Carbine shouldering technique

[GTifosi]

If nothing else, it makes all the weight in front of your hand harder to get moving because there is more out there than if the fulcrum your hand represents were further forward. Then once moving the mass will be harder to stop for the same reason.

Muzzle flip will likely be more prominant and slower to recover regardless of how good the brake/compensator, transitioning or sweeping between multiple targets will be a bit slower.

[akston]

Perhaps someone with more experience than I could chime in, but I believe it's an issue of muzzle stability and multiple target acquisition.

oops, GTifosi beat me to it.

[99HMC4]

Okay a few questions on proper hold af the carbine. First off not that I do but why is holding the mag well considered wrong? I find my normal comfort zone is to basically use the mag well as my hand stop, meaning I grasp the hand guard then slide back till my palm hits the lower. I don't grip the mag well. Both elbows tucked in pointing down. I know there's a lot of ways but whats the main concensus of mag well gripping?

[VIP3R 237]

I think that is why it's called a shooting style. There are so many different shooting styles being taught out there i think it just comes down to what fits you the best. I used to be a magwell gripper cause as a lefty i can hit the mag release with my thumb. But after adding an ambi release and playing with an extended rail i'm having fun with the magpul dynamics style. Each style has pro's and con's and its all personal preference imo.

[opmike]

I'm unaware of any accomplished shooter, instructor, action competition guy, etc. that uses or advocates such a technique on carbines today.

I believe that speaks volumes, and the reasons why become pretty obvious once you look at the basic physics involved.

The more barrel/handguard you have hanging out in FRONT of your support hand, the less mechanical advantage you have over the rifle when transitioning and in the mitigation of recoil. The only reason I can think of having your grip more towards the magazine-well is if you, for some reason, plan on having the rifle pointed at a target for a LONG time as it can help with fatigue, or if follow-up and transitions aren't going to be important.

You'll see some some target and bullseye shooters using a more inboard grip, but they have a much different requirement (typically) than someone using carbine in an offensive/defensive capacity. Also, some of the various crouching stances use similar approaches, but I'm speaking mainly with respect to standing while engaging targets at reasonable ranges.

This explains it somewhat:

http://youtu.be/cZi_kDkOjIQ

[CaptainDooley]

Gripping the (or near the) magwell with your support hand. I had no trouble following it, but you have to be able to decipher which order they were actually posted in, since everything went wonky with the forum clock.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You have an unclear antecendent.

What is "it"?

[Underwhere]

If nothing else, it makes all the weight in front of your hand harder to get moving because there is more out there than if the fulcrum your hand represents were further forward. Then once moving the mass will be harder to stop for the same reason.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You have an unclear antecendent.

What is "it"?

[Underwhere]

Gripping the (or near the) magwell with your support hand. I had no trouble following it, but you have to be able to decipher which order they were actually posted in, since everything went wonky with the forum clock.

Ah. Makes sense now thanks.

[Dirtyboy333]

I agree with what every1 else has said but I would like to add that in addition to the magwell grip offering an advantage to fatigue, in my experience its much easier to make slower more accurate shots. So, i believe the magwell grip also adds stability due to the fact the shooters arm isnt so stretched out which i guess in some way is related to fatigue anyway.:p

[JSantoro]

Magwell hold results in a lot of otherwise-uncontrolled barrel floating around waaaaay out in front of you. It can be enough mass to move regardless of how tight you clench on the gun, and clenching may induce enough muscle shake to make it unstable, anyway. Add a can, that's MORE mass you can't fully control in ways that have little to do with outright strength. Add movement to that, things get frickin complicated.

It's possible to get enough of your fingers wrapped around the magwell to hang over the ejection port and possibly cause malfunctions that wouldn't otherwise happen. And, I saw one cat with fingers that were Lewis-Black-freaky-long get his social finger whacked pretty good when it dipped into the ejection port and in between the bolt face and the chamber when he fired.

In one case, in combat, I saw a kid doing a magwell hold clench the gun so hard that he popped the welds on the magazine.

No matter how "good" or "right" it may feel to the shooter, there's lots of valid reasons as to why it's not the best idea in the world.

[glocktogo]

Okay a few questions on proper hold of the carbine. First off not that I do but why is holding the mag well considered wrong? I find my normal comfort zone is to basically use the mag well as my hand stop, meaning I grasp the hand guard then slide back till my palm hits the lower. I don't grip the mag well. Both elbows tucked in pointing down. I know there's a lot of ways but whats the main concensus of mag well gripping?

From a traditional bullseye marksmanship style, there's nothing wrong with gripping the magwell or using it as a handstop. You're shooting long distance from unstable positions, with no real emphasis on speed of engagement.

From a dynamic carbine shooting perspective, it's a distinct disadvantage. you cannot control recoil as well for fast follow up shots and you can't drive the gun from target to target as fast or stop on the next target with as much precision. It's a matter of physics and the fulcrum effect that GTifosi described.

To convince yourself, do a VTAC 2X2X2 or 1/2 & 1/2 drill using a magwell grip on the clock. Then do one using a grip that extends the off hand as far forward and as high up on the forend as possible, using it to pull the rifle into the pocket. You will find that not only are your times faster, but your hits will be more centered with the high forward grip. You simply control the muzzle of the gun better.

[Surf]

IMO and from what I have seen over the progression of close combat shooting, the magwell hold is a direct descendant of the old school MP5 shooting style. When the transition from MP5 to M4's as primary entry type weapons, many of the CQB instructors were classically trained from the H&K fighting school days, myself included. This caused the same combat or CQB type of instructors to translate the tucked elbow, wring the towel grip, from the MP5 directly over the to M4. Unfortunately the weapons vary and the same technique for the MP5 does not translate to be the most efficient technique with the M4's and the muzzle mass beyond the magwell.

Of course we need to be able to vary our technique and adapt to the situation and the type of shooting that we are doing. I use a more outstretched grip as a default,which mimics my shotgun competition days, but I am also a good enough shooter to know what to use given the situation. If I want more precision and time and distance is on my side, then I might assume more of a bullseye / precision shooter type of hold, where I might blade quite a bit, get good skeletal support and more close to a magwell hold.

This explains it and shows what my "default hold" looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77p7kukuxVs

[Funkenstein]

While I would tend to agree, I think it is ultimately which is the more effective grip for the shooter.

Running tables 3 and 4 for combat marksmanship in the USMC, 99% of Marines (at least from the times I have qualified) use the magwell grip, as well as the combat instructors.

However, from experience, there is both an advantage and disadvantage to this grip style. First off the advantage for me is that my hand is already touching the magazine, making speed reloads very speedy. The disadvantage is that if holding or pulling back too hard on the mag while firing, the mag will either cause a double feed or a stovepipe because of the angle change. I have only seen this on very used magazines that were nothing near the quality of say a PMAG.

That being said, I use a variation of grip styles in different situations, but the mag grip has been very successful for me. Last month I qualed with only 3 rounds outside of the kill areas, two of which were meant for the t-box.

Funk