View Full Version : What do you look for in a AR15?
MilitaryArms
08-12-11, 08:46
Hey guys, I'm looking to find out what the folks here look for in a AR15 to determine if it's a "good one" or a "bad one", aside from the obvious like functional issues, poor fit and finish, etc. Things like the Bushmaster rifles not having staked gas keys.
I would like to compile a list of what AR15 connoisseurs look for when evaluating a new rifle.
Thanks guys.
The "chart" is a good place to start. Do a search, you will find it (maybe it's a sticky in the tech forum?). Usually, these features can be distinguished by restricting the search to particular manufacturers (e.g., Colt, LMT, BCM, DD).
If you buy the rifle new, you shouldn't have any problems. If you start buying home builds or parted rifles, then you have to start checking every little detail.
I am not a fit and finish guy.
Reliability is number one for me. I gotta say, "the chart" helps with that. Not saying I won't get an occasional Lemon, but those companies are more than willing to work with you if you do have problems.
Staked keys are a must, as well as MP/HP testing on the bolt at least. 5.56 chambering, 4150 barrel steel. Castle nut should be staked. Personally, i am a Chrome lining fan, for the barrel.
Reputation is big, but some of it does come from the Chart. Conversely, If I find that a certain company that scores high on the chart has treated their customers unfairly, like has happened, I will go with another. That being said, BCM is tops. Their customer service is second to none, and their rifles are very reliable.
Hey guys, I'm looking to find out what the folks here look for in a AR15 to determine if it's a "good one" or a "bad one", aside from the obvious like functional issues, poor fit and finish, etc. Things like the Bushmaster rifles not having staked gas keys.
I would like to compile a list of what AR15 connoisseurs look for when evaluating a new rifle.
Thanks guys.
For me, it is easy. I call the manufacturer and ask questions about the TDP. If they do not know what I am talking about or give vague answers I have no interest.
If they do (somewhat) follow the TDP, but have some kind of ghey bug/insect/reptile on the side of the gun or if their marketing system looks like it fell out of a TAPOUT commercial, I am out as well.
So following the above, that leaves me with:
Colt
BCM
DD
Noveske
C4
I don't know if I can consider myself an AR "connoisseur" but assuming the rifle is assembled and functions properly, the first thing I look is if it's configuration fits what I plan to use the rifle for. After that, I look at the quality and specifications of the barrel. The barrel is the foundation of the rifle. I check for rifle twist. While the 1/9 is a good choice if the shooter stays with shorter bullets, I think the 1/8 & 1/7 are better choices for my use.
I will pass on M4 & government profile barrels. Not because they are bad, I just don't want the M203 cut of the M4 or the poor weight distribution of the gov.
The one barrel profile I'd like to see is what is commonly called the "sporter" profile, like what's found on hunting bolt actions. It would be just a little thicker and heavier than an AR lightweight or "pencil" profile.
If there is anything on the rifle that shouldn't be, or anything that adds unnecessary weight, I lose interest. Gimmicks are a no-go. I will check for fit & finish and examine the small details. While the cosmetic aspects of fit & finish do not make a rifle shoot or function better, proper fit & finish and attention to detail tells me whether or not the folks who made it "get it" or if they are simply hamfists trying to make a buck
Does it have quad rails? Standard M4 stock? A1 upper? Vertical foregrip? Pass. None of these items affect the quality of the weapon nor are they bad features, they're just not what I want to spend money on. (Quad rails are not a complete deal breaker. I would buy a KAC SR15 E3 because I like how it handles. Otherwise, I would choose standard handguards over a quad to save money and install a FF handguard I like.)
Low quality optics, mounts & rings? Low quality furniture? Pass.
I will look to see how the rifle shoulders and how it feels in my hands. If the fit, feel or balance is awkward, I'll pass.
The hardest thing to explain and is strictly a personal quirk, I look to see if the firearm- any firearm- talks to me. If it lays in my hands dead and inert, I will pass. There needs to be some sort of tug before I buy. Strange and probably useless in answering your question, but it's a factor
Guns-up.50
08-12-11, 09:38
So following the above, that leaves me with:
Colt
BCM
DD
Noveske
C4[/QUOTE]
Is this in any certain order?
bsmith_shoot
08-12-11, 10:15
I dont really have a list I go by. I dont buy complete rifles any more, cause I can get better for cheaper, if I do the work. I always start a new build off with a statement of its intended purpose. I physically write it down. If this rifle is for, lets say, home defence, I write it on the top of a piece of paper. I then start writing down requirements and needs that this build will have to meet, I make a general list.
For example:
1. light weight- for speed of mvmnt, and so my wife can use easier.
2. very compact- so I wont get tangled on my coat rack or house coat.
3. adjustable stock- to fit me, and my wife.
4. white light- ID my target
5. reliability- works all the time, every time. I include mags here too
6. sights- red dot? Irons? holo sights? variable power?
ETC..........
After the list is compiled, I start researching manufacturers that make products that fit those requirements.
I have usually settled on parts from either BCM, LMT, Spikes, Colt, and DD for actual rifle components.
For accessories like optics, sights, lights, and furniture, I have went mostly with aimpoint, eotech, DD, surefire, IWC, Magpul, Vltor, etc....
But, after I know the rifles purpose, and the accesories I need, I narrow everything down to the best quality parts for each application. If 3 places make parts of equal quality, I buy the cheapest.
For example: IF I am buying the lower reciever, and BCM, LMT, and Spikes are my options, whichever is cheaper, I buy.
Now I do have favorites, and I am a fanboy of certain manufacturers, so I will pay a little extra for their stuff, within reason.
But thats how I do it.
Is this in any certain order?
Depends on your use. BCM, DD, and Colt are all built to a high standard and can be had for a great price. Noveske barrels are a cut above the other three and they're more expensive but still...a great rifle.
Is this in any certain order?
Nope.
Out of them though, only Colt has the TDP.
C4
TonyTacoma
08-12-11, 10:43
For me, it is easy. I call the manufacturer and ask questions about the TDP. If they do not know what I am talking about or give vague answers I have no interest.
If they do (somewhat) follow the TDP, but have some kind of ghey bug/insect/reptile on the side of the gun or if their marketing system looks like it fell out of a TAPOUT commercial, I am out as well.
So following the above, that leaves me with:
Colt
BCM
DD
Noveske
C4
No LMT?
Im in the same boat with these guys, no frills or gimmicks just a solid reliable tough rifle. Built with excellent quality control and and stringent testing backed with good customer service.
I'll add LMT to Grant's list.
I just went through the buying process. I am a hands on person, I want to touch and look at what I am buying-if it is not available I am probably going to wait until it is or look at another option.
The list above was "the" list for me. There were no BCM uppers or rifles in my area (including Palmetto Armory), I did like the LMT but the DD mid length no sights was the right set up and felt the lightest. Also, the DD compared very favorably on the "Chart". I found the chart very helpful as someone with a lot of pistol experience but not a lot of AR experience.
Failure2Stop
08-12-11, 13:17
What basic technical specs should be insisted on? Check "The Chart (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html)".
What do I look for in a weapon I am going to throw my $$ at and expect it to perform to my standard?
Any of the following names, depending on my application:
BCM
Daniel Defense
LMT
Noveske
KAC
Colt
A mid-length gas system. True, a carbine gas system on a 16" barrel isn't the Great Satan that some seem to imply, but I am used to middies and I have no compelling reason to deviate from my preference. For 18" barrels I prefer the intermediate or rifle gas system. Colt doesn't offer a middie, but I would choose the 6920 over any other carbine gas 16".
"Flat-Top", railed upper. While I do employ both fixed and folding back-up sights, the primary is locked to the upper receiver, and doing that with an A2 or A1 carry-handle blows.
Usable barrel profile. I am not really a "fan" of pencil barrels (though I do own one), but the M4 profile is silly. I like a "mid-weight" profile, such as that found on BCM, DD, KAC, and Noveske. I doubt that they are all the same, but they are all of similar concept.
12" handguard (or so). Sure, you can replace the HG if you don't like it, but I prefer to have it done before I get it.
Decent stock. Whether it is an LMT SOPMOD or a MagPul MOE, like a handguard, I'd rather not pay for it twice.
I want a free hat and a sticker to go with it. Or something along those lines.
Seriously, pretty much everything was touched on above. But some free crap never hurts. :D
TonyTacoma
08-12-11, 13:32
I want a free hat and a sticker to go with it. Or something along those lines.
Seriously, pretty much everything was touched on above. But some free crap never hurts. :D
Hah I agree!
I want a free hat and a sticker to go with it. Or something along those lines.
Seriously, pretty much everything was touched on above. But some free crap never hurts. :D
I prefer a paint-stirrer.
...If they do (somewhat) follow the TDP, but have some kind of ghey bug/insect/reptile/penis on the side of the gun or if their marketing system looks like it fell out of a TAPOUT commercial, I am out as well...
C4
hmmm, can you be a little more specific???
SpaceWrangler
08-12-11, 13:49
No, don't.
I prefer a paint-stirrer.
I prefer the 5 gallon bucket size paint stirrers. They make great tools for spanking the back side of my kids.:D When they were young, they're 11 and 13 now, all I had to do was pull out that paint stirrer and things changed in an instant.
Back to the OP's questions now.
When I first joined here I read over the Chart and did a ton of reading on the site. Mil-spec became the descriptive word for me. That lead me to decide on the following brands
BCM
Daniel Defense
LMT
Noveske
KAC
Colt
My present AR is comprised of a LMT lower and a BCM 14/5" Mid upper.
It HAS TO say LWRC on the side!! :haha:
Just kidding! :no:
mrosamilia
08-12-11, 14:55
For me, it is easy. I call the manufacturer and ask questions about the TDP. If they do not know what I am talking about or give vague answers I have no interest.
If they do (somewhat) follow the TDP, but have some kind of ghey bug/insect/reptile on the side of the gun or if their marketing system looks like it fell out of a TAPOUT commercial, I am out as well.
So following the above, that leaves me with:
Colt
BCM
DD
Noveske
C4
No KAC??
I prefer a paint-stirrer.
Are you sure PAINT wasn't a mis-print??:haha:
for me its.. just about any lower.. and then uppers in..
BCM $
PSA $
DD $$
Colt $$$
Mil-Spec BCG, and 1/7 twist or 1/8 twist.. no 1/9 for me..
I like the BCM but I wanted an option to put a FF tube on later.. and I wanted them to sub the std F marked FSB for a low-pro.. but they would not..
PSA did it and for no charge.. they also left the A2 flash-hider loose so I could more easily install my Brake (for pinning for NJ compliance)
I run a DPMS lower from my 1st AR15 size, and sold that DPMS upper (for $365) and bought the PSA upper (for $499) with Premium BCG..
http://executiveprotectionservice.us/forums/556/PSA.jpg
That being said.. if I ever get another it will be a 16" BCM in a Midlength and I'll just leave it be..
So what exactly did LMT, and KAC leave you vague on? Curious as to why those outstanding mfg'rs are not included on your select list.
Nothing really, just listed the top ones that come to mind.
C4
No LMT?
Im in the same boat with these guys, no frills or gimmicks just a solid reliable tough rifle. Built with excellent quality control and and stringent testing backed with good customer service.
Just forgot them. Nothing personal against their company. ;)
C4
No KAC??
I like KAC, but most people can't afford one.
C4
I wonder where this thread is headed? In any case I usually do not buy complete AR's. I prefer to assemble them myself or a least a large part of the work.
I want adherence to the TDP and or proven quality parts.
1. HP/MPI testing.
2. 1/7 twist barrels.
3. Milspec BCG.
4. Milspec .155 lower pins.
5. Milspec lower receiver extension.
6. Gas ports that aren't huge like Jenna Jamesons hole.
JR TACTICAL
08-12-11, 18:39
+ 1,000,000 on this, I feel like your in my head:happy:
The only thing I would add for me is a CHF barrel for prolonged barrel life and a 1/7 twist rate for shooting heavier grain bullets than 55grn (I prefer 62grn).
Also, it was stated above customer service is a huge factor for me. I have delt with other "lesser quality" companies in the past (I dont want to mention names) and what put them even further down on the list was absolute horrible customer service.
I am a huge supporter/user of Daniel Defense, never mind the fact that they make an absolutely un paralleled product/rifle thier customer service is the best I have ever seen in ANY company period, firearm and non firearm alike.
Another thing I like to see is companies that make their own stuff in house, i.e. they do not outsource their products to other shops to be built. That way their QC is top notch and the end user is less likely to have a bad product and if so, the company is able to take care of it in house.
Other than that, F2S has it right on the money
Just my opinion though
What basic technical specs should be insisted on? Check "The Chart".
What do I look for in a weapon I am going to throw my $$ at and expect it to perform to my standard?
Any of the following names, depending on my application:
BCM
Daniel Defense
LMT
Noveske
KAC
Colt
A mid-length gas system. True, a carbine gas system on a 16" barrel isn't the Great Satan that some seem to imply, but I am used to middies and I have no compelling reason to deviate from my preference. For 18" barrels I prefer the intermediate or rifle gas system. Colt doesn't offer a middie, but I would choose the 6920 over any other carbine gas 16".
"Flat-Top", railed upper. While I do employ both fixed and folding back-up sights, the primary is locked to the upper receiver, and doing that with an A2 or A1 carry-handle blows.
Usable barrel profile. I am not really a "fan" of pencil barrels (though I do own one), but the M4 profile is silly. I like a "mid-weight" profile, such as that found on BCM, DD, KAC, and Noveske. I doubt that they are all the same, but they are all of similar concept.
12" handguard (or so). Sure, you can replace the HG if you don't like it, but I prefer to have it done before I get it.
Decent stock. Whether it is an LMT SOPMOD or a MagPul MOE, like a handguard, I'd rather not pay for it twice.
If you don't know what to look for, they basically all look alike. The problem is, the average joe doesn't hit all the forums, has never heard of "the chart" and simply picks an AR out from what is readily available at Cabelas or Big 5 Sporting Goods. If more people were informed and demanded the good stuff you'd see a lot more Colt and Daniel Defense rifles on the racks and fewer Bushmasters.
GeorgiaBoy
08-12-11, 18:47
First things first, I look at the manufacturer. I am content with Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, KAC, Noveske, ect.
After that its really what I want that current build to be.
If I were going to buy an off the shelf AR15 it would probably be a KAC SR15E3, Larue OBR or possibly the Larue PredatAR 5.56, or one of the Noveske offerings with the MUR upper and their new lower.
I'm not discounting the chart, but it hasn't been updated in a while and may or may not be accurate.
Seek first to define what you want the rifle for, before deciding on features. If you want a precision rig, a chrome lined barrel isn't the best bet. Be honest about what you are doing with the gun. Don't have dreams of invading Russians. If realistically you are going to be shooting groups, get a quality gun that can do that well. If you want a rifle for classes, buy accordingly. If the latter is a concern, a stainless barrel and a MUR or Larue Billet upper probably isn't going to matter much when at max you're at 50 yards.
I would rather buy a gun from an established company that supports their customers. All of the names I've seen thus far in this thread fit that bill perfectly.
If they do (somewhat) follow the TDP, but have some kind of ghey bug/insect/reptile on the side of the gun or if their marketing system looks like it fell out of a TAPOUT commercial, I am out as well.
Huge +1. Tacky marketing is just that...tacky.
TonyTacoma
08-12-11, 23:11
6. Gas ports that aren't huge like Jenna Jamesons hole.
:haha:
I'm not discounting the chart, but it hasn't been updated in a while and may or may not be accurate.
A new version was just put out a couple of months ago.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82739
Thanks for the link!
I'm digging the new version.
Submariner
08-14-11, 17:41
I prefer a paint-stirrer.
I would prefer money-off coupons to pay for training.
polymorpheous
08-14-11, 18:10
I would prefer money-off coupons to pay for training.
Since you asked...
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-EAG-14-5-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-LaRue-p/bcm-uh-eag1.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-EAG-Pat-Rogers-s/151.htm
MilitaryArms
08-15-11, 15:15
Thank you all, this has been quite helpful. The chart is outstanding and a great reference.
RogerinTPA
08-15-11, 16:19
[QUOTE=YWHIC;1073874]for me its.. just about any lower.. and then uppers in..
BCM $
PSA $
DD $$
Colt $$$
I wouldn't say that. 6920's can be had for a song these days, just over 1K. It's the cheapest I've seen them in years.
Thank you all, this has been quite helpful. The chart is outstanding and a great reference.
I appreciate the work you do too Sturm. thanks!
Long Tom Coffin
08-15-11, 18:26
Deleted.
hotrodder636
08-15-11, 18:52
I have seen on here that having a staked castle nut is "a must"...why is it so important or even superior to a thread lock (ie loctite)?
Since people more in the know than me have already said it I won't say what i look for.....
But I will say WHERE to look and for someone like me not in the industry that place has been here. This sight has been my firearms bible and I learn something new almost every day.
Thanx.
I have seen on here that having a staked castle nut is "a must"...why is it so important or even superior to a thread lock (ie loctite)?
Lactate degrades with heat, not that is much of an issue with a receiver extension. However, the mil-spec assembly process listed in the technical manual states the castle nut should be staked. The version I have actually says it should be staked in two places.
I think locktite is better than nothing, but staking has much more of a hold than locktite. The end plate is a cheap disposable part, and how often are you really taking it off and on?
variablebinary
08-16-11, 03:34
Colt
LMT
Knights
DD
BCM
That's all I would look for personally
I have seen on here that having a staked castle nut is "a must"...why is it so important or even superior to a thread lock (ie loctite)?
Staking is the better solution because it will hold, without need of chemicals, right up until you don't want it to hold and you apply leverage to break it loose. Locktite sticks all the time, and makes it tough to remove when you want to.
hotrodder636
08-21-11, 01:01
That make sense, thanks for the info. Another piece of info to put in my memory bank!
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