View Full Version : "I think my gun is off, can you shoot it and tell me?"
So one of the things I have learned about teaching new gun owners how to shoot is that at some point they will question whether it is the gun or them. "I mean, can I really aim here and then have rounds impact a full foot low and to the left?? "Something HAS to be wrong with my sights right??" Uhm, no, you are jerking the HOLY HELL out of the trigger and are just barely missing your own foot. "Prove it!"
Oh the joy of this! Ever wanted to shoot a SIG, HK, M&P, Glock, 1911, XD, hi-point, Jensen, Ruger P85, Taurus Judge, revolver, LCP, etc, etc, etc??? Well now is your chance! Just as an FYI, you ALSO have to shoot the gun well because if you do not, the student will get it in their head that the gun is inaccurate and not their fault (which is almost never the case).
For me, I enjoy the challenge of this for two reasons. The first reasons is that it allows me prove the theory that it is always the singer and never the song. So if I want to prove that I am as good a shooter as I THINK I am, I have to perform on cue.
The second reason is that it gives me a chance to see just how F*CKED UP some of these guns really are. Horrible sights, 12lbs triggers, mile long trigger pulls, etc, etc.
So if you want to see just how good you are, start teaching new shooters and pretty soon you will be out of your comfort zone and exploring new things! :D
C4
This is one of the reasons I keep going to the public range on weekends, despite deer season coming up and the risk of someone going full retard. Last week some poor guy went through a whole 20 round box of full-retail .270 trying to sight in his new Savage. It was shooting about 8 inches low and right at 25 yards. He'd unscrew the caps to his Barska scope, turn it 1 or 2 clicks up and left, and shoot another 3 rounds....
I actually had a G19 which had sights that were off. Drifted them a little to the right...and Voila. Fixed.
But usually you're right. It's the Indian, Not the Arrow.
I had a student/officer who "knew it all" (at least according to them). Shooting 8 inch steel plates at 15 yards and was continually missing low & left (right handed shooter). Said officer comes to me and says "my sights are off" so I shoot their weapon and wow, the sights were perfect but I still couldn't convince them that it wasn't the weapon. Some just never learn.
I actually had a G19 which had sights that were off. Drifted them a little to the right...and Voila. Fixed.
But usually you're right. It's the Indian, Not the Arrow.
Oh ya, I have seen sights that have drifted, bit this almost never the case.
C4
I had a student/officer who "knew it all" (at least according to them). Shooting 8 inch steel plates at 15 yards and was continually missing low & left (right handed shooter). Said officer comes to me and says "my sights are off" so I shoot their weapon and wow, the sights were perfect but I still couldn't convince them that it wasn't the weapon. Some just never learn.
This is when you say; your gun is "broke," want to sell it for $200? :D
C4
JeepDriver
08-14-11, 20:36
I worked part time for 7 years at an indoor public range.
I couldn't even guess how many guns I've shot for that exact reason. Everyone automatically thinks the fault is in the gun. They could never be at fault.
I worked part time for 7 years at an indoor public range.
I couldn't even guess how many guns I've shot for that exact reason. Everyone automatically thinks the fault is in the gun. They could never be at fault.
Fun isn't it! The down side is that I never get to shoot a gun that I like. For instance, I would love to see some old historical firearm ora gun that I cannot afford.
What do I get? Well, last month it was an XD. :alcoholic: For the record I shot it very well (not well enough to make me want one though). :)
C4
It all depends on the individual and how honest they decide to be with themselves...
Being on the other side of this topic, i had a few days where I swore it was the rifle or the ammo and not me. Calmed down, thought things through, dry fired the **** out of it. Read a book or two and a ton of posts.
Went back and improved triple fold with the same rifle and ammo which then allowed me to improve with practice (still improving).
If you think about it, even bad guys and terrorists believe they are in the right, whether over religious beliefs a moment of need/self preservation or a feeling of self appointed rights, etc... So imagine how stubborn people will be when it comes to small things... Plus it's not cool to be a bad shot so it must be the gun/rifle.
Once you realize you know nothing, you'll learn something everyday. The moment you think you know everything you start working backwards everyday from then on regardless of what the topic is.
It's just now honest you decide to be with yourself. :D
With that said, I still tell myself I am handsome... Sometimes you just have to lie to yourself. :haha:
I had a new Colt XSE that I was shooting. The previous range session, I had done well with that pistol. On this session, I was shooting a pattern instead of a shot group. My inner child was suffering extreme emotional distress. On my last string, the target had zero hits. While I am not a pistol ace, that was not at all like me. I started the assessment, looked at my pistol and saw that the screw holding the rear sight in place was gone and that the sight had shifted left to the point that the sight was two thirds out of the dove tail. Having not noticed the movement to that point, I really felt stupid.:( Same thing happened on a second XSE. Both have been to Sandy Garrett for some rework since then.:cool:
Students will always come up with all kinds of questions. What makes a good instructor is the ability to show them where they are in the wrong and help them correct that. It's not about you 'feeling good' because you know so much more than them or to prove that you're s good shooter. You can teach a class without firing a single shot yourself and you don't have to shoot their gun to prove or demonstrate anything. But that's just me. YMMW.
innocuous_username
08-14-11, 21:55
I'm guilty of this one.
Only did it once, and not all that long ago. I had just switched from a 1911 to a G19, so first things first, I swapped out the sights. I did the sight install myself, and went to the range. I was still adapting to a real trigger pull, after being spoiled by the 1911 for far too long, and all of my rounds were heading left. I assumed it was me, but I just didn't know. Having a more experienced shooter fire it was really just part of my troubleshooting process and it let me concentrate on what I needed to do (work trigger control).
When I read the title I thought it meant the gun was turned off.:no:
Shadow1198
08-14-11, 23:16
The saddest thing I ever saw at the range I used to work, a local campus LEO came in to practice with his duty shotgun. At 3 yards (no joke), with slugs, he missed 3 out of 5 shots on a B27 target. He wasn't shouldering the gun properly and was basically resting it on his bicep and holding it to the side of him in some abortion of an attempt to point shoot or something. WOW.
I get this at almost every class it is always the same answer.
The truth is I love to help them out I get a great deal of satisfaction from helping others.
Students will always come up with all kinds of questions. What makes a good instructor is the ability to show them where they are in the wrong and help them correct that. It's not about you 'feeling good' because you know so much more than them or to prove that you're s good shooter. You can teach a class without firing a single shot yourself and you don't have to shoot their gun to prove or demonstrate anything. But that's just me. YMMW.
You may have mistaken my post. It was meant to be funny and the fact that it you get to shoot a lot of guns that you most likely would either never own or shoot. We ALWAYS answer students questions and do our best to fix their issues. In fact, we care so much about this that we offer FREE pistol and carbine classes.
Shooting guns you are not familiar with stretches you as a shooter. Meaning that if you are a 1911 shooter with a 4LBS triggger and now have to shoot a DA revolver with a 12LBS trigger, you will have to work at it. This is a great way to make sure that your ability to manipulate the trigger straight to the rear is there.
IMHO, once a student gets a mental block that there is something mechanically wrong with their pistol, they will shut down and not learn any more. If you can show them the kind of accuracy that their gun is capable of, their confidence will go through the roof.
Personally, I never shoot a student’s gun UNLESS they ask. Prior to that, we are working on all the fundamentals to get them going in the right direct.
All good instructors shoot drills in front of their students. Many people are visual leaners so it is a very important for them to see how it is done. So if you are at a SHOOTING class and the instructor does not shoot any of the drills, run away.
C4
I'm guilty of this one.
Only did it once, and not all that long ago. I had just switched from a 1911 to a G19, so first things first, I swapped out the sights. I did the sight install myself, and went to the range. I was still adapting to a real trigger pull, after being spoiled by the 1911 for far too long, and all of my rounds were heading left. I assumed it was me, but I just didn't know. Having a more experienced shooter fire it was really just part of my troubleshooting process and it let me concentrate on what I needed to do (work trigger control).
The 1911 trigger can be a "crutch" for many and hinder them from shooting other guns (like Glock's, M&P, etc). No other pistol has as nice of a trigger as a 1911.
IMHO, one of the mistakes people make is to learn to shoot on a 1911. If they would have learned to shoot on say a Glock, then they can shoot anything with ease. Not the case if you come from a 1911.
C4
I get this at almost every class it is always the same answer.
The truth is I love to help them out I get a great deal of satisfaction from helping others.
Agree. Instructors that don't like being around students and seeing them grow are in the wrong business.
C4
IMHO, once a student gets a mental block that there is something mechanically wrong with their pistol, they will shut down and not learn any more. If you can show them the kind of accuracy that their gun is capable of, their confidence will go through the roof.
So true....
All good instructors shoot drills in front of their students. Many people are visual leaners so it is a very important for them to see how it is down. So if you are at a SHOOTING class and the instructor does not shoot any of the drills, run away.
Yup. The last thing I want is to have an instructor who can't do what they are attempting to teach.
It all depends on the individual and how honest they decide to be with themselves...
There are more than a few people where I work that blame our duty pistol for their piss poor shooting. It happens so frequently that it has almost become an "acceptable" excuse to blame 'the trigger pull' to explain god awful shooting habits.
"If I had my old glock I would be shooting expert every time!"
BULLLLLSHIT.
I have exponentially more respect for the guy that says, "Man I just suck at pistol shooting. I am jerking the trigger or something." Than the asshat that claims its the pistol. Usually, the honest types are the ones that actually improve their shooting--because they dont hide behind their guns "shitty trigger pull."
It's not the wand, its the magician.
I'm guilty of this one.
Only did it once, and not all that long ago. I had just switched from a 1911 to a G19, so first things first, I swapped out the sights. I did the sight install myself, and went to the range. I was still adapting to a real trigger pull, after being spoiled by the 1911 for far too long, and all of my rounds were heading left. I assumed it was me, but I just didn't know. Having a more experienced shooter fire it was really just part of my troubleshooting process and it let me concentrate on what I needed to do (work trigger control).
This makes sense. But, it sounds like you are coming from the right mindset: "is it me?" and not "its this crappy gun..it can't be me!". Plus, in your case, you made modifications to a new weapon so it's logical to eliminate variables.
Sorry about the mistake. I've seen to often when someone is teaching others and they think it's about embarrassing a student. For example - when guys give a 90lbs girl to shoot .44 Magnum or Shotgun loaded with slugs and then they laugh their ass off as the poor girls is thrown back or injured.
And yes - you're right. This way you do get a chance to shoot all kinds of guns and see all the pros and cons and how they fit or not to you.
You may have mistaken my post. It was meant to be funny and the fact that it you get to shoot a lot of guns that you most likely would either never own or shoot. We ALWAYS answer students questions and do our best to fix their issues. In fact, we care so much about this that we offer FREE pistol and carbine classes.
Shooting guns you are not familiar with stretches you as a shooter. Meaning that if you are a 1911 shooter with a 4LBS triggger and now have to shoot a DA revolver with a 12LBS trigger, you will have to work at it. This is a great way to make sure that your ability to manipulate the trigger straight to the rear is there.
IMHO, once a student gets a mental block that there is something mechanically wrong with their pistol, they will shut down and not learn any more. If you can show them the kind of accuracy that their gun is capable of, their confidence will go through the roof.
Personally, I never shoot a student’s gun UNLESS they ask. Prior to that, we are working on all the fundamentals to get them going in the right direct.
All good instructors shoot drills in front of their students. Many people are visual leaners so it is a very important for them to see how it is down. So if you are at a SHOOTING class and the instructor does not shoot any of the drills, run away.
C4
Sorry about the mistake. I've seen to often when someone is teaching others and they think it's about embarrassing a student. For example - when guys give a 90lbs girl to shoot .44 Magnum or Shotgun loaded with slugs and then they laugh their ass off as the poor girls is thrown back or injured.
And yes - you're right. This way you do get a chance to shoot all kinds of guns and see all the pros and cons and how they fit or not to you.
No worries.
C4
QuietShootr
08-15-11, 11:30
So one of the things I have learned about teaching new gun owners how to shoot is that at some point they will question whether it is the gun or them. "I mean, can I really aim here and then have rounds impact a full foot low and to the left?? "Something HAS to be wrong with my sights right??" Uhm, no, you are jerking the HOLY HELL out of the trigger and are just barely missing your own foot. "Prove it!"
Oh the joy of this! Ever wanted to shoot a SIG, HK, M&P, Glock, 1911, XD, hi-point, Jensen, Ruger P85, Taurus Judge, revolver, LCP, etc, etc, etc??? Well now is your chance! Just as an FYI, you ALSO have to shoot the gun well because if you do not, the student will get it in their head that the gun is inaccurate and not their fault (which is almost never the case).
For me, I enjoy the challenge of this for two reasons. The first reasons is that it allows me prove the theory that it is always the singer and never the song. So if I want to prove that I am as good a shooter as I THINK I am, I have to perform on cue.
The second reason is that it gives me a chance to see just how F*CKED UP some of these guns really are. Horrible sights, 12lbs triggers, mile long trigger pulls, etc, etc.
So if you want to see just how good you are, start teaching new shooters and pretty soon you will be out of your comfort zone and exploring new things! :D
C4
I have done that a LOT back when I used to go to a public range occasionally. Some yahoo would be next to me throwing lead all over the place, see the groups I was shooting, then tell me there must be something wrong with his gun. I'd offer to shoot it, hammer a magazine into a big ragged hole, and Dude would either a) get huffy and leave, b) ask for shooting lessons or c) wander back to his lane and keep shooting shotgun patterns, looking really puzzled.
I have done that a LOT back when I used to go to a public range occasionally. Some yahoo would be next to me throwing lead all over the place, see the groups I was shooting, then tell me there must be something wrong with his gun. I'd offer to shoot it, hammer a magazine into a big ragged hole, and Dude would either a) get huffy and leave, b) ask for shooting lessons or c) wander back to his lane and keep shooting shotgun patterns, looking really puzzled.
Right. There are two golden rules when helping people.
Rule 1: You cannot fix stupid (so don't waste your time).
Rule 2: You can ONLY help someone AS MUCH as they want helped.
Funny story. My cousin came over on Sunday (was visiting from VA) and wanted to shoot his Glock. So we headed down to our range. Right before he shot, most everything he was doing was wrong (grip, stance, etc). So I asked him if he would like any input from me on shooting (as he knows my training background). He said yes, AFTER the first mag. So he shot. Didn't hit the 3" circle we were shooting at.
On the second mag, he asked for assistance and managed to hit the circle.
C4
Hootiehoo hosted a M4C together / class this past weekend for SC members.
The first drill we did was for trigger discipline and it left no doubt who the trigger jerkers were. Pretty neat drill but can't remember the name of it.
Each guy had a partner. Each guy had a carbine and one loaded mag.
One guy would face the berm with the carbine while his partner faced the other direction.
The partner with the carbine would either fully insert the mag and close the bolt, loading a round or, close the bolt on a mag that was not fully seated and end up with an empty chamber, then fully insert the mag.
When ready, the guy loading hands off the carbine to his partner, who has no idea if the gun will actually go off when he pulls the trigger.
This was timed at three seconds I believe.
It was alot of fun and I did see improvement in some because of it.
Hootiehoo hosted a M4C together / class this past weekend for SC members.
The first drill we did was for trigger discipline and it left no doubt who the trigger jerkers were. Pretty neat drill but can't remember the name of it.
Each guy had a partner. Each guy had a carbine and one loaded mag.
One guy would face the berm with the carbine while his partner faced the other direction.
The partner with the carbine would either fully insert the mag and close the bolt, loading a round or, close the bolt on a mag that was not fully seated and end up with an empty chamber, then fully insert the mag.
When ready, the guy loading hands off the carbine to his partner, who has no idea if the gun will actually go off when he pulls the trigger.
This was timed at three seconds I believe.
It was alot of fun and I did see improvement in some because of it.
That is ball and dummy. Works pretty well with an AR, but works FANTASTIC with a pistol. There are also FOUR parts to this drill (FYI).
You can do ball and dummy drills on your own. Get dummy rounds and load them in your mag (50/50 split). When you get a flinch on a dummy round, remove the mag, clear weapon do five good dry fires (as if there was a coin or spent casing on your front sight).
We must replace the bad trigger pull with a good one so the dry fires are very important.
C4
Yep, that's it. Ball and dummy.
And yes, Chad did require everyone who flinched to do three or four dry fires after.
Yep, that's it. Ball and dummy.
And yes, Chad did require everyone who flinched to do three or four dry fires after.
Great idea, I want to try this now
I find a set of CT lasergrips is an invaluable training aid for trigger issues. It's hard for someone to argue that it's the gun's fault when they SEE the red dot jerk down and left as they yank on the trigger.
Had a friend once that bought a Glock 23 at the same time I bought a Glock 27. We took them to the range at the same time and he couldn't hit anything but the dirt in front of the target. He was convinced it was the gun, but when I watched him shoot, I could see him flinching and pulling his shots badly. He'd only ever shot a .22 rifle prior to this, and the .40 recoil was a bit much for him. I told him about this and offered some corrective advice, but he wouldn't hear it. He KNEW it was the gun.
A few weeks later, we went out to the range again, and I learned that he had gotten a set of adjustable sights installed. He spent the better part of the morning dicking around with the little screwdriver that came with the sights and still couldn't hit anything. He finally got frustrated after seeing me knock down a string of five bowling pins that we had set out at about 50 feet. He'd been trying all day and barely hit any of them.
He slammed the gun down on the bench and cursed it out. I again told him it wasn't the gun and tried again to help guide him in the right direction, but he got all hostile and said, "If you know so much, try shooting those with this piece of $&!+!" and shoved his 23 towards me. I picked up and loaded the gun, grabbed the little screwdriver, centered his rear sight and knocked down five pins with five shots. He got pissed, packed up his stuff and left. I think the worst part for him was that we were there with our girlfriends, and his started laughing at him after I proved him wrong. It wasn't my intention, but that's how it turned out.
He actually sold the 23 after that and bought something else.
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