View Full Version : educate me on compact or subcompact DA/SA guns
GrandPooba
08-14-11, 19:58
I am looking for a compact or subcompact 9mm carry weapon and would like to keep the DA/SA trigger. I shoot it much better and my competition/training/home defense guns are all 9mm DA/SA.
S&W 3913 - heard this is a really good gun, but the fact that it's discontinued makes me nervous about spare parts and magazine availability.
Beretta PX4 subcompact - ??
what else is out there?
Sig P239
Hk P2000sk
Beretta 92 compact
Smith used to offer other models of compacts but not sure what is in production at this time. There may be others as well but these are the first that came to mind.
I shoot it much better and my competition/training/home defense guns are all 9mm DA/SA.
And what guns are those?
A lot of people like having a different gun for every day of the week, but it makes most sense for your carry gun to be as similar as possible to the gun(s) you use most often outside of carry.
And what guns are those?
A lot of people like having a different gun for every day of the week, but it makes most sense for your carry gun to be as similar as possible to the gun(s) you use most often outside of carry.
+1
You'll be a much better shooter/gun fighter if you stick with one platform and NOT have several different models. "Fear the man who decides to only have one gun......he'll know how to use it."
I feel that the best DA/SA guns out there right now are the H&K series. Full sized models would be the P30/P30L or HK 45, compact models would be the P2000 and HK45c, and subcompact would be the P2000SK. Variant #3 is DA/SA with decocker which is usually the standard trigger configuration.
GrandPooba
08-15-11, 09:15
And what guns are those?
A lot of people like having a different gun for every day of the week, but it makes most sense for your carry gun to be as similar as possible to the gun(s) you use most often outside of carry.
yes, hence the fact that I specified that they all be DA/SA instead of a mix of striker fired, single action, and DA/SA stuff.
All my shooting right now is done on the Beretta 92FS.
...... would like to keep the DA/SA trigger. I shoot it much better........
While I own and carry a 3913, and it is an excellent carry choice, my experience with DA/SA is you will not be as accurate as you like with that first shot compared to an action like a Glock unless you are very close. Empirical data observed in a pistol class tells me the same thing. Lot's of first shot misses from the DA/SA shooters. Training will definitely help.
The 3913 is a very good choice and I would not hesitate to buy one for carry if you are a DA/SA guy. The mags are limited to 7 rounds, but that is why I like it. The single stack allows for a very slim grip.
CDNN has used S&W 6906's for cheap right now, and some retailers like Academy and Cabelas have Beretta 92 compacts, the first to be imported in about ten years. If you shoot mostly Beretta, it's worth giving them a look.
GrandPooba
08-15-11, 09:32
are all these S&W third gen semiautos like the 3913 and 6906 discontinued? The 92 compact would be great though though it apparently is quite difficult to find
are all these S&W third gen semiautos like the 3913 and 6906 discontinued? The 92 compact would be great though though it apparently is quite difficult to find
The Smith's are discontiued, but some may still be made for large LEO contracts like NYPD (but theirs are DAO).
The 92C is $568 at Bud's...http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/75958
are all these S&W third gen semiautos like the 3913 and 6906 discontinued? The 92 compact would be great though though it apparently is quite difficult to find
Berettas are not what they used to be. Just like with Sig Sauer, the company cannot keep a high enough profit margin by producing expensive alloy frames while having a DA/SA mechanism and still compete in the polymer framed market. Sig and Beretta have outsourced many small parts, and they have started using cheaper quality aluminum alloy for frames in order to keep the prices down. The concequence is guns that have a shorter lifespan, and are more likely to break parts. M9 contracts are still using the high quality specifications, but those are not available to the public......just as contract M11s are not available to the public. The days of high quality alloy framed pistols that are priced under $1500 are over. Times change, and the competition has found a much more cost effective method of producing firearms that are equal or better to alloy framed pistols. Alloy framed guns cannot compete at the same price level and still be of high quality.
The PX4 is a "so-so" gun. New Orleans PD has had a number of issues with them as far as long term reliability goes. By no means is the PX4 in the same realm as the Glock, M&P, or H&K series. I'll say it again......H&K at present offers the best overall DA/SA pistol platform in all calibers, variants, and sizes. They have also never experienced a "slump" in quality as S&W, Beretta, Sig Sauer, and Glock have. Decade after decade, H&K firearms are top of the line.
This coming from a guy who has used nothing but Sigs for the last 12 years. If Beretta, or some other alloy/steel framed pistol is what you have your heart set on, most of those designs were at their peak in the early to mid 1990s. Try to find something in that time frame. My best Sigs range from 1988-1995, and the quality degraded after that as the market forces changed.
+1 HK/Sig
I think slide safeties are a complete PITA.
The "best" current DA/SA are HK's, as noted.
When I graduated from the Police Academy, I used a 92F on duty and a 3913 off-duty; likewise when we transitioned to the 4566, I continued to use the 3913--it is a great little pistol for CCW.
Beat Trash
08-15-11, 12:31
The 3913 is a great little gun. I still have mine, it lives in the utility drawer in my kitchen (next to the cork screw).
If starting anew, I'd want to go with a gun that is still in production. Otherwise parts and magazines could be an issue.
Currently, I'd look hard at the HK P2000K if I wanted to stay with DA/SA. They're a little more expensive but the quality is worth it in my opinion.
The P30 is about the size of a Glock 19..... Its the "fullsize" but its built compact.
While I own and carry a 3913, and it is an excellent carry choice, my experience with DA/SA is you will not be as accurate as you like with that first shot compared to an action like a Glock unless you are very close. Empirical data observed in a pistol class tells me the same thing. Lot's of first shot misses from the DA/SA shooters. Training will definitely help.
The 3913 is a very good choice and I would not hesitate to buy one for carry if you are a DA/SA guy. The mags are limited to 7 rounds, but that is why I like it. The single stack allows for a very slim grip.
I agree to a point, however someone who trains exclusively with a DA loses no accuracy when using the DA function. I know I used to be just as accurate and usually more accurate in DA than SA. The way the OP is describing himself I would guess he knows this as well. But again you are right, for the masses a Glock or M&P type trigger is easier to acheive accuracy with. The last few years I've not had the finances to maintain my DA/SA accuracy and have gone to Glocks and M&P's and have found it easier to maintain an accecptable level of accuracy with a much reduced training schedule.
You are also on the money with the 3913, I've had a couple of them and they were very good CCW pistols.
titsonritz
08-15-11, 14:16
I always liked the 3913LS and 3913NL, great ccw pistols.
An Undocumented Worker
08-15-11, 20:31
There's also the CZ PCR, P06, and the Rami
I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 trouble free rounds through my PCR, and it conceals well.
The PCR is also known as the 75D compact, it's alloy framed with a decocker, snag free sights, and a loaded chamber indicator.
the P06 is essentially a PCR missing the loaded chamber indicator but with a railed dust cover.
the Rami is their subcompact line.
There's also the CZ PCR, P06, and the Rami
I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 trouble free rounds through my PCR, and it conceals well.
The PCR is also known as the 75D compact, it's alloy framed with a decocker, snag free sights, and a loaded chamber indicator.
the P06 is essentially a PCR missing the loaded chamber indicator but with a railed dust cover.
the Rami is their subcompact line.
I went through a CZ phase in the early 2000s. The good is that they have very good ergonomics and are accurate. The bad is that they tend to break parts on a regular basis, and require servicing often to retain their reliability outside of a static range. When their high end competition pistol models come from the factory with six(yes 6), extra slide stop levers and 3 extra trigger bar springs you know there is at least a couple of major problems with the design.
For most shooters that will likely never go beyond 5000rds on a pistol, the CZ will likely do just fine. For those shooters who expect more......well it's a risk. Having a slide stop, trigger spring, or extractor spring crap out on you in a fire fight can get you killed. A 3rd generation Glock, M&P, or HK P30 will exceed 50,000 rounds on average before things run the risk of breaking.
The 3913 is a good gun, but I have never liked slide mounted controls. The price on it may make you overlook imperfections like that.
Aside from that, I'm very fond of my P2000SK in .40S&W. The recoil on it is very mild for a .40, so the 9mm should be very nice.
The 3913 is a good gun, but I have never liked slide mounted controls. The price on it may make you overlook imperfections like that.
Aside from that, I'm very fond of my P2000SK in .40S&W. The recoil on it is very mild for a .40, so the 9mm should be very nice.
I too think the slide-mounted safety/decocker is a weak point in the Beretta/S&W 3rd-gen designs, which is why my carry Beretta is a 92G. The decocker's spring-loaded and thus it's always set to 'fire'. On the rare occasions I carry my 92F, I carry it uncocked and unlocked just like the 92G.
An Undocumented Worker
08-18-11, 17:05
I went through a CZ phase in the early 2000s. The good is that they have very good ergonomics and are accurate. The bad is that they tend to break parts on a regular basis, and require servicing often to retain their reliability outside of a static range. When their high end competition pistol models come from the factory with six(yes 6), extra slide stop levers and 3 extra trigger bar springs you know there is at least a couple of major problems with the design.
For most shooters that will likely never go beyond 5000rds on a pistol, the CZ will likely do just fine. For those shooters who expect more......well it's a risk. Having a slide stop, trigger spring, or extractor spring crap out on you in a fire fight can get you killed. A 3rd generation Glock, M&P, or HK P30 will exceed 50,000 rounds on average before things run the risk of breaking.
I appreciate the concern and am not looking to start an argument. However the info you have posted is pretty much the same rumor that has been regurgitated all across the web.
I have dug very deep looking for first hand accounts in regards to the concerns you posted, and the only thing I found was one individual who had a CZ that broke multiple slide stops due to the hole being drilled not quite perpendicular to the frame. This pistol was replaced for the guy buy CZ-USA at no cost to him. At 3,000 rounds on my PCR the slide stop shows no signs of abnormal wear or any cracks, I also have a 75B stainless with 2500 rounds through it and the story is the same there.
The PCR has a CZ Custom trigger return spring that was designed to alleviate the chance of it breaking, I replaced it while doing a trigger job on that pistol. the 75B has the factory TRS in there and countless dry fires through it, so far, so good.
With any brass cased ammo the factory extractor spring has been adequate in both guns. However aluminum cased ammo doesn't run well with the factory extractor spring, A Wolff extra power extractor spring was installed in the 75B and that made extraction of any case a non issue. Being that the blazer aluminum is hard to come by, I'm leaving the factory extractor spring in the PCR.
Steel cased ammo has not been an issue.
The only worn part I've experienced is the Recoil springs in both pistols started getting weak at around 2,200 rounds. The PCR uses a flat wound spring and was replaced with another factory unit. I experimented with Wolff Recoil springs in the 75B of varying weights but they didn't run very well in it, the recoil spring in the 75B was replaced with a factory weight spring from CZ-USA in 2010 and I noticed that it was manufactured differently than the spring that came in the pistol. It has held it's tension much better with less set than the stock spring, so it appears that CZ is working to address known issues.
In summary I have not been able to verify, (either personally or from first hand accounts) the same tired rumors that are spread about CZ's across the internet. Except for the factory recoil springs.
My personal pistols have run well whether filthy or clean.
I appreciate the concern and am not looking to start an argument. However the info you have posted is pretty much the same rumor that has been regurgitated all across the web.
Maybe CZ sold in USA are somehow better than those sold in Europe, but even fact that CZ throws 2 or 3 spare take down pins to each pistols (because they break so often) says something. Lot of people in my area use CZ: 75, 85, SP-01, TS (aka IPSC), Champion. I see number of problems with them. Mostly broken take down pins, flying out firing pins and broken trigger return springs. Also good idea is to stay out of factory adjustable sights. OF course I will not mention stoppages, usually in form of stovepipe or failure to return to battery. Of course I've seen pistols behaving lot worse than any CZ (mostly different flavour of 1911 design, some very stubborn SIGs, etc.) and can not say that CZ is generally POS, but for me CZ problems are not internet rumours. I just witness it on the range, also in pistols used by CZ factory shooting team, that use custom shop guns. Maybe because those CZ pistols that I see are actually used and 2500 or 3000 shots is not total round count, but comes like in half a year of use for average (factory team shooters can go trough 2 or 3 pistols in a year). As mentioned before, modern pistol is expected of 50.000 trouble free use, not 2000 or 5000 like 100 years ago.
BTW When I wanted to buy CZ for competition use I got advised not to do so by experienced shooters from... Czech Republic.
An Undocumented Worker
08-18-11, 17:39
Maybe CZ sold in USA are somehow better than those sold in Europe, but even fact that CZ throws 2 or 3 spare take down pins to each pistols (because they break so often) says something. Lot of people in my area use CZ: 75, 85, SP-01, TS (aka IPSC), Champion. I see number of problems with them. Mostly broken take down pins, flying out firing pins and broken trigger return springs. Also good idea is to stay out of factory adjustable sights. OF course I will not mention stoppages, usually in form of stovepipe or failure to return to battery. Of course I've seen pistols behaving lot worse than any CZ (mostly different flavour of 1911 design, some very stubborn SIGs, etc.) and can not say that CZ is generally POS, but for me CZ problems are not internet rumours. I just witness it on the range, also in pistols used by CZ factory shooting team, that use custom shop guns. Maybe because those CZ pistols that I see are actually used and 2500 or 3000 shots is not total round count, but comes like in half a year of use for average (factory team shooters can go trough 2 or 3 pistols in a year). As mentioned before, modern pistol is expected of 50.000 trouble free use, not 2000 or 5000 like 100 years ago.
BTW When I wanted to buy CZ for competition use I got advised not to do so by experienced shooters from... Czech Republic.
If you could provide more specific information I would certainly appreciate it, Such as which models were supplied with multiple slide stops, what model years they were etc, would help to figure out just what changes have been made over the years. Here in the states every CZ I've seen has been supplied with one slide stop/takedown pin.
Roundcounts when breakages were seen would also be helpful.
If I could find 2 cases of ammo at under $190.00 usd per a case I'd be willing to run the 2,000 round challenge with one of mine, just to see what happens
GrandPooba
08-18-11, 17:39
thanks everybody for the advice.
Have to rule out H&Ks as they are pretty much impossible to find in MA. Still on the hunt for a normal 3913 in a private party sale. Don't think I will be able to order online as 3913's aren't legal for dealer sales in MA and I don't think I'll find a dealer willing to transfer it. I did find a 3913 Lady Smith for private party sale, but doesn't seem like Crossbreed makes a holster for them.
Such as which models were supplied with multiple slide stops, what model years they were etc, would help to figure out just what changes have been made over the years. Here in the states every CZ I've seen has been supplied with one slide stop/takedown pin.
Roundcounts when breakages were seen would also be helpful.
Models that I've seen supplied with multiple slide stops are from 75 series including SP-01 Shadow, Tactical Sport (aka IPSC) and CzechMate model. Usually it is one spare, 2 for TS model in .40SW and saw 3 in ChechMate (but this came with spare barrel as well).
I do not know exact round counts, as those were not my pistols, but as far as I can remember from talking to owner it can be from 1500 to 5000 rounds. This, of course, happens more often on .40SW guns. Actually lot of shooters replace slide stops (giving up slide stop feature) with titanium pins, that roll inside receiver (kind like M4 trigger pins) and are held in place by pieces of duct or electrical tape on sides of frame. This cure take down pin breaks, or so I've been told.
Most of this observations are from big IPSC matches (usually round count of 200 to 500 rounds per match). Usually shooters attend 5 to 15 that big matches per year plus several smaller ones. Add training and this is serious round count. CZ factory team shoots big match somewhere in Europe (or beyond) basically every weekend, so they can worn out several pistols a year. Glocks, HKs or STI/SVI usually see higher round counts before they are replaced. I also witness lot of reliability problems with pistols that are actually nothing more than CZ 75 clones (Tanfoglio from Italy sold in US as EEA Witness if I'm correct and Sphinx from Swiss), but not breaking take down pins.
However CZ have significant advantages that made them popular - good ergonomy, great trigger, flat shooting due to low slide mass, lot of factory "competition" parts that are legal in IPSC Production (it is far more restricted that USPSA Production) and as one most important thing - big magazine capacity of SP-01 Shadow (effectively even 18+1 or 19+1) for Production division. Since this went out after 15 rounds loaded rule, I know shooters that gave up on CZ and went to HK P30LS instead or came back to Glock 17.
Actually I like shooting CZ, those are great shooting pistols, but I would never trust it enough to use it as my carry pistol.
2000-3000 rounds do not really speak to whether a pistol is robust or not.
The average class will account for half of that in two days. Almost any modern pistol should hit that round count reliably over time. If you run 2-3k though it ins few days and have 20+k rounds through it reliably then that's a decent benchmark for a none range platform.
+1
You'll be a much better shooter/gun fighter if you stick with one platform and NOT have several different models. "Fear the man who decides to only have one gun......he'll know how to use it."
I feel that the best DA/SA guns out there right now are the H&K series. Full sized models would be the P30/P30L or HK 45, compact models would be the P2000 and HK45c, and subcompact would be the P2000SK. Variant #3 is DA/SA with decocker which is usually the standard trigger configuration.
I love that quote about the man with one gun. OP, I agree, stick with one, two platforms at the very most and shoot the hell out of those guns and you will improve.
montrala,
This discription of the CZ 75 series is very helpful for me since I have been considering buying a SP-01 pistol for recreational range use. The big SP-01 weighs about as much as a steel framed 1911 government model, but it shoots the mild-recoiling 9mm. CZ's are known to have good barrels and the price is reasonable so I thought it would be a good hobby pistol.
I will not use the CZ as an everyday carry pistol, I have an HK for that use.
Thank you. :thank_you2:
Models that I've seen supplied with multiple slide stops are from 75 series including SP-01 Shadow, Tactical Sport (aka IPSC) and CzechMate model. Usually it is one spare, 2 for TS model in .40SW and saw 3 in ChechMate (but this came with spare barrel as well).
I do not know exact round counts, as those were not my pistols, but as far as I can remember from talking to owner it can be from 1500 to 5000 rounds. This, of course, happens more often on .40SW guns. Actually lot of shooters replace slide stops (giving up slide stop feature) with titanium pins, that roll inside receiver (kind like M4 trigger pins) and are held in place by pieces of duct or electrical tape on sides of frame. This cure take down pin breaks, or so I've been told.
Most of this observations are from big IPSC matches (usually round count of 200 to 500 rounds per match). Usually shooters attend 5 to 15 that big matches per year plus several smaller ones. Add training and this is serious round count. CZ factory team shoots big match somewhere in Europe (or beyond) basically every weekend, so they can worn out several pistols a year. Glocks, HKs or STI/SVI usually see higher round counts before they are replaced. I also witness lot of reliability problems with pistols that are actually nothing more than CZ 75 clones (Tanfoglio from Italy sold in US as EEA Witness if I'm correct and Sphinx from Swiss), but not breaking take down pins.
However CZ have significant advantages that made them popular - good ergonomy, great trigger, flat shooting due to low slide mass, lot of factory "competition" parts that are legal in IPSC Production (it is far more restricted that USPSA Production) and as one most important thing - big magazine capacity of SP-01 Shadow (effectively even 18+1 or 19+1) for Production division. Since this went out after 15 rounds loaded rule, I know shooters that gave up on CZ and went to HK P30LS instead or came back to Glock 17.
Actually I like shooting CZ, those are great shooting pistols, but I would never trust it enough to use it as my carry pistol.
ThirdWatcher
08-21-11, 15:55
Walther PPS (with S&W 3913 a close second).
legumeofterror
08-21-11, 17:14
I went through a CZ phase in the early 2000s. The good is that they have very good ergonomics and are accurate. The bad is that they tend to break parts on a regular basis, and require servicing often to retain their reliability outside of a static range. When their high end competition pistol models come from the factory with six(yes 6), extra slide stop levers and 3 extra trigger bar springs you know there is at least a couple of major problems with the design.
For most shooters that will likely never go beyond 5000rds on a pistol, the CZ will likely do just fine. For those shooters who expect more......well it's a risk. Having a slide stop, trigger spring, or extractor spring crap out on you in a fire fight can get you killed. A 3rd generation Glock, M&P, or HK P30 will exceed 50,000 rounds on average before things run the risk of breaking.
If one understands the limitations of thier handgun, and keeps up with whatever preventative maintenance it may require, then what is the problem? I do not require my handgun to survive 5,000 plus rounds without any sort of maintenance. That is a situation I do not expect to experience, and see it as a rather unreasonable requirement. Spending ~$40 a year for a new slide stop and trigger bar spring is not something I would consider a huge problem Personally, I have not experienced any malfunctions in my 3500 rounds and will be replacing those particular parts soon. Granted some handguns don't require this kind of maintenance and could be considered "better" for it, but it doesn't much effect me and I find a bit of extra time and money to ensure reliability is more than worth using my preferred handgun. I see myself at no disadvantage than if I were to use a handgun that is considered more durable, because I know the limitations of the design and address them appropriately.
As far as thier competition models coming with extra slide stops, I would imagine it is simply thier understanding that it is a wear part, and that those handguns will see much more shooting than would be expected of thier other models, considering the kind of shooter it is being marketed to.
Berettas are not what they used to be. Just like with Sig Sauer, the company cannot keep a high enough profit margin by producing expensive alloy frames while having a DA/SA mechanism and still compete in the polymer framed market. Sig and Beretta have outsourced many small parts, and they have started using cheaper quality aluminum alloy for frames in order to keep the prices down. The concequence is guns that have a shorter lifespan, and are more likely to break parts. M9 contracts are still using the high quality specifications, but those are not available to the public......just as contract M11s are not available to the public. The days of high quality alloy framed pistols that are priced under $1500 are over. Times change, and the competition has found a much more cost effective method of producing firearms that are equal or better to alloy framed pistols. Alloy framed guns cannot compete at the same price level and still be of high quality.
You got some hard evidence on that claim or is it just a rumor you read on the interwebz?
You can buy M9s all day long that do not differ from the American 92FS except for rollmarks & the rear sight. In fact, current American 92FS models are using M9 frames instead of the slanted frames on the Italians. There is no difference in a .mil M9 and a commercial M9 except the serial number.
I've bought 4 NIB and 2 LNIB 92 variants this year that have not differed than any of my older 92Gs & FS models I've previously owned. In fact, they are actually better since Beretta has been updating the 92 with better locking blocks, and trigger return springs.
Beretta has cheapened the 92 line with a plastic magazine release, decock levers, guide rod, and plastic coated metal trigger. Otherwise, they have not changed. Plus Beretta has invested in the 90-two & 92A1/96A1 series which have addressed the issues with the 92.
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