View Full Version : Vickers/Hackathorn Centennial 1911 Class AAR
Hackathorn/Vickers Centennial 1911 Class August 6-8
Background. I have been running a Wilson Combat CQB since 2002. My lovely wife bought it for me as a gift right after we got married (good woman). It has seen more shooting schools than I can count and has always performed well. At the time, I really did not know much about 1911’s in regards to who made a good one and who didn’t. Well after this class, I do now! Wilson Combat is at the top of the list for a FIGHTING 1911 and was HEAVILY endorsed by LAV and Ken during the class (which says a lot as these guys always call a spade a spade).
Day 1: We got together for some intros, day’s events, safety brief (real world) and various stages we would be shooting. The good folks at Wilson Combat handed out a VERY nice bag with all kinds of cool stuff in it. Each student received a T-shirt, one of all their various cleaning, polishing and lubricating products, take down tool, 8rd mag and other odds and ends. There had to be well over $100 dollars’ worth of kit in the bag (not counting the case itself)!
For those of you that are history buffs, man there is a lot of good info here. LAV and Ken are walking encyclopedias when it comes to weapons & Military history. They set up some neat stages that were taken from actual real world events using weapons from that period! Simply fantastic and gave us, the students, an “8X10” glossy of what it was like to fight in that particular situation.
We covered all the fundamentals along with timed drills thrown in. Team drills were also used. This is always a good time and adds stress to the drill. Ken and LAV also talked about some 1911 history and included Mr. Wilson in a lot of the conversations (including the history of the “Bill Drill”).
Day 2: We broke up into two groups. Group one went with LAV for some accuracy training, moving and shooting, etc. The other group went with Ken in the shoot house for some room clearing training and to a do another “period” stage involving a historical event.
My group started off with THE LAV. Larry quickly explained to us that “Santa Clause” was down at the other range and it was time for some disciplined shooting. While I knew what was coming, a good majority of the other students had never seen Mr. Vickers before. He was in rare form and everyone learned what it means to shoot a 1911 accurately. While many of the students have trained with other instructors, many were shocked at what they couldn’t get away with in this level of training. The simple fact is that LAV is an accuracy Nazi and most people do not live up to his standards of excellence (even though they believe that they are well trained).
We broke for lunch around noon and had a great catered meal. Very well done and no one left hungry.
Switching gears, my group was split into two groups and we headed down to “Santa Clauses” (Mr. Hackathorn) shoot house and to another range for some historical re-enactment drills.
I have to think that some students were relieved to do this as LAV was pushing them farther than they had ever been before. Well they were in for a shock as Santa was about to make them clear rooms and shooting crappy groups wasn’t going to fly there either.
My group hooked up with Mr. Joe R. for the historical shoot. In this event, you had to knock down poppers before the bad guy could get the FA Uzi up and running. For practice, we each took turns seeing how fast we could knock down the poppers. Since my group included Stony (VSM Instructor) and several of the WC guys, you had to bring your “A” game in order to compete with them.
In order to beat the bad guy with the Uzi, you basically had to shoot 5 poppers in about 3.10 seconds (or better) from a draw. You also had to wait for the bad guy to go for the Uzi before you could draw your 1911. This made you shift your attention from the targets to the movement of the bad guy. Somewhat difficult to say the least and many found out that the bad guy often won.
Next, our group moved onto the shoot house. Put on our body armor and received instruction from Ken about how to properly clear rooms and enter doors. A safety lecture was also stressed. Many had never done this type of thing before and learned just how hard it really is. Luckily my group had some really switched on shooters and our group was the best of the bunch at it.
We finished up the day around 5, got cleaned up and started the “show and tell” section of the class. Ken, LAV, Mr. Wilson and Mr. John Miller (US Army Marksmanship unit armorer) brought in some RARE 1911’s that many have never seen before. Very cool to say the least. We also got a HUGE dose of the 1911 history by some of the most knowledgeable 1911 shooters, gunsmiths and collectors in the WORLD!
During this lecture, there was a lot of talk of Col. Cooper and his involvement with the 1911 platform. Mr. Hackathorn (a GunSite instructor and personal friend of Col. Cooper) shared intimate details about the Colonel’s opinions/thoughts that have never really come out before. Mr. Hackathorn also made a very important statement that Mr. Vickers is the next generation Col. Cooper. He (LAV) is taking the 1911, training and general weapon knowledge to next level and expanding on the teaching and ideas the Colonel had established. This is very high praise from one of the World’s finest shooters and instructors.
Day 3: This was the operator section of the course where we learned how to take EVERYTHING out of the 1911. Many (including myself) have never done a full detailed strip and it was an eye opener. This part alone was worth the price of admission and really gave me an appreciation for how WC builds their 1911’s. There are so many ways to screw the pooch when building one of these guns and WC does everything the RIGHT way.
LAV gave us a detailed descriptions of things to look for (if the part was made or fitted properly). Mr. Miller also discussed how to test extractor tension, chamber fit, etc, etc.
With the guns apart, we cleaned everything, oiled internal parts and then broke for a quick lunch. After lunch, we re-assembled everything back into the gun and function checked it. Taking things out was somewhat hard, putting things back in was a big learning curve.
I feel 10 million times more confident in regards to stripping this gun down, checking for fit issues, IDing bad parts and what to do PM’s on.
For those attending this class in Oct or next year in CA, here are some things to have on hand:
1. Cleaning rags/towel
2. Cleaning supplies and lube
3. Punch kit (at least one or two small punches)
4. Flat head screw driver (one that will fit your grip panels)
5. Non-marring hammer (not a must have, but a good idea)
6. Magnified classes (if your eyesight is poor)
7. Safety glasses (as parts tend to fly out of this gun hitting walls 15 feet away or breaking ceiling lights).
A good time was had by all, everyone learned a lot (from shooting to history to maintenance) and a special thanks to the WC crew for coming and sponsoring this class! Great group of guys that really can shoot well (which isn’t common for a gun manufacturing company).
C4
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Colt Rail Gun
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LAV's WC 1911
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Mr. Hackathorn doing his LAV imitation.
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30 cal slut
08-09-11, 13:31
While I knew what was coming, a good majority of the other students had never seen Mr. Vickers before. He was in rare form and everyone learned what it means to shoot a 1911 accurately. While many of the students have trained with other instructors, many were shocked at what they couldn’t get away with in this level of training. The simple fact is that LAV is an accuracy Nazi and most people do not live up to his standards of excellence (even though they believe that they are well trained).
F***ing awesome. :D
Mr. Miller
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C4iGRANT's CQB
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Guide Rod's sharp edges removed.
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LAV fixing peoples guns.
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Great write up, Grant. I'll add my 2 cents worth.
I felt this class was more of a fun class than a serious training class. The historical stages that we did were a lot of fun. But I felt like there were some pretty important topics that we didn't even talk about, like malfunctions. Of course, with the 1911 most people got to practice clearing malfunctions on their own during the different events.
I enjoyed LAV and Ken Hackathorn tag-teaming the instruction. Ken is awesome and I would love to take another class with him. I have taken a couple of classes with Vickers before and would take another class with him in a heartbeat, as well. I don't know if it was the unique nature of the class or having Ken there as co-lead instructor or the TV cameras, but that class was Larry on about "9". Go to a class with just him and students and you'll get The LAV on "11".
The classroom portion of the class was fantastic. It was something else to see people in the class raise their hand for help and have Bill Wilson come over for some one on one. During the classroom part they also held a drawing for some really nice prizes. The grand prize was a $1000 gift certificate for gunsmithing work from Wilson Combat. That was won by a guy with 10 Kobold watches and an Escalade. There is no justice! I won a Raven Concealment 1911 holster and mag pouch, so I can't complain too much.
For me the shoot house was the best part of the class. I could have done that for days. I also enjoyed the stage with the Uzi, mostly because I got a little one on one with Joe R. of S&T Firearms Training and Consulting. He's a VSM instructor and all around good dude.
All in all it was great instruction and a fun and entertaining class. Now I'll go back to wearing flip-flops and shooting a Glock.
Thanks bprice01.
Let's talk about malfunctions for a second. I experienced two of them out of about 600rds. The first one happened on the VERY FIRST magazine. I finished the drill, brought my gun to the low ready and the full length guide rod slid out and hit the ground. Uh, WTF was that? My initial thought was that I had screwed the pooch when I re-assembled my gun. This wasn't the case. The head on the guide rod snapped off. I had never seen this before, but was told that it is somewhat common.
So those of you running a full length guide rod, you should consider switching to this: http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wire-Recoil-Spring-Kit-Full-Size/productinfo/614/
My next malfunction was the one that the 1911 is famous for, feed way stoppage.
Less my broken part, my WC CQB ran pretty well I think with only one malfunction.
We did see a fair amount of malfunctions in the class (at least down at my end). Personally, I think many of them were related to not cleaning their guns and or lack of lube. If you are not going to do these things (along with spring PM's), the 1911 is NOT your gun!
C4
great read and tons of info grant. i will be on the next years class in CA.
Really sorry to have missed this class but I just couldn't move things for Thur-Fri to make it happen.
I talked to LAV yesterday and he said it was a great class! I did get some really exciting news from him so it made up for missing the class....:big_boss: I will share that shortly in the 1911 forum.
Really bummed that I had to skip this class and jealous of those who were able to run it. I am sure there was a lot of great knowledge being absorbed.
Great write up Grant. Was Ken running his Novak?
Really sorry to have missed this class but I just couldn't move things for Thur-Fri to make it happen.
I talked to LAVyesterday and he said it was a great class! I did get some really exciting news from him so it made up for missing the class....:big_boss: I will share that shortly in the 1911 forum.
Really bummed that I had to skip this class and jealous of those who were able to run it. I am sure there was a lot of great knowledge being absorbed.
Great write up Grant. Was Ken running his Novack?
Sorry you couldn't make it as well. Was a great class and a MUST GO TO for a 1911 shooter. Hopefully you will be able to make the Oct. class.
Ken used his WC for the majority (if not all) of the class.
C4
Ballistic Agency
08-10-11, 11:13
Grant, it was good to meet you in person finally during this class.
Several things stood out to me in this class...
About 2/3 or more of the class was running a Wilson gun. That should say something to others looking to buy a combat 1911.
The number of rail guns there was surprising. I figured there would be less since it was somewhat of a historical class.
There were FAR fewer malfunctions in the class than I thought there would be. I saw two malfs that were ammo induced. One was a broken part. The others that I saw were dry guns at the end of the day. Not too shabby considering the rain and the round count were washing away any lube guys had at the beginning of the day.
I thought it was awesome that the Wilson guys stuck around to let anyone shoot any of the Wilson guns and ammo that they wanted to. I particularly like the XTAC compact and the compact 38 super.
LAV and Ken toned it back a little for the cameras, but overall they were still in full form. Guys that have been to their classes know what that means. :)
The historical drills WERE SO DAMN COOL. Shooting the Uzi was particularly fun for me since I don't have a lot of time on full auto guns.
Everyone there was really nice and hung out together at the end of the day at the hotel bar or restaurant.
John Miller is a treasure and should be in a museum somewhere. The guy was blowing me away with the amount of data he has committed to memory.
Very cool to see Hack pass on the Cooper torch to LAV... and Hack should definitely get credit for being the guy bridging the two.
Overall, fantastic class. I was tired but a little sad that it was over so soon!
***Edited for typos.
Very cool to see Hack pass on the Cooper torch to LAV... and Hack should definitely get credit for being the guy bridging the two.
I could not agree more.
I know from speaking to Larry immediately after the statement was made that he was both humbled and flattered to say the least. He was very honored to be handed the torch.
Ken, Larry, and everyone at Grey Group Training would like to thank Wilson Combat for being such a gracious sponsor of the class. They went above and beyond to help make this class such a huge success. It is a huge reason this was the “1911 Centennial Celebration” event to truly honor the 1911 handgun and its one hundred(and counting) years of success.
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/wilsoncombat2.jpg
Wilson Combat
www.wilsoncombat.com
Ken doesn't have a logo or website. :D
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Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com
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Grey Group Training
www.greygrouptraining.com
Larry Vickers
08-10-11, 12:43
Thanx for the great feedback guys- class was a blast and I am sure the students felt that way also
Ken and I did tone back the hardcore training side a bit to make it a little more entertaining as it was a once in a lifetime event- trust me everyone will look back and say ' I am glad I was there'
The be coined ' the Jeff Cooper of this generation' by Ken just blew me away - I am both humbled and honored to be thought of in that way and I promise to uphold the tradition and carry the torch forward to the best of my abilities
Be safe - if your in the October or Jan 2012 Cali class good on ya- if you are not start beating on Grey Group for the stand by list; these
events are not to be missed!!
Cheers
LAV
What a time for my first post here....I got to go to this class because my son saw the notice and said "dad we have to do this one",,,so I jumped on board for what was a really cool ride.
I would like to echo what the others said about the class overall...I have done other classes but this one was special on all fronts, histroy, two top instructors at once, the knowledge of Mr. John Miller and the inspiration of Colonel Tim....(the rest of us have no excuses...what a man, what an attitude).
A little aside to Bprice...when I was your age I couldn't begin to afford to travel, pay for class and ammo and hotels etc. to have even considered attending a class like this...but thanks for your service and keep the wind beneath your wings. All good things come to he who waits and acts.
As to malfunctions, I saw a few but the ones I saw were mostly ammo or operator error enduced. I ran a brand new Colt rail gun with a factory 6lb. trigger and less than 100 rounds through it before the class...my only malfunction was my first mag on day 2 when I didn't get the mag seated...other than that, I had no issues other than a really stiff trigger and timer shock.
The only drawback was the sudden loss of lights in the classroom on day 3...I guess the Wilson professionals didn't need as much illumination as the rest of us....(lol....and i have since changed my shorts)
Finally...thanks to everyone who attended....great group of people and a special thanks to Wilson for all of their contributions and to Ken's gun club guys who did a great job helping at the range, LAV who ground on my gun and showed me how to improve my trigger control...this was kind of a special treat for some of us regular citizen type people.
Excellent write-ups. I really wanted to make it but was not in a position to go. My marital capital had to spent elsewhere this summer. The pic of the dude in the iron chariot (i.e., wheelchair) was just freakin' awesome and very motivating.
Edited to add: the first pistol class I ever took was advanced pistol technique, with LAV. I ran my 1911 and he taught me more in that day about the 1911 than I learned before or since. To study under he and Hackathorn in a 1911-only class over 3 days would be fantastic.
Dudes
You making me miss my CQB
not cool................ just not cool
wilsoncombatrep
08-10-11, 14:42
What a time for my first post here....I got to go to this class because my son saw the notice and said "dad we have to do this one",,,so I jumped on board for what was a really cool ride.
I would like to echo what the others said about the class overall...I have done other classes but this one was special on all fronts, histroy, two top instructors at once, the knowledge of Mr. John Miller and the inspiration of Colonel Tim....(the rest of us have no excuses...what a man, what an attitude).
A little aside to Bprice...when I was your age I couldn't begin to afford to travel, pay for class and ammo and hotels etc. to have even considered attending a class like this...but thanks for your service and keep the wind beneath your wings. All good things come to he who waits and acts.
As to malfunctions, I saw a few but the ones I saw were mostly ammo or operator error enduced. I ran a brand new Colt rail gun with a factory 6lb. trigger and less than 100 rounds through it before the class...my only malfunction was my first mag on day 2 when I didn't get the mag seated...other than that, I had no issues other than a really stiff trigger and timer shock.
The only drawback was the sudden loss of lights in the classroom on day 3...I guess the Wilson professionals didn't need as much illumination as the rest of us....(lol....and i have since changed my shorts)
Finally...thanks to everyone who attended....great group of people and a special thanks to Wilson for all of their contributions and to Ken's gun club guys who did a great job helping at the range, LAV who ground on my gun and showed me how to improve my trigger control...this was kind of a special treat for some of us regular citizen type people.
We don't need no stinkin lights! LOL Nice to meet you all!
Grant thanks for the detailed AAR and great pics. I wish I was able to attend.
wilsoncombatrep
08-10-11, 17:30
I don't know how fast you have to launch a recoil spring plug to make major, but a 18lb spring will definitely get it going fast enough to take out a light bulb:rolleyes:
Guys, the WC group had a blast, and we were honored to be part of this special class! We always have an enlightening time with The LAV and "Uncle Ken". The class as a group was enthusiastic, and it always does your heart good to be around fellow shooters, especially 1911 lovers.
If you ever need motivation to enjoy everyday on the range, you simply need to watch "The Colonel" from his wheelchair, .... Without anyone helping with the chair. I'm talking full "EL Presidente" drills! Hat's off to you Colonel!
I'm still traveling, and will get more up soon....BTW, it was great to finally meet you Grant!
Can anybody tell an approximate round count?
somewhere in the 425 area
CommackBoy
08-10-11, 18:54
Awesome
Can anybody tell an approximate round count?
400-500 I think.
C4
This truly was a once in a lifetime event and I'm really glad I carved out the time to attend. As a VSM I've taken a number of Ken and Larry's courses, but there is always something to be learned. There is something about the synergy of Ken and Larry together that really adds to a class.
It was intersting to hear some of the students who have had classes from other instructors comment about how some of what they were taught was new to them. This is one of the many reasons why I'm a huge advocate of the Vickers Shooting Method and of Ken and "The LAV" as instructors.
Getting to meet John Miller after hearing Larry mention numerous times the "Miller Hard Fit Method" for fitting a 1911 barrel was an honor.
It was truly humbling to meet LTC Tim (I'll leave out his last name). Talk about keeping a positive attitude.
Finally, a sincere thanks to the Wilson Combat crew.
Johnny Rico
08-10-11, 22:35
Sounds awesome! Thanks for the detailed write-up. Too bad the California class is already filled up. :sad:
How helpful/valuable do you consider the 3rd day of instruction? Like you I choose to run a 1911 (Les Baer Concept II). And while I think I am proficient with it, I do wish I knew more about its inner workings. John Jardine offers a class every few months that covers material similar to the 3rd day of the LAV/Hackathorn Centennial offering. I'm thinking of taking it and then following up with Yavapai Firearms Academy (Louis Awerbuck) handgun course.
I do want to take a couple of classes with LAV, especially the 1911 operator and carbine courses. The problem is that I have to stay local for the foreseeable future as I have a young family. Thankfully there are good training options in the area (at least for pistols).
Sounds awesome! Thanks for the detailed write-up. Too bad the California class is already filled up. :sad:
How helpful/valuable do you consider the 3rd day of instruction? Like you I choose to run a 1911 (Les Baer Concept II). And while I think I am proficient with it, I do wish I knew more about its inner workings. John Jardine offers a class every few months that covers material similar to the 3rd day of the LAV/Hackathorn Centennial offering. I'm thinking of taking it and then following up with Yavapai Firearms Academy (Louis Awerbuck) handgun course.
I do want to take a couple of classes with LAV, especially the 1911 operator and carbine courses. The problem is that I have to stay local for the foreseeable future as I have a young family. Thankfully there are good training options in the area (at least for pistols).
Get in on the wait list for the CA class as there is usually someone that backs out at the last minute.
Day 3 was worth it X 10 if you really want to know about how your 1911 goes together.
C4
eternal24k
08-11-11, 10:51
this looks like a fantastic class. Thanks for the writeup. A 1911 class is a must on my list
wilsoncombatrep
08-11-11, 18:33
LAV is famous for saying that "if you treat your fighting handgun like you treat your Lawnmower, get a Glock(not a 1911)". If you aren't comfortable with all the details of really maintaining(including detail stripping) and trouble shooting your 1911, day 3 is vitally important....don't miss it;)
LAV is famous for saying that "if you treat your fighting handgun like you treat your Lawnmower, get a Glock(not a 1911)". If you are comfortable with all the details of really maintaining(including detail stripping) and trouble shooting your 1911, day 3 is vitally important....don't miss it;)
I could not agree more.
:D
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc447/bprice01/photo4.jpg
Dave running his Vickers pistol in the shoot house
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc447/bprice01/photo3.jpg
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc447/bprice01/photo2.jpg
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc447/bprice01/photo1.jpg
My Springfield Armory Mil-Spec
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc447/bprice01/photo6.jpg
Ken doing some filing on my frame
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc447/bprice01/photo5.jpg
Dozier Drill
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc447/bprice01/th_IMG_0870.jpg (http://s1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc447/bprice01/?action=view¤t=IMG_0870.mp4)
I learned a lot from the class. I'm a glock guy but I am learning to appreciate the 1911 more and more. My Wilson cqb makes it easy. That gun is flawless. Thanks to Larry Ken Bill, Joe, Stoney and everyone else for making this class a huge success.
Hello;
Just wanted to thank everyone involved in this class. It was a fun time and a truly exceptional opportunity for the 1911 aficionado. Larry and Ken were generous with their knowledge and pistol collections. They have a wealth of knowledge and experience and can definitely bring out the best in a shooters' capabilities. The skill levels displayed by the shooters in the group were impressive, and humbling.
I was absolutely bowled over by the incredible support offered the students by Wilson Combat. From their comprehensive goody bags to their willingness to help others with product testing and gunsmithing, they were exceptional sponsors. Getting to know the people behind the company was a real treat and engendered customer loyalty for sure. It is obvious when someone takes pride in their product as these people do.
Thanks also for the pictures being shared, I brought my camera and didn't take a single pic. Shooting, stuffing mags, listening to lectures and hydrating took all of my time. If anyone is willing to share picture files just let me know.
Best Regards,
Sean McMahon
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