The case AGAINST free floating rails [Archive]

JoeSixPack

08-13-11, 09:57

I was talking to a friend who should be knowledgable this kind of thing and we got on the subject of free floating vs. non-free floating rails when I mentioned I was thinking about getting a free floating rail for my Colt LE6920. Here's what he had to say:

"The Marines teach teenagers how to hit an 8" circle at 500 yards with iron sights using a well worn M16 with a 20" barrel and they do it without a free floating rail. If you are doing competition shooting where you are trying to put one round on top of the next at 500 yards with your hand wrapped through a sling so tight your fingers are turning purple then you might could make an argument for a free floating rail. But on a carbine, with a shorter stiffer barrel, a free floating rail is pointless".

OK, i said. "So it may not help, but if it dosen't hurt, and you've got the money, then why not"?

What he said next kind of surprized me because I had not read this anywhere before.

He said "Free floating means just what it says, free floating, as in the front of the rail is not attached to anything. Take a rifle with an aftermarket free floating rail, kneel on one knee, hold it out in front of you horizontally then bring the front of the free floating rail down on your knee like you were trying to break a large branch, there's a good chance it will break at the barrel nut.

Now repeat this experiment with a drop-in non-free floating rail that is supported by the front sight base. Unless you manage to warp the barrel, which would be pretty hard on a carbine, chances are your knee will give out before you damage anything.

Now the only reason I was looking for a rail to begin with was I wanted a QD Swivel socket and specially was looking for a rail with the socket made into the rail for a more slim-line sling attachment. I don't plan on attaching any optics to the rail.

His recommendation was the Troy Drop-in Battle Rail. It's a non-free float rail with a built in QD swivel socket (must have for me).

I had just about decided on a DD Omega 7 (not the Omega X) but after looking at the DD and the small little allen screws that hold the rail snug to the barrel nut, and thinking about the stress on those little screws if you were to do what my friend said, I'm now wondering if the Troy might be a better choice.

kwelz

08-13-11, 10:02

Your friend has no idea what he is talking about. I could go into a lot of detail about why but I am especially cranky today so I suggest you just have him watch a video on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DanielDefense#p/a/u/1/89HEefl1KI4

That video is a torture test of a DDM4. It has a free float tube, it was run over multiple times, dropped from a car, blown up, and then dropped from a helicopter. Not only does the barrel not break off but it still works.

jonconsiglio

08-13-11, 10:03

that info is just not correct. I've dropped a couple free floated rifles hard.

Check out the Daniel Defense torture test with Larry Vickers. That's a free float RIS II dropped from up to 100 feet.

People will tell you anything they believe if you'll listen. What's that saying, something about the one-eyed man being king in the land of the blind?

Edit - kwelz beat me to it.

ForTehNguyen

08-13-11, 10:06

show him a DD 12.0 Lite Rail's mounting and tell me how that is going to break.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa284/recce556/mc002.jpg

Iraqgunz

08-13-11, 10:09

Friends Don't Let Amateurs Give Advice. He has no clue what he is talking about and I can guarantee that no Spec Ops units would use them of they were crap.

kwelz

08-13-11, 10:10

Check out the Daniel Defense torture test with Larry Vickers. That's a free float RIS II dropped from up to 100 feet.

I am pretty sure it is an Omega X. Which arguably has their "Weakest" lockup system. Weakest of course being a VERY relative term in this case.

jklaughrey

08-13-11, 10:11

Watch the video on the DDm4 that LAV narrates. That rail is free float.

https://danieldefense.com/TortureTest

Specs
Notice Omega rail is Free float.

Lower Receiver: Mil-Spec with Enhanced Flared Magazine Well and Rear Receiver QD Swivel Attachment Point
Upper Receiver: Mil-Spec with Indexing Marks and M4 Feed Ramps
Barrel: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 twist, 16″ M4 Profile, Carbine Gas System, Chrome Lined, MP tested, and Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate coated
Chamber: 5.56 NATO
Flash Hider: A2 Birdcage Flash Hider
Bolt Carrier Group: Mil-Spec MP Tested, Properly Staked Gas Key
Buffer: H Buffer
Sights: Daniel Defense A1.5 Fixed Rear Sight; Pinned “F” Marked Front Sight Base
Handguard: Daniel Defense Omega X Rail™ 12.0 FSP
Buttstock: MAGPUL MOE Buttstock & Mil-Spec Receiver Extension
Magazine: MAGPUL 30 round PMag in Black
Vertical Grip: Daniel Defense A2 Styling Vertical Grip
Case: Comes with Custom Daniel Defense Full-Latch Impact Plastic Case
Made in the USA!

jonconsiglio

08-13-11, 10:15

I am pretty sure it is an Omega X. Which arguably has their "Weakest" lockup system. Weakest of course being a VERY relative term in this case.

That's right.. I was thinking of Vickers and a FSP rail, so I guess that's where RIS II came from.

JoeSixPack

08-13-11, 10:26

show him a DD 12.0 Lite Rail's mounting and tell me how that is going to break.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa284/recce556/mc002.jpg

The DD lite rail looks sturdy but it dosen't have a built in QD Swivel Socket which I really want.

Here's the one I was looking at. The DD Omega 7

https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/a/0a18a2ecb03ba9a871f5595a6a5af374.jpg

jonconsiglio

08-13-11, 10:55

The Omega is a great rail. Iraq Ninja has one on his BCM middy and I really like it. It feels good and has a thin profile.

I have the KAC URX II and Daniel Defense RIS II (along with a couple others) that I use all the time. I've put one of the URX's through some serious use and it's come out fine.

The Omega is nice because you keep your front sight post but have the DD quality. If you want free float and keep your FSB, but have a longer than 7" or 9" rail, look at any of their FSP models which are usually around 12". I believe there's an option for all of their rails with the FSB on a carbine gas system, and a couple with the cutout for the middy gas system.

Personally, I prefer the RIS II, but all of them are the highest quality.

Edit - I have built in QD sockets on my KAC rails, but prefer the Daniel Defense attachment so I can move it a little more forward than the rear socket near the upper receiver. Also, I'm not sure about any of the DD rails as mine don't have the sockets, but the URX's are not rotation limited and can twist the sling around a little. Not really an issue, but I'll take the limiter if I can get it, which the DD attachement does have.

bp7178

08-13-11, 10:59

A sling mount should be rear the bottom of the feature list when it comes to rails. There are lots of crappy rails on the market with sling mounts.

Depending on how they are made, I would almost rather have the sling mount as an add on. Should the sling insert become worn or damaged, if its a part of the rail you may be screwed. If its external the rail, all one would need to do is attatch another.

Quality of the machine work and mounting system should be much higher on the list. That being said, the DD RIS-II is w/o equal.

DD makes a sling mount which weighs maybe an ounce. Depending on your chosen sling, I also like the Magpul mounts. No moving parts. Now if only the MS3 sling would actually be released...

He said "Free floating means just what it says, free floating, as in the front of the rail is not attached to anything. Take a rifle with an aftermarket free floating rail, kneel on one knee, hold it out in front of you horizontally then bring the front of the free floating rail down on your knee like you were trying to break a large branch, there's a good chance it will break at the barrel nut.

Now repeat this experiment with a drop-in non-free floating rail that is supported by the front sight base. Unless you manage to warp the barrel, which would be pretty hard on a carbine, chances are your knee will give out before you damage anything.

I wonder what knock off bullshit brittle chinese rails he's used before. His logic seems perfect if we were all using airsoft guns.

Professional equipment isn't fragile.

mkmckinley

08-13-11, 11:09

I absolutely beat the shit out of a Mk-18 with the DD lite rail and haven't had anything break, bend, or come loose. I'm not going to do the knee test you described because I don't want to hurt my knee but I have done the "land on it fast-roping onto tarmac" and "smash it repeatedly against the inside of armored vehicle" tests and it's still good to go.
Those Marines shooting at 8" circles are resting their M-16's on sandbags. If you want to use different types of support with different techniques for gripping the weapon a free float rail is a good idea.

polymorpheous

08-13-11, 11:11

The Omega rain clamps against the existing barrel nut using 4 set screws.
You don't have to remove the delta ring assembly or the front sight base to install it.

The OmegaX rail has it's own proprietary barrel nut.
The front site base, barrel nut, and delta ring assembly have to be removed.

Another option with the QD socket is LaRue.

Failure2Stop

08-13-11, 11:24

"The Marines teach teenagers how to hit an 8" circle at 500 yards with iron sights using a well worn M16 with a 20" barrel and they do it without a free floating rail. If you are doing competition shooting where you are trying to put one round on top of the next at 500 yards with your hand wrapped through a sling so tight your fingers are turning purple then you might could make an argument for a free floating rail. But on a carbine, with a shorter stiffer barrel, a free floating rail is pointless".

Your firend is wrong on literally everything he told you.

BCmJUnKie

08-13-11, 11:36

The reticle in my Comp M3 covers an 8" target at 200. How do you see an 8" at 500?

FromMyColdDeadHand

08-13-11, 11:46

What is the Marine Corp long range standard? I kind of glossed over while I read it, but about 1.6MOA (8/5) is better than the contract accuracy of M855 ammo, isn't it?

Failure2Stop

08-13-11, 12:05

What is the Marine Corp long range standard? I kind of glossed over while I read it, but about 1.6MOA (8/5) is better than the contract accuracy of M855 ammo, isn't it?

Echo Silhouette is the target at 500 yards.
20" wide, 40" tall.
Shot from the prone position, no support other than a loop sling (which is substantial).
10 rounds. 10 minutes.

Sling tension can play hell on zero due to . . . lack of free floating HG!!!

But what the hell do I know?

RogerinTPA

08-13-11, 12:10

Your friend is a bubba in the highest order. He is the typical bubba that you run into at gun shows and ranges who is the resident self proclaimed gun expert in the local trailer park. Stop talking to him about all things related to firearms. You want real factual no BS answers, research and post here at M4C.

Alpha Sierra

08-13-11, 12:17

Those Marines shooting at 8" circles are resting their M-16's on sandbags.
Nope.

GTifosi

08-13-11, 12:18

Free floats are junk because they don't give enough support when using the barrel to lever together a USGI cot. :jester:

PatEgan

08-13-11, 12:19

Sounds great! Does he give medical, stock and real estate advice, too?:no:

Pat

jonconsiglio

08-13-11, 12:47

OP, keep in mind my response and most of those by others aren't an attack on you.. It's people like your friend that spread very wrong info and some guys that are new, may listen since he knows more than them at least.

Unfortunately, many new guys have wasted money and fired many useless rounds downrange because they were listening to someone else bad advice.

You need to not talk to him about firearms, or at least don't accept anything he says as right. This is pretty much common knowledge about hand guards in the industry, so that tells me he probably knows very little when it comes to harder to answer questions.

Be careful. When someone talks about good and bad with these rifles, I first want to know what their experience is and how they came to this conclusion, and also how many thousands of rounds a year they fire other than at an indoor or static outdoor range. It's like the guys coming here telling serious shooters that a Bushmaster or Stag is what they need to buy, come to find out they only fire a few hundred rounds a year from a bench.

Tell him to speak on what he knows and has experienced only, not what he assumes.

skullworks

08-13-11, 12:49

I can see how if you buy a cheap synthetic free float rail for $9.99 at the local Gun & Jerky (hey I like both!) or an Asian knock-off intended for the airsoft market you might be able to break it by slamming it against your knee. Personally, my knees are already crap and I would not want to further exacerbate that condition, and I like to buy quality.

Then again, between all those clips in the DD video, of running it over with cars, dropping it from helos and shooting it with 00 buck, I never did see Larry try break that forend over his knee, so maybe there's something to it...

rocketman

08-13-11, 12:58

Echo Silhouette is the target at 500 yards.
20" wide, 40" tall.
Shot from the prone position, no support other than a loop sling (which is substantial).
10 rounds. 10 minutes.

Sling tension can play hell on zero due to . . . lack of free floating HG!!!

But what the hell do I know?

I have no dog in this hunt but can't resist a point of order here.....those kids still make center of mass hits at 500 yards with issue M855 ammo without FF HGs. (Yea I know the zero changes without the tight sling ;) )

wolf_walker

08-13-11, 13:11

I have no dog in this hunt but can't resist a point of order here.....those kids still make center of mass hits at 500 yards with issue M855 ammo without FF HGs. (Yea I know the zero changes without the tight sling ;) )

Yes. And the opposite of passing bad information like the OP's incorrect friend is doing is having people think they must have a
FF handguard/rail to have an accurate carbine/rifle. This isn't the case as far as I can tell.

I've often wondered if part of the "mag-well hold" wasn't to take variation in pressure off the handguard when shooting the AR. I know people still that use it with success, but not while moving or engaging multiple targets.

The bit about breaking a quality FF rail is rubbish. There is likely some cheap crap out there that would break though.

Failure2Stop

08-13-11, 14:04

I have no dog in this hunt but can't resist a point of order here.....those kids still make center of mass hits at 500 yards with issue M855 ammo without FF HGs. (Yea I know the zero changes without the tight sling ;) )

Generally speaking, I will not see more than 7 of 10 hits within a 4 MOA circle unless the shooter is either A: an experienced shooter (or) B: was issued an unmolested rifle (or) C: issued an ACOG.

Make no mistake about it, we do it from a position that is nearly as stable as shooting from a front bag, but were limited by the front sight. I would have guys adjust their sights so that at 500 yards (~457 meters) so that a center strike would require a head hold. Not supposed to do so, but getting guys to get mechanical performance standard from an "unsupported" position does a lot more for morale than a bunch of guys that barely scraped by and begin to dread the range. Further, many rifles prove to be more capable than threshold failure before some semi-mongoloid had their faithful followers scrape gouges into the crown.

Magnification is one of the greatest enhancements to accuracy that can be bolted onto a weapon. Failure to fully and completely focus on the front sight is one of the more common issues with upper-level performance, and though it is more of a sight picture thing it still pertains to one's ability to break the shot with the greatest degree of consistency. A loop sling makes a big difference over "field" positions, as long as is it is applied and tensioned consistently. A FF HG will reduce the necessity for such consistency, making applied tension (through whatever means) negligable, and make distance dependant deflection correction less common.

So, yeah, it is done, but generally not to the degree that many imply.

99HMC4

08-13-11, 14:17

Well if free floating is good, no handguard mist be better. I'm taking my hand guards off tonight!

rocketman

08-13-11, 14:22

Well if free floating is good, no handguard mist be better. I'm taking my hand guards off tonight!

If you happen to go that route I have an old asbestos M60 barrel change mitt for sale cheap.....:D

wolf_walker

08-13-11, 14:26

The next mall-ninja fad is born. Quick to market with designer instructor branded kevlar barrel direction gloves now..

skullworks

08-13-11, 14:49

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XBIdjVYlUJ8/TZXN8sxkZvI/AAAAAAAABKI/qTn_PfM90UA/s1600/escape-from-new-york-review-495x.png

cz7

08-13-11, 15:49

The three most heard complains over them[free floating rails] are heavy and hard on the hands due cold or hot from shooting ,easily broken ...I found all wrong with good ones !

QuietShootr

08-13-11, 16:00

What is with the influx of ****ing retards again? If someone is taking out ads for the forum in SWAT or something, a little heads up before the issue comes out would be nice:D

JackFanToM

08-13-11, 16:08

I musta seen John Carpenter's Escape from New York a dozen times and never noticed the lack of hand guards on those rifles. Makes me feel unobservant.

skullworks

08-13-11, 16:14

I musta seen John Carpenter's Escape from New York a dozen times and never noticed the lack of hand guards on those rifles. Makes me feel unobservant.
I guess you're not into it enough. ;)

RogerinTPA

08-13-11, 16:15

I musta seen John Carpenter's Escape from New York a dozen times and never noticed the lack of hand guards on those rifles. Makes me feel unobservant.

Funny...it's the first thing I noticed right off the bat, the first time I watched back in the day.;)

kwelz

08-13-11, 16:38

Never mind. I think I misunderstood. At least I hope I did.

Abraxas

08-13-11, 17:43

Further, many rifles prove to be more capable than threshold failure before some semi-mongoloid had their faithful followers scrape gouges into the crown.

My DI took a dremel to the crown of my rifle, after qual thank god.

sir_n0thing

08-14-11, 11:57

I heard a similar story from someone I know last week about free-float rails being easy to break. Glad I found this thread to shed some light on the topic.

MistWolf

08-14-11, 13:40

...the only reason I was looking for a rail to begin with was I wanted a QD Swivel socket and specially was looking for a rail with the socket made into the rail for a more slim-line sling attachment...

Get the forearm you want, freefloat or not, as with a little imagination, a QD cup can be mounted to any of them without much trouble. I installed one in my PRI
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0201.jpg

HeavyDuty mounted one on a MOE using a cup from Mount-N-Slot
http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/ac123/HDF62/IWCQD5.jpg

Next time you see your friend, hand him an AR and tell him to show you how easy it is to break the freefloat tube over his knee. Even if he does manage it, it'd be worth it to see him limping around for the next few weeks

Magic_Salad0892

08-14-11, 23:12

A non FF gun will have slightly less POI shift with a suppressor than one with a FF rail.

Found that out myself this weekend.

Friend of mine had a Colt 6720 cut down to 10.3'', by ADCO, and left his M4 handguards on it. Has about a half inch less POI shift than my 11.1'' gun does.

He's using an NT4 as well, but there are too many variables to be sure it was the FF guards. I'm just saying that markm may very well have been right.

Other than that... FF is the way to go. IMHO.

kwelz

08-14-11, 23:22

Not sure if this is the best test. Barrel length, rigidity, and profile all play a part in this.

A non FF gun will have slightly less POI shift with a suppressor than one with a FF rail.

Found that out myself this weekend.

Friend of mine had a Colt 6720 cut down to 10.3'', by ADCO, and left his M4 handguards on it. Has about a half inch less POI shift than my 11.1'' gun does.

He's using an NT4 as well, but there are too many variables to be sure it was the FF guards. I'm just saying that markm may very well have been right.

Other than that... FF is the way to go. IMHO.

JSantoro

08-15-11, 00:03

Take a rifle with an aftermarket free floating rail, kneel on one knee, hold it out in front of you horizontally then bring the front of the free floating rail down on your knee like you were trying to break a large branch, there's a good chance it will break at the barrel nut.

I'm violating a very basic rule, I know, but I got to this point and couldn't read any more.

I'm not suggesting you ditch your friend entirely, but listening to him talk about weapon components, their capabilities, and what they may or may not do for a shooter is probably as pointless as a discussion about what male masturbation FEELS like....with one's mother.

If he's pressing bad gouge like that, he's a believer, which is another way of saying that he represents all the good intention that roads to hell are paved with.

The day-to-day Marine's quals are made at the 200 & 300yd line, not at the 500. A good shooter that mind-****s himself at either may save his ass at the 500, but the constant assertions of 7 of 10 hits at the 5 are not the trend.

Robb Jensen

08-15-11, 06:01

I will continue to freefloat my ARs. The probability of me actually shooting the guns and is far greater than the probability that I'll find myself pressing down on the handguard with one knee and pulling up on the barrel to test how much the bbl nut can handle.

I shot 5 of my ARs this weekend. Confirmed zeros on 4 and the 5th I ran hard in drills (NGA X7) got it so hot that the FF tube burned my left hand right through my Oakley FR gloves.

rob_s

08-15-11, 06:06

I was talking to a friend who should be knowledgable this kind of thing

How do you define this?

Eurodriver

08-15-11, 07:07

How do you define this?

He said so, I'm sure.

I don't use FF rails either. I used a 16" BCM with a 12" DD Lite upper as a pogo stick and it broke the barrel nut. Since then, I use my plastic handguards and FSB to keep my gun together.

JSantoro

08-15-11, 07:27

Kinda moot, innit?

Taking that sentence as it reads, "should be" makes it open-ended; there was room for doubt, hence the need to question. We can stick to technical merit as a stand-alone without getting into the fuzzy-headed thinking and gun-rag article absorptions rates of another party.

The last time I broke a barrel nut that didn't include overcranking on it, it was while jumping up to the moon to punch holes in it. With my weapon in hand; I banged it across my knee when I landed.

Using only one leg.

Uphill, both ways.

Ergo, all those craters you see. Sorry....

This is how tall tales get started.

MistWolf

08-15-11, 10:30

Wow, JS! Was this during the Blizzard of '49?

skullworks

08-15-11, 10:59

..and with his bum knee.

intermission

08-15-11, 12:20

Where ya barefoot too?

Beat Trash

08-15-11, 12:23

OP,

The ONLY case I can and do make against using a quality free floating rails system is the cost.

I have two Colt 6920's that I use (one I use, and one is a spare) as a LE Patrol Rifle, get to and from work w/o issues, home defense, and because I enjoy shooting the things.

My guns are used well inside of 100 yds. I only needed to mount a light. My optic (Aimpoint an T-1) is mounted on the receiver (where else) so the type of rail does not matter to the optic.

I went with the Magpul fore end and a mount-n-slot light mount w/Surefire G2x. For me, it works.

I have used other shooters guns equipped with quad rails and tube rail systems from DD and Troy. The last thing I would be concerned about with the guns I used and/or examined would be the durability of the rail. Short of beating the things with a hammer, and even then I don't see durability to be an issue.

The free floating rail systems bring a lot to the table. I feel the only real negative issue to them is the cost. For me, the cost did not justify the needs I had for these particular guns.

While I don't intentionally abuse my guns, they don't get babied either.

The durability of the rail systems I've handled never even crossed my mind when I was checking them out.

Your friend has an over inflated opinion of self worth. Don't listen to his advice.

tirod

08-15-11, 21:47

I want to be plain anyone using a sling attached to a barrel swivel and cranking up the tension is either stuck using a service rifle - or has NO clue about precision shooting. The POI will shift, guaranteed.

That's the point - it would make no difference whether it was a 1/4MOA match barrel or 2MOA milspec one, it will shift. That's why the precision crowd makes sure their sling is attached to a separate structure and not to the barrel.

Conversely, a free float won't make a barrel suddenly shoot better than it's inherent dispersion. It just eliminates pressure on the barrel changing the POI. That's the point - if it's a 2MOA milspec barrel, it's still a 2MOA barrel with a free float.

I don't see that the effective accuracy needed in the field will be significantly enhanced by spending an extra $250 for a free float, when shooters would be better off with a better quality ammo, a good optic, and more practice. Which is exactly what most precision shooters ALSO have to do to improve group sizes.

The problem? Too many want to buy an brag part rather that work to gain skill, so when you read the internet for how to do it, freefloats rank right up in front - at $250 a pop.

And the one opinion which should count comes from KAC, the contract holder. They say don't bother. What do the other rail makers guarantee? Nothing in writing.

Rather than argue whether so "bubba" hasn't a clue, it would be more professional to specify exactly what it takes for a freefloat to do anything - which points "Bubba" might have had in mind that were correct - rather than engaging a a freeforall of character assassination.

After all, you're talking about a customer, all you do is help educate them if they're a bit off the mark. No sense saying he's a retard idiot.

Any guess which company rep wants to be upfront about his employers' name? Cause I don't need to buy from people who think their customers are retard idiots. Chiappa should be a good case in point - they don't think anyone with intelligence would question their new RFID chips.

I smell the same arrogance in this discussion.

JoeSixPack

08-15-11, 22:34

I've decided to go with KAS RAS M4 and I'll use the factory M4 barrel side mount for my sling to keep the rifle as slim line as possible.

Mikey

08-15-11, 23:41

Free floats are junk because they don't give enough support when using the barrel to lever together a USGI cot. :jester:

They can't be any worse than the M9 is at hammering in tent pegs.

rob_s

08-16-11, 04:44

rob_s

08-16-11, 04:45

I've decided to go with KAS RAS M4 and I'll use the factory M4 barrel side mount for my sling to keep the rifle as slim line as possible.

Going to have a couple like new Daniel Defense Omega 7" and Troy 7" Battle rails for sale next week when the KAS rails come in.

So you decided that "he who should know about these things" was right and everyone else who you came here to ask advice from what wrong?

Iraqgunz

08-16-11, 05:07

This is exactly why I hate these threads and the similar "what upper should I buy threads?".

People come in, get told what is contrary to what they heard elsewhere and then after getting counltess opinions decide to buy exactly what they knew they were going to buy to begin with.

In any case, you made your choice and we can now put this puppy to sleep.

I've decided to go with KAS RAS M4 and I'll use the factory M4 barrel side mount for my sling to keep the rifle as slim line as possible.