tea Party advocates, correct? Get ready to take the blame for this.



The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see
America's governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effectiv
and less predictable than what we previously believed. The statutory debt
ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips
the debate over fiscal policy. Despite this year's wide-ranging debate, i
view, the differences between political parties have proven to be
extraordinarily difficult to bridge, and, as we see it, the resulting

[ForTehNguyen]

It's all a game, and these guys just threw a fast ball at our heads. Maybe you guys take your base, I charge the mound.

You'll see this as a victory because it vindicates your view that we should all be punished. There can be some potentially really nasty implications to this and if nothing else a lot of churn and uncertianty. People who cans choose where to put their money are putting it into treasuries. If this causes instituitions to move their money because of an articifical change in the ratings and that warps the interest rates you all will be singing a different tune.

Better to take the bitter medicine now than keep living in this illusion. Or else the pain will be that much worse later when the day of reckoning comes. It sounds like to me you would rather keep living the delusional economy we have. You dont think some of us realize this? I started financial preprarations a few years ago to defend my wealth. Some have started longer than I have. I do truly wish I was wrong, but everything just keeps on confirming what I forecast. The only thing I can do now is to prepare financially.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

http://www.standardandpoors.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobheadername3=MDT-Type&blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobheadervalue2=inline%3B+filename%3DUS_Downgraded_AA%2B.pdf&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobheadername1=content-type&blobwhere=1243942957443&blobheadervalue3=UTF-8

If you read it, our debt is no worse than England or France, maybe even a bit better, but they are worried that if nothing changes by 2015 we might have a higher debt to GDP ratio than those AAA rated countries.

[ForTehNguyen]

so now they make the correct decision and youre still upset? Read the writing on the wall, we have deserved this for quite some time. Now someone finally has the balls to tell it like it is.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

It's all a game, and these guys just threw a fast ball at our heads. Maybe you guys take your base, I charge the mound.

You'll see this as a victory because it vindicates your view that we should all be punished. There can be some potentially really nasty implications to this and if nothing else a lot of churn and uncertianty. People who cans choose where to put their money are putting it into treasuries. If this causes instituitions to move their money because of an articifical change in the ratings and that warps the interest rates you all will be singing a different tune.

[variablebinary]

This is not shocking or a surprise in the slightest.

How could it be given our current financial situation?

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

You guys want to wear it like a badge, go right ahead. It probably means nothing, but we'll all see what happens Monday.

If investment companies, insurance companies and the like have to dump the US treasuries for those from Lichtenstien. Luxemborg, Isle of Man, France, Guerney and Hong Kong- we'll just see what happens.

The Swiss have to be absolutely shitting their pants right now.

[Moose-Knuckle]

These finanical assholes double-****ed us.

Exactly, Wall St and the Fed have us as they say in the hardcore pornography world "air tight".

[ForTehNguyen]

The Swiss have to be absolutely shitting their pants right now.

I'm sure the Swiss already knew how dire US finances were like many of us years ago. Countries around the world have been secretly diversifying themselves out of the dollar, long before S&P did any downgrade. S&P is late to the party. Other countries are smarter than what you may think, I doubt this downrating surprised them one bit. More like them asking what took S&P so long. Nobody wants to be the first person to run out the door of the US dollar party, looks like S&P took the first couple steps towards the door.

You really think some of us are proud of this? Every one of us wishes we were wrong about the financial hell that is inevitable. There is nothing any of us can do now but to prepare for that. Nobody wants this to happen but it will.

[The_War_Wagon]

Where are you going to put your money? Yuan...

Were I a market player, YES - sad to say... :( The boot goes up the ass of Greenspan & Helicopter Ben for that reality, though.

In the interim, gold & junk silver coins; arms, ammo, & spare parts (although I subscribe to the theory that the best set of spare parts, is ANOTHER firearm). Canned & freeze-dried food, toilet paper, and a few more band-aids ain't bad options either.

Can't wait to see how big a DUMP the markets take, starting with Asia Sunday evening, Europe overnight, and the Dow Monday morning. :o

[GermanSynergy]

Don't worry guys- QE 3, 4, 5 and some more stimulus spending will get the economy back on track.

And it's Bush's fault. :rolleyes:

[Palmguy]

You shouldn't be pissed off at S&P...you should be pissed off at our government that racked up $14T in debt. They had specific warning that if they didn't cut a certain amount, we'd be downgraded. They didn't make the cuts, and we were downgraded.

Sent from my Evo using Tapatalk

[Belmont31R]

Our government was told what number of cuts they needed to make. They didn't. Only one entity to blame here.

[Suwannee Tim]

Guess what Goldman Sachs is investing in? Can't, huh? Aluminum. Metal, not futures. Thousands of tons of it. It is being warehoused in the Detroit area. Seems those abandoned warehouses are good for something. Story here. (http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-goldmans-money-machine-warehouses-090810768.html)

[VooDoo6Actual]

You shouldn't be pissed off at S&P...you should be pissed off at our government that racked up $14T in debt. They had specific warning that if they didn't cut a certain amount, we'd be downgraded. They didn't make the cuts, and we were downgraded.

Sent from my Evo using Tapatalk

This.

[VooDoo6Actual]

weird double tap. Kindly delete.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Have you guys actually read the downgrade report? I have an MBA and I assumed that it was going to be way over my head. I have seen better reasoning and more facts and analysis economic based forums. It reads like a talking points memo for a low level moron politician. I was expecting some whizbang technical analysis but all he did was compare debt rates to a couple of other countries, a key one being France and say that if nothing happens we'll have more debt than them past 2015. He relies on bad CBO and simplitic economic models.

If I were a high payed analyst, I'd be ashamed to downgrade the largest economy in the world with what looks like Huffington Post op ed article.

That's what I'm getting at. This is not based on any whizbang number crunching, or insightful analysis or even the reading of some good entrails. The fact that he benchmarks against near peers, that have some potentially larger issues than even we have and you start to understand that this downgrade is some kind fo FU.

[hatt]

How could we not be downgraded? And why did it take so long? We've been living on credit cards. No one would think a person who requires credit cards to make the bills, year after year, is a good credit risk.

[variablebinary]

The fact that he benchmarks against near peers, that have some potentially larger issues than even we have and you start to understand that this downgrade is some kind fo FU.


Well deserved FU. This nation's finances are managed like ass by the politicians. We probably should have had our credit rating questioned under GWB. It shouldn't taken this long to get a shot across the bow.

We haven't had debt at or near 100% GDP since WWII, and at least then we had so much to show for it in terms of production.

Now look at us, all this debt and there is jack shit to show for it. Really, once Bush got us to 80% debt to GDP around 2007 those hacks at Moody's and the S&P should have downgraded us.

[VooDoo6Actual]

Not acting like we have a spending problem...However glad they are here to help monitor borders etc.

http://www.businessinsider.com/global-hawk-spy-drones-2011-8

A fleet of 55 is rather substantial considering what they can do which includes circling the earth cintinuously for 36 hours. Each Global Hawk Blk 40 can sustain flight for 36 hours and program developing for fueling them in air unmaned.

http://www.isr.umd.edu/~austin/enes489p/projects2011a/BorderSecurity-Air-Team-FinalReport.pdf


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_Hawk

http://defense-update.com/products/g/globalhawk_rq4b.htm

interesting desparity in price.
One source says $35 million each the other says $213 million each @ total $23 BILLION......

That's a lot of SPY planes

[Belmont31R]

The main criticism of S&P and its contribution to the financial crisis was that it gave high credit ratings to organizations that didn't deserve them.

Now it's bound to be a bit more conservative in its approach and it should be.

The US doesn't deserve a AAA rating, and the reason it lost it has as much to do with its citizens as its politicians.

That we have a political system unwilling to adjust to the realities of the situation and buck their political constituencies as opposed to simply bickering like kindergartners is pathetic.



I just said in the other debt thread the democrat controlled senate and Obama never came out with their own plan to avoid the lowering. The senate hasn't even passed a budget in over 800 days...yet its the few Tea Party members fault in the House? All Obama did was give speeches about people with corporate jets and display his usual class warfare game. Harry Reid wouldn't even let the bills out of the House that would have avoided a lowering be voted on in the Senate.


The only logical explanation here is that the democrats refuse to let themselves believe their own ideology does not work, and instead of admitting they screwed up they attack everyone else. I heard something about Obama blaming S&P not the fact we are 14.5 trillion in debt, and no one from his party ever came up with anything to avoid it besides raising taxes, and raising taxes alone would not make up for his 1.6 trillion a year deficit. Taxes would have to effectively double to triple across the board, and his idea of a deficit reduction in spending doesn't even take effect immediately. Its hard to gather what he wanted to do (if anything) because he never formally laid out what he wanted to see done. Just speeches babbling about the evil rich, jet owners, and "their fair share".

[VooDoo6Actual]

15:18 - 16:10 marks of particular focus.

It's worth the 23 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqve7zzX4HQ

"It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master."
Ayn Rand

wakey wakey

[Gutshot John]

The main criticism of S&P and its contribution to the financial crisis was that it gave high credit ratings to organizations that didn't deserve them.

Now it's bound to be a bit more conservative in its approach and it should be.

The US doesn't deserve a AAA rating, and the reason it lost it has as much to do with its citizens as its politicians.

That we have a political system unwilling to adjust to the realities of the situation and buck their political constituencies as opposed to simply bickering like kindergartners is pathetic.

[glocktogo]

We're $14T in debt. We spend WAY more than we bring in. Here's a simple breakdown:


"If the US Government was a family, they would be making $58,000 a year, they spend $75,000 a year, & are $327,000 in credit card debt. They are currently proposing BIG spending cuts to reduce their spending to $72,000 a year. These are the actual proportions of the federal budget & debt, reduced to a level that we can understand." - Dave Ramsey

If the US .gov was a consumer, what would their credit score be, based on this information?

There's no reason to be upset with S&P, regardless of what their mouthpiece used as a reason for the downgrade. Have they made a lot of wrong calls? Sure. Did they make the wrong call here? Absolutely not.

100% of the blame lies with Congress and the Oval Office (and not just Obama). What's absolutely comical is seeing Congress and Obama get all huffy because they can't control the S&P index like they do the budget. They can blame whomever they want. It won't change the reality of the situation any more than wishful thinking would. :(

[Palmguy]

Have you guys actually read the downgrade report? I have an MBA and I assumed that it was going to be way over my head. I have seen better reasoning and more facts and analysis economic based forums. It reads like a talking points memo for a low level moron politician. I was expecting some whizbang technical analysis but all he did was compare debt rates to a couple of other countries, a key one being France and say that if nothing happens we'll have more debt than them past 2015. He relies on bad CBO and simplitic economic models.

If I were a high payed analyst, I'd be ashamed to downgrade the largest economy in the world with what looks like Huffington Post op ed article.

That's what I'm getting at. This is not based on any whizbang number crunching, or insightful analysis or even the reading of some good entrails. The fact that he benchmarks against near peers, that have some potentially larger issues than even we have and you start to understand that this downgrade is some kind fo FU.


Yes, I have.

Do you actually think the United States deserves a AAA rating?

Do you think the fictional person described above making $58k, spending $75k and has $300k+ in CC debt would have an 850 credit score?

[hatt]

I'd like to see someone go into a bank asking for a loan so they can pay the payments on the loan they got last month to pay their bills. Oh, hey, I want the best rate too.

[Rmplstlskn]

Of course, this SINGLE trade of $1 BILLION in less than 1 minute wouldn't have anything to do with the rating downgrade... Nah!

http://etfdailynews.com/2011/07/25/investors-the-1-billion-armageddon-trade-placed-against-the-united-states/

The FIX has always been in... For those IN the IN... (AKA not us)

Rmpl

[Rmplstlskn]

Soros?

Some, like Rawles, believes that... But it is unknown to us, the little people... Only a handful could do it...

Rmpl

[Belmont31R]

I'd like to see someone go into a bank asking for a loan so they can pay the payments on the loan they got last month to pay their bills. Oh, hey, I want the best rate too.




A government getting money, especially ours, amounts to masked agents with machine guns blowing your door open in the middle of the night, and throwing you in jail into you pay.


Just look at how long they can throw you in jail for not paying a $200 stamp tax. A decade, along with fines a permanent revocation of rights.

[Belmont31R]

Of course, this SINGLE trade of $1 BILLION in less than 1 minute wouldn't have anything to do with the rating downgrade... Nah!

http://etfdailynews.com/2011/07/25/investors-the-1-billion-armageddon-trade-placed-against-the-united-states/

The FIX has always been in... For those IN the IN... (AKA not us)

Rmpl



Soros?

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Yes, I have.

Do you actually think the United States deserves a AAA rating?

Do you think the fictional person described above making $58k, spending $75k and has $300k+ in CC debt would have an 850 credit score?

IF you think that the US doesn't deserve a AAA rating, then you don't understand what a AAA rating means. It a proxy for the mathmatical probability of a default. There is zero chance of the US defaulting. It's in the Consitution and even if it weren't we can print our way out of it, just like Greenspan said.

"But, but the level of debt" I can hear you all sputtering. Sorry, but you and the dumb-asses at S&P are trying to confuse two issues. Yes, the level of debt is onerous and very distructive- but we will always have money to pay the bills. It may not be worth the paper it is printed on, but the wheel barrows will roll.

That is why this S&P thing is bullshit. The rating is not trully a measure of how good the investment it is- just default risk. It doesn't factor in, or it is not supposed to factor in, monetary issues.

If monetary issues were a reason for downgrading, the uncertian (to be polite) or the short (to be realistic) lifetime of the Euro would be weighing more heavily on European bond ratings.

If you guys want to continue this weird masochistic-Schadenfreude, go right ahead. I'm not saying the debt isn't an issue, I'm just saying that this rating is bullshit.

All this is, is another reason for the Wall Street money changers to make a buck off of the churn.

[Gutshot John]

It a proxy for the mathmatical probability of a default.

That is a huge oversimplification. It is simply a measure of the quality of the bond. It's not an all-or-nothing thing. It's a rating, similar to the rating of any other investment. It's a free market and a free market relies on entities that can quantify market risk.

Similarly to a credit rating, when you get a loan a bank is investing in you based on the quality of your rating. The more risk the bank assumes the larger your interest rate. It doesn't mean you're likely or even will possibly default if your credit score is 680 rather than 780. You just pay more interest. I'm not sure I understand why this should surprise anyone.

You're talking about enough current debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars per household and that doesn't even included tens of trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities. Yes the US can print its way out of that debt...but at the risk of hyperinflation...numerous banana republics tried that route already.

That's a whole lot of risk to simply pretend doesn't exist. My sense is however that this serves as a huge wakeup call...now if the people in Washington will only smell the coffee.

Don't hate the player...hate the game. We believe in markets

[Belmont31R]

IF you think that the US doesn't deserve a AAA rating, then you don't understand what a AAA rating means. It a proxy for the mathmatical probability of a default. There is zero chance of the US defaulting. It's in the Consitution and even if it weren't we can print our way out of it, just like Greenspan said.

"But, but the level of debt" I can hear you all sputtering. Sorry, but you and the dumb-asses at S&P are trying to confuse two issues. Yes, the level of debt is onerous and very distructive- but we will always have money to pay the bills. It may not be worth the paper it is printed on, but the wheel barrows will roll.

That is why this S&P thing is bullshit. The rating is not trully a measure of how good the investment it is- just default risk. It doesn't factor in, or it is not supposed to factor in, monetary issues.

If monetary issues were a reason for downgrading, the uncertian (to be polite) or the short (to be realistic) lifetime of the Euro would be weighing more heavily on European bond ratings.

If you guys want to continue this weird masochistic-Schadenfreude, go right ahead. I'm not saying the debt isn't an issue, I'm just saying that this rating is bullshit.

All this is, is another reason for the Wall Street money changers to make a buck off of the churn.



Its in the Constitution....:D:rolleyes:




Obama was threatening default because I doubt he would direct his czars to pay the debt first, and then he'd give another speech about evil jet owners, the rich, and how the Tea Party has kept him from everyone realizing the Obama dream.


I have zero doubt he would let us default (even though its in the constitution). He is a radical not a sane American. He has no ties to the US like we all have. He hates America and what it stands for. Look how he accused our troops of air raiding villages and his ties to radicals before the spotlight came on him.

[Palmguy]

That is a huge oversimplification. It is simply a measure of the quality of the bond. It's not an all-or-nothing thing. It's a rating, similar to the rating of any other investment. It's a free market and a free market relies on entities that can quantify market risk.

Similarly to a credit rating, when you get a loan a bank is investing in you based on the quality of your rating. The more risk the bank assumes the larger your interest rate. It doesn't mean you're likely or even will possibly default if your credit score is 680 rather than 780. You just pay more interest. I'm not sure I understand why this should surprise anyone.

You're talking about enough current debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars per household and that doesn't even included tens of trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities. Yes the US can print its way out of that debt...but at the risk of hyperinflation...numerous banana republics tried that route already.

That's a whole lot of risk to simply pretend doesn't exist. My sense is however that this serves as a huge wakeup call...now if the people in Washington will only smell the coffee.

Don't hate the player...hate the game. We believe in markets

Thanks GSJ. And just to add, while there may not be a technical risk of default thanks to the printing press (even though really there is), the quality of an investment in this country is inversely proportional to the likelihood of that investment being repaid with dollars that are as worthless as Monopoly money.

[glocktogo]

Yes, the level of debt is onerous and very distructive- but we will always have money to pay the bills.

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. If you don't think the U.S. would default on its debt if it came to it, you're crazy. IF we will always have money to pay our bills, then why hasn't the Fed simply printed $14T and paid the debt off? Of course one reason is they were too busy printing $16T to give to the banks. But the other reason is that it simply doesn't work that way. Fiat U.S. currency has to be backed by the full faith AND CREDIT of the United States. What, you think the U.S. is suddenly going to start paying in National parks, aircraft carriers and B-2 bombers? There isn't enough gold in Ft. Knox (or wherever they put it) to pay up. If the money's no good, the creditors will not accept it. If the markers are called in, the U.S. will be unable to pay and the default will happen whether the COTUS says it won't or not.

The real question becomes to whom is the debt owed? If it isn't paid, of what consequence is it to the U.S.? Even a global trade embargo against the U.S. because it's a deadbeat, won't necessarily work against us. If the debt were wiped away, along with the trade imbalance, we're forced to become self-reliant again. We'll be forced to sweep the trash out of DC before we can re-forge alliances globally. You can bet that there will be countries and entrepreneurs that would want in on the action.

Quite frankly, we're not getting out of this debacle unscathed and neither will the politicos in DC. All they're trying to do is hold out long enough to make what they can and squirrel it away before being swept out. That it's further damaging the country is irrelevant to them. I'm betting that a system crash will be required before we can reverse the current trend. There's no way that politicians, who are beholden to way too many voters and campaign contributors will ever have the intestinal fortitude to make the tough decisions. It will have to be made for them in the end. :(

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

If the money's no good, the creditors will not accept it. If the markers are called in, the U.S. will be unable to pay and the default will happen whether the COTUS says it won't or not.


You have the mechanism wrong, besides having us on some quasi gold standard. The bonds are written and the payment terms decided, there is no "not accepting it". "Markers" are not called in, the debt reaches it maturity and until then the coupons are paid. The issue comes when you issue new debt, which will have to have a higher rate of return to compensate for higher inflation/decreased buying power of dollar. And here lies a real problem, from what I've seen a lot of the govt financing being done is short term debt, so if (really when) we start to try to inflate our way out of this, our debt payments will rise as the short term debt comes due and we have to refinance it at higher rates.

[glocktogo]

From S&P itself:



I'm done trying to explain this. Re-read my posts till you either understand it or keep your incorrect views because they fit your political views. I'm am not arguing about debt ratios, tax rates, printing money. This is my thread and it was about the change in debt rating. Yes, we have a budget problem that is a huge threat to the financial system and even our monetary system- but that is not what this thread is about.

It is about an analyst making an incorrect call on the debt rating because he is mixing apples and oranges.

The risk of default by the US is zero. You may not like where the dollar is when you get paid, but the ratings are not meant to include monetary risk, just risk of default.

BTW, it doesn't matter what S&P or Moody's or any of these Wall Street twats decree- that just leads to paperwork shuffling and new pronouncements from the politburo and Mao's coffin about the demise of the US. All that really matters is people going to the Treasury window and saying "More bonds please" as they hand over their money.

If it's that simple, then the answer is still no. I wouldn't invest in the US until the US learns to live within its means. In order for that to happen, there's going to have to be a regime change in Congress and the Oval Office. The people in charge right now have no concept of the money they so lightly throw around, nor the damage they're doing to the economy.

One of the basic tenets of smart investing is to never invest in something you don't understand. I simply cannot fathom how Congress is going to learn to spend less. I do not understand how the Obama administration believes you can tax the country into prosperity. Therefore investing in the US is foolish in my estimation. They were told what it would take to retain a AAA credit rating and they failed to heed that warning. The S&P statement you posted even says that:
They speak to one aspect of an investment decision—credit quality—which in some cases, may include our view of what investors can expect to recover in the event of default. Apparently, few people (including the S&P) agree with your zero chance of default opinion. Regardless, even their statement includes a qualifier.

Personally I think downgrading the credit rating of the US is an additional straw on the camel's back in getting rid of the trash in DC. I guess I'm at a loss as to why you're so butthurt over the downgrade. Did it cost you a substantial sum of money? :confused:

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

From S&P itself:


While investors may use credit ratings in making investment decisions, Standard & Poor?s ratings are NOT indications of investment merit. In other words, the ratings are not buy, sell, or hold recommendations, or a measure of asset value. Nor are they intended to signal the suitability of an investment. They speak to one aspect of an investment decision—credit quality—which in some cases, may include our view of what investors can expect to recover in the event of default.

I'm done trying to explain this. Re-read my posts till you either understand it or keep your incorrect views because they fit your political views. I'm am not arguing about debt ratios, tax rates, printing money. This is my thread and it was about the change in debt rating. Yes, we have a budget problem that is a huge threat to the financial system and even our monetary system- but that is not what this thread is about.

It is about an analyst making an incorrect call on the debt rating because he is mixing apples and oranges.

The risk of default by the US is zero. You may not like where the dollar is when you get paid, but the ratings are not meant to include monetary risk, just risk of default.

BTW, it doesn't matter what S&P or Moody's or any of these Wall Street twats decree- that just leads to paperwork shuffling and new pronouncements from the politburo and Mao's coffin about the demise of the US. All that really matters is people going to the Treasury window and saying "More bonds please" as they hand over their money.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Guess what Goldman Sachs is investing in? Can't, huh? Aluminum. Metal, not futures. Thousands of tons of it. It is being warehoused in the Detroit area. Seems those abandoned warehouses are good for something. Story here. (http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-goldmans-money-machine-warehouses-090810768.html)

I'll be damned, those sly f*cks. :no:

Thanks for the link, it's of interest to me.

[Palmguy]

From S&P itself:



I'm done trying to explain this. Re-read my posts till you either understand it or keep your incorrect views because they fit your political views. I'm am not arguing about debt ratios, tax rates, printing money. This is my thread and it was about the change in debt rating. Yes, we have a budget problem that is a huge threat to the financial system and even our monetary system- but that is not what this thread is about.

It is about an analyst making an incorrect call on the debt rating because he is mixing apples and oranges.

The risk of default by the US is zero. You may not like where the dollar is when you get paid, but the ratings are not meant to include monetary risk, just risk of default.

BTW, it doesn't matter what S&P or Moody's or any of these Wall Street twats decree- that just leads to paperwork shuffling and new pronouncements from the politburo and Mao's coffin about the demise of the US. All that really matters is people going to the Treasury window and saying "More bonds please" as they hand over their money.

It really isn't as black and white as you are trying to paint it. You can ignore debt ratios, taxation, monetary policy, fiscal policy, or whatever else but guess what, S&P says that all of those issues (and more!) are factors in their determination of sovereign credit ratings.

From "Sovereign Government Rating Methodology And Assumptions" (S&P):


8. The five key factors that form the foundation of our sovereign credit analysis are:
· Institutional effectiveness and political risks, reflected in the political score.
· Economic structure and growth prospects, reflected in the economic score.
· External liquidity and international investment position, reflected in the external score.
· Fiscal performance and flexibility, as well as debt burden, reflected in the fiscal score.
· Monetary flexibility, reflected in the monetary score.

Each of those are then broken down in detail later in the 43 page document.

People aren't going to keep coming to that window if they think we have our head planted firmly up our ass.

[montanadave]

I'll be damned, those sly f*cks. :no:

Thanks for the link, it's of interest to me.

Investment banks like Goldman-Sachs hire the brightest graduates from the top schools and pay them money they cannot earn anywhere else. Then they turn them loose to game the system and make money, as much and as fast as they can.

Meanwhile, we have laws and regulations written by our esteemed members of Congress (under the tutelage of lobbyists from Goldman-Sachs and others) which are enforced by underfunded and understaffed regulatory agencies staffed by those who couldn't get a job with Goldman-Sachs and settled for a civil service job.

Who do you suppose comes out ahead in this contest?

[glocktogo]

The wonky time stamp thing is making it hard to follow these things.

[Rmplstlskn]

Who do you suppose comes out ahead in this contest?

The TAXPAYER? LOL!

Rmpl

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

Agreed. I would crawl up their kiesters with every IRS agent I could spare. These yo-yos pull this stunt now? Gunatanamo bay vacation for these jerks.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Investment banks like Goldman-Sachs hire the brightest graduates from the top schools and pay them money they cannot earn anywhere else. Then they turn them loose to game the system and make money, as much and as fast as they can.

Meanwhile, we have laws and regulations written by our esteemed members of Congress (under the tutelage of lobbyists from Goldman-Sachs and others) which are enforced by underfunded and understaffed regulatory agencies staffed by those who couldn't get a job with Goldman-Sachs and settled for a civil service job.

Who do you suppose comes out ahead in this contest?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/elitists.jpg

[VooDoo6Actual]

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911