New Federal Cartridge shotgun loads for LE [Archive]

DocGKR

08-19-11, 15:34

Given Brenneke USA's recent QC issues and the unfortunate unavailability of true Rotweil Brennke loads in the U.S. currently, we have been looking for alternative slug loads that are capable of adequate penetration after first defeating intermediate barriers. We shot the new Federal (PB127 DPRS) Truball Deep Penetrator 1 oz slug load @ 1350 fps (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/slug.aspx?id=902). It penetrated 24" of gel after first defeating an automobile windshield, with no deviation from trajectory and outstanding weight retention. The Federal Truball Deep Penetrator works as a potential Brenneke replacement. As a bonus, it is very accurate out to at least 100 yards.

-----------------------------

Based on IWBA data, Don Hacklander from San Diego Police Supply and I have been discussing the potential of a properly designed #1 buckshot LE load for many years--with Don's help and the efforts of some folks at ATK, this has now finally been brought to fruition!

We shot the new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) yesterday out of a generic 18" 870P, including patterning from 5-35 yards, as well as a bare gel shot at 7 yards. In bare gel, all 15 of the 30 caliber plated pellets penetrated in the 14-18 inch range.

This new Federal LE132-1B #1 buckshot load offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes.

Below are a couple photos of patterning shots at 7 and 25 yards:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/181935989271.jpg

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1819351045454.jpg

PA PATRIOT

08-19-11, 18:11

Based on IWBA data, Don Hacklander from San Diego Police Supply and I have been discussing the potential of a properly designed #1 buckshot LE load for many years--with Don's help and the efforts of some folks at ATK, this has now finally been brought to fruition!

Congratulations!

DocH

08-19-11, 21:14

Very nice Doc.Thanks for your persistence and work in bringing about this new #1 buck load.:)
Good to know about the slugs,too.

Shawn Dodson

08-20-11, 11:26

You done good! Did you have to smack anyone at Federal between the eyes with a 2x4 to get them to understand?

It's disturbing that it took 15 years after Gus Cotey proved the superiority of #1 buckshot.

Why did it take so long? When I spoke to Federal (about 15 years ago - after Cotey's article was published in WBR) they were more concerned about a market for a #1 buckshot LE/defense load (will it sell?) than in offering a superior terminal ballistics capability.

Well done to both of you, Doc and Mr. Hacklander!!!

Beat Trash

08-20-11, 14:37

That 25 yd pattern looks amazing, and that 7 yd pattern almost looks like a slug!

I'll definitely be looking into this.

Thanks to both you and Don for the persistence on getting this pushed through.

SGB

08-20-11, 16:04

Very promising

sgtjosh

08-20-11, 17:28

That 25 yard pattern is pretty damn impressive. It made me think about taking a 12ga on shift instead of my M4...but only for a second.

tpd223

08-20-11, 17:41

Excellent news. Those appear to be exactly what guys who carry the shotgun have needed for years.

strambo

08-21-11, 11:10

Nice, I dig #1 buck for HD already, but loved that Hornady LR TAP 00 patterned like that 25yd photo in my 870 (at 25 yds). Looks like I can have the best of both worlds now!

15 separate .30 cal 14-18" wound channels is about as good as it gets for terminal performance.

KhanRad

08-22-11, 11:27

That's just sexy. I'll have to get me some of those for patrol use.

GIJew766

08-22-11, 12:05

Definately going to grab some of this for my pump guns.

H

chapperjoe

08-22-11, 12:35

link to purchase site?

Old_Painless

08-22-11, 13:47

That's outstanding.

I had been bugging ADK the last couple of years at the SHOT Show about these loads, and was told they were on the way. Glad that they finally did it. :)

Plan

08-23-11, 09:28

Thanks for the info... These loads could be a great resource for officers in departments (such as mine) that do not currently field a patrol rifle program.

Glock17JHP

08-23-11, 13:32

I'm assuming the load has hardened shot, yes?

Can you tell us the pattern sizes at 7 and 25 yards?

Glock17JHP

08-23-11, 18:30

How many pellets per tier? I seem to recall 16 and 20 pellet versions in the past... 4 pellets per tier...

I would like to see them offer a slightly lower pellet-count version for lower recoil.

Is this load available yet, or still in the R&D phase? If not yet available, any idea of an estimated date?

I would assume it will be hard for civilians to get initially...

DocGKR

08-24-11, 20:23

That nice little A-Zone circle in the middle of the target is 6" in diameter...

Rgrassi

08-24-11, 20:35

The #1 Buck Tac load looks impressive. The TruBall is of interest as well. I even like the target!

It's about time we got a modern 1B load. I'm glad it's available.

tpd223

08-24-11, 22:52

One of the things I like about loads like this is that the tight pattern combined with the high pellet count means you can hit low probability fleeting targets more easily, and wreck them when you do.

You don't always get "center mass" available in a fight, so you shoot what you got until something better shows up, then shoot some more if need be.

Think about those patterns being aimed at a bad guy's foot/elbow/hand/knee/shoulder because that is what you have available sticking out from around cover.

snakyjake

08-25-11, 11:10

How does this load compare to the ever popular 00 buckshot loads for self/home defense?

DocGKR

08-25-11, 11:34

As noted in the first post of this thread:

"This new Federal LE132-1B #1 buckshot load offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes."

Wiggity

08-25-11, 11:37

How does this load compare to the ever popular 00 buckshot loads for self/home defense?

Id imagine they are fairly similar but with bigger pellets than the 00. But both will probably put a man in him ass in no time

Glock17JHP

08-25-11, 13:08

I was wondering the same thing...

For example, it would be nice to know 'recoil' values for this new load as compared to others, like LE132-00. It would seem obvious that recoil will be somewhat greater, but knowing how much greater would be something I would like to know.

What formula is used to calculate recoil?

Glock17JHP

08-25-11, 13:10

Id imagine they are fairly similar but with bigger pellets than the 00. But both will probably put a man in him ass in no time

Smaller pellets... 00 Buck is .33", #1 Buck is .30"

Old_Painless

08-25-11, 15:02

How does this load compare to the ever popular 00 buckshot loads for self/home defense?

The advantage is that although the #1 pellets are smaller, there are more of them and the total frontal area is greater. From another site:

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma."

snakyjake

08-25-11, 15:16

30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

I'm sold! Thanks for the info.

Glock17JHP

08-25-11, 20:03

Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma."

There's no free lunch, folks... the recoil is also higher, maybe even close to the same 30 percent that the effective wound trauma is higher...

That is why I would like to see an additional lighter load developed with 12 pellets...

DocGKR

08-25-11, 21:10

The new #1 load shot fine, on par recoil wise with the current LE132-00 load--I absolutely would NOT want a #1 buckshot load with only 12 pellets, as that kind of defeats the whole purpose...

Glock17JHP

08-25-11, 22:11

PA PATRIOT

08-25-11, 23:53

Fair enough... although I must admit that I find that surprising since the payload would be heavier and the velocity is probably similar between LE132-00 and LE132-1B.

I personally found there to be a noticeable recoil difference comparing 2 3/4 Magnum non-LE loads that were 12-pellet 00 Buck and 20-pellet #1 Buck... which would seem to be comparable to the comparison of the 9-pellet 00 Buck LE132-00 and the 15 pellet #1 Buck LE132-1B.

I would still like to know the actual recoil numbers, but I will drop it...

On a non duty home S/D shotgun just have a high quality recoil pad installed and forget about if one load has 2 or 4 foot pounds more of recoil then another, unless your using the gun for competition and firing thousands of rounds a year then I can see wanting to reduce the pounding your shoulder takes.

Glock17JHP

08-26-11, 13:25

I was not considering switching to this load (LE132-1B), to be honest. I tried LE132-00 a while back, but I still like the load I already have (Winchester Ranger RA1200). Although I am sure some folks would feel differently, I don't prefer a super-tight grouping of buckshot for a HD shotgun with only a front sight. I do, however think it is a wonderful development for LE, whose likely scenarios and weaponry are much different than mine.

FWIW, I do have a nice recoil pad/stock set-up (Hogue 12" LOP), but I like minimal recoil just the same. My questions are only questions to learn more about this new load.

DocGKR

08-26-11, 15:47

Glock17JHP

08-26-11, 18:43

How is your 870 outfitted (anything that is not stock)? Do you have rifle-style sights, for example?

I ask because I only have a factory bead front sight, with a 'Tru-Glo' snap-on green fiber optic front sight installed over it. The patterns that the 'FlightControl' loads throw in my shotgun are smaller 'to my view' than my muzzle diameter at 10 yards... that is why I prefer the larger patterns thrown by the Ranger loads (close to 2X the size of the Federal loads).

My preference only... just sayin'...

Glock17JHP

08-26-11, 18:46

BTW, I am corrosponding with Steve at Federal (to learn more)... and am suggesting to Paul at Winchester that they produce a Ranger version of this same load...

Altair

08-27-11, 13:28

I am also interested in where this can be purchased. I would like some for myself.

Now the battle to get it purchased by my department for duty use begins...

PA PATRIOT

08-27-11, 17:03

I have always been a #1 Buck fan for serious use and can't wait to see how this new load will pattern in my guns.

Any estimate when these may come available?

Old_Painless

08-27-11, 18:37

I have always been a #1 Buck fan for serious use and can't wait to see how this new load will pattern in my guns.

Any estimate when these may come available?

I spoke with my contact at ATK. He advises that they are "in production", but not yet available for sale.

Should be soon. :)

Altair

08-28-11, 00:35

Are these full power loads that will cycle semi-autos or reduced recoil loads that have to be used in pump guns?

DocGKR

08-28-11, 00:47

We just have 870's issued around here, so I cannot comment on semi-auto function.

Gamma68

08-28-11, 03:50

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1819351045454.jpg
:dance3:

Oh.
Yeah.

Altair

08-28-11, 14:07

We just have 870's issued around here, so I cannot comment on semi-auto function.

I know Federal offers 3 versions of the 00 Buck. The 8 pellet (LE133 00) and one of the 9 pellet (LE132 00) loads are reduced recoil and won't reliably cycle my 11-87P while the full power 9 pellet (LE127 00) works fine. Both of the low recoil loads have a velocity of 1145fps while the full power load is 1325fps.

I noticed that the load you tested was 15 pellet and if I remember right most loads are 16 pellet so I didn't know if it was, possibly, a reduced recoil personal defense load. Do you know if they have plans to release different versions like they did with the 00 loads?

ETA: Since the MV of the tested #1 load is only 1100fps that seems to indicate a reduced recoil load. Also, LE132 00 is a reduced recoil load and the part number for this load is LE132 1B which would suggest it is a reduced load (assuming Federal is consistent with their part numbers).

BuckskinJoe

08-29-11, 07:31

If I have to use a shotgun, the 870 is going to be loaded with old Rottweil Brenneke 1 oz slugs or the Federal Truball Deep Penetrator 1 oz slugs (PB127 DPRS) when I am outdoors, especially in wilderness areas with large dangerous predators; indoors and for shooting threatening dogs, cougars, coyotes, etc... I'll be using the new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B).
for Doc:

Perhaps, some answers to my questions are imbedded in the above, however...

It appears you believe the right slug is the superior choice for LE work and the new LE132-1B (15 pellet #1 Buck) best for other applications, including indoors (which, I assume, includes a home defense shotgun.) If my take is off base, please correct me.

Given that #1 Buck is the optimum choice, I am hoping you can clear up my questions:

Why not the 24 pellet load (3" mag) if only 12 (vs. 15) would defeat the purpose?

I am also curious about the close-range pattern that looks a lot the hole a slug would make. Is there not an advantage to having, say, a 6 to 8 inch pattern at close ranges, such as indoors?

DocH

08-29-11, 08:04

Are these full power loads that will cycle semi-autos or reduced recoil loads that have to be used in pump guns? I don't know what auto you have and it can probably make a difference,but just FYI the Fed LE132 00B functions fine in my 930 SPX as well as the Ranger low recoil loads.
This shotgun has a lot of rounds through it,tho. I would suspect the new #1 buck load would be the same.Hope so,anyway.

chapperjoe

08-29-11, 09:55

where is everyone procuring these rounds from?

Old_Painless

08-29-11, 10:44

I am also curious about the close-range pattern that looks a lot the hole a slug would make. Is there not an advantage to having, say, a 6 to 8 inch pattern at close ranges, such as indoors?

There is no advantage in more "spread" in a buckshot load. At in-home distances the pattern will be very small with any load. The Flight Control Load will have an even tighter pattern.

It is a definite advantage to have a wider pattern when hunting and wing-shooting birds with birdshot. But when used for home defense, we do not want any projectiles to miss the target, and this requires tight patterns. Buckshot does not "act like one slug". Therefore, even if the pattern is tight, the individual buckshot will each create its own wound channel when it impacts the target.

For more information, see here: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176

Glock17JHP

08-29-11, 13:14

I spoke with my contact at ATK. He advises that they are "in production", but not yet available for sale.

Should be soon. :)

I conversed via email with a gentleman who is from Federal who told me he was there at the testing Doc was involved in. He told me they are still doing testing, and that there is no definite date yet. He told me they are looking at the possibility of other loads besides this 15-pellet version, but could not elaborate further.

DocGKR

08-31-11, 18:26

We did some additional testing with the new Federal LE132-1B #1 buckshot load. The load chronographed with a MV of 1095 fps from an 18" 870.

Through an automobile windshield at 3 meters, 2 badly deformed pellets were noted at 5", 3 pellets were at 8-9", while the remaining 10 pellets were found at 12.5-15"--not bad for buckshot load. Keep in mind that slugs are the preferred option when engaging threats inside vehicles.

In bare gel when shot from 3 meters, we again saw penetration of all the pellets from 14-18", as noted in the photo below:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7653&filename=Fed%20#1%20buckshot%20BG.jpg

Beat Trash

09-01-11, 12:22

I still keep an 870 loaded in the safe, although it sits behind a loaded AR carbine.

I'll be loading it with this #1 buck loading when it becomes available. In addition, I have many friends and relatives who rely on a 12 ga as their only defensive long gun. I'll be strongly suggesting they acquire this load.

When I look at the 7yd and 25yd patters, then look at the gel penetration, my first thought is, "Damn"!

highxj

09-03-11, 13:22

I just purchased some of these slug loads...same item number. The boxes show the velocity as 1600 fps. I wonder which speed is correct, that's quite a difference. I may have to run a few over the chrono.

highxj

09-03-11, 15:08

My apologies for cluttering up Doc's thread, but I did chrono the mentioned Federal slug load through a 14" Benelli M2. As I mentioned in the previous post, my boxes list the velocity as 1600 fps. The actual speed out of the short Benelli averaged 1376 fps. Both my 14" 870 and 590A1 fell within 15 fps of this figure.

I also ran the Brenneke 2 3/4 Black Magic slug for comparison, and it was nearly identical in velocity out of the 14" guns.

I don't know what these loads would run out of an 18 1/2" bbl, but I doubt they would gain much more than 100 fps over the 14"..certainly not 200 fps they would need to meet advertised velocity. Anybody know for sure?

Nephrology

09-03-11, 17:43

thank you for helping to develop this new load for us Doc. It is great that you are able to apply the results of your research instead of just sharing it.

I have one side question (and I do hope that it does not de-rail the thread) - do you believe that the terminal ballistics of buckshot are improvement enough over handgun JHPs to make it worth serious consideration for civilians in a home defense role? Or do you believe that the maneuverability of the handgun is a greater advantage than any improvement in terminal ballistics?

I again apologize if this is a derail but I am eager to hear your .02 USD on the matter.

I still keep an 870 loaded in the safe, although it sits behind a loaded AR carbine.

I'll be loading it with this #1 buck loading when it becomes available. In addition, I have many friends and relatives who rely on a 12 ga as their only defensive long gun. I'll be strongly suggesting they acquire this load.

When I look at the 7yd and 25yd patters, then look at the gel penetration, my first thought is, "Damn"!

I myself do not own a carbine of any kind for largely financial reasons (that, and at this point in my life and nascent career, will potentially be moving to "unfriendly" states where an AR-15 may not beable to come with me.) As a result I am very interested in any information at all about the defensive shotgun. I myself have an 870 Wingmaster that has been a tried and true companion for many years, and was the first gun that I purchased myself.

DocGKR

09-03-11, 20:17

Have you read this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869?

Nephrology

09-03-11, 20:28

Have you read this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869?

Not in some time and it is likely I didn't absorb it 100%. I'll give it another read. Many thanks.

Glock17JHP

09-05-11, 18:38

Altair

09-06-11, 22:44

I have one side question (and I do hope that it does not de-rail the thread) - do you believe that the terminal ballistics of buckshot are improvement enough over handgun JHPs to make it worth serious consideration for civilians in a home defense role? Or do you believe that the maneuverability of the handgun is a greater advantage than any improvement in terminal ballistics?

The short answer:
Yes, without question.

The longer version:
There are several reasons to choose a long gun (rifle or shotgun) over a handgun.

First is that making hits with a long gun under stress is much easier. Even a pistol caliber carbine is superior to a handgun despite having very similar wound ballistics. If you have two shooters of similar skill fire a course and one uses a handgun while the other uses a handgun caliber carbine the carbine shooter will be faster and more accurate.

Second is terminal ballistics. A rifle or shotgun is leaps and bounds ahead of a handgun in terms of terminal performance. Nothing is a magical guarenteed one shot stop weapon but long guns give much better performance

Either reason is good enough to use a long gun for defense and will offset what little advantage the handgun has in terms of manueverability. A suitable long gun for home defense (I prefer SBR's but a 16" AR or 18" shotgun will work just fine) doesn't give up as much as some people think in terms of manueverability if you learn to do it correctly.

If I'm going into a building expecting to encounter an armed subject I will NEVER choose to carry just a handgun. Why would defending your home be any different?

Beat Trash

09-07-11, 10:02

I have one side question (and I do hope that it does not de-rail the thread) - do you believe that the terminal ballistics of buckshot are improvement enough over handgun JHPs to make it worth serious consideration for civilians in a home defense role? Or do you believe that the maneuverability of the handgun is a greater advantage than any improvement in terminal ballistics?

Different tools for different gobs.

I've done many building searches over the last 19 years as an LEO. Short story is that to do it properly, and safely, you will need more than one person.

Do answer that knock at the door at 0'dark thirty, that most likely is not a threat, a pistol has advantages over a long gun. To go grab kids from their beds and bring them into your safe room, you may need to use one hand for the kids. A pistol works better for this.

If you are going to search the house, weapon retention is a huge issue. Think about weapon retention of handgun vs. long gun. Enough said.

Once you get to your safe room (master bedroom with a solid core door, locks and a cell phone that you are calling "911" with), set your handgun aside and grab your carbine/shotgun.

Life is about compromise. Pick the tool that best addresses the needs of the task at hand.

Really short answer, have both a handgun and a long gun available to you.

Old_Painless

09-08-11, 13:18

If you are going to search the house, weapon retention is a huge issue. Think about weapon retention of handgun vs. long gun. Enough said.

Enough said indeed.

With proper training, a long gun is much more difficult to take away from a shooter than a handgun.

"They say you can’t use a rifle or shotgun indoors because a bad guy will grab the barrel. Yeah? Well, he better hang on, ‘cause I’m gonna light him up and it’ll definitely be an "E" ticket ride."- Clint Smith

Altair

09-09-11, 13:29

Enough said indeed.

With proper training, a long gun is much more difficult to take away from a shooter than a handgun.

"They say you can’t use a rifle or shotgun indoors because a bad guy will grab the barrel. Yeah? Well, he better hang on, ‘cause I’m gonna light him up and it’ll definitely be an "E" ticket ride."- Clint Smith

Absolutely. All my defensive long guns have a 3 point sling. It is mandated by department policy but I wouldn't do it differently anyway. It is nearly impossible to take a gun from me or manipulate it to where the barrel can be pointed toward me while using such a sling. While the bad guy tries (to no avail) to wrestle it away he will at the very least be getting face punches with everything I've got while he's essentially defenseless (he has to use both hands to hold the long gun where I can use the sling to keep it secure). If I have something else (gun/knife/ink pen/etc) he's gonna get shot/cut/stabbed instead of punched. Long story short, I'm not to worried about someone trying to take a long gun and them trying actually opens up my force options and puts me in a pretty good position. A handgun is much harder to retain.

The hardest part of weapon retention training with long guns is letting go of the gun to use your hands. It is very counter-intuitive to let go because reflex and handgun retention training tells us to hold on with everything we've got. If you can get past that, the guy trying to take your rifle or shotgun is gonna have a really bad day.

C4IGrant

09-09-11, 13:54

C4IGrant

09-09-11, 13:55

For those interested, we will be stocking this ammo.

If you would like to be notified when it comes in, please send us an e-mail.

C4

neo9710

12-02-11, 23:16

email sent...Any more news?

RMc

01-04-12, 18:35

Smaller pellets... 00 Buck is .33", #1 Buck is .30"

Who would have thought buckshot loads with pellets from .20" (T) to .60" (Tri-Ball) would be on the market in the 2nd decade of the 21st century!

Glock17JHP

01-10-12, 13:31

I conversed via email with a gentleman who is from Federal who told me he was there at the testing Doc was involved in. He told me they are still doing testing, and that there is no definite date yet. He told me they are looking at the possibility of other loads besides this 15-pellet version, but could not elaborate further.

Update...
Senior Rep from Federal LE told me days ago the load is not yet in production.
My IWBA friend/co-author of the original #1 Buck article calculated the new Federal load will have about the same recoil as a 9-pellet 00 Buck load @ 1,325 FPS. This would be about 44% higher recoil than Win Ranger's RA1200 9-pelet load.

DocGKR

01-10-12, 14:57

Final pre-production samples have been produced, so I suspect final production is about ready to begin...

nineteenkilo

01-10-12, 16:34

Final pre-production samples have been produced, so I suspect final production is about ready to begin...

Fantastic news! I'm actually pretty excited about getting my hands on a few when they are available.

RMc

01-10-12, 19:45

Final pre-production samples have been produced, so I suspect final production is about ready to begin...

Do you know if the new Federal #1B pellets will be .30 caliber and 40 grains as #1B is normally listed?

SAMMI buckshot specifications call for + .015" from the nominal diameter. Industry spec. #1B can run from .285" to .315"

Winchester's #1B hunting pellets measure .29"

Glock17JHP

01-11-12, 13:29

streck

01-11-12, 13:51

So this is a 1B offering that is similar to the existing 4B and 0B Flight Control loads?

Generalpie

01-11-12, 14:00

That buckshot load is my new coyote load for after dark calling. I've been wanting something just like that for a long time. Apparently I don't have the pull I wish I did. I just hope it comes before winter is over.

Microalign

01-11-12, 14:19

The Federal LE Sr. Rep told me they want to go to the 'Shot Show' in Las Vegas first to preview the load. He suspected that production could begin after that sometime.

The 'Shot Show' is scheduled for Jan 17-20.

http://www.shotshow.org/Show-Info/

I can't wait to get my hands on this load. Definately something to bring the shotgun back into wider usage over the carbine for closer ranges.

Glock17JHP

01-11-12, 19:16

The Federal LE Tactical Buckshot line involves 4 loads...

LE133-00 8-pellets of 00 Buck @ 1,145 FPS
LE132-00 9-pellets of 00 Buck @ 1,145 FPS
LE127-00 9-pellets of 00 Buck @ 1,325 FPS
LE132-1B 15-pellets of 1 Buck @ 1,100 FPS

The last load is the #1 Buck load we are discussing here...

rsilvers

01-11-12, 23:43

I was aware of the #1 having the most frontal area, and this was all it needed - more penetration.

I guess I have to shoot off all of my existing buckshot and replace it with this.

KCabbage

01-12-12, 09:13

There is no advantage in more "spread" in a buckshot load. At in-home distances the pattern will be very small with any load. The Flight Control Load will have an even tighter pattern.

It is a definite advantage to have a wider pattern when hunting and wing-shooting birds with birdshot. But when used for home defense, we do not want any projectiles to miss the target, and this requires tight patterns. Buckshot does not "act like one slug". Therefore, even if the pattern is tight, the individual buckshot will each create its own wound channel when it impacts the target.

For more information, see here: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176

In a home defense/CQB role, I personally would much rather have a bit of spread to increase my odds of hitting the "off switches" than a shot cup hole that starts spreading after 3"+ of penetration.

Glock17JHP

01-12-12, 20:15

rsilvers,
Having a better load come out doesn't change the quality of what you already have. I would suggest you keep using what you have, and then buy the new load next time you need ammo.

KCabbage,
Old_Painless made a very good point. However, I sort of feel the same way you do. In a HD role (like I would have), and keeping in mind that I don't have rifle-type sights on my shotgun... I like the patterns on the Winchester Ranger buckshot loads. In general, they are about half way between regular buckshot loads and the Federal LE 'FlightControl' buckshot loads. I get a 4" pattern at 30 feet with the Ranger buckshot (RA1200)... for me, that is fine.

That said... I would definitely prefer the Federal loads for LE use, if I were LE...

Glock17JHP

01-12-12, 20:22

I was aware of the #1 having the most frontal area, and this was all it needed - more penetration.

According to one of the authors of the original IWBA/WBR #1 Buck article, it seems that the #1 Buck load being discussed here (Federal LE132-1B) "...crushes 37.5% more tissue and makes 66.67% more holes than a 9-pellet 00B load."

rsilvers

01-15-12, 00:19

According to one of the authors of the original IWBA/WBR #1 Buck article, it seems that the #1 Buck load being discussed here (Federal LE132-1B) "...crushes 37.5% more tissue and makes 66.67% more holes than a 9-pellet 00B load."

Yes. A Clear win. Sad that maybe 1% of shooters will ever know this.

LE127-00 9-pellets of 00 Buck - 0.33 pellets are A = 0.08553 square inches. That is 0.7698 total square inches.

LE132-1B 15-pellets of 1 Buck - 0.30 pellets are 0.07069 square inches. That is 1.0603 total square inches.

I get 37.7% more area for #1 buck and 66.7% more holes vs 00 buck.

RMc

01-15-12, 09:47

Yes. A Clear win. Sad that maybe 1% of shooters will ever know this.

LE127-00 9-pellets of 00 Buck - 0.33 pellets are A = 0.08553 square inches. That is 0.7698 total square inches.

LE132-1B 15-pellets of 1 Buck - 0.30 pellets are 0.07069 square inches. That is 1.0603 total square inches.

I get 37.7% more area for #1 buck and 66.7% more holes vs 00 buck.

Since the use of the Mark V shot collar and the later use of shot cups, actual buckshot sizes have grown smaller. So the use of nominal industry sizes for weight or area would not be accurate.

RMc

01-15-12, 09:54

The development of extremely tight patterning conventional small pellet buckshot (00B, #1B) points to the increasing use of buckshot as a viable harvest tool for deer in the urbanized areas surounding cities.

rsilvers

01-15-12, 10:27

In any case, the goal is to use the largest number of pellets that will still go 12-18 inches deep - and that seems to be 15 of these pellets.

platoonDaddy

01-15-12, 10:36

Dang, 12-18", can't wait to test them.

RMc

01-15-12, 14:11

KCabbage

01-15-12, 20:52

Shoot until the threat stops.

Glock17JHP

01-15-12, 21:44

RMc,
In answer to: "At what distance would penetration with #1B and 00B become insufficient for reliably reaching vital organs?"
Obviously 00 Buck will penetrate deeper than #1 Buck, all else being equal. And since there are numerous 00 Buck and #1 Buck loads, at differing velocities and pellet hardnesses... the variables make it impossible to give a simple but accurate answer.
And, in answer to: "What would the minimum number of centered torso hits in the 10 inch pattern core considered sufficient to render quick incapacitation - again with #1B and 00B?"
The key is specifically what is damaged/penetrated, and how much. Again, the variables are too complex.

platoonDaddy,
12 to 18 inches is the target amount of penetration for a good wounding effect. The #1 Buck load being discussed doesn't likely have that broad of a dispersment.

rsilvers,
You said: "In any case, the goal is to use the largest number of pellets that will still go 12-18 inches deep - and that seems to be 15 of these pellets." The load we are discussing has 15 pellets, but that does not mean that 15 #1 Buck pellets is the best/only load. Remember that #1 Buck is the minimum recommended size, assuming hardened shot... and minimum is not always the best thing in wound ballistics. Maximum pellet count is also not always the best thing... if it was, we could use 3 inch 12 gauge shells and load 18 or even 21 pellets. The results of more pellets is more recoil, all else being equal. Something to think about.

According to the 2 authors of the original IWBA article, one said this about the recoil differences between this new Federal #1 Buck load (LE132-1B) and Winchester Ranger's 9-pellet 00 Buck load (RA1200):

"Win 1145 f/s 9-pellet 00B - 15.3 fp
Standard Vel. 1325 f/s 9-pellet 00B - 20.7 fp
Fed 1100 f/s 15-pellet No. 1B - 22.4 fp"

The other author said:
"i get 13.9 ft-lbs for the 00 load and 20.1 ft-lbs for the #1 load. the small effects mentioned means the values aren't accurate to tenths of a ft-lb, so call it 14 and 20 ft-lbs."

The 1st author said that the new #1 Buck load has more recoil than a standard 9-pellet 00 Buck load... look at what I underlined above.

So... there is an increase in wounding effect with this new load, but at cost of more recoil. Nothing is free. We each need to weigh all of these variables.

RMc

01-15-12, 23:23

At what distance would penetration with #1B and 00B become insufficient for reliably reaching vital organs?

Also:

What would the minimum number of centered torso hits in the 10 inch pattern core considered sufficient to render quick incapacitation - again with #1B and 00B?

In reference to some previous responses, let me clarify the questions:

- If there is a minimum recommended penetration level, then at what distances do hardened pellet LE loads fail to meet the standard?

- What number of pellets, (given sufficient penetration), would the core pattern need to have in order to have a "high probability" of striking sufficient vital areas to effect rapid incapacitation with a centered torso hit?

KCabbage

01-16-12, 09:00

I cannot help you with distance. The more large pellets you can comfortably handle the better.

Glock17JHP

01-16-12, 13:30

In reference to some previous responses, let me clarify the questions:

- If there is a minimum recommended penetration level, then at what distances do hardened pellet LE loads fail to meet the standard?

- What number of pellets, (given sufficient penetration), would the core pattern need to have in order to have a "high probability" of striking sufficient vital areas to effect rapid incapacitation with a centered torso hit?

1) Impact velocity will determine penetration level, and that will differ with pellet sizes.

2) The pattern size/number of pellets would differ from load to load... but ideally you want ALL of the pellets in the payload to be within the vital zone.

Sorry if these answers seem asenine... there are still many variables. Give us a specific load to go by.

RMc

01-16-12, 14:43

1) Impact velocity will determine penetration level, and that will differ with pellet sizes.

2) The pattern size/number of pellets would differ from load to load... but ideally you want ALL of the pellets in the payload to be within the vital zone.

Sorry if these answers seem asenine... there are still many variables. Give us a specific load to go by.

The question revolves around the two sizes under discussion # 1B & 00B. Also the the minimum core pattern for rapid incapacitation is the number of hits - not the number of pellets in the load.

KCabbage

01-16-12, 15:50

Glock17JHP

01-16-12, 18:32

The question revolves around the two sizes under discussion # 1B & 00B. Also the the minimum core pattern for rapid incapacitation is the number of hits - not the number of pellets in the load.

According to 'Bullet Penetration' by Duncan MacPherson...

A .30 caliber hardened lead pellet will penetrate about 16 inches and a .33 caliber hardened lead pellet will penetrate about 18 inches, if impacting ballistic gelatin at about 1000 FPS.

The minimum velocity for a .30 caliber pellet to be able to reach 12 inches is about 725 FPS, and about 640 FPS for a .33 caliber pellet.

Note: All of these numbers would be if there is basically no deformation... sort of like a perfect world. You obviously would have a 'spread' in the actual penetration depth among the pellets in one payload. The numbers above would be what the furthest penetrating pellet(s) in a given payload might achieve.

Does this help a little?

Glock17JHP

01-16-12, 18:34

RMc

01-16-12, 20:52

I feel you are asking something thats not guaranteed.

Penetration - Is this a unobstructed shot? What is the aggressor wearing? Whats being worn could reduce penetration. Maybe he or she is wearing body armor.

Incapacitation - Projectiles miss and even veer off within the body on well aimed shots. You could assume three shots containing forty-five pellets hitting COM would end the confrontation immediately but honestly, in my opinion and probably others as well, its just not guaranteed.

One can indeed posit that nothing is guaranteed and list multiple possibilities to prove the point. However, the entire concept of setting minimum penetration standards in a given test medium is to assert a probable outcome.

Perhaps it would be best to examine this question in terms of the distance at which a particular buckshot pellet size will no longer meet the penetration standard on which this discussion is based.

RMc

01-16-12, 21:30

According to 'Bullet Penetration' by Duncan MacPherson...

A .30 caliber hardened lead pellet will penetrate about 16 inches and a .33 caliber hardened lead pellet will penetrate about 18 inches, if impacting ballistic gelatin at about 1000 FPS.

The minimum velocity for a .30 caliber pellet to be able to reach 12 inches is about 725 FPS, and about 640 FPS for a .33 caliber pellet.

Note: All of these numbers would be if there is basically no deformation... sort of like a perfect world. You obviously would have a 'spread' in the actual penetration depth among the pellets in one payload. The numbers above would be what the furthest penetrating pellet(s) in a given payload might achieve.

Does this help a little?

Indeed it does. Both 00B and 1B move sufficiently fast to exceed the gelatin penetration standard at 40 yards.

tpd223

01-19-12, 08:14

Announced at SHOT;

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Weapons/News/2012/01/18/SHOT-Show-2012-ATK-s-No-1-Buck-Shot-Shells.aspx?ref=BreakingNews-20120118&utm_source=Email&utm_medium=Enewsletter

StrikerFired

01-19-12, 08:33

Will be willing to give them a test, but out of my 870 the Flite Control wad buckshot is tough to beat.

neo9710

01-24-12, 10:21

Hey C4IGrant -

Any news on availability?

DocGKR

01-24-12, 11:40

StrikerFired--This new Fed buckshot load IS a Flite Control load, just using #1 buckshot instead of #00; as a result you get more hits on target, optimal penetration, and more tissue crush--all good things.

tpd223

01-24-12, 12:40

An observation on the range question;

I had a friend who was in a gunfight many years ago. This was in the days of revolvers and no one had a patrol rifle.

He returned fire on a running bad guy who had been actively shooting at him while trying to flee a gun store burglary.

A single OO buck pellet hit the bad guy at a crime scene measured 110 yards, penetrated through his chest lodging on the far side, it cut the aorta on the way through. Death was rather quick.

OO buck can kill people WAY past where the pattern is so spread out that maybe we shouldn't be shooting, at least with buckshot.

I believe that the penetration displayed in this case is about average for a OO buck pellet.

In this case the officer had a large presumably vacant woods behind the bad guy as a backstop.

DocGKR

01-24-12, 13:18

Several years ago an errant buckshot pellet fired by an officer missed a suspect and went downrange over 60 yds to hit and kill an SJPD officer who was in a blocking position...

ST911

01-24-12, 15:20

OO buck can kill people WAY past where the pattern is so spread out that maybe we shouldn't be shooting, at least with buckshot.

During a shotgun range session a few years ago, I set up at 100yds with what I thought was a box of slugs. I fired five and marched back to check my hits. Finding none, I quickly realized what had happened.
Holding down the target stand was an ammo can with several boxes of rounds. Looking at it more closely, I found an entrance hole on one side, and an exit on the other. The stuff in between had obviously been struck too.

While full ammo cans are not people, that single 00B pellet had enough energy to get through the can. I suspect it would have injured a fleshier target quite handily.

Jake'sDad

01-26-12, 00:58

Glock17JHP

01-27-12, 20:14

Shot for shot... this would be the best LE 12 gauge buckshot load...

Good for close-up, and especially for greater distances... if required...

I am convinced...

neo9710

02-23-12, 17:25

Any more news on availability?

ack495

02-25-12, 10:05

I called my LEO ammo hook up place, gt distributors. They had only one case of 250 rounds of LE132-1B on order, which I thought was oddly low. Well, 200 rounds of that case were all ready spoken for when it arrives in stock. So naturally I did the right thing and bought the remaining 50 rounds. The sales rep couldnt tell me when they expect to have it in stock. So I don't expect to see it for a bit. Good find though.

DocGKR

02-26-12, 18:26

San Diego Police Equipment Co. Inc. now has the production Federal #1 buckshot Flight Control load (LE132-1B) in stock for LE agency customers ONLY in CA, OR, WA, AZ, NV: 800-367-8989.

3 AE

03-01-12, 17:01

Just using an online muzzle energy calculator and punching in the various data on the four loads mentioned.
8- #00 x 53.8 grains=430 gr. at 1145 fps=1251 ft. pds
9- #00 x 53.8 grains=484 gr. at 1145 fps=1409 ft. pds
9- #00 x 53.8 grains=484 gr. at 1325 fps=1886 ft. pds.

15- #1 x 40 grains=600 gr. at 1100 fps=1611 ft. pds.
The difference in energy between the #1 buckshot load (1611 ft. pds.)and the 9 pellet #00 buckshot load "Low Recoil"(1409 ft pds.) appears to be about a 14% difference in recoil. That's not that much more recoil to handle for the performance that is gained.

ack495

03-15-12, 09:43

Well my 50 round stash of Federal 132-1b arrived much sooner than expected, which was nice. It doesn't say flight control anywhere on the box like the LR 00 8 pellet buck shot I have, but I assume this is the right stuff.

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i389/ack495/IMAG0224.jpg

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i389/ack495/IMAG0218.jpg

Pic of the test weapon:
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i389/ack495/IMAG0227.jpg

Its a Beretta 1201P, which is recoil operated semi auto, so hopefully this stuff, only rated at 1100FPS, cycles reliably. I haven't had any issues with the LR 00 buck stuff, which at rated at 1145FPS, only 45 FPS more, but we shall see. I might need to buy a pump shotgun sooner rather than later. :D

Going to try to get to the range next week to see how this stuff prints for me.

3 AE

03-29-12, 17:58

Well my 50 round stash of Federal 132-1b arrived much sooner than expected, which was nice. It doesn't say flight control anywhere on the box like the LR 00 8 pellet buck shot I have, but I assume this is the right stuff.

Its a Beretta 1201P, which is recoil operated semi auto, so hopefully this stuff, only rated at 1100FPS, cycles reliably. I haven't had any issues with the LR 00 buck stuff, which at rated at 1145FPS, only 45 FPS more, but we shall see. I might need to buy a pump shotgun sooner rather than later. :D

Going to try to get to the range next week to see how this stuff prints for me.
Any update on how this round performed in your Beretta?

bzdog

04-11-12, 21:07

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=289536#p2489705

ack495

04-11-12, 21:28

Any update on how this round performed in your Beretta?

Shot about 20 rounds. All rounds cycled flawlessly. A bit more felt recoil compared to the low recoil 8 pellet 00 buck but still easy to shoot.

A giant hole at 7 yards. Even at 30+yards all pellets were within a 10"-12" spread. My beretta is my HD weapon. This is my new HD round. No doubt these would be absolutely devastating.

LHS

04-11-12, 22:45

Has this stuff hit civilian markets yet? I did a quick Google search and found nothing.

bzdog

04-11-12, 23:00

look at the link in post 108....

LHS

04-11-12, 23:01

look at the link in post 108....

Ammoman. Got it.

LtDave

04-20-12, 17:54

A shooting buddy and I tested this new 15 pellet #1 buck load today. Outstanding patterns from my cylinder bore Scattergun Technologies 870 and his Vang Comp 870. We patterned both guns at 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 yards. Both guns kept all pellets inside the 8 ring of a Caldwell 12"x18" silhouette target at 30 yards. At 10 yards, both guns kept all pellets inside the 10 ring of the target. At 15 yards patterns were fist sized. At 20 yards, patterns could still be covered with one hand. The 25 yard patterns were inside the 9 ring of the targets. We shot some into water filled jugs and compared the penetration with Federal OO tactical. Penetration was pretty much the same as the OO buck load.

We also shot some Winchester and Remington #1 buck loads at 20 yards. There was no comparison, the Federal load was hands down the best patterning #1 load. I was lucky to keep half the pellets on the target with the Winchester & Remington loads. Both of us are going to make this our go to buckshot load.

Got mine from ammoman.com

Swatdude1

04-20-12, 22:02

Just ordered 250 shells from ammoman as well.

Altair

04-21-12, 19:57

I just ordered a case from ammoman, and now it doesn't show up. I think I got the last one.

Swatdude1

04-21-12, 20:26

Whew! Cut that close. Their site said VERY limited quantities and their claime to fame is if it is on their site, it is in stock. I think as quick as they sold it you might see it for more money next time.

neo9710

04-21-12, 20:40

I ordered a case also...should be here on monday...

Altair

04-21-12, 20:40

WS6

04-27-12, 04:58

I apologize if this is a stupid question, but I would rather ask something stupid than do something stupid.

Can the Federal DPRS slug safely be fired through a FULL choke? I would not put a slug through anything past MOD, but you have to understand, choke-sizes are not by ID, but by AMOUNT of constriction. I want to make sure I'm covered, as I run a Benelli, and they have a smaller ID than most American brands.

Further, I would caution against buying up a ton of that buckshot until you know how it matters. I have had shotguns before that wouldn't pattern Flite Control nearly as well as they would cheap old Remington Express Buckshot. Shotguns are finicky.

Swatdude1

04-27-12, 23:33

I ordered a case also...should be here on monday...

This post and the other one made me really nervous but I did finally get the shipping confirmation and my shells will be here on Tuesday.

Swatdude1

04-27-12, 23:35

WS6

04-28-12, 00:19

I have a hunch this will be in high demand for the civilian market so I'm not too worried about unloading it for more than I paid if it doesn't work in my gun.

Good deal. I was just saying, I have bought a bunch of ammo before only to find out my weapon did not like it. I felt irritated.

Swatdude1

04-30-12, 15:30

Just showed up a day early!!...:dance3:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1271/132bphoto.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/132bphoto.jpg/)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/969/13244.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/403/13244.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

BullittBoy

05-01-12, 10:02

Any of you lucky guys want to sell me like 25 rounds?
I don't need a whole case of it, I just wanted to try it out.

E-mail me if you do
tschroeder@gillmanauto.com

Kowalski

05-02-12, 19:53

Ammoman (http://www.ammoman.com/p/297/12-gauge-1-buck-by-federal) has it back in stock..

jc000

05-02-12, 22:33

Ammoman (http://www.ammoman.com/p/297/12-gauge-1-buck-by-federal) has it back in stock..

I don't think that's the PB127 DPRS or LE132-1B. Unless it's already gone.

Kowalski

05-02-12, 22:44

It was the LE132-1B, actually. Goes fast.

fog0fwar

05-04-12, 02:01

Just bought these rounds from GT Distributors. LEO only though. I snagged 25 boxes @ $2.99/box.

Just FYI.

Regards,

Fog

M4Fundi

05-04-12, 22:02

Kowalski are you a fan of Mirco Grotto or just Clint Eastwood?

WS6

05-04-12, 22:33

Well, I bought and tested the new slugs. They are flat out trash in both my M1014 and a friend's 590A1. "Patterns" the size of a dinner plate at 40 yards were the norm from both weapons, which previously shot 3-4" fist-size groups with Remington sluggers. So we went to Wal-Mart and picked up some cheap Winchester slugs. They returned 4" or so groups. Both weapons. Very disappointing, and glad I didn't order a lot of 'em.

Ranger buckshot (full-power 9-pellet) was amazing out of my M1014, though. Here is a 40 yard target, 5-shots fired.

http://i48.tinypic.com/108gzth.jpg

Kowalski

05-05-12, 05:45

Fogofwar - That's a great price. I suppose I could have a friend pick some up there, as there is that LE/MIL requirement, but then, I already have this case from Ammoman staring me in the face..

M4Fundie - Replied in PM so as not to derail the thread.

I'm curious about the PB127 DPRS. Brennekes have shot well for me, but for comparison, I haven't yet found much in the way of user experiences with these new Federal slugs as far as accuracy. I'll have to get a few boxes and take a look.

Altair

05-15-12, 22:52

I patterned my 11-87P 18" improved cylinder with the new #1 Federal buckshot, here were the results:

5 yards in the head, 10 yards center mass:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_5to10.jpg

15 yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_15.jpg

20 yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_20.jpg

25 yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_25.jpg

30 yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_30.jpg

As you can see, a hostage head shot is very possible with this load at 5 yards as the pattern (if you can call it that) is still one hole and exactly at point of aim. At 10 yards all pellets were still in the X-ring, at 15 yards all pellets were still in the 9 ring, at 20 yards only one pellet was out to the 8 ring with the rest still in the 9 ring, at 25 yards there was one pellet in the 7 ring, one in the 8 ring, and the rest were in the 9 ring, and at 30 yards all pellets were still in the 8 ring except one that was high just above the 7 (but my whole pattern was high, probably my fault).

Needless to say, this stuff patterns very well out of my gun and I had no cycling issues, though I've only gone through 10 rounds so far. I did prove, with a shot timer, that I can put 4 rounds of this into the center of a silhouette target in under 2 seconds (1.91 to be exact) at 15 yards from the low ready.

60 pellets into one target in under 2 seconds ought to do the trick for home defense, especially since it was at least 5 yards farther than I'm ever going to shoot in my home. And people wonder why I like shotguns for close work...

DocGKR

05-16-12, 11:57

Well done Sir!

Pattern looks exactly like we have come to expect with this superb loading.

The Federal LE132-1B is the top LE/personal defense multi-projectile 12 ga load currently in existence.

CoryCop25

05-16-12, 12:30

Where can I purchase this on a PO for my department? We usually deal with Jerry's in PA.

DocGKR

05-16-12, 13:23

Any ATK LE dealer should have it or at least be able to order it.

I know San Diego Police Equipment (800-367-8989) has a bunch available for west coast agency purchase.

CoryCop25

05-16-12, 15:36

Any ATK LE dealer should have it or at least be able to order it.

I know San Diego Police Equipment (800-367-8989) has a bunch available for west coast agency purchase.

Thanks Doc,
I will give Jerry's a call. We get all our ATK ammo from them.

ST911

05-16-12, 16:30

Not only is it a great load, it is very cost effective at agency pricing. Federal in general, of late.

Altair

06-23-12, 08:20

UPDATE:

Additional pics of 35, 40, 45, and 50 yards:

35 Yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_35.jpg

40 Yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_40.jpg

45 Yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_45.jpg

50 Yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_50.jpg

At 35 yards I only counted 13 holes but a couple might have been 2 so I'm not sure if I was missing pellets. The group still looked pretty good despite being a bit high. At 40 I only had 11 pellets on target and the shot was really high. You can see some very wide spread. There is still a main cluster of pellets with several spread out and by themselves. At 45 I found 13 pellet holes and the shot was better than at 40 (closer to center) but the loose grouping is still apparent. And finally at 50 I still counted 13 pellets with several in center mass of the target.

In short, if you get past 30 yards you need to expect pellets to miss the target. Sometimes they spread evenly and sometimes one or two seem to stray. Regardless, it is certainly not a crap shoot at 50 as I think it is still very reasonable to expect hits on your target. You just need to be very careful about backstop and what is near your target at longer ranges as those stray pellets have to go somewhere.

bzdog

06-23-12, 08:32

Nice. Thanks for the test!

-john

ST911

06-23-12, 09:14

In short, if you get past 30 yards you need to expect pellets to miss the target. Sometimes they spread evenly and sometimes one or two seem to stray. Regardless, it is certainly not a crap shoot at 50 as I think it is still very reasonable to expect hits on your target. You just need to be very careful about backstop and what is near your target at longer ranges as those stray pellets have to go somewhere.

This is not to poke at your work, but food for thought:

The B27 is an exceptionally generous target and skews perception of hit potential. I think your 30yd number is a good one, but I would use a more realistic target to determine how far I could stretch out, and how many of my pellets are within more optimal impact areas in addition to the target at large.

Take this example of OOB fired on a B21 type. If fired on a B27, a shooter might perceive they had much more distance potential than they actually do.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/FCW%20Patterns/8cd3e443.jpg

Altair

06-23-12, 23:56

This is not to poke at your work, but food for thought:

The B27 is an exceptionally generous target and skews perception of hit potential. I think your 30yd number is a good one, but I would use a more realistic target to determine how far I could stretch out, and how many of my pellets are within more optimal impact areas in addition to the target at large.

Take this example of OOB fired on a B21 type. If fired on a B27, a shooter might perceive they had much more distance potential than they actually do.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/FCW%20Patterns/8cd3e443.jpg

I agree that the B27 is a generous target. I use it primarily because it is what we use at work and, therefore, it is a standard for which to compare. We all know a person isn't going to stand in perfect silhouette for you to shoot at him but you have to start somewhere and it reasonably approximates a human in silhouette, though perhaps a bit large.

I don't like the scoring rings on the B27 in particular as a center chest hit is scored lower than a high gut shot and a low gut shot is the same as a chest hit. Not terribly realistic and designed more as a marksmanship test than a combat training aid. Don't even get me started on using it, and that scoring system, for a Police qualification.

I'm not familiar with the B21 but at a glance it almost looks like it is intentionally proportioned wrong. The head looks too large for the body. Is that the case or is it just an illusion from the photo?

ST911

06-24-12, 09:25

I don't like the scoring rings on the B27 in particular as a center chest hit is scored lower than a high gut shot and a low gut shot is the same as a chest hit. Not terribly realistic and designed more as a marksmanship test than a combat training aid. Don't even get me started on using it, and that scoring system, for a Police qualification.

Copy all.

I'm not familiar with the B21 but at a glance it almost looks like it is intentionally proportioned wrong. The head looks too large for the body. Is that the case or is it just an illusion from the photo?

Bad photog. Head is more proportional than depicted.

Discobobby

06-30-12, 16:41

http://www.kylesgunshop.com has Federal LE132-1B low recoil #1 in stock for $5.99 per box or $49.99 for 50. A dollar per shell, but I'm passing it along since there seems to be a lot of interest.

ikor

07-08-12, 15:32

Just ordered 50rd of that TruBall Deep Penetrator slug. Good stuff for cover penetration with the shotgun!

StevenH

10-14-12, 21:37

That's outstanding.

I had been bugging ADK the last couple of years at the SHOT Show about these loads, and was told they were on the way. Glad that they finally did it. :)

Thanks for your efforts on this project OP. Its been several years in the making.

WS6

07-23-14, 03:22

During a shotgun range session a few years ago, I set up at 100yds with what I thought was a box of slugs. I fired five and marched back to check my hits. Finding none, I quickly realized what had happened.
Holding down the target stand was an ammo can with several boxes of rounds. Looking at it more closely, I found an entrance hole on one side, and an exit on the other. The stuff in between had obviously been struck too.

While full ammo cans are not people, that single 00B pellet had enough energy to get through the can. I suspect it would have injured a fleshier target quite handily.

Where I live, there is a 215 yard range that has a rather firm top-layer of soil/grass. More described maybe as "dirt and weeds". One day when I was the only one there, I let rip with my M4 Benelli aiming at about the 75 yard mark on the ground (nothing downrange but steel and the berm). Dumped a magazine of #4 3" buck. The whole field looked like one of those cheap western movie-sets where the sand squirts up from a gatling-gun. They travelled that 215 yards very handily, bouncing every 50 yards or so after the first hit. I can't imagine they got above person-height. Very very disconcerting if you think about a miss with buckshot in a parking-lot or some such.

Also, to add more to the topic (sorry for the necro, I was just Googling and found this thread...)

Here is long-range buckshot test with calibrated gel:
#4B
http://youtu.be/3VTk_7884r8?list=PLfdIkvW5jfhdKblO7DO0t21ehJx9moObn
00B
http://youtu.be/S546W_L0tFo?list=PLfdIkvW5jfhdKblO7DO0t21ehJx9moObn

I would imagine than #1B falls somewhere in the middle, logically.