View Full Version : What Add-On Accessory have you come to hate and why?
Doc Safari
08-19-11, 09:34
In reading all the threads about "what do you recommend" or "what's the best _______________" I noticed the rants against some accessory or another are sort of scattered around.
Since you've had experience with the M4/AR platform, what accessory, brand name, add-on, or concept have you decided is either totally useless, or an answer to a problem that doesn't exist, or you just plain don't like?
My list is real short: the MagPul MOE buttstock isn't different enough from the military style for me to warm up to it. I like the protected lever, but the thing is a bitch to get on and off and it's no more stable in the fully extended position than the original. Maybe the CTR version is better, but I found the MOE stock to be damn wobbly in the open position. I like the rubber butt pad, but I can add that to my military stock (not that it's really needed). All in all I thought the MOE stock was a waste of $60.
(I do like the MOE handguards, though). :D
Reagans Rascals
08-19-11, 09:38
Accuwedge.... its a gimmick
Accuwedge.... its a gimmick
How?
On my 14.5 the upper and lower have noticeable play without it. When its used it locks up tight. Not any more accurate, but it does relieve the rattle and clank my rifle once had. Id buy another one if my recent build wasnt tight.
Reagans Rascals
08-19-11, 10:20
How?
On my 14.5 the upper and lower have noticeable play without it. When its used it locks up tight. Not any more accurate, but it does relieve the rattle and clank my rifle once had. Id buy another one if my recent build wasnt tight.
"Not any more accurate".... key phrase there
from Midway USA
"By simply installing the Accu-Wedge underneath the takedown pin lug on the upper receiver, the "slop" found on many AR-15 rifles can be reduced or eliminated. Removal of the slop can result in increased accuracy and more reliable feeding."
the name itself is misleading
hence... a gimmick
In reading all the threads about "what do you recommend" or "what's the best _______________" I noticed the rants against some accessory or another are sort of scattered around.
Since you've had experience with the M4/AR platform, what accessory, brand name, add-on, or concept have you decided is either totally useless, or an answer to a problem that doesn't exist, or you just plain don't like?
My list is real short: the MagPul MOE buttstock isn't different enough from the military style for me to warm up to it. I like the protected lever, but the thing is a bitch to get on and off and it's no more stable in the fully extended position than the original. Maybe the CTR version is better, but I found the MOE stock to be damn wobbly in the open position. I like the rubber butt pad, but I can add that to my military stock (not that it's really needed). All in all I thought the MOE stock was a waste of $60.
(I do like the MOE handguards, though). :D
The MOE Stock is actually a good choice and the CTR is not. So you have it backwards. ;)
If you put the MOE stock on say a BCM RE, there is no play. Very solid. Paying $40 dollars for a locking lever is just stupid IMHO.
C4
Accuwedge.... its a gimmick
This and the BAD Lever.
C4
crazymoose
08-19-11, 10:27
How?
On my 14.5 the upper and lower have noticeable play without it. When its used it locks up tight. Not any more accurate, but it does relieve the rattle and clank my rifle once had. Id buy another one if my recent build wasnt tight.
Accuwedges have occasionally been known to break and cause malfunctions when the pieces end up in fire control parts.
How?
On my 14.5 the upper and lower have noticeable play without it. When its used it locks up tight. Not any more accurate, but it does relieve the rattle and clank my rifle once had. Id buy another one if my recent build wasnt tight.
Play (rattle) matters not. In fact, an overly tight weapon can be unreliable.
We have also seen the "wedge" come apart and lodge itself in the FCG making the gun worthless for anything other than a paper weight.
So on a FIGHTING GUN, this is a no go.
C4
Doc Safari
08-19-11, 10:28
If you put the MOE stock on say a BCM RE, there is no play. Very solid.
C4
Mine wasn't. Okay, as long as you are sliding the stock back and forth and/or don't pull it all the way out to the last position I suppose it's tight, but on my BCM rear extension it was noticably wobbly in the most open position.
Why do you say the CTR is the worse of the two choices?
Mine wasn't. Okay, as long as you are sliding the stock back and forth and/or don't pull it all the way out to the last position I suppose it's tight, but on my BCM rear extension it was noticably wobbly in the most open position.
Why do you say the CTR is the worse of the two choices?
We put MOE stocks on about 3 BCM lowers a day. They are TIGHT. Yes, they do slide (so you have to have some play there), but nothing like a USGI stock.
First, play in a stock matters not. Having a stock that has ZERO play won't make you shoot faster or more accurate. So why pay the extra coin??
Truth be told, the single most important feature on the MOE stock is the rubber buttpad. This keep the stock from sliding around and gives your more control (especially when shooting one handed).
C4
- KNS Anti-Rotation pins on semiauto lowers;
- bipods on carbines;
- gigantic off-brand scopes in cheap rings on carbines -- double points for mounting the scope far enough back to prevent a decent sight picture;
- magwell grip devices;
- picatinney rails plastered on scopes;
- el-cheapo Ebay Chinese lasers;
Geez, there's just so much to choose from... Can you tell I've been around ARs too long?
Doc Safari
08-19-11, 10:45
We put MOE stocks on about 3 BCM lowers a day. They are TIGHT. Yes, they do slide (so you have to have some play there), but nothing like a USGI stock.
First, play in a stock matters not. Having a stock that has ZERO play won't make you shoot faster or more accurate. So why pay the extra coin??
Truth be told, the single most important feature on the MOE stock is the rubber buttpad. This keep the stock from sliding around and gives your more control (especially when shooting one handed).
C4
I think we're in agreement. I just expected the stock to be as tight in the fully open position as it is when it's closed or just slightly open. I agree the GI stock isn't all that tight either, but it came free with the gun. :D
What's wrong with the CTR stock, though?
Failure2Stop
08-19-11, 10:50
OH
MY
LOVING
GOD
This thread will either be epic or closed in a day.
Anyway, here's my bitch list:
GripPod. Yeah, it does have some application, but in general; it forces placement that is sub-optimal for either VFG use or bipod use, doesn't swivel or cant, is huge, sucks to shoot with unless you are a chicken-choke grip fan, is really tall and non-adjustable, and offers little over a magazine monopod.
Magwell grip adapters. Such as the ones pushed out by the cheap plastic companies. They do nothing but promote a bad grip and lend credibility to a sub-standard grip and position.
3 point slings. Damnit people, get out of 2002 and into the present.
Cheap end-plate sling loops. They wear and break quickly. There is a reason that they are cheap, it isn't because you are paying for a name.
Buttstock Mag Pouches. Only useful to transport a magazine attached to the weapon. For actual use, having a mag in the pouch will limit capability. Need to carry a weapon and a magazine? Stick it in a pocket or on a belt.
Cheapo VFG/Light combinations. Trying to replicate the SF M900 is silly. Even the gold standard (the 900) isn't that great, dropping quality and construction is not the road to happiness.
6:00 light mounts. 'Nuff said.
Railed Gas Blocks. Can't do anything with them due to height and heat. Much better to keep a fixed FSB and a cut HG or a low-pro and a long rail. Gives much greater flexibility to the system.
Knock-Off Optics. 'Nuff said.
Extended Levers on Charging Handles. Having another 1/2 inch of lever sticking out of the side of the gun is not a good idea. Increases probability of catching the lever on gear, causing a failure to fire due to unlocking, or breaking the lever.
ACE Stocks. Just get an A1 or entry stock for god's sake.
A traditional piston in an AR.
I think we're in agreement. I just expected the stock to be as tight in the fully open position as it is when it's closed or just slightly open. I agree the GI stock isn't all that tight either, but it came free with the gun. :D
What's wrong with the CTR stock, though?
The $40 dollar upcharge.
C4
OH
MY
LOVING
GOD
This thread will either be epic or closed in a day.
Anyway, here's my bitch list:
GripPod. Yeah, it does have some application, but in general; it forces placement that is sub-optimal for either VFG use or bipod use, doesn't swivel or cant, is huge, sucks to shoot with unless you are a chicken-choke grip fan, is really tall and non-adjustable, and offers little over a magazine monopod.
Magwell grip adapters. Such as the ones pushed out by the cheap plastic companies. They do nothing but promote a bad grip and lend credibility to a sub-standard grip and position.
3 point slings. Damnit people, get out of 2002 and into the present.
Cheap end-plate sling loops. They wear and break quickly. There is a reason that they are cheap, it isn't because you are paying for a name.
Buttstock Mag Pouches. Only useful to transport a magazine attached to the weapon. For actual use, having a mag in the pouch will limit capability. Need to carry a weapon and a magazine? Stick it in a pocket or on a belt.
Cheapo VFG/Light combinations. Trying to replicate the SF M900 is silly. Even the gold standard (the 900) isn't that great, dropping quality and construction is not the road to happiness.
6:00 light mounts. 'Nuff said.
Railed Gas Blocks. Can't do anything with them due to height and heat. Much better to keep a fixed FSB and a cut HG or a low-pro and a long rail. Gives much greater flexibility to the system.
Knock-Off Optics. 'Nuff said.
Extended Levers on Charging Handles. Having another 1/2 inch of lever sticking out of the side of the gun is not a good idea. Increases probability of catching the lever on gear, causing a failure to fire due to unlocking, or breaking the lever.
ACE Stocks. Just get an A1 or entry stock for god's sake.
A traditional piston in an AR.
Get some F2S!
Total agreement on your list.
C4
Doc Safari
08-19-11, 10:56
Extended Levers on Charging Handles. Having another 1/2 inch of lever sticking out of the side of the gun is not a good idea. Increases probability of catching the lever on gear, causing a failure to fire due to unlocking, or breaking the lever.
Just to clarify, are you including the BCM Gunfighter charging handle in this category?
I ask because I'm still debating if I like that accessory or not, and for the reasons you cite. It's handy if you want to charge the weapon with your off hand, but it's in the way any other time.
Right now my BCM has a medium latch Gunfighter, and I ordered the small latch to try out.
I'm still old school enough to deep down inside prefer the original design at times, though.
I love me some accuwedge. I'm a bit OCD and I hate play between uppers and lowers.
Failure2Stop
08-19-11, 11:04
Just to clarify, are you including the BCM Gunfighter charging handle in this category?
My comments are more directed at the Badger Tac-Latch size.
I like the small Gunfighter and the LMT.
I feel that they are the perfect size.
I used my BCM in Afghanistan and it never caused an issue.
The more I use my AR's the more simple I want them. I do like my CTR, but I do have to agree with Grant that the lock is not worth the extra cost over the MOE. It is solid enough not using it. I don't like VFG's. I also don't need all the rails everywhere. I am liking the newer forends comming out with just a top rail and modular side and bottom rails. I don't get the Accu wedge either. You are putting increased tension where it should not be. None of my upper and lowers have any play in them.
Jk
Anything mounted @ 6:00 on the rail.
Rail covers.
3 point slings. Damnit people, get out of 2002 and into the present.
I have suspicions that the 3 point sling was a practical joke played on the World by some German.
I think I am an ass based on this thread but I think a minor ass-grip pod and it's on a carbine. Got it last week to try on my DD but have not tried it yet.
AZ-Renegade
08-19-11, 12:04
Weapon mounted lights with wire-connect pressure switches; I see too many of the damn things snag on stuff, fray, come loose or get lost.
turdbocharged
08-19-11, 12:14
Getting a flat top with a detachable carry handle and installing a scope mount that has four rails and cantilevers out over the handguard so you can put your stupid lasers and 3.00$ Advanced Auto flashlights on it, and your BSA scope.
I've seen it at the range. :bad:
Also, I agree with pretty much everything so far, and I would never drop 90$ on a CTR for the stupid lock.
Also,
anything made by NCSTAR,BSA,PRO-MAG, etc...
Edit: Just wanted to add that I think the Magpul UBR is a terrible stock for a carbine. It is so heavy and why did I pay so much to have such a heavy stock? I'd rather have the A2....
Bi-Pods. Even if its "just for the pic".
Anything Mako, the stupid VFG with light thats "Trigger" activated.
Magwell grips.
Plumcrazy lowers
AZ-Renegade
08-19-11, 12:17
The only plus to the CTR is the QD attachement points, again not worth the dinero.
......3.00$ Advanced Auto flashlights...
Now, that there is funny.........................!!
GripPod. Yeah, it does have some application, but in general; it forces placement that is sub-optimal for either VFG use or bipod use, doesn't swivel or cant, is huge, sucks to shoot with unless you are a chicken-choke grip fan, is really tall and non-adjustable, and offers little over a magazine monopod.
For sure.
Although I kept mine as it is somewhat usefull to me for bench shooting when zeroing my rifle.
Knock-Off Optics. 'Nuff said.
:mad:
This is my most hated accessory group by far. Especially after a certain personal experiance with them....
If you ever run across somebody who doesn't understand why you'd pay more for a certain brand, buy them one of these accursed things. Once they've thrown it to the ground in frustration they'll get it.
I always like the grip pod fan boys. Uhm, your AR came with a "pod." It is called the magazine and you set it on the deck (works well). :D
C4
I have a bipod that I use rarely to bench shoot (weighs less than throwing sand bags into my range bag), and I have the BCM Gunfighter- hopefully those two things are forgiven!!
I don't hate any single type of accessory, I guess- I just hate it when the reason for someone getting it is 100% to 'look cool', knowing it's probably not going to work in any real situation (but they say its just as good as Tijicon or whatever else).
Failure2Stop
08-19-11, 12:46
I have a bipod that I use rarely to bench shoot (weighs less than throwing sand bags into my range bag), and I have the BCM Gunfighter- hopefully those two things are forgiven!!
Whoah.
I am not saying that Gunfighter CHs are bad.
Just saying that the silly extended latches are . . . well, silly.
I bought the short BCM and am fully happy with it. I have not used the larger ones and cannot comment on their suitability or performance.
obnoxiously large foregrips.
especially the ones with obnoxiously large lights on them.
10,000 acres of rail estate. All those rails mean more cost and weight. I don't know what I would do with it all.
Vertical foregrips. For me, they are uncomfortable. While they make a good handstop, does a handstop need to be so large?
Cavernous battery storage on the buttstock. My HD carbine will probably have an Aimpoint and a flashlight. I don't think much battery storage will be needed.
In all honesty, the bayonet lug. While I love having a bayonet lug on certain rifles, they are as useful to me as tits on a boarhog. That won't keep me from insisting certain rifle configurations have them.
A1 upper receiver. They should have skipped over the A1 type uppers and went straight to the flat top.
The bump on the A2 grip
turdbocharged
08-19-11, 13:22
The bump on the A2 grip
You know a lot of people hate this bump but my hands are so girlishly small that it doesn't bother me. So I manage to save some cash by not upgrading to one of the more popular grips.
To each his own I say.
I'm up in the air on the BAD lever.
I had one on my gun, along with a RediMag. It was a blazing fast setup, to be sure.
The BAD felt a little flimsy since it was bolted to the bolt release, so I was always subconsciously concerned about shearing the roll pin or cracking the receiver if the lever caught on something.
I took it off because I didn't want to have to outfit all my guns with the same gear, and then relearn the manual of arms.
The much-maligned AFG.
I understand the concept, and it's not necessarily bad because of that -- it's bad because the threads of endless pictures of AFGs mounted at the back of the rail with some booger eater awkwardly clawing at the lower half of it like some rail-mounted magwell grip abortion.
Whoah.
I am not saying that Gunfighter CHs are bad.
Just saying that the silly extended latches are . . . well, silly.
I bought the short BCM and am fully happy with it. I have not used the larger ones and cannot comment on their suitability or performance.
Not to get too off-topic, but I wonder if the badger ones are bigger than the 'large' BCM ones? I have the large BCM and, with my ST-T2 buffer, anything smaller is a pain. However I can see your point F2S, and was mostly being tongue-in-cheek, I tend to agree with everything you said!
jonconsiglio
08-19-11, 13:50
Not to get too off-topic, but I wonder if the badger ones are bigger than the 'large' BCM ones? I have the large BCM and, with my ST-T2 buffer, anything smaller is a pain. However I can see your point F2S, and was mostly being tongue-in-cheek, I tend to agree with everything you said!
How does the buffer affect your charging handle?
I always like the grip pod fan boys. Uhm, your AR came with a "pod." It is called the magazine and you set it on the deck (works well). :D
C4
no joke, had someone inform me that this would create feeding issues
F2S created a solid list. What bugs me the most on there is the knockoff optics. For the hell of it, asked a guy at Gander Mountain why they carried Barska and not Aimpoint. 'Because Barska is just as good...they just didn't get a military contract so they don't charge people out the ass for their stuff' :bad:
How does the buffer affect your charging handle?
Heavier buffer means the charging handle is harder to pull back. I can tell a difference between the ST-T2 and the heavy buffer, as well as between the heavy and carbine buffer. The factory CH might be fine for a carbine buffer.
Magpul
CTR waste of money over MOE stock.
PMags are not nearly as good as everyone wants to believe.
BAD
That sling is an abortion.
AFG. Just hold the forend. It's not that difficult. You don't need a fancy toy to do that.
Every time they call someone an operator when they aren't an operator, they belittle the efforts of others. The only consolation is that there's a good chance that at that very moment, a stud is getting his balls smoked off somewhere, and getting forged into a better war fighter.
Heavier buffer means the charging handle is harder to pull back. I can tell a difference between the ST-T2 and the heavy buffer, as well as between the heavy and carbine buffer. The factory CH might be fine for a carbine buffer.
:nono:
:help:
C4
Wow, as much as I think things like all the mind pondering theory widgets like the AFG versions, or the train wrecks waiting to happen like the BAD levers, accuwedges, super awesome springs and buffers, or lastly the snake oil products like bcg coatings, poppa piston kits/guns, and the all time $3 dollar bill the KNS pins are fruity.....I simply don't have enough hate to go around for this petty stuff like hating inanimate objects that personally will never effect myself or my guns.
If you want to paint your kiddie stick pink and put all the hottest widgets in town on it, more freaking power to you and the mall's you patrol:)
Why is it that these Silky Johnson threads get so much bandwidth, is anybody learning anything or is this just a ticking timebomb of a thread in which panties and feelings are surely going to get hurt?
Doc Safari
08-19-11, 15:10
Why is it that these Silky Johnson threads get so much bandwidth, is anybody learning anything or is this just a ticking timebomb of a thread in which panties and feelings are surely going to get hurt?
I'm learning some things. There are a lot of accessories that seem like a good idea until someone has some experience with them and is able to debunk the myths.
It may be a time bomb though. Hope not.
Grant, are you saying a heavier buffer weighs more but doesn't have a stiffer spring? Not questioning you per se, it would just mean that I've been in a hugely coincidental situation, as my personal experience stands (I've only shot two AR's before- mine, and a friends carbine buffer and then heavy buffer the first time he installed it, the same day as shooting the standard buffer). Thanks for clarification.
jasonhgross
08-19-11, 15:17
AFG
BAD Lever
Grant, are you saying a heavier buffer weighs more but doesn't have a stiffer spring? Not questioning you per se, it would just mean that I've been in a hugely coincidental situation, as my personal experience stands (I've only shot two AR's before- mine, and a friends carbine buffer and then heavy buffer the first time he installed it, the same day as shooting the standard buffer). Thanks for clarification.
Buffer weights differ by a few ounces, and the spring does not change. I'd be amazed if you could feel the difference between buffer weights by pulling on the charging handle.
Grant, are you saying a heavier buffer weighs more but doesn't have a stiffer spring? Not questioning you per se, it would just mean that I've been in a hugely coincidental situation, as my personal experience stands (I've only shot two AR's before- mine, and a friends carbine buffer and then heavy buffer the first time he installed it, the same day as shooting the standard buffer). Thanks for clarification.
Uhm, there is no spring in the buffer system. It is all weights.
The force you feel when you pull the CH back is the buffer spring. The few ounces difference between a CAR, H, H2 or H3 buffer really cannot be "felt" by a human.
C4
In that case, I'll have to chalk it up to the amounts of use on each one being reason for feeling a difference. So I guess I should say on a newer, stiffer spring, it felt way better to use than the standard one.
Realistically speaking I probably hate 95%+ of aftermarket stuff. The junk/bullshit:quality ratio is just that bad. A sizable chunk of that quality 5% is made up of products which don't offer tangible benefit to any but the most prolific shooters.
In short: it would be easier to make a list of what I like, haha
DirectDrive
08-19-11, 15:47
Heavier buffer means the charging handle is harder to pull back. I can tell a difference between the ST-T2 and the heavy buffer, as well as between the heavy and carbine buffer. The factory CH might be fine for a carbine buffer.
OK, raise the muzzle slightly and then pull the charging handle.
Now you have gravity working with you when dealing with those heavy buffers.
:fie:
BAD lever
Color fill
Starks grip
UTG (Chinese) anything
Leonidas24
08-19-11, 15:49
Wow, as much as I think things like all the mind pondering theory widgets like the AFG versions, or the train wrecks waiting to happen like the BAD levers, accuwedges, super awesome springs and buffers, or lastly the snake oil products like bcg coatings, poppa piston kits/guns, and the all time $3 dollar bill the KNS pins are fruity.....I simply don't have enough hate to go around for this petty stuff like hating inanimate objects that personally will never effect myself or my guns.
Surpisingly there's no butthurt in this thread... yet. I've used an AFG in the past and still use a BAD lever after about two years and have yet to have a problem with it. If people don't like it then that's their perogotive but it's not my sentiment to share. Luckily we aren't forced to use what we don't want on our firearms (at least those of us in free states) and have the ability to build opinions on what does and does not work.
As for AR parts so despised by myself, I'd rank them in this order:
5. CAA stock saddles. Wannabe OMFG D3LTA guys in my old unit used these religiously. I'm still not sure why as they never got a good cheek weld with their rifles any way and never fully pocketed the rifle in their shoulders.
4. Grip-pod. POG-tastic. If I didn't see a POG's rifle in my battalion without one of these I would have thought something was wrong. When I asked a spritely 42A why he had one in the midst of having a new ID card printed (this was in Iraq,) he replied: "So I don't have to set my rifle on the ground."
3. Knock off sights or cheap $25 Wal-Mart sights. Sure, go spend $700 on your POS dpms rifle and then top it off with a sight that adjusts the dot by a screw which puts pressure on two springs underneath the sight. Savor the magic by purchasing a $25 tapco carry handle mount to mount on your rifle when the carry handle is removable.
2. Airsoft gun lasers. Nuff said.
1. Duostock. I don't care what people say. It is not impossible to properly shoulder a weapon when wearing body armor.
I really hate the advertising behind the products that are mentioned here. Stuff like U.S. Counter Sniper scopes, MIL-SPEC (take your pick on that), SPEC OPS.
jonconsiglio
08-19-11, 16:06
Heavier buffer means the charging handle is harder to pull back. I can tell a difference between the ST-T2 and the heavy buffer, as well as between the heavy and carbine buffer. The factory CH might be fine for a carbine buffer.
I see Grant already attended to this one….
I ran both AFG's and BAD Levers for a while. I took a hard hit on the deck and the BAD Lever broke and caused my bolt to lock back every couple of rounds. I stopped using them pretty quick at that point.
The AFG's I used for a while and they have their place but it takes getting used to. I don't run them anymore and much prefer a stubby vert grip for my needs.
One thing I really don't care for is the second gen KAC handstop. I guess they're ok if you hold it a certain way and put little rearward pressure on the rifle, but losing the contouring just doesn't seem like a great idea.
What really bothers me is people giving advice on firearms and accessories that have never used them at all or have never used a weapon professionally or even had any actual training on one. One of those three things should be mandatory for advice giving….. but this thread is specifically about accessories.
I see Grant already attended to this one….
I ran both AFG's and BAD Levers for a while. I took a hard hit on the deck and the BAD Lever broke and caused my bolt to lock back every couple of rounds. I stopped using them pretty quick at that point.
The AFG's I used for a while and they have their place but it takes getting used to. I don't run them anymore and much prefer a stubby vert grip for my needs.
One thing I really don't care for is the second gen KAC handstop. I guess they're ok if you hold it a certain way and put little rearward pressure on the rifle, but losing the contouring just doesn't seem like a great idea.
What really bothers me is people giving advice on firearms and accessories that have never used them at all or have never used a weapon professionally or even had any actual training on one. One of those three things should be mandatory for advice giving….. but this thread is specifically about accessories.
This is the problem. I always enjoy people telling me that widget XYZ is good and when asked if they have AT LEAST ran it for 1,000 rounds in a training school, the answer is almost always no. :rolleyes:
C4
Two I can't stand:
AFG
Stock AR grips. Absolutely terrible
Doc Safari
08-19-11, 16:36
This is the problem. I always enjoy people telling me that widget XYZ is good and when asked if they have AT LEAST ran it for 1,000 rounds in a training school, the answer is almost always no. :rolleyes:
C4
I agree the standard for pronouncing an item 'good' should be a lot higher, but deciding you are not going to like an accessory can literally happen as soon as you mount it on the rifle.
The BAD lever is an item I don't even have to try and I can see potential problems with it.
I'm also a bit nervous that all of the MagPul handguards, rails, VFG, and Viking Tactics flashlight holder I mounted on my carbine are all polymer. I went ahead with this for the light weight and minimal expense, but I have my doubts about the long-term ruggedness of any of it. Maybe that's the thing: the stuff is so easily replaceable that the weight savings is worth the trade-off in durability.
I realize I'm thinking out loud and I haven't really thoroughly researched metal alternatives to every accessory I've mounted, but the thought occurred to me that plastic is no bueno.
jonconsiglio
08-19-11, 16:42
I agree the standard for pronouncing an item 'good' should be a lot higher, but deciding you are not going to like an accessory can literally happen as soon as you mount it on the rifle.
Well, I can understand it to a degree, but unless you put enough rounds on something and have someone show you how to use it the correct way, how do you know for sure.
I don't care for AFG's any more, but I gave them a good try. I had a guy hold my rifle and say how much he didn't like it. Then I showed him another way to hold it. Now he has one on two of his rifles.
Try using a head mounted PVS 14 with a T1 for the first time on your own.
The much-maligned AFG.
I understand the concept, and it's not necessarily bad because of that -- it's bad because the threads of endless pictures of AFGs mounted at the back of the rail with some booger eater awkwardly clawing at the lower half of it like some rail-mounted magwell grip abortion.
I agree. I tried the AFG before I tried a VFG because it was cheaper than the VFG. I have small hands so I can't use it like its supposed to be used.
I'm not sure aftermarket accessories should even be allowed. That should be the next BAN.
The platform should remain as pure as Stoner designed it, including no forward assist. :p
But wait, that means it would have to be in .308, right?
I agree the standard for pronouncing an item 'good' should be a lot higher, but deciding you are not going to like an accessory can literally happen as soon as you mount it on the rifle.
The BAD lever is an item I don't even have to try and I can see potential problems with it.
I'm also a bit nervous that all of the MagPul handguards, rails, VFG, and Viking Tactics flashlight holder I mounted on my carbine are all polymer. I went ahead with this for the light weight and minimal expense, but I have my doubts about the long-term ruggedness of any of it. Maybe that's the thing: the stuff is so easily replaceable that the weight savings is worth the trade-off in durability.
I realize I'm thinking out loud and I haven't really thoroughly researched metal alternatives to every accessory I've mounted, but the thought occurred to me that plastic is no bueno.
Same here. Some items I can just look at something and know that they are a horrible idea.
Luckily for me, I am good friends with some of the best firearms instructors in the world and commonly ask their input on gear or guns. Many times, they will educate me on why something is not a good idea (based off their experience in combat and such).
C4
Oh my, where to begin?
I'm going to avoid all the knock off scopes, airsofts, etc. and stick strictly to things that I've bought that seemed like a legit idea or concept at the time.
AFG: Waited and waited for this thing to get released. I even checked sites hourly to see if they were available for order yet. After running one for a mere couple hundred rounds it became real apparant that I didn't do anything but add to the circumference of the rail.
LARUE RAIL SYSTEM: In all theory this should have been a major winner. It was a major failure. While I liked the concept of a smaller diameter rail system to use the forward grip on it became quickly apparent that it was so small it routinely interfered with placement of accessories that had worked fine together on previous rail systems. Now construction and materials I have zero complaint on. Quality was 100%. It was a matter of execution.
KAC HAND STOP: Seemed like a good idea. In truth I haven't totally given up on this item. I think I just haven't found the real right place for it yet.
GRIP POD: Sucker's just too long to ride on the gun alongside the radio stack on a patrol car. It's flat out quicker to prone out on the magazine and start work.
3 POINT SLING: Same failures everyone's been citing for years. Gets hung up on gear, is overcomplicated compared to two point slings.
SINGLE POINT SLINGS: I'm not going to cite this as a failure. I'm going to say it's a very mission specific piece of equipment. If you're kicking doors and need to rapidly transition or simply have your hands free for a few minutes then it's serviceable. If you're on a manhunt and need to move over a fence or something and have hands free or control someone you've got down. Or would just like to let the gun ride across you on the walk. You're going to be very disappointed in that single. Yes I'm a two point guy.
MAGPUL MS2 sling: Here's one I loved the concept of with it's ability to easily switch from two point to one point. It seemed to address everything I wrote about with the single point above. But it's made of such a thin flimsy material it's just not it for me. That along with what I'm going to write about next...
SLING POSITION POINTS: I maintain an ASP plate on my shorty primarily to experiment with from time to time. But I really have moved completely away from the sling behind the grip after reading Kyle Lamb's book. I much, much prefer it interfacing at the rearmost portion of the gun. It balances a lot better when carrying. I also attach the front portion of the sling up by the barrel nut. I know Lamb recommended it up by the front sight but I find it's much less in the way at the front of the receiver. I might as well throw in front sight tower mounting kits. For the reasons I just mentioned.
BAD LEVER: I wanted this thing to work more than anything in the world. But all it does is induce one failure to lock back after another on various guns. And I have two of them (now in a box). I've seen it debated back and forth here that it is the guns fault for somehow being out of spec? Well. It worked perfectly before I put this theoretical abortion on there.
OVERSIZE MAG RELEASE BUTTON: FAIL! I've knocked the mag out just carrying the gun since it's install several times. It's laying in a box next to the two bad levers. It didn't last long.
BADGER TAC LATCH: Yeah, no. catches on everything.
HOW I EMPLOY VERTICAL GRIPS: I used to run them by putting the full grip on them. Now I use them as a hand stop and directing the gun and getting accurate followup hits is fantastic. Old product, better method.
SUREFIRE MILLENIUM LIGHTS: Now these items never failed. Not once, not ever. They provided me with plenty of use. But here's the deal. Time and technology marches on. In 2002/03/04/05 I ran milleniums 6V 9V M900's. But now it's 2011 and I run Surefire scout lights. Fullsize, mini, X300's. They provide me with great lighting, compact rail space, and light weight.
MAGPUL MIAD GRIP SPECIAL NOTE: I have always loved this thing. Love, love, love. And then two week ago not so much. We've had some well over 100 degree heat here in Ks. this summer and right in the middle of this came an afternoon long manhunt. All that light matte patterning on the MIAD that I've used for years became way too slick for me when used with sweat soaked hands. So while I'm special noting this, not as a product failure, but as something I realize now I need to modify. I'm going to texturize one of the two I have to see how that works out for me on gripping surface. I think I'll go with the tree bark pattern. I've recently fell in love with the quality of function of that pattern after using LAV's Gen 1 G17 and seeing it's utility.
CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME: What I am now experiencing from participating in this thread.
Personal pet peeve is bipods/grippods on non-free floating rail systems. Also realized today that I hate the MOE stock like the OP - I went to find a QD socket on it and realized those only come with the CTR stock.
Doc Safari
08-19-11, 17:09
Luckily for me, I am good friends with some of the best firearms instructors in the world and commonly ask their input on gear or guns. Many times, they will educate me on why something is not a good idea (based off their experience in combat and such).
C4
I rely on the advice of people on this forum, and I don't mind a bit. It has already saved me a ton of money.
The one stupid thing I've done since gravitating back to AR's is that I've spend way too much money on different backup rear sights. I now have an LMT, a PRI, a LaRue, a couple of carry handle sights, and a Daniel Defense.
Probably if I'd just gone with the Troy folding rear sight to begin with I would have saved a bunch of cash.
I noticed today that on your site you carry several flavors of the ACOG, and I am sorely tempted. This is one area that because of the expense I want to do a lot of reading on before I take the plunge.
EDITED TO ADD: An example of something I hated the second I touched it was the Glock RTF frame.
I rely on the advice of people on this forum, and I don't mind a bit. It has already saved me a ton of money.
The one stupid thing I've done since gravitating back to AR's is that I've spend way too much money on different backup rear sights. I now have an LMT, a PRI, a LaRue, a couple of carry handle sights, and a Daniel Defense.
Probably if I'd just gone with the Troy folding rear sight to begin with I would have saved a bunch of cash.
I noticed today that on your site you carry several flavors of the ACOG, and I am sorely tempted. This is one area that because of the expense I want to do a lot of reading on before I take the plunge.
Did you see the sale we are having on them?? ;)
C4
Doc Safari
08-19-11, 17:18
Did you see the sale we are having on them?? ;)
C4
No!
Do tell--but probably I won't do this until I'm satisfied it's what I want.
(Glad to know you do have sales though). :D
Personal pet peeve is bipods/grippods on non-free floating rail systems. Also realized today that I hate the MOE stock like the OP - I went to find a QD socket on it and realized those only come with the CTR stock.
There is a fix for that.
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/qd-rotation-limited-buttstock-sling-mount-n-slot/
Haven't used it personally.
jonconsiglio
08-19-11, 17:19
I rely on the advice of people on this forum, and I don't mind a bit. It has already saved me a ton of money.
The one stupid thing I've done since gravitating back to AR's is that I've spend way too much money on different backup rear sights. I now have an LMT, a PRI, a LaRue, a couple of carry handle sights, and a Daniel Defense.
Probably if I'd just gone with the Troy folding rear sight to begin with I would have saved a bunch of cash.
I noticed today that on your site you carry several flavors of the ACOG, and I am sorely tempted. This is one area that because of the expense I want to do a lot of reading on before I take the plunge.
EDITED TO ADD: An example of something I hated the second I touched it was the Glock RTF frame.
I really like my 4x32 \, but if I had it to do over again, I'd have put that money towards a 1-4 NF or S&B.
AFGs: Had two, neither did anything for me. Now the only things on my rails are a 3 o'clock mounted light and rail covers.
SINGLE POINT SLINGS: I think this is a fad which will pass.
WINNEBAGO-SIZE STORAGE COMPARTMENTS IN BUTTSTOCKS: Self-explanatory. Kind of like pockets on guys' pants; the more you have, the more shit winds up in them.
Stuff on the lists I like:
BAD levers: I've run these in a number of classes and 3 gun matches with zero problems. EVER. They've worked exactly as advertised, and for me they're an asset.
I like the CTR just fine, and wouldn't change it out.
I really like my 4x32 \, but if I had it to do over again, I'd have put that money towards a 1-4 NF or S&B.
I really like my TA31F as well but if I were in the market for another I'd buy a TA11F. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
jonconsiglio
08-19-11, 17:51
I really like my TA31F as well but if I were in the market for another I'd buy a TA11F. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I would have been better off with the TA11 or TA33, I think over the TA31 RCO. I really noticed where it was lacking when hunting a few weeks ago at a friend's ranch. There are open areas well over 1,400 yards and a lot of wooded areas too. Once we got in there with all the brush and faint trails, I'd wish I had my T1. Then when I'd grab the T1, I'd wish I had the ACOG since I didn't take my magnifier.
ursus.peracto
08-19-11, 18:30
Some posters mention KNS pins as useless. I put a set on a build (Spike's lower, DD LPK). The trigger snapped like a fresh carrot. After the pins, it snapped like a glass rod. They made a very good trigger great. I suppose that they "can" improve some triggers but it all depends on the quality of the components, the machining of the lower and how everything fits together. I have them on 2 rifles and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to others.
.
jonconsiglio
08-19-11, 18:33
Some posters mention KNS pins as useless. I put a set on a build (Spike's lower, DD LPK). The trigger snapped like a fresh carrot. After the pins, it snapped like a glass rod. They made a very good trigger great. I suppose that they "can" improve some triggers but it all depends on the quality of the components, the machining of the lower and how everything fits together. I have them on 2 rifles and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to others.
.
I'm not sure I understand how they improved the trigger?
ursus.peracto
08-19-11, 18:38
http://i1031.photobucket.com/albums/y374/Komplete1/DSC01200.jpgIf you don't believe me, I can explain.
They replace a moving part. The trigger and hammer bores sit on a static shaft and the trigger spring doesn't sit inside grooves that may be non-concentric to the trigger pins major O.D.
jonconsiglio
08-19-11, 18:50
I just don't see them affecting a trigger's break in any way.
Johnny Rico
08-19-11, 18:56
The MOE Stock is actually a good choice and the CTR is not. So you have it backwards. ;)
If you put the MOE stock on say a BCM RE, there is no play. Very solid. Paying $40 dollars for a locking lever is just stupid IMHO.
C4
I have a MOE on my Noveske, but when I got a SR-15 upper I decided to go with the CTR. I didn't get the CTR for the locking lever, but rather for the QD mount. I suppose I could have just gotten a MOE and a DD or a Noveske end plate, but that would've been more work and would've cost nearly the same amount.
I do wish the CTR was a little cheaper though.
ursus.peracto
08-19-11, 19:41
I just don't see them affecting a trigger's break in any way.
I don't sell them, and I'm not going to analyze the statics and dynamics theory of a trigger pull/break. There are many variables in a mil-spec trigger assembly and I'm sure that you are aware of them. A few variables for the mechanics of the assembly become constants.
If you don't like how they look, fine. They do serve a purpose. They may not serve yours.
I suppose that they "can" improve some triggers but it all depends on the quality of the components, the machining of the lower and how everything fits together.
.
No!
Do tell--but probably I won't do this until I'm satisfied it's what I want.
(Glad to know you do have sales though). :D
Look at the optics section of the EE.
C4
jonconsiglio
08-19-11, 20:12
I don't sell them, and I'm not going to analyze the statics and dynamics theory of a trigger pull/break. There are many variables in a mil-spec trigger assembly and I'm sure that you are aware of them. A few variables for the mechanics of the assembly become constants.
If you don't like how they look, fine. They do serve a purpose. They may not serve yours.
I'm not one of the KNS haters. I'm just stating that a pin should not change the break of a trigger.
Another vote for the single point sling.
The only thing they excel at (for me) is keeping the rifle squarely in my way when I'm trying to do something besides shoot.
ursus.peracto
08-19-11, 20:30
I'm not one of the KNS haters. I'm just stating that a pin should not change the break of a trigger.
The pins in the Spikes/BCM build affected the consistency of the break and the little creep I had. We are parsing words here and semantics are in play. I didn't want to get into too much detail because I'm going night fishing for smallmouth bass in a few hours and was just lurking around. Now I'm defending a 30$ test purchase that worked out and I'm happy with.
They only slightly improved the trigger on my M&P but any improvement was appreciated. They may work well foe some lowers, and other not.
FYI. I bought the Spikes battle trigger for a try .My stock M&P trigger was better. Some guys love the coated battle trigger. I received another one for free from Spike's after contacting them about the machining of the trigger seer surfaces and the disconnector. The 2nd one was the same. they are sitting in a spare parts box now.
I opted for ctr instead of the moe because of the qd mount, the lock isn't important to me.
Failure2Stop
08-19-11, 20:59
Damn, how could I have forgotten the TA31 w/ red chevron!?
I hate it. From the very center of my black heart, I hate it.
It's kinda unfair, as it is an ok optic when it is used for what it is good at, but having them forced onto a whole service, seemingly from a random selection of optics that featured the words "battery free" in their marketing.
I vastly prefer the TA11 and TA33, to the extent that I put them against decent 1-4s for most applications.
As far as single point slings go, they never really worked for my application on ARs, but for some purposes (such as on an MP5K) they are pretty dandy, so I really see most of my complaints about them to be related to misapplication of an item rather than an item I dislike.
MOUNT-N-SLOT
08-19-11, 21:21
Not trying to be self-serving in any way with his list, but these things make no sense to me:
AFG - my wrist doesn't bend that way for some reason
Accuwedge - all of my uppers & receives fit tight with no play. Buy quality, or try before you buy to avoid the need for this
BAD Lever... all four I tried did not hold the bolt open on last round... gave them away
Bolt-on 1913 Rail sections on smooth, round or MOE hand guards... Why did everyone think this was a good idea? It adds weight, part count, bulk.
Removing the FSB & replacing with a gas block & Flip-up Front Sight... Another waste IMHO. I run a ACOG TA-11 and see right through my FSB. In a SHTF situation where I did have to go to irons, I only want to remember to pull up one.
MOUNT-N-SLOT
- gigantic off-brand scopes in cheap rings on carbines -- double points for mounting the scope far enough back to prevent a decent sight picture;
Yep gotta agree here
GlocksInMySocks
08-19-11, 21:49
I loathe lowers with color filled markings and just about anything you can find at a local gunshot.
Oh, and rail panels on top
Mr. Goodtimes
08-19-11, 21:49
The quickest and easiest way to judge a persons level of intelligence is by their weapon choice, optics choice/ accessories choice. My list of accessories I hate the most is too long to list but the ones that come to mind the fastest are:
1. Cheap optics. I can't stand cheap optics.
2. Magpul AFG. This thing is just homo IMO, and I love Magpul Products.
3. Railed gas blocks. WTF are these possibly good for? Run a rail over a low pro.
4. Cheap weapon lights.
5. Stupid muzzle devices like the ones from Troy and YHM etc. WTF do these do that an A2 doesnt?
6. Cheeseball BUIS.
7. Anything from UTG.
8. Cheap slings. Seriously, a Gear Sector or Vickers only runs about $40 bucks.
9. Cheap lasers, especially the green ones.
10. Accuwedge. Not only because it does absolutely nothing, but because I have to listen to people talk about how awesome it is and how it fixed the slop in that POS Colt, making it so much more accurate.
11. The DUO stock. When I see one of these it makes me want to stab a unicorn with double rainbows.
12. BAD lever. I'm a lefty and I don't even like this thing.
DirectDrive
08-19-11, 23:49
I didn't want to get into too much detail because I'm going night fishing for smallmouth bass in a few hours and was just lurking around.
Hmmm......did someone say fishin' ?
Here's what we're doing right now on the Deschutes :
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6049/kevinq.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/508/kevinq.gif/)
Bighorn, muleys, chukar, summer steelhead, fall chinook.....it's a magic place.
The next river to the east is the John Day and it's full of smallies.
John_Burns
08-20-11, 00:07
I must be a fag because I like the AFG or at least I like about 60% of the AFG.
Magpul just sells you too much AFG, just trim it down to the right size and it is a really nice addition.
In excess of 80% of the shooting population.
Because they damage my calm.
Hmmm......did someone say fishin' ?
Here's what we're doing right now on the Deschutes :
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6049/kevinq.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/508/kevinq.gif/)
Bighorn, mulies, chukar, summer steelhead, fall chinook.....it's a magic place.
The next river to the east is the John Day and it's full of smallies.
I'll absolutely die a happier man for my two fishing trips on the Deschutes, along with the numerous raft trips....I spent my time on the river around the Bend area.
Anyone that prides themselves on the beautiful art form that is fly fishing and fly tying should prob. make a trip to this particular fly fishing "Mecca".
This is exactly where I was living the dream on a cpl. lucky occasions in the past...
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEiTsIWIpG3gflOQ-I5eW8Qxg9DjdHGYE11YNnvwKPLMwex9kA5g
(google image of the river around downtown Bend.)
Sorry mods, done hijacking this cooler of hate aid, it's just not everyday I see a post about the Deschutes....nothing like angling for world class specimens in locales that are simply ah-inspiring.
Another vote for the single point sling.
The only thing they excel at (for me) is keeping the rifle squarely in my way when I'm trying to do something besides shoot.
I hate single points as well, stupid as shit.
Dirtyboy333
08-20-11, 04:05
Not to get too off-topic, but I wonder if the badger ones are bigger than the 'large' BCM ones? I have the large BCM and, with my ST-T2 buffer, anything smaller is a pain. However I can see your point F2S, and was mostly being tongue-in-cheek, I tend to agree with everything you said!
The BCM mod 3 sticks out further then the Tac Latch. I have both and love them.:)
I also love the A2 grip.
I've definately jumped off the VFG wagon. I use one but only for a hand stop so needless to say its not gonna be on my gun much longer.
As far as bipod are concerned (not grip pods:no:), I think their great on a magnified AR. I dont think i could ring 12x16 steel @600 in field positions without one. I dont see the point on setups that aren't intended for LR.
Dirtyboy333
08-20-11, 04:10
Magpul
CTR waste of money over MOE stock.
PMags are not nearly as good as everyone wants to believe.
BAD
That sling is an abortion.
AFG. Just hold the forend. It's not that difficult. You don't need a fancy toy to do that.
Every time they call someone an operator when they aren't an operator, they belittle the efforts of others. The only consolation is that there's a good chance that at that very moment, a stud is getting his balls smoked off somewhere, and getting forged into a better war fighter.
I couldnt agree more. I wanted to mention it but i didnt want to get flamed. Since you did, Thanks :p
Pmags and trigger guards are all the Magpul I own. I'm quickly favoring Lancers and KAC guards.
I don't understand the single-point hate, it's all I use. The only time I use a 2-point sling is when I need to carry my rifle into the chow hall.
I can not stand the way two points get in the way of the weapon controls, and you can forget slinging that shit over the top of body armor or under/over a pack. I've humped Afghan mountains for weeks a time and not once has carrying my rifle hooked to a single point on my chest ever been tiring or made me wish I had more shit wrapped around me. It' 7-8 pounds for christ's sake. I'm not discounting the 2 point at all and I realize most people don't have to carry their rifle at low-ready (or low-notreallyready after about 20 seconds) but the single point is definitly not "stupid" or "a fad."
The MS2 would be absolutly perfect if it made out of higher quality materials and the adjustment worked a little more smoothly. I would imagine you could take the VCAS and put the MS2 hardware on it (which I think people have been doing). The ASAP plate is also by far my favorite adaptor. The RSA isn't anything special but it gets the job done.
The AFG did not work for me either, it felt way to big and awkward in my hand and didn't jive with my flashlight setup. I much prefer to just crank on a VFG like a handstop.
I absoltuly loathe the grip-pod and will immediately assume you are a jackass if you use one. All the cheap crap guys add to their weapons that has been mentioned, CAA stock saddles, magwell grips, etc...
The new rage in the AOR is a magwell plug to keep the dust out of your rifle as you walk around the fob with it sling on your back, some of them even hold your "forcepro" magazine for you in various configurations. I guess it's better than stuffing it full of toilet paper.
Wow, as much as I think things like all the mind pondering theory widgets like the AFG versions, or the train wrecks waiting to happen like the BAD levers, accuwedges, super awesome springs and buffers, or lastly the snake oil products like bcg coatings, poppa piston kits/guns, and the all time $3 dollar bill the KNS pins are fruity.....I simply don't have enough hate to go around for this petty stuff like hating inanimate objects that personally will never effect myself or my guns.
If you want to paint your kiddie stick pink and put all the hottest widgets in town on it, more freaking power to you and the mall's you patrol:)
Why is it that these Silky Johnson threads get so much bandwidth, is anybody learning anything or is this just a ticking timebomb of a thread in which panties and feelings are surely going to get hurt?
Like a blind squirrel, you finally found your nut.
I agree with Trident 100%
SINGLE POINT SLINGS: I think this is a fad which will pass.
right. yeah. fad.
http://www.rollanet.org/~stacyw/us_1885_carbine_sling.htm
The MS2 would be absolutly perfect if it made out of higher quality materials and the adjustment worked a little more smoothly. I would imagine you could take the VCAS and put the MS2 hardware on it (which I think people have been doing).
Their crap hardware is half the problem. I wouldn't **** up a VCAS with it. But I do like the concept. The thread below tracks my progress to what is now by far my favorite sling setup.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33734
I actually just found that thread while searching for the ms2/vcas contraption :D
I actually just found that thread while searching for the ms2/vcas contraption :D
I want to try this, but I'm not sure what I think about the orientation of the ring. It will accept an HK snap hook, which is what I use. But all snap hooks are not created equal an many have a small throat which makes using them for quick convertibles a problem.
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/2-to-1-point-triglide-threads-into-your-sling-and-makes-it-convertible/
Wow...
I guess I actually disagree with most of what posted, big surprise.
I like tape switches
I think a butt stock mag pouch has a place,as limited as it may be.
I think the best thing about an MOE stock is the sling slot, then the screwed on butt pad
Mounting a light at the 6 is not all bad. And mounting "anything" there? Some thing's belong there.
Perhaps the Internet is the single worse(and best) thing, and the mouths attached to some gun owners.
Really? Your going to judge peoples intelligence by what they have on their gun?
That's like the old school 1911 guys declaring "no real combat gun has XXXXX" when I know for a fact real deal guys are using just that in combat:rolleyes:
Bob
Magic_Salad0892
08-20-11, 07:56
90% of Magpul, and LaRue products. Magpul Magazine equipment (L-Plates, dummy rounds, and followers) are bomb though.
Grip pod.
Stark SE-1 grip.
BAD lever.
The ''zombie'' magazine catch button.
ACE stocks.
Spike's ST-T2 buffer.
UTG anything.
Three Point slings.
6 O'Clock mounted anything.
C-More red dots.
Piston kits.
Pistons.
LaRue rails.
Full size VFGs. (With the exception of Tango Down, and KAC.)
Actually.
Everything. Almost.
I don't understand the single-point hate, it's all I use. The only time I use a 2-point sling is when I need to carry my rifle into the chow hall.
I can not stand the way two points get in the way of the weapon controls, and you can forget slinging that shit over the top of body armor or under/over a pack. I've humped Afghan mountains for weeks a time and not once has carrying my rifle hooked to a single point on my chest ever been tiring or made me wish I had more shit wrapped around me. It' 7-8 pounds for christ's sake. I'm not discounting the 2 point at all and I realize most people don't have to carry their rifle at low-ready (or low-notreallyready after about 20 seconds) but the single point is definitly not "stupid" or "a fad."
The MS2 would be absolutly perfect if it made out of higher quality materials and the adjustment worked a little more smoothly. I would imagine you could take the VCAS and put the MS2 hardware on it (which I think people have been doing). The ASAP plate is also by far my favorite adaptor. The RSA isn't anything special but it gets the job done.
The AFG did not work for me either, it felt way to big and awkward in my hand and didn't jive with my flashlight setup. I much prefer to just crank on a VFG like a handstop.
I absoltuly loathe the grip-pod and will immediately assume you are a jackass if you use one. All the cheap crap guys add to their weapons that has been mentioned, CAA stock saddles, magwell grips, etc...
The new rage in the AOR is a magwell plug to keep the dust out of your rifle as you walk around the fob with it sling on your back, some of them even hold your "forcepro" magazine for you in various configurations. I guess it's better than stuffing it full of toilet paper.
The issues with single point sling are many. The first issue with the sling is that its natural hanging position is in the way (dead center of your body). This means that it hits everything from your groin to your knees.
The second issue is that the gun will cover ones own feet if not controlled. Not good and was how I was almost shot when I had a round cook off in a class.
Third issue which comes from issue two, you MUST maintain positive control over the weapon at all times.
A quality 2 point sling (like the BFG Vickers) will does everything well and allows the weapon to hang low left when released. Much better choice.
Where people generally have issues with a 2 pt sling getting in the way of their gun is when they don't have it setup well. Typically speaking, you want to attach the front end around the Delta Ring Assembly. This will keep it away from any flashlight or switches. Rail space does become an issue when you have a car length rail (like on an M4).
Attaching the rear of the sling to a QD receiver plate will allow you to switch shoulders nearly as fast as single point sling.
C4
LaRue rails.
Seriously??
They make one of the strongest FF rail, with a very good price and some excellent features (QD sling point, very narrow profile.) I mean if it was such a poor product I don't believe Paul Howe would be running one on his Panteo video.
I dislike ML attitude, but his company makes really really good gear.
scoutfsu99
08-20-11, 08:50
Grant,
I think the difference b/w J8127's example and yours is application. He's looking at it from a .mil stand point. The single point sling is very useful in body armor (as is the 2 point). It's really user preference.
99% of big Army is not allowed to use a QD receiver plate. Some units will throw a fit over bolt on too.
Grant,
I think the difference b/w J8127's example and yours is application. He's looking at it from a .mil stand point. The single point sling is very useful in body armor (as is the 2 point). It's really user preference.
99% of big Army is not allowed to use a QD receiver plate. Some units will throw a fit over bolt on too.
The person that designed the BFG VICKERS Sling knows a thing or two about combat. So it isn't about my application VS a soldiers. ;)
I fully understand that the Military is not allowed to do a lot of things and this hinders their ability to correctly configure or setup their weapon.
Slings, like most everything else are a personal decision. What I see though is that people that don't like a 2 point sling might not have them setup as well as they could.
C4
Grant,
I think the difference b/w J8127's example and yours is application. He's looking at it from a .mil stand point. The single point sling is very useful in body armor (as is the 2 point). It's really user preference.
99% of big Army is not allowed to use a QD receiver plate. Some units will throw a fit over bolt on too.
I think he missed the part where he said he humped the mountains of Afghanistan with a single point.
What would he know about gear he prefers:rolleyes:
Bob
Seriously??
They make one of the strongest FF rail, with a very good price and some excellent features (QD sling point, very narrow profile.) I mean if it was such a poor product I don't believe Paul Howe would be running one on his Panteo video.
I dislike ML attitude, but his company makes really really good gear.
As a LT dealer, we see almost NO interest in their rails any more. For whatever reason, they have fallen out of favor. The hot rails now are Troy TRX/VTAC and the DD Lite Rail.
C4
scoutfsu99
08-20-11, 09:08
I get that the VCAS is an awesome sling designed by a guy who might know a thing or two. I use the VCAS and the VTAC. Generally, I'm a 2 point guy. I was just saying single points do have their uses.
ETA: We had some of these: http://www.blueforcegear.com/products/Modular-Vest-Strap.html
It made it easy to switch from single to 2 point depending on what you were doing or wanted (if you even used it)
I think he missed the part where he said he humped the mountains of Afghanistan with a single point.
What would he know about gear he prefers:rolleyes:
Bob
LOL Bob, no I caught that. The reason why he stated he did not like the 2 pt sling was because he said it interfered with his weapon controls. This leads me to believe that the 2 pt slings he has used were not setup as well as they could be. As stated the person that designed the sling BFG sells knows a thing or two about combat.
In regards to gun and gear setup, I do this for a living and yes, we have A LOT of HSLD customers that come to us for advice on configuration of THEIR weapons. Why? Because we have years of experience with most ALL the products out there, setting them up and configuring them for optimal efficiency. I am also a shooter. So I put my money where my mouth is and attend 4-5 high level shooting schools to prove ideas and theories.
C4
I didn't realize my Larue rail was no good now. :sarcastic:
I get that the VCAS is an awesome sling designed by a guy who might know a thing or two. I use the VCAS and the VTAC. Generally, I'm a 2 point guy. I was just saying single points do have their uses.
ETA: We had some of these: http://www.blueforcegear.com/products/Modular-Vest-Strap.html
It made it easy to switch from single to 2 point depending on what you were doing or wanted (if you even used it)
You are correct. Single point slings DO have their uses. Very limited these days though with the great number of quality 2 pt slings available.
C4
Yea, I do it for a living too.
I like the VCAS, but I put the ends at the ends of the rail and butstock, not the reciever.
Bob
I didn't realize my Larue rail was no good now. :sarcastic:
I stil have a LT rail on a gun. So I don't think that they are "no good." I was just making the point that we almost never sell them and if you watch the custom build forum and or look at the AR picture thread, you don't see them used much any more.
Don't really know the reason for this (to be honest).
C4
As a LT dealer, we see almost NO interest in their rails any more. For whatever reason, they have fallen out of favor. The hot rails now are Troy TRX/VTAC and the DD Lite Rail.
C4
I know, but not being the flavour of the month does not equal poor product. I'd really like to know why the hate.
Anyway, I get to buy them on the cheap on the EE so I guess it's a win win.
I'm not so sure what's the big deal with the Troy TRX, I got one (7") that came with my Noveske 300BLK and it'll be switched for a DD or a Larue. I'll probably keep the TRX for a 22lr dedicated build.
ursus.peracto
08-20-11, 09:28
right. yeah. fad.
http://www.rollanet.org/~stacyw/us_1885_carbine_sling.htm
L F'ing O F'ing F'ing L!!! :sarcastic:
Sweet catch (I like single points. They serve a purpose).
I'm not sure wht the BAD lever made the list. I recently got one and I wish I had bought it a long time ago....
Yea, I do it for a living too.
I like the VCAS, but I put the ends at the ends of the rail and butstock, not the reciever.
Bob
This is of course an option. How you have your sling configured though requires you to have to slip your arm out from the sling (creating a noose around your neck) in order to switch shoulders. It also takes much more time to do this and then get back into the sling.
With my configuration, you do not have to do this. So not only can I switch shoulders faster (similar to a single point sling), but can get the sling back into its normal position quicker. The sling ALSO hangs tighter to my body (less movement when slung).
The next issue with running the sling at the end of the rail is that it can limit you from using one of the better light positions (9 O'Clock). You can also run into problems if you utilize the more modern shooting styles (hand all the way forward clamping around the end of the rail).
We all like what we like. I have tried just about every sling on the market and run EACH of them in all kinds of different positions on the AR. Until people have tried everything in all different positions, it is really hard for anyone to say that something works the best (as they just don't know).
YMMV.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/105_N4_DD_SBR.jpg
The MOE Stock is actually a good choice and the CTR is not. So you have it backwards. ;)
If you put the MOE stock on say a BCM RE, there is no play. Very solid. Paying $40 dollars for a locking lever is just stupid IMHO.
C4
The CTR itself is stupid, or paying the extra $40 for it is stupid?
The CTR is a good stock. Making the choice to spend the extra $40 for an arguably unnecessary doodad is a personal financial decision that has no bearing on the quality of this particular accessory and applying such a presumptuous label represents an individual personal bias, not a Universal Truth.
IMHO. No offense meant.
As to the BAD lever...I tried it on a couple of my rifles, ran a couple of courses with it. I now consider it to be an unnecessary Add-on Accessory and took them off.
/
ursus.peracto
08-20-11, 09:36
Hmmm......did someone say fishin' ?
Here's what we're doing right now on the Deschutes :
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6049/kevinq.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/508/kevinq.gif/)
Bighorn, mulies, chukar, summer steelhead, fall chinook.....it's a magic place.
The next river to the east is the John Day and it's full of smallies.
Wow!! I envy you! It does look like magic! Nice fish Brother! Your playground is my definition of Heaven. :smile:
Cheers!
Failure2Stop
08-20-11, 09:39
Perhaps the Internet is the single worse(and best) thing, and the mouths attached to some gun owners.
Really? Your going to judge peoples intelligence by what they have on their gun?
That's like the old school 1911 guys declaring "no real combat gun has XXXXX" when I know for a fact real deal guys are using just that in combat:rolleyes:
Bob
Heh.
I don't hold my own opinons as infallable permanence, I certaninly hope that no one else does.
If anyone is taking this thread to be anything other than a random assortment of gripes and bitches then they are putting way too much heart in their reading.
I know lots of dudes that heard good things about an item from whatever source, and take it down range and put it to good use, never being the wiser that what they have sucks.
Doesn't mean that the item doesn't have an application, or that the user is stupid, just that it is something I generally recommend against based on experience.
But it is an inevitability that someone will get their feelings hurt or that someone will go over the top about a minor issue (and really, most of this shit is minor), and a needless argument will ensue.
Let's keep it light and in perspective.
I'm not sure wht the BAD lever made the list. I recently got one and I wish I had bought it a long time ago....
From our POV, we have seen WAY TOO MANY guns not function properly (bolt not locking to the rear on last round) to ever recommend them.
IF the bolt does lock to the rear, the next issue is that the shooter can accidentally bump the lever and close the bolt BEFORE the mag has been inserted. The shooter fails to realize that a round was not chambered and gets a click. This sequence happens much more frequently when the shooter wears gloves.
The REAL reason for why the BAD was invented was to speed up the clearning of a type 3 malfunction. Most people believe that it was designed to speed up an emergency reload. This is not true (according to Magpul).
My main argument for not needing the BAD is because the number of type 3 malfunctions we see these days is really low. The reason for this is all the great mags and and anti-tilt followers available. Back in the day when all we had was cheap USGI mags, we saw A LOT more type 3 malfunctions. Not the case today.
For those that buy the BAD to speed up an E-reload, Costa did some testing on the speed difference. It was so small that it was not worth running it.
We believe that the BAD is such a poor idea that we put our money where our mouth is and stopped stocking them.
C4
I know, but not being the flavour of the month does not equal poor product. I'd really like to know why the hate.
Anyway, I get to buy them on the cheap on the EE so I guess it's a win win.
I'm not so sure what's the big deal with the Troy TRX, I got one (7") that came with my Noveske 300BLK and it'll be switched for a DD or a Larue. I'll probably keep the TRX for a 22lr dedicated build.
I understand your point, but it isn't flavor of the month. It has been this way for years IMHO.
C4
Maybe some of the others using LaRue rails met the same problems I wrote about? Or maybe it's a result of ML's online attitude. It never worked for Todd Bailey. That said I use a lot of LaRue mounts and they've always treated me first rate as a customer.
My only problem with this thread is that it rapidly derailed from "items people have actually used on their guns and discarded" to "Lets talk shit on everything out there we don't like." I was really hoping against hope that it would endure out for a while.
The CTR itself is stupid, or paying the extra $40 for it is stupid?
The CTR is a good stock. Making the choice to spend the extra $40 for an arguably unnecessary doodad is a personal financial decision that has no bearing on the quality of this particular accessory and applying such a presumptuous label represents an individual personal bias, not a Universal Truth.
IMHO. No offense meant.
As to the BAD lever...I tried it on a couple of my rifles, ran a couple of courses with it. I now consider it to be an unnecessary Add-on Accessory and took them off.
/
Paying the extra $40. The CTR is well made, but the MOE is a much better value.
C4
Heh.
I don't hold my own opinons as infallable permanence, I certaninly hope that no one else does.
If anyone is taking this thread to be anything other than a random assortment of gripes and bitches then they are putting way too much heart in their reading.
I know lots of dudes that heard good things about an item from whatever source, and take it down range and put it to good use, never being the wiser that what they have sucks.
Doesn't mean that the item doesn't have an application, or that the user is stupid, just that it is something I generally recommend against based on experience.
But it is an inevitability that someone will get their feelings hurt or that someone will go over the top about a minor issue (and really, most of this shit is minor), and a needless argument will ensue.
Let's keep it light and in perspective.
F2S,
That was not directed at you! I tend to pay attention to what you say, more then most, even if I disagree;)
It just so happen,you had an early post with some stuff I disagree'd with.
My point was, sorta, there seems to be a lot of rants, whines, and peeves posts lately, as if I care that you don't like my poor spelling.
And some universal slamming going on, and reverse elitism.
Maybe I'm just burnt out on teh Internet.
Bob
Paying the extra $40. The CTR is well made, but the MOE is a much better value.
C4
Agreed.
Heh.
I don't hold my own opinons as infallable permanence, I certaninly hope that no one else does.
If anyone is taking this thread to be anything other than a random assortment of gripes and bitches then they are putting way too much heart in their reading.
I know lots of dudes that heard good things about an item from whatever source, and take it down range and put it to good use, never being the wiser that what they have sucks.
Doesn't mean that the item doesn't have an application, or that the user is stupid, just that it is something I generally recommend against based on experience.
But it is an inevitability that someone will get their feelings hurt or that someone will go over the top about a minor issue (and really, most of this shit is minor), and a needless argument will ensue.
Let's keep it light and in perspective.
Agree. Much butthurt going on lately (1911 thread, this one, etc).
I come to M4C to learn. I learn something almost everyday from a random M4C member (even you Bob). ;)
The purpose of M4C is for EDUCATED (meaning trained gun owners) to share their info. Some of us will have different experiences than others giving input based off what they know. No one person has all the answers, but it is true that some have way more knowledge than others.
If people are not comfortable with someone questioning what they say, giving a different POV or NOT agreeing with them, then M4C is not for them (as their ego is too thin).
I attend training schools to improve my abilities. This means that I receive and accept input from the instructor. It isn't always a pleasant experience, but is good for me.
C4
jonconsiglio
08-20-11, 10:07
As I've said before about the BAD Lever and even started a thread a good while back, it's not just the fact it might not lock back on the last round, it's what happens when it breaks.
I was running a drill and my gun smacked the deck at just the right angle. I fired a couple rounds and the bolt locked back. This happened a couple more times until I figured out what was wrong. It bent the lever but also stripped the rear plate somehow causing it to hold the catch open just enough.
Edit - I should add when I posted the thread about this, which was not to badmouth the product but to show what can happen, Dozer (from Magpul) immediately contacted me and sent me a new one. He also sent me a new MS2 sling wince I broke one of those as well. They are very good with their customers.
I don't use the single point slings anymore either, but I appreciate Magpul's customer service, nonetheless.
After I bent it back a bit, but you get the idea.
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/Misc/BAD-03-1.jpg
F2S,
That was not directed at you! I tend to pay attention to what you say, more then most, even if I disagree;)
It just so happen,you had an early post with some stuff I disagree'd with.
My point was, sorta, there seems to be a lot of rants, whines, and peeves posts lately, as if I care that you don't like my poor spelling.
And some universal slamming going on, and reverse elitism.
Maybe I'm just burnt out on teh Internet.
Bob
Rant/pet peeve threads CAN have some advantages. Cases in point, the guy in this thread that thought the weight of a buffer changed how much resistance the CH has.
Or someone that was thinking about spending money on a BAD lever just learned of its pitfalls.
So good CAN come out of this type of stuff. It is also interesting to see what people like and why. Some of them have legit reasons and others do not. It kind of tells you a lot about various members.
You are right about the errornet burning you out though. There are many times where I just have to back off for awhile because I am about to "snap into a slim jim." :shout:
C4
This thread is about gear you dislike, please stay on topic or you will find your thread removed.
eternal24k
08-20-11, 10:52
i agree with almost everything in this thread except the single point slings and the BAD
skullworks
08-20-11, 11:03
If anyone is taking this thread to be anything other than a random assortment of gripes and bitches then they are putting way too much heart in their reading.
Or, they came here to validate their purchase(s) only to realize they bought something many think is crap, and now they feel their manhood and intelligence is being threatened. Seen that happen "once or twice" (though not necessarily in this thread). :rolleyes:
right. yeah. fad.
http://www.rollanet.org/~stacyw/us_1885_carbine_sling.htm
You know what they say: Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it ;)
lawusmc0844
08-20-11, 12:14
I don't understand all the hate on the AFG and BAD? They are all I run these days. The AFG gripping style is very comfortable for me and the BAD has never given me problems on multiple systems, including my issued M4. If I remember correctly, even Chris Costa mentioned at last year's SHOT show that the "theory based products" is not for everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzrgfxxsNlw
I do prefer the CTR over MOE because I do find the locking lever and QD hole useful. It sucks it costs more but not a big issue for me since I don't pay MSRP for anything anyway.
Here's my hate list however
Cheap-ass optics
UTG
CAA/EMA (These assholes MUST be the same entity, too many similarities)
Pro-Mag
Accuwedge (How are people so bothered by upper/lower play?? So they must like field stripping with punches :rolleyes:)
3 Point Slings (Pogue ass Marines still run these, I don't understand why, especially when many of them can't even figure out how to install them themselves :rolleyes: )
A2 grip
Colt's barrel mounted sling loop (on military M4s)
I'll throw out some blasphemy here. I hate the Magpul AFG, Angled Fore Grip although I agree with the mechanics behind the design I don't feel that a special grip is needed to acheive the training goal. I think it is more a product of Magpul's marketing department than their training department. Seeing them on pump shotguns and AK's is just plain stupid as the mechanic of these platfoms render the locked support arm/hand wrap of the forend impossible to use in the first place. Ya, wrap your hand all the way around my Benelli for 20-30 rapid fire rounds and get back to me after the skin grafts heal on how well that works for ya. On an M4 or AK a stubby vertical grip makes a great index point and a barrier contact point and the Magpul VFG is a much better tool in that regard, especially in the price and weight catagories.
Failure2Stop
08-20-11, 12:31
Maybe I'm just burnt out on teh Internet.
Bob
I get that too now and then.
Nor was mine fully directed at you.
I think you are a valuable resource here.
Some of the problem with the single point sling is definition/use. To me a sling is used to carry a carbine without my hands. Single points suck at this because they bounce the barrel repeatedly into your groin or knees. The only time this is not true is with a very short carbine but it is now pointing the muzzle at your groin or knees.
As a retention strap for use when you won't have to take both hands off your carbine to do other things they can be a great option.
The old Cavalry sling rob_s found is a perfect example. There is no way you could ride a horse with a carbine bouncing around on a sling like that, so the purpose would seem to be retention if dropped.
BAD Lever and AFG... both abortions that shouldn't be allowed on any AR... unless your AR already has a Grip Pod on it.
Expensive sling attachments are a waste of money along with the CTR. Once I bought a MOE stock, I bought 4 more. I still have my one and only CTR by default.
Anything with an ARMS lever is a complete piece of shit, along with the rest of their product line.
"Redundant Red Dot Sights'' are the indicator for village idiot.
I dont really HATE anything.
My gripe is with shit that you dont "Need" in general.
I understand this is the age of "Making life easier" and with everything so readily available that seems the route most folks go with. I can agree with cheap ass accesories that are made in china that dont even last on the trip TO the range much less combat or training classes.
There is no single product that actually gets me MAD or that I hate, but if I was going to show any emotion other than happiness, it would most likely be frustration...and it would stem from seeing a weapon that was overloaded with so much crap that it wouldnt even be fun to shoot let alone take a training class or go into combat with.
I have a few friends that ask me if I like thier rifle or "Why dont you want to shoot it? its fun!" No not really, its not really fun, its heavy, the handling is horrible from too much CRAP!
To me its like spending 30 minutes looking for a tool that will save you 5 minutes on a job, It might work, but its just not worth it
"need" is a moving target. What you may think is useless, is indispensable to others.
Just for discussion, rather then an unfair rant from earlier
A tape switch allows me to put the light and switch any where I want
A butt-stock mag pouch allows me to have an extra mag with me, with little drama. I really don't have a need for one, but can see where they fill a niche. We used to go on training missions with a spare mag taped to the butt-stock, and no lbe/helmet, etc.
I like the MOE, because the slot allows me a simple sling attachment, that doesn't move. I don't care for the swivels, and the pad is semi- permanently attached, no need for a zip tie.
I've been stuck with a light at the 6, its not the end of the world, but some times its your only option. At least ya gotta light.
Nothing at the 6? What about a VFG for those that like them, or a handstop?
I don't see the point in MOE handguards, though
I guess, like almost everyone has said, the things I hate the most, are the endless table of cheap knock off, chinese made crap at the gunshows.
If you like a VFG, cool, a RDS cool, light, rail, 1,2,3 pt sling, I don't care, but put cheap made versions of those on a gun, and declare them just as good, and I have an issue.
Bob
Attaching the rear of the sling to a QD receiver plate will allow you to switch shoulders nearly as fast as single point sling.
I agree with you about the end plate being faster, but I run my 2 point off the back of the stock and having the QD point on the outside (right side of the stock if shooting from the right shoulder) helps keep the sling out of the way even when shooting weak side since the sling isn't turned into a noose when transitioning.
The next issue with running the sling at the end of the rail is that it can limit you from using one of the better light positions (9 O'Clock). You can also run into problems if you utilize the more modern shooting styles (hand all the way forward clamping around the end of the rail).
I had this same problem when I first started running an RSA and a HK hook at the front sight. I moved the RSA back until it was about an inch or two behind my support hand on the rail and haven't had a problem since. I will try to drum up pics if you are interested.
chamber143
08-20-11, 14:34
Kind of response and question...
Things i hate are utg shit the BAD isnt all that bad from my perspective...although on my everyday carry it didnt make the cut. After my recent BCM rifle purchase i truly dont see the reason in buying anything that isnt built to be ran...so i see my bushys are peices of shit and with a few bucks more i could have bought quality. Quick question though...grant please chime being most all my stuff is bought from you or paul...my everyday gun was built with light as possible in mind. I went with the moe handguard on the 14.5 middy and love how it fits my hand. But i hate using the front sling on the mount under fsb. How can i attach it closer to the delta ring with out the whole IWC shit because although it looks like a great idea, doesnt seem like it will be as durable as i want. Keep in mind that the barrel is pinned and dont want to go through all the bs of removing it to change handguards. I was thinking about the dd omega rails but how good are they with regards to twisting, i know i am off topic and probably will get yelled at but dammit i already typed all this so i will just deal with it, thanks
I really hate things that people think they need, but can't justify to anyone beyond their mother as to why they need it. Perfect example is a guy that "needed" a VFG because he needed something to grab onto because there was too much stuff on his rail. The stuff on his rifle had a UTG 2 piece quad rail, a cheap knock off light on the left side, a laser on the right (the size of a hot dog BTW), and this weird bottle opener looking contraption on top so he couldn't grip his 7" forend.
Oh yeah, miles and miles of rail covers like XTM's, XT's, and such on a rail when a person only grips in one spot anyways because of a VFG. :rolleyes:
Oh yeah, I ***NEED*** one of these for some reason. No logic is involved with this object.
http://jtdistributing.net/store/product1448.html
But i hate using the front sling on the mount under fsb. How can i attach it closer to the delta ring with out the whole IWC shit because although it looks like a great idea, doesnt seem like it will be as durable as i want.
I have the same bbl/handguard setup and have come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is toss a drop in rail and a sling mount on it, or tie the sling to the FSB with paracord.
Kind of response and question...
Things i hate are utg shit the BAD isnt all that bad from my perspective...although on my everyday carry it didnt make the cut. After my recent BCM rifle purchase i truly dont see the reason in buying anything that isnt built to be ran...so i see my bushys are peices of shit and with a few bucks more i could have bought quality. Quick question though...grant please chime being most all my stuff is bought from you or paul...my everyday gun was built with light as possible in mind. I went with the moe handguard on the 14.5 middy and love how it fits my hand. But i hate using the front sling on the mount under fsb. How can i attach it closer to the delta ring with out the whole IWC shit because although it looks like a great idea, doesnt seem like it will be as durable as i want. Keep in mind that the barrel is pinned and dont want to go through all the bs of removing it to change handguards. I was thinking about the dd omega rails but how good are they with regards to twisting, i know i am off topic and probably will get yelled at but dammit i already typed all this so i will just deal with it, thanks
http://www.blueforcegear.com/products/Blue-Force-Gear%C2%AE-Universal-Wire-Loop%E2%84%A2.html
-Sent From Mobile Device
---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.279301,-95.447322
Failure2Stop
08-20-11, 15:17
How can i attach it closer to the delta ring with out the whole IWC shit because although it looks like a great idea, doesnt seem like it will be as durable as i want.
And through what testing/resource did you verify that IWC "shit" isn't up to your durability standards?
jonconsiglio
08-20-11, 15:24
I think seem says it all…. exactly what I was talking about in my first post.
I must be one of the only that likes the AFG. I never really cared for VFGs and always seemed to use it like a AFG anyhow. I tried the AFG2 (never tried the original larger AFG) and really liked it. It complimented my natural grip and I really liked wrapping my fore finger around the forward lip. I've only used them on my middies and think the grip on a carbine would be too short.
I also tried the BAD for a very short period. It was too sloppy and did have a bolt lock failure on an empty mag. It came off immediately.
I also dislike the NCStar products almost as much as UTG. But I do have a UTG case that was given to me and has lasted for some time now in consistent Use.
HAIL-CAESAR
08-20-11, 16:08
I actually like the AFG. I had a shattered wrist and the AFG makes my wrist hurt way less at the end of a day.
BAD is a POS.
Any of the cheap crap Chinlee products.
Wouldn't buy a LaRue product unless nobody else makes an alternative.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-20-11, 16:27
Wouldn't buy a LaRue product unless nobody else makes an alternative.
why is that?
HAIL-CAESAR
08-20-11, 16:30
why is that?
Because of the man's attitude. No money in his pocket from me.
scoutfsu99
08-20-11, 16:35
why is that?
He has an...interesting online presence, that would be my guess. It's not b/c his stuff isn't top notch.
I'm with Bob. Some things that work for people may not work for others. What really gets me is when people throw cheap garbage on and pretend that it's the same as quality items.
The much-maligned AFG.
I understand the concept, and it's not necessarily bad because of that -- it's bad because the threads of endless pictures of AFGs mounted at the back of the rail with some booger eater awkwardly clawing at the lower half of it like some rail-mounted magwell grip abortion.
Yup the AFG is on my list too especially on a Carbine or SBR.
I don't hate my CTR's but will not buy another. The MOE works great for me with the sling attached at the but pad and cost about half the coin and it islighter.
Anything Chicom ie NC Star.
Rails are a waste of time and money For ME. MOE handguards rock.
richdkim77
08-20-11, 17:27
My 2 cents:
I like LaRue products, but I wouldn't purchase their rails again as they sit now. Mainly because of price. I think their rails should be around $175 to be competitive.
I don't like the MOE stock. Like some have mentioned, I find that it wobbled on some extensions, including 1 LMT extension. I used to buy CTR's from DSG arms for $67, which is only a few dollars more than some retailers sold their MOE for. At that price point, completely worth it for the lock and QD socket for me.
I like single point slings. When I deploy my rifle it's usually for short periods, and I've always trained with a single point because I find it easier to have both of my hands free if I have to go hands on. I don't believe the single point is the end all be all, just better for my applications.
Great Thread...one observation... Since I'm not a right handed rifle shooter, I never used a BAD lever, did not know so many did not use them after trying them. Our department forbids using them as they do not like contraption in the trigger well, now I see why.
justin_247
08-20-11, 17:27
Compensators / muzzle brakes - it seems like everybody has them nowadays. I can understand having one if you always shoot suppressed or if you're a competition shooter, but for everything else they make very little sense to me. Maybe a Battlecomp or Triple Tap is acceptable, but beyond them they're just obnoxiously loud flash generators.
AFGs on carbine-length handguards - too many Mall Ninjas have adopted the AFG, and more often than not it seems like I see them on shorter handguards where a VFG or hand stop would be much more appropriate. They're a great example of a "theory-based product" being used where no attention was paid to the theory to begin with.
skullworks
08-20-11, 17:35
AFGs on carbine-length handguards - too many Mall Ninjas have adopted the AFG, and more often than not it seems like I see them on shorter handguards where a VFG or hand stop would be much more appropriate. They're a great example of a "theory-based product" being used where no attention was paid to the theory to begin with.
:agree: "This is not for you!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzrgfxxsNlw&feature=player_detailpage#t=143s)
Magpul MBUS, absolutely hate these. Troy flip up or DD/Larue fixed are 10 times more rugged and not that more expensive.
3 point slings: nuff said.
ARMS mount. Piece of shit throw lever that will break.
Accuwedge : I like a tight fit between the upper and the lower but not at the cost of a piece that can break in the FCG and cause malfunction.
Side-charging uppers: Very expensive, add more gas in the shooter's face especially suppressed. Solution looking for a problem.
Fake acog red dots, well any fakes/clones optics.
friendlyfireisnt
08-20-11, 17:43
Because of the man's attitude. No money in his pocket from me.
Meh. He's just a Texan, sometimes he comes across a bit gruff. That said, he makes great gear and he is usually my top choice for mounts and such. His personality doesn't really steer me away from his products.
Things I don't like:
- Bipods on short rails, especially non-free float rails. What's the point?
- Bipods and VFG/AFG on the same rail.
- Rifles that have every cool guy accessory on there, but have the absolute cheapest knock-off optic possible mounted.
- Same as above, but rifles that have every expensive cool toy attached, but the base rifle is a POS DPMS.
I don't hate on the CTR stock, but my latest build, I went without and just got the MOE. CTR really doesn't add anything extra I need at this point.
The AFGs work well for me, especially for my shotgun.
But I've stopped using the BADs for a number of reasons. Most as discussed.
I'd say the biggest rip offs I encountered are the PRI Gasbuster, doesn't bust jack or shit. That and I just realized running a Can comes with downsides.
KAC triple taps...I wish I'd just gone with a 300 dollar cheaper surefire muzzle device to begin with. :(
Meh. He's just a Texan, sometimes he comes across a bit gruff. That said, he makes great gear and he is usually my top choice for mounts and such. His personality doesn't really steer me away from his products.
Things I don't like:
- Bipods on short rails, especially non-free float rails. What's the point?
- Bipods and VFG/AFG on the same rail.
- Rifles that have every cool guy accessory on there, but have the absolute cheapest knock-off optic possible mounted.
- Same as above, but rifles that have every expensive cool toy attached, but the base rifle is a POS DPMS.
I don't hate on the CTR stock, but my latest build, I went without and just got the MOE. CTR really doesn't add anything extra I need at this point.
I agree with the bipods thing. They are unnessecary in every sense of the word.
DirectDrive
08-20-11, 18:38
Magpul MBUS, absolutely hate these. Troy flip up or DD/Larue fixed are 10 times more rugged and not that more expensive.
They remind me of a European cabinet hinge.
HAIL-CAESAR
08-20-11, 18:51
Compensators / muzzle brakes - it seems like everybody has them nowadays. I can understand having one if you always shoot suppressed or if you're a competition shooter, but for everything else they make very little sense to me. M
I always thought the same thing.
Troy's Nav Stock!
http://troyind.com/%20/troy-weapon-upgrades/troy-nav-stock
Nothing at 6 O'CLOCK? I completely disagree!
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=304&pictureid=1680
theblackknight
08-20-11, 20:42
Grippod: the plasitc ones usually cause rounds to impact high at 500.
Buttstock mag pouch: you dont even need those 10 security rounds. your ice cream is safe.
MS2: slider didnt work at all.
having a tourniquet on your weapon/gear:ever heard of sunfade/dry rot you dbag?
People who hate on PMAGs: Lancers? Really? they are louder then USGI's when emtpy you ****ing hipster.
100y old man plinker guns: really? all that crap just to shoot brench rest?
Pencil barrels: what was a good idea for women turned into the equivalent of "real men wear pink"bandwagon.
Best description of GripPods I ever heard was "chow-hall kickstand."
2theXtreme
08-20-11, 20:50
Call me silly but if you are running a AFG on you Carbine length rail isn't your hand in the exact same spot it would be if you had a VFR on there? At the very end of the rail?:confused:
Failure2Stop
08-20-11, 20:55
TBK-
You're going to catch all kinds of hell for that, but it brought a smile to my face.
:dance3:
theblackknight
08-20-11, 20:57
Best description of GripPods I ever heard was "chow-hall kickstand."
Beer should be in my mouth, not all over my keyboard:)
charmcitycop
08-20-11, 20:59
Grip pods
AFG on carbine length rails
Good accessories on junk rifles.
Junk accessories on good rifles
MS2 sling - it works fine "slick" but awful if you are kitted up.
More like a lanyard than a sling in my opinion
Cheap optics - why not just use the BUIS and save your money for an Aimpoint/EoTech?
ForTehNguyen
08-20-11, 22:22
I must be one of the only that likes the AFG. I never really cared for VFGs and always seemed to use it like a AFG anyhow. I tried the AFG2 (never tried the original larger AFG) and really liked it. It complimented my natural grip and I really liked wrapping my fore finger around the forward lip. I've only used them on my middies and think the grip on a carbine would be too short.
I actually like the AFG, and have 6 BADs that all work
I hate that VFG that has a spring loaded bipod inside because it always leaves the gun crooked.
I have four BAD levers two went through a Carbine course, I loaned one to a buddy in class because he wanted to run an SBR. He couldn't figure the thing out. I love mine but will be thinking hard about removing them after hearing about the issues some of you've seen/experienced.
Anyone want them in trade towards a Troy Nav Stock?
:rolleyes:
I did a Magpul course a few months back. Not one Magpul rifle had a BAD Lever on it. Take that for what it is worth.
I hate that VFG that has a spring loaded bipod inside because it always leaves the gun crooked.
Yeah that's a pretty awful piece of equipment.
Things I don't like:
-Anything airsoft or Chinese thrown onto a gun (RDS, lasers, rails--everything (sans a VFG, since I could give a **** less what it's made of so long as it breaks before ****ing up my $300 rail system))
-Grip pods
-3 point slings (I think single-points have a place, especially for entry teams)
-Pencil barrels for general use
-Synthetic lowers/uppers
-titanium firing pins ('they're FASTER')
-Things with gay spiders on the side
-TiN anything
-BAD levers/derivatives
-Cassette triggers
-Most all brakes sans special application
-Accuwedges
-'lightened' BCG's
-Piston conversions
-'self-adjusting' buffers and hydraulic buffers
-Huge charging handles
-Railed gas blocks
-fullsize ambi-selectors
-Enlarged mag releases
-Stark Grips
-Hogue Grips
-Any grip with a high backstrap
-AFG's
-Pressure switches sans newish Surefire ones
-Endplate sling adapters (sans special application)
-Redi-mag (sans special application)
-Billet lowers
-Billet uppers
-Monolithic rail platforms (only because I'm exacting and weird... and have also ruined rail systems before. Though I have been temped by the siren before...)
-Bipods on carbines
-Any sort of, 'bumpfire' device
-Magwell grips
-Most aftermarket magazines
....and more
but I do like ACE stocks, especially on Kalash's. The SOCOM in particular I really like and four of the five AR's I own sport them.
Things I don't like:
-Anything airsoft or Chinese thrown onto a gun (RDS, lasers, rails--everything (sans a VFG, since I could give a **** less what it's made of so long as it breaks before ****ing up my $300 rail system))
-Grip pods
-3 point slings (I think single-points have a place, especially for entry teams)
-Pencil barrels for general use
-Synthetic lowers/uppers
-titanium firing pins ('they're FASTER')
-Things with gay spiders on the side
-TiN anything
-BAD levers/derivatives
-Cassette triggers
-Most all brakes sans special application
-Accuwedges
-'lightened' BCG's
-Piston conversions
-'self-adjusting' buffers and hydraulic buffers
-Huge charging handles
-Railed gas blocks
-fullsize ambi-selectors
-Enlarged mag releases
-Stark Grips
-Hogue Grips
-Any grip with a high backstrap
-AFG's
-Pressure switches sans newish Surefire ones
-Endplate sling adapters (sans special application)
-Redi-mag (sans special application)
-Billet lowers
-Billet uppers
-Monolithic rail platforms (only because I'm exacting and weird... and have also ruined rail systems before. Though I have been temped by the siren before...)
-Bipods on carbines
-Any sort of, 'bumpfire' device
-Magwell grips
-Most aftermarket magazines
....and more
but I do like ACE stocks, especially on Kalash's. The SOCOM in particular I really like and four of the five AR's I own sport them.
I HATE all that shit too, especially AFG'S!!! I was thinkin of a mount more like this for my M4. I would be awesome with a grip pod attached to the M203!! I even have the spider!
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/Zipline/2009shotshow-01172009-001.jpg
Dirtyboy333
08-21-11, 01:06
Grippod: the plasitc ones usually cause rounds to impact high at 500.
Buttstock mag pouch: you dont even need those 10 security rounds. your ice cream is safe.
MS2: slider didnt work at all.
having a tourniquet on your weapon/gear:ever heard of sunfade/dry rot you dbag?
People who hate on PMAGs: Lancers? Really? they are louder then USGI's when emtpy you ****ing hipster.
:confused:....Does it matter? Or are you just saying it bugs you and you hate it?
100y old man plinker guns: really? all that crap just to shoot brench rest?
Pencil barrels: what was a good idea for women turned into the equivalent of "real men wear pink"bandwagon. Agreed :D thats funny
Clarkm: I thought that the VFG with the bipod was the "grip pod"??? i may have it confused with something else.
having a tourniquet on your weapon/gear:ever heard of sunfade/dry rot you dbag?
What about for a situation where you do not have access or it does not make sense to otherwise carry a full blown IFAK/Blowout kit?
Pencil barrels: what was a good idea for women turned into the equivalent of "real men wear pink"bandwagon.
A lot of dead VC/NVA would beg to differ
I'll add MOE handguards...
I don't see the point, I can add everything I need to a gun, with the standard handguard, if I wanna be cheap about it.
Which bring me to I hate anything with "kiss" attached to it.
Bob
Ambi safety/selector.
Magpul AFG: any other company that used pictures of guys with cutlasses to describe their product's genesis would have been laughed off the market. The Ergo "C" hooks do the same job more efficiently, with less bulk, for a fraction of the cost.
I did a Magpul course a few months back. Not one Magpul rifle had a BAD Lever on it. Take that for what it is worth.
Speaks volumes.
theblackknight
08-21-11, 07:49
What about for a situation where you do not have access or it does not make sense to otherwise carry a full blown IFAK/Blowout kit?
A lot of dead VC/NVA would beg to differ
put it in somewhere. It's worth knowing it will work when you pull it out.
Lots of people in the US have been serviced by one of these,dosent mean it's a good idea http://www.tampaforums.com/forums/attachments/sports-recreation-fs/7932d1213043949-raven-arms-25-pistol.jpg
JoshuaJJackson
08-21-11, 08:18
put it in somewhere. It's worth knowing it will work when you pull it out.
You realize there may be a purpose to doing that right?[having it attached to gear etc..] As well as making sure it works, making sure its attached to you when you need it may be helpful as well.
And a pouch doesn't always ensure that.
chamber143
08-21-11, 08:38
I guess i need to clarify..I was in no way refering to IWC products as shit, just refering to the response of IWC. I clearly know that they are in business and that it is an option, just cant ever seem to get one while they are in stock. Sorry for the confusing statement. BTW Earl seems like a stand up guy that stands by his products and i would have absolutly no fears with dealing with him. I would like to personally and publicly say that i am sorry for the comment, i meant no ill will.
EzGoingKev
08-21-11, 08:50
I agree with the previous statement about the Magpul hand guards. What are these doing for you that the stock plastic hand guards do not?
Personal preference here, but I think extended rails that have the cut out for the stock FSB look ridiculous.
Anything marketed with mil spec, SOCOM/USSOCOM, DELTA, DEVGRU, SEAL, etc.
Anyone throwing around "face shooter". The person using it feels like he is letting everyone know that he is a cool guy in the know but what I read is "I AM A DILDO WANNABE".
People who need to let everyone know they walk on water because they dropped hundreds on a Surefire flash light.
The Magpul sling. I watched Costa use it in the video and said that sling is awesome. Maybe I am just ****ing useless because for the life of me I cannot get that thing to work like demo'd in the video. It is too skinny too.
People that go on and on about how spending money on a trigger could be better spent on ammo and/or a class but make sure they spend a few extra hundred making sure they spend a few hundred extra on CHF barrel.
When Poster A states that he tried something and had good results. Now poster B, C, D, all the way through Z come along and announce they just ordered one and Poster A has to tell each and every single one of them they won't be disappointed.
The BS announcement threads like "Making the switch back to 9mm". Good for you, I am surprised CNN didn't pick it up.
The BS this vs that threads like .45 vs 9mm, 1911 vs Glock, Revolver vs Auto shit that has been gone over ad nauseaum every where on the fricking globe.
The "solution looking for a problem" post guys that feel the need to post that everywhere. While it is true in some situations, a lot of times they just come off as a "post with atitude looking for a thread".
The LWRC proprietary lower that has the enlarged magwell so that their proprietary polymer 6.8 mags can be used. What is so necessary about using polymer mags in the first place?
justin_247
08-21-11, 09:21
The Magpul sling. I watched Costa use in the video and said that sling is awesome. Maybe I am just ****ing useless because for the life of me I cannot get that thing to work like demo'd in the video. It is too skinny too.
I completely agree. The Magpul sling sucks! It's so thin that it's uncomfortable, and you need all kinds of proprietary crap just to use it. "Buy our $50 sling! Oh, wait, you can't use it with any of the regular sling mounting points in your rifle, so you'll need to buy a $30 ASAP plate that you can hear from 300 yards away. WHAT!? You want to use it as a 2-point sling? Well then you'll need to buy our $30 RSA!" It's all a marketing scam to me.
I think a lot of the Dynamic Carbine videos are marketing, as well. It very nearly turned me off when I was first watching and within the first half-hour, they're showing off their BAD levers and sling, and seemed to have given all the participants a MOE buttstock. How about we focus on the fundamentals first before we get going with the gadgetry?
Don't get me wrong, Magpul does make good stuff. Half of my mags are PMAGs, the remainder have Magpul followers, and I like their MOE grip and stocks. But the whole "theory based products" thing is ridiculous - the very word "theory" turns me off.
Jay Cunningham
08-21-11, 09:26
Anyone throwing around "face shooter". The person using it feels like he is letting everyone know that he is a cool guy in the know but what I read is "I AM A DILDO WANNABE".
:laugh:
I agree with the previous statement about the Magpul hand guards. What are these doing for you that the stock plastic hand guards do not?
They save me money and work. I like that I can add a small MOE rail for less than $5 and mount my light. I had rails on all of my guns but I just do not need the space all they were doing for me was holding a light, usually a sling and a VFG. I can do that well for less than $100 with the MOE set up. If you need to mount lasers and IR a rail makes sense, just way beyond my needs and wallet.
I personally like the Magpul MOE handguards as an alternative to the stock round handguards.
I hate Chinese knock-off bullshit and imitation "cheapo" weapons parts. People that produce that stuff should have their eyes gouged out by little cockroaches with dull needles.
I like Battle Arms selector levers, Surefire lights, Centurion rails, Troy stubby QD VFG's and Tango Down pistol grips, DD rails, Vltor A5 system, PMAG's and Vickers slings.
I used to use a single point and it certain applications it is great. However, it isn't the best for every situation.
I especially the garbage AR peddlers who use smoke and mirrors to sell their inferior shit at almost the same price as the good companies.
The BCM Gunfighter and the Vltor A5 are two of the best products to come along for the AR in the last 10 years.
DeltaSierra
08-21-11, 09:52
I personally like the Magpul MOE handguards as an alternative to the stock round handguards.
I didn't think that I would like the MOE handguards, until I got to try some out... They are such a drastic improvement (at least for me) as I can actually get a good comfortable grip on the handguard with them.
It's threads like this that have helped me to avoid wasting money over the years on a variety of accessories. Still, some things you just need to try out for yourself to see if it works for you or not. Here's my short b^tch list,
A2 stock and grip: the stock is long and heavy and there are many better options available. If you need to shove cleaning rods into your stock, then more power to you. The A2 grip feels like you're running an old Electrolux vacuum cleaner.
AFG - It took one carbine class to realize that a) the AFG gives me a lousy reference point when transitioning the rifle between shoulders and b) it isn't natural to hold your support arm out straight all day.
Primary Arms micro "QD" mount - It isn't really QD and you will need to use some kind of thread locker to hold the mount in place.
Magpul ASAP - The install is a real PITA and it seems that most guys will cut off the link as soon as they get it. The Noveske QD end plate is a much better choice.
Magpul MS2 sling - Love the 1pt/2 pt functionality, but hate the hardware. That little latch clasp is terrible.
I've tried just about all of the Magpul Dynamics Theory Based Products, and haven't kept a single one on my rifle. I found the MS2 sling difficult to adjust and the ASAP didn't do anything better than a centrally mounted QD point. I tried the AFG and shortly went back to the VFG...from what I can tell only about 10% of AFGs in the wild are actually mounted properly and I cringe every time I see a AFG mounted close to the magwell. And the BAD caused more problems than it solved.
Magpul's PMAGs, grips and stocks are their best products.
EzGoingKev
08-21-11, 10:10
Magpul's PMAGs, grips and stocks are their best products.
Personally, I think their followers are their best product, especially from someone living in a ban state.
#1-I always hate to see the cheapo Parts with the tag line "Used By the Elite US Military units"
#2-Just can't get into the full rail set up I don't like the way it feels and about the only thing I would mount is a Light for My needs
#3- HK AR Mags and the hype behind them.
EzGoingKev
08-21-11, 10:36
I forgot the serious "talk me into/out of buying" posts.
If you are that ****ing weak minded that you need a hive to make decisions for you then you shouldn't be allowed to own firearms.
Another one is the products that are "solutions looking for a problem" until someone everyone hero worships uses/makes/sells one. Then they become the must have.
And ANY THING pre-ban that is being sold for 6x what it is really worth.
I forgot the serious "talk me into/out of buying" posts.
If you are that ****ing weak minded that you need a hive to make decisions for you then you shouldn't be allowed to own firearms.
Another one is the products that are "solutions looking for a problem" until someone everyone hero worships uses/makes/sells one. Then they become the must have.
And ANY THING pre-ban that is being sold for 6x what it is really worth.
AMEN !!!!!:D
SeriousBRD
08-21-11, 11:25
I don't get the long ass rails with nothing on them. If you actually use the rail space great but if you just have a 12" rail with nothing on it cause you think it looks cool, WTF!
The "you need to hit the gym" attitude if you think your rifle is too heavy. I guess I'm not scared to wear a pink shirt. I love my pencil barrel rifles. It's about balance and being able to add the accessories I like (VFG, RDS, light) without ending up with a 12 pound rifle.
Pencil barrels: what was a good idea for women turned into the equivalent of "real men wear pink"bandwagon.
Unless you were just trying to be funny that is a pretty ignorant post.
I'd love to hear what you think about the M4 and A2 profiles and maybe the M14, FAL, AK, etc...
HK mags that wasted a lot of my units funds.
enough said.
KAC Handstops that have QD swivels. I have never seen one in real life but I can't wrap my head around that.
I had a VFG on my gun for a while. After shooting at a few competitions I realized that I have no reason, other than to look tacticool, to use one. It slowed me down, messed up my natural shooting grip/posture, and got in the way all of the time.
I shoot better and faster without a VFG.
edit: I didn't realize this was a generalized stupid add-on thread. My post is something I *personally* have grown to hate.
- Cheap optics
- Cheap railed fore ends
- Cheap lights
Basically cheap, made-in-who-knows-where accessories of all kinds.
Doc Safari
08-21-11, 16:09
It's threads like this that have helped me to avoid wasting money over the years on a variety of accessories.
Amen, Brother, and that's why I started this thread. I like the "why" responses the best, like "I can't stand the AFG because I can't really move my wrist that way", or "I hate such-and-such because I broke two of them really easily."
Still, some things you just need to try out for yourself to see if it works for you or not.
Unfortunately, I had to find out the hard way that the single-point sling isn't for me. They don't call it the "nut slapper" for nothing.
HK mags that wasted a lot of my units funds.
enough said.
I got rid of all my failing HK mags years ago and forgot to even add them. They certainly should have been.
Well this thread didn't stay closed for long. I guess since it's gone in the direction I hoped it wouldn't I might as well join in...
Ok. People that write for gun magazines is another thing I've discarded. People that post they are making the wonderful transition from equipment B back to original equipment A are some others.
One of my biggest disappointments was a combination. First off individuals here that make a series of posts here about how fantastic an RDS is on a handgun and how much it's improved their accuracy. So after following said threads for months I take the plunge only to discover how freaking slow it is to locate and fire the gun with the thing on there. THEN...THEN...The same person comments in a post about how it is somewhat slower to acquire the dot when bringing the pistol up for use. Really? You really couldn't have commented on that one major negative during all the praise that was being spilled on this system?
Arrrrrrgh!
Failure2Stop
08-21-11, 16:20
A lot of dead VC/NVA would beg to differ
I want to know who all these people are that are arguing with dead VC and Muj? Last I checked, they stopped talking once we killed them.
Lets stop telling each other what our dead enemies think about the issue.
You realize there may be a purpose to doing that right?[having it attached to gear etc..] As well as making sure it works, making sure its attached to you when you need it may be helpful as well.
And a pouch doesn't always ensure that.
The problem is that most of the time, when a catastrophic event occurs that requires immediate access to a TQ, it usually blows the ones not securely inside a tough pouch about 30 yards away and in several pieces.
Inside pouches and pockets and toward the top of the shoulders close to the body are the safest places to have loose items such as TQs.
I know this from several deployments that involved getting blown up with IEDs and trading bullets with an actual enemy force.
When Poster A states that he tried something and had good results. Now poster B, C, D, all the way through Z come along and announce they just ordered one and Poster A has to tell each and every single one of them they won't be disappointed.
The BS announcement threads like "Making the switch back to 9mm". Good for you, I am surprised CNN didn't pick it up.
The BS this vs that threads like .45 vs 9mm, 1911 vs Glock, Revolver vs Auto shit that has been gone over ad nauseaum every where on the fricking globe.
The "solution looking for a problem" post guys that feel the need to post that everywhere. While it is true in some situations, a lot of times they just come off as a "post with atitude looking for a thread".
I appreciate your disdain for types of posts, but this already tenuous thread is about GEAR, specifically, "Add-on accessories you have come to hate". Lets keep it on topic.
JoshuaJJackson
08-21-11, 16:45
The problem is that most of the time, when a catastrophic event occurs that requires immediate access to a TQ, it usually blows the ones not securely inside a tough pouch about 30 yards away and in several pieces.
Inside pouches and pockets and toward the top of the shoulders close to the body are the safest places to have loose items such as TQs.
I know this from several deployments that involved getting blown up with IEDs and trading bullets with an actual enemy force.
That is what I was getting at ;) Placement is a massive issue for that as well. In my experience you can plan on anything from waist down to be gone if your talking about IEDs at least.
I want to know who all these people are that are arguing with dead VC and Muj? Last I checked, they stopped talking once we killed them.
Lets stop telling each other what our dead enemies think about the issue.
Just trying to use a colloquialism to combat a seemingly ignorant post.
theblackknight
08-21-11, 18:01
Unless you were just trying to be funny that is a pretty ignorant post.
I'd love to hear what you think about the M4 and A2 profiles and maybe the M14, FAL, AK, etc...
"hmm, poster says something that dosent agree with what I use, he must be ignorant"
Originally Posted by JoshuaJJackson
You realize there may be a purpose to doing that right?[having it attached to gear etc..] As well as making sure it works, making sure its attached to you when you need it may be helpful as well.
And a pouch doesn't always ensure that.
Well yeah, that purpose of having it attached is to use it when you need it. The question of where is the issue.
chamber143
08-21-11, 18:24
I didn't think that I would like the MOE handguards, until I got to try some out... They are such a drastic improvement (at least for me) as I can actually get a good comfortable grip on the handguard with them.
I agree. I never could get a good grip on the standard grips. I find the (midlength atleast) shape of them fits me great and is much more natural. But i am finding that i hate the add on rails. I am really thinking about ditching them for the dd omega rails.
As a LT dealer, we see almost NO interest in their rails any more. For whatever reason, they have fallen out of favor. The hot rails now are Troy TRX/VTAC and the DD Lite Rail.
C4
I think the reason is because people want a continuous rail now.
"hmm, poster says something that dosent agree with what I use, he must be ignorant"
Wrong.
I don't run a pencil barrel and I said what I said because your post sounded ignorant on the subject.
Ignorant is not meant as an insult. "Ignorant: Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular."
Your dislike for lightweight barrels without including the GOV profile shows you do not know much about barrel contours. The GOV profile is basically pencil under the handguards, where it matters.
You also seem to think the M16 was designed for women. It wasn't. The M16 uses a barrel profile simmilar to the original AR-10, M14, and FAL, a few other rifles also not designed for women.
theblackknight
08-21-11, 20:23
No, you took it wrong.
The women comment was directed at the fact that it seemed like everyone who was building a rifle for their wife was going with the smaller stick, then after they got done "testing" it for her, were like "i NEED THIS" then got soo psyched, they were like "YOU NEED THIS", and now all the pencil barrel believers remind me of the cultfit/militant paleo crowd. If you poke a bit of fun, they attack. Small barrels are probably awesome, but it's still a bandwagon.
No, you took it wrong.
The women comment was directed at the fact that it seemed like everyone who was building a rifle for their wife was going with the smaller stick, then after they got done "testing" it for her, were like "i NEED THIS" then got soo psyched, they were like "YOU NEED THIS", and now all the pencil barrel believers remind me of the cultfit/militant paleo crowd. If you poke a bit of fun, they attack. Small barrels are probably awesome, but it's still a bandwagon.
He may have taken it wrong, but you're looking at it wrong, and you just did in your post exactly what you (wrongly) accused him of doing in his.
theblackknight
08-21-11, 20:43
how is that? i dont get it.
I should have never came out of the training/comp forums
BTW dose anyone have the NSNs for skin,thick, in various colors?
i guess i missed the memo where my DD V5 LW is now a paperweight because of the barrel...:rolleyes:
i personally like the pencil barrel, its not the only option, and not the only rifle in the safe, but it is my favorite to shoot.
i guess i missed the memo where my DD V5 LW is now a paperweight because of the barrel...:rolleyes:
i personally like the pencil barrel, its not the only option, and not the only rifle in the safe, but it is my favorite to shoot.
Well shit...time to throw away my 5.56 PredatAR
SWATcop556
08-21-11, 21:34
Well shit...time to throw away my 5.56 PredatAR
Nope. Just send it to me. :dirol:
My pet peeves are crappy stuff of any type (EOTechs, UTG, NC Star, DPMS, whatever) passed off as 'mil-spec', and muzzle brakes that aren't either on a competition gun or used as a sacrificial suppressor baffle. The latter irks me far more than the former, as the former only annoys the people ignorant enough to run them. People with braked SBRs next to me on the firing line is just teeth-grindingly annoying.
Nope. Just send it to me. :dirol:
Sure...HEY!!! Quit it with the jedi shit, those WERE the droids I was looking for...
SWATcop556
08-21-11, 21:49
Sure...HEY!!! Quit it with the jedi shit, those WERE the droids I was looking for...
Worth a try. :jester:
Hey, sent you a PM.
Sure...HEY!!! Quit it with the jedi shit, those WERE the droids I was looking for...
:lol::lol::lol:
My pet peeves are crappy stuff of any type (EOTechs, UTG, NC Star, DPMS, whatever).
I understand some people may not prefer EOTECHs for whatever reason, but they are issued equipment to many SOF units and have undergone enough testing (SOCOM Block 2 for example) and combat (OEF, OIF) to prove themselves. They definitely do not fall into the same category as NC Star or BSA or anything like that.
I myself like the 65 MOA reticle and the 1 MOA dot that a EOTECH offers over an CCO/Aimpoint (and I have used both, and yes I know you can turn the brightness setting down on the CCO and get a similar effect).
Also, unfortunately for us people living in Ban States unless your a law enforcement officer or have a preban lower a muzzle brake is it, no flash hiders.
This is a great thread though.
I understand some people may not prefer EOTECHs for whatever reason, but they are issued equipment to many SOF units and have undergone enough testing (SOCOM Block 2 for example) and combat (OEF, OIF) to prove themselves. They definitely do not fall into the same category as NC Star or BSA or anything like that.
I myself like the 65 MOA reticle and the 1 MOA dot that a EOTECH offers over an CCO/Aimpoint (and I have used both, and yes I know you can turn the brightness setting down on the CCO and get a similar effect).
Also, unfortunately for us people living in Ban States unless your a law enforcement officer or have a preban lower a muzzle brake is it, no flash hiders.
This is a great thread though.
And I've seen many of them shit the bed in fairly low round counts, sometimes after repeated trips back to the factory. I think the concept is neat, but the reliability just isn't anywhere close to the modern Aimpoints.
As for people living in ban states, that is one of those exceptions. I feel sorry for you all.
Thats fair enough, but I've also seen many go through year long deployments to include firefights and all the training/shooting/test firing you do on deployments without a hitch. No doubt modern day Aimpoints such as the T-1 are great, BUT... EoTechs are in the same league as them, not NC Star or BSA.
Sorry if this is off topic, don't want to get into a EoTech vs Aimpoint discussion.
what i hate:
9455
buy a $2000 plus rifle, put a 150 strikefire on it :suicide::rolleyes:
i like the vest with nothing attached except a marker...:rolleyes:
And no eye-pro.
i think he is using mall ninja focus to block the dangerous debris.:D
And no eye-pro.
Up until sometime after OIF 1 I never wore eye pro at the range, wasnt issued or required. Growing up shooting in the 80's and 90's the only eye pro I used was the bill of my hat to block the sun. Not worthy of a gig to me, but the kid has plenty of other WTF's going on in that pic.
If you poke a bit of fun...
I'm pretty sure I said your post was funny OR ignorant. If you had admitted it was for fun or made it a bit more clear in you first post I wouldn't have wasted my time correcting the technical and historical details.
Back on point, I have come to dislike grips that move you hand away from the selector on a fighting carbine. I dislike shifting my grip to get the selector back to safe more than I need benchrest trigger finger placement.
This
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2LLPB2-1.html
I actually like the AFG. I had a shattered wrist and the AFG makes my wrist hurt way less at the end of a day.
BAD is a POS.
Any of the cheap crap Chinlee products.
Wouldn't buy a LaRue product unless nobody else makes an alternative.
I have to agree. I have since switched to American Defense.
My only gripe with ARs is when they start to weigh 12lbs and folks call them uber tactical... anyone who has carried an weapon for any serious length of time would know to value a light weight carbine.
:blink:
[/B]
There is a fix for that.
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/qd-rotation-limited-buttstock-sling-mount-n-slot/
Haven't used it personally.
Only problem is that it costs $30 and you're now only $10 less than a CTR.
Magic_Salad0892
08-22-11, 03:16
SlideFire stock.
Lightning Ring (or whatever)
Compensators on unsuppressed guns
Fake Suppressors
Barrel mounted sling swivels
37mm flare launchers
Crimson Trace/LaserMax VFG.
I don't like LaRue rails because of price, look, the owner's attitude, and the fact that there are MUCH better rails on the market.
Dirtyboy333
08-22-11, 04:02
When you guys say you dont like comps on unsurpressed guns are you talking about Battlecomps, FSC556 etc.??? Those were the rave around here a few months ago......
The ghey ones that don't work would be my guess. The Battle Comp works very well all the way around.
When you guys say you dont like comps on unsurpressed guns are you talking about Battlecomps, FSC556 etc.??? Those were the rave around here a few months ago......
The_War_Wagon
08-22-11, 06:48
Rail covers.
Props to everyone who mentioned Barska/Leapers/UTG/BSA/Sightmark/CAA/et.al crap - there's nothing worse than beating your ahead against a computer screen, explaining to someone why blowing $79.95, only puts you $79.95 further behind on getting REAL gear. :rolleyes:
For me personally, it's gotta be the rail covers. EVERY set I've ever seen/tried, makes the fore end overly bulky; thank goodness for Magpul ladders. Takes the edge off the bare rails, and adds no further bulk! https://www.m4carbine.net/images/icons/icon14.gif
For me personally, it's gotta be the rail covers. EVERY set I've ever seen/tried, makes the fore end overly bulky
Said the man who never could palm a basketball let alone a frisbee :)
One tweak I have is more relevant to ban states than the rest of you free folk.
You get to the range and there's almost always that one person with all the coolest gizmonics and latest greatest on his brand new uber dollar whatever it is.....
.... with nothing but two neutered 10 round, or less, magazines to feed it because all the money went into making some supercool bleding edge uber killing machine, but god forbid they drop a few dollars on at the very least a decent 7-8 count bundle of pre-ban normal capacity mags.
Then they self reconcile it by saying 'the rifle came with two magazines. Why would you ever need more? I'm such a good shot I'll never need more than 20 rounds anyway'
Only problem is that it costs $30 and you're now only $10 less than a CTR.
I didn't say it was cost effective?
Only pointing out that it was available, if it helps?
Eurodriver
08-22-11, 08:10
Sure its been mentioned, but AFGs.
I'm just glad that is one of those products I can finally say "I told you so" to all those people who bought them and now don't use them.
Straight Shooter
08-22-11, 08:25
I FREELY admit to being ignorant, hence the following question.
I see a few of you list one of your hates as "anything mounted at 6:00". Im wondering why is this? Im no operator, just wanting to figure out the reasons you guys who are operators dont like it. I am considering purchasing the Elzetta mount for my LMT, any thoughts/comments on this?
Also, I would like to know what you pro's like/use/carry recommend in the way of light mounts and two point slings.
Thanks for any answers.
This
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2LLPB2-1.html
My God.
I FREELY admit to being ignorant, hence the following question.
I see a few of you list one of your hates as "anything mounted at 6:00". Im wondering why is this? Im no operator, just wanting to figure out the reasons you guys who are operators dont like it. I am considering purchasing the Elzetta mount for my LMT, any thoughts/comments on this?
Also, I would like to know what you pro's like/use/carry recommend in the way of light mounts and two point slings.
Thanks for any answers.
You run into a problem when shooting over barricades (where you would need your light to ID the threat). This over exposes yourself. Depending on the light model, the barrel can block a lot of the light.
Commonly, the best position is 12 followed closely by 11 and 1. Next up is 3 and 9 with the 6 position being the least desirable.
YMMV.
C4
Selector blocks piss me off.
Straight Shooter
08-22-11, 08:44
Mr. Grant..
Thats a meat and taters answer, sir. Thank you!
Tritium BUIS
I don't hate them, but for me it was a waste of the extra $100. The Troy BUIS's don't put out much light. I guess they would work well if I were wearing cheap night vision, but I have an EOTech that I could use that has 10 NV settings. Really, unless I was in a war zone, or shooting coyotes at night, I don't see the point.
I have also come to dislike single point slings as well.
Paying the extra $40. The CTR is well made, but the MOE is a much better value.
C4
the only thing that approaches making the CTR worth $40 more than the MOE is the QD socket. it allows you to do something with the CTR that the MOE does not. this is not saying you can't just loop the sling through the stock but the CTR gives you the option of both.
again, this does not justify the cost in some people's minds, it is just a fundamental difference and if it is a limiting factor, the CTR is the only way to do it. I purchased my CTRs before the existence of the MOE and if I had to do it over, I would get the MOE...
Call me silly but if you are running a AFG on you Carbine length rail isn't your hand in the exact same spot it would be if you had a VFR on there? At the very end of the rail?:confused:
your hand would be but the angle of your wrist/forearm is counter to the theory. the AFG only works for me near the end of a 12" rail. I don't even use one on my 9"...
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