View Full Version : Initial Review: Rev Eng “Firearm Control Device"
For more background on this product, check out this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66389
I received the FCD this morning. It was shipped in a thick envelope but not quite thick enough, as part of it was sticking out of the envelope. Thankfully, mine was not lost but I’d advise some bubble-wrap or something around it when shipping the production models to avoid this. No instructions were included but, once again, this wasn’t a normal shipment. Installation instructions were given online but even without them I’m sure I could have installed it no problem.
Quick pic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/DavePAL84/projects/rev-eng001.jpg
As you can see, it’s a one-piece replacement for the magazine catch. The lever goes behind the top of the bolt catch so when the magazine release is pushed it engages the bolt in the same motion.
Installation
Installation instructions given by the manufacturer were the following:
Follow these installation steps:
1) Clear firearm... by firing if at all possible :D
2) Remove upper.
(now if concerned about marring the finish, line the receiver with electrical tape)
3) With the rifle laying on right side, remove the bolt catch roll pin, punching from the rear to the front... keep the rifle on it's right side as to not lose the bolt catch spring and plunger... remove bolt catch.
4) With the rifle still laying on its right side, remove the standard magazine catch.
5) With the rifle still laying on its right side, install the FCD as you would a standard magazine catch.
6) With the rifle still laying on its right side, depress the "magazine release button"... then slide the bolt catch under the FCD.
(now if concerned about marring the finish, line the receiver with electrical tape)
7) With the rifle still laying on it's right side, install the bolt catch roll pin from the front to the rear.
Kind Regards,
I didn’t follow these directions exactly. I removed the magazine catch first and then simply removed the bolt catch. I simply removed the plunger and spring during installation and set them aside until needed. After installing the FCD, it was plainly a matter of replacing the bolt catch.
I tested magazine insertion and release and that was fine. I did notice, however, more vertical slop with the magazine with the FCD installed as compared to the LMT mag catch that I removed. This was going to be checked at the range to see if it was a, ‘qualitative issue’ or something actually legitimate.
Installed on my SBR. Note that even with my useless-aesthetic window-dressing FCG pins it fits with no problem around them
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/DavePAL84/projects/rev-eng002.jpg
You can also see the weld where the threaded post is attached to the device. Some may find issue with this but so long as it doesn't impede function I could care less.
Dry Testing
During dry testing it functioned exactly as advertised. Simply press the magazine release and pull the charging handle back and the mag dropped and the bolt locked.
Range Time
So I hit up the range this afternoon to do some testing with live rounds. In particular, I was concerned that the evident slop (however small) might either cause short-stroking or bolt drag if the mag were resting on the ground or that it might fail to strip if any downward pressure were exerted on the magazine.
Mags tested were:
Lancer L5
Lancer L5A
Lancer L5AWM
Magpul PMag
Magpul PMag Rev M
Hk-heavy-steel-things
USGI mags (with and without Ranger plates)
I fired with the magazine resting on the ground (well, not really resting; I pushed down on the rifle hard while I did, trying to see if it would cause a malfunction). Every magazine tested functioned 100%. Next, I did the same while physically pulling on the magazine (to see if rounds would fail to strip). Once again, every mag tested functioned 100%. The rifle also locked back on empty 100% as normal.
With that possibly issue addressed and subsequently discarded, it was time to do some double-feed malfunctions drills. This is where we have some changes. Instead of more traditional remedial action, with the FCD, it’s press/strip/prom date (if needed). I found that even with some very heinous double feeds, the mag fell out almost immediately after the bolt was locked to the rear. If the mag doesn’t fall out when the bolt is locked to the rear then and only then do you have to rip it out of the magwell.
So, the process is:
-Assess failure (in this case a double-feed)
-Press mag release while pulling charging handle to the rear. Bolt locks and mag falls out.
-Use your fingers to clear out any stuck rounds (if needed)
The advantage of being able to drop the magazine and hold open the bolt in one motion is that one can keep a strong hand on the grip of the fighting rifle while locking the bolt back. In particular, this ability makes clearing a double-feed very fast. When I did it today in front of a range employee he just stared and said, ‘can I see that again?’
Like with trying anything new, I inadvertently did remedial action the traditional way a couple times. It still worked. So, even if you have someone the rifle who doesn’t know how to use the FCD, it can still be cleared out through normal means.
Thoughts
I found it to be absolutely faster in regards to clearing a double-feed. Couldn’t use the shot clock today because there were other people on the range. Some will say, ‘but what if you end up with a rifle that doesn’t have one?’ and I suppose that concern has some gravity (the same applies to many aftermarket parts, like ambi selectors/mag releases/extended releases etcetera). Kinda depends on the way you want to look at it.
I doubt the FCD is compatible with the Magpul BAD lever (couldn’t check because I don’t own one) because of the back-piece added. I see it as more likely to work with a single-piece extended release such as the Phase 5 but once again, I don’t own one so I couldn’t test it. I have friends with both so some future experimentation may be in order. In the meantime, any speculation is just that: speculation.
Now, bear in mind this was just one trip to the range where I expended 250 rounds. As with anything that makes a gun do something it wasn’t designed to do, there might be some unforeseen and unknown consequences down the road. My initial impression is very positive, however. Will keep ya’ll appraised of the situation as I get more rounds downrange with the FCD installed.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-09-11, 19:40
I'm glad you like the product... :D
So far no range time for me, but its been getting a lot of play sitting around on the couch.
Even had a friend stop by today and without really explaining it too much at all, had him cycle a couple different ways. Empty mag, mag w/dummy rounds, no mag, that sort of thing. He literally about pissed himself out of glee.
But...
This was after I had gotten it dialed to the reciever I decided I was going to try it in.
Now there's words out there somewhere that pretty clearly say 'meant specifically for modern mil-spec receivers', so naturally being who I am, I put it in a 20 year old pre-ban lower.
*I'm from a ban state, the receiver is on a go to carbine where this type of device would be more desireable, and it gave oppertunity to play a little outside the box which can often tell a lot more about an item than doing the 'tab A to slot B' standardized thing.
Installation did not go according to the given instructions due to differences in the lugs the bolt release pin to. The forward lug is literally 2x as thick as what a modern one is. Between that and the longer pin that accompanied it, it was impossible to drift the pin out the front without raping the receiver where the shoulder for a magazines stop bump is meant to clear, so the other way it went.
As the pin wouldn't come out the front, it obviously wasn't going to go in that way either, but the with the FCD installed there wasn't access to the back lug.
This was easily reconciled by depressing the mag release button and putting the aluminum pin from a 1/8" pop rivet between the FCD and side of the mag well. Plenty enough room to work with long punches without straining anything.
And of course, since I wanted to be different I ended up paying for it a bit more.
While the initial install worked, it didn't work 100% of the time due to less than adiquate displacement of the bolt release unless the mag release button was pushed dead flush to a little below flush on the face of the receiver. It just couldn't be consistantly moved enough to get a good abutment on the bolt face.
'Well that's easy, just unscrew it a turn or two' you say. But wait, remember the bolt release has to be unpinned again to accomplish it.
After going through a take apart put together cycle a couple times I finally settled on setting the end of the threads flush with the face of the button and then backing it out 3 turns. This got full range of travel on the bolt release without having to jam the button down in, yet not so much that it would stress the bolt release proper if the button were jammed down that deep. From that point on its been working 100% with ease.
Now none of this is meant to be a 'bad review' or knock on the FCD in any way shape or form.
The thing is great so far and I don't honestly forsee anything coming up once it does go to the range.
I deliberately used a receiver it was not intended to be used on, and with a little fiddling, still got it to do what it is intended to do.
IOW, I would say with full commitment that all of the above tedium was entirely due to me or my equiptment and nothing to do with the FDC.
I have absolutely every intention of purchasing 2 more to put on a pair of current model lowers I have and am confident those will be boringly easy to install and use. After all, they are of the type the FCD was deliberately designed for.
I apologize for the lack of photos, but I assure you it looks no different than any of the other pix already presented in this and the other thread.
What is the pricing on these?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-09-11, 21:10
GTifosi,
Thank you for your review,
I'm glad to see that with enough determination it can work on some non-forged recievers :D
Awesome, thorough reviews. Looking forward to what the other testers have to say.
wolf_walker
08-09-11, 22:42
One of my very first "WTF?'s" upon learning how an AR worked is the issue this thing addresses. Eagerly awaiting.
I'm debating on another extended bolt release for my next build or not???I may try one of these.Any word when production units will be out?
Looking forward to what the other testers have to say.
Me too. Curious if their experience is the same as mine.
Magic_Salad0892
08-11-11, 02:43
Goddamnit. I had hopes that this would work with guns that had ambi magazine releases.
Guess not. At least my current method works.
justin_247
08-11-11, 05:09
Making this an ambi-mag release would be easy! All you have to do is forge the device with a hinge point on the left side. From that point, you design a lever that's pinned to it with a coiled spring installed by the manufacturer. The lever has a fulcrum that rests against the mag well, so when you press the bottom of the lever, it exerts an outward force against the hinge point and lifts the device, dropping the magazine.
Pretty simple, really. You just gotta make sure you make it out of the right materials so that repeated stress doesn't cause the device to fail.
Magic_Salad0892
08-11-11, 05:19
Making this an ambi-mag release would be easy! All you have to do is forge the device with a hinge point on the left side. From that point, you design a lever that's pinned to it with a coiled spring installed by the manufacturer. The lever has a fulcrum that rests against the mag well, so when you press the bottom of the lever, it exerts an outward force against the hinge point and lifts the device, dropping the magazine.
Pretty simple, really. You just gotta make sure you make it out of the right materials so that repeated stress doesn't cause the device to fail.
I was talking about a device that could be retrofit to a KAC E3 lower.
justin_247
08-11-11, 05:34
I was talking about a device that could be retrofit to a KAC E3 lower.
Copy. This does indeed pose a problem.
justin_247
08-11-11, 05:40
I was talking about a device that could be retrofit to a KAC E3 lower.
Along this same line of thought, why did REV ENG decide to make the device loop all the way around above the hammer pin instead of simply making it a straight shot from the middle of the release on up to the bolt catch? It seems like this would make it compatible with more lowers.
CaptainDooley
08-11-11, 06:46
Their original prototype did that. I am unsure why it changed.
Along this same line of thought, why did REV ENG decide to make the device loop all the way around above the hammer pin instead of simply making it a straight shot from the middle of the release on up to the bolt catch? It seems like this would make it compatible with more lowers.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-11-11, 07:26
Concerning other testers... JonC said it worked well live fire, I will try to get him to chime in.
There were several design considerations that changed the "arm" routing.
- Most folks operate the bolt catch from the "front", therefore routing to the rear is more "out of the way".
- With rearward routing, there is no "shelf" for potential debris to collect as with the previous design.
- There are less obstuctions for the "arm" to be designed around with rearward routing.
Edited to add... also... it was a give and take, rear routing will likely allow use on some "billet" lowers... where forward routing would disallow this.
I had my reasons :D
I did look hard and long as to how I might make this work on the KAC ambi lower... my conclusion was... while it could be done, it would have been a weaker design.
Kind Regards,
Their original prototype did that. I am unsure why it changed.
Im interested in possibly getting 2 of these, one for each rifle. It really is a great idea.
do you really need to remove the bolt catch to install it though?
do you really need to remove the bolt catch to install it though?
Most definitely.
(I tried half heartedly just to see)
Prying at it would result in some form of breakage, likely the paddle of the bolt release snapping off.
If by some bizzarre chance it did get pried behind there, it still wouldn't install because at that point the mag catch portion would be jammed against the outside of the receiver radically hard and certainly couldn't be moved over the bump on either side of the slot it needs to drop into.
If after all that it somehow managed to be forced anyway, it would probably not function correctly anymore due to whatever getting bent and thus out of spec/alignment. There are some very close clearances in a couple spots, and if disrupted would obviously create issues of some form or another.
Most definitely.
(I tried half heartedly just to see)
Prying at it would result in some form of breakage, likely the paddle of the bolt release snapping off.
If by some bizzarre chance it did get pried behind there, it still wouldn't install because at that point the mag catch portion would be jammed against the outside of the receiver radically hard and certainly couldn't be moved over the bump on either side of the slot it needs to drop into.
If after all that it somehow managed to be forced anyway, it would probably not function correctly anymore due to whatever getting bent and thus out of spec/alignment. There are some very close clearances in a couple spots, and if disrupted would obviously create issues of some form or another.
Ahh, I see. Just curious.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-11-11, 14:12
Every American should be able to do depot level maintenance on their ARs anyway :D
CaptainDooley
08-11-11, 14:17
I figured you had good reasons - but didn't know them.
There were several design considerations that changed the "arm" routing.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-12-11, 17:43
More parts fixing to go out... :D
Reagans Rascals
08-12-11, 18:15
deleted
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-12-11, 19:33
have you thought of offering both styles to cover a broader base of the market? As in, standard and billet lowers with the current design, and ambi-type lowers such as the KAC E3 with the original "front arm" design? Just from a business standpoint it seems you have the ability to offer both but are only offering one. I say double your market and offer both...
Also I have an idea that may be of some help, this isn't a critique or any of the "I can do it better" b/s, just a simple hey I thought this could be of some benefit to you...
Engineer the mag catch with 3 threaded holes, and then design two arms, one for the front and one for the rear of the bolt catch, also with 3 holes each in their attachment point to the mag catch, with this you can swap the arms to front or rear of the bolt release, and also move it towards or away in both directions. I've attached a crude design, but I think it kinda helps illustrate what I am getting at. I think with loctite it would be fairly strong and reliable. You could then package both arms, mag catch, screws and a small tube of loctite together and sell as 1 unit to all buyers and they could then set it up as the situation dictates.... hope it helps...
Wow... good work man... :D
But... without getting too... "into it"... there are more problems with it interacing with the KAC than just the routing of the arm... for instance, the amount of travel in KAC's ambi mag catch would have to be increased...
I really wanted it to work on the KAC... and I could make it work on the KAC... but it would be a weak design when compared to current production model... maybe a future project.
Parts went out today to:
-Quiet-Matt
-PatrolRifleGroup
-RobJensen
Also, a certain tactical guy will be trying two FCDs out during a class next week so I should have some seriously good feedback for you guys :D
Kind Regards,
NeoNeanderthal
08-13-11, 00:07
Just installed mine today, and will be running it on sunday. Seems great so far. Install was more intensive then I expected though, which will scare away new shooters from the design. However, i don't see any other way to make it happen, it is what it is.
CaptainDooley
08-13-11, 00:21
Looking good so far - can't wait for some more live fire reports and the broader release of this onto the market...
Reagans Rascals
08-13-11, 02:36
Wow... good work man... :D
But... without getting too... "into it"... there are more problems with it interacing with the KAC than just the routing of the arm... for instance, the amount of travel in KAC's ambi mag catch would have to be increased...
I really wanted it to work on the KAC... and I could make it work on the KAC... but it would be a weak design when compared to current production model... maybe a future project.
Parts went out today to:
-Quiet-Matt
-PatrolRifleGroup
-RobJensen
Also, a certain tactical guy will be trying two FCDs out during a class next week so I should have some seriously good feedback for you guys :D
Kind Regards,
Roger that... slick execution regardless!!:big_boss:
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-14-11, 13:44
Just installed mine today, and will be running it on sunday. Seems great so far. Install was more intensive then I expected though, which will scare away new shooters from the design. However, i don't see any other way to make it happen, it is what it is.
Eagerly awaiting your review :D
Out of curiosity, does this device work with Redimag gen 1 and or 2s?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-14-11, 14:44
Out of curiosity, does this device work with Redimag gen 1 and or 2s?
I wouldn't think so... but I'm not sure...
Any of you testers played with the redimag?
PatrolRifleGroup
08-14-11, 21:29
I have access to a few redi-mags, we'll do some test fittings. Thanks again for the test unit, looking forward to putting it through it's paces.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-14-11, 22:17
I have access to a few redi-mags, we'll do some test fittings. Thanks again for the test unit, looking forward to putting it through it's paces.
You're welcome for the piece, I'm looking forward to hearing back.
Kind Regards,
James
I wouldn't think so... but I'm not sure...
Any of you testers played with the redimag?
I can attempt to mount one in a couple days
jonconsiglio
08-14-11, 22:40
Ok, I've been running the unit now for the past week. The install is easy and I was surprised that it worked as well as it did without needing any type of adjustments.
What I like about it is that it doesn't change anything, it just adds an additional feature you can choose to use or not. Unlike the bolt assist devices out there, it seems very unlikely that anything could be broken or cause a malfunction in any way. The way it sits on the receiver would probably allow a serious impact without affecting function, and that's important to me after some experiences I've had. When the mag release is not depressed, no part of the unit contacts the bolt catch so there's no unwanted weight or pressure that could possibly stop the bolt from locking to the rear on empty magazines.
It takes little effort to use the FCD, and I've found that as easy as it is to press the mag release and hold it while pulling the bolt to the rear, it's even easier and smoother to pull the charging handle to the rear then press the mag release, which will lock the bolt to the rear just the same.
If for some reason you feel like dropping the mag while working the charging handle, you can do so without activating the FCD by not completely depressing the mag release.
When using a device like this one of the first things I want to know is if I can work the rifle the same as if it wasn't installed. And with the FCD, you can.
If there was anything I'd change, and there always is, I'd dehorn the unit a little more, but that's just nitpicking, as it doesn't interfere with function. It's also something we can easily do ourselves with a file and some cold blue.
Very solid product in the short time I've used it and I'll be sure to add to this thread as I go.
Thanks for the unit and I look forward to what new products you guys may have to offer.
Jon
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-14-11, 22:56
Ok, I've been running the unit now for the past week. The install is easy and I was surprised that it worked as well as it did without needing any type of adjustments.
What I like about it is that it doesn't change anything, it just adds an additional feature you can choose to use or not. Unlike the bolt assist devices out there, it seems very unlikely that anything could be broken or cause a malfunction in any way. The way it sits on the receiver would probably allow a serious impact without affecting function, and that's important to me after some experiences I've had. When the mag release is not depressed, no part of the unit contacts the bolt catch so there's no unwanted weight or pressure that could possibly stop the bolt from locking to the rear on empty magazines.
It takes little effort to use the FCD, and I've found that as easy as it is to press the mag release and hold it while pulling the bolt to the rear, it's even easier and smoother to pull the charging handle to the rear then press the mag release, which will lock the bolt to the rear just the same.
If for some reason you feel like dropping the mag while working the charging handle, you can do so without activating the FCD by not completely depressing the mag release.
When using a device like this one of the first things I want to know is if I can work the rifle the same as if it wasn't installed. And with the FCD, you can.
If there was anything I'd change, and there always is, I'd dehorn the unit a little more, but that's just nitpicking, as it doesn't interfere with function. It's also something we can easily do ourselves with a file and some cold blue.
Very solid product in the short time I've used it and I'll be sure to add to this thread as I go.
Thanks for the unit and I look forward to what new products you guys may have to offer.
Jon
Good deal Jon, thank you for your analysis and let me know when you throw it on your other rifle... :D
Quiet-Matt
08-15-11, 20:26
Initial Review...
Well, here it is. I received my pre-production sample of the “Patent Pending Firearm Control Device” from James.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xvQWeOTCh60/Tkmeer8d6sI/AAAAAAAAIvk/WeBWg3P31u0/s720/DSC02357.JPG
My first thought when un-wrapping the device was “wow, James and Wayland really pulled this off”. This appears to be a really well thought out and executed piece. The profile, angles, and cuts all seem to be purposefully and accurately designed into this little device.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xq7Go7LQTuM/TkmebdXTaYI/AAAAAAAAIvc/OKbXjXhl_SY/s720/DSC02355.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i5FJG-c-V1M/TkmedNKGriI/AAAAAAAAIvg/N2M0HPhIwbk/s720/DSC02356.JPG
The first thing to do is to prep the lower for installation. In my case I will be installing it on an Aero Precision lower from my stable. For those reading this who may not know how to remove the magazine and bolt catches from their AR, I’ll try my best to explain the steps throughout the installation process.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0rJ1pmwYsm4/Tkmehyt64WI/AAAAAAAAIuE/U-hMjSfmf9s/s720/DSC02359.JPG
Using back end of a ball point pen or similarly sized tool, depress the magazine release button completely into the lower.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OxyX9Swe4mI/TkmeizyaNJI/AAAAAAAAIwA/S6tCXQoHmOg/s720/DSC02360.JPG
While keeping it depressed, you can then un-screw the magazine catch from the button. Once removed, the button and spring can be removed. There are three parts to the magazine catch. The spring and button will be re-used for installation of the Firearm Control Device (FCD).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AM1mjgT8xkE/Tkmelr4HEFI/AAAAAAAAIvo/ZO3SgzCG4Rk/s720/DSC02362.JPG
The device installs behind the bolt catch, so it will have to be removed prior to installation. This is the part that will most likely be the source of un-certainty for some installers. Done correctly, this is quick and painless procedure.
Using a 1/16” (1.5mm) pin punch and a light hammer, lightly tap and drift the pin from the right to the left. It is important that it be drifted in this direction for installation of the device.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vYfY1Wf9UTI/TkmenHWiJ_I/AAAAAAAAIvs/ahz0FX5GIPE/s720/DSC02363.JPG
To make re-installation of the bolt catch easier, do not completely remove the pin. Drift it only far enough to allow the catch to come out. Once removed, the spring and detent can be removed and set aside.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--nDvMPZOL2c/TkmeoFWETSI/AAAAAAAAIvw/Tz7-zdLvp98/s720/DSC02364.JPG
When dry-fitting the FCD I discovered that there was a ridge that was overlooked in the manufacturing process. This was preventing it from seating in the pocket, and causing it to bind when forced.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yZKOphN6ho4/TkmeqXJUCFI/AAAAAAAAIv0/rhB34dTwA6w/s720/DSC02366.JPG
Thirty seconds with the dremmel tool and needle files, and the offending material was taken care of.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lDz-FZxEfXs/TkmerYSvGQI/AAAAAAAAIuk/ZOSdvloWgzw/s720/DSC02367.JPG
Additional dry-fitting showed that the piece was now ready for installation.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Lej1njktJtk/TkmesfYhF0I/AAAAAAAAIuo/NB0yOhsPPAI/s720/DSC02368.JPG
Installation is the reverse of removal of the original magazine catch.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HhlMVlor7K4/Tkmetb5XMTI/AAAAAAAAIus/GPZUBBgtwFA/s720/DSC02369.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nhVjqA5fPeE/Tkmeufg_c7I/AAAAAAAAIuw/EiG4_6zGHfQ/s720/DSC02370.JPG
Take a moment before you go any further and make sure that the button is how you like it. Making changes to the button later will require removal of the bolt catch.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JA6fs0gjcgI/TkmevtDj6BI/AAAAAAAAIu0/v1E-MbKDLRQ/s720/DSC02371.JPG
Now that the FCD is installed, it’s time to replace the bolt catch. You can see why it was important to drift the pin from right to left.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fYh43Iwq7SA/Tkmew6AHbaI/AAAAAAAAIu4/R6zxrRSBCwA/s720/DSC02372.JPG
Replace your spring and detent. This is a good opportunity to add a bit of lube to these often neglected parts.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d8cq_4mh6g0/TkmeybWBuwI/AAAAAAAAIu8/yVCwMZSVo1M/s720/DSC02373.JPG
Replace the bolt catch, it will require some fiddling with the magazine catch while you work it in there. Hold the bolt catch in position and lightly drift the pin back into position. If you feel resistance, wiggle the bolt catch until it frees up, then drift it home. I chose to stop about half way and function test the FCD before seating the pin.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dq9jHCd3Cy0/TkmezbvDsfI/AAAAAAAAIvA/otB6-r0BdFo/s720/DSC02374.JPG
Everything checked out so I finished it up, and re-assembled the carbine. The FCD causes no adverse movement in the bolt catch and all magazines that I tested locked up as normal. The device works as advertised during the function checks, I’ll do some dry-fire drills and malfunction clearing with dummy rounds this week, and I’ll put it through the paces this weekend at the range.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uL-E3EUi5pg/Tkme16q109I/AAAAAAAAIvI/v49LXZGPjJU/s720/DSC02376.JPG
So far….. I’m Impressed!
-Matt
_________________________________
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-15-11, 21:15
Thank you for the pics and initial review Matt,
...now shoot it! :D
Quiet-Matt
08-15-11, 21:23
Just waiting on the wife to issue my weekend pass. ;)
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-18-11, 21:57
Just got off the phone with another tester... shoot it... clear malfs with it... and keep the reviews coming :dance3:
ETA... all parts will now ship with that edge removed... thank you for the input M4C :D
Quiet-Matt
08-20-11, 15:17
Final assessment of the Firearm Control Device (FCD)
What are we expecting from the FCD? To quote Wayland and James from A Rev. Engineering… “In this embodiment, when used to aid in malfunction clearance, the primary advantage this invention provides is the ability for the weapon operator to release the magazine and also lock the bolt to the rear, solely by depressing the magazine release and pulling the charging handle. This is useful for clearing a difficult malfunction where remedial action is necessary, such as a double feed where you would need to lock the bolt back and strip the magazine”.
Installation was straight forward enough. Just remove the bolt catch by drifting the roll pin to the left, remove the bolt and magazine catch, and re-assemble using the FCD. Anyone with the slightest bit of mechanical aptitude can handle this task, and if not a gunsmith will gladly take care of you.
I installed the FCD and tested several types of magazines to ensure a positive lock with the new magazine catch, and everything checked out. I loaded a hand full of dummy rounds into an old magazine and set up a double feed malfunction. I went through the motions checking the chamber to assess the type of malfunction and rotating the weapon back the other way while grasping the charging handle with my left hand. At this point I noticed that my right hand was already in position with my pointer finger on the magazine release button. Rack the charging handle to the rear while depressing the mag release button and presto, the bolt was locked to the rear. Return the charging handle to the forward and locked position on the way to grasp the magazine and strip it from the weapon. My trigger finger still hasn’t moved from the mag release button, only now released a little pressure. Grasp the charging handle again and rack it until I see the chambered round eject. On the last rack that clears the chamber depress the mag release button and the bolt is locked again. Return the charging handle, secure another magazine, insert it into the mag well, pull to make sure it’s secure and press the bolt release with my thumb. Damn! This thing works like a charm.
There wasn’t any more noticeable resistance to the operation of the magazine release, and the device is made to fit precisely enough that there is no slop between the FCD and bolt catch. It feels like one solid piece. I ran the drill a few more times, threw in some stovepipes and whatever other malfunctions I could think of. They all cleared quickly and easily using the FCD to manipulate the bolt catch.
I called my neighbor Michael, a Marine, and told him to meet me outside. I presented him with three AR’s. One was stock, one was outfitted with a battery assist gadget from another company, and one had the FCD installed. After demonstrating the new device, I set-up a double feed in each of them and had him clear them. One at a time he went through the motions and handled them all in short order. He was impressed with the FCD for its ease of operation and apparent durability. He and I both felt that the FCD offered a degree of durability that the bolt on device didn’t. He really wants one on his AR now. Mark one more down as sold James!
So far so good, but now it’s time to test the FCD on the range. I called a buddy of mine and drove to his farm to put some rounds down range. Chris was in the army back in the day so I handed him a rifle that was stock and asked him to show me how to lock the bolt to the rear. Then I handed him the one with the bolt on device and had him do it again. Then I gave him the weapon with the FCD installed, and had him do it one more time. As I watched him go through the motions I noticed that when he operated the one with the bolt on device, the muzzle dipped. We studied this action for a while and found that what was happening was the movement from the trigger to the lever on the device, and the necessary upward sweep involved in operating it was causing a slight loss of overall grip in the control hand. Neither of us had and change in grip strength when using the FCD and the weapon stayed rock solid. We decided that the operation of the magazine release button was right in line with the grip that we were exerting on the pistol grip of the weapon, and thusly the entire hand was gripping instead of the one finger going off on its own causing a change in grip strength and coordination.
We loaded magazines to check for any adverse affects of using the FCD, such as the bolt not locking back after the last round or feeding issues. We tested four brands of magazines in both twenty and thirty round configurations. The FCD caused no problems off hand nor with the magazine on the ground shooting prone. There’s really no way for the FCD to cause a problem because the bolt catch operates independent from the device under general operation. It’s only affected when the mag catch is operated, so no problems were expected.
We then tried to cause a problem with foreign objects and debris getting lodged in the device. I depressed the magazine release and inserted a stick in behind the FCD. Small fiberous objects like grassed and twigs were easily squeezed into the gap between the device and the receiver, allowing the bolt to operate normally. We inserted a small stone, and as you would expect, it jammed the device and the bolt catch open. We realized that these problems that we had set-up could only happen while the operator of the weapon had the magazine release button depressed. An object getting lodged in behind the FCD like that would be just as likely as an object getting hung or stuck behind the bolt catch on a stock rifle. With the FCD in the released position it is unlikely that it will have any problems caused by debris. The low profile is un-obtrusive and I had no problems with it hanging on gear at all.
So, in conclusion, I have to give the FCD two thumbs up. It’s an outstanding solution to the multi step process of malfunction clearing of the AR-15 / M16 family of weapons. It’s a simple and very effective means of manipulating the bolt catch of the weapon without having a bolt-on flimsy gadget hanging off the side of your gun. It gives the impression that it belongs on there. It works folks, and very well at that. The only question I have is when I can get another one for my SBR?
If anyone has any questions please don't hesitate to ask.
-Matt
_______________________
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-21-11, 08:58
Quiet-Matt,
Thank you for your review :D
Matt-
Outstanding and educational review.
Would the FCD work on a S&W 15-22?
Initial Review...
Well, here it is. I received my pre-production sample of the “Patent Pending Firearm Control Device” from James.
.......................
So far….. I’m Impressed!
-Matt
_________________________________
Very nice review and photos!
Quiet-Matt
08-21-11, 13:09
Matt-
Would the FCD work on a S&W 15-22?
I doubt that it would work. I have limited exposure to the 15-22. Having examined one belonging to a friend of mine I do recall that the bolt catch is located further forward than on a real AR. There is only 4mm of the FCD making contact with the bolt release, and I bet that the one on the 15-22 will be just out of reach.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-21-11, 21:35
Final assessment of the Firearm Control Device (FCD)
What are we expecting from the FCD? To quote Wayland and James from A Rev. Engineering… “In this embodiment, when used to aid in malfunction clearance, the primary advantage this invention provides is the ability for the weapon operator to release the magazine and also lock the bolt to the rear, solely by depressing the magazine release and pulling the charging handle. This is useful for clearing a difficult malfunction where remedial action is necessary, such as a double feed where you would need to lock the bolt back and strip the magazine”.
Installation was straight forward enough. Just remove the bolt catch by drifting the roll pin to the left, remove the bolt and magazine catch, and re-assemble using the FCD. Anyone with the slightest bit of mechanical aptitude can handle this task, and if not a gunsmith will gladly take care of you.
I installed the FCD and tested several types of magazines to ensure a positive lock with the new magazine catch, and everything checked out. I loaded a hand full of dummy rounds into an old magazine and set up a double feed malfunction. I went through the motions checking the chamber to assess the type of malfunction and rotating the weapon back the other way while grasping the charging handle with my left hand. At this point I noticed that my right hand was already in position with my pointer finger on the magazine release button. Rack the charging handle to the rear while depressing the mag release button and presto, the bolt was locked to the rear. Return the charging handle to the forward and locked position on the way to grasp the magazine and strip it from the weapon. My trigger finger still hasn’t moved from the mag release button, only now released a little pressure. Grasp the charging handle again and rack it until I see the chambered round eject. On the last rack that clears the chamber depress the mag release button and the bolt is locked again. Return the charging handle, secure another magazine, insert it into the mag well, pull to make sure it’s secure and press the bolt release with my thumb. Damn! This thing works like a charm.
There wasn’t any more noticeable resistance to the operation of the magazine release, and the device is made to fit precisely enough that there is no slop between the FCD and bolt catch. It feels like one solid piece. I ran the drill a few more times, threw in some stovepipes and whatever other malfunctions I could think of. They all cleared quickly and easily using the FCD to manipulate the bolt catch.
I called my neighbor Michael, a Marine, and told him to meet me outside. I presented him with three AR’s. One was stock, one was outfitted with a battery assist gadget from another company, and one had the FCD installed. After demonstrating the new device, I set-up a double feed in each of them and had him clear them. One at a time he went through the motions and handled them all in short order. He was impressed with the FCD for its ease of operation and apparent durability. He and I both felt that the FCD offered a degree of durability that the bolt on device didn’t. He really wants one on his AR now. Mark one more down as sold James!
So far so good, but now it’s time to test the FCD on the range. I called a buddy of mine and drove to his farm to put some rounds down range. Chris was in the army back in the day so I handed him a rifle that was stock and asked him to show me how to lock the bolt to the rear. Then I handed him the one with the bolt on device and had him do it again. Then I gave him the weapon with the FCD installed, and had him do it one more time. As I watched him go through the motions I noticed that when he operated the one with the bolt on device, the muzzle dipped. We studied this action for a while and found that what was happening was the movement from the trigger to the lever on the device, and the necessary upward sweep involved in operating it was causing a slight loss of overall grip in the control hand. Neither of us had and change in grip strength when using the FCD and the weapon stayed rock solid. We decided that the operation of the magazine release button was right in line with the grip that we were exerting on the pistol grip of the weapon, and thusly the entire hand was gripping instead of the one finger going off on its own causing a change in grip strength and coordination.
We loaded magazines to check for any adverse affects of using the FCD, such as the bolt not locking back after the last round or feeding issues. We tested four brands of magazines in both twenty and thirty round configurations. The FCD caused no problems off hand nor with the magazine on the ground shooting prone. There’s really no way for the FCD to cause a problem because the bolt catch operates independent from the device under general operation. It’s only affected when the mag catch is operated, so no problems were expected.
We then tried to cause a problem with foreign objects and debris getting lodged in the device. I depressed the magazine release and inserted a stick in behind the FCD. Small fiberous objects like grassed and twigs were easily squeezed into the gap between the device and the receiver, allowing the bolt to operate normally. We inserted a small stone, and as you would expect, it jammed the device and the bolt catch open. We realized that these problems that we had set-up could only happen while the operator of the weapon had the magazine release button depressed. An object getting lodged in behind the FCD like that would be just as likely as an object getting hung or stuck behind the bolt catch on a stock rifle. With the FCD in the released position it is unlikely that it will have any problems caused by debris. The low profile is un-obtrusive and I had no problems with it hanging on gear at all.
So, in conclusion, I have to give the FCD two thumbs up. It’s an outstanding solution to the multi step process of malfunction clearing of the AR-15 / M16 family of weapons. It’s a simple and very effective means of manipulating the bolt catch of the weapon without having a bolt-on flimsy gadget hanging off the side of your gun. It gives the impression that it belongs on there. It works folks, and very well at that. The only question I have is when I can get another one for my SBR?
If anyone has any questions please don't hesitate to ask.
-Matt
For a review like that I'm pretty sure I can get you one for that SBR of yours :D
Quiet-Matt
08-21-11, 21:43
That's awesome brother! You guys are a class act. So far, everyone that I have let try it out is sold on it. You guys have a well thought out and well executed product. Great job!
I am very interested in this product. When do you expect to begin sales and do you have a website?
SFC
do you have a website?
The webpage is still rather unfleshed but here it is:
http://www.areveng.com/
This device looks very interesting, much better in concept than the Magpul product. However, you are really putting it into production with the name Firearm Control Device? It sounds like something the Brady Campaign would use to destroy guns.
CaptainDooley
08-22-11, 06:56
There is ordering info on the site - does anyone know if that is live?
The webpage is still rather unfleshed but here it is:
http://www.areveng.com/
Robb Jensen
08-22-11, 07:21
I got mine installed and to the range. It is well designed and fit my BCM lower w/o modification. It works 100% w/o causing any weird things to happen to the gun. I'd like to pick up a couple more to see if they'll fit my 3gun AR which has a Lancer billet lower, my S&W M&P15-22, KAC lower and I want one for my other 3gun rifle (12.5" suppressed SBR) which has a LMT lower. I really like the ability to easily lock the bolt open without removing a firing grip on the gun to clear double feeds. Dropping the bolt I've always found it best to use my weakhand thumb and the Firearm Contol Device allows this.
Great review, thanks. Since you made a point of drifting the pin from right to left, I have a question. Can you drift the roll pin out again to remove the bolt catch if needed?
Initial Review...
It is important that it be drifted in this direction for installation of the device.
To make re-installation of the bolt catch easier, do not completely remove the pin. Drift it only far enough to allow the catch to come out. Once removed, the spring and detent can be removed and set aside.
Now that the FCD is installed, it’s time to replace the bolt catch. You can see why it was important to drift the pin from right to left.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fYh43Iwq7SA/Tkmew6AHbaI/AAAAAAAAIu4/R6zxrRSBCwA/s720/DSC02372.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dq9jHCd3Cy0/TkmezbvDsfI/AAAAAAAAIvA/otB6-r0BdFo/s720/DSC02374.JPG
So far….. I’m Impressed!
-Matt
_________________________________
Having to install/remove mine a few times due to that reciever I mentioned earlier, I can say with great confidence that, yes, you can drift the pin out if neccisary.
You just need something to put between the FCD and the mag well to hold the mag release in the released position.
There will be enough clearance to get in there with a proper punch to do the work.
I ended up using the pin off an aluminum 1/8" pop rivet as the diameter was adiquate and the aluminum was less apt to do any damage to the receiver
Thanks. I thought that would be the case and just wanted to be sure.
Having to install/remove mine a few times due to that reciever I mentioned earlier, I can say with great confidence that, yes, you can drift the pin out if neccisary.
Any word about compatability with a Redi Mag yet? A couple of you beta testers said you were going to check. Thanks.:smile:
I got mine installed and to the range. It is well designed and fit my BCM lower w/o modification. It works 100% w/o causing any weird things to happen to the gun. I'd like to pick up a couple more to see if they'll fit my 3gun AR which has a Lancer billet lower, my S&W M&P15-22, KAC lower and I want one for my other 3gun rifle (12.5" suppressed SBR) which has a LMT lower. I really like the ability to easily lock the bolt open without removing a firing grip on the gun to clear double feeds. Dropping the bolt I've always found it best to use my weakhand thumb and the Firearm Contol Device allows this.
Definately want to see how that works out.
I'm kind of allergic to money orders. Do you have a PayPal account? Be happy to eat the paypal fee and buy one.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-22-11, 13:56
I got mine installed and to the range. It is well designed and fit my BCM lower w/o modification. It works 100% w/o causing any weird things to happen to the gun. I'd like to pick up a couple more to see if they'll fit my 3gun AR which has a Lancer billet lower, my S&W M&P15-22, KAC lower and I want one for my other 3gun rifle (12.5" suppressed SBR) which has a LMT lower. I really like the ability to easily lock the bolt open without removing a firing grip on the gun to clear double feeds. Dropping the bolt I've always found it best to use my weakhand thumb and the Firearm Contol Device allows this.
Thank you for putting it through the paces :D Please run it hard and in all possible situations.
As for LMT compatibility, the device was dimensioned off my LMT, so it should fit....
Kind Regards,
James
Does the installation of this device preclude using a magazine to lock the bolt open as taught by Kyle Lamb and others for one-handed manipulations?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-23-11, 20:49
Does the installation of this device preclude using a magazine to lock the bolt open as taught by Kyle Lamb and others for one-handed manipulations?
The device does not change anything... only gives you increased function.
Quiet-Matt
08-24-11, 04:55
The device does not change anything... only gives you increased function.
Took the words right out of my mouth.:big_boss:
Quiet-Matt
08-24-11, 17:51
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6bTgnq24uyU/TlWAEbVmiRI/AAAAAAAAIyI/sQwWrubG7mY/s1024/DSC02390.JPG
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-24-11, 19:24
Matt... I'm impressed :D
Your SBR FCD ships tomorrow :dance3:
PatrolRifleGroup
08-28-11, 07:28
I received my FCD roughly two weeks ago, but didn't want to post a review until I could get some range time with it:
My install was fairly straight forward. Took me about 30 minutes with the proper tools, as I had to remove and install it a second time. I basically ran into the same issue as Matt, and had a small ridge left over from the machine work. It was fixed with a small file and 30 seconds of work.
After everything was put back together, I grabbed some dummy rounds and loaded them into a few magazines to check function. I noticed right away that the FCD has a bit more play in how it engages the magazine. This was obviously a concern, since the rifle's ability to retain a magazine trumps any other added functions. I literally spent the next hour smashing and pulling on a magazine, trying to induce a failure. I couldn't get the magazine to drop, and everything functioned just fine.
A stock magazine catch lies flat against the receiver, on both sides of the threaded bolt that runs through to the magazine release button. The FCD is different, in that it is only supported on the side that engages the magazine. The opposite side, where the arm sweeps up to engage the bolt catch, is basically unsupported against the receiver. This cause a very slight amount of play in how the magazine is actually engaged.
The play in the FCD concerned me enough, that I contacted James to talk with him about the design. He relayed to me that the initial FCD was supported on both sides of the threaded bolt. The FCD differs with a stock magazine catch in that it actually has to clear the receiver in order to work. The FCD also has additional torque placed on it from engaging the bolt catch. The net result was that the initial FCD design was binding when the magazine release button was depressed, and getting stuck on the outside of the receiver. This meant that the magazine would drop free, but you would not be able to insert a new one until the device was freed up.
James had to remove material from the rear of the device until it no longer got bound up during normal operation. The end result was an extremely small amount of play in regards to engagement with a magazine. James says he beat the crap out of his test gun, trying to get a magazine to drop or malfunction, and couldn't induce a malfunction. I spent the next week trying to do the same, and asking other Officers to try to get my gun to malfuction. At no time did my gun or magazine malfunction. Overall, I see no loss of magazine retention, and was impressed with the thought that was put into the design. (Interestingly enough, I would later find on the range that inserting a fully loaded magazine was easier with the FCD)
After a week or so of dry function testing, I was finally able to hit the range. I fired about 500 rounds while working on some precision and a bunch of up close work. For the precision work, I was more interested if the use of the magazine as a mono-pod would induce a malfunction. I fired about 175 rounds with the magazine buried in the deck. This induced no malfuntions whatsoever. Moving on to up close work, I found no discernable difference in the function of the magazine release button during fast reloads. I did set up about five double feeds, and the device really shined.
The area where I love having the FCD, is actually for more of the day-to-day adminstrative clearing of a rifle. I can't tell you how many times we will "unload-lock-and clear" on a typical range day. This usually entails dropping the magazine, then doing the two-hand shuffle dance, to get the bolt locked back. It is super nice, and in my opinion much safer, to be able to drop the magazine and lock the bolt back, without having to remove my firing hand from the gun.
My biggest complaint that I have with the FCD, is that I don't have five more! Truthfully, this is one of the best "must-haves" for any patrol rifle (and I run a pretty basic gun). It gives you the ability to quickly work a double feed, and makes the day-to-day administrative manipulations much easier. The best part is, the manual of arms for the rifle hardly changed. I can't say enough good things about the FCD. Everyone I show it to wants one.
I have a bunch of range dates coming up, and I will be loaning out my rifle for various students to test. My goal is to test a bunch of different magazines over the upcoming weeks. I'll also get some pictures up soon. Thanks again James.
I'm kind of allergic to money orders. Do you have a PayPal account? Be happy to eat the paypal fee and buy one.
I'd like to repeat this request. I'm not going through the hassle of a money order, especially considering the fees I would have to pay. Please set up a PayPal account, and I would be more than happy to pay the 3% fee. I'd very much like to put one of these on my rifle.
I'd like to repeat this request. I'm not going through the hassle of a money order, especially considering the fees I would have to pay. Please set up a PayPal account, and I would be more than happy to pay the 3% fee. I'd very much like to put one of these on my rifle.
I'll throw in with another vote for an online payment system.
Thank you.
Thanks to all for the in-depth reviews. +1 to online payment options.
wow this seems like a really solid concept, ill give one a try on my next build.
steelonsteel
09-11-11, 16:35
I'd prefer an online payment system - I refuse to suport PAYPAL as they are RABIDLY anti-gun.
Any good 2nd amendment supporting shooter should also avoid them.
anyone know of there are complications with a Vltor mur upper?
Could the slightly different contouring cause a fit issue?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
10-04-11, 22:03
anyone know of there are complications with a Vltor mur upper?
Could the slightly different contouring cause a fit issue?
I don't know about fitment on the MUR...
Update:
Still working as advertised. I'm finding it easier to pull the CH back and then engaging the magazine release button as it reduces friction. Still works the other way though.
jonconsiglio
11-12-11, 10:57
Update:
Still working as advertised. I'm finding it easier to pull the CH back and then engaging the magazine release button as it reduces friction. Still works the other way though.
Mine is still working great as well.. I've done it that way since day one. The first few times I tried it, I pressed the mag release then pulled the CH, but quickly realized that pulling the CH then pressing the mag release worked much smoother.
This looks to be a great concept and a really well executed design. I have a quick question for those folks using the FCD. It looks like the raised and extended portion of the FCD could possibly limit access to the lower half of the bolt catch lever used to lock the bolt back manually. In practice has anyone found this tonbe the case?
Not for me.
The bolt release bolt hold back nub, for want of a better phrase, rides pretty much even with or just slightly proud of the FCD on the 3 receivers I have them on.
Locking the bolt back in the conventional fashion is mechanically no different, or feels no different, than what it is w/o the FCD present.
As in you don't have to revert to a thumb tip or some akward motion to engage it.
If doing it via 'manual of arms' the FCD might give a brief pause to feel the release nub, but its still in the same place and works the same way so muscle memory would be fine, just a little speed bump in the way of outright sliding the thumb over the flat side of the receiver to get thier.
Several months and many range trips later still working just fine without any issues or hiccoughs.
No indications of abnormal wear on the FCD, bolt release, or receiver at the bolt release retaining rollpin or mag release button areas.
Every time someone sees one at the range they are immediately intrigued and almost all have a 'you know I tried once, but...' and 'why didn't someone think of that sooner?' type story.
Does anyone know if these are still being produced and shipped?
I sent a PM to Revelation Engineering with no response. (over a week ago)
I just want to be sure before I send payment in an envelope of into the wild blue yonder.
I just noticed the email dd on their website, I'll try that as well.
I have sent off a PM and an Email to Revelation Engineering, no answer from either of them.
Does anyone know the developer at all? Or have any other way to contact them? I would really like to run one of these things.
Does anyone think it is a good idea to just mail this random, non email answering guy a money order? (my gut says not to.)
Id wait to see if there's a response, if there's no one to respond there's probably no one to ship your order.
http://www.aresarmor.com/install/ecom-prodshow/Firearm_Control_Device.html
Does anyone know if these are still being produced and shipped?
I sent a PM to Revelation Engineering with no response. (over a week ago)
I just want to be sure before I send payment in an envelope of into the wild blue yonder.
I just noticed the email dd on their website, I'll try that as well.
anyone know of there are complications with a Vltor mur upper?
Could the slightly different contouring cause a fit issue?
That's my concern with the Mega monolithic upper. Looking at the profile, I don't believe it will work.
http://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/8976f67cc152e760611daaf55a3ebf18.jpg
http://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/f96c5d2bb887c0f4f94c1dc9c7489297.jpg
Yea thats been my hesitation so far, If I cant have it on all my rifles I dont want it on any of them.
The price Is just enough that Ive been hesitating on risking it.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.