View Full Version : Should I use the slide release or overhand to release the slide?
So I saw this post in another thread:
SLIDE GRAB!!!!!!!!!! It's called consistency and tied into other manipulations like malfunctions, loading, reloading etc...
Once again there's a square range way to do something and a battle way of doing things.
Wanted to respond, but the thread was locked. So here is a new discussion on the topic as there appears to be some bad info out there.
Will attempt to have a mature discussion on this subject.
Q: Using the "overhand" technique, I am doing the same motions as I would to clear a malfunction. So I am creating good muscle memory.
A: True. With that said, do you have that many malfunctions in your gun that you need to create that much muscle memory?? If so, sell the pistol.
Q: In a "gunfight/combat" I will lose my fine motor skills and will not be able to hit the slide release.
A: False. If so, how did you find the mag release button or manipulate the trigger cleanly to the rear? Both of which are FINE motor skills.
Q: Overhand release of the slide is faster.
A: False. When you insert the magazine, your support hand thumb is literally touching the slide release! Your hand is also already making contact with the frame and doesn’t have far to go in order to get into your proper grip.
Q: Overhand release gives the slide more power to strip a round off the mag.
A: Technically yes as you are pulling the slide back farther. The problem happens when people ride the slide forward (instead of letting it go at the farthest reward position). This causes a malfunction (stupid user trick) and is the MOST common cause of the pistol not running.
Q: Overhand release works on all pistols so it is "universal."
A: False. On some guns, it will decock the weapon and or put it on safe.
Q: All instructors (with combat experience) teach overhand slide release.
A: False. The majority of the TOP firearms instructors do not teach this.
With the above said, I could care less if you use an overhand method to release the slide. Do it consistently and be proficient at it. Just don't attempt to tell shooters that use the slide release that they are wrong. ;)
C4
thopkins22
08-15-11, 09:07
Do it consistently and be proficient at it. Just don't attempt to tell shooters that use the slide release that they are wrong. ;)
C4
Not talking to you Grant, as you made it clear that you are not doing this, but I think the slide release folks do just as much "telling people they are wrong." ;)
I think Grant makes a good analysis of the debate and frankly I am not in disagreement... The problem I have is that all of my pistol training in the early to mid eighties was the "overhand" technique and I've done it that way SO MANY TIMES that I don't think I can (or should?) change...:confused:
Failure2Stop
08-15-11, 09:55
I think Grant makes a good analysis of the debate and frankly I am not in disagreement... The problem I have is that all of my pistol training in the early to mid eighties was the "overhand" technique and I've done it that way SO MANY TIMES that I don't think I can (or should?) change...:confused:
Old dog, new trick?
I would hope that you are smarter than your dog.
Not talking to you Grant, as you made it clear that you are not doing this, but I think the slide release folks do just as much "telling people they are wrong." ;)
I actualy DO think they are wrong, but am open minded enough to understand that one size does NOT fit all.
I would encourage overhand slide release fans to spend some training time with Mr. Vickers. :)
C4
I think Grant makes a good analysis of the debate and frankly I am not in disagreement... The problem I have is that all of my pistol training in the early to mid eighties was the "overhand" technique and I've done it that way SO MANY TIMES that I don't think I can (or should?) change...:confused:
Understand. Like with anything (from guns to gear), things change and it is good to keep up with what is going on.
C4
The problem I have is that all of my pistol training in the early to mid eighties was the "overhand" technique and I've done it that way SO MANY TIMES that I don't think I can (or should?) change...
Over twenty years later its ok to use the slide stop. ;)
I was trained to use the turn the gun like a gang banger and sling shot the slide technique. I transitioned to the slide stop on my own, mostly through competitive shooting.
I'm also of the view that the slingshot is a very easy method to teach when engaged in assembly line firearms instruction. Some shooters won't have the strength in their support hand thumb to do it. Some shooters are basically retarted and shouldn't be using guns at all, and will put the least amount of effort into getting better.
To me, the advantages are it keep the gun much closer to your center, its a shorter more effecient motion after the mag is inserted, and it sets up my support hand to very consistently re-acquire my two hand grip.
Old dog, new trick?
I would hope that you are smarter than your dog.
LOL- no dogs in our household, but I do have the sense to realize that the "overhand" method works exceptionally well for me and that making a change to the "slide-stop" method might be a tough endeavor... And, BTW F2S, my avitar is not a self portrait- Google "King Crimson." Remember, we must all be open minded...;)
[QUOTE=C4IGrant;1076068]Understand. Like with anything (from guns to gear), things change and it is good to keep up with what is going on.
Agreed and most of my formal training took place during the early to mid-ninetys to include the likes of IALEFI, Cirillo, Rogers, Ayoob and Hackathorn. Last year during a two day Hack school, the "overhand" method continued to work for me...
But being open minded about these things, during my next training cycle as well as scheduled professional training on the horizon, I will try the "slide-stop" method and see how it goes.
With the above said, I could care less if you use an overhand method to release the slide.
C4
http://incompetech.com/Images/caring.png
:D
Failure2Stop
08-15-11, 12:35
LOL- no dogs in our household, but I do have the sense to realize that the "overhand" method works exceptionally well for me and that making a change to the "slide-stop" method might be a tough endeavor... And, BTW F2S, my avitar is not a self portrait- Google "King Crimson." Remember, we must all be open minded...;)
I edited my original post as it was made hastily and the glare on my "smart phone" made your avatar look like a bulldog, which was nicely ironic. When I realized that it was not (interesting reference though), I altered it. However, I guess that shot was already downrange, never to be recalled.
FWIW- I was (as were many of us at the time-frame) thoroughly entrenched in the "overhand grab and yank" camp. I did some back and forth changes for a while, unable to fully decide which way I wanted to devote my training. My decision was based on two experiences:
1- my FAST time dropped by 1/2 second, immediately.
2- during force on force work I was faster, which resulted in way more paint on the other guys.
I strive to be open minded, but I have seen lots of this stuff, and some things get dragged down first by dogma and then again by a mistaken understanding of human learning. I simply want to encourage people to get out of their comfort zone and find out how much they can do.
NCPatrolAR
08-15-11, 13:43
Most people are surprised to see the difference in their times between the various methods of returning the slide forward. Without fail; I have numerous people in my classes switch from the overhand method to the slide stop once they see their times and the whole "gross motor skill" issue is debunked
Grant, I agree with all of your points, but different strokes for different folks. But for me personally, my slide stop is difficult to manipulate so racking the slide works better/faster for me.
NCPatrolAR
08-15-11, 13:58
works better/faster for me.
I teach 3 methods in my courses and then let the students choose for themselves. Each student has to try each method though. As long as I have exposed them to the material and they have tried it; I don't care if they stick with the overhand method. It's certainly a viable method
Grant, I agree with all of your points, but different strokes for different folks. But for me personally, my slide stop is difficult to manipulate so racking the slide works better/faster for me.
Understand. What kind of gun are you running?
C4
I teach 3 methods in my courses and then let the students choose for themselves. Each student has to try each method though. As long as I have exposed them to the material and they have tried it; I don't care if they stick with the overhand method. It's certainly a viable method
Ya I am the same way. I explain the positives and negatives, ask them to try it and then let go from there.
C4
What is funny is that some instructors who eschew using the slide release because it is a "fine motor skill' will then go and advocate even finer motor skills like easing to the trigger to the reset point after each shot, or taking the slack out of the trigger, or starting on the trigger pull as you extend the gun out.
To those people I say, c'mon, guys, you can't have it both ways--you can't say that one technique is too fine motor and then teach things that are even more fine motor.
I have seen people who were sold the slingshotting or overhand slide release method act like they had some tactical truth revealled to them.
I remember posting on another board that I had a Kimber Warrior that sometimes failed to feed when I put a mag in and hit the slide release (among other problems with that turd of a gun). I had the local board expert try to explain to me that I was doing it wrong by hitting the slide release, to which I pointed out that I had taken classes from veterans of the top gunfighting unit in the US army who all taught using the slide release.
BTW, I love this chart for people who say that they could care less.
http://incompetech.com/Images/caring.png
:D
Failure2Stop
08-15-11, 17:17
I feel like I should note that my urging toward a slide-release reload is based on the user being able to reach and operate the slide-release.
There are some that simply cannot drop a standard Glock slide with the thumb. Doesn't make much sense to insist on utilization of that feature if it isn't going to work.
However, I also tend to make my weapons work for me, be it slightly enlarged control or making a platform change to something that fits the shooter.
I've been taught both ways. I've had respected trainers tell me that overhand slide release is more consistent than trying to reach around to the slide release and I've been taught the opposite. I've been told that overhand is better if your hand is slippery and bloody, and I just had Louis Awerbuck tell me that your hand is stickier when bloody.
In the end, I've gone to overhand slide release pointed downrange rather than the "workspace" concept because I do believe in the "gross vs fine motor skill" concept, as well as the fact that overhand at least allows you to keep the gun pointed downrange rather than upstairs at your loved ones hiding under the bed in the upstairs bedroom or a team member clearing the stairs.
In the end, we all have to make the decisions about weapons manipulation that make sense to us and fit our physical capabilities the best.
I was taught the overhand method as well. I am switching to the slide release after my first Vickers class.....those in the LEO business would call this a clue...:D
I am left handed and have used SIGs, 1911s and now Glocks. It's almost hopeless chasing that lever around. For me, on the Glocks at least, I do the tilt inboard and sling shot method. I don't buy the fine motor argument. I just can't reach it easily.
Should I ever transition to something with an ambi slide release like an M&P or P30, I will try to transition to the release.
Michael2007
08-15-11, 17:49
I was taught at my academy the overhand with our issued glocks. However whenever I practice with my own Beretta 92 I normally end up safing the firearm when I perform that action. So my preference is with the slide stop release as it works on both platforms without me worrying about the safety being engaged.
If you are left handed, I would think that overhand racking or slingshotting would be better--since most guns are not equipped with an ambidextrous slide release.
There are some that simply cannot drop a standard Glock slide with the thumb. Doesn't make much sense to insist on utilization of that feature if it isn't going to work.
I dont think that anyone is insisting that people like that be forced to use the slide release.
Failure2Stop
08-15-11, 18:18
It would be really nice if firearms companies would actually listen to the shooters they hire to make their guns look good and make us some good bilateral guns.
If you are left handed, I would think that overhand racking or slingshotting would be better--since most guns are not equipped with an ambidextrous slide release.
I'm a lefty and shoot a G17 w/ a Vickers slide stop. It's actually much faster and more reliable for me to use the slide stop. When I come off target, my trigger finger indexes along the slide and my middle knuckle is in perfect position to depress the release.
I'm also of the view that the slingshot is a very easy method to teach when engaged in assembly line firearms instruction.
This is an important point and I think a leading reason why the slingshot or over-hand techniques are so widely encountered. These techniques make a lot of sense when teaching a large number of inexperienced or transitioning shooters in a limited time window. Glock's training department advocates this technique and even the nomenclature they use for the firearm controls reinforces it ('slide stop' not 'slide release'). Considering the widespread use of Glock pistols, Glock has probably provided this training to countless law enforcement departments and military units, and many of those base their own training curriculum off of Glock's original format.
Larry Vickers points out that among the Glock's many attributes is that it is "Incredibly simple to operate - 2 levers/buttons and 1 is optional. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11788)" I'll take a SWAG that he didn't mean the magazine release was the optional one. With a large group of new shooters, teaching the slingshot/overhand method essentially eliminates the use of one control from the training. No doubt this was considered a plus when transitioning revolver shooters to the more 'complex' semiautomatic.
As pointed out earlier, this technique is also ambidextrous - no wasted time explaining different techniques due to handedness. While it is not a universal technique (for example, it won't work on a 1911 with Shok-Buffs - debate whether or not Shok-Buffs are a good idea elsewhere, but the USMC uses them on their MEUSOC 1911s), but will likely work on the majority of pistols encountered on the street or battlefield should the need arise. There are also some folks who, for whatever reason, simply cannot reach or reliably activate the slide release.
Last, it is very reliable. With new shooters reliability is more important than speed - we're more concerned that they get an empty firearm back into action than whether they can shave a second off of their reload time. Considering the high capacity of firearms like the Glock 17, the small difference in reload time may well be inconsequential for most users.
It is a very uncomplicated to train, reliable technique.
However, many of us have progressed beyond this level of instruction into training that has pushed our skills. We are looking for efficiencies wherever they can be found. Using the slide release during reloads is undeniably a faster, more efficient technique. I've trained with Larry Vickers and he certainly advocates it, and strongly recommends using the support hand thumb to activate the release in order to prevent prematurely sending the slide forward on an empty chamber. I've also trained with other instructors who use their strong thumb to trip the release, and personally have come to favor this method.
None of these techniques is the only way or the right way - they all have their place depending on the individual shooter, their training and their skill level.
There are some that simply cannot drop a standard Glock slide with the thumb. Doesn't make much sense to insist on utilization of that feature if it isn't going to work.
I encouraged my fiance to do the slingshot for exactly this reason, even with the extreme grip reduction.
polymorpheous
08-15-11, 19:58
I take guff from some of the Tactical Response followers at my home range over my extended slide release.
Evidently it is "game gear".
Different strokes, it works for me.
Black Jeep
08-15-11, 21:11
I'm a lefty and shoot a G17 w/ a Vickers slide stop. It's actually much faster and more reliable for me to use the slide stop. When I come off target, my trigger finger indexes along the slide and my middle knuckle is in perfect position to depress the release.
That is the same for me only I use a G23 (not that it changes anything) and I go ahead and put my fingertip on the slide release so I can feel it. I actually prefer it this way and would still buy a "right handed" pistol even if they made ambi slide releases.
I'm a lefty and shoot a G17 w/ a Vickers slide stop. It's actually much faster and more reliable for me to use the slide stop. When I come off target, my trigger finger indexes along the slide and my middle knuckle is in perfect position to depress the release.
If it works better for you, that is the way you should do it.
I have a suspicion that many lefthanded people have worked out their own best ways of adapting to a right-handed world, where many things are not ergonomic for them because they are designed for right handers.
Tiny Killer Robot
08-15-11, 21:48
At the Police Academy we were told it was user's choice.
I use the slide release.
Here is why I dont use the slide stop (I thought it was a slide release?...):
Here it gets cold, when it gets cold I use gloves - gloves make it harder to positively engage the slide stop I would rather be a quarter second slower and 100% sure I was going to get that slide forward and chambered.
"Q: Using the "overhand" technique, I am doing the same motions as I would to clear a malfunction. So I am creating good muscle memory.
A: True. With that said, do you have that many malfunctions in your gun that you need to create that much muscle memory?? If so, sell the pistol."
Re: point 1 of the OP - I train muscle memory response for malfunctions so that if that moment comes in a gun fight that I will know what to do, not because my Glock malfunctions all the time.
Q: In a "gunfight/combat" I will lose my fine motor skills and will not be able to hit the slide release.
A: False. If so, how did you find the mag release button or manipulate the trigger cleanly to the rear? Both of which are FINE motor skills.
Re: point 2 - I would consider mashing down the mag release to be more of a gross movement than a fine one, look at the muscle movements involved in that vs. the movements involved in sweeping the slide release. Also, every gunfight I have been in involved a few things, none of them was my finger deftly manipulating the trigger to crisp clean suprise break. Mostly my trigger finger was jamming the trigger to the rear as fast as I could, as my body seemed to find new and interesting ways to conform to cover that should not have been able to hide a small house cat.
Q: Overhand release of the slide is faster.
A: False. When you insert the magazine, your support hand thumb is literally touching the slide release! Your hand is also already making contact with the frame and doesn’t have far to go in order to get into your proper grip.
Re: point 3 - absolutely the slide stop is faster
Q: Overhand release gives the slide more power to strip a round off the mag.
A: Technically yes as you are pulling the slide back farther. The problem happens when people ride the slide forward (instead of letting it go at the farthest reward position). This causes a malfunction (stupid user trick) and is the MOST common cause of the pistol not running.
Re: point 4 - both methods apply plenty of force to strip a round from the magazine and chamber it, this shouldnt even be a consideration other than people to "granny handle" the slide and induce their own malf.
Q: Overhand release works on all pistols so it is "universal."
A: False. On some guns, it will decock the weapon and or put it on safe.
Re: point 5 - Good point, I remember this happening to me quite a few times with my old issued M9, thank god I dont have to use that thing any more.
Q: All instructors (with combat experience) teach overhand slide release.
A: False. The majority of the TOP firearms instructors do not teach this.
Re: point 6 - I would love to see some documentation showing one way or the other and correlating that with true combat experience, I personally haven't been to any of the top notch schools (soon, oh yes it will happen soon...) so I couldn't tell you who exactly is teaching what. I have been in true close quarters gunfights though, and with some of the best in the biz (although I was to busy at the time to notice how or even if those 626 boys were using their pistols or not).
---------------------------------------------------------Edited to add--------------------------------------------------
First did you notice my sly name dropping there?
Second, I may have exagurated: Some of that cover was big enough for a large house cat.
NCPatrolAR
08-16-11, 06:51
Re: point 2 - I would consider mashing down the mag release to be more of a gross movement than a fine one, look at the muscle movements involved in that vs. the movements involved in sweeping the slide release.
The thumb pushes in towards the frame when releasing the magazine versus pushing down when releasing the slide. Whats the major difference? In my book they would both easily fall into the "fine motor skill" book if a person subscribes to said theory.
Failure2Stop
08-16-11, 08:32
I have seen many more stuck gloves (material from the glove stuck between the slide and frame, or in the ejection port) from users of the overhand grab than users of the slide-stop. The gloves used were from standard flight gloves to thick OR cold weather gloves.
If you want to bring "SF" units into the equation, I have worked directly with and trained several upper tier (only 1 "Tier 1" unit though) "SF" units from the US and from other NATO forces. Frankly, the pistol is not a top training priority, and not once did I hear dissention when advocating use of the slide release when possible.
*Note: I am using "SF" to describe USSOCOM as well as foreign Special Forces, which do not fall under SOCOM, and are generally referred to simply as "SF".
I've been taught both ways. I've had respected trainers tell me that overhand slide release is more consistent than trying to reach around to the slide release and I've been taught the opposite. I've been told that overhand is better if your hand is slippery and bloody, and I just had Louis Awerbuck tell me that your hand is stickier when bloody.
In the end, I've gone to overhand slide release pointed downrange rather than the "workspace" concept because I do believe in the "gross vs fine motor skill" concept, as well as the fact that overhand at least allows you to keep the gun pointed downrange rather than upstairs at your loved ones hiding under the bed in the upstairs bedroom or a team member clearing the stairs.
In the end, we all have to make the decisions about weapons manipulation that make sense to us and fit our physical capabilities the best.
I think you might be doing something wrong if the gun is pointed straight up while releasing the slide.
If you believe in the gross motor skill concept under stress, then you will never be able to manipulate the trigger well (fine motor skill) nor find the mag release (fine motor skill).
C4
I'm a lefty and shoot a G17 w/ a Vickers slide stop. It's actually much faster and more reliable for me to use the slide stop. When I come off target, my trigger finger indexes along the slide and my middle knuckle is in perfect position to depress the release.
I have seen some lefty shooters run their Glock's EXTREMELY well utilizing the catch. So it can be done and can be done very well.
C4
Here is why I dont use the slide stop (I thought it was a slide release?...):
Here it gets cold, when it gets cold I use gloves - gloves make it harder to positively engage the slide stop I would rather be a quarter second slower and 100% sure I was going to get that slide forward and chambered.
I live in Ohio and shoot with gloves on. No issues hitting it.
Re: point 1 of the OP - I train muscle memory response for malfunctions so that if that moment comes in a gun fight that I will know what to do, not because my Glock malfunctions all the time.
When we practice malfunction clearing, we are actually attempting create a "Cause and Effect" in our brain that when we get a "click/dead trigger" our brain says TAP, RACK, BANG! So this is not a muscle memory thing (repetitive motion) so that we can do it fast and smooth. It is about conditioning our brain to have a thought pattern when we hear or feel something (like a dead trigger).
Re: point 2 - I would consider mashing down the mag release to be more of a gross movement than a fine one, look at the muscle movements involved in that vs. the movements involved in sweeping the slide release. Also, every gunfight I have been in involved a few things, none of them was my finger deftly manipulating the trigger to crisp clean suprise break. Mostly my trigger finger was jamming the trigger to the rear as fast as I could, as my body seemed to find new and interesting ways to conform to cover that should not have been able to hide a small house cat.
No. The mag release button is about the same size to smaller than the slide release. It is also in a harder to get to spot. So this means that most people have to alter their grip in order FIND it and DEPRESS it. Fine motor skill.
Smashing the trigger results in few to no hits (or poor hits). If Tier 1 units followed this thought process, they would never be able to make head shots (hostage rescue) or basically survive the fight (as only hits count).
Re: point 4 - both methods apply plenty of force to strip a round from the magazine and chamber it, this shouldnt even be a consideration other than people to "granny handle" the slide and induce their own malf.
Is very common with new shooters and when people are under stress. See it all the time in classes.
Re: point 5 - Good point, I remember this happening to me quite a few times with my old issued M9, thank god I dont have to use that thing any more.
Yep. This gun will get people killed if they use an overhand technique.
Re: point 6 - I would love to see some documentation showing one way or the other and correlating that with true combat experience, I personally haven't been to any of the top notch schools (soon, oh yes it will happen soon...) so I couldn't tell you who exactly is teaching what. I have been in true close quarters gunfights though, and with some of the best in the biz (although I was to busy at the time to notice how or even if those 626 boys were using their pistols or not).
Suggest you take some training with folks like Vickers and Hackathorn (two of the best firearms instructors in the World). There are others out there with combat experience that teach it as well.
C4
BushmasterFanBoy
08-16-11, 09:33
I feel it depends on what gun I'm shooting. 1911's, Glocks (sometimes), USP's (also sometimes), and any pistol I'm not familiar with = Rack the slide.
My stance is this: If my firing hand thumb is not near it without effort, I'm not going to waste time henpecking with my support hand thumb or contorting my firing grip. Sure, it bleeds time and could easily be overcome with training, but my pistols that I intend for serious use have easily accessible (by me at least) slide releases (M&P, M9).
I GREATLY prefer to use the slide release, and I feel it saves at least .25 seconds (if not closer to .5) and its a huge asset. But I'm not going to go training to memorize its activation on platforms that aren't on my short list. You're still able to survive with using a slide rack on a reload, although releasing is preferable.
F2S - The SF mention was more of a toungue in cheek thing, as I understand it Mr Vickers operated in that same community and I would imagine he has a much more keen insight into how they train than I!
C4I - shooting at the range wearing gloves where you tend to be active and have pretty good circulation, and having to take shots and manipulate a gun after 4 or 5 hours on a perimeter in -20 degrees are quite different. it almost becomes more of a hook the rear sight on the glove because you cant even get your fingers to curl up motion.... I would also submit that getting gloves caught up in the slide would tend to be a training thing.
Also, yes we are training our brain to react to certain stimulus, but as many have pointed out here before - you drop to your level of training in combat, if you train one way, chances are you will execute that way.
As for the slide catch being larger than the mag release? if you look at both from the side of the gun, then yes that is true, but look at the contact surface - the mag release is a button that all you have to do is use your thumb for what it was designed for, opposing grip. With the slide lock you are hitting a very thin surface on the top, not pushing the button in, so your thumb is coming up, contacting said thin surface and pushing it down while it is being engaged by the largest spring on the gun - I would contend that the two motions are very dissimilar.
I would LOVE to attend a class with Hackathorn or Vickers, it is in the works.
Bottom line: I am not here to say one way is better or worse, I happen to like the overhand grab better as in my opinion it is more reliable in more conditions.
HOWEVER - I have a good multi agency LE 3 gun match coming up at the end of the month, and I have a crapload of dept issue ammo to shoot, SOOOOOO I am gonna go out and try out this newfangled slide release/slide stop technique because I try to keep an open mind AND there are some good points to that technique as well. I will post either a new thread to review the range day, or post it here if this thread is still fairly active, I will even try to get some pictures or video.
Fair enough?
Semper Fi.
-----------------------------------------------Edited to Add-----------------------------------------------------
By the way RE: mashing trigger = bad hits..... There are a few insurgents that would disagree. No I am kidding, I really do think that for the most part good trigger usage is very important, but when some jerkoff is shooting at you and the tip of his AK is about 3' away then it doesnt really matter. Same goes for a gun battle in a house in Falluja - sometimes its just better to get rounds off as fast as possible because you are to close to miss and you really really really dont want him to get a chance to bring his AK up in your general direction.
With my current job that is a big no-no, every shot counts.
I use the slide release and primarily shoot a 1911. It's not an extended release and I don't have any problems finding it. As has been mentioned, your thumb is damn near on top of it after inserting a fresh magazine.
I think of it like this... Do you use the turn signal on your car or do you stick your arm out the window? The slide release was put there for a reason.
I think you might be doing something wrong if the gun is pointed straight up while releasing the slide.
If you believe in the gross motor skill concept under stress, then you will never be able to manipulate the trigger well (fine motor skill) nor find the mag release (fine motor skill).
C4
Not me...I don't use the slide release.
As to fine vs gross motor skills, I disagree completely and so do half of the last four instructors I've had. Having evaluated the reasoning they all presented, I went with the technique that made the most sense and works best for me. It works for me, it's safe, and effective.
I realize a lot of people are pretty invested in believing their way is best. The emotion in this debate is distracting tends to be distracting.
I realize a lot of people are pretty invested in believing their way is best. The emotion in this debate is distracting tends to be distracting.
Welcome to the internet as a whole, and this site in particular. It's just the way things work. It's not insurmountable but those that are trying to learn need to be aware of the fact and keep their salt shaker handy.
Arguing by proxy ("my way is best because my SME of choice says it's best" or worse "I had a foregone conclusion and found an SME that agreed with me") is a similar problem.
to the topic and hand, people should learn both and decide for THEMSELVES and not be swayed by internet forums, hero-worship, etc. What the internet is good for in these cases is perhaps showing people a way and a rationale that they hadn't been exposed to (imagine if you had only trained with those three of the four) that might allow them to find and try something new or different. Which applies to TTPs as well as guns & gear, BTW.
Not me...I don't use the slide release.
No, I think that if you believe that the gun must be pointed straight up in order to use the slide release, that is INCORRECT.
As to fine vs gross motor skills, I disagree completely and so do half of the last four instructors I've had. Having evaluated the reasoning they all presented, I went with the technique that made the most sense and works best for me. It works for me, it's safe, and effective.
I would suggest taking some other classes as you will get an entirely different view.
I realize a lot of people are pretty invested in believing their way is best. The emotion in this debate is distracting tends to be distracting.
I have no emotion in regards to how you drop the slide. The reason for this thread is that many people have incorrect assumptions as to why an over hand release method is best. This could be lack of training, lack of training with good instructors or old training from 20yrs ago. If people want to use an over hand technique, that is fine, but USE IT for the right reasons (like it just feels more reliable or better for me).
C4
Welcome to the internet as a whole, and this site in particular. It's just the way things work. It's not insurmountable but those that are trying to learn need to be aware of the fact and keep their salt shaker handy.
Arguing by proxy ("my way is best because my SME of choice says it's best" or worse "I had a foregone conclusion and found an SME that agreed with me") is a similar problem.
to the topic and hand, people should learn both and decide for THEMSELVES and not be swayed by internet forums, hero-worship, etc. What the internet is good for in these cases is perhaps showing people a way and a rationale that they hadn't been exposed to (imagine if you had only trained with those three of the four) that might allow them to find and try something new or different. Which applies to TTPs as well as guns & gear, BTW.
Agree.
When attempting to decide on how to run your gun, take at least two classes from two different PROFESSIONAL instructors. Make SURE to compare their backgrounds (as not all of them are equal).
When instructor "A" says use the over hand technique, ask them why they use it and how did they come to that reasoning (combat experience, etc). Listen closely and see if their thought process sounds right.
When instructor "B" says use the slide release, ask they why they use it and how did they come to that reasoning (combat experience, etc). Listen closely and see if their thought process sounds right.
C4
Just thought of something that I would like to see some replies on. How many of you that use the over hand technique for pistols use the charging handle on your AR to chamber a round (when the bolt is locked to the rear)?
C4
C4, I generally use the charging handle if the bolt is already forward, I use the bolt release if its already to the rear. Usually with light palm strike. I see that method of operation for the rifle to be significantly different than the overhand slide vs. Slide release on a pistol. Like I said, I am gonna play with the concepts in 2 weeks at a 3 gun match. I'll post an AAR.
C4, I generally use the charging handle if the bolt is already forward, I use the bolt release if its already to the rear. Usually with light palm strike. I see that method of operation for the rifle to be significantly different than the overhand slide vs. Slide release on a pistol. Like I said, I am gonna play with the concepts in 2 weeks at a 3 gun match. I'll post an AAR.
If bolt is closed, you have to use the CH to chamber a round (so that's a "given").
What I was getting at is if the bolt is locked to the rear, do you run the CH or the bolt catch?
Not to get side tracked, but hitting the bolt catch on the AR with your palm is generally a bad idea (as you can miss it OR your hand will cup it and not make enough contact in order to release the BCG).
Using the bolt catch on an AR or the slide release on a pistol is one in the same as your support hand thumb is in the EXACT same position (nearly touching the catch/release).
C4
C4, I generally use the charging handle if the bolt is already forward, I use the bolt release if its already to the rear. Usually with light palm strike. I see that method of operation for the rifle to be significantly different than the overhand slide vs. Slide release on a pistol. Like I said, I am gonna play with the concepts in 2 weeks at a 3 gun match. I'll post an AAR.
This is generally what I do as well.
I had been an overhand rack proponent starting in about 1999 due to the "consistency" theory. Since taking several courses over the years and evaluating my own performance during speed reloads, I have come to change my position and now rely on the slide stop lever to release the slide during speed reloads. I have whiffed on more overhand rack speed reloads than I care to admit when my hands get sweaty.
Another point which busted the "consistency" theory for me was that when using the overhand rack to clear malfunctions I often actually made the stoppage worse as my hand blocked the casing or round from being ejected under stress. Not to mention the many sliced open hands I got when clearing stovepipe malfunctions with the overhand rack. I have recently been transitioning to a sling-shot/pinch technique when clearing malfunctions.
Just thought of something that I would like to see some replies on. How many of you that use the over hand technique for pistols use the charging handle on your AR to chamber a round (when the bolt is locked to the rear)?
C4
I regularly train with a group that was originally taught the over hand technique. Most shooters in that group have migrated over the years to using the slide release (and of those that haven't, most are lefties). I never observed any of them use the charging handle to reload their AR rifles.
When training multiple firearms, it makes sense to look for commonalities in the respective manual of arms. Were I teaching experienced M4/M16 users on the M9, I'd certainly explain that the slide release performed essentially the same function as the bolt release and teach reloads similarly.
On the other hand, were I teaching pistol skills to a group already schooled on the AK47, I may well teach the handover technique.
This is not a one size fits all technique. As said before, instructors should know the different techniques - as well as which one(s) to instruct to a particular group depending on criteria including:
Type of firearm
Overall firearms proficiency level
Familiarity with the weapon
Physical ability to perform manipulations
Time available to train
Tactical gear
C4, I can't say I have ever had a problem that I can remember not releasing the bolt when I palm the bolt catch - however always willing to try something different. I use my thumb from time to time as well - I have been shooting AR's for 13 years now in some sort of proffesional capacity and it strikes me that, although I do tend to use my palm near to 80% of the time I use my thumb fairly often as well.... I will try to evalute myself more closely at this coming shooting match.
I would imagine that when I am using my thumb it would tend to be when I am gripping the mag well - which would be more often recently because my current rifle does not have a vertical foregrip attached.
"If bolt is closed, you have to use the CH to chamber a round (so that's a "given")."
Sure is. Just breaking it down dummy style.
C4, I can't say I have ever had a problem that I can remember not releasing the bolt when I palm the bolt catch - however always willing to try something different. I use my thumb from time to time as well - I have been shooting AR's for 13 years now in some sort of proffesional capacity and it strikes me that, although I do tend to use my palm near to 80% of the time I use my thumb fairly often as well.... I will try to evalute myself more closely at this coming shooting match.
I would imagine that when I am using my thumb it would tend to be when I am gripping the mag well - which would be more often recently because my current rifle does not have a vertical foregrip attached.
"If bolt is closed, you have to use the CH to chamber a round (so that's a "given")."
Sure is. Just breaking it down dummy style.
You use a magwell hold when shooting your AR?
C4
NCPatrolAR
08-18-11, 19:39
Using the palm of the hand to slap the bolt catch is less than ideal from an economy of motion perspective. Also you create more movement in the gun
I had been an overhand rack proponent starting in about 1999 due to the "consistency" theory. Since taking several courses over the years and evaluating my own performance during speed reloads, I have come to change my position and now rely on the slide stop lever to release the slide during speed reloads. I have whiffed on more overhand rack speed reloads than I care to admit when my hands get sweaty.
Another point which busted the "consistency" theory for me was that when using the overhand rack to clear malfunctions I often actually made the stoppage worse as my hand blocked the casing or round from being ejected under stress. Not to mention the many sliced open hands I got when clearing stovepipe malfunctions with the overhand rack. I have recently been transitioning to a sling-shot/pinch technique when clearing malfunctions.
Thanks for the feedback. I too have seen people cut their hand, cause a malfunction by trapping an empty case in the gun or get skin pinched between the slide and barrel. :stop:
C4
Amongst other things. I am fairly comfortable with a number of different methods. Slip ring, forward grip, VFG, angled foregrip. I tend to shoot faster and more accurately than most of the people around me, so I haven't sweated it to much.
Amongst other things. I am fairly comfortable with a number of different methods. Slip ring, forward grip, VFG, angled foregrip. I tend to shoot faster and more accurately than most of the people around me, so I haven't sweated it to much.
Magwell grip is typically one of the least desirable positions in regards to speed and handling.
C4
Robb Jensen
08-18-11, 22:25
FWIW, I use the slide catch and bolt catch but hey I'm a "hi-speed/Gucci/Ninja/Gamer" according to my friend The LAV. Smooth and Fast indeed! :)
saddlerocker
08-18-11, 22:41
Well I am sorta new to all this, but...
My M&P9 slide will automatically close if I slam a new mag in, which is nice.
But When I first started with the gun I would use the slide catch/release, but then read on interweb forums (Bad Idea I know), that you shouldnt use the "Slide Catch" as a "Slide Release", because its bad for something or other.
If someone here can put that idea to rest then I would be a slide release guy, much faster and more natural then overhand.
I recommend that if you rely on your M&P9 as a carry gun to avoid relying on the mag slam "auto-forward" to send the slide forward during reloads. If you carry hollowpoint ammo in your M&P9, using the auto-forward will likely cause you feeding issues. I have never handled an M&P9 full-size that I couldn't manage to jam up when using the auto-forward with hollowpoint ammo.
saddlerocker
08-18-11, 23:37
Learn something new everyday, I hadnt heard of that, but I have only used FMJs so far
Its almost hard not to induce the "Auto Forward", I have to be very gentle, which in a stress situation would be tough.
Yes I have my own ideas on this topic, hell I even have some crappy youtube video's on the topic if anyone wishes to know more about my thoughts on the topic, just check out my sig as I am too lazy to link it. ;)
Basically I teach 3 methods, either the overhand, slingshot or the slide catch / release. This is dependent on a few factors such as, right or left hander, weapon used, gloved or non-gloved, the actual shooter themselves. All of these factors in various combinations can change the overall technique that I support. This is where the knowledge / skill of the instructor kicks in to properly identify and evaluate a correct course of action for their student, given the parameters and the end goal. I am of the mindset that I generally say, just because I do something, doesn't necessarily mean that you should also. I teach various methods as everyone is different and there are far too many variables involved. I do however teach what I feel is the most advantageous given that particular shooters restrictions / abilities.
I come to many of my conclusions by looking at my own performance under the various conditions and attempting to equate that to the skill level / conditions of those that I teach. Again, I always say, that what works for me, doesn't necessarily mean that it will work for you and your given situation. But having options and very viable solutions that work best given the parameters for each student or groups of students is what really separates a good instructor from a great one.
Also there is far too much worship on the www. But it is what it is. Some of the absolute best people that I have had the privilege of training with / under, quite frankly on the www, their names probably wouldn't even ring a bell to most people.
FWIW, I use the slide catch and bolt catch but hey I'm a "hi-speed/Gucci/Ninja/Gamer" according to my friend The LAV. Smooth and Fast indeed! :)
What is interesting is that we are seeing more and more of the Competition World bleed over into the Tactical World. As we all know, not everything that comes out of the Competition World has merit in the Defensive World.
In this instance (using the slide catch/release) it is almost 100% used in the upper Competition World (as they realize that it is faster to use the catch/release).
I find it strange that some of the goofy chit from the Competition World has thoroughly ingrained itself in the Tactical World, but the use of the slide catch/release has not. :blink:
Oh and Robb, you are a HSLD Ninja my friend. ;)
C4
Well I am sorta new to all this, but...
My M&P9 slide will automatically close if I slam a new mag in, which is nice.
But When I first started with the gun I would use the slide catch/release, but then read on interweb forums (Bad Idea I know), that you shouldnt use the "Slide Catch" as a "Slide Release", because its bad for something or other.
If someone here can put that idea to rest then I would be a slide release guy, much faster and more natural then overhand.
Just as an FYI, autoforwarding is not a good thing. Do some searches on the forum about it and why you do not want to use it.
C4
Yes I have my own ideas on this topic, hell I even have some crappy youtube video's on the topic if anyone wishes to know more about my thoughts on the topic, just check out my sig as I am too lazy to link it. ;)
Basically I teach 3 methods, either the overhand, slingshot or the slide catch / release. This is dependent on a few factors such as, right or left hander, weapon used, gloved or non-gloved, the actual shooter themselves. All of these factors in various combinations can change the overall technique that I support. This is where the knowledge / skill of the instructor kicks in to properly identify and evaluate a correct course of action for their student, given the parameters and the end goal. I am of the mindset that I generally say, just because I do something, doesn't necessarily mean that you should also. I teach various methods as everyone is different and there are far too many variables involved. I do however teach what I feel is the most advantageous given that particular shooters restrictions / abilities.
I come to many of my conclusions by looking at my own performance under the various conditions and attempting to equate that to the skill level / conditions of those that I teach. Again, I always say, that what works for me, doesn't necessarily mean that it will work for you and your given situation. But having options and very viable solutions that work best given the parameters for each student or groups of students is what really separates a good instructor from a great one.
Also there is far too much worship on the www. But it is what it is. Some of the absolute best people that I have had the privilege of training with / under, quite frankly on the www, their names probably wouldn't even ring a bell to most people.
First, let me say that your vids are not "crappy." I have watched a good many of them AND refer them to people all the time. They are simple, clean and to the point. You also know a lot and that comes through in them (insert Golf clap here).
I totally agree about teaching a method that the student can either understand OR utilize for their needs. Anytime I hear an instructor say; "YOU MUST DO IT MY WAY," I have already hit the delete button on them.
Personally, I feel that a NOOB RIGHT handed shooter can easily learn to run the slide catch/release right out of the gate. So it isn't some voodoo skill set that only experienced shooters should learn. That is where my rub is. For whatever reason, utilizing the slide/catch release has this stigma that around it that you must be a tactical ninja in order to do it. Hell, if you cannot operate the slide catch/release (as it is to fine a motor skill) than I am about 100% certain you cannot manipulate the trigger cleanly to the rear.
C4
Magwell grip is typically one of the least desirable positions in regards to speed and handling.
C4
Yup. but at 5 yards doesn't really matter to much. Like I said its just one of several ways I manipulate the gun - by no means the most common, in fact probably the least.
I know this is really starting to get off course a bit, but... besides using your palm or thumb how else would you suggest hitting that bolt latch release on the AR15?
QuietShootr
08-19-11, 13:48
I started out using the slide release, then started with the overhand as a result of 2004-2006 era training, and I'm back to retraining to use the slide release. It surely is a hell of a lot faster. I don't even remember why I drank the overhand Kool-aid now.
Now, I have Glock factory extended slide stops on all my Glocks - I agree the stocker is a little harder to hit. But, you just press in on it and it goes down - you don't have to hit the top of the little piece of metal. The extended is speedyquick, though.
Yup. but at 5 yards doesn't really matter to much. Like I said its just one of several ways I manipulate the gun - by no means the most common, in fact probably the least.
I know this is really starting to get off course a bit, but... besides using your palm or thumb how else would you suggest hitting that bolt latch release on the AR15?
Really? I bet you it does (especially whe driving the gun between targets).
You CAN release the BCG via the CH.
C4
I started out using the slide release, then started with the overhand as a result of 2004-2006 era training, and I'm back to retraining to use the slide release. It surely is a hell of a lot faster. I don't even remember why I drank the overhand Kool-aid now.
Now, I have Glock factory extended slide stops on all my Glocks - I agree the stocker is a little harder to hit. But, you just press in on it and it goes down - you don't have to hit the top of the little piece of metal. The extended is speedyquick, though.
Question for you QS, during the early 2000's, who was really pushing the overhand technique?
C4
QuietShootr
08-19-11, 14:30
Question for you QS, during the early 2000's, who was really pushing the overhand technique?
C4
IIRC, I think I was first exposed to it at Pat Rogers' training, and not long after that it was reinforced by a number of guys who were teaching under the ITOG banner before it dissolved. I attended some Gunsite classes in the mid 00s as well, and nobody ever dissuaded me from doing it. I really don't remember who was the guru of the overhand - I do remember there being an overhand vs. slingshot slap-fight, and I stayed with the overhand - but again I don't remember the principals involved. It just seemed ubiquitous from 2005-on to me.
However, since then I started shooting with some really fast people and it became quite obvious I was just wasting buckets of time compared to hitting the slide stop.
IIRC, I think I was first exposed to it at Pat Rogers' training, and not long after that it was reinforced by a number of guys who were teaching under the ITOG banner before it dissolved. I attended some Gunsite classes in the mid 00s as well, and nobody ever dissuaded me from doing it. I really don't remember who was the guru of the overhand - I do remember there being an overhand vs. slingshot slap-fight, and I stayed with the overhand - but again I don't remember the principals involved. It just seemed ubiquitous from 2005-on to me.
However, since then I started shooting with some really fast people and it became quite obvious I was just wasting buckets of time compared to hitting the slide stop.
Thanks for the info.
I trained with a 1911 through out most of the 2000's so there was really never a question for me that I would use the slide release.
C4
I wonder why we have not heard more people chime in on whether or not they the bolt catch on the AR15???
I was really hoping to hear for the overhand slide release crowd about what they used and why.
C4
I wonder why we have not heard more people chime in on whether or not they the bolt catch on the AR15???
I was really hoping to hear for the overhand slide release crowd about what they used and why.
C4
I hit the paddle with my palm. Gross motor skills again, and for me it's a more natural motion than trying to fumble with the charging handle. I can do it as continuation of the same motion as the mag insertion.
Thumb on bolt catch for me
Out of curiosity, why would someone use the charging handle as the bolt release?
Speaking for myself, the overhand rack technique was first introduced to me in the police academy in '99. The whole gross vs fine motor skill theory was the "why" that was given. During the first private pistol training course I attended in 2004, the same reasoning was given then. I never thought twice about questioning the theory until I really started shooting drills a lot on my own under the stress of a shot timer.
Not only were my times faster using the slide stop, my "whiffs" or misses of the manipulation went down to nearly zero with the slide stop when compared to using the overhand technique.
Out of curiosity, why would someone use the charging handle as the bolt release?
Well I really don't know (as it is a poor choice). I guess one theory is that it is the same reason why people use the overhand technique on a pistol (same motion for clearing a malfunction).
Currently, I do not know of any of professional instructors that use the CH to release the bolt or suggest using ones palm to hit the bolt catch.
C4
NCPatrolAR
08-19-11, 21:40
Out of curiosity, why would someone use the charging handle as the bolt release?
The whole gross motor skill thing. Its supposed to be easier to run the charging handle under stress than hit the bolt release.
If I'm not mistaken, TRident Concepts and Tactical Response advocate the charging handle method.
The whole gross motor skill thing. Its supposed to be easier to run the charging handle under stress than hit the bolt release.
If I'm not mistaken, TRident Concepts and Tactical Response advocate the charging handle method.
Say no more.
C4
It is no secret that my preferred method on almost all pistols is some variation of a slide release method. For an M4 type platform, I prefer the BAD lever (been using them a longer than Magpul has been around), but without a BAD lever I use my thumb.
As a bit of a background on the Overhand / slingshot v. slide release, the methodology for teaching that technique, it was very predominant throughout the 90's and into the mid 2000's. Despite what anyone thinks about the NRA or LE in general both entities have a lot of influence in the recreational shooting world. So we need to look at the NRA being the largest trainer of shooters period and the largest trainer of LE trainers who train cops. So the NRA has been and still is the largest force in firearms training / methodology and yes they are a proponent of the overhand or slingshot release for commonality amongst almost all semi auto pistols, but the bigger reason preached is the gross v. fine motor skills debate.
The Overhand and Slingshot is still widely touted these days for various reasons and IMO there are sound arguments for using either the overhand or slingshot method under certain circumstances. There are some weapons without the external catch, there are some who's catches are not well sized or conducive from the manufacturer to be used as a release. Also despite what anyone says about gloves, with certain pistol models and normal tactical style gloves, I have fumbled the slide release method on certain pistols, including my standard carry Sig P226. Enough so, that I cut off the index finger and thumbs from my gloves. Again just because the slide release with gloves works for someone, doesn't mean it will work reliably across the board for everyone, so we need options to teach.
I will say that most of the people that I instruct are mandated to wear a flame resistant type of glove. Because of this gloved hand, the overhand and slingshot are included as techniques that I teach. The motor skills argument is not one of my personal reasons however. Other benefits may include commonality between malfunction clearances, but this would be lower on my reasoning scale.
Now if I have the time to work more closely with a shooter perhaps on a regular basis then I might encourage refining or trying varying techniques, but there is a good argument for teaching something with high reliability to work in any combination's of situations that we can think of, for the overall group as a whole that we are addressing. As skill levels advance and as persons develop their own unique style, there is no reason that the shooter cannot progress into differing techniques. I will even encourage and foster certain things and help the shooter all that I can in their learning curve / progression.
As for the CH as a release, I do know that Jeff Gonzales, former Navy SEAL and owner of Trident Concepts uses the CH release method. While I do not personally care for this method or teach it, Mr. Gonzales is highly highly regarded and for good reason. I also know of a couple other well known schools that taught this CH release method. Not sure if they still do or not.
Sorry typed my response earlier but just posted it. As was mentioned Jeff Gonzales still uses this and I didn't name names, but TR did teach this and Gunsite taught this at one point in time. Not sure if they still do.
As for the CH as a release, I do know that Jeff Gonzales, former Navy SEAL and owner of Trident Concepts uses the CH release method. While I do not personally care for this method or teach it, Mr. Gonzales is highly highly regarded and for good reason. I also know of a couple other well known schools that taught this CH release method. Not sure if they still do or not.
In his book Combative Fundamentals, Jeff Gonzales promotes both as options for carbine and teaches both (palm strike on the paddle or racking the charging handle). Quoting from his book, regarding carbine combat reloads (page 213)...
Jeff Gonzales in Combative Fundamentals
Once the magazine is firmly seated, cycle the action by releasing the bolt catch to chamber a round. To do this, slap the left side of the receiver with your whole weak hand, focusing the meat of your palm over the bolt release. This is another example of gross motor skill versus fine motor skill.....Another suitable option is to cycle the action using the charging handle...The difference is it mimics other manipulations you do with the charging handle, the bad news is that it takes more time.
As to pistol, Jeff Gonzales does teach overhand slide release for pistol, as does Louis Awerbuck. I just took a pistol course from Louis two weeks ago. I have a carbine course (Combative Carbine II) with Jeff Gonzales coming up in a month, so I'll be interested to get more detail on this issue in case his current teaching varies from what he wrote in his book. Both of these guys are respected instructors and combat veterans.
Also, FWIW, MagPul Dynamics teaches overhand slide release for pistol combat reload, and bolt catch release for carbine, or at least they did when they made their videos.
In his book Combative Fundamentals, Jeff Gonzales promotes both as options for carbine and teaches both (palm strike on the paddle or racking the charging handle). Quoting from his book, regarding carbine combat reloads (page 213)...
As to pistol, Jeff Gonzales does teach overhand slide release for pistol, as does Louis Awerbuck. I just took a pistol course from Louis two weeks ago. I have a carbine course (Combative Carbine II) with Jeff Gonzales coming up in a month, so I'll be interested to get more detail on this issue in case his current teaching varies from what he wrote in his book. Both of these guys are respected instructors and combat veterans.
Also, FWIW, MagPul Dynamics teaches overhand slide release for pistol combat reload, and bolt catch release for carbine, or at least they did when they made their videos.
I at least like the consistency. If you are going to teach gross motor manipulation, teach it across all firearms.
On a side note, at the 1911 centennial class, the class heard a lot of stories about Col. Cooper. One of them that was most interesting is in regards to training. Cooper taught/believed a particular technique for many years and then realized he was wrong. He feared that if he changed his opinion (in public) people would devalue all his other teachings.
I am wondering if we aren't seeing some of this now.
Thanks for the post and please let us know what is taught in your up coming classes.
C4
I took TriCon's Carbine Operator Course in 2009 and he taught to use the charging handle to release the bolt. Unfortunately, I do not remember the reasoning he stated for using that method. I BELIEVE it was gross motor skill, but am not sure.
I at least like the consistency. If you are going to teach gross motor manipulation, teach it across all firearms.
On a side note, at the 1911 centennial class, the class heard a lot of stories about Col. Cooper. One of them that was most interesting is in regards to training. Cooper taught/believed a particular technique for many years and then realized he was wrong. He feared that if he changed his opinion (in public) people would devalue all his other teachings.
I am wondering if we aren't seeing some of this now.
Thanks for the post and please let us know what is taught in your up coming classes.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
08-20-11, 13:44
I took TriCon's Carbine Operator Course in 2009 and he taught to use the charging handle to release the bolt. Unfortunately, I do not remember the reasoning he stated for using that method. I BELIEVE it was gross motor skill, but am not sure.
Having spoken to one of their instructors over the phone, I'm surprised they didn't tell you that it would strip the round from the magazine more reliably, and eliminate certain malfunctions.
Failure to come into battery.
Bolt over base.
Failure to lock.
And something else.
Having spoken to one of their instructors over the phone, I'm surprised they didn't tell you that it would strip the round from the magazine more reliably, and eliminate certain malfunctions.
Failure to come into battery.
Bolt over base.
Failure to lock.
And something else.
When I took his class, I believe he said
It was easier to hit the charging handle then the bolt release
The extra spring tension was better, hence the term "power stroke"
Don't remember anything about motor skills.
Bob
On a side note, at the 1911 centennial class, the class heard a lot of stories about Col. Cooper. One of them that was most interesting is in regards to training. Cooper taught/believed a particular technique for many years and then realized he was wrong. He feared that if he changed his opinion (in public) people would devalue all his other teachings.
C4
Louis Awerbuck taught at Gunsite with Col. Cooper for several years until 1987. Louis still quotes Cooper's teaching a lot in his Yavapai courses.
Robb Jensen
08-20-11, 14:17
The gross motor skill argument doesn't hold water. If you've been "fine motor skilled" enough in slapping the bang switch with a single booger hook so much that you've depleted your ammo and now need a reload how can you now not be "fine motor skilled" enough to hit a bolt catch or slide catch?
Maybe I think too much? ;)
Louis Awerbuck taught at Gunsite with Col. Cooper for several years until 1987. Louis still quotes Cooper's teaching a lot in his Yavapai courses.
Interesting.
C4
The gross motor skill argument doesn't hold water. If you've been "fine motor skilled" enough in slapping the bang switch with a single booger hook so much that you've depleted your ammo and now need a reload how can you now not be "fine motor skilled" enough to hit a bolt catch or slide catch?
Maybe I think too much? ;)
Your a moron. Oh wait, I think the same way you do. :D
C4
When I first got a 1911 back before there was an internet and had any training, I used the slide release. It seemed natural or I guess I did not know any better.
When I took my first ever firearms class with it in the mid 1980s, it was given in Dallas by Ronin Coleman, a former Gunsite instructor at the time, who taught using the slide release. The class was taught using the Weaver stance. I am not sure if the instructor deviated from Gunsite teachings or if Gunsite advocated the slide release at the time, but I can definitely tell you that we were taught using the slide release.
Interestingly, I also took two courses from Massad Ayoob in the late 1980s who also taught using the slide release. I am not sure if he still does so. I don't think it was until the 2000s that I even encountered the doctrine of using the overhand rack or slingshot. I never adopted it.
The gross motor skill argument doesn't hold water. If you've been "fine motor skilled" enough in slapping the bang switch with a single booger hook so much that you've depleted your ammo and now need a reload how can you now not be "fine motor skilled" enough to hit a bolt catch or slide catch?
Maybe I think too much? ;)
The gross motor skill argument seems intuitively obvious to me.
.
Actually the "gross motor skill" argument holds NO water. The terms gross and fine motor skill relate to early childhood develompent and have to do with what dexterity a child should display at a certian age. We are all well beyond that age.
What you can suffer under stress is a loss of dexterity (and yes, there is a difference). This can be alleviated through training and experience. If you have the skill level to run your gun without thinking about it (you DO don't you?), activating the slide stop will be a non-issue. If you can press the trigger and activate the mag catch the slide stop is no more difficult. In fact I would argue that hitting the slide stop is easier then appling correct trigger control as it does not matter how hard you smash the slide stop, we all know what happens when you start smashing the trigger.
If your argument is that it is difficult for YOU to activate the slide stop and you feel more comfortable using a sling shot or overhand method, then drive on. If you wear heavy gloves that do not allow YOU to actuate the slide stop and chose to use a overhand method rather then getting another pair of gloves, drive on. Of course if you are left handed some weapon systems are just not all that friendly to YOU as well. Do not simply regurgitate what has been stated on the errornet. Just because it's in print doesn't make it so.
Using the slide stop is faster. End. Stop. If YOU can't, or choose not to do it that way, that's fine, but don't use the excuse of some internet tripe.
Actually the "gross motor skill" argument holds NO water. The terms gross and fine motor skill relate to early childhood develompent and have to do with what dexterity a child should display at a certian age. We are all well beyond that age.
What you can suffer under stress is a loss of dexterity (and yes, there is a difference). This can be alleviated through training and experience. If you have the skill level to run your gun without thinking about it (you DO don't you?), activating the slide stop will be a non-issue. If you can press the trigger and activate the mag catch the slide stop is no more difficult. In fact I would argue that hitting the slide stop is easier then appling correct trigger control as it does not matter how hard you smash the slide stop, we all know what happens when you start smashing the trigger.
If your argument is that it is difficult for YOU to activate the slide stop and you feel more comfortable using a sling shot or overhand method, then drive on. If you wear heavy gloves that do not allow YOU to actuate the slide stop and chose to use a overhand method rather then getting another pair of gloves, drive on. Of course if you are left handed some weapon systems are just not all that friendly to YOU as well. Do not simply regurgitate what has been stated on the errornet. Just because it's in print doesn't make it so.
Using the slide stop is faster. End. Stop. If YOU can't, or choose not to do it that way, that's fine, but don't use the excuse of some internet tripe.
As I mentioned, I use it because it works for me, consistently and accurately. Not based on some physiologic concept. You use whatever works for you based on, your need for speed, and YOUR understanding of the autonomic nervous system... I'm fine with that since it doesn't affect me in the least.
Faster might be important to you. I don't shoot competition, so the milliseconds I lose using a natural hand motion that doesn't require regripping the gun aren't important to me.
Internet tripe? Somebody was basing their opinion on internet tripe? Certainly not I.
NCPatrolAR
08-20-11, 19:46
1. If I've shot my gun to slide lock and still need to do more shooting; I would think a faster method of getting back into the fight would be desirable.
2. If you are changing your grip in order to depress the slide stop you are doing it wrong.
1. If I've shot my gun to slide lock and still need to do more shooting; I would think a faster method of getting back into the fight would be desirable.
2. If you are changing your grip in order to depress the slide stop you are doing it wrong.
I would think that getting the gun back into the fight accurately and consistently is more important than speed.
Actually the "gross motor skill" argument holds NO water. The terms gross and fine motor skill relate to early childhood develompent and have to do with what dexterity a child should display at a certian age. We are all well beyond that age.
What you can suffer under stress is a loss of dexterity (and yes, there is a difference). This can be alleviated through training and experience. If you have the skill level to run your gun without thinking about it (you DO don't you?), activating the slide stop will be a non-issue. If you can press the trigger and activate the mag catch the slide stop is no more difficult. In fact I would argue that hitting the slide stop is easier then appling correct trigger control as it does not matter how hard you smash the slide stop, we all know what happens when you start smashing the trigger.
If your argument is that it is difficult for YOU to activate the slide stop and you feel more comfortable using a sling shot or overhand method, then drive on. If you wear heavy gloves that do not allow YOU to actuate the slide stop and chose to use a overhand method rather then getting another pair of gloves, drive on. Of course if you are left handed some weapon systems are just not all that friendly to YOU as well. Do not simply regurgitate what has been stated on the errornet. Just because it's in print doesn't make it so.
Using the slide stop is faster. End. Stop. If YOU can't, or choose not to do it that way, that's fine, but don't use the excuse of some internet tripe.
Good post JR. The term "Gross and Fine motor skill" should be replaced with dexterity under stress.
Let's face the fact that we all do not have the same athletic abilities, hand eye coordination or function the same under stress. So while it might be natural and simple for ME to operate the slide catch/release, others may not be able to.
C4
I would think that getting the gun back into the fight accurately and consistently is more important than speed.
It is (within reason). Here is the catch though, you can also do it reliably via the slide catch/release as well (because your finger basically TOUCHING this lever after you insert the mag).
I think this is the point.
C4
Robb Jensen
08-20-11, 20:06
Most civilian defensive gunfights are over in seconds. Your life might be lost in those seconds.
"When you need to be shooting, you need to be shooting. Anything that takes time and effort away from that is a drain on precious resources." - Ernest Langdon
Good post JR. The term "Gross and Fine motor skill" should be replaced with dexterity under stress.
C4
OK "dexterity under stress" it is.
My firearm manipulation concepts have changed a lot over the last 30 years. New tools, new research, new tactics, new threats. I used to use the slide release too. I thought is was cool. It's what the cops and spies did in the movies. Over those years, and especially recently, I've had instructors, some with even more experience under combat stress than many of our training experts here on M4C and in this thread, show me different methods of weapon manipulation that I ultimately have found to be more suitable to me for my needs. Combat reloads among them. So, over the last few years, I've changed my shooting. Again. And I like it. For now.
OK "dexterity under stress" it is.
My firearm manipulation concepts have changed a lot over the last 30 years. New tools, new research, new tactics, new threats. I used to use the slide release too. I thought is was cool. It's what the cops and spies did in the movies. Over those years, and especially recently, I've had instructors, some with even more experience under combat stress than many of our training experts here on M4C and in this thread, show me different methods of weapon manipulation that I ultimately have found to be more suitable to me for my needs. Combat reloads among them. So, over the last few years, I've changed my shooting. Again. And I like it. For now.
Can I get a royalty check every time it is used from now on??? :thank_you2:
C4
Most civilian defensive gunfights are over in seconds. Your life might be lost in those seconds.
"When you need to be shooting, you need to be shooting. Anything that takes time and effort away from that is a drain on precious resources." - Ernest Langdon
You presume that the hundredths of a second saved by one technique over the other may make the difference in saving my life in my next gunfight. I appreciate that, but personally I doubt it.
Can I get a royalty check every time it is used from now on??? :thank_you2:
C4
http://SSEquine.net/zimba1.jpg
Failure2Stop
08-20-11, 20:40
Joe R.- well put.
You presume that the hundredths of a second saved by one technique over the other may make the difference in saving my life in my next gunfight. I appreciate that, but personally I doubt it.
And you presume that you can do an overhand grab and rack within "hundreths of a second" of a slide-release.
Remember, it's not JUST getting the slide forward and a round into the chamber, but also to re-grip, present, and hit.
One method puts the support hand on the pistol as the slide slams home and one puts it a few inches behind the gun, with both hands moving away from each other in space, with the sights either rotated or covered by the support hand.
I have yet to see any proof (even in sim-guns, which are notorious for stoppages) that the overhand OR slingshot method get the gun into the fight more dependably, more consistently, faster, or with better hits. What I can prove is that with people that can properly operate a slide release, they will be able to fire a round faster, and yes, that does make a difference in a fight that is measured in feet and 1/10ths of seconds.
You presume that the hundredths of a second saved by one technique over the other may make the difference in saving my life in my next gunfight. I appreciate that, but personally I doubt it.
Have you ever measured the difference with a shot timer? With the guys that I have trained, it is usually measured in .5 to 1.5 seconds difference not in hundredths of a second. With .25 split times, that is anywhere from 2 to 6 rounds fired. That is an eternity. Granted most of these are your average street officer and are not strong shooters. A lot of this time is wasted movement before, during and after the sling-shot or power-stroke. YMMV.
You presume that the hundredths of a second saved by one technique over the other may make the difference in saving my life in my next gunfight. I appreciate that, but personally I doubt it.Again, I agree we teach other methods to address certain other limitations. I also agree that works for one person, doesn't work for everyone under every situation.
Having said that, I am not at huge odds with your responses until this one. Now if we presume anything, unless if you are in a combat arms role currently deployed in a war zone the odds of being in a gun fight are hugely minimal. So why even carry a weapon or have one available for defensive reasons? Well we do it for the .01% chance. So if that .01% chance does happen, we should not discount any possibility as we are now gambling with our lives and/or other loved ones lives also. I will argue that every fraction of a second that the fight continues your odds increase of losing that fight.
I personally am at the point in my training where I am attempting to fine tune everything I can about my shooting style and trim the fat. The sum of shaving a tenth of a second here and a tenth of a second there very much add up to a larger whole. Statistically speaking, in a gunfight the bad guy is popping off another round at you to end your life every quarter of a second. I am not hugely wrapped around stats, but this is very much one that makes clear sense to me. Every .25 seconds that I can shave off, with the same reliability, I am going to take it.
I like to think I am pretty fast with a reload when talking one particular method only. However the slide release vs. the overhand or slingshot is significantly different. Again every tenth is significant to me. Every .25 sec is literally a lifetime. I have a private video where I do 4 reloads back to back in one string. I perform them all quickly, just as reliably and without bobble. The most notable difference? Yep, the speed. Maybe I will re-shoot it someday where you can't see my ugly mug as the video is telling. At least for me it is. :)
http://SSEquine.net/zimba1.jpg
Damn.
Failure2Stop
08-21-11, 08:19
WTH are you talking about?
Apparently I misread your "Tripe" comment.
As it is not pertinent to the discussion I edited it out of my post.
Apparently I misread your "Tripe" comment.
As it is not pertinent to the discussion I edited it out of my post.
Thank you for the clarification.
Well, it's been an interesting discussion. Some good points and observations made. I, for one, appreciate the dispassionate input.
In the end, I suspect I'll continue to let my shooting and weapons manipulation techniques evolve based on my needs and on the advice of the instructors that I shoot with and the courses that I take, but I'll be interested to raise these points next time I see my primary instructor (in case he isn't already following this thread).
Who knows?...maybe I will evolve back to slide release as I become more experienced.
Robb Jensen
08-21-11, 09:40
Very cool always keep an open mind.
Just for clarification I use my support hand thumb to press the pistols slide catch as well as the bolt catch on an AR. Just think how close your thumb is to each the bolt catch and slide catch as you seat a fresh magazine. Also the support hand is then almost all the way onto the gun for a firing grip. I'm not seating a pistol mag then completely removing the hand to operate the slide and then bringing it back to reacquire a firing grip. (way too much waste of motion)
Using a timer I've seen really good shooters speed up by .25-.45 seconds , not so skilled shooters .5 to 1.5 seconds. Speed isn't just for competition, there are many things in competition that make it into the real gunfighting world. Fast efficient reloads are one of those good things that have made it to the tactical real gunfighting world. Of course not everything techniques wise used in the competition world would be recommended for gunfighting. But one should not discount something just because it IS used in competition.
Also, FWIW, MagPul Dynamics teaches overhand slide release for pistol combat reload, and bolt catch release for carbine, or at least they did when they made their videos.
They mentioned some advantages of different type reloads, but both Travis & Chris seem to use the slide release.
Here is a video of Travis illustrating three variations of the reload--all of which employ the slide release:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vnwg_kRRkM
It's been a while since I have seen their handgun video, and I've only done the carbine class with them which only touched on the handgun. But they are definitely not in the forefront of the rack the slide crowd.
Jason Falla
08-21-11, 23:41
Here is some methodology and observations from the RB1 Combat Training System on this subject.
1. The overhand grab: This technique originated well before the advent of modern combat handguns such as the Glock. It was designed for the 1911 and Browning SLP's as they did not have a large/oversized ejection port and in order to clear a round from the chamber, the weapon had to be rolled to the right to ensure that gravity assisted the round in clearing the tight ejection port. Bio-mechanically the only way to accomplish this is to grasp the slide in the overhand fashion. Also sending the slide forward in this fashion is a more guaranteed method of ensuring lock up with a dirty/sticky 1911/Browning HP.
2. The sling-shot: This technique allows the shooter to perform a similar movement to the overhand-grab, but makes better use of bio-mechanics due to the oversized ejection port opening of modern handguns such as USP/Glock etc.
3. The slide stop/slide release: This technique is the fastest method of returning the slide into battery. However, it does rely on perfect technique to insert the magazine fully then release the slide with the master thumb. Causing 'auto-forwarding' may induce a failure to feed. Auto-forwarding is caused by poor technique.
4. Support thumb release: This technique is useful for shooters with smaller hands that can not actuate the slide release with the master hand, or if you are shooting a 1911 with a small slide release. This is the second faster method of returning the slide into battery and is the most accuracy as there can be not mistake of sending the slide forward early because the support hand is inserting the magazine then hitting the slide release.
Observations:
1. All techniques achieve the aim of returning the slide into battery. You need to determine what works best for you and master that technique. However, ensure you know other methods in case you need to use them. (Always have an Immediate Action drill, if I can't do that, I will do this!)
2. There is always enough time to get things done when operating in a large assault group. You may only represent a small percentage of the whole and easy to teach techniques that are less technical than others make consistency easier for instructors qualifying students in manipulating weapons. (Unless you have been there, this is the hardest to understand concept.)
3. Some high level Special Operations forces teach using the charging handle only to return the carbine bolt into battery. This to them is seen as a guaranteed method of lockup, preventing any feeding malfunctions. My bolt release works just fine for me.
4. If you damage your hand in a combative hands on situation, you may not have the ability to release the slide in your preferred method. The easiest digit to injure is the thumb during a fight. You may not have the tensile strength to use the slide release and may have to rely on the overhand grab! (I damaged the tendon in my master thumb during a hands on fight and could not lock the slide to the rear using my master thumb!) Bottom line is make sure you know your strong and support hand only reloads and malfunction clearances.
5. Left handers have options too! You can sling-shot like everyone else or you can use the middle finger to come under the gun and hit the slide release. I discourage the use of the trigger finger to hit the slide release as this can break down the shooting grip.
6. You will need more than a 40 minute lesson on the combat mindset to perform in a firefight. Positive thinking won't get you through either and calling your support side your other strong side wont help when being shot at! Building solid neural pathways by performing the same techniques over and over again is the only proven way to help performance in a firefight.
For any clarification on this subject feel free to PM or email me.
Take care.
Gonzales also strips the mags from the gun before getting a fresh one in and running the charging handle.
video (http://youtu.be/kv5epCk5KRY)
3. The slide stop/slide release: This technique is the fastest method of returning the slide into battery. However, it does rely on perfect technique to insert the magazine fully then release the slide with the master thumb. Causing 'auto-forwarding' may induce a failure to feed. Auto-forwarding is caused by poor technique.
[
I note that, on occasion (one out of five times, maybe), firmly seating the magazine on my M&P 9L (DCAEK+RAM) causes the slide to auto-forward. I'm pretty confident I'm not accidentally hitting the slide release, but what other aspects of my technique might be causing this?
Jason Falla
08-22-11, 08:35
I note that, on occasion (one out of five times, maybe), firmly seating the magazine on my M&P 9L (DCAEK+RAM) causes the slide to auto-forward. I'm pretty confident I'm not accidentally hitting the slide release, but what other aspects of my technique might be causing this?
There are two distinct issues at hand when looking at why 'auto-forwarding' occurs.
1. Weapon Design: There are some model weapons that tend to 'auto-forward' more than others. Two common models are the Beretta M9 and the S&W M&P. 'Auto-Forwarding' was never a design feature of these weapons and it is actually seen as a flaw in the design of the weapon.
2. Technique: I rarely see students performing the reload drill correctly on our training courses. Even after receiving the lesson on reloading, students revert to their old tricks of hammering the magazine home with the slide to the rear. This is more noticeable when performing this drill under stress. This is a major training scar and a huge contributing factor of 'auto-forwarding'.
Observations:
1. The harder you insert the magazine, the higher probability of 'auto-forwarding'.
2. I don't believe that the angle of insertion has anything to do with 'auto-forwarding'. The magazine can only go in on one angle!
3. If you fail to insert the magazine correctly you increase your chances of 'auto-forwarding' occurring.
CTS Training tip:
When performing the reload drill, bring the new magazine to the mag well quickly. Ensure that the weapon is in the correct position, palm up and observing the inside edge of the mag well. Prior to inserting the new magazine, say 'STOP' and stop all movement completely. Then insert the magazine with firm pressure. DOT NOT HIT THE BASE OF THE MAGAZINE AGAIN!
Our Combat Training System is the most advanced training in weapons manipulations. The information contained within CTS has been designed, developed, tested and evaluated by our SME's, all of whom are former Tier 1 members of Australian and U.S SOCOM(D).
We do not teach, nor do we advocate auto-forwarding as a method of returning the slide into battery. We analysis the factors of why it occurs and teach students how to prevent it!
Excellent post Jason and thanks for the input.
C4
Auto forwarding doesn't happen when I insert mags into my P229, nor on my Glock 19, nor on any other pistol I shoot. Must be a combination of this particular weapon and inserting the mags too hard. I'll have to work on lightening up a little. The "stop at insertion" tip is a great tool for me to try to stop this.
Jeff Franz
08-22-11, 10:34
Of all the pistols I shoot, my M&P is the only one that seems to autoforward. Once upon I time, I thought it was a "bonus" until I had several instances running drills or shooting in competitions a few months ago when it failed to pick up a round and I was forced to rack the slide. Since that time, I have worked hard to train myself not to allow that to happen. After taking Jason's class in WV earlier this month, the hard "stop" while inserting the magazine has helped quite a bit. It has also smoothed out my reloads a bit and made them faster, rather than slower as one would think (it's only a split-second pause).
To add to the overall discussion, I was once upon a time a huge proponent of the overhand rack because of the whole "gross motor skill" thing. While training with NCPatrolAR, he suggested I try the support thumb method. I have also heard from many other top instructors, such as Jason, a good rationale why the motor skill arguement has some holes. Now that I have practiced the technique for several months, it has become second nature and quite a bit faster in the "stress" of competition or with the "stress" of the shot timer when running drills. I'm now a believer. It doesn't mean I can't rack or slingshot the gun if something goes wrong - they're still "tools in the toolbox." It's just not my default anymore. It goes to show that no matter how much you have shot or trained in the past, there is always something to learn from quality instruction.
Mauser KAR98K
08-23-11, 00:49
For me, slide release. If'en, and by a long shot, but if'en I'm in a bad firefight with a pistol, and I'm tacking rounds down range, a certain piece of the weapon is going to get hot. I know adrenalin will be pumping, but I really don't want to scorch my hand while putting my weapon back in battery. Just cross my fingers I don't have a malfunction. But still...that is a very big if'en.
Second: like grant posted, it is quicker, and you support hand is back where it is suppose to be when your back in the game.
Since this thread started, I've taken two pistol courses and one carbine course. I've concluded that, so far, overhand slide release for pistols continues to meet my needs best. On my AR15 however, I've switched (as instructed) from hitting the ping-pong paddle with my palm to hooking the charging hand with my support hand index finger.
My M&P 9L continues to auto-forward on mag insertion fairly often, but lately I've been shooting a Glock 19 quite a bit and on that pistol I have yet to see that happen.
NeoNeanderthal
08-18-12, 10:47
Since this thread started, I've taken two pistol courses and one carbine course. I've concluded that, so far, overhand slide release for pistols continues to meet my needs best. On my AR15 however, I've switched (as instructed) from hitting the ping-pong paddle with my palm to hooking the charging hand with my support hand index finger.
Why the hell are you running the charging handle on your AR for reloads??!?
The difference in time between slidelock vs slide racking on a handgun is there, but minimal.
However, the difference between ping pong vs running the charging handle on your AR is quite significant!!
Who told you that you needed to run the charging handle on your AR? Not only is that way slower but it is also less RELIABLE.
Even old school guys like clint smith say "The charging handle is not your friend, stay away from it." I've seen plenty of students ride that thing forward and prevent the gun from going into battery. Or even worse ride it, panic, try to rack it again but short stroke it then cause a double feed.
I recently took a larry vickers class and he would throw a fit if he saw someone using the charging handle on the AR for reloads. I mean running the slide on a handgun is acceptable but there is no reason to do it on an AR.
Why the hell are you running the charging handle on your AR for reloads??!?
The difference in time between slidelock vs slide racking on a handgun is there, but minimal.
However, the difference between ping pong vs running the charging handle on your AR is quite significant!!
Who told you that you needed to run the charging handle on your AR? Not only is that way slower but it is also less RELIABLE.
Even old school guys like clint smith say "The charging handle is not your friend, stay away from it." I've seen plenty of students ride that thing forward and prevent the gun from going into battery. Or even worse ride it, panic, try to rack it again but short stroke it then cause a double feed.
I recently took a larry vickers class and he would throw a fit if he saw someone using the charging handle on the AR for reloads. I mean running the slide on a handgun is acceptable but there is no reason to do it on an AR.
Pretty emotional issue, huh? That continues to amaze me.
I was taught it as a preferable alternative, found it to work well for me. If I ever take a course from Larry Vickers (or you), maybe I'd be persuaded otherwise.
I prefer the overhand, and when I am helping people learn to handle an automatic pistol it is what I encourage.
Mostly because it is the same motion that clears the gun or clears a malfunction, and it naturally brings your gun to the high compressed ready where it should be when you aren't squeezing the trigger. I look for simplicity and consistency in all combat related skills.
I do feel that the slide stop/release is terribly wrong as long as you do it with a consistent motion with the gun closer to the body.
I think the "slingshot" method is bad because it begs you to push the gun away from your body and is a slower recovery.
[QUOTE=NeoNeanderthal;1372832]Why the hell are you running the charging handle on your AR for reloads??!?QUOTE]
As was previously stated in the thread, Jeff Gonzales teaches it. Hmac may have trained with TRICON and preferred that method.
I have found that when using a redi-mag, running the charging handle is easier and more reliable for me.
I have taken several LAV classes and never seen him throw a fit over guys doing that (or anything else that is not unsafe for that matter). Obviously, YMMV.
[QUOTE=NeoNeanderthal;1372832]Why the hell are you running the charging handle on your AR for reloads??!?QUOTE]
As was previously stated in the thread, Jeff Gonzales teaches it. Hmac may have trained with TRICON and preferred that method.
I have found that when using a redi-mag, running the charging handle is easier and more reliable for me.
I have taken several LAV classes and never seen him throw a fit over guys doing that (or anything else that is not unsafe for that matter). Obviously, YMMV.
Yes, TRICON CC2 it was, last October. Pretty good course. I learned a lot.
NeoNeanderthal
08-18-12, 11:58
I have found that when using a redi-mag, running the charging handle is easier and more reliable for me.
A ha! I never thought of that (I've never run a redi-mag). Very interesting.
"Throw a fit" was probably not a good choice of words on my part. "Give the shooter a ton of shit." Would be more accurate.
I am far from perfect, and received some shit when i did a magpul style chamber check as part of my reload. I got an earful for that. :-)
Failure2Stop
08-18-12, 12:04
Do what you want to do, but I have found through doing this a lot that there is distinct speed increase in using the bolt release (I don't play table tennis with my AR) and slide release (slide stop for those of us that carry Glocks) as long as the user can operate them.
I have seen a lot more user induces stoppages from running the CH for an AR reload than from simply hitting the bolt release. Doesn't make it wrong, it is still an option, but I don't use or recommend it.
Using the slide release as a primary method of releasing the slide doesn't make it the only way. If you miss the slide release, just rack the slide instead. There is a demonstrable .25 to .5 second penalty for using a grab and rack instead of a slide release. That's one well aimed shot or 2 to 3 rapid shots.
The argument that not all pistols have a slide release is pretty weak. Not all pistols have a magazine release by the trigger guard, they don't all have the same trigger, they have different sized magazines, hell, some of them are revolvers, and are completely different. Do I have to tilt my 1911 upward and tap on the recoil spring because that's the way you reload a 340PD?
I don't change gears in an automatic Acura because I have to in a standard transmission F250. I choose to use the pieces of the gun that help win the fight.
Also, if I just picked up a firearm and don't have enough time to even verify the general type, where did I get the magazines that I am going to reload with? I can tell if a pistol has a slide release (which 99% do) in about .2 seconds with just my thumb, well before the need to reload will arise. And even if I don't, during the reload I place my thumb on the slide release as soon as the magazine drops, if I don't feel it then I'll just use a rack to get the gun up.
However, the points are moot if the user cannot reach or possess the physical strength to use those controls. In those cases, a degraded efficiency level of operation is often needed.
I prefer to know several ways to work the gun, because you never know when you will need to know. However, the bulk of my work goes to the most likely, highest payoff skills.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
NeoNeanderthal
08-18-12, 12:04
Hmac or JEL458,
Besides the redi-mag what makes this technique better then using your support hand thumb (as a right handed shooter) to hit the pingpong paddle? Just curious as to the explanation he offers, it makes no sense to me.
Hmac or JEL458,
Besides the redi-mag what makes this technique better then using your support hand thumb (as a right handed shooter) to hit the pingpong paddle? Just curious as to the explanation he offers, it makes no sense to me.
"Better" in an absolute sense is an arguable point, as demonstrated by this thread, and the fact that there does not appear to be universal agreement even among experienced trainers and combat veterans. "Better for me" is what I care about, and represents the sense that I have a more natural hand motion, using a manipulation that duplicates a component of the way I've been taught to address a variety of malfunctions. IIRC, that's at least one reason why Jeff Gonzales thinks it's "better". In my use, and for my needs, any speed advantage is not an overriding concern.
I have seen a lot more user induces stoppages from running the CH for an AR reload than from simply hitting the bolt release. Doesn't make it wrong, it is still an option, but I don't use or recommend it.
Using the slide release as a primary method of releasing the slide doesn't make it the only way. If you miss the slide release, just rack the slide instead.Agreed on both points made here.
Neo,
Now LAV giving people a ton of shit, I did witness! It was all in good fun of course.
It's been a while, but IIRC, Jeff's reasoning was for consistency in manipulations. I am not saying that I agree 100% with the notion, but neither am I in a place to disagree with one as experienced as he is. I was simply answering what I thought was probably the reason why Hmac employed the technique.
I have been so fortunate to have trained with many of the big name trainers and I personally saw the most gain from Jeff's rifle class, as far as my weapon handling and manipulations go. As always, YMMV.
Hmac said it well; better is arguable. I personally think that the bolt release is usually better, but it can be situationally dependent.
[QUOTE=Failure2Stop;1372876] Using the slide release as a primary method of releasing the slide doesn't make it the only way. If you miss the slide release, just rack the slide instead. There is a demonstrable .25 to .5 second penalty for using a grab and rack instead of a slide release. That's one well aimed shot or 2 to 3 rapid shots......................I prefer to know several ways to work the gun, because you never know when you will need to know. However, the bulk of my work goes to the most likely, highest payoff skills. QUOTE]
I believe that you expressed this perfectly here. I use the slide release on my hand guns and the bolt release on ARs. That said, I use a Redi-Mag/Redi-Mod on my guns and depending on the generation, the bolt release can be much less accessible, especially with gloved hands. I like having multiple methods to get the job done. Like you wrote, if I find myself fumble-f*cking for the bolt release, I swing up and run the charging handle. I have never run into that issue with the slide-release on a hand gun.
Here is some basic food for thought. These are only my results and they are quite telling. Of course reliability is key and I am pretty much on par with reliability with any of these methods, but the key difference is noted in times. I will also add that many shooters will often see a larger disparity in their own times based on their own skill levels, so differences in times may be much longer. If I am in a fight for my life and I can perform any of the techniques with similar reliability, I am going for the fastest method available to stay in the fight.
Pistol - Start position - high compressed ready. Average of 3 times from buzzer, reload to second shot. I am just as reliable without a gloved hand on all techniques. I also note that on average, I am just as fast doing a slide lock reload with a slide stop release as I am doing a pure speed reload.
Pistol Reload Comparison - Glock 17 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFyFAgugiU)
- Primary hand thumb on slide stop = 1.59 sec
- Support hand thumb on slide stop = 2.09 sec
- Slide Lock reload, Overhand release = 2.12 sec
- Slide lock reload, sling shot release = 2.23 sec
- Speed reload = 1.59 sec
Rifle - I do not do a charging handle release in the video, as quite frankly I do not support it as a method. However I am notably slower by .3-.4 seconds using the charging handle than releasing the bolt with the support thumb. Average of 3 times.
Rifle Reload Comparison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCP7t3eRROs)
- Bolt release, support thumb = 2.76 sec
- BAD lever = 2.41 sec
- Charging handle (not shown in video) averages = in the 3 second flat range, which is about the same time if I rip the mag out of the weapon.
Again not one thing works for everyone, but the results are none the less quite telling.
when i did a magpul style chamber check as part of my reload. I got an earful for that. :-)
Just FWIW, the whole chamber check/diagnostic reload/sling your mag thing is no longer a part of any aspect of the Magpul curriculum.
Surf, while I could remark on mags falling free when on a flat range and not operating under duress, I have to congratulate you on at least giving us something more or less empirical to work with rather than opining/speculating on what's faster: this, that or the other technique.
While I don't prefer BAD levers as they change the manual of arms I've long since grown accustomed to, with a devotion to getting the requisite reps in, they can be a useful device as you illustrated in your videos.
having gone from sling shot to slide stop, I have found that not only do I get the gun back into battery slightly faster, but the transition back into proper grip is quite a bit faster if using the slide stop method.
I also used the BAD lever for about a year, while it does slightly increase the speed on returning the rifle into battery, it also increases the chance of accidentally sending the bolt home while trying to perform fast reloads.
the marginal time savings of the BAD lever is offset by the number of accidental bolt releases, IMO of course.
The times that Surf posted are almost the same times me and a friend came up with while testing these various techniques a few weeks ago.
One more thing I will throw in, we also tested our fastest possible AR reloads versus transitioning to pistol. No matter how fast we could reload the rifle, we found the transition to pistol to be about 1 second faster, YMMV.
NeoNeanderthal
08-18-12, 20:20
Just FWIW, the whole chamber check/diagnostic reload/sling your mag thing is no longer a part of any aspect of the Magpul curriculum.
Check. Very interesting, I did not know that.
On my AR15 however, I've switched (as instructed) from hitting the ping-pong paddle with my palm to hooking the charging hand with my support hand index finger.
I just completed a carbine class with Hackathorn. One of the discussions was about being able to figure out if a person has good weapon handling skills. People that take their hand off the rear group to run the charging handle, have no idea what they are doing. People that run the charging handle with their support hand (instead of using the bolt catch), aren't far off.
While hitting the bolt catch with your palm isn't the end of the world, it is still wrong and or less than optimal.
So try using your thumb (on your support hand) to release the bolt. It is faster AND less likely to cause a malfunction (by short stroking the charging handle).
C4
Just FWIW, the whole chamber check/diagnostic reload/sling your mag thing is no longer a part of any aspect of the Magpul curriculum.
Good.
C4
I just completed a carbine class with Hackathorn. One of the discussions was about being able to figure out if a person has good weapon handling skills. People that take their hand off the rear group to run the charging handle, have no idea what they are doing. People that run the charging handle with their support hand (instead of using the bolt catch), aren't far off.
While hitting the bolt catch with your palm isn't the end of the world, it is still wrong and or less than optimal.
I appreciate hearing Hackathorn's opinion. I'm going to stick with the charging handle routine for the time being...see how it works out over the next few thousand rounds. I can always switch back if it doesn't meet my needs.
I just completed a carbine class with Hackathorn. One of the discussions was about being able to figure out if a person has good weapon handling skills. People that take their hand off the rear group to run the charging handle, have no idea what they are doing. People that run the charging handle with their support hand (instead of using the bolt catch), aren't far off.
C4
Grant,
I agree that using the bolt release is usually the best option. But with all due respect to both you and the TDL, Paul Howe uses his firing hand to run the charging handle when loading and as has been stated ad nauseum, Jeff Gonzales teaches to use the support hand to run the CH during reloads. To say that either of those guys don't know what that are doing is an absolute statement (and an absurd one at that), similar to what you and others were arguing against in the recent thread about CFS®.
I added the ® just for theblackknight. It cracked me up that he kept using it throughout his other responses.
Grant,
I agree that using the bolt release is usually the best option. But with all due respect to both you and the TDL, Paul Howe uses his firing hand to run the charging handle when loading and as has been stated ad nauseum, Jeff Gonzales teaches to use the support hand to run the CH during reloads. To say that either of those guys don't know what that are doing is an absolute statement (and an absurd one at that), similar to what you and others were arguing against in the recent thread about CFS® thread.
Heh heh.
Is there a reason why is this topic was dredged back up? It seems as if you're tempting to validate your techniques. I think it's been stated enough times use whatever works for you obviously you find those other methods are better. Your little "he he" comment seems a little childish don't you think?
Heh heh.
"The whole chamber check/diagnostic reload/sling your mag thing is no longer a part of any aspect of the Magpul curriculum."
I find the chamber check useful when training entry level shooters who have been conditioned to transition, to their secondary weapon, by drills that require them to fire 2 rounds, with the rifle, each and every time. They are issued magazines with random round counts and I find it makes them aware that there is in fact a reason to transition.
So...I am not or never have dismissed the chamber check and I know it's received a lot of criticism but, I am curious from an Instructor standpoint why it was taken out of the Magpul curriculum?
-Thank you.
Your little "he he" comment seems a little childish don't you think?
Yeah, probably a little childish. I apologize for that. As to resurrecting the thread, I do find the subsequent comments useful, minus the dogma. I'd love to take a carbine course from F2S someday.
Might be a dead subject but with efficiency aside I think its just unnerving to use the CH to release the bolt on an AR. Maybe if it reciprocated and just needed a tug back for the bolt holdup to drop it would not but as it is with that long unresistant draw stroke it feels like something is broken. So bolt release or a BAD, even if in a hypothetical situation where using the CH is just as efficient.
Something about no resistance just seems wrong.
NCPatrolAR
08-19-12, 16:44
Grant,
I agree that using the bolt release is usually the best option. But with all due respect to both you and the TDL, Paul Howe uses his firing hand to run the charging handle when loading and as has been stated ad nauseum, Jeff Gonzales teaches to use the support hand to run the CH during reloads. To say that either of those guys don't know what that are doing is an absolute statement (and an absurd one at that), similar to what you and others were arguing against in the recent thread about CFS®.
I added the ® just for theblackknight. It cracked me up that he kept using it throughout his other responses.
It's been a while since I've trained with Paul, but I believe he uses his dominant hand on the charging handle only during initial loading of the carbine, not during emergency reloads (which is what Ken was most likely talking about).
If I am in a fight for my life and I can perform any of the techniques with similar reliability, I am going for the fastest method available to stay in the fight.
Pistol - Start position - high compressed ready. Average of 3 times from buzzer, reload to second shot. I am just as reliable without a gloved hand on all techniques. I also note that on average, I am just as fast doing a slide lock reload with a slide stop release as I am doing a pure speed reload.
Pistol Reload Comparison - Glock 17 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFyFAgugiU)
- Primary hand thumb on slide stop = 1.59 sec
- Support hand thumb on slide stop = 2.09 sec
- Slide Lock reload, Overhand release = 2.12 sec
- Slide lock reload, sling shot release = 2.23 sec
- Speed reload = 1.59 sec
I use mostly a Glock 17 & 34. The G17 has the identical factory extended slide and magazine releases and trigger as the G34.
I use the strong hand thumb to release the slide and like your times above it's over half a second faster than the other methods. For me it's utterly reliable, consistent and fast.
As a side note, we tried these to do an overall comparison with the CFS reload method where they have the pistol tucked in for reload and perform an overhand release. The Combat Focus Shooting reload method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzjC-b4TfjI) is at least a second slower than using right thumb for slide release after bringing the pistol to your workspace slightly below your face rather than tucked in.
A second is an eternity...
NeoNeanderthal
08-19-12, 18:26
Just FWIW, the whole chamber check/diagnostic reload/sling your mag thing is no longer a part of any aspect of the Magpul curriculum.
I'm also interested to know why this is.
I was taught the overhand slide release as well, I do believe in the first Vicker's class I attended, some wheres around 2004, did fix this, all the while I was made fun of ... but I was damn fast doing it.
A few of reasons I was taught it in the first place:
1.) (The most popular) In a cold climate or coming out of the water you may not have the fine motor skills you would need to manipulate the slide release. (add to that heavy gloves).
If you write this off as hearsay then you have not operated your weapon in a cold enough environment.
2.) It is easier to accomplish with Night Vision.
4.) With people in their first several real life contacts involving an exchange of gunfire, especially if they had to resort to their secondary, the slide pull and release is much easier to accomplish when in mental vapor lock.
3.) And finally... it is an artifact of reloading other weapons, where pulling the bolt to the rear fully and allowing it to charge the weapon was the most reliable way to do business. ( one way for all weapons, indiscriminate of the weapon system ).
Does it still have its place... hell yes, but if you are just doing range work it is not something you need to concern yourself with.
I'm also interested to know why this is.
wait, so my Magpul dvd set is no good anymore? :cray:
It's been a while since I've trained with Paul, but I believe he uses his dominant hand on the charging handle only during initial loading of the carbine, not during emergency reloads (which is what Ken was most likely talking about).
You are correct and that is what I was (not very clearly) referring to. Not during reloads, just initial load.
I was taught the slide release as well, I do believe in the first Vicker's class I attended, some wheres around 2004, did fix this, all the while I was made fun of ... but I was damn fast doing it.
A few of reasons I was taught it in the first place:
1.) (The most popular) In a cold climate or coming out of the water you may not have the fine motor skills you would need to manipulate the slide release. (add to that heavy gloves).
If you write this off as hearsay then you have not operated your weapon in a cold enough environment.
2.) It is easier to accomplish with Night Vision.
4.) With people in their first several real life contacts involving an exchange of gunfire, especially if they had to resort to their secondary, the slide pull and release is much easier to accomplish when in mental vapor lock.
3.) And finally... it is an artifact of reloading other weapons, where pulling the bolt to the rear fully and allowing it to charge the weapon was the most reliable way to do business. ( one way for all weapons, indiscriminate of the weapon system ).
Does it still have its place... hell yes, but if you are just doing range work it is not something you need to concern yourself with.
Sir,
Are you referring to using the slide release on a pistol or running the charging handle on the rifle? Thanks in advance for the clarification.
Just FWIW, the whole chamber check/diagnostic reload/sling your mag thing is no longer a part of any aspect of the Magpul curriculum.
You mean with the carbine where the gun runs dry and you hit the mag release and flick the gun to the right and look at the mag well?
Sir,
Are you referring to using the slide release on a pistol or running the charging handle on the rifle? Thanks in advance for the clarification.
Hahah, my bad, I will edit to make clear, I d**ked that one up good ... I was talking about the overhand for the pistol.
Hopefully, that single change will answer your question.
Otherwise, it is, as refereed to in #4, consistent with all auto platforms ... pistol, rifle, machine gun, grenade launcher. Biggest issue with all platforms that most newer shooters tend to "milk" the charging mechanism, meaning a lot of trainers are teaching the masses the bolt release mechanism as a more reliable way to do business, if it is available on that weapon system, especially with those that get less time behind the trigger with that weapon system.
Grant,
I agree that using the bolt release is usually the best option. But with all due respect to both you and the TDL, Paul Howe uses his firing hand to run the charging handle when loading and as has been stated ad nauseum, Jeff Gonzales teaches to use the support hand to run the CH during reloads. To say that either of those guys don't know what that are doing is an absolute statement (and an absurd one at that), similar to what you and others were arguing against in the recent thread about CFS®.
I added the ® just for theblackknight. It cracked me up that he kept using it throughout his other responses.
Is it an "OK" way to release the bolt? Sure. Is it optimal? No. Same deal with the over hand slide release for a pistol. Does it work? Yes. Is it the fastest way? No and is more prone to creating a malfunction.
My guess for why trainers teach it is because they believe that using the same methods across the boards (consistency) is the best bet. The thought is that under stress, you won't be able to find the bolt catch on an AR or the slide release on a pistol. If this is true, you also won't be able find the mag release on either gun (which is smaller). Where does it end?
Lastly, many firearms training companies are stuck in 1990. If instructors and training companies do not constantly re-evaluate what they are doing, they will always be behind everyone else.
In the end, do what you like, but make sure to try ALL methods (under time like SURF did) and then decide (instead of just blindly following a certain way).
C4
"The whole chamber check/diagnostic reload/sling your mag thing is no longer a part of any aspect of the Magpul curriculum."
I find the chamber check useful when training entry level shooters who have been conditioned to transition, to their secondary weapon, by drills that require them to fire 2 rounds, with the rifle, each and every time. They are issued magazines with random round counts and I find it makes them aware that there is in fact a reason to transition.
So...I am not or never have dismissed the chamber check and I know it's received a lot of criticism but, I am curious from an Instructor standpoint why it was taken out of the Magpul curriculum?
-Thank you.
How does that chamber check thing work out for you in the dark?? Do you pull out a flashlight and look into the chamber??
To be brutally honest, when I watch people do this, they NEVER actually look in the chamber (as they do it way to fast to actually see anything).
C4
Dont want to hijack, but...Yep...can't see anything in the dark, and it's a useless, time-wasting step anyway.
How does that chamber check thing work out for you in the dark?? Do you pull out a flashlight and look into the chamber??
No. I do my transition drills during the day. I only use it as an instructional tool, for transitions, what the individual shooter does after receiving instruction is really up to them.
"it's a useless, time-wasting step"
Noted. Thank you.
The chamber check is out of style now?
****! Gun guys are worse than bitches when it comes to changing fads! :blink:
The chamber check left with the previous regime. Steve was never really a fan and quit doing it when C left, and it certainly isn't coming back on my watch. Less "diagnostic" stuff = better, IMHO. The new paradigm is outlined on the updated mission page on the MD site.
To bring it back to the OP, we demo both slide release/stop and overhand, talk about the pros and cons, and recommend overhand. I use overhand.
I would like to add that there are good arguments for doing things the same way across the board ie, always use an overhand release. In fact, the overhand is the method that I predominantly teach my student base, again as they are mostly gloved. Even when I run full finger gloves I will more often than not use the overhand also. However I will mention that I am not always rolling with gloves or that my primary gloves are missing some fingers and I will opt to use a slide stop release with the primary hand. Heck I am so messed up that when I switch to a 1911 I will use the support hand thumb release.
I understand the argument of commonality and consistency thing, but I do believe that a highly skilled shooter can understand the differences and seamlessly move from one technique to the next without really thinking about it and where there is no loss in time or delay in thinking "well what type of a release am I going to use here?" I often butt heads with "Hicks" and his law, but that is another story. We like to promote thinkers as well as do'ers. If I, or my guys, cannot understand that I need to go to an overhand release because I am wearing gloves because I have some issues perhaps with loss of dexterity or tactile feel, then maybe they shouldn't be in that stack to begin with. Again, I will say that the overhand is the predominant method that I teach, but it is not however my preferred method across the board.
Surf, while I could remark on mags falling free when on a flat range and not operating under duress, I have to congratulate you on at least giving us something more or less empirical to work with rather than opining/speculating on what's faster: this, that or the other technique.
While I don't prefer BAD levers as they change the manual of arms I've long since grown accustomed to, with a devotion to getting the requisite reps in, they can be a useful device as you illustrated in your videos.I get you on the flat range thing, but it is a baseline and we can translate the findings to other drills, dynamic situations etc... I have gone back to pretty simple with my rifle set ups, but I am still a big fan of the BAD. I do train quite a bit without it however as I teach with the same set ups as students, so I don't have too much issues with manual of arms. I will readily admit that I shoot a lot and am doing this full time year round, non-stop.
having gone from sling shot to slide stop, I have found that not only do I get the gun back into battery slightly faster, but the transition back into proper grip is quite a bit faster if using the slide stop method.
I also used the BAD lever for about a year, while it does slightly increase the speed on returning the rifle into battery, it also increases the chance of accidentally sending the bolt home while trying to perform fast reloads.
the marginal time savings of the BAD lever is offset by the number of accidental bolt releases, IMO of course.
The times that Surf posted are almost the same times me and a friend came up with while testing these various techniques a few weeks ago.
One more thing I will throw in, we also tested our fastest possible AR reloads versus transitioning to pistol. No matter how fast we could reload the rifle, we found the transition to pistol to be about 1 second faster, YMMV.Yes, reacquiring your full firing grip is a big part of the time issue with the methods. As noted a good shooter will see virtually no time differences between a slide stop release with the primary hand and a pure speed reload.
As for the BAD lever, I always preach that if does not work on your rifle don't run it. Simple as that. I will also note that the bolt tripping and going back into battery is not really one of my issues provided that it isn't just tripping when you are attempting to do an emergency type of reload.
My findings are exactly the same when it comes to transitioning to the pistol. All of our guys roll with pistols and they determine if the circumstance favors a transition to pistol or a reload of the rifle. Last week we ended a carbine training phase and that point was hit home hard when we had 9 guys on the line at the 10 yard line. It was a set round count drill to force a transition at the same time for all shooters. One guy neglected to transition and performed a rifle reload. All 8 others on the line finished a multiple round pistol engagement before he got his rifle reloaded. On the plus side, he won't ever forget that lesson.
I use mostly a Glock 17 & 34. The G17 has the identical factory extended slide and magazine releases and trigger as the G34.
I use the strong hand thumb to release the slide and like your times above it's over half a second faster than the other methods. For me it's utterly reliable, consistent and fast.
As a side note, we tried these to do an overall comparison with the CFS reload method where they have the pistol tucked in for reload and perform an overhand release. The Combat Focus Shooting reload method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzjC-b4TfjI) is at least a second slower than using right thumb for slide release after bringing the pistol to your workspace slightly below your face rather than tucked in.
A second is an eternity...Try doing that type of a reload where you never glimpse at your magwell to watch the mag into the magwell and do it under force on force with say SIMS ammunition. Guys will literally look like monkeys ****ing a football trying to pull off that type of reload, even when they get to cover and perform it. If you note in that video, under a non pressure, step by step demonstration, he actually does not get a good clean first insertion. Try that under stress with lead flying.
The chamber check left with the previous regime. Steve was never really a fan and quit doing it when C left, and it certainly isn't coming back on my watch. Less "diagnostic" stuff = better, IMHO. The new paradigm is outlined on the updated mission page on the MD site.
To bring it back to the OP, we demo both slide release/stop and overhand, talk about the pros and cons, and recommend overhand. I use overhand.Good to hear. I have an awesome student in my course right now, no doubt one of the top shooters. He came through your old courses twice and has some serious habits that I am currently fixing. The good thing is that he truly gets it, not just because he is trying to appease me, but the bad thing is that it is an absolute bitch to try and break. ;)
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