View Full Version : AAR Vickers Tactical / LMS Defense 4 day Pistol - Rifle Course
John Chapman
11-03-07, 11:07
In October 2007, LMS Defense brought Larry Vickers to San Jose for four days of tactical pistol and carbine training. Larry’s reputation for solid, relevant training ensured a strong turnout, with 17 students in the class.
The class was a mix of novice shooters, experienced weapon handlers, and armed professionals. The prevailing attitude of the class was very positive and open-minded. I noticed the armed professionals on several occasions offering good, quiet advice to the novice shooters; there were no “cool guy” cliques in this class.
Larry Vickers, as expected, was a pro from the start. He was prepared to teach from the get-go, and was able to tailor the course to fit the exact mix of students in the course. I was impressed watching Larry customize the course on the fly as the needs of the class members dictated. I have always been frustrated with trainers who teach a fixed curriculum regardless of student needs; Larry was a pro at quickly identifying ability levels and running drills appropriate to the situation.
Day one began with the root of pistol shooting, trigger control. Larry ran several drills designed to teach the students how to train themselves after the class. We then moved onto sight picture, weapons manipulation, and trigger reset. After conducting a milestone drill (a walk back competition) to test skills taught to this point, we moved onto ready positions and turns. We ended the day with another competition and debrief. I got a lot out of the fundamentals hammered on day one.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/mountaincop/Line2.jpg
Day two began with a skills re-set and review. We then worked on a sane, well thought out set of malfunction drills. Again, students were given the tools and tips to take these drills and incorporate them into their personal training time. I am a strong believer that we do not pay to go to training in order to be trained, but to learn how to train ourselves. After another competition and milestone drill, we moved on to shooting the pistol on the move for the remainder of the day. I found Larry’s treatment of this subject logical, simple and complete.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/mountaincop/john1.jpg
The Carbine course started on day 3 with everyone’s favorite, zeroing. Just a note on this subject: when you know you will be taking a rifle or carbine course, please go to the range and zero your weapon system. Please.
Once this painful process was complete, Larry moved us into carbine fundamentals and marksmanship. I liked Larry’s emphasis on distance shooting under time. We worked with the carbine out to 100 meters, off both shoulders, learning to take advantage of the distance the system’s accuracy allowed us. The day was punctuated by competitions and milestone drills which tested our ability to effectively manage the weapon under mild stress.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/mountaincop/Larryteachingrifle.jpg
At the end of day 3, we had the pleasure of a presentation from Mr. Freddie Blish of Aimpoint. Mr. Blish came to us fresh from his appearance on the cover of this month’s SWAT magazine, and was gracious enough to give a concise presentation and answer cogent questions about the Aimpoint family of combat optics. Several students also had the opportunity to use some of Aimpoint’s newest products in class (the Micro Aimpoint and the Comp M4) thanks to Mr. Blish.
Freddie also held his own in the course…….
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/mountaincop/Freddiescaning.jpg
Day 4 began with a detailed discussion and show and tell regarding the HK 416 5.56mm carbine. As you already know, Larry was deeply involved in the development of the system; and getting this lecture from him was well worth everyone’s time. Many internet rumors and other assorted BS stories were dispelled.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/mountaincop/gassystem416.jpg
When we hit the range for day 4, we were held to account for everything we learned the day before through a skill set drill. We then moved onto malfunction drills (including the “prom night” maneuver) and transitions. I was very happy to see a detailed explanation of the appropriate times for each (i.e. Inside 25 meters transition to your pistol and finish the fight; and outside 25 yards fix the carbine). I noted Larry took care to encourage the proper response based on distance to the target, and did not set the students up for later failure by creating artificial circumstances on the range (e.g. teaching all malfunction drills outside 25 meters).
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/mountaincop/malfunctionsetup416.jpg
After another competition and lunch, we began moving with the carbine. Several simple drills were used to good effect, and much expanding of horizons took place with some of the newer shooters. The day ended with a difficult but realistic qualification drill which brought together all of the skills we had been working on for 4 full days.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/mountaincop/classpic-5.jpg
In conclusion, I found Larry Vickers to be a highly relevant and capable instructor. His real-world experience and many years of teaching Tier 1 units to fight are an asset too valuable to pass up if you ever have an opportunity to train with him. I found the combination of repition, competitions and the shot timer were very effective as a teaching methodology; and observed their use to great effect throughout the course.
We at LMS Defense will be bringing Larry out for several more courses in 2008, including his 1911 builder’s course in Reno, NV; and another 4 day pistol-carbine package in Seattle, WA. Check our website (www.lmsdefense.com) or Larry’s (www.vickerstactical.com) for dates to be announced soon.
John_Wayne777
11-03-07, 12:30
Those walkback drills are a bastard....:mad:
:D
Patrick Aherne
11-03-07, 15:01
I had an excellent time in this class and learned much. Larry's treatment of trigger control is different than any other explanation of the "Why?" it is so important. His three dummy and ball drills are absolutely fantastic.
Larry's emphasis on time and accuracy drills, along with the walkbacks, reinforce the skills he teaches you. I must say that I shot like the biggest tool in the class; "El Snatcho" is my constant companion.
One thing that doesn't come through in the pictures is Larry's sense of humor: I think we are going to collaborate on a Pat Aherne Signature Model Short-Bus Tactical Single Point Sling, complete with green zip-ties and possibly some duct tape! Seriously, after this class, I called up Grant and ordered the Vickers Two Point Sling without the Fas-tex buckles. I tossed my single point in the trash.
Larry is definitely worth spending your training dollars on and I would take the exact same class over again.
Thanks to Chappy and LMS Defense for hosting LAV, it found it extremely worthwhile.
Those walkback drills are a bastard....:mad:
:D
Whats a walk back drill?
[ Seriously, after this class, I called up Grant and ordered the Vickers Two Point Sling without the Fas-tex buckles. I tossed my single point in the trash.
Larry is definitely worth spending your training dollars on and I would take the exact same class over again.
Why, without the fastex buckles? What was Mr. Vickers opinion on the set up. I see how he has his set up, simple and rugged.....
I appreciate your answer.
Jack
Larry Vickers
11-04-07, 19:27
Thanx to John and LMS for hosting me and thanx to Cali class for a good group of guys - everytime I go to Cali the class is great; I am sure it is because they realize how valuable our 2nd admendment rights are in their embattled state
Thanx to Freddie Blish stopping by on behalf of Aimpoint - as always with the latest Aimpoint goodies - and shooting well I might add
A keen eye will spot the first prototype Vickers padded sling on my 416 - Ashley of BFG and I are in close communication on it; we are going to narrow the pad for the carbine version but other than that I think it is right on the money; stand by for more info
Looking forward to more classes with the LMS crew
Cheers
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Cool... looking forward to it the sling.
Looks like it was a terrific class.
Y-
Looks like a great class, thanks for the AAR.
Rugger, a walk back is where you have the guys take a shot from the low ready at a target. Those who make their hits get to walk back, increasing the distance to the target, and then shoot again. Repeat the walk back, increasing distance.
This continues until the last guy who was hitting his target misses.
Bragging rights are then awarded. :cool:
Jay Cunningham
11-04-07, 20:57
Bragging rights are then awarded. :cool:
And sometimes slings.
;)
I love the walkback drill. It highlights every fundamental of marksmanship and builds confidence!
Patrick Aherne
11-05-07, 13:04
[ Seriously, after this class, I called up Grant and ordered the Vickers Two Point Sling without the Fas-tex buckles. I tossed my single point in the trash.
Larry is definitely worth spending your training dollars on and I would take the exact same class over again.
Why, without the fastex buckles? What was Mr. Vickers opinion on the set up. I see how he has his set up, simple and rugged.....
I appreciate your answer.
Jack
I have had Fas-tex buckles come loose and drop my loaded rifle, muzzle first, on the ground. For Mr. Vicker's class, I remedied this with bright green zip-ties around the buckles to prevent them from opening. It's almost Christmas, don't you know?
Grant carries a version of the Vickers Two-point with sewn-in QD swivels and no Fas-tex. Fas-tex are good for being able to pop out of the sling and ditch your rifle quickly, but the main function of the sling is to keep the weapon attached to my body, and the Fas-tex just wasn't cutting it.
You'd have to ask LAV what his opinion is on how he sets up his sling. His opinion of how I had my single-point sling set-up was rather colorful and thoroughly entertaining. I enjoyed every minute of it.
The more I think about this class, the more I realize how much I just didn't know about trigger control and how important it is. Now, if you looked at my training resume, it's pretty impressive. However, in all those hours of schooling, no one explained, at least in a way I could understand, why it was so important and how to perfect the trigger press.
Keep in mind, I am not a good shooter and consider myself rather average and minimally competent. That's why I train. This class helped me identify my deficiencies and will, hopefully, allow me to improve my performance in the future.
I know there are some folks out there reading this who haven't been to training classes and may be intimidated by shooting poorly in front of others, or not having the coolest gear. Let me reassure you, by not taking classes from good instructors, and I place LAV near the top of anyone's heap, you are only hurting yourself and wasting money blasting ammo.
Plus, if you don't have the optics and newest doo-dads on your rifle, you can see what works on other people's gear and perhaps even try it out. On the flip side, if you have that adjustable gas block, match trigger and Eotech, you can run them hard and see when, not if, they fail.
Fred Blish was handing out loaner Aimpoints to folks whose Eotechs crapped out.
The technical information that Larry passed along was worth the price of admission. Prior to this class, there had been a push by my regional SWAT team to acquire suppressors. After seeing the HK 416 and the LWRC broken down, I understand the issues with suppressors and direct impingement rifles. I came back and used the information to get $5K of new headsets instead of the suppressors because I was able to explain to my captain why suppressors are not a simple twist on solution and the issues we would face if we bought them. We may buy them in the future, but we will also buy HK 416 rifles for them to mount on.
If you are a regular guy, firearms instructor, SWAT guy, or massage parlor operator: take a class with LAV when he is available. Take a class with a local, good training provider, like LMS Defense, in the meantime.
Jay Cunningham
11-05-07, 13:54
You'd have to ask LAV what his opinion is on how he sets up his sling.
Larry helped me set up my sling on my SLR-106FR. He said that he does not like to use the fas-tex connectors but that they are an option. He told me that with no gear on (basically just your shirt) you should be able to shoulder and use the rifle normally with the sling at its tightest. Then you can let the sling out as necessary to accomodate chest carriers, armor, weak shoulder transitions, etc.
Fred Blish was handing out loaner Aimpoints to folks whose Eotechs crapped out.
Freddie Blish is a fine American representing a great product line. I've had Eotechs, I used them in classes and so on... I stongly prefer Aimponts.
Y-
Patrick Aherne
11-05-07, 17:23
Freddie Blish is a fine American representing a great product line. I've had Eotechs, I used them in classes and so on... I stongly prefer Aimponts.
Y-
I like the Eotech reticle best of all, however, I might have to shoot someone and I can't be sure that it will work when I need it to. The Aimpoint works and is cop-proof.
Chappy just about covered it all. That was the BEST class I have veer attended.
More so for the information on trigger control and "El Snatcho!" than anything else.
My shooting skills have definitely improved. LAV is a true professional. I look forward tomy next class with him and LMS.
Pat, good to hear from you!
Mace
John_Wayne777
11-05-07, 21:33
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/elsnatcho.jpg
Shooting with someone of Mr. Vickers’ vast expertise is always an enlightening experience. It is easy to get into a training rut and get complacent with our shooting. No matter what level a shooter has progressed to, shooting fundamentally revolves around sight alignment and trigger control. Larry’s emphasis on accuracy, coupled with time pressure rapidly illuminates any technique flaws and trouble areas a shooter might have developed. The "ball and dummy", Siebel (3 x 6 shots), “humbler” (7 x 10 shots), box (12 shots pistol/24 shots rifle), walk-back (to 80 yards w/pistol and 200 w/rifle) drills are all key for reinforcing fundamentals. Larry teaches very good reloading and malfunction routines that can be used rapidly day or night. The 300-350 shots taken each day may seem low, but not when each shot must be precisely placed, while both static and on the move.
This is one of the few training sessions I have attended that had civilians, as well as LE and military personnel. As such, there was a greater mix of equipment and resulting issues than with unit training. A few things are worth noting. For tactical holsters, the Safariland 6004 modified to sit higher on the leg and use one strap is the way to go. For those stuck wearing armor in vehicles or dismounted on long patrols, a vest mounted holster is a good alternative. There are a lot of good sights currently available—Novak, Heinie, Warren, 10-8, so as one shooter in the class discovered, why compromise yourself with something that is less than optimal, like the XS pistol sights? Shooters using pistols with a consistent short trigger pulls (1911, Glock) generally found it easier than folks with traditional DA/SA (ala M9) or long trigger pulls like the DAK or LEM. In addition to the ubiquitous problems of “el snatcho” and sight alignment, many folks found they really needed to improve their reloads and practice shooting on the move.
Over the past 2 decades I’ve used many 1911’s, both issued and purchased—I shoot the 1911 better than any other pistol I’ve used. When properly customized, a 1911 is as reliable, durable, and shootable as any pistol ever created. Yet 1911’s are probably not the first pistol I would recommend for most people in this era, as 1911’s are only viable with significant inputs of time and money on the part of the shooter. I’ve had over a dozen 1911’s customized by various “big name” pistol smiths, but I have gotten rid of a third of them, because they did not prove 100% reliable and another third had to have additional expert pistolsmith attention by Chuck Rogers in order to finally run correctly. In addition, 1911 magazines are problematic, as several users found out in this class--save 10 round mags for training. Far too many of the 1911’s I’ve seen people shooting are truly not reliable enough for serious use. If a pistol, including 1911’s, cannot fire 1000 consecutive duty rounds without a malfunction, it is not fit for duty/carry.
For a simple out of the box pistol it is hard to beat a stock 9 mm Glock—change the sights, perhaps add an excellent Vickers/TD mag-catch, and if you desire get the grips stippled, but DON’T mess with the guts! One user in the class ran into significant problems with his Glock as a result of an extended slide-stop and match barrel. Keep your Glock simple and it will work. Of note, Mr. Vickers was running a basic G19 with some nice stippling by Bowie. The S&W .40 M&P is another good pistol--at most needing a bit of trigger work by Bowie or Burwell and perhaps some stippling. Mr. Vickers also mentioned that the HK P30 seems to be a viable pistol choice. For CA civilians, appropriate pistol choices are more limited: a .40 Browning HP, .45 ACP M&P, or if you have the time and money, a properly customized, reliable 1911 are all pistols that make sense if you are restricted by the CA 10 rd mag limit, as it isn’t worthwhile to use something like a G17 if you’re stuck with poorly conceived 10 rd mags.
Did we mention that the M9 sucks?
It was rare treat having two great pistolsmiths together at once. In addition to Larry Vickers, John Jardine was in the class and proved to be a superb shot.
Unfortunately, I was unable to attend both days of rifle shooting, however, a few things stand out. It is critical to make sure your weapon is properly zeroed—it doesn’t matter which zero you use, just make sure it is set and you know it. A lot of time is wasted in classes with folks showing up without a zeroed weapon. Mr. Vickers felt the 100 yard zero was probably most applicable for urban/suburban LE and civ use, while a 200 zero is probably better for somewhere like A-Stan. The idea of using a 25 meter zero for a LE long gun because “we just do entries” is criminally stupid…
In this era, you need an optic on your rifle—irons are no longer the first choice. There are lots of optics available, however, for a typical AR style carbine, the clear best choice is an Aimpoint with a 3x magnifier—this serves all your needs from zero to 300. Yes, the EOTECH reticle is nice, but as noted above, it's ideal if an optic always works and it doesn't need batteries every few weeks. ACOG’s are OK, but as the Marines are finding out, for under 25 yd shooting they are not optimal and not as versatile as an Aimpoint/magnifier combo. The S&B 1.1-4x Short Dot is a great optic with incredible versatility, however, it is very expensive, and may not be the best choice for typical LE/Civ usage as one shooter discovered in the class. Bottom line--get an Aimpoint Comp M3 or M4 and be done with it. For those on a budget, get the C3. For those running lightweight compact SBR’s, the Micro T1 is a great option. The LaRue mounts are the best way to go. Likewise, stick the Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a LaRue LT649:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/48437-LaRue_Pivot.jpg
If you want a VFG, mount it as far forward as possible and don’t “choke the chicken”, as Pat Rogers would say. Use a thumb forward grip and pull back against the VFG with edge of the hand.
If you have a malfunction under 25 yds, transition to your pistol!
What rifle? For kicks, I brought a early SPR upper from a well known custom vender that we had only previously only used for long range shots on gel blocks—It is very accurate, but promptly began to have failures to cycle in less than one magazine, as the screwed on gas block likely shifted, making it a beautiful bolt action AR… I finished the day using a standard 16” upper. Moral of the story—for serious use, keep your carbine simple.
Get a Colt 6920 16” upper:
-- Add an optic, as noted above.
-- Add a light, something simple and inexpensive like a SF G2L in a VTAC mount.
-- Add a good adjustable 2-point sling, as Pat Ahern noted above.
-- Add a PRI "Big Latch"/"Gas Buster" charging handle if you want something easier to use than stock.
-- Add a FF rail if you want it—LaRue, DD, Troy, KAC, whatever.
-- Add a VFG if desired; the Tango Down “Stubby” is the best of the bunch.
-- Get a bunch of GI mags with Magpul followers and standard Magpuls turned 90 degrees (not the Ranger plates) or the new Magpul PMAGS.
You’re done. Go shoot. A lot.
Mr. Chapman, thank you for presenting a fine class! Oh, and an elusive DocGKR picture—there have only been a couple others posted online in the past decade.
The S&B 1.1-4x Short Dot is a great optic with incredible versatility, however, it is very expensive, and may not be the best choice for typical LE/Civ usage as one shooter discovered in the class.
Can you give us further Doc?
John_Wayne777
11-06-07, 08:04
Unfortunately, I was unable to attend both days of rifle shooting, however, a few things stand out. It is critical to make sure your weapon is properly zeroed—it doesn’t matter which zero you use, just make sure it is set and you know it. A lot of time is wasted in classes with folks showing up without a zeroed weapon.
And how.
When the suggestions/requirements say to show up with a known good zero, it's critical that you do so because failing to do so burns valuable training time. Zeroing can easily suck up half a day...and in a 3 or 4 day course that's a VAST amount of training time.
Far too many of the 1911’s I’ve seen people shooting are truly not reliable enough for serious use. If a pistol, including 1911’s, cannot fire 1000 consecutive duty rounds without a malfunction, it is not fit for duty/carry.
Doc, I would agree. One thing I will note is that, you can't blame the weapon, for operator error.
I have a tendency to "slam" the mags home on a locked back slide, inducing malfunctions in a 1911 ("ripple effect" with the rounds). After some good input from LAV, regarding mag changes, this problem was quickly fixed. Loading a pistol is a "finesse" technique...
Doc, good to have you in class....
Mace
John Chapman
11-07-07, 15:35
Oh, and an elusive DocGKR picture—there have only been a couple others posted online in the past decade.[/i]
Oh, I have many more. I will be releasing them a little at a time. The most embarassing of them will be first. :D
Seriously, it was great to train with you Doc. True professionals are always in style.
Rmplstlskn
11-07-07, 16:17
<snip>Mr. Vickers felt the 100 yard zero was probably most applicable for urban/suburban LE and civ use, while a 200 zero is probably better for somewhere like A-Stan. The idea of using a 25 meter zero for a LE long gun because “we just do entries” is criminally stupid…
I'm confused... :confused: I thought, for a Carbine, the 100 yard zero was deemed less than ideal due to the TRAJECTORY of the .223/5.56 bullet at that zero (rapid fall after 100 yards) and that the 50 yard zero best utilized the trajectory characteristics of the .22 bullet. (About 1.3" high at 100 yards and almost zero again at 250 meters)
Vickers Low Light & Carbine Class in VA (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2104)
I quote from the above link:
Low Light Intensive 3-Day Carbine & Pistol Course
Instructors: Ken Hackathorn & Larry Vickers
Zeroed Weapons: 50-yard carbine preferred, but others are acceptable if you
have a good reason why and understand it. Know your handguns zero at
various ranges.
Rmpl
Larry Vickers
11-07-07, 17:58
The guy who wrote up the description of the low light class (VA Dinger) either did not know or forgot I perfer a 100 meter POA/POI impact zero with a 5.56 mm carbine
it is not a big deal any which way you zero it from 50 yd POA/POI, 100m, or 200 m - there is an argument for and against each one - educate yourself and pick your poison
One thing is absolutely certain - an SMG like 25 yd POA/POI zero is a NO GO with a carbine - you will be way out in left field at distance
Cheers
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Rmplstlskn
11-08-07, 09:40
One thing is absolutely certain - an SMG like 25 yd POA/POI zero is a NO GO with a carbine - you will be way out in left field at distance
Agreed! A trajectory like a softball...
Rmpl
Submariner
11-08-07, 11:44
-- Get a bunch of GI mags with Magpul followers and standard Magpuls turned 90 degrees (not the Ranger plates) or the new Magpul PMAGS.
What are your objections to Ranger Plates?
Do you have any thoughts on Lumpy Plates?
His opinion of how I had my single-point sling set-up was rather colorful and thoroughly entertaining.
Was it your setup specifically that he disliked? Or does he dislike single point slings altogether??
I have used a single point sling for at least 5 years now, and I like it a lot. It's never given me any trouble on the range while training.
Need to know...
The S&B 1.1-4x Short Dot is a great optic with incredible versatility, however, it is very expensive, and may not be the best choice for typical LE/Civ usage as one shooter discovered in the class.
This really needs some more detail. I'm picturing several variables, but nothing that would dismiss it out of hand, and automatically annoint the Aimpoint with 3x as king....
Can you help us understand better?
Jay Cunningham
11-08-07, 13:44
LAV is not a fan of single point slings, but he really hates three points.
He told us in the March AK class that they were king for transitioning shoulders but he did not care for them for anything else. I think the consensus was sort of that if you do a lot of vehicular in/out then they are good as well. Naturally Larry favored the adjustable 2 point. Imagine that... ;)
LAV is not a fan of single point slings, but he really hates three points.
He told us in the March AK class that they were king for transitioning shoulders but he did not care for them for anything else. I think the consensus was sort of that if you do a lot of vehicular in/out then they are good as well. Naturally Larry favored the adjustable 2 point. Imagine that... ;)
Well, I guess when I go to a carbine class with him I'll see how my tried and true MOUT sling does....
Erick Gelhaus
11-08-07, 14:23
Shivan-
... a couple of thoughts ...
First, I wouldn't change my gear just to avoid commentary from an instructor. If its what I would normally use, then I'd run it. What might be very valid from the instructor's perspective, might not affect me. Take the class with what you carry / use normally and adjust from there based on your experience & what you learn.
Second, you commented on the single point from a training environment. I ran a Wilderness single point in the middle east for a full year. One addition I made was that addition of the adapter they make. This allowed me to run it as a single point when we were mounted & doing raids -and- let me use it as a coventional two point when walking (dismounted patrolling) or not out in sector.
Were I to do to nothing but vehicle mounted work - where I had to have a carbine on me all the time - I'd stay with a single point. But I've switched because it is not real viable for the majority of what I do right now.
First, I wouldn't change my gear just to avoid commentary from an instructor. If its what I would normally use, then I'd run it. What might be very valid from the instructor's perspective, might not affect me. Take the class with what you carry / use normally and adjust from there based on your experience & what you learn.
Agreed, never would change it, unless the suggestions made sense for me. It has lasted through commentary from instructors at BW, EAG, 10-8, etc... ;) Most of their commentary included personal preference only.
The one AI that had a comment about single point slings was of some use to me, and others using them. If you were to get into a hand-to-hand altercation with an assailant, a single point sling may be harder to slip out of if the BG got control of you using your carbine and sling. Whereas a 2-point sling could be slipped fairly easily....
For this reason, I now carry two pig stickers readily available on my gear. Either to cut the BG who has both hands on my carbine, or to cut myself away from the sling if I was truly jammed up so bad that I couldn't detach the buckle.
Second, you commented on the single point from a training environment. I ran a Wilderness single point in the middle east for a full year. One addition I made was that addition of the adapter they make. This allowed me to run it as a single point when we were mounted & doing raids -and- let me use it as a coventional two point when walking (dismounted patrolling) or not out in sector.
Were I to do to nothing but vehicle mounted work - where I had to have a carbine on me all the time - I'd stay with a single point. But I've switched because it is not real viable for the majority of what I do right now.
In reality, if I needed a carbine in my life, highly unlikely as it is, it would probably be while mounted AND driving. The Specter MOUT sling I use allows me to jettison the weapon using the buckle between the two parts. So I would be able to dismount the weapon without removing the sling, and when I transitioned out of the drivers seat, I can grab carbine, move behind cover, and reattach the weapon as necessary.
FWIW, a lot of instructors have commented on my Eagle Industries chest rig too....I find it works for me, and it too has lasted through since BW some 5 years or so ago...
I just like to be prepped for the shit talkin' that might be headed my way. :D :D :D
The guy who wrote up the description of the low light class (VA Dinger) either did not know or forgot I perfer a 100 meter POA/POI impact zero with a 5.56 mm carbine
it is not a big deal any which way you zero it from 50 yd POA/POI, 100m, or 200 m - there is an argument for and against each one - educate yourself and pick your poison
One thing is absolutely certain - an SMG like 25 yd POA/POI zero is a NO GO with a carbine - you will be way out in left field at distance
Cheers
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Thank you for posting this Larry, there is quite a bit of confusion on this, perhaps a good subject for "tactical tips":D ?
Patrick Aherne
11-08-07, 22:20
I just like to be prepped for the shit talkin' that might be headed my way. :D :D :D
There was no shit talking by Larry; I tend not to be a shrinking violet and there was a funny exchange regarding the merits of the single-point and its proper set-up. You had to be there. There WERE some real characters in the class and there was a lot of good natured banter among the students present. It was all in good fun.
My single-point sling was pretty beaten-up after a number of training days and about three weeks of various schools, i.e. crawling around on concrete, crawling around on gravel, crawling around on dirt, more crawling around on concrete, a little rappeling, etc. It was held together with zip-ties on the Fas-tex and butt ugly.
Larry tends to provide opportunities to see if your gear works. It's up to you to decide whether it suits your intended use. I switched to his two-point for my issue rifle after seeing it used, properly.
I switched to his two-point for my issue rifle after seeing it used, properly.
What is the proper way to adjust the VCAS? Is it as stated earlier just a t-shirt on and adjust to it's tight est point so it can be shouldered naturally? Then use the adjustment strap to let out extra room for gear (vest, Chest rig,...)
What is used properly?
I don't want to beat an old horse, but I want to make sure I am using my VCAS properly.
Also, what about the 100 is preferred above the 50 yard zero?
Mr. Vickers both of these would be excellent "Tactical Tips" for your site....
Sincerely THANK YOU.
Yes, does Larry prefer students arrive at his class with a 50 yard zero or a 100 yard zero for carbines?
I ask because the class descriptions specify a 50 yard zero.
Yes, does Larry prefer students arrive at his class with a 50 yard zero or a 100 yard zero for carbines?
I ask because the class descriptions specify a 50 yard zero.
See post #25 by Larry.
Lumpy196,
One of the guys there had S&B Short Dot's mounted on his carbines--he was a relatively inexperienced carbine shooter. He also made the mistake of getting the S&B post reticle (#2?) instead of the CQB reticle. He was shooting shotgun pattern groups, even at 25 yards. Freddie gave him a Comp M4 to try. I zero'ed it for him (the gun would shoot into little silver dollar size groups for me). The gentleman's groups immediately shrank to a third of the previous shotgun pattern and improved from there. As I noted--not everyone is able to take advantage of the S&B--it is a shooter problem, not a scope problem. I am increasingly convinced that for the vast majority of carbine users, an Aimpoint is the best way to go.
Submariner,
The Ranger plates tend not to work as well when using the mag as a monopod shooting off a variety of hard surfaces. In addition, the standard Magpul turned 90 degrees (ie. loop running anterior-posterior, rather than the traditional side-to-side) seems to provide more protection when a mag drops to the deck.
As I noted--not everyone is able to take advantage of the S&B--it is a shooter problem, not a scope problem.
I'm tracking with you now. Thanks for the clarification.
I use Aimpoints on most of my carbines. I have an S&B on the "main".
Thanks for the insight.
Submariner
11-09-07, 10:47
Submariner,
The Ranger plates tend not to work as well when using the mag as a monopod shooting off a variety of hard surfaces. In addition, the standard Magpul turned 90 degrees (ie. loop running anterior-posterior, rather than the traditional side-to-side) seems to provide more protection when a mag drops to the deck.
Copy. I have only used them on dirt surfaces. Good gouge. Thanks.
Erick Gelhaus
11-09-07, 14:10
I just like to be prepped for the shit talkin' that might be headed my way. :D :D :D
Good copy.
HolyRoller
11-10-07, 00:33
Lumpy196,
One of the guys there had S&B Short Dot's mounted on his carbines--he was a relatively inexperienced carbine shooter. He also made the mistake of getting the S&B post reticle (#2?) instead of the CQB reticle. He was shooting shotgun pattern groups, even at 25 yards. Freddie gave him a Comp M4 to try. I zero'ed it for him (the gun would shoot into little silver dollar size groups for me). The gentleman's groups immediately shrank to a third of the previous shotgun pattern and improved from there. As I noted--not everyone is able to take advantage of the S&B--it is a shooter problem, not a scope problem. I am increasingly convinced that for the vast majority of carbine users, an Aimpoint is the best way to go.
http://www.schmidtbender.com/reticlesflashdot.htm is I think what you're talking about. Interesting--the FlashDot 2 reticle uses a tapered post, and I happened to have read in an old USAMU countersniper manual that of all reticles, a tapered post is the worst choice, because the tendency is to line up one side or the other so it's vertical, thereby always canting the rifle. Then there's the difficulty in remembering whether it's zeroed for center mass or 6:00 hold, and some people don't know or care to find out in the first place.
I like my CQB first focal plane reticle just fine, thanks, because on 1.1x the crosshairs are visible enough to use if the battery dies and leaves you dotless, but thin enough to not block your view or distract from the dot. With the dot on, you don't worry about chevrons, posts, ghost rings etc., it's a simple matter of dot = bullet. With a 100m zero, just hold a little high when closer, usually about the top of a bullseye target. On 4x, the dot is a bit big, so turn it off if you need to. Some complain that you don't need the mil hashes, but I find them a very handy guide to range. The head of a TQ-15 target fills up 2 mils at 100 and that's about all I need to know. And then there's that righteous S&B glass that makes anything else seem like the Mexican sharpshooter's scope in 3:10 to Yuma.
But yeah, the Short Dot is heavy and does affect the carbine's handling, and now that Aimpoints seem to have a viable 3x option, if I had it to do over again, I'd go Aimpoint for my patrol carbine and put the cost difference toward an S&B for my bolt rifle.
For those who worry about what LAV might say re your gear, it's all in good fun. He pronounced my SureFire 900A "the biggest POS in history" or something similar, and I'm still happily running it, now that I've figured out how to grip it without constantly ADing the white light. But do get a Vickers sling, now THAT will impress him.:D
Stretz Tactical Inc
11-10-07, 07:04
Holly roller,
Did Larry say why the 900A was a POS? I was thinking of getting one.
They are good, but they are heavy, and there have been instances, IIRC, of the handle being broken off. I have not personally witnessed this, nor do I fear it's occurence, which is the reason I still run one on one of my SBRs.
I prefer the TD VFG with a Surefire 961 or something of that sort for most apps, though...
HolyRoller
11-10-07, 13:39
KCS, I don't remember the specific reason, come to think of it. It is a tad heavy and I could see how the VFG might be broken in an extreme situation, leaving you with no light since that's where the batteries are. However, I tried the usual field expedients such as Weaver-ringing a 6P to the rail and using that in conjunction with a cheap VFG, and couldn't get happy with it. When out to the side, the light doesn't fit well in the rifle case and I only have so much room in there, and it seems to me the light would bump on obstructions, although plenty of people who know what they're doing have not found it to be a problem. When the light was at 6:00, I couldn't get comfortable working the tailcap button or twist switch. I still have those components if I ever need them.
Like they say in the Bronx, "yiz gotta ah-TIC-ya-late" why you have what you have, so my articulable reasons are first, on LE duty, I want positive identification of what I may be about to shoot, and second, if the scene is concerning enough that I've broken out the rifle, I want to see what they're doing, and very clearly. I've practiced walking up at night on the junk car in my yard (aka redneck status symbol) and I can see very well in there, also I know to approach at an angle so the light won't reflect back at me so bad. There's a small possibility, too, that a sudden bright light will startle and freeze the BG long enough for him to think things over and surrender--yah right, but at least I tried.
Now I remember one reason LAV didn't like the 900, because it's too easy to accidentally bump the tape switches. However, following LAV's general advice about VFGs, which is to move them as far forward as possible and then choke up on them, I seem to have it under control. If I put my left hand so that the middle and ring fingers are between the light body and the VFG, only the pinky is near the tape switch and it's nearly impossible to AD the white light. When I need the light, I just move some fingers downward and illuminate. The VFG is in the right place for my support hand to pull the butt into my shoulder when firing from prone monopod. I don't find the little blue LED "navigation lights" to be of much use except if I was out in the woods on a night manhunt I could keep from tripping over stuff, I suppose.
Given what I need my 900 to do, I put the 230-lumen bulb in it because getting maximum brightness is worth the reduction in battery life, and also maximum evidence that I wasn't intending to use my weaponlight like a flashlight. Of course you don't use it like a flashlight--that's what the 115-lumen 9P on the belt and the 60-lumen 6P pocket backup are for. (Another deputy is always telling me to get a huge light like his, "in case you need to hit somebody." I always say back, that's what the baton is for.) Definitely get a LaRue mount because the thumbwheels on the factory mount are in the perfect place to simultaneously grate your support hand and gradually unscrew.
All that said, I'm very interested in the "Ideal Light Mount" I think it's called, that puts a light at 12:00 forward of the FSB. Voila, weight goes down, no VFG needed, and the bottom rail is free for a bipod. I've seen pics of the prototype over on 10-8. I hope somebody actually builds it.
I am a 900 hater.
They are too expensive, complex, have a crappy mount, and most importantly break with an all too frequent regularity.
I like a simple SF G2 or G2L in a VTAC mount--$50 to $100 at most--puts the light for me at 11:00 o'clock for easy support hand thumb activation.
I am a 900 hater.
They are too expensive, complex, have a crappy mount, and most importantly break with an all too frequent regularity.
I like a simple SF G2 or G2L in a VTAC mount--$50 to $100 at most--puts the light for me at 11:00 o'clock for easy support hand thumb activation.
Doc,
Are you running a VFG with the above set up? You are right handed, correct?
Jack
Matt Edwards
11-11-07, 09:40
I have run a Vtac mount with a 6P with and (primarily) without a VFG. It is a pretty good system.
I am a 900 hater.
They are too expensive, complex, have a crappy mount, and most importantly break with an all too frequent regularity.
I like a simple SF G2 or G2L in a VTAC mount--$50 to $100 at most--puts the light for me at 11:00 o'clock for easy support hand thumb activation.
VTAC with a G2 - very nice. I'm glad I found out about this setup - Thanks DocGKR.
Rmplstlskn
12-14-07, 22:22
The guy who wrote up the description of the low light class (VA Dinger) either did not know or forgot I prefer a 100 meter POA/POI impact zero with a 5.56 mm carbine
it is not a big deal any which way you zero it from 50 yd POA/POI, 100m, or 200 m - there is an argument for and against each one - educate yourself and pick your poisonwww.vickerstactical.com
To revive an old (but excellent) thread, your preference for a 100m zero on a Carbine has been circling in my brain now that I am getting ready to re-zero two carbines... and I'd like to "educate myself" and find out why.
I'm sure there is a good reason, but looking at the trajectory graphs below, it seems to ME (<---- civvy recreational shooter who loves AR's) that the 50yard zero, again crossing POA at 250 yards/229 meters, takes better advantage of the 5.56mm M193 trajectory path... No matter what distance out to 250 yards you will always hit within a 2.3" circle (ammo and shooter fluctuations aside) from your POA.
Please educate me (us) on your thinking & experiences with the 100m zero... :confused: I believe you are basing it on the most likely distances a "realistic" threat someone with a carbine may encounter (and be legally justified in using lethal force)... Correct?
M193 with a 100 meter (109 yards) zero...
http://www.wwyd.org/images/AR15/M193_100m-zero.JPG
M193 with a 50 yard zero...
http://www.wwyd.org/images/AR15/M193_50zero.JPG
50y zero
25y 1.19" low
50y 0
75y .96" high
100y 1.67 high
150y 2.28" high
200y 1.74" high
250y .07" low
100m zero
25y 1.61" low
50y .85" low
75y .32" low
100y .04" low
150y .28" low
200y 1.67" low
250y 4.33" low
John_Wayne777
12-15-07, 11:18
To revive an old (but excellent) thread, your preference for a 100m zero on a Carbine has been circling in my brain now that I am getting ready to re-zero two carbines... and I'd like to "educate myself" and find out why.
I'm sure there is a good reason, but looking at the trajectory graphs below, it seems to ME (<---- civvy recreational shooter who loves AR's) that the 50yard zero, again crossing POA at 250 yards/229 meters, takes better advantage of the 5.56mm M193 trajectory path... No matter what distance out to 250 yards you will always hit within a 2.3" circle (ammo and shooter fluctuations aside) from your POA.
Please educate me (us) on your thinking & experiences with the 100m zero... :confused: I believe you are basing it on the most likely distances a "realistic" threat someone with a carbine may encounter (and be legally justified in using lethal force)... Correct?
I won't presume to speak for Mr. Vickers here, but I believe I can help you with some of the logic behind the 100 meter zero based on some of my past training.
1. It is highly likely that the vast majority of shooting most folks will do will take place within the 100 meter range. Within that range figuring out the holdover you need can be a royal pain in the neck.
As a for instance, imagine there is a threat about 90 yards away proned out and blasting at you. With the 100 meter zero dealing with the threat means putting the dot on the target and pulling the trigger.
With the 50/250 setup if you put the dot on the threat and squeeze the trigger you are going to shoot high...and on a guy who is proned out and only offering you a VERY tiny target to begin with, that can be a real problem. You can miss him entirely. This can cause your life insurance rates to go up substantially.
An instructor I had in the past who was with DEVGRU for eight years (with a lot of time in AFG) said essentially "100 yards and in I don't have time to do math when I need to shoot somebody. You have to get lead on them quick before they get lead on you. Beyond that range I have more time to work with, enough time to figure out holdover."
2. You can get a good 100 yard zero at 25 yards, and practically every range on the planet has room to shoot at 25 yards, meaning you can zero your rifle reliably almost anywhere.
The 5.56 AR defensive carbine (red dot, 16" or less barrel, etc...) is realistically a 300 yard/meter and in weapon, with the most likely uses being at the 100 yards/meters and under range. Personally I would rather have the most forgiving sighting option I can get for the first 100 yards because that's the outer limit of any threat envelope I am likely to see, and that's the range where getting lead on target as quickly as possible is going to mean the most. (Your opponent doesn't need a lot of skill to make a hit 100 yards and in....)
If I were an SF type roaming the mountains of Afghanistan I might well want a more forgiving zero at the longer ranges.
My 2 cents.
Rmplstlskn
12-15-07, 21:54
As a for instance, imagine there is a threat about 90 yards away proned out and blasting at you. With the 100 meter zero dealing with the threat means putting the dot on the target and pulling the trigger.
Yes, a 100m zero at 90 yards would be about 1/4" inch low... and given the average spread of most non-match ammo, like M193, at that range, the 100m zero would be SIMPLER...
But the 50y zero is only 1.5" or so high... but add in ammo spread, a miss of a prone target is highly possible if POA had no hold under...
I'm still trying to work it out in my head FOR MY NEEDS, which is mostly recreational, as I have had a 50y zero for 5.56mm in my head for DECADES... Actually, the holdover/under is almost automatic now. Not sure I want to screw with that... but I'm always willing to learn from the pros and evaluate what they recommend seriously.
Rmpl
What zero you use is less important that actually having one and knowing it...Each has some advantages. For LE and civ use, the 100 is probably best; for a mil shooter in open terrain, a different approach might have more merit.
Are you guys sure it is a 100 meter zero and not a 100 yard zero?
Failure2Stop
12-16-07, 09:59
Are you guys sure it is a 100 meter zero and not a 100 yard zero?
Insignificant difference, though LAV says 100m.
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