View Full Version : Hardening the home for defense
In light of recent events in England, I want to have a plan for hardening my home against rioters, looter, etc.
So far, my windows have been given heavy-duty "storm shutters" made of solid oak. About two inches thick. I have a few hundred sandbags, and plenty of sand to fill them with to make a barrier around the house. I have a plan to use the garden hose, buckets, etc. to soak the roof, walls, sandbags set up around the house, yard, etc. to protect from the looters lighting it all on fire. All outer doors have been replaced with solid-core oak, 2" thick, four hinge affairs. Multiple dead bolts.
Anything else I can do to harden against burglary, looting, etc.? What are your plans for doing such? should I put bars on first-floor windows?
Thanks.
If it gets to London style rioting, I'll team up with neighbors to stop entry into the neighborhood. With my Arsenal AK. Move on folks, nothing to see here...
Agree the best protection is to keep them away from your house so they don't target it. Think about what could be used along with neighbors to block of your street. Barbed wire, old trailers, or that plastic netting used around construction sites?
We have always chose to live on a cul-de-sac and currently live on a long drive off a cul-de-sac. In one neighborhood we lived in teenagers would vandalize most houses along the through street as they were easy targets. None of the houses on cul de sacs were ever bothered.
Whether you are on a cul de sac now or not, I would seriously consider devising a way to make it one in an emergency. It would probably have to be manned by at least a couple of guys through the night and perhaps daylight with cell phones and or walkie talkies.
I'd wonder if the sandbags would draw more attention instead of doing good. In many situations one of the keys I would think is to not stand out. With that more passive things like bushes and other landscaping that makes it harder to get to your house without standing out would be better.
Naxet1959 is also on where I'd think keeping them out of the neighborhood would be best. Don't want them near the house if you can help it.
I've thought about this as well, but haven't come up with any good and affordable solutions.
If you really want to harden your home, what about protection against incoming rounds? Seems like this is a logical progression to rioters looting and burning.
As for patroling the neighborhood to keep the yobs out, don't you think walking aqround with AK's and AR's slung over ones shoulder would attract some unwanted attention from the authorities? Might be a litle counter productive.
I'd wonder if the sandbags would draw more attention instead of doing good. In many situations one of the keys I would think is to not stand out. With that more passive things like bushes and other landscaping that makes it harder to get to your house without standing out would be better.
Naxet1959 is also on where I'd think keeping them out of the neighborhood would be best. Don't want them near the house if you can help it.
I'm pretty far off the road, you can't see the house from the road or even twenty-five yards up the drive way (yeah, I've got it measured out). I'm kind of in a rural area (a few miles out side of a town population 15,000 which is 30 miles outside of a city population 75,000).
I think if anyone came out my way, the rioting/unrest has gotten very serious and they're going to hit any place they can. I figure if they come up the driveway, they want inside no matter what they find. Also, there aren't many houses in the area. My few neighbors will be locked and loaded too, so I honestly don't want to be the softest target in the area. If they hit any of the houses in my area and survive getting inside/taking the place over, they'll have guns and ammo, and probably be emboldened by their success (that's how I figure it).
I have long line of sight (at least fifty meters) in all directions, I'm at sort of a high point of land (the tree line all around is below the level of my house). I'd be very aggressive in defensive policy (not shoot on sight, but I'd have guns out if any visitor did, and I'll use appropriate force on anyone showing any aggression).
So, barbed wire? I guess blocking vehicle approach is a good idea, too. Maybe have an alternative route to exit around the barricade, concealed by brush?
I'm trying to get ideas flowing for all you out there too.
ETA: moonshot, the reason for sandbagging around the first floor (and the fact I own level IV rifle plates) is to protect against incoming rounds as well as the breaking of windows, damage to the outside of the home, delay entry, etc. The heavy shutters would offer some ballistic protection as well.
In terms of affordability, the local fire dept. will sell you sandbags for a marginal price. At least, they sold them to me for like 10 cents a bag.
I'd wonder if the sandbags would draw more attention instead of doing good. In many situations one of the keys I would think is to not stand out. With that more passive things like bushes and other landscaping that makes it harder to get to your house without standing out would be better.
This one ran a red flag with me as well. If your floors can support it, what about some drop clothes or plastic tarps and placing your bags in the house? That way you have ballistic protection and you keep your low profile.
Another thought is to stop vehicles from gaining access to your building area. What about some raised planters reinforced with cinderblocks, concrete and re-bar? You can place sand or gravel in the bottom of them (ballistic protection) and nice looking plants with thorns to help ward off anyone playing where they don't belong. If implemented properly, the planters will offer excellent ballistic protection and provide a nice surprise to any vehicles that try to storm the gates.
It sounds like you are better prepared than most people. History has shown that mobs and thugs like to take the path of least resistance, so like the old joke about two hikers being chased by a bear, you only need to outrun your neighbors:).
I agree that blocking the street is a necessity, and I also am a fan of keeping a low profile, so the internal sandbags would be better than external bags. If you make your house appear that there is something of great value inside, you will become a higher priority target for a mob, or looters when shtf.
I am starting to look into the 3M Safety & Security film for my windows. I know that it is not perfect, nor will it completely bulletproof glass, but it will offer another level of protection for me. It might compliment your security shudders pretty well too. I personally don't want my house to look like a liquor store in the hood by adding bars on the off-chance that flash mobs are going to be hitting my house.
Guns-up.50
08-14-11, 00:05
Fortunately for me there is only one way in and out of my neighborhood unfortunately at 26 years old most of my neighbors are 40 years older, so i might be on my own. I would block the road to stop traffic the put a pill box on the roof and go out Alamo style;)
Thomas M-4
08-14-11, 01:29
Fortunately for me there is only one way in and out of my neighborhood unfortunately at 26 years old most of my neighbors are 40 years older, so i might be on my own. I would block the road to stop traffic the put a pill box on the roof and go out Alamo style;)
I would reconsider that part I can take a $100 SKS and put holes through and through a roof. 2 sheets of 3/4" ply wood , shingles and a layer of tar paper is nothing to a 7.62X39mm. It wood take a tremendous amount of sand bags to construct a bunker on a roof not to mention if the roof would even hold up to that weight.
If you have only one way in and out I would construct a intrenched fighting position in a bend of the road and try my best to clear the fields of fire. And have a BO plan.
Just a Jarhead
08-14-11, 05:21
3M window film on windows to prevent molatov cocktails entering if someone doesn't have hurricane shutters or they're not common to your area. Completely discrete & will make your windows shatter proof. Ballistic windows are friggin expensive. I've looked into it.
Something you 'll want to consider...if you have some sort of lighting for night if we have rolling blackouts or electricty hits the crapper ever, battery powerd lanterns, candles, kersosene lamps etc make sure you have black plastic and a good quality tape to tape up windows to black out your house. You don't want to be the only one with light. It screams I'm prepared. Your house will be like a "lighthouse beacon" otherwise!
Anything else I can do to harden against burglary, looting, etc.? What are your plans for doing such? should I put bars on first-floor windows?
Steel is good for hardening. a 3/16"-1/4" plate on the back of your wood should stop larger caliber rounds. Have plates sheared to size & pre drilled to quickly attach them to your wood window & door covers.
Steel is good for hardening. a 3/16"-1/4" plate on the back of your wood should stop larger caliber rounds. Have plates sheared to size & pre drilled to quickly attach them to your wood window & door covers.
That's a good point. Between the two inches of oak and the plate, that would probably stop any handgun rounds, shotgun, and light rifle fire right?
I can't bring the bags inside, floor could never take that kind of weight. Maybe cover them in tyvek on the outside, stretched tight, and make it look like a house under construction?
I'm going to look into the 3M/IBM window film. Sounds like an economical way to add ballistic protection.
Guns-up.50
08-14-11, 12:35
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I would reconsider that part I can take a $100 SKS and put holes through and through a roof. 2 sheets of 3/4" ply wood , shingles and a layer of tar paper is nothing to a 7.62X39mm. It wood take a tremendous amount of sand bags to construct a bunker on a roof not to mention if the roof would even hold up to that weight.
If you have only one way in and out I would construct a intrenched fighting position in a bend of the road and try my best to clear the fields of fire. And have a BO plan.
It was a joke..... if i remember correctly the Alamo didnt work out to well
That's a good point. Between the two inches of oak and the plate, that would probably stop any handgun rounds, shotgun, and light rifle fire right?
You need to conduct tests. Make a bunch of "samples" and shoot them with different bullets. Check it first with 5.56 ball ammo. I have 1/2" AR500 steel targets (hardened to 50 Rockwell) and 5.56 ball will dent the shit out of them at 25-50 yards. Half inch plates of AR500 is going to get really expensive and really heavy.
Bottom line, never ASSume.
Sand bags should never be placed on the outside of the house. It will only draw attention.
Just a Jarhead
08-14-11, 16:13
Steel plate is some heavy stuff guys. Here's a steel plate calculator for weight. It can be done you just have to plan it properly.
http://www.chapelsteel.com/weight-steel-plate.html
With my bullet proof barn design, I had already thoroughly looked into it. The design I came up with called for regular glass windows around the barn. To the left of each window in the interior were steel tracks that also ran across top and bottom of the window. The plate was on rollers gliding on the tracks and rested to the left of the window. If a threat presented itself you, you lift the bottom of the double hung window open & just slide the plate over in front of the window nice & fast. A cross + shaped opening about 10" x 10" and the cut to be 4" wide to be cut out with a torch or plasma cutter. Got the cross opening idea from Rawles' book "Patriots" which Rawles got from Clint Eastwoods "Outlaw Josey Wales". When I was designing the bulletproofing, I watched the movie again to get a better idea.The plate steel was to be covered with some kind of fabric to discretely hide them during normal times and if you remember the walls were filled with sand. Everything was to be discretely hidden.
Here's some bullet proof plate steel info.
http://www.somaxsteel.com/Html/productview.asp?id=25&sortid=121
From my 1st hand experience, through a 16" barreled AR, I can say that std XM193 will penetrate 1/4" mild steel plate no problem. SS109 will penetrate 3/8" mild steel plate no problem. I haven't found a 5.56/.223 round that will penetrate 1/2" mild steel plate.
German 147grn 7.62 NATO fired from a 16" barrel in a gas gun put a large dimple in the back of 1/2" MS plate, but didn't penetrate it. The same ammo fired from a 22" barreled gas gun did penetrate it clean through.
All testing was done at approx 25yds.
Str8Jacket722
08-14-11, 17:49
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I would reconsider that part I can take a $100 SKS and put holes through and through a roof. 2 sheets of 3/4" ply wood , shingles and a layer of tar paper is nothing to a 7.62X39mm. It wood take a tremendous amount of sand bags to construct a bunker on a roof not to mention if the roof would even hold up to that weight.
If you have only one way in and out I would construct a intrenched fighting position in a bend of the road and try my best to clear the fields of fire. And have a BO plan.
Well! In that case, I'm going to go Hobbit style and live underground. I'll be able to maintain area control, clear fields of fire and plan my death accordingly.:no:
Guns-up.50
08-14-11, 17:52
"WOLVERINES"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :suicide:
Red Dawn
Str8Jacket722
08-14-11, 18:03
Me: Hey, what are you doing today? You: Nothing, just fortifying my house. Me: Why? You: [censored] You!
Str8Jacket722
08-14-11, 18:10
I'll be back in a minute, my tinfoil hat is too tight, I'm gonna adjust it and be right back. FIGHT THE MAN, POWER TO THE PEOPLE, and all that crap.:no:
misanthropist
08-14-11, 18:38
Well, my personal approach has been to move to the top floor of a fairly secure building, and simply harden the entrance. Could it be defeated? Absolutely. Is it much, much harder than just continuing down the block to an easier target? You bet.
My door and door frame are both steel. The door is commercial and very solid and the door frame was not difficult to harden...it was 1/16 steel so I filled it with concrete.
Technically a strata rule violation. But nobody noticed, or is likely to notice now that the work is complete. I was already mixing concrete for another project anyway, so it was only an extra hour or so of work.
Easiest way in now would be through somebody else's place, then out on to the balcony and back in. But once I get some film up on the windows, I think even that would be a pain in the ass.
I know urban living is not popular amongst many prepper types...but there are some upsides.
Now my last place was REALLY tough to get in to...it had been a steel fabrication shop and the previous owner went to great lengths to make it hard to break in.
You take a team of experienced steel fabricators and tell them, "make this place secure", man...you end up with a house that doubles as a vault.
The_War_Wagon
08-14-11, 18:59
Remember the L.A. Riots in '92? News cameras go rolling through the 'hood - burned out building... burned out building... armed Koreans on top of intact grocery store... burned out building...
The media didn't INTEND it, but it got the POINT across... :cool:
I'll be back in a minute, my tinfoil hat is too tight, I'm gonna adjust it and be right back. FIGHT THE MAN, POWER TO THE PEOPLE, and all that crap.:no:
WTF? Put the bong down man.
Typical looters will be turned away instantly by gunfire...watch those videos of any riots, as soon as the cops start firing people scatter. They're an angry crazy mob but each individual is still a person and I would assume people typically don't stand their ground when they're being shot at.
As for my house, I live on a dead-end street with 7 houses total. 6 of which are younger families (ranging from me at 26 to my oldest at about 40) and one old couple. But the cool thing is that since its a new development its not on GPS or even google maps yet, so most people probably wouldnt realize we're even here.
And if it got bad enough where we'd have to defend it, I've already spotted out a few big trees we could very easily cut down and block the road with...it wouldnt stop being on foot but no vehicles would be coming down the road at least.
Everything in FM 7-8 of the US Infantry manual basically points to one common theme which I will share...
"... There is no such thing as security without a active offensive patrolling"
Str8Jacket722
08-22-11, 16:34
WTF? Put the bong down man.
I know, don't drink the bong water... It was sarcasm. I'm tired of guys who plan for total anarchy like it's just around the bend. Basically, the best thing someone can do is have a simple plan, a contingency plan, and training. Not in that order. By the way, sarcasm isn't funny anymore when you have to explain it. Frankly, I find some of this stuff interesting, the rest....laughable. Some of these guys need to stop scanning the skies for black helicopters and spend more time with a pen and paper writing down their plan and then practicing it.
Semper Fidelis!
I know, don't drink the bong water... It was sarcasm. I'm tired of guys who plan for total anarchy like it's just around the bend. Basically, the best thing someone can do is have a simple plan, a contingency plan, and training. Not in that order. By the way, sarcasm isn't funny anymore when you have to explain it. Frankly, I find some of this stuff interesting, the rest....laughable. Some of these guys need to stop scanning the skies for black helicopters and spend more time with a pen and paper writing down their plan and then practicing it.
Semper Fidelis!
People prep for piece of mind. If a guy sleeps better at night having a .50BMG beltfed gun mounted to every corner of his home, good for him. I find it laughable that people are so bored they come here to bag on people for doing things different that they would.
People prep for piece of mind. If a guy sleeps better at night having a .50BMG beltfed gun mounted to every corner of his home, good for him. I find it laughable that people are so bored they come here to bag on people for doing things different that they would.
Well put. Some people place higher value on certain needs than others. In this forum we are concerned about safety.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/800px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
Straight Shooter
08-23-11, 02:28
I say GOOD FOR YOU Op for thinking ahead, and wanting to be as ready as possible for any upcoming unrest. I see no reason for anyone to question your motives.
As to your question about putting bars on your lower windows...what about covering those with some ornamental wrought iron type screens? Would still protect the windows, while looking WAY more inconspicuous, and wouldnt draw near the attention as bars would.
That along with the film wold be great I think. Im in an apartment, but were I still in my home I sold a few years back I would have already done this. I think Col. Cooper wrote at least one book on this subject, Ive always wanted to read it, but there are others as well. But IMO...LOW KEY is the word.
I think Col. Cooper wrote at least one book on this subject, Ive always wanted to read it, but there are others as well. But IMO...LOW KEY is the word.
He describes designing a defensive home in "To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth" which appears to be somewhat of an anthology of magazine articles he wrote previously.
This is a link to one site that has that article posted:
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=124897
I don't think I have seen anybody post this yet, but I know a guy who lived way out in the sticks. He had one attempted B&E of his house, watched as some bastard monkey stomped his neighbors dog(to death) because it alerted an intruder ( which he responded with a hail of lead from his 30-30), and the guy across the street had his motorcycle stolen after being hit in the face with a bat he had in HIS garage. There where a few other problems while he lived there but I really don't feel like beating a dead horse. Anyway he ran heavy mono line about 6" of the ground and before and after the mono line he painted fish hooks gray or tan than hung them at different heights (5'6-6'2). He also did a few other things I can't recall what right now. I think his main concern was getting the hell out of that area. Just because you live in the country doesn't mean you will be safe from urban crime.
Just a Jarhead
08-24-11, 03:02
I don't think I have seen anybody post this yet, but I know a guy who lived way out in the sticks. He had one attempted B&E of his house, watch as some bastard monkey stomped his neighbors dog(to death) because it alerted an intruder ( which he responded with a hail of lead from his 30-30), and the guy across the street had his motorcycle stolen after being hit in the face with a bat he had in HIS garage. There where a few other problems while he lived there but I really don't feel like beating a dead horse. Any way he ran heavy mono line about 6" of the ground and before and after the mono line he painted fish hooks gray or tan than hung them at different heights (5'6-6'2). He also did a few other things I can't recall what right now. I think his main concern was getting the hell out of that area. Just because you live in the country doesn't mean you will be safe from urban crime.
And this guy will add more misery to his plight...unfortunately....the bad guys would sue his pants off and win! This is a lawsuit begging to happen. You can't set booby traps for someone. Only way I would even consider these things (and I do) is in a total tits up situation!
Remember the L.A. Riots in '92? News cameras go rolling through the 'hood - burned out building... burned out building... armed Koreans on top of intact grocery store... burned out building...
The media didn't INTEND it, but it got the POINT across... :cool:
Bingo. A show of force does alot. You might not even have to fire a round in anger. Just the sight of a fella or two in vests carrying ARs, maybe poppin a few into the sky for effect, should do the trick. Also, yelling something authoritative is good medicine
"This area is open to residents only! Use of Deadly Force IS AUTHORIZED!" Haha
As for Molotovs: 1) Don't let the fukers within throw distance of your place. 2) Have extinguishers and hoses ready just in case. 3) Have a B.o.B. ready in the unlikely but possible event that you are overwhelmed.
Bingo. A show of force does alot. You might not even have to fire a round in anger. Just the sight of a fella or two in vests carrying ARs, maybe poppin a few into the sky for effect, should do the trick. Also, yelling something authoritative is good medicine
"This area is open to residents only! Use of Deadly Force IS AUTHORIZED!" Haha
As for Molotovs: 1) Don't let the fukers within throw distance of your place. 2) Have extinguishers and hoses ready just in case. 3) Have a B.o.B. ready in the unlikely but possible event that you are overwhelmed.
Well me and the boy can go up on the roof in our vests, that'll scare the hell out of 'em I'd hope.
And this guy will add more misery to his plight...unfortunately....the bad guys would sue his pants off and win! This is a lawsuit begging to happen. You can't set booby traps for someone. Only way I would even consider these things (and I do) is in a total tits up situation!
That is correct.. and really unfortunate that thing have have gotten this way in your country. Where the criminals can actually sue for the shit they did. That is what most criminals fail to accept after getting arrested is that if they had not been so ****ing stupid, and put them self in that situation they would not have gotten arrested. It is almost always some else's fault.
Best rule of thumb is to just shoot the first few people that show up in the driveway.
The looters usually will turn heel and run once they see a few dead postmen / firemen / paramedics.
the more you know.
Best rule of thumb is to just shoot the first few people that show up in the driveway.
The looters usually will turn heel and run once they see a few dead postmen / firemen / paramedics.
the more you know.
I'm sure that will work out great for you...
Mr. Goodtimes
08-24-11, 14:56
Lets take off the tinfoil hats. This thread is retarded. If things get so sideways that my home needs to be turned into FOB Hotel Foxtrot 1 Alpha, then I think it's time to consider moving to a different location, maybe in the country. I'm all for preparedness but fortifying the house? Really? Take off the tinfoil hat and use all that cash to build some nicer rifles, take some serious training courses and go hike the AT.
EDIT: No offense OP. It's just that people seem to get way to wrapped around the things that don't matter or scenarios that are so far fetched that it's ridiculous. I'm prepared for crazy things to happen (ie, mass chaos, revolution, unicorns etc armed with double rainbows etc..) but I also still have a life. I go to college, I work, I spend time on the beach with my fiance, go hiking with friends and generally enjoy life. I don't worry about looters burning down my house and shooting me through open windows. If there are looters in my neighborhood burning down houses and shooting the place up, I doubt that solid oak doors and AR-500 plates are only going to slow them, not stop them. The layout of my neighborhood lends it self to defense. There is only one way in and out, which is through the front. The neighborhood is covered on two sides by an orange grove with a chain link, barbed wire fence, a large dirt mound on the other, and at the front is a 10 foot deep drainage trench that doesn't hold water (fighting position.
The only way for vehicles in is through the front, which is easily defensible. If things get so bad that there are looters in the street, I'm grabbing my neighbor, my old man, and a couple friends and were going to the front of the neighborhood to stop them before they ever get inside.
I'm sure that will work out great for you...
no sense of humor with this one apparently.
no sense of humor with this one apparently.
No, no, you got a laugh from me. It was a good one.
I go to college.
This explains everything.
Why do some of you guys take it so personal that a guy wants to fortify his home? Big ****ing deal. If it bothers you so much, move on to a different thread. No need to bust balls.
Just a Jarhead
08-24-11, 16:19
This explains everything.
Why do some of you guys take it so personal that a guy wants to fortify his home? Big ****ing deal. If it bothers you so much, move on to a different thread. No need to bust balls.
Cause some people just like to stir shit up! There's always a few cocky smart asses around. Rather than just mind their own business they have to lob grenades. It's their arrogant, beligerant nature. I really should have just ignored him and not let him piss me off. I could just see his snarky face though.
(Mods I apologize for losing my temper, but...)
Just a Jarhead
08-24-11, 17:46
Dude, its the internet. its not worth getting worked up bro.
and in all fairness, his self-entitled wise ass college student opinion is just as valid as your grizzled veteran opinion.....
....your both wrong.
It's not what he said but the snarky young college boy "know it all" attitude in how he said it. Someone is free to disagree all they want. I for one welcome challenging opposing views and debate. But kick in the saloon door with your hands on your pistoleros like your Billy Joe Bad Ass and you're likely to get shot! Better to walk into the saloon and buy everyone a beer and make friends, enter the conversation and politely disagree if you feel the need to.
That said..you're absoultely right. Not worth getting worked up over. Moved on.
It's not what he said but the snarky young college boy "know it all" attitude in how he said it. Someone is free to disagree all they want but kick in the saloon door with your hands on your pistoleros like your Billy Joe Bad Ass and you're likely to get shot! Better to walk into the saloon and buy everyone a beer and make friends, enter the conversation and politely disagree.
That said..you're absoultely right. Not worth getting worked up over.
I would strongly encourage you to head down to the local university bar and see if you can stir up some "Get Back" on the local skinny jean wearing populous. if you can rip out some ear gauges and post pics on the web afterward I'll send you a million internet points.
...even though fortifying ones house for the collapse of society is completely off the wall.
I'm quite sure I'm goddamn fruitloops batsh!t insane for worrying that things could go bad in the world, and having a plan and the appropriate supplies for that eventuality.
I've worked my ass off for what I have. I intend to keep it, and I'm willing to invest a significant amount of my hard-earned money to defend it by any means necessary. I didn't come here looking to fight people on the why, I came here for answers to the how. If you have an issue with me wanting to hold down the fort and keep me and mine safe IF someone comes up my driveway with malicious intent for me and mine, find another thread. Don't come here calling me a nut.
I really didn't want to chew some idiot out on the internet, because I don't like stooping that low, it hurts my back, my hips, my knees. You got an issue with me wanting to have a plan for security, fine, spout off about it somewhere else. Not here.
It's not like I'm skipping meals to afford more ammo, or selling family heirlooms to buy Hesco's and build an Great Wall of kfgk14's Compound. And even if I was, since when is it your place to tell me I shouldn't? Isn't freedom a big theme here, in a shooting sports board dedicated to a firearm we have to politically and legislatively battle tooth and nail to keep our right to own?
I'm prepping. It's a central theme in this sub-forum. I've invested in many more basic preps, I consider such areas (beans, bullets, and band-aids) well-rounded. I have some expendable income, so I use it for things like this.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-25-11, 00:44
I'm quite sure I'm goddamn fruitloops batsh!t insane for worrying that things could go bad in the world, and having a plan and the appropriate supplies for that eventuality.
I've worked my ass off for what I have. I intend to keep it, and I'm willing to invest a significant amount of my hard-earned money to defend it by any means necessary. I didn't come here looking to fight people on the why, I came here for answers to the how. If you have an issue with me wanting to hold down the fort and keep me and mine safe IF someone comes up my driveway with malicious intent for me and mine, find another thread. Don't come here calling me a nut.
I really didn't want to chew some idiot out on the internet, because I don't like stooping that low, it hurts my back, my hips, my knees. You got an issue with me wanting to have a plan for security, fine, spout off about it somewhere else. Not here.
It's not like I'm skipping meals to afford more ammo, or selling family heirlooms to buy Hesco's and build an Great Wall of kfgk14's Compound. And even if I was, since when is it your place to tell me I shouldn't? Isn't freedom a big theme here, in a shooting sports board dedicated to a firearm we have to politically and legislatively battle tooth and nail to keep our right to own?
I'm prepping. It's a central theme in this sub-forum. I've invested in many more basic preps, I consider such areas (beans, bullets, and band-aids) well-rounded. I have some expendable income, so I use it for things like this.
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't. In fact, I don't care what you do. If you want to construct a circle of rocks to worship the tikki god in that's fine with me, I could care less. Doesn't mean that I don't still think you're nuts, though.
Awesome. While you're out there, pick some flowers for the rest of us. But if you're so care-free, why are you progressing through the forum like this: M4Carbine.net Forums > Preparation, Preparedness & Prevention > Disaster Preparation & Planning > Hardening the home for defense. It seems you're lost.
Listen man, if you don't give a shit then go elsewhere and stop pissing people off. You think people are nuts for preparing, fine. What's the worst that happens? Nothing ever happens and we had fun discussing stuff and preparing things around the house. If something does happen...well you're the starving idiot crawling around begging for scraps. And none of us on here will so much as give you a ****ing tootsie-pop. Some religions mandate this type of preparedness (food stores for a minimum of 1 year - Mormonism). You gonna go as far as to call the Mormon religion crazy because they're buying canned goods while you're hiking and studying reading, writing, and 'rithmatic?
Bottom line. Fine...you've said your piece, we're nuts and you're not. So kindly return to your pedestal and leave us to stumble about in our feces.
EDIT: I probably shouldn't say this since you've made us look like assholes but, I went to college too. And if you pay attention only half the days you're there, you will learn about very serious natural disasters that are not far-fetched at all. You will also observe a progression by the majority of this generation towards unrest (no matter how well-off they are), entitlement, and other like-minded negative thinking. So there's more I observed from college days than ass, beer, ass, ass, and beer. Open your eyes.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Back to us crazy folks fortifying our houses...anyone know what 2x6 constructed walls with insulation, dry-wall and shakes will stop in terms of incoming rounds? I'd assume not much more that a .22, but I could be wrong.
Just a Jarhead
08-25-11, 18:27
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Back to us crazy folks fortifying our houses...anyone know what 2x6 constructed walls with insulation, dry-wall and shakes will stop in terms of incoming rounds? I'd assume not much more that a .22, but I could be wrong.
this is will be an eye opener for you!
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
this is will be an eye opener for you!
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
Hmmm...Glad I bought them plates, ain't I?
I wonder how much energy the 5.56 has coming out that 12th board?
It seems pretty hard/expensive to try to fortify the walls and doors against rifle fire. Worth it to fortify them against breaking in and thrown objects, but dirt/sand are much cheaper and effective to soak up high powered rifle fire. Such as surrounding the house with berms or raised brick planters. Interesting that around the suburbs of Portland many industrial and commercial buildings and campuses are surrounded by 12-20 ft high landscaped berms. Probably for privacy or to make city planners happy about hiding large buildings. However it seems it provides much better security as well.
Of course you have to have enough property to do that. If you live in a Condo or townhouse you may be left with reinforcing the walls and doors as best you can. How effective would a kevlar blanket be to hang loose on the inside of a wall to stop rifle bullets?
Just a Jarhead
08-26-11, 03:19
How effective would a kevlar blanket be to hang loose on the inside of a wall to stop rifle bullets?
You can do anything if you've got the money. Kevlar fabric thick enough to be of any use & large enough to cover a wall is very expensive.
Most realistic idea is proabably 3M film (or substitute) for the windows to prevent rocks & molatov cocktails from coming in and sandbags in side to sleep behind or fight from behind if necessary. 3M film is affordable, can be appilied yourself and is a good idea against burglars anyhow. As things get rougher burglaries (and home invasions) will skyrocket. An alarm system is a nice idea too if you don't already have one as are some motion sensored flood lights around the house.
I feel fortunate that I have 8" poured concrete walls all the way around. Only the windows would need sandbags. The roof is flat 1" concrete tile. Some 3M film to prevent molatov cocktails from coming in and I'm about as good as you can get for suburban living in a community.
Let's check our fire and remember what the thread is about.
I dislike deleted posts and REALLY hate to close threads, whether I'm poster or mod, but I will delete if it can save a valid thread.
I never have and hope I naver have to close a thread.
It seems pretty hard/expensive to try to fortify the walls and doors against rifle fire. Worth it to fortify them against breaking in and thrown objects, but dirt/sand are much cheaper and effective to soak up high powered rifle fire. Such as surrounding the house with berms or raised brick planters. Interesting that around the suburbs of Portland many industrial and commercial buildings and campuses are surrounded by 12-20 ft high landscaped berms. Probably for privacy or to make city planners happy about hiding large buildings. However it seems it provides much better security as well.
Of course you have to have enough property to do that. If you live in a Condo or townhouse you may be left with reinforcing the walls and doors as best you can. How effective would a kevlar blanket be to hang loose on the inside of a wall to stop rifle bullets?
I'd assume (and that's never a good idea) that after coming through the six inches of insulation in the wall of my house as well as the plywood, shakes, drywall, and whatever furniture I pushed against the wall (most of my furniture is heavy oak) the 5.56 would have slowed down some. I don't know if a Kevlar blanket would catch it, but that many Kevlar blankets would be damn expensive. I think sand/dirt is the best way. I still have the sandbags, and if things get bad, I'll stack 'em up and cover them in tyvek, make it look like a house under construction. Also, The tyvek will be harder to light than burlap, in the event of Molotov cocktails being thrown.
I feel fortunate that I have 8" poured concrete walls all the way around. Only the windows would need sandbags. The roof is flat 1" concrete tile. Some 3M film to prevent molatov cocktails from coming in and I'm about as good as you can get for suburban living in a community.
Now that is a well built building! I was talking with an co-worker from India and he say he was surprised at how thinly walled our American houses are, just sticks and wallboard. He said a typical Indian home is built of very thick concrete walls strong enough to add a second and third floor as the family grows (parents on ground floor, married children on upper floors). Also that windows are not down low for viewing but toward top of wall for light. I was surprised that a country like India had a tradition of much better home construction (for those with homes), but I guess it reflects the centuries of invasions and tribal warfare.
Anyway, concrete rules!
this is will be an eye opener for you!
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
No idea if this post will get deleted or not but here it goes
That's good 2 pages of reading...don't really care to know how much energy it has coming out, the fact that it came through at all is eye-opening. Thanks for the link, JAJ
This thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60821) has a lot of valuable information in it related to the OP. Good luck!
Just a Jarhead
08-26-11, 15:13
No idea if this post will get deleted or not but here it goes
NA...Mod was just not happy that I got unhinged there for a second. And rightfully so. He's just doing his job. It's a personal defect of mine. I have an extremely low tolerance for b.s. & bullies of any sort. I don't know what's wrong with me. I've always been like that. I was the one who was always sticking up for the kids being bullied in the school yard and I never was one to back away from a good fight. Damn I miss the smell of napalm in the morning!
First post here, but have learned a lot over the last few months reading, so thanks for all who have posted.
Since the vast majority of home invasions occur through doors, I chose to protect my family with the Ultimate Lock. Check it out on the web- this thing is on all my exterior doors and is a beast that I have complete faith in. No one is coming through my doors with that lock on! Some Lowe's now stock them.
I'm having my windows protected with security film soon. Won't stop a determined attacker, but will slow him down long enough for me to figure out a defensive plan that would stop him.
Finally, you might consider making a safe room. It's much easier to fortify a small area rather than your whole house. Concrete blocks, insulated concrete forms, or even retro-fitting a closet with added studs and ply (with some sand in between) can make for a good place to weather a storm, whether it be a tornado or a hailstorm of lead. Let us know what you decide, and good luck!
First post here, but have learned a lot over the last few months reading, so thanks for all who have posted.
Since the vast majority of home invasions occur through doors, I chose to protect my family with the Ultimate Lock. Check it out on the web- this thing is on all my exterior doors and is a beast that I have complete faith in. No one is coming through my doors with that lock on! Some Lowe's now stock them.
I'm having my windows protected with security film soon. Won't stop a determined attacker, but will slow him down long enough for me to figure out a defensive plan that would stop him.
Finally, you might consider making a safe room. It's much easier to fortify a small area rather than your whole house. Concrete blocks, insulated concrete forms, or even retro-fitting a closet with added studs and ply (with some sand in between) can make for a good place to weather a storm, whether it be a tornado or a hailstorm of lead. Let us know what you decide, and good luck!
A good, sturdy lock is obviously a good choice, but you need to make sure the door frame is reinforced, especially around the lock area. A good lock with a weak door frame won't do you any good. Eliminate the weak link.
You should already have a good defensive plan before an attacker gets to your door or windows...if you don't, and the threat presents itself, then its too late.
A saferoom is a good idea on paper, but maybe not realistic. If your house gets overrun, and you retreat to the "safe room", what good does that do you? You're trapped and probably will not weather the "seige". If done right, a defensive position within the house would be more reasonable and would give you the option to fight from a superior position or to bug out if you have to.
Just my opinions on the subject. Take it for what its worth...which isn't much :p
A saferoom is a good idea on paper, but maybe not realistic. If your house gets overrun, and you retreat to the "safe room", what good does that do you? You're trapped and probably will not weather the "seige". If done right, a defensive position within the house would be more reasonable and would give you the option to fight from a superior position or to bug out if you have to.
Good point. The safe room should not be a passive "lock yourselves away" design. Rather the safe room should be a place to regroup, kit up, observe, and have alternate entry/exit so you could get behind the intruder. Such as an exit to outside or into another room from the entry. Better to stop intruders at a gate wall to the property, and if not there than at the doors/windows. And if not there then have enough warning of breaking in that you can stop them in the process of doing so. The safe room would e a good place for other family members to retreat to so they are out of the line of fire and cannot be taken hostage. And as a retreat for yourself if out numbered.
If you want to use sand bags just put a tarp down on the inside of the house and bag it. In reality you will only need to do about waist level. Thant is enough to get behind and take cover/return fire.
If you are testing what your stuff can stop I would look at using the most common CIV rounds; 30-06, .270, 300 win mag, 308, 223, 12 gauge, and of course all of the pistol rounds you can think of. In reality it is not going to be the Taliban with a PKM.
You know they sell 4x8 sheets of ballistic paneling.. some Judges have it around there benches..
also consider diamond plate in between the walls.. worst case it may deflect the incoming round down..
also ballistic cloth/blankets are lighter then steel and will resist most pistol rounds..
also laminated Lexan helps also and is available and not so obvious..
I agree with maybe sandbags behind the shrubs theory..
QuietShootr
08-30-11, 09:55
Diamond plate won't do shit against rifle rounds.
Diamond plate won't do shit against rifle rounds.
never said rifle rounds.. also what about intruders trying to cut thru with a SAW or SLEDGE.. better some steel in the walls than none.. IMHO..
Mr. Goodtimes
08-30-11, 10:59
I'll play and play fair here, even though I don't agree with everything being said.
First off, are we talking urban neighborhood or in the country hardening?
Ideally I would like to live in the country and I plan to build a hardened home; with the primary intent not to repel hordes of looters but to harden my home against storms; the nice thing is it will also do well if SHTF.
My plan is to construct the entire home out precast reinforced concrete or cinder block filled with concrete and then use brick or stone for a nice outer fascia which will also add more protection. The home will be raised with the first story being a large garage, the second story being the actual living space. On the outside will be a wrap around porch. The only access points will be from the down stairs garage or a set of removable stairs on the outside porch. All windows and doors will feature storm shutters.
Now this is where I'm going to get a little over the edge and paranoid, I'm going to include a serious sprinkler system integrated into both the roof and the outer wrap around porch to prevent fire in the event someone attempts to burn the place.
If prefabricated concrete or cinder block filled with concrete won't stop a round I'm not really sure what will. My surroundings will be my best defense against the shit heads of society in that I'll be far away from any major population zone. Truth be told, if SHTF like I think a lot of people here think it will then a city is no place to be. At the first sign of things getting shitty I'm heading out.
At this point, I don't know how practical it would be to build a large ballistic proof house, at least for me.
I would be more interested in sealing the house to keep looters out or if I have to funel possible intruders into a specific part of the house. This will simplify security to an extent.
Here in south florida we have accordion style shutters, I would like to hear some ideas on how to fortify those to keep people out. I think this might help with ballistics too. If they can't see you I doubt they'll shoot just to shoot.
R.
Just a Jarhead
11-02-11, 03:32
Here in south florida we have accordion style shutters, I would like to hear some ideas on how to fortify those to keep people out. I think this might help with ballistics too. If they can't see you I doubt they'll shoot just to shoot.
R.
South Florida here too. Those shutters. your tile roof and most likely block construction, are a good defense against molatov cocktails.
Ballistically, fuggetaboutit! Any rifle round will zip right through them. Also if you shutter competely up how will you observe what's going on outside or be able to fire?
I prefer 3M window film for this reason. And enough sandbags to build a few defensive positions inside the home. Leave them in the garage. Here in Florida, those sandbags also are needed if your roof leaks after a nasty storm and you need to secure a tarp on your roof til you fix the leak. Sandbags work best for this so they pull double duty. Stack em in the garage. For those non-Floridians, having a couple tarps in the garage is SOP!
JaJ,
yeah i though about that and haven't really come up with an answer yet.
One of the things I have been looking into recently has to do with storm shutters also, but with a twist. I dont live in an area that has justification for storm shutters for their original intent but a local business in my area had some shutters installed that he had fabricated from 1" square metal tubing for the frames and steele strap welded in for the shutter part, had them all powder coated and installed and from 15' away they look just like any run of the mill shutter, quite nice looking really. They open them up in the morning and close them down at night and if you weren't looking you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between these and standard shutters.
Not sure what the cost would be but might be worth looking into. Obviously wouldn't do anything for ballistic protection but would go a long way toward general protection of the home I would think.
Just a Jarhead
11-03-11, 13:18
Seems like an awfully expensive solution. If we agree that shutters are not effective against rifle rounds, then what you'e trying to accomplish is trying to prevent intrusion of bricks, other debris, molatav cocktails, human beings with bats, crow bars etc,or at least slow them down long enough to enagage with a few well placed rifle shots of your own to stop the threat.
Watch some of these video's of window film
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=all+pro+window+tinting+security+film&aq=f
and then here's a place where you can buy DIY film. As an example, I've calculated the cost to do (10) 3'x4' windows (120 sq. feet), will cost about $464 to get 24 linear feet of this film (24' x 5') http://www.diywindowsecurity.com/product_info.php?products_id=38&osCsid=c3824c54ee19be421dd23e4df4c06eac
That's an affordable security measure most can afford with all the other crap we need to get! Now granted the DIY film is 9 mil thick whereas the film in the video's is 12. BUt 9 will provide a good degree of stopping power. Long enough for you to engage the threat.
ETA: you may need more than the amount I determined if it needs to be one continuous sheet on a window with no seams. But still seems much more affordable way to go. I haven't done it yet and have just begun seriously looking into it myself. It's the only reasonably priced solution I've been able to come up with yet.
I agree that it potentially could be too expensive, but it might still be an option for some and was throwing it out there for some thought. I personally thought that it was a pretty ingenious way to harden a structure, albeit more for smash and grab, without makeing the place look like a prison like alot of the security grates tend to do.
The 3M film is great stuff and very practical for most folks and I will probably go this route also, but I am still going to look at combineing this with other options since I believe we can all agree that the more layers of security the better.
I grew up in a rural city in the L48. Lots of roads out of town, logging roads into the hills, plenty of places to bail off to if the need arose. Woods were full of deer, game birds, and had water.
I now live in Anchorage, AK. Take a look at a map of Anchorage. Pretty much only 1 road out of town and heading to the hills is going to be more than most folks can handle, especially in winter. With small kids in the house I need to have enough stuff stashed to defend and survive. But in all reality I'd need a network to stay warm and safe.
While I have plans to continue the hardening of my home, my best defense here is build a network and have a plan. It'd be a heck of a chore to get out town (from where I live) in a large mass panic riot filled event..
Finding like minded folks and working together is my best option.
xjustintimex
11-23-11, 15:10
What do you do if your at college and live in an apartment :P
What do you do if your at college and live in an apartment :P
Graduate faster, get a storage unit, and put supplies/food/etc. inside it. At the first sign of bad times, get your BOB (which should stay in your apartment, with a rifle) and get to the unit. you could keep a street-legal dirt bike or a compact, highly-efficient motorcycle in said storage unit as well.
Sorry for the pseudo-necro-post, but I just had a realization:
I heat with wood. What if I were to stack said wood around the house on the porch? I have a LOT of wood, too much to store in the garage. Frost and such just bucks my outdoor wood piles, so it'd be easier on me to bring said wood onto the porch (quicker access, too) the wood would be protected from the elements, and would provide an excellent barrier against incoming fire (slow it down a lot, maybe sparing the damage to the home). As I build up more and more wood, I'd stack it higher and higher around the house on the porch (which we never use anyway, product of the previous owner's love for their wraparound porch on Nantucket). Currently, I have enough wood to build a barrier about chest-high around the whole house. It would certainly slow forced entry through the wall.
I'm still trying to figure out how to harden the porch against becoming a route to the second floor windows without putting bars on the windows. Ideas?
Moose-Knuckle
01-05-12, 20:45
Sorry for the pseudo-necro-post, but I just had a realization:
I heat with wood. What if I were to stack said wood around the house on the porch? I have a LOT of wood, too much to store in the garage. Frost and such just bucks my outdoor wood piles, so it'd be easier on me to bring said wood onto the porch (quicker access, too) the wood would be protected from the elements, and would provide an excellent barrier against incoming fire (slow it down a lot, maybe sparing the damage to the home). As I build up more and more wood, I'd stack it higher and higher around the house on the porch (which we never use anyway, product of the previous owner's love for their wraparound porch on Nantucket). Currently, I have enough wood to build a barrier about chest-high around the whole house. It would certainly slow forced entry through the wall.
I'm still trying to figure out how to harden the porch against becoming a route to the second floor windows without putting bars on the windows. Ideas?
I am somewhat of a Westerns aficionado, there are countless movies depicting a besieged pioneer who had a marauding war party set his cabin ablaze to “smoke’em out”.
Essentially whatever combustible material that is stacked against the outside of your home can and will be used to ignite a fire to engulf the structure achieving the desired effect of having the occupants of said structure egress from it into an ambush.
A lot of the pioneer homes had a earthen roof as dirt does not catch fire very easy. The common practice of the day was to lob lit torches and or arrows onto thatched roofs.
I am somewhat of a Westerns aficionado, there are countless movies depicting a besieged pioneer who had a marauding war party set his cabin ablaze to “smoke’em out”.
Essentially whatever combustible material that is stacked against the outside of your home can and will be used to ignite a fire to engulf the structure achieving the desired effect of having the occupants of said structure egress from it into an ambush.
A lot of the pioneer homes had a earthen roof as dirt does not catch fire very easy. The common practice of the day was to lob lit torches and or arrows onto thatched roofs.
You are right about the fire potential. In defense of my idea, the porch roof is low enough that it would be a challenge to toss a flaming torch through the space between the railing and the gutters, which also hang relatively low. and I have a plan for sprinkler system defense against fire utilizing a cistern uphill of me; the porch could be added to it. Also, it would be difficult to get within tossing range of my home (long sight lines, no cover within tossing range). My roof is metal, so good luck with lighting the roof on fire. it is a legitimate point. I have well-laid plans to make climbing onto the porch a painful proposition (between the barbed wire, the dog and the thorned bushes that infest the property, have fun, and that's before I'm there to shoot anyone stupid enough to attempt it). I guess I'll have to consider this further.
Moose-Knuckle
01-06-12, 14:46
You are right about the fire potential. In defense of my idea, the porch roof is low enough that it would be a challenge to toss a flaming torch through the space between the railing and the gutters, which also hang relatively low. and I have a plan for sprinkler system defense against fire utilizing a cistern uphill of me; the porch could be added to it. Also, it would be difficult to get within tossing range of my home (long sight lines, no cover within tossing range). My roof is metal, so good luck with lighting the roof on fire. it is a legitimate point. I have well-laid plans to make climbing onto the porch a painful proposition (between the barbed wire, the dog and the thorned bushes that infest the property, have fun, and that's before I'm there to shoot anyone stupid enough to attempt it). I guess I'll have to consider this further.
The situation will be different for everyone. I think you are ahead of the game with a metal roof.
montanadave
01-06-12, 23:05
In my defense, I did use the "search" button a time or two to see if this book had been mentioned previously and didn't see it so if I missed it and am repeating old info, my apologies.
I ran across a book titled "The Secure Home" by a fellow named Joel Skousen (http://www.joelskousen.com/Secure/secure.html) and ended up buying a copy. It's quite comprehensive and has a lot of good information, at least from my admittedly limited perspective.
On the subject of ballistic barriers, Skousen offers a rather low-tech, cost effective solution which he claims will stop military rifle calibers up 7.62mm. The solution is to incorporate an additional 2X4 wall partition using metal studs, covered in plywood rather than drywall, with the void filled with 1/2" gravel. Shit for insulation value so you need to double up with a standard insulated wall for exterior walls but even in an already finished house a person could easily install a knee-wall which would offer considerable protection. Interior walls for a safe room would be relatively easy as well.
Anyone have any experience or thoughts as to the effectiveness of such a system?
I was gonna say that, but I'm late to the party.
Gravel is the only good cheap substance to fill sandbags with for ballistic protection. Dirt and sand don't cut it.
Moose-Knuckle
01-07-12, 02:58
If I when the lottery Hardened Structures (http://www.hardenedstructures.com/) will be building my new home. :eek:
If I when the lottery Hardened Structures (http://www.hardenedstructures.com/) will be building my new home. :eek:
Those are amazing and I imagine they are very expensive. I want one now lol
Just a Jarhead
01-07-12, 11:23
I was gonna say that, but I'm late to the party.
Gravel is the only good cheap substance to fill sandbags with for ballistic protection. Dirt and sand don't cut it.
Not sure where you're getting your info. Sand is an incredible bullet stopper which is why the military has used it for decades & decades. Check this out. I posted this a long time ago so it's probably hard to find buried deep in a thread somewhere. It's 4 pages. Just 6" of sand will stop most threats including .308, .45 ACP, .223
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm
I've read elsewhere that for the weight and volume, gravel is best. I mean, yes, if you fill 3 rows deep bags with dirt, you'll be fine. I read (on survival blog) that gravel is the best material for a single layer.
I will certainly check out your link and defer to those with proof or first hand knowledge.
montanadave
01-08-12, 07:44
The author previously cited states, "The best and most efficient form of bulletproofing (when you desire a completely hidden or do-it-yourself system)... involves the use of 3/4 or 1/2-inch gravel packed within the outer walls of a framed house. The best thing about gravel is that it can take multiple hits with no degradation. It simply chews up bullets, unlike brick or cement which can be chiseled away by multiple shots. A measly 3-1/2" stud wall will absorb the full impact of multiple high velocity 7.62 military rounds without degradation." (Skousen, The Secure Home, 3rd Ed., pg. 275)
I've no doubt sand bags will provide an effective barrier when stacked sufficiently deep but I question whether 3-1/2" of sand is going to stop a 30-06 rifle round. If what Skousen claims is true, this gravel wall system would provide more "bang for the buck" in the least conspicuous space.
Just a Jarhead
01-08-12, 09:53
^ this.
There are numerous good materials for bulletproofing, gravel certainly is an optimum choice. I was simply responding to your erroneous post that sand and dirt did not cut it when they most certainly do.
Next erroneous thing... gravel does not weigh less than sand per same cubic ft. volume measurement. 70-80 lbs /cubic ft. for sand and 100 lbs/cubic foot per dry gravel. http://www.epa.gov/osw/partnerships/wastewise/pubs/conversions.pdf (sand & gravel both found on page 14)
Lastly, I found someone who claims they performed field tests using Skousen's suggestion. Although there are no visuals, if his test are true, gravel may indeed be superior used in the manner described as "wall fill". http://www.wakeupforeign.com/?p=165&option=com_wordpress&Itemid=1
How many people will really go to this extent though. Let's be realistic, unless you're building a new house now. One out of a million will do this and since there probably aren't even a million of us serious preppers, that means no one. Good "what if" conversation, that's about it. Sandbags at various fighting positions or sleeping positions (mattress on floor surrounded by sandbags) are probably the most likely scenario and most won't even take this level of preparation.
-Sandbags are portable. Keep them in garage til needed. No ruining/altering the interior.
-Repairable(masking tape stops bullethole leaks)
-Great fire extinguisher if needed.
-Great rifle rest.
-6" of sand stopped a 510 gr. 45-70 often preferred over a 30-06 for big bad grizzly bears. As you noted from The box o' truth test, handguns fared better against sand. The higher velocity of rifle rounds when they hit the sand tore the rounds up into pieces where the handgun bullets remained in tact.
Military has been using them forever. Good enough for me.
montanadave
01-08-12, 10:17
Lastly, I found someone who claims they performed field tests using Skousen's suggestion. Although there are no visuals, if his test are true, gravel may indeed be superior used in the manner described as "wall fill". http://www.wakeupforeign.com/?p=165&option=com_wordpress&Itemid=1
Thanks for posting that link. While it seems obvious after reading it, I had not considered the probability of a sand-filled wall leaking "like an hourglass" when penetrated, as opposed to the obvious advantages of 3/4" gravel.
I have plans for building a country home in the next 5 years and am actively researching design options with a significant focus on home security. While I doubt I would use a gravel-filled wall system throughout the house, the building site lends itself well to a partially earth-bermed structure and incorporating a gravel-filled interior wall to create a safe retreat area in the rear of the home seems a reasonable and cost-effective solution.
Just a Jarhead
01-08-12, 10:21
Thanks for posting that link. While it seems obvious after reading it, I had not considered the probability of a sand-filled wall leaking "like an hourglass" when penetrated, as opposed to the obvious advantages of 3/4" gravel.
I have plans for building a country home in the next 5 years and am actively researching design options with a significant focus on home security. While I doubt I would use a gravel-filled wall system throughout the house, the building site lends itself well to a partially earth-bermed structure and incorporating a gravel-filled interior wall to create a safe retreat area in the rear of the home seems a reasonable and cost-effective solution.
Wouldn't 6" poured solid concrete walls be a better choice when building new construction? Hell make it 8" if that makes you feel better. Simpler, cheaper in the long run, effective? I mean unless your planning on being besieged like the Alamo this should do very well.
montanadave
01-08-12, 10:33
Wouldn't a 6" poured concrete foundation be a better choice when building new construction? Simpler, cheaper in the long run, effective?
Certainly. However, the house (as I currently imagine it) will likely have a walkout basement to the southwest to facilitate a passive-solar design with the rear of the basement area earth bermed on the remaining three sides. A gravel-filled interior wall to partition the rear of the basement (within the earth-bermed area) would provide a secure safe-room.
Depending on the size of the house (still in the planning stage), pouring a solid concrete wall might prove the smarter way to go. The gravel-filled wall system is certainly geared more towards the retro-fit or remodel.
Nathan_Bell
01-08-12, 10:36
The graveled filled wall thing got me thinking.
Ever since I have first read about ICF construction it has seemed to me to be the way to go for a secure home. Depending on your area they cost 8-20% more to construct, but you have a concrete frickin house with R50 walls and if you do Lite-Deck for your floors the same insulation roof.
Exterior treatment has always stymied me, as a few magazines from an FN-FAL would chew holes through the concrete core of the wall.
The ICF forms have exterior attachment points for hanging siding or wythes of bricks. What if you upgraded those points to attach a 4" galvanized Z stud, outer faced that with house wrap, then 3/8ths OSB, another layer of house wrap, and then sided from there. You would have that void to fill with the 3/4 gravel and since it is a steel superstructure, you could fill to the top.
Probably add another 5-8% building costs, but you would have a damned secure building completely incognito.
Thanks for posting that link. While it seems obvious after reading it, I had not considered the probability of a sand-filled wall leaking "like an hourglass" when penetrated, as opposed to the obvious advantages of 3/4" gravel.
I have plans for building a country home in the next 5 years and am actively researching design options with a significant focus on home security. While I doubt I would use a gravel-filled wall system throughout the house, the building site lends itself well to a partially earth-bermed structure and incorporating a gravel-filled interior wall to create a safe retreat area in the rear of the home seems a reasonable and cost-effective solution.
The graveled filled wall thing got me thinking.
Ever since I have first read about ICF construction it has seemed to me to be the way to go for a secure home. Depending on your area they cost 8-20% more to construct, but you have a concrete frickin house with R50 walls and if you do Lite-Deck for your floors the same insulation roof.
Exterior treatment has always stymied me, as a few magazines from an FN-FAL would chew holes through the concrete core of the wall.
The ICF forms have exterior attachment points for hanging siding or wythes of bricks. What if you upgraded those points to attach a 4" galvanized Z stud, outer faced that with house wrap, then 3/8ths OSB, another layer of house wrap, and then sided from there. You would have that void to fill with the 3/4 gravel and since it is a steel superstructure, you could fill to the top.
Probably add another 5-8% building costs, but you would have a damned secure building completely incognito.
That is brilliant, as a matter of fact. I'm just gonna take that idea and save it for a rainy day.
I wasn't offended btw. If I had an erroneous idea from elsewhere on the internets, correct away.
That's why I'm here. That's why we're all here. To learn.
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