View Full Version : SHTF/GUARD DOG BREEDS
Everyone knows dogs are among the best criminal deterrents one can get. In hard/bad times, I'm curious what breed you guys believe would serve a guard dog role best?
I am thinking real hard about a fila brasileiro for this task. Yes they are big, and they will eat a little more, but from my experience really no more than a high energy dog like a shepherd. A good buddy has a great dane/mastif mix, over 200 lbs and he eats less than some labs I've seen. This is also true of another friends Fila. The Fila/mastifs are very hearty/strong dogs that I believe would far well in rough times, plus they will not out of boredom chew up everything under the sun. They are quite happy just laying around until the time comes to bite an arm off. They are great around & guarding other animals as well.
What say you guys?
If you are looking for a dog in preparation for SHTF scenario, choose one that tastes good.
Reagans Rascals
08-19-11, 07:22
I found a jack russel terrier/ rat terrier/ mutt running down the road one day. She's about 20 pounds and just a little bigger than a Jack Russel terrier. She is the most vicious thing I've ever seen, but only to anyone or anything getting close to me. If something makes noise, she hears it. If something moves, she sees it. I rely on her increased awareness as an early warning so I can grab my weapon. Nothing is going to come around unnoticed with her here.
She has backed down my Miniature Doberman Pincer, Chihuahua, My parents German Shepard, and their Mississippi Red Hound Dog that weighs better than 90 pounds.... she's a little Joe Pesci... just a little death dealer...
Solid white with a light brown stripe on her back from the top of her head to her tail that stands straight up when she is playing or attacking... and her name is La-Ronda
The most loyal dogs are usually mutts... IMO
I don't know much/anything about dogs, but I remember the blogger ferfal (http://ferfal.blogspot.com/) (also author of Surviving the Economic Collapse (http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Economic/dp/9870563457/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313765377&sr=1-1) mentions the Dogo Argentino as a particularly good breed for this role.
Ferfal's stuff has some interesting points and some other misguided (IMO) advice, so I don't know how valid/invalid, but seems like an interesting breed and one that may fit the bill if you're unfamiliar with them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogo_Argentino
For hard times I would go with a breed no larger than 75-95lbs. I have a great dane/american bulldog mix and he's alot of dog to take care of. As far as the particular breed if the size is no problem for you then the Fila is a excellent choice as well as a Presa or Boerboell. With the right training though you could be well served by a mutt also.
TriumphRat675
08-19-11, 10:13
If you are looking for a dog in preparation for SHTF scenario, choose one that tastes good.
+1. :lol:Truer words...
I'm certainly no expert on dogs, but when my wife and I decided to get a dog I wanted something that would be a good "guard dog" as well as a family dog, since Im away a lot for work...
We got a German Shepherd. Somehow we ended up with the funniest, friendliest, and goofiest German Shepherd in the world! However any strangers or people planning to do harm to my wife/property dont know that, and just SEEING a german shepherd makes people think twice. She's the perfect family dog, listens well, hardly ever gets out of sight of us...yet again, she is ALL GSD looking. And she's got the GSD bark...
I do wonder if she'd actually attack someone who broke in, or just bark at them...but if they decide the bark isnt scary enough hopefully my AR will change their mind
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj121/Blstr88/865db039.jpg
Littlelebowski
08-19-11, 10:17
Everyone knows dogs are among the best criminal deterrents one can get. In hard/bad times, I'm curious what breed you guys believe would serve a guard dog role best?
I am thinking real hard about a fila brasileiro for this task. Yes they are big, and they will eat a little more, but from my experience really no more than a high energy dog like a shepherd. A good buddy has a great dane/mastif mix, over 200 lbs and he eats less than some labs I've seen. This is also true of another friends Fila. The Fila/mastifs are very hearty/strong dogs that I believe would far well in rough times, plus they will not out of boredom chew up everything under the sun. They are quite happy just laying around until the time comes to bite an arm off. They are great around & guarding other animals as well.
What say you guys?
I absolutely disagree. Size doesn't mean shit. Get a breed with a natural patrolling instinct coupled with a genetic predisposition to guard its master, master's family, and property. A German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois. Don't consider these breeds if "laying around" is high on your list of priorities though.
I absolutely disagree. Size doesn't mean shit. Get a breed with a natural patrolling instinct coupled with a genetic predisposition to guard its master, master's family, and property. A German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois. Don't consider these breeds if "laying around" is high on your list of priorities though.
Oh the size issue is the least of my worries. I just know our lifestyle, very busy and honestly I know I will not have the time to exercise a high energy dog like the Shepherd. I love shepherds, as all dogs; infact I cannot fathom "eating one" as was mentioned, so I would really feel bad not being able to work with/exercise/give the shepherds what they need and desire.
I know a guy with a Fila it is unbelievible around family & other animals, but an unreal guard dog. If he doesn't know you forget coming into the yard without the master's concent. So, in being honest with myself, laying around and "being watchful" is very much high on my list at this point in my life.
Littlelebowski
08-19-11, 11:03
I know you personally HW, so I'm not worried about you being one of those mouth breathers that thinks that a big dog is a better dog and a sort of penis extension.
I think that you are doing the right thing researching this because a large dog like this with such low ownership in the US is a relative unknown. Especially around a family.
Personally, were I you; I'd look around for a 3-5 yr old Shepherd. By that age, they've mellowed and are truly excellent family and guard dogs. My last dog was just such an animal and a more noble dog I have not seen.
The problem with researching new dog breeds is most of the time you just hear a bunch of bullshit about how great the breed is from folks that have pride of ownership (just like firearms).
You could also consider adopting a military working dog washout from Lackland Air Force Base. Many fail due to lack of aggression and are fine dogs. Mals and Shepherds.
+1. :lol:Truer words...
I can take a joke & I know some people are just not dog people, I'm not much of a kid person FWIW, but seriously, there is no friend a man can have that will be more loyal and true than a dog. Infact in many places in the world, man's very meals come from the hard work & help of a dog & his nose. For some their every waking moment is spent working and trying to please their masters. Why would I ever consider eating my best friend? I wouldn't suggest to someone in a bad situation to eat their kids, so lets leave that kind of talk from this thread please.
I had not even thought of adopting, damn good idea LL. Are shepherds good around other dogs, chickens, livestock...? I might try and start up a funny farm in the next couple years too.
Thanks Bro
I know you personally HW, so I'm not worried about you being one of those mouth breathers that thinks that a big dog is a better dog and a sort of penis extension.
I think that you are doing the right thing researching this because a large dog like this with such low ownership in the US is a relative unknown. Especially around a family.
Personally, were I you; I'd look around for a 3-5 yr old Shepherd. By that age, they've mellowed and are truly excellent family and guard dogs. My last dog was just such an animal and a more noble dog I have not seen.
The problem with researching new dog breeds is most of the time you just hear a bunch of bullshit about how great the breed is from folks that have pride of ownership (just like firearms).
You could also consider adopting a military working dog washout from Lackland Air Force Base. Many fail due to lack of aggression and are fine dogs. Mals and Shepherds.
Littlelebowski
08-19-11, 11:45
I had not even thought of adopting, damn good idea LL. Are shepherds good around other dogs, chickens, livestock...? I might try and start up a funny farm in the next couple years too.
Thanks Bro
A German Shepherd will be fine with other dogs and livestock given proper leadership and guidance. I grew up on an 85k acre cattle ranch with a German Shepherd as my constant companion. You need to exert positive leadership and let the dog know its boundaries. These dogs need a human Alpha.
I'd look for a 2-4 yr old male, even a 5 yr old. A dog that is not afraid of you, meeting your eyes with a direct gaze but not aggressive either.
There's a guy on LightFighter that breeds and sells good GSDs on LightFighter. I trust him implicitly and can put you in touch with him.
i have a 7 year old belgian malinois and a 5 year old chihuaha/boston terrier mutt thing. they seem to be the near perfect combination for detecting and detering. the mal is starting to go deaf, somewhat lazy, and lives a pretty laidback lifestyle. the mutt hears, sees, smells everything and will fight or bite anyone/thing that crosses him wrong. there has been 2 occasions where people were breaking into cars in the neighborhood, and started jumping fences to go yard to yard. i was in the garage messing with something, the mal was by my side chewing on a bone, the mutt was in the yard. i hear him start going crazy barking and growling, the second he went off the other dog sprang to action and i hear a zombie type character start yelling and hear running. by the time i got into the yard all i see is a bloody leg falling over the fence. the little dog caught his size 8 nike and ripped it off while the big dog caught him on the ass and worked down the back of the leg. they remind me of the little guy in the bar who will talk a big game because he has the big corn-fed buddy standing behind him. Lady(belgian malinois) and The Beast(mutt) i feel would serve me pretty well in any SHTF situation.
Gutshot John
08-19-11, 14:37
Herding/Working dogs are invariably best though they require effort.
If we're talking about SHTF I'd think a 80+ lb dog might consume a lot of resources. My thoughts were that two 35-45 lb dogs represent a more efficient solution.
Two breeds I'd look at are either the Queensland Heeler/Australian Kelpie or the Canaan Dog. Very smart, very loyal and very adaptable to a variety of roles (herding, guard). The Canaan Dog especially is notorious for its ability to spot out of place things/people and is almost paranoid about survival.
loganp0916
08-19-11, 15:35
I have a Neapolitan Mastiff. She's sleeps a lot and she's probably not the greatest dog for SHTF but if anyone acts like they're gonna hit me or the rest of my family or even jumps on me (like my little cousins) she gets pissed and bites at them and gets them away from me.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/636ecfe5-c897-2ac1.jpg
And she has gained a few pounds of muscle since this pic. She's a little over 2 years old and she'll get thicker but this is about as tall as she'll get.
Oh, and they were bread to guard palaces in ancient Rome or something like that. And she does use her weight against you. She's probably 120 or 130 pounds by now.
Cane Corso(Italian Mastiff)
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/Random%20Pics/Gia-and-Desiree-corsophoto-685x1024.jpg
GSD or Cane Corso for me.
I'm full up right now & with one very protective dog, so I'm good. However, when the time comes a Corso will be my next dog.
I like German shepards myself, but right now I have a boxer-chatahoola mix
I can take a joke & I know some people are just not dog people, I'm not much of a kid person FWIW, but seriously, there is no friend a man can have that will be more loyal and true than a dog. Infact in many places in the world, man's very meals come from the hard work & help of a dog & his nose. For some their every waking moment is spent working and trying to please their masters. Why would I ever consider eating my best friend? I wouldn't suggest to someone in a bad situation to eat their kids, so lets leave that kind of talk from this thread please.
Lighten up, I happen to be a former US Army Working Dog handler. I know the value of a dog. I also understand the liabilities of taking care of an animal in a combat zone. It's not all positive.
Best,
Aaron
PA PATRIOT
08-19-11, 18:29
Unless the dog can be muted and will stay put on command after it alerts you to possible intruders it will also alert the bad guys that someone maybe inside if barking can't be controlled. Now I'M talking SHTF so the dog most likely will be shot by intruders if they breach the perimeter but it may allow you the engage the threat while they deal with the dog.
Kind of depends on what you want the dog to do: alert you or alert and defend.
While I like the bigger dogs for working or playing in general, I think a smaller dog like that Jack Russel mentioned might be better for SHTF. Small enough to be low maintenance but fiesty enough to not go whimpering under the bed. If you have to bug out a smaller dog and their food and water takes a lot less space. For a longer term economic collapse or something, a big dog eats a lot and could get expensive or hard to get food unless the dog is used to fending for himself.
Unless the dog can be muted and will stay put on command after it alerts you to possible intruders it will also alert the bad guys that someone maybe inside if barking can't be controlled. Now I'M talking SHTF so the dog most likely will be shot by intruders if they breach the perimeter but it may allow you the engage the threat while they deal with the dog.
Agree that any dog you intend to be a help during a SHTF scenario should be well trained. The last thing you want is a dog that makes noise when you want to be low profile, or runs off or causes trouble. During a SHTF time there can be a lot of stress and confusion and a untrained dog could act up unpredictably.
lethal dose
08-19-11, 19:24
Of all the breeds I've had, two breeds stand out in my mind as being great resources. The English yellow lab is a great hunter, tracker, and watch dog. As far as trusting my life to a dog, my mongolian black chow chow would FEROCIOUSLY defend my life at all cost... quick as a mongoose, too.
I'll take my Belgian Malinois any day. He is a great family dog but very protective. He listens great and absolutly scares the hell out of everyone until he gets to know them. Had a solicitor come to the door the other day and one look at my belgian (Havoc) and away he went. Looking at getting a GSD in the near future.
loganp0916
08-19-11, 22:40
I'll take my Belgian Malinois any day. He is a great family dog but very protective. He listens great and absolutly scares the hell out of everyone until he gets to know them. Had a solicitor come to the door the other day and one look at my belgian (Havoc) and away he went. Looking at getting a GSD in the near future.
My mastiff is the same way. Scares the hell out of everyone! No one will let us open the door all the way just from hearing her bark.
ArRazorback
08-20-11, 00:06
If size isn't a concern, I'd say put some thought into miniature or standard schnauzers. Great family dogs and fiercely protective when they feel a threat to the family. We grew up with one that my dad described as always keeping my brother and me in the yard and keeping anybody else the hell out. Our first schnauzer left us many a year ago, but Mom and Dad haven't lived without one since.
When I saw this thread the first breed that came to mind was a Fila. Great dogs with the physical size to handle the job. Since you have a friend who owns one you already know how loyal they are. One goofy thing that I have noticed with them is that it is very easy for them to turn into a “one person” or “one family” dog.
Littlelebowski
08-20-11, 05:32
Cane Corso(Italian Mastiff)
Got any data for this thread? Data from personal experience?
I'm not sure I would get a dog based primarily on OHTF (Obama hitting the fan). Our dog is a Newfoudland weighing in at 110lbs. She looks like shes 170 with all the fur though. She's black & at night you can't even see her. She's very gentle with the fam but comes to attention quickly if a new face comes around. Her bark alone intimidates most people.
"You could also consider adopting a military working dog washout from Lackland Air Force Base. Many fail due to lack of aggression and are fine dogs.".
Excellent suggestion. They do wash out some fine dogs who just don't have what they are looking for. However, they may just have what you are looking for.
I have a Boxer as a pet. He is very defensive around strangers and very imposing. He is very protective of my wife. He is also a total couch potato. My Basset Hound has no protective drive, but she is the first to sound the alarm. She is also the loudest and most persistent. We have a family member living with us and her Staffordshire/American Bull mix is a handful. SHe is very protective. I can't even raise my voice to the kids without hearing from her. As a bonus, she dimes the kids out when they are fighting. She does not like strangers.
My working dog is a Groenendael. He is basically a long haired Belgian Malinois with a black paint job. He does not trust strangers until he hears from me. He is not bite/aggression trained, but knows when to turn it on. His ability to read the context of an encounter never fails to amaze me.
For a pet, I can not recommend Boxer dogs highly enough. As a bonus, they love kids. They also have goofy personalities that make them a real joy.
Hmmm, in addition to canines, how about a Llama?
Got any data for this thread? Data from personal experience?
You may have already read up on them, but here's a little info on them....
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/canecorsoitaliano.htm
I had a gsd and a malinois growing up, both excellant loving, playful and protective, well, they were both professionally trained guard dogs and fantastic animals! Presently have a giant schnauzer, jet black, basic obediance trained some protection training, but a naturally ferocious guardian of my kids,wife, and home. When she is loose outside she 'herds' my son and physically prevents him ffom skate boarding away unless I hold her..she also never leaves the house/yard perimeter. Once we left to go to dinner and a movie, left the front door unlocked ( i know), upon our return(4 hrs later) she was sitting outside the front preventing my other two little dogs from leaving and anyone else from entering !
Research a giant schnauzer, smart,protective, easy to train, 'all weather' rough coat, a 'natural' guardian ,and a good weight my female is only around 72 -75 lbs. My other dog is a rhodesian ridgeback also, basic obediance trained , FAST, protective and great with kids. There's another breed to consider..I love them both!
Keep in mind that what we would consider SHTF/EOTWAWKI, is what people in antiquity called everyday life. Look at some of the older working breeds. Just like selecting a gun or other piece of equipment, consider what exactly you expect this dog to do and does that job fit the profile of the dog? Keep in mind that many breeds today may be a bit over-bred and may have been bred for show-dog traits over work-dog attributes.
For me, I want a dog that can act a sentry, passive deterrent, and weapon. I like the American Pit Bull Terrier. I think 'The Pit' is the jack-of-all-trades of dogs. The biggest problem with this breed as it exists today is most are overbred and too big. The original American Pits of the early 20th Century were smallish dogs bred from English Staffs. Because of the current APBT problem in America I currently keep an English Stafforshire Terrier. These dogs are every bit as capable as the American breed but in a much tidier package.
Remember, it is not the sizes of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog.
lethal dose
08-20-11, 19:12
Caucasian ovcharka.
anatolian B
08-20-11, 19:25
Obviously I like Anatolians. They are dedicated to guarding the perimeter of your property, are easily trained, and are good with kids. I have had better results with females being less likely to wonder on large tracts of land than with males.
I agree with earlier comments about any dog breed doing the job with the proper training. My main expectations are a quick response to comands and care for family and property. Any mut with a hearty build could be a good candidate.
silviacrazed
08-20-11, 19:32
West German working blood line German Shepherd. I trained dogs for schutzhund for a while and dealt with a lot of dogs. I also like Belgian Malinois' a lot.
Sent from HTC EVO using taptalk
Buckeye0311
08-20-11, 21:17
We have a Boxer, and she is a great dog. She has been easy to train, good with kids, and loyal to a fault! Our girl is on the small side for Boxers, but this has been a plus because, as all Boxer owners know, they think they are lap dogs.
Get a Boxer and don't look back...just stock up on food.
Littlelebowski
08-21-11, 10:42
You may have already read up on them, but here's a little info on them....
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/canecorsoitaliano.htm
So....data from personal experience?
Littlelebowski
08-21-11, 10:55
Caucasian ovcharka.
How old is yours?
So....data from personal experience?
Friend of the family is a breeder. My experience with this breed follows right in line with the description on that website. They are very loyal and protective while at the same time being good with the family and children.
I have been working with German Shepherds for the last 7yrs. I had them as pets before that. My personal experience with the breed is that you get what you pay for.
Right now I have a female that really wouldn't be suitable for guard duty. She doesn't bark, is more curious than protective, and thinks that anyone wielding food must be her friend. She comes from Czech working lines, but makes a better service dog than guard dog. She'd rather cuddle up on the couch than go out and do bite work.
On the other hand I have a male that will not let a stranger come close to me unless I tell him its ok. He is a titled dog who is voracious on the bit sleeve, enthusiastic on the track, and stone cold on obedience. He's absolutely perfect around his little pack but watch out if you're a stranger and want to raise your voice or rough house around me.
Moral of the story, within a breed you get different dogs. Are German Shepherds a good breed for guard dogs? I don't think there is a better one, but you aren't going to get what you're looking for by just choosing a breed. I know golden retrievers that are meaner than my female.
Decide on a breed that has the right traits for what you want (germans, dobermans, pits, mastiffs... will all do what you're wanting) Then find a breeder and tell them what you're looking for. They may have what you want or help you find it. Good, stable working dogs are not cheap even as un-trained puppies.
-get a dog that is a true omnivore. While it sounds like an absurd statement, I know far too many people who have dogs that are picky eaters on a special diet, etc. Both of mine will inhale a leaf of lettuce if it's put in their bowl - I've done it many times just for people that won't believe it. I had to fence my garden as my dogs will eat tomatoes off the vine. However, it makes feeding them in inopportune times easy, they'll truly eat anything!
Something for alert? Jack Russell or some sort of terrier. Their lineage was to track small vermin, and they usually have excellent eyesight with good instinct to alert.
Something for physical defense/security? Belgian Malinois, but only because they are typically smaller than a GSD and would hopefully eat and drink less. Otherwise, GSD.
A Schutzhund trained Boxer/boxer mix would be a good dog too -- IMO.
She has backed down my Miniature Doberman Pincer,
There is no such thing a miniature Doberman - your Min Pin isnt even related.
... isnt even related.
I'm being pedantic about it, but they are both in Canis lupus familiaris. Making them related. :D
The Min Pin was around over 100 years before the Dobermann Pinscher showed up (you knew that).
I'm being pedantic about it, but they are both in Canis lupus familiaris. Making them related. :D
The Min Pin was around over 100 years before the Dobermann Pinscher showed up (you knew that).
Sorry its one of my ahem "pet peeves" as is the whole Warlock thing....sigh. ;)
lethal dose
08-21-11, 22:45
How old is yours?
294 in dog years. 42 in people years.
ColdDeadHands
08-24-11, 17:25
German Shepherd
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz170/mw1311/Pictures%20for%20Family/DSC_0038.jpg
I can only speak for the GSD. Mine is a 1 and a half year old female. She is about 80lbs. now. She is absolutely great as a guard dog thus far. If she percieves a threat she instinctively gets between my wife and the potential threat. Even if it is a just a stranger. I need to get her formally trained as she is pretty head strong and gets "ideas" ever so often. She's pretty much a goofball most of the time, and has full on tard strength to go with it. She's completely dismantled 2 cages within her first year. I was impressed. So now we let her do her natural patrol, and she seems to be much happier because of this. She's got a real strong prey drive but our 20lbs Maine Coon cat doesn't tolerate her shenanigans, makes for some epic funny mock fights. She puts up a pretty intimidating front though when someone rings our doorbell or knocks, when her hackles are up she looks like a damn hellhound. Wouldn't trade her for the world. As she's approaching 2yrs old she is calming down quite a bit, and is way more focused.
Littlelebowski
08-25-11, 14:49
This is akin to a guy asking "what gun for carry and training?" and some guys are saying "G19/G17," some are saying "P30," and some are saying .44Mag/454Casull/.550S&W/.460SW"
Littlelebowski
08-25-11, 14:52
294 in dog years. 42 in people years.
Are you saying you have Caucasian Ocharka that is 42? I was asking about the age of your dog.
A German Shepherd will be fine with other dogs and livestock given proper leadership and guidance.
No doubt. The best companions are the smartest of dogs...and can thus be very headstrong if not kept under strict discipline. All mine get edgy around other dogs but are amazing around the animals we have on the farm (horses and donkeys).
Paco and Bach...brothers and both amazing dogs. Paco was involved with jumps overseas with the Austrian Kommando Spezialeinsatzkräfte, just training no combat. It's my fiancees dog so I'll have to inquire as to specifics if anyone's curious.
Paco
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/34733_1508239546489_1249326534_1388786_8159629_n-1.jpg
Bach and my DD
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/6b33d17b-1.jpg
I got very lucky with a rescue as well, Chase (rott/chow mix). He's smaller than the other two but every bit as smart...and arguably more ferocious/protective. Maybe he feels more motivated than the other two to prove his worth since I saved him from the junkyard.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/242717_2074453741490_1249326534_2449771_4212034_o.jpg
Caucasian Ocharkas are one breed I want to look at once our dog population starts to thin out
Littlelebowski
08-25-11, 15:10
I'm not a fan of boutique dog breeds when German Shepherds need homes. I lucked out and found my Malinois on Craigslist.
Paco is a beautiful dog! Thanks for posting.
I'm not a fan of boutique dog breeds when German Shepherds need homes. I lucked out and found my Malinois on Craigslist.
Paco is a beautiful dog! Thanks for posting.
Agreed on the rescue/craigslist aspect. With the economy the way it is, I think many dump the dogs if vet bills begin to pile up.
Thank you...he's getting old but can still pose for the camera :D
This is akin to a guy asking "what gun for carry and training?" and some guys are saying "G19/G17," some are saying "P30," and some are saying .44Mag/454Casull/.550S&W/.460SW"
Agreed. This is a pretty fair assessment.
my vote goes to the german shepard. there is a reason that millitary and law enforcement use them
Littlelebowski
08-25-11, 16:30
Ya know, Russophiles were going on and on about the Black Russian Terrier and how great it was. Turned out to be a lot of hype and during the bombing in Moscow, the police were seen using German Shepherds. I talked to one handler that tried the BRT and he said it was not anywhere close to a Malinois or GSD.
My last GSD finishing off a fox that was stealing his food.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/photo.jpg
dustdevil13
08-25-11, 16:39
I'm certainly no expert on dogs, but when my wife and I decided to get a dog I wanted something that would be a good "guard dog" as well as a family dog, since Im away a lot for work...
We got a German Shepherd. Somehow we ended up with the funniest, friendliest, and goofiest German Shepherd in the world! However any strangers or people planning to do harm to my wife/property dont know that, and just SEEING a german shepherd makes people think twice. She's the perfect family dog, listens well, hardly ever gets out of sight of us...yet again, she is ALL GSD looking. And she's got the GSD bark...
I do wonder if she'd actually attack someone who broke in, or just bark at them...but if they decide the bark isnt scary enough hopefully my AR will change their mind
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj121/Blstr88/865db039.jpg
I've had two Sheppards and i think they are all "goofy." but hell if anyone wants to get close to you when one is on leash or in your yard. One draw back, they shed like no other.
thopkins22
08-25-11, 17:11
I realize this is pretty much turned into a guard dog thread. But in my opinion it shouldn't.
You and your family lead busy lives? Busy enough that a couple of hours a day(every day) cannot be dedicated towards training/exercising/playing with your dog?
I think you should pass on pretty much ALL of the traditional working/guard dogs. They're all too smart and have too much energy to ask them to lay around all day. Even if you find one that is willing to be lazy...is it okay to drive it into poor health because you don't have the time?
Pick a less intense dog that will weigh more than fifty pounds, and make sure and avoid pointers/setters(they will also waste away and get destructive without stimulation.) And then rest easy knowing that pretty much any dog will speak up when something is awry and that most criminals state that they skip houses that are only guarded by house slipper dogs.
Stop thinking about what you want the dog to do until you evaluate what kind of environment you can provide for it. Then pick the dog that best fits your needs from those that remain on the list.
I've had two Sheppards and i think they are all "goofy." but hell if anyone wants to get close to you when one is on leash or in your yard. One draw back, they shed like no other.
Ugh you're right about that! Luckily we own a lot of property and she's outside with us a LOT, so a lot of it comes off outside. I literally run the brush over her everyday though and everyday it fills right up. Dont know where it all comes from...I wouldnt trade her for anything though
brzusa.1911
08-25-11, 17:19
Growing up my dad had three Filas, a couple of German shepherds and a couple of Dobermans. All great dogs for defense, the Fila is just incredible. The dog is very protective, great with kids, very strong and very smart. I can't wait to get a Fila.
I realize this is pretty much turned into a guard dog thread. But in my opinion it shouldn't.
You and your family lead busy lives? Busy enough that a couple of hours a day(every day) cannot be dedicated towards training/exercising/playing with your dog?
I think you should pass on pretty much ALL of the traditional working/guard dogs. They're all too smart and have too much energy to ask them to lay around all day. Even if you find one that is willing to be lazy...is it okay to drive it into poor health because you don't have the time?
Pick a less intense dog that will weigh more than fifty pounds, and make sure and avoid pointers/setters(they will also waste away and get destructive without stimulation.) And then rest easy knowing that pretty much any dog will speak up when something is awry and that most criminals state that they skip houses that are only guarded by house slipper dogs.
Stop thinking about what you want the dog to do until you evaluate what kind of environment you can provide for it. Then pick the dog that best fits your needs from those that remain on the list.
Good points...but some of us already have dogs and are speaking from experience. I should've mentioned, like you did, that certain breeds arent good for certain people/lifestyles. If you're on here researching firearms, I assume everyone would exercise the dame diligence when picking a dog for the aforementioned purpose(s)
I think Lewbowski and other GSD (and the like) owners would agree that they need rigid training and exercise, especially when younger. Some (and definitely retired military and police dogs) don't just need exercise...they need jobs/objectives to achieve and schedule consistency. My work hours were wild for a while and my sheps did fine. They don't track time very well, all they knew was I left, I came home, and now it's time for them to do X, Y, then Z. If they do X at 6pm one night and at 8pm the next, that's cool. As long as they get to do it before they do Y.
thopkins22
08-25-11, 18:15
Good points...but some of us already have dogs and are speaking from experience. I should've mentioned, like you did, that certain breeds arent good for certain people/lifestyles. If you're on here researching firearms, I assume everyone would exercise the dame diligence when picking a dog for the aforementioned purpose(s)
I think Lewbowski and other GSD (and the like) owners would agree that they need rigid training and exercise, especially when younger. Some (and definitely retired military and police dogs) don't just need exercise...they need jobs/objectives to achieve and schedule consistency. My work hours were wild for a while and my sheps did fine. They don't track time very well, all they knew was I left, I came home, and now it's time for them to do X, Y, then Z. If they do X at 6pm one night and at 8pm the next, that's cool. As long as they get to do it before they do Y.
I think the advice is sound...for someone that is capable of giving X at some point every day. I've always owned German Shorthairs, but they're low on my list of dogs to recommend because they absolutely require exercise/stimulation/ability to perform their job every single day.
And certainly while structure is nice, dogs are fairly tolerant of varying schedules. But from the OP's own mouth,
Oh the size issue is the least of my worries. I just know our lifestyle, very busy and honestly I know I will not have the time to exercise a high energy dog like the Shepherd. I love shepherds, as all dogs; infact I cannot fathom "eating one" as was mentioned, so I would really feel bad not being able to work with/exercise/give the shepherds what they need and desire.
I know a guy with a Fila it is unbelievible around family & other animals, but an unreal guard dog. If he doesn't know you forget coming into the yard without the master's concent. So, in being honest with myself, laying around and "being watchful" is very much high on my list at this point in my life.
I don't think I made too far of a leap from reading that to assume that he wants a dog that will guard him, without all of the extra stuff that a working dog really needs.
THop, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Good post.
Bach and my DD
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/6b33d17b-1.jpg
Is Bach a black shepherd or a groenendael?
Is Bach a black shepherd or a groenendael?
he is a black shepherd...and he's got the biggest nuts you've ever seen on a dog. :big_boss:
ColdDeadHands
08-26-11, 07:51
he is a black shepherd...and he's got the biggest nuts you've ever seen on a dog. :big_boss:
:sarcastic:
Littlelebowski
08-26-11, 09:21
I think the advice is sound...for someone that is capable of giving X at some point every day. I've always owned German Shorthairs, but they're low on my list of dogs to recommend because they absolutely require exercise/stimulation/ability to perform their job every single day.
And certainly while structure is nice, dogs are fairly tolerant of varying schedules. But from the OP's own mouth,
I don't think I made too far of a leap from reading that to assume that he wants a dog that will guard him, without all of the extra stuff that a working dog really needs.
Also from the OP's mouth. Considering his favorable reaction to me suggesting adopting a GSD, I think the thread's current discussion isn't out of line, don't you?
Everyone knows dogs are among the best criminal deterrents one can get. In hard/bad times, I'm curious what breed you guys believe would serve a guard dog role best?
Littlelebowski
08-26-11, 09:28
Good points...but some of us already have dogs and are speaking from experience. I should've mentioned, like you did, that certain breeds arent good for certain people/lifestyles. If you're on here researching firearms, I assume everyone would exercise the dame diligence when picking a dog for the aforementioned purpose(s)
I think Lewbowski and other GSD (and the like) owners would agree that they need rigid training and exercise, especially when younger. Some (and definitely retired military and police dogs) don't just need exercise...they need jobs/objectives to achieve and schedule consistency. My work hours were wild for a while and my sheps did fine. They don't track time very well, all they knew was I left, I came home, and now it's time for them to do X, Y, then Z. If they do X at 6pm one night and at 8pm the next, that's cool. As long as they get to do it before they do Y.
Dead on. Everybody told me that Mal's (Belgian Malinois) are neurotic and not to be trusted around kids. My Mal was found on Craigslist and will NOT let another dog near my child. Everyday she happily crawls all over him. She tries to toss a ball for him (not very far, she's 13 months) and he fetches it and brings it back to her. That being said, a Mal is more work than a GSD and definitely a different personality. I don't recommend Mals to most folk and worry that people are going to make it a boutique breed like all of these idiots thinking they need a big Molosser type/Ovcharka to guard their house.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/IMAG0443.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/d2e557c7.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/IMAG0206.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/fbad8576.jpg
Mine. He's a good boy, follows even w/o a leash, and obeys commands. Mostly he likes to sleep and 'hang out' wherever I am.
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2789/doogie003.jpg
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8557/doogieedited1.jpg
Bad Medicine
08-26-11, 10:37
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee495/Derekmk23/250511_2067115478434_1261200998_2431025_6488169_n.jpg
My GSD just over a year old, I plan on enrolling him in the Schutzhund here in a couple of months.
eternal24k
08-26-11, 11:15
My current dog (Sampson) is a 120lb Cane Corso Mastiff/boxer mix, he is a fantastic loyal dog, can carry a load for hikes and is very well tempered while still being a great guard dog.
My last dog was an equally sized Rottweiler/Rhodesian Ridge Back mix (i prefer mixes), he was very good dog, great with children but more of a silent companion, liked to be at your side but with some space.
For SHTF, I would say a Shepherd/Rotty mix, my current mutt is great, but he is not that hardy when it comes to the cold. Depending on where you live that can be a big factor in SHTF, I only took Sampson on a couple winter hikes because of this. With my family experience, I think the Shepherd/Rotty mix would be a great all season dog.
ETA, I really like Rottweilers and Mastiffs because they can be active or lazy, but not take it out on you if you don't exercise them enough. The perfect dog IMHO can hike all day or nap all day, especially if they can nap on the lawn without worry of running away.
Dead on. Everybody told me that Mal's (Belgian Malinois) are neurotic and not to be trusted around kids. My Mal was found on Craigslist and will NOT let another dog near my child. Everyday she happily crawls all over him. She tries to toss a ball for him (not very far, she's 13 months) and he fetches it and brings it back to her. That being said, a Mal is more work than a GSD and definitely a different personality. I don't recommend Mals to most folk and worry that people are going to make it a boutique breed like all of these idiots thinking they need a big Molosser type/Ovcharka to guard their house.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/IMAG0443.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/d2e557c7.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/IMAG0206.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/fbad8576.jpg
I'll have to look into these...I like the short hair since every pooch I have now leaves tumbleweeds of fur/dander rolling across my floors :nono:
Littlelebowski
08-26-11, 12:05
Sheds less than a GSD by far but that is not saying much :D This is not the same as a GSD. Different personality. Workable and a good dog to be sure but a very different animal. More athletic than a GSD, more keyed up, less of a patrolling instinct.
Sheds less than a GSD by far but that is not saying much :D This is not the same as a GSD. Different personality. Workable and a good dog to be sure but a very different animal. More athletic than a GSD, more keyed up, less of a patrolling instinct.
I have to agree about Belgian Malinois not being for everybody. My experience is strictly with working Mals. They are a neurotic handful. Temperaments certainly vary. One of my co-workers mals is the friendliest dog you could imagine. Another Mal I have worked with will only tolerate her handler. She can not be pet by anyone else unless her mouth is occupied by a reward toy. She will not even acknowledge the handlers wife. They are the most strung out dogs I am aware of. That is one of the reasons they are such good working dogs. They certainly need purpose and direction. They are not low-maintenance.
prestonoconnor
09-04-11, 09:36
I am on my second bull terrier. The first one I had for 14 years, the second for the last five. I like to describe them as little big dogs. they weigh between 50 and 70 pounds. they are biting mofo's and very territorial/ protective. good luck getting in the house without "making friends". good family dogs, good with kids, high play drive with a large amount of "bulldog nap time" ie play hard then sleep, eat and repeat. the bad- they are dog aggressive and are getting expensive. I learned the hard way to keep them away from other peoples dogs. like this giant schnauzer that thought he would push my dog, schnauzer got head butted and ended up on its ass with the bullie holding onto its neck. that dog wanted to get into a pissing contest with every dog it met that was bigger than him. smaller dogs he just lifted his leg and pissed on them.
Stan_TheGunNut
09-07-11, 12:59
I don't know how good a guard dog she'd be in a SHTF scenario, but I'm absolutely convinced she's prevented my place from being broken into on at least two occassions. She's a bullmastiff, wieghs about 105 lbs, has a vicious sounding bark when she chooses to speak, and is the most gentle creature I have ever known.
She has wrestled some with other dogs, and generally she uses her weight to pin them. I've only seen her snap a couple of times. As I recall, bullmastiffs are a combination of bulldog and English Mastiff and were bred to guard against poaching. They generally remain silent and use their size and speed to put someone on the ground and pin them, but not maul them. Mine is also relatlively low maintenance. She has excelled as of late in ensuring the couch doesn't float away.
Waiting on a belly rub....
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x298/Stan_TheGunNut/IMG_1736.jpg
At the lake:
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x298/Stan_TheGunNut/IMG_1626.jpg
I've been really happy with our black mouth cur. A 'natural' herder and hunter, really good with children, extremely loyal, and always good about alerting us whenever someone farts within 100' of our house. :D It's also nice that the uninitiated think he's a 'vicious pit bull.' A breed that practically lives to gain your approval, they are quick learners and responds really well to subtle changes in the tone of your voice. Also socializes well with other dogs, and even cats. (Lizards, 'possum, rabbits, birds, and snakes haven't been as lucky...) Not the toughest guy on the dog block, but I think he covers the spectrum of family companion, guardian, and hunter nicely.
Brian:
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff122/jet1966/srsbsnsbrian-1.jpg
I can't not show Fred, our beagle/catahoula mix:
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff122/jet1966/attnwhrfred-1.jpg
He's a good dog, but not as much a natural guardian and hunter as the cur, but is quite the herder. Has a bay that raises the dead, too...
I've always loved German Shepherds (my grandparents bred them,) but they are not an option because of my allergies. My wife had one when we met, and it was a challenge due to that. (The dog died of old age, then we adopted these two.)
I raise Cane Corso as my breed of choice, so if anyone has questions about them in particular, I'd be glad to help. I'd post pictures of my boy Luca but I'm on my iPad so I can't right now.
GSD absolutely! I had them as guard dogs when I was serving in Yugo Army in 82-83. Mutual love and respect, excellent hearing and sense for protecting humans/property. The only bread that I will consider besides German is little known bread of sheppard dogs originally from South Serbia region - Sarplaninac. I had assigned a male that was about 140lbs, never barked but had a growl as deep as tiger and paws the size of ping-pong paddle. I looved that dog and he adopted me for a good 3 months I was serving at that location.
They grow bigger and heavier than GSD, are little less intelligent but once trained - they remember their duties for life. In the mountains of Balkans they are known as only dog that will charge pack of wolfs to protect owner/sheep herd and to get out of that fight as winners. They have very thick coat that protects them from wolf's bite, but it's their character of fighter that is second to none. You see that dog charge and fight - you know that is the way you should fight too. And as soon as fight is over, that same dog will go and babysit your little kid as if nothing happened.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Sardog.jpg(Photo is from Wikipedia)
DeltaSierra
09-24-11, 21:10
GSD absolutely! I had them as guard dogs when I was serving in Yugo Army in 82-83. Mutual love and respect, excellent hearing and sense for protecting humans/property. The only bread that I will consider besides German is little known bread of sheppard dogs originally from South Serbia region - Sarplaninac. I had assigned a male that was about 140lbs, never barked but had a growl as deep as tiger and paws the size of ping-pong paddle. I looved that dog and he adopted me for a good 3 months I was serving at that location.
They grow bigger and heavier than GSD, are little less intelligent but once trained - they remember their duties for life. In the mountains of Balkans they are known as only dog that will charge pack of wolfs to protect owner/sheep herd and to get out of that fight as winners. They have very thick coat that protects them from wolf's bite, but it's their character of fighter that is second to none. You see that dog charge and fight - you know that is the way you should fight too. And as soon as fight is over, that same dog will go and babysit your little kid as if nothing happened.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Sardog.jpg(Photo is from Wikipedia)
I'm interested in this breed, and don't know where to find any trustworthy breeders.
This place (http://www.sharakennel.net/index.html) looks interesting.
Any suggestions?
DeltaSierra,I'd be interested in what you find out please.The thing that concerns me with rare breeds in the limited gene pool.There are other Mastiff/Guardian breeds that may be similar.
DeltaSierra
09-24-11, 22:52
DeltaSierra,I'd be interested in what you find out please.The thing that concerns me with rare breeds in the limited gene pool.There are other Mastiff/Guardian breeds that may be similar.
I'm definitely going to research this option.
As with any other animals (or crops) I prefer heritage strains, and this breed looks fairly promising...
I'll let you know what I find out...
Thank you.Theres always the option,thou costly is importing a dog,something GSD lovers have been doing for a while.
I raise Cane Corso as my breed of choice, so if anyone has questions about them in particular, I'd be glad to help. I'd post pictures of my boy Luca but I'm on my iPad so I can't right now.
Do you breed them? Either way def post pics, I'm a big Corso fan
The most loyal dogs are usually mutts... IMO
So true. Some of the best dogs I've ever had were mutts my dad found around his workplace that he brought home.
Rommel is 5 and has been the best dog I have ever owned and I have owned a bunch. He has been fiercely protective of the house and yard since he got out of his goofy puppy stage and when I am away (hunting, business, etc.) my wife swears his pack instinct kicks in as he assumes the alpha role in my absence. He is loyal to a fault, obedient a dog as I have ever had the pleasure to be around, and is social with humans and dogs alike once they are repeat customers. Shedding is an issue but his intelligence and drive to please are second to none. Get a GSD and you will not regret it. I would have no issue if SHTF strolling with him as he is 80lb's of deterrence.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x323/MJLMAN80/5-14-11040.jpg
My dog right now is a Boxer mix, about 60 lbs, very loyal and friendly, but protective when he feels a threat is about. I've always been a big supporter of German Shepherds, I was around them all the time as a kid. One thing to remember when choosing a breed is the climate where you live. In the mountains of West Virginia where I live a Dogo Argentino wouldn't be the best because they are very short haired and we have cold winters, likewise a Malamute may not be the best because we also have hot, humid summers. Choose something you are going to like having and will pay attention to, and consider your climate/living situation.
Chesapeake Bay Retriever. Very loyal and protective. In a SHTF situation they can easily guard property of lives. Also the added benefit of being a hunting dog. I've been around quite a few of them and a Chessie will be my next dog.
I absolutely disagree. Size doesn't mean shit. Get a breed with a natural patrolling instinct coupled with a genetic predisposition to guard its master, master's family, and property. A German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois. Don't consider these breeds if "laying around" is high on your list of priorities though.
Don't agree size doesn't mean shit. A mean large dog will always tear apart a mean small dog. Haven't head of any wolverine or badger killing grown bear lately.
Don't agree size doesn't mean shit. A mean large dog will always tear apart a mean small dog. Haven't head of any wolverine or badger killing grown bear lately.
Bad argument there Airhasz. Also, it should be mentioned that smaller dogs require much less food than larger breeds a definite plus in a SHTF type event. A medium sized dog breed like the Rhodesian Ridgeback, Belgian Malinois, Austrian Shepherd, Border Collie, Poodle (I know I am going to catch flak for that later), German Shepherd, or other similar breed would be my personal choice.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g235/scottwolverine1111/wolverinepolarbear.jpg
My rottweiler/american bulldog mix loves everybody, unless she doesn't you. Friendly but strong with a fierce bark.
GSD absolutely! I had them as guard dogs when I was serving in Yugo Army in 82-83. Mutual love and respect, excellent hearing and sense for protecting humans/property. The only bread that I will consider besides German is little known bread of sheppard dogs originally from South Serbia region - Sarplaninac. I had assigned a male that was about 140lbs, never barked but had a growl as deep as tiger and paws the size of ping-pong paddle. I looved that dog and he adopted me for a good 3 months I was serving at that location.
They grow bigger and heavier than GSD, are little less intelligent but once trained - they remember their duties for life. In the mountains of Balkans they are known as only dog that will charge pack of wolfs to protect owner/sheep herd and to get out of that fight as winners. They have very thick coat that protects them from wolf's bite, but it's their character of fighter that is second to none. You see that dog charge and fight - you know that is the way you should fight too. And as soon as fight is over, that same dog will go and babysit your little kid as if nothing happened.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Sardog.jpg(Photo is from Wikipedia)
If you are interested the name of this dog is the caucasian ovcharka. These dogs are naturally aggressive, and do not require training to a protect as others do. There are only a few breaders. One of the only breaders has a video from discovery. Go to YouTube and search for caucasian shepherd or caucasian mountain dog. The video is by petlove19k.
I have been looking into one since my buddy got one about 7 years ago. The video is one of the most informative. Once i get the space i Will have one.
[QUOTE=BH321;1488829]Bad argument there Airhasz.
Exception to every rule...;)
Littlelebowski
01-02-13, 04:51
Don't agree size doesn't mean shit. A mean large dog will always tear apart a mean small dog. Haven't head of any wolverine or badger killing grown bear lately.
Yes, if you are dogfighting, happy? As far as the bear, that's even more moronic than the point about dog fighting.
Yes, if you are dogfighting, happy? As far as the bear, that's even more moronic than the point about dog fighting.
Why so rude? I wasn't rude to you. Being wrong or mistaken does not make one a moron. You seem angry on a lot of posts, maybe lighten up a little..
Littlelebowski
01-02-13, 06:30
Why so rude? I wasn't rude to you. Being wrong or mistaken does not make one a moron. You seem angry on a lot of posts, maybe lighten up a little..
Because you made no sense. Read the focus of this thread and larger breeds for winning dogfights as a "SHTF/GUARD DOG BREED?" (I'm helping you out with reposting the title of this thread.)
If you have literally nothing to add.....don't.
Littlelebowski
01-02-13, 06:42
Little man syndrome
Yes, that must be it.
offenbacher
01-02-13, 07:31
Ya know, Russophiles were going on and on about the Black Russian Terrier and how great it was. Turned out to be a lot of hype and during the bombing in Moscow, the police were seen using German Shepherds. I talked to one handler that tried the BRT and he said it was not anywhere close to a Malinois or GSD
You dont have to be a Russophile to favor the Black Russian Terrier( BRT) over the GSD or Malino because they are breed to do different things .
Yes the Red Army made the BRT as their all in one working dog , but they faild.
After that the Army went back to GSD and more traditional breeds and the BRT became Civilian Guard and copmpanian Dogs and thats were they are good at.
If you have Time to train them , they are wonderfull Dogs and i love mine. They need gromming weekly , they are 100 to 160 lbs, they are very powerfull and not akzept diferent Handlers but will defend their pack and Territory brutaly effektiv.
They are in use in russian prisons because they plant fear in the hearts of inmats , by biting necks and Faces first .
Something that will not fit into civilrights concernd Western prison Systems , and I do tend to respekt this.
Living in Germany and working with proffesional Doghandlers regulary I will put it this way: there is no perfekt Breed for all tasks , Size will help but finding a good Dog is more then finding a Breed . If you want to share your Life and home with a Dog , go for it, if Shtf and Crime is your main Concern, think about an alarm System with Solar Panels .
Sorry for my poor use of the english Language , it is the Reason i am an only Reader at this fine Forum
Offenbacher
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/03/5epe8y9a.jpg
Littlelebowski
01-02-13, 08:23
You dont have to be a Russophile to favor the Black Russian Terrier( BRT) over the GSD or Malino because they are breed to do different things .
Yes the Red Army made the BRT as their all in one working dog , but they faild.
After that the Army went back to GSD and more traditional breeds and the BRT became Civilian Guard and copmpanian Dogs and thats were they are good at.
If you have Time to train them , they are wonderfull Dogs and i love mine. They need gromming weekly , they are 100 to 160 lbs, they are very powerfull and not akzept diferent Handlers but will defend their pack and Territory brutaly effektiv.
They are in use in russian prisons because they plant fear in the hearts of inmats , by biting necks and Faces first .
Something that will not fit into civilrights concernd Western prison Systems , and I do tend to respekt this.
Living in Germany and working with proffesional Doghandlers regulary I will put it this way: there is no perfekt Breed for all tasks , Size will help but finding a good Dog is more then finding a Breed . If you want to share your Life and home with a Dog , go for it, if Shtf and Crime is your main Concern, think about an alarm System with Solar Panels .
Sorry for my poor use of the english Language , it is the Reason i am an only Reader at this fine Forum
Offenbacher
Excellent and informative post, thank you.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee239/rob1bike/IMG_20121230_160813.jpg
GSD makes a great purpose animal. This is Zane, he's only 10 months. But his drive is solid,not over the top. Good with our kids,hasn't eaten the cat. He has his CGC, started bit work at 6-7 months. He's still on the tug and puppy sleeve. He dictated his level of progression. No pressure. I feel it develops a mentally together dog. I don't need or want a H3 animal
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee239/rob1bike/IMG_20121229_205806.jpg
This is Willis, Mali/mix. This is his off switch, he will cuddle with the kids for hours. He rarely barks. However he will chase and kill anything that runs. Up to deer, he's chased but not caught one.
We also have a female gsd/pit mix. She has a over the top ball drive, and a great alert. But she would cower if threatened. But her alert is fierce.
This thread is dog show and tell thread...sorta
Any working breed can protect or at least alert. You cannot think that your dog that barks at the door or strangers would attack or attack on command. That, in most dogs involves serious training. Most dogs would cower, or back away and bark. It takes training and a dog wired to handle it. If you force your dog into protection work when he's not ready you will fry your dog.
joesmithz28
01-03-13, 20:36
Great post Rob. The average person in any type of survival situation(shtf, home invasion, etc) can only count on a good dog to alert with enough time and ferocity to allow you to arm and defend. Very few dogs will be sufficient defenders without significant training that most people don't begin to consider.
I will take my GSD anytime in the above situations. She sounds mean as hell on alert, but it's my job to attack/disable an intruder not hers.
John Woods
01-23-13, 11:39
I have 6 dogs and 2 are pitbulls and they love peolple and suck to guard anything and my Female american bulldog is 130lbs and she is the meanest dog she loves my kids but bring a stranger over she's not to happy , she has problems...
My family had the most amazing junkyard Bull Mastiff. If you've ever seen the movie Turner in Hooch, you have an idea of what I'm talking about. 185lbs with an overbite that gave him a snaggle tooth. While he was the sweetest dog, he was protective enough of the family that I would have felt safe letting my 8 year old walk through a prison yard with the dog beside him. Unfortunately, we discovered the hard way that 50% of Mastiffs contract cancer before they reach maturity. I would own another Mastiff in a heartbeat, but it is something to consider.
I love German shepherds and think they make awesome guard dogs. I don't know if anyone has proposed this but pit bulls make awesome bodyguards and decent guard dogs. They are extremely loyal, love being in the company of people, and are great with children if you start them early. The other good thing about them is that if SHTF, everyone will still see them as vicious beasts and give them wide berth. Plus, they would be cheaper and easier to source than any of the other exotic breeds proposed and not plagued with too many genetic anomalies.
Littlelebowski
02-03-13, 18:05
I love German shepherds and think they make awesome guard dogs. I don't know if anyone has proposed this but pit bulls make awesome bodyguards and decent guard dogs. They are extremely loyal, love being in the company of people, and are great with children if you start them early. The other good thing about them is that if SHTF, everyone will still see them as vicious beasts and give them wide berth. Plus, they would be cheaper and easier to source than any of the other exotic breeds proposed and not plagued with too many genetic anomalies.
Not to mention your homeowner's insurance may not cover your liability with them.
Well it's not a problem with mine. Guess it depends on who you have. I have a female pit bull, a Bassett hound and a golden retriever puppy. We used to have an older golden but he died of lupus complications :( now he was a really good guard dog. Big, too
Littlelebowski
02-03-13, 18:08
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070910101803AANVwaW
Like I said, I guess it depends on who you have
DocCasualty
02-03-13, 21:09
West German working blood line German Shepherd.
^^^^^^^^^This.
There is a local breeder of these "German" German Shepherds and I know two families that have one, otherwise unrelated. These are amongst the most intelligent dogs I have ever known. Beyond the basic puppy training, neither of these dogs have received more and they are awesome. Intuitive is the best word that comes to mind. Territorial, bark to alert, impressive by their presence and great family dogs. It would be hard to do better IMO.
For a smaller dog, my vote would go to an Australian Cattle Dog. Super smart though they require a lot of intensive training and ongoing attention. Otherwise their attributes mirror the German Shepherds to a large extent but in a smaller package.
I'll echo the vote for a GSD. While I don't have experience with well breed dogs, as all of mine are muts, here are some observations from my own personal experieinces.
Dog 1 - Shitzu. She is very alert and in tune to surroundings and is a great alarm dog.
Dog 2 - Golden Retriever / Austrailian Shepherd mix. Here's an example like someone else mentioned of variance within a breed. He looks 100% Golden Retriver, but has no interest in retrieving anything. He herds people well. He barks when the others bark, is loyal, but not very concerned with his surroundings.
Dog 3 - Anatolian Shepherd mix. She's very alert to her surroundings, and always positions herself between wife and new people. Very protective and alert. And independent and stubborn.
Dog 4 - GSD / Lab mix. GSD black and tan with lab ears. She is a natural 'guard dog'. You can tell she is always naturally 'watching'. She always sits where she can see the approach. In the middle of the nigh she is moving through the house, or in the corner watching the property. She's very smart, very intuitive, gentle, feroucious, etc. If she hears a noise she's not familiar with she goes to investigate, rather than bark like the other dogs. If something is there and threatening (elk, car, person) she barks, if it's nothing she sits and watches.
As someone else mentioned, pay particular attention to your climate. I had a doberman and love the breed, but they are far too cold natured for my location. I have never seen my GSD mix appear cold, and we've been out in the minus double digit temperatures.
When the sad day comes to replace any of them, I will be looking for a good breeder and a GSD.
GSD. Without question. Or Mali
.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee239/rob1bike/IMG_20130112_074649.jpg
Another mouth to feed. Dont.get me wrong, I like dogs and have one. But if shtf for more than two weeks...or her food supply on hand runs out then she is of no concern to me.
If you need a dog for a shtf scenario remember to prep for the dog as well. Food, flea/tick treatments..water.
Realize that unless you train it. The odds that your awesome guard dog will fight and actually work is slim. Luck plays a role. A bad enough guy will walk right through a untrained barking dog. That bark isn't necessarily guarding. Its fear and a bluff.
The Shep in that post is 11 months old. He just graduated tons bite sleeve ,will guard on command and chase the decoy. But he's been training since 3 months old. You could still walk through him at this point.
We have a Mali that has insane prey drive and over the top fight drive, he kills the tug and flirt pole. He will not bite the sleeve on the decoy. His nerves aren't good. Great pet,awesome with kids, kills rabbits like crazy...sucks as a defensive dog.
Here is my 2 cents.
I have been around dogs all my life...I will say this...any large canine will protect you in any situation.
My GSD- we did some bite work with her and some Hungarian lang training for attack commands...Sandra was one of the best family dogs ever...she would protect anyone and anything that was around us. She would let you know who was the boss on this property...
My Lab- she is the sweetest most lovable dog EVER...she loves to play with ANYONE, BUT...this is the big but...she senses bad people. I kid you not I had a "gangbanger looking guy" come towards me. My lab (has zero protective training) steps in front of me...and makes this loud growl like get away from my owner. Another time, I was 600 miles away. My wife was home alone, she was taking my dog out. A random truck pulls up the driveway a guy gets out...my wife is about 50 yards away from the house...guy yells something...my Lab again takes a defensive position in front of my wife and the same deep growl/hair standing deterrent to protect my wife....
Bottom line...canines who are loved and taken care for will take care of you no matter what...no matter what...remember this...if you raise a dog...that dog is part of your everyday routine...YOU HAVE TO MAKE TIME...I exercise my dog at least 1-2hrs a day...I will stay up late if that is what it means...ITS A RESPONSIBILITY
thopkins22
02-04-13, 21:38
I have been around dogs all my life...I will say this...any large canine will protect you in any situation....My Lab- she is the sweetest most lovable dog EVER...she loves to play with ANYONE, BUT...this is the big but...she senses bad people. I kid you not I had a "gangbanger looking guy" come towards me. My lab (has zero protective training) steps in front of me...and makes this loud growl like get away from my owner. Another time, I was 600 miles away. My wife was home alone, she was taking my dog out. A random truck pulls up the driveway a guy gets out...my wife is about 50 yards away from the house...guy yells something...my Lab again takes a defensive position in front of my wife and the same deep growl/hair standing deterrent to protect my wife..../[QUOTE]. They'll growl and give a furious bark, but switching to aggression really does require work and training. My GSP absolutely hates homeless people and sounds furious...I doubt he'd continue escalating though. Generally getting loud is all that it takes so I'm not remotely concerned. He's remarkably gentle with the exception of street people and I want him to be.
[QUOTE=thehun;1534957]Bottom line...canines who are loved and taken care for will take care of you no matter what...no matter what...remember this...if you raise a dog...that dog is part of your everyday routine...YOU HAVE TO MAKE TIME...I exercise my dog at least 1-2hrs a day...I will stay up late if that is what it means...ITS A RESPONSIBILITYDitto on the exercise and love.
The last quote is the gospel. Rain cold heat, a tired dog is a happy dog and really limits behaviour problems.
Littlelebowski
02-05-13, 06:40
Another mouth to feed. Dont.get me wrong, I like dogs and have one. But if shtf for more than two weeks...or her food supply on hand runs out then she is of no concern to me.
If you need a dog for a shtf scenario remember to prep for the dog as well. Food, flea/tick treatments..water.
Meh. Dogs are omnivorous. I don't think you've lived with a real guard dog because those of us that have realize what an asset an animal like this is. Flea and tick treatments nowadays last months at a time and being able to sleep instead of having to be on watch is a huge plus.
DocCasualty
02-05-13, 08:35
being able to sleep instead of having to be on watch is a huge plus.
And the simple deterrence the presence of a dog provides cannot be underestimated either.
MrRightWing
02-05-13, 08:58
I would say a German Shepherd or a Rottweiler. Both are very trainable guard dogs and can be loving family dogs as well.
In a bad situation...a dog can hunt and find food...shoot my Lab does that already...she is always sniffing for a meal :) Especially rabbits
I really hope LL chimes in here with his voice of experience. I find myself prospecting for another dog at this time as my Kelpie's time is coming to a close. Fourteen wonderful years as my best friend and my best protector. Never seen such a little dog with so much "natural" protectiveness. She was my go to cattle dog and has taken three bites (on humans, and too many to number on cattle) to save my ass. Simply the best!
However, I find myself wanting either another GSD or possibly trying a Mal. My prior GSD was overall the best dog I ever had. I live on a section, fenced yard and lots of time and inclination to train. I have owned a Giant Schnauzer, a GSD, a rotti, and continue to own a female British lab for bird hunting. I have trained Schutzhund dogs before, and have laid a lot of track and done a ton of sleeve work for my K9 LE friends.
I would like some one with actual experience with both breeds to explain the following differences:
1. Temperment, I have owned a GSD, and have spent a some time with other peoples Mals, but have never had to live with one.
2. Training ability, how long it takes a Mal to "get it"?
3. Home Life, will a Mal switch it off and just be fun, or are they just constantly on?
4. And anything else I might have forgotten to ask.
I am considering adopting a MWD, but am not sure the 12 month wait is going to work for me.
Thank you in advance for all of your help.
Here is what I learned when I helped out our K9 unit.
Mal's are stupid high drive...insane...they have to be worked all the time
Mal's are very easy to train...IF you train them properly and consistently
Mal's have great temper control for the most part...its like a GSD but just a bit more on crack :sarcastic:
Example- two dogs at my former dept.
One is a bomb/drug dog...she will bite if needed...super gentle and easy going, she is also the DARE dog
The other is driven by hard work...this dog is a machine...but you can still go up to him and pet him until his in the drive. Once he is in the "drive" he locked on and he only means business (best backup dog when things go sour in the world)
Mal's are loyal no doubt...just like any large canine...but they do require more work.
Again...I cannot stress that YOU have more to do about WHAT your dog will do than the actual breed....the breed just makes it EASIER for you to know where to start and give you basic knowledge.
Its like an AR15...its a tool...a 5000 dollar custom gun will not make you shoot any better during a situation than a 700 dollar DPMS if you have never ever trained.
I really hope LL chimes in here with his voice of experience. I find myself prospecting for another dog at this time as my Kelpie's time is coming to a close. Fourteen wonderful years as my best friend and my best protector. Never seen such a little dog with so much "natural" protectiveness. She was my go to cattle dog and has taken three bites (on humans, and too many to number on cattle) to save my ass. Simply the best!
However, I find myself wanting either another GSD or possibly trying a Mal. My prior GSD was overall the best dog I ever had. I live on a section, fenced yard and lots of time and inclination to train. I have owned a Giant Schnauzer, a GSD, a rotti, and continue to own a female British lab for bird hunting. I have trained Schutzhund dogs before, and have laid a lot of track and done a ton of sleeve work for my K9 LE friends.
I would like some one with actual experience with both breeds to explain the following differences:
1. Temperment, I have owned a GSD, and have spent a some time with other peoples Mals, but have never had to live with one.
2. Training ability, how long it takes a Mal to "get it"?
3. Home Life, will a Mal switch it off and just be fun, or are they just constantly on?
4. And anything else I might have forgotten to ask.
I am considering adopting a MWD, but am not sure the 12 month wait is going to work for me.
Thank you in advance for all of your help.
A Mali can be just as great as a gsd with a few plus and minus.
Most malis have so much drive any bite work is second nature. They "get that". Its the off switch that you want. So many are breed with so much drive they don't shut off.
A couple brings a 9 month old female to where I train. Not sure of the breeder, in Michigan I think. Any way she is a spitfire. Sweet and loving, good with the other dogs, good with the kids. Flips on her back for a belly rub...as soon as she sees the decoy with the suit she goes CRAZY!!! None stop barking.
Her bite is hard and full. Good targeting, over the top focus. Even when tired she still just goes. Over tables and barriers, through a car. Nothing stops her.
If you've had a gsd they are very similar but with a couple big differences. Just watch the breeding temperament unless you can work em daily.
Littlelebowski
02-06-13, 06:20
I really hope LL chimes in here with his voice of experience. I find myself prospecting for another dog at this time as my Kelpie's time is coming to a close. Fourteen wonderful years as my best friend and my best protector. Never seen such a little dog with so much "natural" protectiveness. She was my go to cattle dog and has taken three bites (on humans, and too many to number on cattle) to save my ass. Simply the best!
However, I find myself wanting either another GSD or possibly trying a Mal. My prior GSD was overall the best dog I ever had. I live on a section, fenced yard and lots of time and inclination to train. I have owned a Giant Schnauzer, a GSD, a rotti, and continue to own a female British lab for bird hunting. I have trained Schutzhund dogs before, and have laid a lot of track and done a ton of sleeve work for my K9 LE friends.
I would like some one with actual experience with both breeds to explain the following differences:
1. Temperment, I have owned a GSD, and have spent a some time with other peoples Mals, but have never had to live with one.
2. Training ability, how long it takes a Mal to "get it"?
3. Home Life, will a Mal switch it off and just be fun, or are they just constantly on?
4. And anything else I might have forgotten to ask.
I am considering adopting a MWD, but am not sure the 12 month wait is going to work for me.
Thank you in advance for all of your help.
1. Mals are like guided missiles. They need launched and guided but once en route are devastating. That translates to how they behave day to day in that they need something to do and/or someone to be around. Very wound up; everything is done with gusto. When I get up out of bed in the morning, my Mal jumps up and runs. He does this nearly every time I move. My Mal is also one of the best dogs with children that I have ever seen. Mals can have obsessive behavior traits if not mentally stimulated (my dog likes bite work and rough play more than running). If you see obsessive behavior (my Mal likes to steal and eat socks and then barf them up), it's time to do more with the dog. Honestly, I much prefer GSD temperament to Mals. A Mal is a guided missile, a GSD is an autonomous, patrolling, furry Terminator. Much calmer. You can definitely do more with a good Mal though insofar as training.
2. Easy as hell to train. Smart. Get one with a high food drive and you can teach it to recite Shakespeare in Mandarin.
3. Mine and another forum member's (IRISH) both have high bite drives with bite training. Both dogs let kids sit on them and both endure a lot from the kids with unblinking calm. However, my dog is watchful of strangers (as he should be) but absolutely will NOT tolerate a strange dog near the kids. "Will not tolerate" means "sudden knockdown/dominance." A few bumbling Labs have learned this the hard way. So....yeah, the breed absolutely does switch it off at home but the switch is very easy to trip.
4. I'd rather have a good GSD but if you have the time, a Mal can be infinitely rewarding. They are far more athletic than most modern GSD's, shed less, and are easier to train.
If you must have a mal www.loganhauskennels.com is a good choice. Some of his wash outs turn into incredible dogs. Which he gives away. Mike cares about his dogs.
Thanks a lot for all of the voices of experience, I appreciate the honesty.
So let me get this straight in my head, as I have gleaned from the responses. I believe I want either a GSD with the drive and trainability of a Mal, or a Mal with the personality of a good GSD.:smile: At this point I have to lean toward a good GSD, possibly from Chech lines, unless someone can point me towards a domestic breeder with guaranteed good hips and ability.
However, if I could find a good tractable Mal, I wouldn't rule him out.
RobfromSC, thanks for the link, I am going to give him a call.
grunt soldier
02-06-13, 23:56
I have a cane corso and GSD. I got both of them for when I'm away and the old lady and kid are home alone. the cane corso is a monster. amazing dog. very smart, easily trainable and looks like a giant pitbull lol. he is super protective of the wife and kid. has a high drive while outside but probably the calmest dog in the world inside. curls up in a ball at your feet and just sleeps. awesome dogs. catches rabbits and squirrels on a regular basis.
My GSD is awesome but his drive is stupid. extremely smart and crazy loyal. but he is always switched on it seems. If I get up and move in the house he automatically jumps up and runs to the door wanting to go out. not a huge deal but annoying at times lol. during the summer while I'm out in the garden he will literally chase flying bugs for hours on end never taking a break except to drink water. if he isn't chasing bugs he runs the perimeter of my yard constantly. he is my daughters best buddy. sleeps at her feet all night and will not tolerate any hostile actions towards her. I actually have to watch out if I'm punishing her because he doesn't like it.
I had a rottie to for a long time and she was the smartest dog I have ever had. easily trainable but had a lot less energy than the GSD. I would have no problem for end of world being with a rottie.
Thanks a lot for all of the voices of experience, I appreciate the honesty.
So let me get this straight in my head, as I have gleaned from the responses. I believe I want either a GSD with the drive and trainability of a Mal, or a Mal with the personality of a good GSD.:smile: At this point I have to lean toward a good GSD, possibly from Chech lines, unless someone can point me towards a domestic breeder with guaranteed good hips and ability.
However, if I could find a good tractable Mal, I wouldn't rule him out.
RobfromSC, thanks for the link, I am going to give him a call.
Just as a fyi we have a Mali and he's a mix, guessing lab or golden... but he has zero protection drive and if you raise your voice he slinks away. However he kills rabbits and squirrels like there's no tomorrow. Great drive on the tug and soft sleeve, but no nerves.
Its all very breed dependent. Or breeding dependent. Earlier on experiences can also shape and mold him/her. Both of those breeds have a high food drive so it makes training a snap.
Just stay positive, small steps, add distractions . If the dog gets frustrated,go backwards to easier stuff.
Littlelebowski
02-07-13, 06:45
Thanks a lot for all of the voices of experience, I appreciate the honesty.
So let me get this straight in my head, as I have gleaned from the responses. I believe I want either a GSD with the drive and trainability of a Mal, or a Mal with the personality of a good GSD.:smile: At this point I have to lean toward a good GSD, possibly from Chech lines, unless someone can point me towards a domestic breeder with guaranteed good hips and ability.
However, if I could find a good tractable Mal, I wouldn't rule him out.
RobfromSC, thanks for the link, I am going to give him a call.
You nailed it! Czech or East German bloodline GSD is the way to go.
Littlelebowski
02-07-13, 06:46
Just as a fyi we have a Mali and he's a mix, guessing lab or golden... but he has zero protection drive and if you raise your voice he slinks away. However he kills rabbits and squirrels like there's no tomorrow. Great drive on the tug and soft sleeve, but no nerves.
Its all very breed dependent. Or breeding dependent. Earlier on experiences can also shape and mold him/her. Both of those breeds have a high food drive so it makes training a snap.
Just stay positive, small steps, add distractions . If the dog gets frustrated,go backwards to easier stuff.
My Mal defines "good nerves." When he's on bite, he gets kicked, whacked, everything (not hard) and he just ignores, hangs on, and growls. Good with kids and people but man, when the switch is thrown, he is ON.
My Mal defines "good nerves." When he's on bite, he gets kicked, whacked, everything (not hard) and he just ignores, hangs on, and growls. Good with kids and people but man, when the switch is thrown, he is ON.
That's it! Classic mali. Bleeding and still tugging. Our gsd is getting there...kinda. I think his downfall is he's so observant. He notices every movement every change.
All that said, and sticking with the thread, I don't think a over the top H3, titled dog would be any better than a well rounded protection TRAINED dog in a shtf situation. Note trained.
Littlelebowski
02-07-13, 08:03
German Shepherds "watch and wait....." :D
I love my Mal but GSDs are my favorite by far. Here's a couple from a bloodline I hope to own a specimen of in the future. Talk about intimidating.....
http://www.ehretgsd.com/luke6629.jpg
http://www.ehretgsd.com/pike052910a.jpg
I'm not suggesting anything different... But had to comment on the line below about the dog eating socks then barfing them up.
I was raised with Airedales so my daughter has an Oorang. He's more a big (120lb) goof than anything but highly protective of the family. My son brought his dobie over and tried to assert dominance. This was interesting as the Airedale wanted to play, the dobie not so much. When Airedale finally figured it out they went at it, the dobie got body slammed, breath knocked out of him and that was that.
Anyway, the Airedale likes to eat womens panties (dirty of course) then shits them out later. Now that's a man's dog there!
1. Mals are like guided missiles. They need launched and guided but once en route are devastating. That translates to how they behave day to day in that they need something to do and/or someone to be around. Very wound up; everything is done with gusto. When I get up out of bed in the morning, my Mal jumps up and runs. He does this nearly every time I move. My Mal is also one of the best dogs with children that I have ever seen. Mals can have obsessive behavior traits if not mentally stimulated (my dog likes bite work and rough play more than running). If you see obsessive behavior (my Mal likes to steal and eat socks and then barf them up), it's time to do more with the dog. Honestly, I much prefer GSD temperament to Mals. A Mal is a guided missile, a GSD is an autonomous, patrolling, furry Terminator. Much calmer. You can definitely do more with a good Mal though insofar as training.
2. Easy as hell to train. Smart. Get one with a high food drive and you can teach it to recite Shakespeare in Mandarin.
3. Mine and another forum member's (IRISH) both have high bite drives with bite training. Both dogs let kids sit on them and both endure a lot from the kids with unblinking calm. However, my dog is watchful of strangers (as he should be) but absolutely will NOT tolerate a strange dog near the kids. "Will not tolerate" means "sudden knockdown/dominance." A few bumbling Labs have learned this the hard way. So....yeah, the breed absolutely does switch it off at home but the switch is very easy to trip.
4. I'd rather have a good GSD but if you have the time, a Mal can be infinitely rewarding. They are far more athletic than most modern GSD's, shed less, and are easier to train.
Thanks a lot for all of the voices of experience, I appreciate the honesty.
So let me get this straight in my head, as I have gleaned from the responses. I believe I want either a GSD with the drive and trainability of a Mal, or a Mal with the personality of a good GSD.:smile: At this point I have to lean toward a good GSD, possibly from Chech lines, unless someone can point me towards a domestic breeder with guaranteed good hips and ability.
However, if I could find a good tractable Mal, I wouldn't rule him out.
RobfromSC, thanks for the link, I am going to give him a call.
Heads up, Mike posted on his Facebook page that he has a washout 5 month old female free to a GOOD home. His washouts are typically great family dogs. They go fast if not gone now
Littlelebowski
02-08-13, 08:06
Heads up, Mike posted on his Facebook page that he has a washout 5 month old female free to a GOOD home. His washouts are typically great family dogs. They go fast if not gone now
Somebody jump on this.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
Heads up, Mike posted on his Facebook page that he has a washout 5 month old female free to a GOOD home. His washouts are typically great family dogs. They go fast if not gone now
robfromsc, thanks for the heads up. I reached out to Mike this morning, she had already been placed. So now I have to do something I swore I would never do, pay attention to FaceBook! Maybe I get lucky next time.
Littlelebowski
02-08-13, 09:17
As a reminder, I found my Mal and my last GSD on Craigslist. Look around.....
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trappernanabg19
02-08-13, 10:08
We found our "Nana" (I know not a scary name, but she is a girl) at the local pet rescue. She is half Black Lab and half Great Dane, she' s HUGE. She also has a bark that " rattles the windows".
All our dogs are rescues or have been surrendered to us. You don't have to spend $ to get a good dog and spending $ doesn't guarantee a good dog.
Again on mikes washouts...he typically sells his dogs for 5k-11k. Which obviously would be agency level performers. A washout might not have steel nerves or some other odd characteristics, but would make a fine personal pet with working tendencies.
Just remember, working lines are a pain in the ass. They HAVE to get physical and mental stimulation or you get problems. Walks, obedience and a job.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Japanese Akitas. I used to live in a low rent area of Cleveland where every gangster wannabe had some big, abused, neglected Pit Bull, Rotty, Doby etc. She was the runt of the litter and ended up around 90 lbs, but none of them would mess with her when we got close. Had a loose Pit Bull attack us from behind - I turned around, froze, dropped the leash (everything in slo-motion) only to see her step in front of me, sit down & wait for the PB to attack. After a long running start, the PB went airborne, she stood her ground untill the last second - slapped him sideways in the head enough to spin him 180 degrees around & then proceded to tear his ass off. The look on the owners face was pricless as his (bad ass) dog ran screaming up his front porch steps into the house.
Akira was perfect around children & seemed to be really courious around infants - some of the neighbor hood kids used to try and ride her around like a horse and she didn't mind at all. Never felt the need to have dog lawyer in my rolodex.
Considering the Japanese Shoguns used Akitas to guard their children against Ninja attacks & would take them hunting so they could tree a bear for the shoguns arrows - I'd be pretty happy with another one... (She died a few years ago)
Right now (with their permission) I'm living with the 2 meanist sons-of-bitches in the hood - Min-Pins. They're gettin a little older now, but I've never seen such a dedication to guard duty before - they're never off the clock (unless they're buried beneith the bed covers). I wouldn't trust them around children at this point, but nobody, including the mailman they've known for 11 years, gets near our yard with out them trying to tear down the chain link fence.
FChen17213
02-22-13, 20:45
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h115/FChen17213/AfricanBeauty.jpg
She would be a great deterrent to burglars. A beautiful beautiful girl too. :)
I just got myself a german shepard for the house and shtf..
DocCasualty
02-23-13, 01:21
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h115/FChen17213/AfricanBeauty.jpg
She would be a great deterrent to burglars. A beautiful beautiful girl too. :)
:hmm: Can't disagree though I think she is disqualified as a dog breed.
FChen17213
02-23-13, 02:25
You are right. Panthera Leo is not Canis Familiaris. That being said, Panthera Leo is also a very social species that lives in packs (or prides) just like Canis Lupus and Canis Familiaris.
I still think the Alsatian (GSD) is the standard classic gold standard. The breed is larger than the Belgian Malinois. Also, the Russian Shepherd is very similar to the GSD but more GSD's are bred with a sloping back. The sloping back has been a very controversial breeding point as it has been related to some GSD health problems...at least according to some. Has anyone here been to the German Sieger Show in Germany? I love GSDs (Alsatians).
On another note, I treat dogs like my own children. I don't think I'd want my dog to jump out and attack an armed man. I would rather confront the intruder myself. Would you want your 5 year old son or daughter to go head to head with an armed man? I wouldn't. And if I really did have a Panthera Leo in my home, I wouldn't want her to either. I would put myself between the burglar and her to protect her.
Littlelebowski
02-23-13, 07:23
A dog is a dog. I believe we come for very different backgrounds, Fchen.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h115/FChen17213/AfricanBeauty.jpg
A dog looks at you and says "Hi Boss! Feed me!"
A house cat looks at you and says, "If I were bigger and had opposable thumbs, I'd eat you!"
THAT cat looks at you and says, "Who needs opposable thumbs? I'm hungry!"
Mine are well taken care of also, very spoiled. That doesn't detract from their training and ability to alert or protect.
FChen17213
02-23-13, 07:54
There are a few other good solid breeds that we haven't talked about much. The Rottweiler and Doberman Pinscher are also good guard dog breeds. Rottweilers generally don't require quite as much exercise and aren't as hyper. Interestingly enough, the vast majority of these dog breeds are from Germany. Boxers are also from Germany. I had a friend with a beautiful Brendle tiger stripe boxer who was a great guard dog.
As a side note, humans are not natural prey for the African Lion. Real attacks are few and far between. I would love to go to places like Londolozi, the Kruger National Park, etc. There are plenty of animal handlers and vets in South Africa who deal with large predators on a regular basis relatively safely. Last trip to the zoo I took, I realized that most of the unruly patrons were by far more wild and barbaric than the tigers, lions, and bears.
Littlelebowski
02-23-13, 08:36
On another note, I treat dogs like my own children. I don't think I'd want my dog to jump out and attack an armed man. I would rather confront the intruder myself. Would you want your 5 year old son or daughter to go head to head with an armed man? I wouldn't. And if I really did have a Panthera Leo in my home, I wouldn't want her to either. I would put myself between the burglar and her to protect her.
I'm guessing that you're not from agricultural nor rural background. I'm quite fine with my dog taking on an armed man until I can step in or until my family is safe.
I don't get treating goddamned animals like humans.
On another note, I treat dogs like my own children. I don't think I'd want my dog to jump out and attack an armed man. I would rather confront the intruder myself. Would you want your 5 year old son or daughter to go head to head with an armed man? I wouldn't. And if I really did have a Panthera Leo in my home, I wouldn't want her to either. I would put myself between the burglar and her to protect her.
So you'd rather save your dog('child') and have the rest of your children grow up without a father? And a dog with teeth, jaw pressure, and ball drive is a little different than a 5 year old child.
Dogs are amazing animals and members of our family in a lot of ways. I'm with Littlelebowski though, at the end of the day they're animals.
I'm guessing that you're not from agricultural nor rural background.
That makes a difference. Some buddies of mine (city dudes) shudder at some of the normal stuff around our farm. I brought one of them out once to watch horse breeding...he said it was one of the most violent things he's ever seen :laugh: his face was classic.
I absolutely love my dog (Rhodesian Ridgeback)... Simply wonderful and amazing MEMBER of our family. But like all members of our family she serves a role... And that role includes protecting our family at all costs, even if it meant her having to lay down her life for us.
It would be heart breaking, but I would sleep well knowing she carried out her purpose at all costs.
In the end, no matter how much I love her, she is not on the same level as my kids or wife or self. She is.... A dog.
To compare a dog to children or spouses is ridiculous. Plain and simple.
Taken 1 minute ago: On watch :)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8532/8499744545_3a8bd352b4_b.jpg
This is Hoyt, my little Mountain Cur. He is only 3 months old and a fireball. This picture is after his first fight with a squirrel on his first hunt. He won the tree rat didn't stand a chance, but the squirrel was a fighter putting up a good fight and gave him a good scar on his nose. Had to put the bandanna on him to be able to see his camo butt in the woods.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af211/ryan4570/7DF64FD3-2D56-4871-B6AC-30A8D04BBC0C-179-000000D2E16105E9_zpsc38b8462.jpg
Its too early to tell how good a "guard" dog he is going to make, but his prey drive, alertness and willingness to bite is up there, way up there. Extreme energy, he already rules my 2 other dogs.
His parents are BA hog dogs, tough and fearless as they come.
FChen17213
02-23-13, 14:13
I don't have kids nor want any at the moment, but yeah, I'd risk myself for a dog or other pet. No I didnt grow up on a farm either, but it disturbs me much more personally to see a dog or many other animals get killed or injured than most people. Dogs have the mental makeup of around a 3-6 year old child. I find that much sadder when a dog gets his or her feelings hurt than a grown adult human.
I must say that I have been much more upset about losing pets than human friends and acquaintances. I guess I just believe that adult humans understand life and death and should know better. He or she can "deal with it" better than the poor dog whose owner doesn't want him anymore. It's sort of like comparing a parent who abandons a child to an owner abandoning his dog. I find the later much more sad and heartbreaking, not that the first one isn't horrible too. However, let's look at it sensibly. Human children have our society and safety nets. The kid will most likely wind up growing up in foster homes or an orphanage and still have a chance at life....albeit a crappy one. The dog? The pet will either starve to death on the street or get picked up by animal control and eventually euthanized. Yes, and this is a life with the mental capacity of a 4-year old child. This is much more heartbreaking to me.
I guess it comes down to religion, and I don't consider myself religious or someone who puts people above animals just because we are somehow God's chosen species or something like that. Thus, I have to respectfully disagree.
I don't have kids nor want any at the moment, but yeah, I'd risk myself for a dog or other pet. No I didnt grow up on a farm either, but it disturbs me much more personally to see a dog or many other animals get killed or injured than most people. Dogs have the mental makeup of around a 3-6 year old child. I find that much sadder when a dog gets his or her feelings hurt than a grown adult human.
I must say that I have been much more upset about losing pets than human friends and acquaintances. I guess I just believe that adult humans understand life and death and should know better. He or she can "deal with it" better than the poor dog whose owner doesn't want him anymore. It's sort of like comparing a parent who abandons a child to an owner abandoning his dog. I find the later much more sad and heartbreaking, not that the first one isn't horrible too. However, let's look at it sensibly. Human children have our society and safety nets. The kid will most likely wind up growing up in foster homes or an orphanage and still have a chance at life....albeit a crappy one. The dog? The pet will either starve to death on the street or get picked up by animal control and eventually euthanized. Yes, and this is a life with the mental capacity of a 4-year old child. This is much more heartbreaking to me.
I guess it comes down to religion, and I don't consider myself religious or someone who puts people above animals just because we are somehow God's chosen species or something like that. Thus, I have to respectfully disagree.
That truly boggles my mind. Do you feel the same way about fish?
FChen17213
02-23-13, 14:43
Less so for a fish, but I see where you are coming from. I mean you could take my point to an extreme and say we should feel guilty about killing bacteria, blue green algae, etc. That really isn't where I draw the line. Maybe there isn't a line. Maybe it's a grey sliding scale. However, I based how I feel to the extent the other organism can feel or not feel etc. Nothing particularly rational or logical. Just my own intuitive feelings. Not saying mine is more right or better than anyone else's respectfully.
Littlelebowski
02-23-13, 14:51
.
I guess it comes down to religion, and I don't consider myself religious or someone who puts people above animals just because we are somehow God's chosen species or something like that. Thus, I have to respectfully disagree.
No, I'm an atheist. I really think it's a rural thing.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
Beautiful animal!
Thanks munch!
She is crazy smart too! Always stays between the kids and strangers no matter if we are walking the neighborhood, at the part, etc. really cool to watch.
DocCasualty
02-25-13, 21:02
No, I'm an atheist. I really think it's a rural thing.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
:hmm: I think something else is operating there, which may be more likely to be found in a rural setting, IDK. I grew up in the city, raised by parents who grew up in the city too. Though I've spent the last half of my life in a rural setting, the role of animals in my life was cemented in my youth. I respect animals, never have abused them but still, there role is not equal to humans. My dogs and cats are all members of our pack, though I can't imagine sacrificing myself or other humans for the animal in the dire circumstances we speak of here. That makes no sense to me. The dogs would likely sacrifice themselves for the pack because that is what they do. Maybe I'm the one with some distorted sense, though perceive that is the way of nature.
ScottieG59
02-25-13, 23:03
Just look at what the military uses. Generally, the dogs are not very large and there is a large investment in training. Dogs do not just do the right thing; they need training.
I think it pays to have more than one dog. We teamed small extremely alert Shih Tzus with a large powerful very territorial English Mastiff. The large guy slept heavier and the little one are unbelievably alert. The little ones alone are just coyote bate. English Mastiffs are extremely powerful and they know it. Most are gentle giants but they are also very protective.
For me, a dog must be obedient, loyal and very alert.
As to feeding them, our English Mastiff could easily eat 5 quarts of premium dog food a day. He is not what you will want if you are living a subsistence existence.
I Love the German shepherds and worked with them for 10 years, but my last 5 I worked with a Dutch shepherd before I retired. He retired with me and as a part of the family. Both breed are great to have and loyal and easily trainable. My German shepherd was probably the best and a little easier to train. But my Dutch was more intimidating. I would trust them both with my life and I guess I did. I now only have my Dutch and my family and I Love him and know he would protect me as well as my family. Here is a couple of my boy, hope they show.
I'm a little late to the party. Some...interesting...discussion in this thread.
It's pretty hard to go wrong with a GSD.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/1bdaba9e.jpg
I'm a little late to the party. Some...interesting...discussion in this thread.
It's pretty hard to go wrong with a GSD.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/1bdaba9e.jpg
D'AWWWWWW
a GSD or Mal is certainly on my list.
Another late entry... I have worked with most large breeds and for utility/guard work, I am most happy with Dutch shepherd/Malinois. They are high drive, and could be too much for some. Plus is they are medium size dogs that are hardy and roll much bigger than their size.
underwoodbitsandspurs
03-10-13, 14:20
Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog(Cur), great all around dogs. Great with kids too. They will take advantage of you if you let them. My dog Blue would never obey my ex, and he would steal her food LOL. They use them for pig hunting in the south a lot. They are really good guard dogs, but they also can hunt really well. Mine catches rabbits, squirrels, rock chucks, etc.
This is what they usually have for breed info, and I agree 100%.
"The Catahoula is not recommended for an owner who does not take the pack leader issue seriously. For the right owner who understands the importance of structure, leadership, and exercise the Catahoula can make a wonderful pet."
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc124/underwoodbitsandspurs/20120524_154205.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc124/underwoodbitsandspurs/20120803_155626.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc124/underwoodbitsandspurs/20120803_155708.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc124/underwoodbitsandspurs/20120803_155650.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc124/underwoodbitsandspurs/20120803_155740.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc124/underwoodbitsandspurs/20120803_155740.jpg
That ""stick" seems a little too big to play fetch with. :D
underwoodbitsandspurs
03-10-13, 14:33
The bigger the stick, the more he sleeps. And that's a good thing. :D
And if you give him a smaller stick it will only last a few minutes, he chews wood better then a beaver.
That ""stick" seems a little too big to play fetch with. :D
Littlelebowski
03-10-13, 18:59
I Love the German shepherds and worked with them for 10 years, but my last 5 I worked with a Dutch shepherd before I retired. He retired with me and as a part of the family. Both breed are great to have and loyal and easily trainable. My German shepherd was probably the best and a little easier to train. But my Dutch was more intimidating. I would trust them both with my life and I guess I did. I now only have my Dutch and my family and I Love him and know he would protect me as well as my family. Here is a couple of my boy, hope they show.
Nice Dutchie! Comparable personality to a Mal?
Pinmonkey05
03-12-13, 09:43
Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog(Cur), great all around dogs. Great with kids too. They will take advantage of you if you let them. My dog Blue would never obey my ex, and he would steal her food LOL. They use them for pig hunting in the south a lot. They are really good guard dogs, but they also can hunt really well. Mine catches rabbits, squirrels, rock chucks, etc.
This is what they usually have for breed info, and I agree 100%.
"The Catahoula is not recommended for an owner who does not take the pack leader issue seriously. For the right owner who understands the importance of structure, leadership, and exercise the Catahoula can make a wonderful pet."
Sweet dog man
p22shooter30
03-12-13, 13:19
15841 watchout for this monster
p22shooter30
03-12-13, 13:21
15842
And her evil sister
p22shooter30
03-12-13, 13:24
both those dogs are cockapoos and they are great guard dogs and hunters. they get rabbits and mice. im sure the brown one would take on a raccoon if given a chance. they might be lapdogs that wont hurt an attacker. but they are always on guard and can take care of themselves. they are very smart as well.
Littlelebowski
03-12-13, 13:27
Everyone knows dogs are among the best criminal deterrents one can get. In hard/bad times, I'm curious what breed you guys believe would serve a guard dog role best?
We already have a pets picture thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28537), folks. Reread the OP, helpfully quoted above.
ramairthree
03-22-13, 22:21
OP-
Is your goal a well trained animal that can attack to protect your family,
a large, formidable appearing deterrent,
or simply a reliable, noticeable "alarm"?
mvasilakis
03-22-13, 23:28
I have a cane corso & 2 young boys. They tug on her ears, put their hands in her mouth and play with her food while she eats. She is very well tempered. She has a bark that will scare the ever loving crap out of anyone wo doesn't know her. She responds to my commands & rarely defys me. (she is very dominant so getting her to do the same for the other members of family takes work.)
she also has a very solid grasp on what belongs to her and what belongs to everyone else. The only shoe she ever put in her mou was my flip flops outside. And even though the chews through anything she's given she didn't leave a mark on my flip flops. ( the ony way I knew she messed with them were because felt that warm slobber on my toes when I put them on. Yes I got that same expression.)
If I had the time to really work with her she would respond like a well trained K9.
She has not been bite trained. With small kids & the advice of the trainer we opted to hold off. The dog is an animal and once they know how to bite they don't unknow it. (it can be an issue with some dominant breeds and small children. )
As for training, she was the easiest dog I've ever even heard of to train. Most commands she picked up in minutes with such little work it was almost wrong. I had to convince myself to get her professionally trained because she really didn't need it. I just didn't have the time to consistently work with her. She is my first corso so I don't know if this is typical for the breed. I think the hardest concept for her was to learn to fetch. I'd throw her toys ad shed give me a dirty look.
This dog needs allot of love and attention. (especially when young) Corsos also need to be socialized with kids & other animals unless you intend the dog to be hostile. They also grow FAST! If you don't want a 90 lb dog in you bed or on your couch in 8-9 months don't let it in/up there @ 2 months! When the dog comes home you need to treat it like a 120lb dog. No jumping, no rough housing, no nipping or biting, and no touching ANYTHING that doesnt belong to it.
She slobbers, but not as bad as other mastif breeds I've seen. (heck I've seen boxers that slobber 10x worse than she does.) I'd say I expected worse on the slobber end but her temperament and obedience make up for the occasional slobber she graces us with.
Hope this helped for the corso and personal experience. Beyond that I've had labs & my dad bred and trained beagles when I was very young. I am by no means an expert but I get the basics of having dogs.
Oh yea, and if you are making your morning coffee and you see your dog running back & forth in the back yard with your 5 foot banana tree in it's mouth like giant bone... You might have a mastiff. Shrug it off, lol.
I would take a german shepard over anything. My next dog will be a GS. Right now I have a black lab mix. He is mostly lab though. He is a harmless wussy though. He will play rough and loves to wrestle but he is a wussy. He was extremely easy to train. He's house trained, knows how to fetch, sit, lay, stay and what no is. He is still young, going on 2 so he gets hyper around new people and sometimes forgets his training. As for being a guard dog he has yet to be tested.
DocCasualty
04-08-13, 00:10
Thought of this thread when I saw this:
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/v/909352_10200867519320247_1130421711_n.jpg?oh=9e78f8d813d2863999af8d7f16cf4a45&oe=5164526E&__gda__=1365541704_f4f8541ea1987b253512f6608265724b
I have a lab that is my BFF, and a lil rat terrier/poodle mix that annoys the hell out of me and everyone else in my neighborhood. In a SHTF scenario, I'd take my lil rat dog. Her jumpiness would alert me to all guests welcome and unwelcomed. She routinely catches birds , squirrels, and even a duck that I could use for food if needed. My lab is lots of fun but wouldn't trust him for HD.
Not for everyone, but my choice for guard, utility...my Dutch Shepherd- Brick.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4303.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4270.jpg
Littlelebowski
05-08-13, 20:15
Man, I'd hate to have a Dutchie coming at me. Nice choice!
I love my Mal but I'm going back to a German Shepherd after this pup. I miss the Nazi approach to security.
Thanks, I was looking at some great EG lines, but my relationship with the Dutchie breeder{disabled vet} won out in the end. I love this dog, but he is "always on," and sometimes it just flat wears me out. One speed-fast, one direction,-forward.:D
BTW, I'm a huge Mally fan!
After these sheps pass I am going to dutchies.
Something about this thread reminds me of a glock vs M&P vs 1911 thread. Nobody seems to agree.
I say look at what the mil and police use, we use them for a reason.
Littlelebowski
05-09-13, 06:52
After these sheps pass I am going to dutchies.
Something about this thread reminds me of a glock vs M&P vs 1911 thread. Nobody seems to agree.
I say look at what the mil and police use, we use them for a reason.
We are in violent agreement on Dutchies/Mals/GSDs but many just don't get it on what the mil and police use and why they do.
I'd consider a Dutchie but I miss the calm, mature, Nazi-about-home-security temperament of my old GSD.
Littlelebowski
05-09-13, 06:58
BTW, I'm a huge Mally fan!
I think you might enjoy this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=116416) then :D
We are in violent agreement on Dutchies/Mals/GSDs but many just don't get it on what the mil and police use and why they do.
I'd consider a Dutchie but I miss the calm, mature, Nazi-about-home-security temperament of my old GSD.
I'm new to the K9 breeds but this thread and "Athena's thread" convinced me to try a GSD when we finally got into our first home last fall. I grew up with Labs and Golden Retrievers. I've already told him directly, but Littelebowski unknowingly convinced me to adopt an adult dog off an online classified.
Although he's not schutzhund trained, his entire pedigree are insanely well titled in the sport and the genetics are certainly there.
The above quote that I highlighted in red are very descriptive of my "Shark", I don't know if he'd actually engage a real human threat but I have seen him engage another canine (pitbulls) threat to my kids. He has been a real joy to have around and everyday as I work with him on tuning up his basic obedience skills (he learned to walk on a loose leash in 2-3 sessions) he becomes more fun to have around.
I took this pic through my bedroom window--His self-appointed post, watching the perimeter and all avenues of approach when he's outside; this really is what he does:
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a541/patrickliebel/2013-02-24124630_zps8e491536.jpg (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/patrickliebel/media/2013-02-24124630_zps8e491536.jpg.html)
This is his master-appointed indoor post:
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a541/patrickliebel/2013-02-10150431_zps64a19915.jpg (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/patrickliebel/media/2013-02-10150431_zps64a19915.jpg.html)
He has what I would call mid-drive overall. He is always paying attention, focuses very intently on what he is doing (loves to retrieve), and is never off the job on watching the perimeter but has an "off-switch" so to speak. He obeys the command to be in his bed or lay down beside us on the floor while we watch a movie. He's been a perfect fit for our family. Yesterday we had the grass sprayed for weeds and so my wife brought him in for a couple of hours. She texted me to tell me that Shark was not ok with a stranger walking all around our house in his backyard, she said he just couldn't relax...I told her to praise him as much as she had the energy to do so. I don't have the intention of getting him truly protection trained because of my time constraints in this stage of my life but I got him with the hope that he would a) be an alert system for me to handle real security if I need to, and b) be a hell of a visual deterrent for any would be BG. I've gotten all of what I wanted. Someday we'll get and keep a son from him in place of a stud fee and that boy will get Schutzhund trained, maybe my kids (at an appropriate age/maturity) will even be the handlers, I think that would be a fun and unique sport for kids to grow up doing. Plus my daughter is just flat stunning and I'd love for her to have a bodyguard.:nono:
He even has the patience to fetch a ball as far as a 14 month old can throw it and drop it back for him...really the ball only goes a couple of feet at most but he will still do it for the little guy--thrills my son to no end:
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a541/patrickliebel/2013-03-31153031_zps9422221b.jpg (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/patrickliebel/media/2013-03-31153031_zps9422221b.jpg.html)
I doubt I'll ever go back to a retriever breed again. Shark has us hooked.
Here's "Bear" in all his "glory". English Mastiff. 18 months old and 175 pounds. Biggest couch potato out there. Sits like a dude on the couch where he can look out all the windows. VERY protective over mama and the kids. VERY good disposition towards children. I trust him more with infants than I do adults. He is a real character.
BUT....NO ONE repeat..NO ONE is coming in that house unless he wants you in. Today we have packers at the house (we're PCS'ing) and he is NOT happy. he's standing right next to momma and the packers are on their best behavior.
His temperament is very gentle and he is a joy to be around. He's just a big, loveable lug.
That is an animal! I have contemplated a mastiff before, they look like they have neat personalities and what man doesn't love the sheer size they carry? How's the slobber volume? I have heard they are pretty wet, true? How much bigger do you expect him to fill out to? I met a male once that was 240 lbs!
But in the end I don't know if I'll ever get one cause my GSD has us sold for the foreseeable future, and since he is at stud I should be able to keep one of his descendants going forward.
We are in violent agreement on Dutchies/Mals/GSDs but many just don't get it on what the mil and police use and why they do.
I'd consider a Dutchie but I miss the calm, mature, Nazi-about-home-security temperament of my old GSD.
Every time I think about getting a mallinois or dutchie I just cant imagine having the time they really need. My GSD is calm, but she has proven herself incredibly in both deterrence and apprehension. This dog can seriously bite, while remaining the friendliest GSD I've encountered.
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz342/jmoney05txst/photo-4.jpg (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/jmoney05txst/media/photo-4.jpg.html)
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz342/jmoney05txst/photo-8.jpg (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/jmoney05txst/media/photo-8.jpg.html)
I'm new to the K9 breeds but this thread and "Athena's thread" convinced me to try a GSD when we finally got into our first home last fall. I grew up with Labs and Golden Retrievers. I've already told him directly, but Littelebowski unknowingly convinced me to adopt an adult dog off an online classified.
Although he's not schutzhund trained, his entire pedigree are insanely well titled in the sport and the genetics are certainly there.
The above quote that I highlighted in red are very descriptive of my "Shark", I don't know if he'd actually engage a real human threat but I have seen him engage another canine (pitbulls) threat to my kids. He has been a real joy to have around and everyday as I work with him on tuning up his basic obedience skills (he learned to walk on a loose leash in 2-3 sessions) he becomes more fun to have around.
I doubt I'll ever go back to a retriever breed again. Shark has us hooked.
mine will not tolerate strange dogs that come charging up to me or my fiancé. She has been attacked by off lead dogs several times now and demands absolute respect from other dogs. The other GSDs at her training school all approach each other very slow and cautiously before they start running around and playing with each other. Be sure you do watch for any "on-sight" agitation towards other dogs with yours, it can become an issue.
For me Dutch shepherd or GSD
Bear will get to about 200+. His dad was 212. We want to keep him a bit on the lean side for joint/health issues. GREAT personality. He does slobber though - although not as bad as we heard. It is more of an endearing trait for him. Give him an apple or a carrot and he'll foam up like a horse. He is very laid back, a bit stubborn to train (not as easy as a Lab), but VERY loveable and family oriented. We have two small children and when they go up to bed at night he goes up with them and sleeps in the bathroom outside their door until we go to bed. He isn't happy unless we're all in the same area together and he can watch us all. His personality just cracks me up. Very protective and doesn't bark a lot. Will cry if I'm alone with him in the house and Momma isn't around- big baby.
Bear will get to about 200+. His dad was 212. We want to keep him a bit on the lean side for joint/health issues. GREAT personality. He does slobber though - although not as bad as we heard. It is more of an endearing trait for him. Give him an apple or a carrot and he'll foam up like a horse. He is very laid back, a bit stubborn to train (not as easy as a Lab), but VERY loveable and family oriented. We have two small children and when they go up to bed at night he goes up with them and sleeps in the bathroom outside their door until we go to bed. He isn't happy unless we're all in the same area together and he can watch us all. His personality just cracks me up. Very protective and doesn't bark a lot. Will cry if I'm alone with him in the house and Momma isn't around- big baby.
these things do wonders for large dog joint
http://www.vetrxdirect.com/product/view/synovial-flex?gclid=CLmyrbr_i7cCFYef4AodZRIAiA
Another one to try is dasuquin chewables. They taste like a treat and you can just throw it in the food bowl when they eat. Only problem is you might need to purchase through a vet, don't quote me on that though.
kornbread402
05-10-13, 18:39
I am with JimP. I have a 8 month old english mastiff "Frank The Tank". He's 110 pounds now and reading your post is like a mirror of my mastiff, sleeping in the bathroom outside my sons room and all. I could not think of a better family guarddog. Our home is his and he sees himself as one of the family and anyone who is not he lets them know. My wife has an in home daycare and he is protective of the children there as well and very gentle with them. The cons are slobber and food bill. He plays fetch better than a golden I had years ago and with a full size football at that. And in a SHTF situation outfit him with saddlebags. :D
Littlelebowski
05-10-13, 18:55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi5FVs63Jo
Every time I think about getting a mallinois or dutchie I just cant imagine having the time they really need. My GSD is calm, but she has proven herself incredibly in both deterrence and apprehension. This dog can seriously bite, while remaining the friendliest GSD I've encountered.
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz342/jmoney05txst/photo-4.jpg (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/jmoney05txst/media/photo-4.jpg.html)
Good looking pup. Apparently I've got her 'twin', because my GSD, Beau, looks just like her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi5FVs63Jo
That handler got handled in the middle
I've watched that video a dozen times at least..."handler aggressive" just goes with the territory. Europe uses some seriously hard police k-9.
Re the youtube posted: The explosive athletic prowess of those K9's is so impressive. And the fearlessness to engage the driver of a moving vehicle, so cool! They definitely have no concern for their own physical safety, very neat training and conditioning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi5FVs63Jo
that second to last clip with those two k-9s http://www.fansoflive.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/omg.gif
Littlelebowski
05-12-13, 08:25
I've watched that video a dozen times at least..."handler aggressive" just goes with the territory. Europe uses some seriously hard police k-9.
I wouldn't even call that "handler aggressive," just wound the hell up. The dog is prolly fine with his handler.
I wouldn't even call that "handler aggressive," just wound the hell up. The dog is prolly fine with his handler.
i'll agree. looks like the handler tried moving the dog to the side too soon while the mal was still in bite mode and got in it's way. it can be hard to turn those dogs off some times, mals love to bite.
Yeah, if the dog was handler aggressive he wouldn't be in field use. What it looked like to me was it just happened to be a situation where the handler pulled the dog off and the dog was still switched on, instead of letting the dog respond to a command and then moving the dog.
Yeah, if the dog was handler aggressive he wouldn't be in field use. What it looked like to me was it just happened to be a situation where the handler pulled the dog off and the dog was still switched on, instead of letting the dog respond to a command and then moving the dog.
thats exactly what I thought. I can't figure out why they are yanking that dog off. I've never had a military dog, but mine will NOT let go unless it is told to. Someone could literally yank all day but she might think that person was "unfriendly" if she didn't recognize them.
billybronco
05-15-13, 10:11
Anybody have a Karelian Bear Dog?
I'm experienced handler/trainer so I'm not concerned so much with the idea that they're an independent/primitive/stubborn breed.
I just put a deposit on one. Go pick her up on 6/8.
I'm stoked.
She's the one in left on first page lying down.
http://karelianbeardogsnj.com/puppies
Those are pretty neat dogs, as you said they can be a little stubborn. I haven't had one personally, but I have met a few people that have them up north in Wyoming. Both of them are excellent dogs. They had very strong drives which supposedly made them fun to train. I can ask them in a few weeks when I'm back up there if they have any advice for you. If I remember correctly both owners finished out their training on E-collars. Which makes sense if they are a stubborn breed, I know thats the only time I get 100% lightening fast OB from my shepherd.
Supposedly the recall/come command will be the most difficult one to master as they are a very independent hunting breed. I would be wary about letting one of lead until you really have a strong foundation for that command, I'm assuming their prey drive is through the roof.
billybronco
05-15-13, 10:40
yeah, roger that......will move to electronic after she's developed a strong foundation of verbal commands and hand signals.
copy on the recall/come commands, as well.
I don't know how familiar you are with e-collars but make absolutely sure you know what your doing with them before adding one in, I usually start my shepherds on them at 5 months of age, but they have mastered nearly all of their basic OB work by then.
Once again, I'm not very familiar with that breed, but since it is a hunting breed that likes to get out and about and doesn't like to be near the handler at all times like a shepherd, its reasonable to infer that its very easy to break the bond with one of those dogs. Low Low Low levels on the e-collar, and get a tritronics, don't even mess around with the other brands, you are going to want something with rock solid consistency.
I don't know that much about the new alphas that have gps tracking built in, but if you plan on letting your dog roam free and off lead out in the woods alot, its probably a good investment. I know I'm ordering one at the end of july. You can even set up a gps based perimiter to keep your pup from straying outside of the boundaries, its pretty neat. Plus, its combined with the basic tritronic receiver and works the same way with stim levels.
billybronco
05-15-13, 13:08
yep.......already considered all points.
extremely valid. especially the point about breaking bond and such. probably won't put collar on dog until 9-12 months. will put it on her for several days before even beeping her or putting charge to her.
obviously start out with low levels.
tri-tronics is all we use.
thinking about getting the Garmin GPS collar.
good stuff, seems like you already got your head in the right place
I wish I knew more about the new garmin/tritronics combo, I've been wanting to try it out since I've heard about it. As long as the stims stay consistent and the handunit is reliable, even with all that GPS stuff I'm sure i'll be happy
glad you are on board with tritronics, i've run through a whole bunch of dogtras, all of them have been sent back, eventually they stopped repairing/replacing them. Most were inconsistent after a few weeks of use. Went back to tritronics, wont be changing again any time soon.
A most interesting thread. In the training videos, I saw super aggressive dogs doing "salt water crocodile" attacks on the human training dummies. Wow. My question: Are the dogs playing a game and having fun, or are they mad as hell and out to kill.
I only know about country hounds.
Yea the Mal is still switched on....no doubt. Even a quick bite is considered "handler aggressive" with a lot of trainers....it doesn't have to be a stay in ICU {which I've seen} to merit the term. It really depends on the individual dog whether this is a issue. In my experience it usually isn't with Mals/Dutchies, its more of an AD.;)
We had the best of both worlds, GSD/Akita mix - both parents were pedigreed. Got him from a co-worker for free.
While not a huge dog, ~70lbs., he was very strong for his size. GSD smarts/Akita strength. He hated to be confined - most of the local kennels knew him as Houdini. But he loved to ride in the car or truck (and frequently liked to sleep inside the truck).
Oso was not very vocal, if he was barking, he meant business. Very protective of my wife & young daughter, would not allow strangers to approach either of them & would position himself between them and the "unknown" person. Yet, I was the "alpha", I could walk up behind him and grab him and all he would do was roll over and want a belly rub (submissive response).
He would also give a vocal warning and nuzzle if he thought things were getting out of hand.
He grew up with cats, so he left them alone, but no other critters were allowed in "his" turf. I witnessed him chase down & kill a large boar coon one night - in Akita fashion, he would clamp down on the throat and use his powerful neck to snap the spine with a quick shake. No muss, no fuss.
Sadly, he was hit by a car at the age of 12.
Our next (and current) dog is a GSD/Husky mix (both parents pedigreed). While quite beautiful, I would not recommend this mix for SHTF/Guard purposes. She is a runner and has the Husky stubbornness. She also never met a stranger and will roll over on her back for anyone she meets. Our neighbor has a GSD K-9 unit and when his dog got into our yard one day, our dog thought it was time to party - fortunately, the K-9 unit is socialized with other dogs.
CatahoulaM4
06-04-13, 23:01
I have a Blue Heeler and a Catahoula Leopard and they are both extremely intelligent, have great work ethic, and are very loyal. The Heeler is about 45 pounds and the Catahoula is just shy of 70. They can both work cattle all day then curl up on the front porch at night and keep watch. I can go in town and sit down for lunch and leave tools, guns, bows, etc. in the bed of my truck and my dogs wont let anyone come near that truck.
Way too much to tell about these great dogs. I encourage you to research each breed. I'll try to get a picture or two uploaded of them.
CatahoulaM4
06-04-13, 23:49
My pups
16922
My Catahoula as a pup
16924
Litter
16923
Mama Roxy
16925
I believe that one should not trust a dog for intruder situations in the home. My dog is a love dubby girly and i love her but she would lick the end of a gun if someone walked in. Now what she would do is FREAK OUT and wake me up so then i could protect property and self. Good dog Good dog. My dog is a half lab and pit, weighs about 80 lbs by the way.
In a wilderness survival situation i can see a trained hunting dog coming in need.
The dog as an alarm for me is the essential part.
Littlelebowski
06-06-13, 05:04
I believe that one should not trust a dog for intruder situations in the home.
There's thousands of people that do just that, everyday. It takes a certain kind of dog.
I have a love of working breeds like Mals, GSD's and Dutch Shepherds. Hopefully friday we will be able to rescue a 2 year old GSD.
One note of visual deterence, a friend of mine is a baliff for the Judge here. One day he heard the case against a man that broke into a house on his street. He told the man that he lived on that street which led the defendant to ask where. Once he had a general idea of the location he described my friends house to him in detail, and then told him that he left it alone because of the GSD that lives there. Funy thing is that the GSD is about the most friendly dog I have even been around. Who knows how that would be different in a break in situation?
I believe that one should not trust a dog for intruder situations in the home.
I think depends on the dog. though they definitely shouldn't be the only line of defense. unless they are trained otherwise, they are more of a deterrent and an alarm system than anything else.
shootist1970
06-06-13, 18:22
All right here's the deal and things to think about..............
1. 90% of dogs are territorial and will make a racket to let you know of an intruder even the little "yappie dogs".
2. If looking for a larger breed you can sick on somebody intruding ask yourself this............."What do i know about Canine vetrinary medicine?" "How much money do i have to stockpile large amounts of dog food,flea medicine for a large breed dog?"
Seriously the larger the dog the more they quit eating ounces of food and start eating POUNDS of food per day.
Go ahead and laugh but i have a Shih Tzu that raises holy hell if somebody is intruding and you can tell the difference in her voice b etween somebody is at the door and somebody is coming in the door.
Littlelebowski
06-06-13, 18:25
My Malinois eats 2 cups of dog food a day but thanks for the illuminating thoughts.
If your dog is eating pounds of food per day, you're seriously over feeding it.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
Yeah my great dane/american bulldog mix only needs 2 1/2 cups of food a day.
My 100 pound GSD (see avatar) eats 2 cups of dry dog food per day.
But so does my 60 pound GSD. She just runs around a hell of a lot more and is built much lighter/still carries basically zero fat. Extraordinarily agile and quick/fast though.
I got 6. Five of which eat 3ish cups a day over two meals. Not quite pounds (plural) per dog.
"The other thing to think about is" my 'yappy' dog ain't going to back a full grown man up. However, my 90-100lb dogs, (2 in particular) will make any grown man with some common sense question if he really needs to be at my house or not. And I've personally witnessed one make a grown ass, 6'4 - 250lb, man cry without even putting a bite on him. Yes. That happened. And yes, I was quite proud. :D
70lbs/very active/2 cups of good food. Thinking about cutting fatty back to 1.75!:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/Brick/DSCN4279.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/Brick/DSCN4270.jpg
What foods are you guys using?
I have a 85ish lb GSD that I'm feeding 5.5-6 cups a day split over two feedings. We have Blue Buffalo (lamb/rice), not cheap stuff.
I started out feeding per bag recommendation at 1.75 cups twice a day but he just got too lean, the hip bones were too prominent. I've steadily increased it and just recently am getting him where I want him to be: lean but not boney. He is very active, we run 4 miles 3x a week together and he is a retrieving fool every day. He is also still a stud which theoretically raises his basal metabolic rate but I wouldn't think nearly twice what ya'lls are. Are you guys using a super food or is my dog a freak?
What foods are you guys using?
I have a 85ish lb GSD that I'm feeding 5.5-6 cups a day split over two feedings. We have Blue Buffalo (lamb/rice), not cheap stuff.
I started out feeding per bag recommendation at 1.75 cups twice a day but he just got too lean, the hip bones were too prominent. I've steadily increased it and just recently am getting him where I want him to be: lean but not boney. He is very active, we run 4 miles 3x a week together and he is a retrieving fool every day. He is also still a stud which theoretically raises his basal metabolic rate but I wouldn't think nearly twice what ya'lls are. Are you guys using a super food or is my dog a freak?
I said 2 cups earlier. It's more like 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 (per day) if I really pile it up. I use a 1 cup measuring cup, but I fill it all the way to the brim, which is a little bit above the 1 cup mark.
Innova large breed normally, but just transitioned to Innova Prime grain free.
I don't get mine as much activity as you are. He loves to retrieve stuff but it's so hot down here so much of the time he only does that for so long before plopping down in the shade.
Activity level is a huge difference maker. That's why we have a 100 pound guy and a 60 pound female on the same feeding schedule, and I'm thinking of starting to give the female more. She just has a non stop motor.
70lbs/very active/2 cups of good food. Thinking about cutting fatty back to 1.75!:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/Brick/DSCN4279.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/Brick/DSCN4270.jpg
good lookin' dog there mate
SeriousStudent
06-07-13, 17:25
70lbs/very active/2 cups of good food. Thinking about cutting fatty back to 1.75!:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/Brick/DSCN4279.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/Brick/DSCN4270.jpg
What a good boy! Great looking dog. :)
My 90 pound GSD mix gets right at 2 cups of food a day.
Plus bacon on Saturday morning. Plus a slice of cheese after our walk every night. Plus peanut butter in his Kong ball when we play throw the toy.
Devildawg2531
06-07-13, 18:32
I've owned 2 APBT and 1 Rottweiller now have a blue heeeler. The 2 APBT were game bred and EXTREMELY dog aggressive if the dog was the same sex. The APBT's were not much as guard dogs as they were both very people friendly (strangers and all were welcome). Some of the physical abilities of the APBT's were unbelievable. The Rottweiler was a tremendous guard dog but was a liability around people and was not possible to socialize (he was fiercly protective of family and property). The blue heeler is extremely intelligent (smartest dog I've ever owned) and will bark and alert but doesn't have the physical look of the APBT's and Rott to be a deterrence. Have 3 young kids in the home so have to be careful about breed's and family compatibility. Interested in a good GSD one day.
Have 3 young kids in the home so have to be careful about breed's and family compatibility. Interested in a good GSD one day.
They are good for that.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/20130430_135323_zps468e0e08.jpg
Thanks for the compliments, he is a good boy!
His 2 cups will vary with some meat/veggie supplements...I just try to watch the stool to see what the dog needs. The breeder runs most of his dogs around 24/24 fat/protein. Mine is doing good around the 20/18 mark. There is nothing wrong with seeing a dogs ribs.
Devildawg2531
06-07-13, 20:37
Don't agree size doesn't mean shit. A mean large dog will always tear apart a mean small dog. Haven't head of any wolverine or badger killing grown bear lately.
Size doesn't mean S..T. I saw my 65 lb game bred APBT absolutely DESTROY and would have killed my 135 lb Rottweiller on 3 or 4 occasions. (until my dumbass 25 year old self realized that they could not cohabitate the same back yard). They would go months and everything was fine but something minor would trigger them (they were both male and dog dominant). The Rotty was usually the instigator amd they only fought if I was near - they went hours a day together when I was at work with never a fight. Their fights always went the same way - the Rotty would hold his own for maybe 30 seconds and then end up on his back with the Pit ripping into his neck and me desperately trying to get them apart. There fights looked like a human version of a 170 lb UFC MMA fighter mopping the floor with some 240 lb bar room brawler. Had a fenced in acre and ended up having to keep them booth seperated at all times to avoid them fighting.
eljimbo142
06-07-13, 22:35
best dog is a pitbull, american stafordshire. great with kids. most loyal dog. i know my dogs don't have the best hearing but i have no doubt they would sacrifice their life for the family, giving me enough time to ready shotgun. of all the pitbulls shortcomings, loyalty to the family is not one of them. fight to the death!
there is no doubt that a pitbull would die for it's family... I just don't think that they normally would in a home invasion situation, fighting a bear? yes. pitbulls, while territorial, are generally very loveable with people, even strangers. so unless trained otherwise, I don't think they would naturally try to destroy an intruder.
Devildawg2531
06-08-13, 09:43
there is no doubt that a pitbull would die for it's family... I just don't think that they normally would in a home invasion situation, fighting a bear? yes. pitbulls, while territorial, are generally very loveable with people, even strangers. so unless trained otherwise, I don't think they would naturally try to destroy an intruder.
This has been my experience completely. When turned ON they have extreme drive and ignore pain and are relentless. Stangers could pull up and get out and my APBT's would run over and wag and super friendly. They were very loyal and I always wondered how they would have responded if the stranger took a hostile action to me or family. They are by nature very people freindly - they get a bad rap due to bad owners and the fact if they do go after something it's very hard to get the off switch so you don't have a bite situation but a mauling. They are incredible dogs - I grew tired of ignorant people's reaction to them in public so after owning 2 for close to 1/2 my life wanted a breed that was highly athletic and tough with the public bias. Have neen very happy with my Australian Cattle Dog "blue heeler" - very intelligent, loyal, high drive and TOUGH in a 40 lb package.
silviacrazed
06-08-13, 12:32
70lbs/very active/2 cups of good food. Thinking about cutting fatty back to 1.75!:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/Brick/DSCN4279.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/Brick/DSCN4270.jpg
beautiful! Where did you get him from? I've been considering a Dutch instead of a Mal, but I don't really know who's a reputable breeder of Dutch Shepherds.
This has been my experience completely. When turned ON they have extreme drive and ignore pain and are relentless. Stangers could pull up and get out and my APBT's would run over and wag and super friendly. They were very loyal and I always wondered how they would have responded if the stranger took a hostile action to me or family. They are by nature very people freindly - they get a bad rap due to bad owners and the fact if they do go after something it's very hard to get the off switch so you don't have a bite situation but a mauling. They are incredible dogs - I grew tired of ignorant people's reaction to them in public so after owning 2 for close to 1/2 my life wanted a breed that was highly athletic and tough with the public bias. Have neen very happy with my Australian Cattle Dog "blue heeler" - very intelligent, loyal, high drive and TOUGH in a 40 lb package.
My mom has heelers....brilliant and tenacious. They're definitely a great choice!
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Mine is 100 pounds 2 cups am 2 cups pm. Or 2 lbs raw food per day. Orijen or acana kibble
Here is a breeder of dutch shepherds that will have a litter ready to go in about 8 weeks. The mom should have the pups in the next day or so. His dogs are among the best.
http://www.werkhondenkenneldezonhoek.com/index_bestanden/Page2232.htm
beautiful! Where did you get him from? I've been considering a Dutch instead of a Mal, but I don't really know who's a reputable breeder of Dutch Shepherds.
My mom has heelers....brilliant and tenacious. They're definitely a great choice!
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Littlelebowski
06-08-13, 17:43
best dog is a pitbull, american stafordshire. great with kids. most loyal dog. i know my dogs don't have the best hearing but i have no doubt they would sacrifice their life for the family, giving me enough time to ready shotgun. of all the pitbulls shortcomings, loyalty to the family is not one of them. fight to the death!
But GSDs, Mals, and Dutchies don't have these traits?
I contacted Mike @ Logan Haus Kennels, picking up a puppy from him in July.
I contacted Mike @ Logan Haus Kennels, picking up a puppy from him in July.
They hooked me up with my breeder who happened to be very close to me... Arko, Ruddie Pegge...good as it gets, when it comes to Dutch Shepherds, IMO.
I contacted Mike @ Logan Haus Kennels, picking up a puppy from him in July.
Logan Haus gets pups from Marcel Dobbelaar: http://www.werkhondenkenneldezonhoek.com/index_bestanden/Page2232.htm
Just had a Dutch Shepherd litter yesterday.
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