View Full Version : Why does the BAD lever suck
theblackknight
08-20-11, 18:59
Go ahead, vent. People seem to be having problems I've never had with the thing. It hasnt yet ever hindered me but I'm all about learning from other's mistakes.
Quiet-Matt
08-20-11, 19:06
It does work, I'll give it that. I just dont care for screw-on gadgets on my guns. That and it requires slightly odd dexterity to manipulate it.
IndianaBoy
08-20-11, 19:51
I like both of mine. It has induced some failure to lock back on empty malfunctions. I suspect a stouter spring behind the bolt catch lever would remedy that.
I have gotten accustomed to them and for me they work well.
Many have had problems with it (bolt not locking back). I have not. The only problem I have had is that I am OCD and don't like the wiggle which makes me want to get the 1 piece Phase V version. However, I am going to bite the bullet and buy a completely ambi lower.....eventually.....
juliomorris
08-20-11, 19:55
I actually like the bad lever but Imho it is to long so I cut both mine down so they are just inside the trigger guard. They still function but I'm less likely to accidently relaese the bolt during a mag change. My wife likes it because it is easier for her to operate anytime she needs to lock the bolt back. I would rather it be one pc instead of a bolt on but its what they make.
Muddyboots
08-20-11, 20:02
Make a new part that incorporates the bad lever into the bolt stop. ONE piece. Ship it with a new roll pin and a new spring calibrated for the extra mass of the lever.
Another complaint I've heard is the fact that there is a second dual function control inside the trigger guard.
The whole thing could be made moot by a redesigned lower.
Just some thoughts...
Muddyboots
Leonidas24
08-20-11, 20:03
While we're on the topic does anyone know how to get one off if the head of the screw is stripped? The torx driver that came with it is not catching the teeth inside the head of the screw.
I'd prefer not to cut it off as I'd like to preserve it for future use.
Mine have worked brilliantly, stateside and in the sandbox, but I do agree that they're a poor idea for somebody not intimately familiar with the AR manual of arms to start off with, and are still misunderstood as to their best features. Slightly faster reloads are okay, and simpler bolt release is a big advantage when using a redimag, but double feed clearance is what they're best at.
While I'd prefer a Masada type modified lower where it's a simple ambidextrous bolt lock/release lug that moves vertically and has a calibrated spring for it, the BAD isn't a terrible piece of gear people are making it out to be, and if it wobbles some (because of tolerances between the bolt catch lever pin and lower receiver) I still wouldn't fault the lever, and those are pretty minor grievances.
Muddyboots
08-20-11, 20:10
Well...
The most effective way would be to drill the screw head to separate the parts and then gingerly grab the short remaining screw shank with needle nosed vise grips and rotate it out. Barring that, push the roll pin out and replace the bolt stop.
HTH!
Muddyboots
Make a new part that incorporates the bad lever into the bolt stop. ONE piece.
Phase V makes this. Though they tried to hard to make it "radical" in their current design.
Quiet-Matt
08-20-11, 20:50
While we're on the topic does anyone know how to get one off if the head of the screw is stripped? The torx driver that came with it is not catching the teeth inside the head of the screw.
I'd prefer not to cut it off as I'd like to preserve it for future use.
Dremmel a slot in the head for a small flat blade screwdriver and replace the screw with a cap head. Uses a standard allen wrench and the extra tightness is often enough to eliminate the play between the BAD and the bolt catch. I came up with this after ruining the screws that came with mine. This is the only way I could get these POS things to act right for me.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2wAdgp2SY4o/TYVUSy1c97I/AAAAAAAAIxM/GHyTuiW9ano/s720/mms_picture.jpg
theblackknight
08-20-11, 20:51
Another complaint I've heard is the fact that there is a second dual function control inside the trigger guard.
This I will speak up about this because at no point during a speed reload or a double feed clear does your finger enter inside the trigger guard.
From our POV, we have seen WAY TOO MANY guns not function properly (bolt not locking to the rear on last round) to ever recommend them.
IF the bolt does lock to the rear, the next issue is that the shooter can accidentally bump the lever and close the bolt BEFORE the mag has been inserted. The shooter fails to realize that a round was not chambered and gets a click. This sequence happens much more frequently when the shooter wears gloves.
The REAL reason for why the BAD was invented was to speed up the clearning of a type 3 malfunction. Most people believe that it was designed to speed up an emergency reload. This is not true (according to Magpul).
My main argument for not needing the BAD is because the number of type 3 malfunctions we see these days is really low. The reason for this is all the great mags and and anti-tilt followers available. Back in the day when all we had was cheap USGI mags, we saw A LOT more type 3 malfunctions. Not the case today.
For those that buy the BAD to speed up an E-reload, Costa did some testing on the speed difference. It was so small that it was not worth running it.
We believe that the BAD is such a poor idea that we put our money where our mouth is and stopped stocking them.
C4
Wormydog1724
08-20-11, 21:01
At a rifle match, the stage called for every mag starting on the belt and the mags could only be loaded to 10 rounds each. I believe there were 16 targets, 2 shots each. On my second reload, I had taken an extra shot and ran dry unexpectedly, and kinda screwed my rhythm up. I went ahead an reloaded on an empty rifle that the BCG was locked back, in the confusion that ensued on what the hell had happened because I wasn't supposed to run dry on the first shot of that target, I managed to remember to hit the BAD lever to close the bolt, but at the same time I stroked the trigger and sent a round into the target, luckily for me it was an Alpha, and I knew it was an Alpha, so I continued the rest of the stage. But that was the first time I had ever accidently stroked the trigger and ND'd. Although it wasn't dangerous at the time, I am aware of it now and will be more careful. The RO and several other competitors thought it was a slam-fire or something.
I've never had Faliure to Lock Back with the BAD. Just put one my BCM lower and haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. I don't expect any problems with locking back with it either.
RogerinTPA
08-20-11, 21:39
I haven't had any issues with the BAD lever since they came out and have them installed on 4 ARs. I don't know if it's luck on my part or folks didn't properly install them, or defective lever, but mine work as advertised. And yes, I do shoot the piss out of my ARs.
ForTehNguyen
08-20-11, 22:03
have them installed on 6 lowers, never had to do any modifications to get it to work, just put it on and it worked with Spikes, DPMS, CMMG, and even Cav Arms MkII lowers
While we're on the topic does anyone know how to get one off if the head of the screw is stripped? The torx driver that came with it is not catching the teeth inside the head of the screw.
I'd prefer not to cut it off as I'd like to preserve it for future use.
===========================
Try a T-9 torx bit. The supplied Torx is too small, probably designed to slip before it breaks the screw off. If the srew head is too stripped out to fit, drill it with a 1/8" Left Hand Bit. LINK (http://www.mcmaster.com/#left-hand-drill-bits/=dpjknl) A good hdwe store might have a Left-Hand Bit. They work great.
OR
You could just slowly drill it out with a RH 1/8" bit until the head separates from the screw.
The screw is a 4-40-1/4" Button Head.
Hope this helps.
.
Ridge_Runner_5
08-20-11, 22:44
Many have had problems with it (bolt not locking back). I have not. The only problem I have had is that I am OCD and don't like the wiggle which makes me want to get the 1 piece Phase V version. However, I am going to bite the bullet and buy a completely ambi lower.....eventually.....
I've been thinking about hitting the large piece (the one that goes against the textured side of the bolt catch) with some rubber cement or similar adhesive, which ought to limit the wiggle.
IF the bolt does lock to the rear, the next issue is that the shooter can accidentally bump the lever and close the bolt BEFORE the mag has been inserted. The shooter fails to realize that a round was not chambered and gets a click. This sequence happens much more frequently when the shooter wears gloves.
For those that buy the BAD to speed up an E-reload, Costa did some testing on the speed difference. It was so small that it was not worth running it.
We believe that the BAD is such a poor idea that we put our money where our mouth is and stopped stocking them.
C4
This has been my concern although I've not used a BAD nor seem any malfs with them.
A leo I talked with at our local range a few months back was running a couple of them. He seemed to feel he had found a better mouse trap but watching him drop the bolt the INSTANCE the mag was inserted smacked me with the thought of "how long before the bolt closes on an empty chamber?" I personally like to do my "pull" test to ensure a seated mag before releasing the bolt. I felt the BAD was erasing the line between seated mag and bolt release too much for my comfort. But hey, mabe it's just me.
Thanks Grant, you really are looking out for us:D
I've had nothing but good results from both of mine. Not the first problem. Failure to lock back or anything. Maybe I'm lucky.
At a rifle match, the stage called for every mag starting on the belt and the mags could only be loaded to 10 rounds each. I believe there were 16 targets, 2 shots each. On my second reload, I had taken an extra shot and ran dry unexpectedly, and kinda screwed my rhythm up. I went ahead an reloaded on an empty rifle that the BCG was locked back, in the confusion that ensued on what the hell had happened because I wasn't supposed to run dry on the first shot of that target, I managed to remember to hit the BAD lever to close the bolt, but at the same time I stroked the trigger and sent a round into the target, luckily for me it was an Alpha, and I knew it was an Alpha, so I continued the rest of the stage. But that was the first time I had ever accidently stroked the trigger and ND'd. Although it wasn't dangerous at the time, I am aware of it now and will be more careful. The RO and several other competitors thought it was a slam-fire or something.
I've never had Faliure to Lock Back with the BAD. Just put one my BCM lower and haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. I don't expect any problems with locking back with it either.
Surely you're not blamimg the BAD Lever on this.
When it was introduced I predicted problems with bolts not locking back; I had seen similar problems with other over-sized bolt releases and I was not incorrect in this instance either.
It was interesting to see the problem crop up, and then be dismissed as, 'bad mag springs' and 'bad bolt release springs' and, 'low quality lowers'. Then it became really quiet, and then people finally started admitting it.
Here are my main problems with the BAD:
-Bolts not locking back (seen many many times even with brand new mags)
-Bolts being inadvertently locked open mid-mag (happens especially to those of us who use a high hold)
-Bolts being released before they are intended.
-It's a device made for a problem which, while exists, isn't anywhere close to as large of a problem as it's construed to be--proper PMCS of magazines is more paramount.
-The multitude of douchebags that use them.
wolf_walker
08-21-11, 00:24
Are we purposefully not mentioning the really obvious and now only slightly overpriced alternative that has sprung up recently and seems to address everyone's complaints with ye ole BAD?
Myself I can't stand it sticking through the trigger guard, not to mention the whole might not lock back bit. I'm still green enough with these sticks that functions aren't thoughtless for me in the heat of the moment, so it's just one more thing to think about and slow me down.
Are we purposefully not mentioning the really obvious and now only slightly overpriced alternative that has sprung up recently and seems to address everyone's complaints with ye ole BAD?
Are you talking about the AXTS or the RevEng FCD? ...or am I way off?
wolf_walker
08-21-11, 00:40
Are you talking about the AXTS or the RevEng FCD? ...or am I way off?
Rev's FCD, I really wasn't being a smartass but I see it sounds like it, sorry. Just seems like a natural way for the convo to go but figured I might have missed something. The AXTS looks like a good excuse to build another rifle though.
ETA: I also just had a moment of 2am, been at the range all day and am exhausted, confusion over the fact that there is a BAD lever, and a BAD ambi safety. For some reason. Small as this community of guns and parts are it seems like someone could have picked a different acronym or something.
My main argument for not needing the BAD is because the number of type 3 malfunctions we see these days is really low. The reason for this is all the great mags and and anti-tilt followers available. Back in the day when all we had was cheap USGI mags, we saw A LOT more type 3 malfunctions. Not the case today.
C4
In my case, I was stuck with the small complement of issued magazines I had for that workup, and the lever paid for itself immensely (completing firing strings during out Table III-B night shoot getting double feed after double feed, and still zero saved rounds). Those magazines got subsequently shitcanned, but in that one function the BAD shines.
I can see how most gloves exacerbate this greatly, I guess my desire to type with my gloves helped me keep enough tactile sensation to never have this happen myself.
Don't even get me started on how lost people were when their airsoft PTS systems with BADs starting having the bolt lock back issues far more prevalently.
EzGoingKev
08-21-11, 05:09
While we're on the topic does anyone know how to get one off if the head of the screw is stripped? The torx driver that came with it is not catching the teeth inside the head of the screw.
I'd prefer not to cut it off as I'd like to preserve it for future use.
If it is stripped out I would try a left handed drill bit and see if I could get it to grab and unscrew it.
If that did not work I would weld a washer to it and then weld a nut to the washer and just unscrew it.
Regarding the BAD lever itself, I have never had any problems with the bolt staying open on the last round. Mine fit loose so I took it back off and filed the ledge down a little bit and put it back together and now it fits tight.
theblackknight
08-21-11, 08:03
Weird, I wear gloves every time I shoot my rifle, never had a problem.
Isnt a not-lock-back issue magazine related?
Mine dosent wiggle at all?
If the shooter is sending the bolt home before it chambers a round, he is going too fast. Shooter error. No different then sending the slide home on a pistol before the mag is seated. I've never done either.
Nobody_Special
08-21-11, 09:10
From our POV, we have seen WAY TOO MANY guns not function properly (bolt not locking to the rear on last round) to ever recommend them.
IF the bolt does lock to the rear, the next issue is that the shooter can accidentally bump the lever and close the bolt BEFORE the mag has been inserted. The shooter fails to realize that a round was not chambered and gets a click. This sequence happens much more frequently when the shooter wears gloves.
C4
This has happened to me while wearing gloves. It was during a carbine class in the rain. On several occasions I hit it before the mag was in. Fortunately I noticed each time. I figured I needed more practice with it but when the bolt failed to lock back I removed it. My purpose for having it was because the AR it was on has a Redi-mag and I thought it would be easier to release the bolt. It is definitely easier but at a cost in my opinion.
---
- Sent from my brain using Tapatalk
From our POV, we have seen WAY TOO MANY guns not function properly (bolt not locking to the rear on last round) to ever recommend them.
IF the bolt does lock to the rear, the next issue is that the shooter can accidentally bump the lever and close the bolt BEFORE the mag has been inserted. The shooter fails to realize that a round was not chambered and gets a click. This sequence happens much more frequently when the shooter wears gloves.
The REAL reason for why the BAD was invented was to speed up the clearning of a type 3 malfunction. Most people believe that it was designed to speed up an emergency reload. This is not true (according to Magpul).
My main argument for not needing the BAD is because the number of type 3 malfunctions we see these days is really low. The reason for this is all the great mags and and anti-tilt followers available. Back in the day when all we had was cheap USGI mags, we saw A LOT more type 3 malfunctions. Not the case today.
For those that buy the BAD to speed up an E-reload, Costa did some testing on the speed difference. It was so small that it was not worth running it.
We believe that the BAD is such a poor idea that we put our money where our mouth is and stopped stocking them.
C4
That sums it up perfectly for me. I got one to try as I liked the idea of faster type 3 malfunction clearance. However, first range session out I had the intermittent bolt lockback issue on a rifle that had never ever had that problem over 1000's of rounds. For me, reliable last round bolt hold is far more important than faster type 3 clearance, so I took it off immediately.
The other part of it is I don't particularly want to learn two sets of drills (one for rifles with BAD, one for those without) and then get them mixed up right when you need them.
Nice concept, tried it, not for me, won't ever be trying one again.
One of the only issues I have with this lever is that I wouldn't be able to use it on my work gun because of policy issues. For that reason, I wouldn't want to learn any BAD habits (pun intended) by having one on my 'play' gun. Having a type III malfunction at work then bumbling for a second because im expecting a BAD lever to be there seems like an awkward situation that I don't want to be in.
I've been trying to decide to keep these or take them off ever since they came out. As a lefty, I like being able to sweep the BAD with my right thumb to drop the bolt. Locking the bolt back is a breeze too. However, there have been some unintended bolt drops or failures to hold open. Using preban USGI mags, I haven't been able to completely blame the BAD for the hold open failures though.
After reading all of the feedback here...especially Grant's take...I'm headed into the safe with a torx head screw driver and going back to square one.
ZERO problems on any of my rifles I have them mounted on, through training, classes and hunting.
Sounds like the logical conclusion is if it isn't working as designed on your rifle(s) without inducing malfunctions, then take it off. This applies to some, without a doubt. For others like me, we're not having any problems at all, and it enhances an already excellent weapons platform. Some of these problems reported here and very clearly shooter-induced; blaming the BAD for bad technique and bad training really doesn't hold water.
Pat
That sums it up perfectly for me. I got one to try as I liked the idea of faster type 3 malfunction clearance. However, first range session out I had the intermittent bolt lockback issue on a rifle that had never ever had that problem over 1000's of rounds. For me, reliable last round bolt hold is far more important than faster type 3 clearance, so I took it off immediately.
The other part of it is I don't particularly want to learn two sets of drills (one for rifles with BAD, one for those without) and then get them mixed up right when you need them.
Nice concept, tried it, not for me, won't ever be trying one again.
You are not alone. The above happens to a lot of shooters.
What people fail to realize is that as their gun becomes dirty OR the spring tension on their bolt catch weakens (over time), the once reliable BAD lever won't be so reliable any more.
The Magpul guys do not run this thing. Vickers and Hackathorn do not recommend it either. I think this is known as a clue.
C4
EzGoingKev
08-21-11, 12:44
Vickers and Hackathorn do not recommend it either.
Shit I better go take mine off right now.
Shit I better go take mine off right now.
Don't do that. Use it and attend their classes. This is much more enjoyable. ;)
C4
BushmasterFanBoy
08-21-11, 12:56
I use it, and love it on 2/3 of my AR's. The other one? It doesn't lock back with a BAD. I don't really get any malfunctions with my AR's, so the BAD, for me at least, is just used to speed up reloads. It works, and its an advantage on my kit.
I'm not going to ditch a speed advantage just because its not recommended by some instructors. Those guys (LAV, Hackathorn, etc) are well respected, and their criticisms valid, but in my case, on MY weapons, the BAD works for me. Part of being an intelligent end user is taking things that work for you, in your circumstances, with your equipment, and leaving what doesn't.
What's really funny is that sometimes (say 1 in 50 reload drills) I still slap the release on my BAD lever'ed guns. Old habits die hard, but it goes to show you that even if you completely default to the standard method, its not gonna bite you in the ass.
The only thing to watch out for is whether or not your bolt locks back. Test it before you use it! If it's impeding normal function of the gun, ditch it and don't look back, its not worth it if its causing malfs!
I use it, and love it on 2/3 of my AR's. The other one? It doesn't lock back with a BAD. I don't really get any malfunctions with my AR's, so the BAD, for me at least, is just used to speed up reloads. It works, and its an advantage on my kit.
I'm not going to ditch a speed advantage just because its not recommended by some instructors. Those guys (LAV, Hackathorn, etc) are well respected, and their criticisms valid, but in my case, on MY weapons, the BAD works for me. Part of being an intelligent end user is taking things that work for you, in your circumstances, with your equipment, and leaving what doesn't.
What's really funny is that sometimes (say 1 in 50 reload drills) I still slap the release on my BAD lever'ed guns. Old habits die hard, but it goes to show you that even if you completely default to the standard method, its not gonna bite you in the ass.
The only thing to watch out for is whether or not your bolt locks back. Test it before you use it! If it's impeding normal function of the gun, ditch it and don't look back, its not worth it if its causing malfs!
How much speed do you think you gain? What were your times with and without the BAD?
C4
Wormydog1724
08-21-11, 14:05
Surely you're not blamimg the BAD Lever on this.
I was merely giving my experience with the BAD lever. This has only happened once out of the hundred of times I've used the BAD lever so no I'm not blaming the BAD lever on this. Just giving my thoughts on the subject.
BushmasterFanBoy
08-21-11, 14:23
How much speed do you think you gain? What were your times with and without the BAD?
C4
I get about .25-.5 sec. The reason for that being that I can drop the bolt in the middle of reacquiring my support grip. My left hand is already up when I chamber a round. That's worth it to me, provided of course that I'm completely confident that it won't inhibit the function of my carbine in any way.
My reloads (from the last round shot to the next shot) are usually around 2.5 seconds. If I use my support thumb to release the bolt, it starts nudging closer to 3 seconds. If I can get a slight speed edge, I'll take it, as long as I'm sure that I don't compromise anything else.
With my experience with the BAD, as long as you test it before use, I don't see where it can go wrong. If there's cases of guns going tits up that were working OK one day with the BAD, and then crapped out the next, I'd like to hear them and reevaluate my options.
I just haven't seen/heard the hard evidence yet, other than the already known issues that some guns (including one of my own) won't lock back with the BAD. If there's a chance that a gun could work OK with it, and then have it go bad, then that's something disconcerting, but what I've seen is that it either does or it doesn't work to begin with on certain guns.
Isnt a not-lock-back issue magazine related?
I'd say it's not when people don't have any issues with their rifle before installing or after removing something that attaches to the bolt stop.
It's not everybody, or every rifle, but it does happen.
The other point I'd make is that I don't think it's much help for "regular" shooters. People who are maxed out on speed might get a little faster, for the rest of us we might be better off practicing the regular way rather than trying to buy speed. That same point also applies to triggers and muzzle brakes for a practical carbine, if competition is your thing it might be different.
I've probably been using them longer than all but maybe 5 people in the universe.
I have them, or some variation thereof, on all of my personally owned guns, and many of the guns I have for review. I have never had a problem related to the BAD with any gun I have them installed on. 3 years and literally thousands of rounds.
theblackknight
08-21-11, 18:18
Don't do that. Use it and attend their classes. This is much more enjoyable. ;)
C4
Please ,tell what would happen.
Dapimpspimp
08-21-11, 19:55
I have a one piece Phase V BAD style device on my patrol rifle. I run it in conjunction with a Blueforce REDI-MOD. I like the BAD alot. In my opinion, it's a must have part when using the REDI-MOD.
I've run this setup in a Magpul Carbine class and a Trident Concepts Carbine class. The BAD is great for casualy arm double feed clearance drills. I won't run an M4 style rifle without a BAD.
Jake Bauer
08-21-11, 20:50
Mine has worked flawlessly. I love it.
I tried one after a bunch of people said they help south paws. Generally I run the kac ambi mag release on my gun. I read into people recommending to norgon mag release and bad. Ended up trying it on one gun and hated it. The bad lever really blocked the ambi mag release and didn't help me. I did not experience the issues with the bolt not locking back that some did.
I like most of the magpul products I've used, the bad is the exception.
arizona98tj
08-21-11, 21:05
I've had a BAD on my M&P15 now for over a year. It's been through two 4 day carbine courses. Never had a stitch of trouble with it (or the rifle for that matter). My range partner runs one on his RRA. His has been trouble free as well. IMO, it takes a while (read practice) before it becomes 2nd nature for using it. I don't run one on my backup AR. Don't have an issue switching back and forth.
In summary, I do like the BAD.
in classes, i have seen 8 people including me that had them have failure to lock back on empty malfunctions... i removed it from my 16", but kept it on my 24" since it is still nice when prone, and i dont care if i have failure to lock back
in classes, i have seen 8 people including me that had them have failure to lock back on empty malfunctions... i removed it from my 16", but kept it on my 24" since it is still nice when prone, and i dont care if i have failure to lock back
I can see it as more useful on a precision build because it's shot prone so much. I see an integral bolt release (ala' KAC and Legion) as better, however.
Isnt a not-lock-back issue magazine related?
If said magazine passes PMCS checks, worked 100% properly before, doesn't lock back after BAD installation, and then works again when it's removed--it's the part, not the magazine. Pretty simple. Unless, of course, we want to add the additional step in the PMCS process of, 'does it lock back when a BAD lever is installed', which is asinine IMO.
If the shooter is sending the bolt home before it chambers a round, he is going too fast. Shooter error. No different then sending the slide home on a pistol before the mag is seated. I've never done either.
I see where you're coming from but still disagree. If a widget takes up space that was previously open air and natural movement makes part of the finger go into the same place (like I mentioned in my first post--happens more to people who use a high hold)--it's not really a training issue. In my case, before I could ever get a mag seated when a proper push/pull done, the bolt had already gone home. I had to make a very conscious effort to avoid this problem.
Unsurprisingly, I've seen more Marines have this problem (and the same problem with inadvertently locking it open) than anyone else because the Marine Corps teaches a high hold.
Every one of my ARs has a BAD lever on it, only issue I have is that they do come loose regardless of what type of loctite I try to use. Havent tried JB Weld or Metalset yet.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-22-11, 00:26
The thing with the bad that amazed me the most was how quickly I switched from pre- to post install manual of arms. There is just something intuitive about it that makes it 'dissapear' quickly and just become a reaction, not a concious thought. Sure things can go wrong, but I could also blow a bolt release slap with out it.
I've probably been using them longer than all but maybe 5 people in the universe.
I have them, or some variation thereof, on all of my personally owned guns, and many of the guns I have for review. I have never had a problem related to the BAD with any gun I have them installed on. 3 years and literally thousands of rounds.
I am very much a casual shooter, but I feel a little better having them on my ARs.
2theXtreme
08-22-11, 01:59
Shit I better go take mine off right now.
Me too!!!...
I think one thing we have learned about this thread is that it isn't always a 100% thing that the BAD works. If it works for you and others that is great.
I personally will not add anything that compromises the function of my weapon and I am not going to dick around trying to make my weapon work around a part.
I've probably been using them longer than all but maybe 5 people in the universe.
I have them, or some variation thereof, on all of my personally owned guns, and many of the guns I have for review. I have never had a problem related to the BAD with any gun I have them installed on. 3 years and literally thousands of rounds.
I think one thing we have learned about this thread is that it isn't always a 100% thing that the BAD works. If it works for you and others that is great.
I personally will not add anything that compromises the function of my weapon and I am not going to dick around trying to make my weapon work around a part.
I guess I'm lucky that the only "dicking around" I've had to do was tighten the screw.
In the era of this trend of people swapping brakes/buffers/springs like some sort of mad professor, I'll take the time to tighten the screw.
The good news is that my penis is not threatened by someone else not liking a part that I find useful, and I'm confident in because I actually tried it rather than "theory bash" a "theory based" product, take someone else's word for it, or not use it because I'm afraid my yoda will make fun of me.
I guess you felt like I was taking a swipe at you. Well that wasn't the case. It has jack shit to do with tightening the screw as you put it.
I guess I'm lucky that the only "dicking around" I've had to do was tighten the screw.
In the era of this trend of people swapping brakes/buffers/springs like some sort of mad professor, I'll take the time to tighten the screw.
The good news is that my penis is not threatened by someone else not liking a part that I find useful, and I'm confident in because I actually tried it rather than "theory bash" a "theory based" product, take someone else's word for it, or not use it because I'm afraid my yoda will make fun of me.
TXGUNNER308
08-22-11, 06:07
There is nothing wrong with the BAD lever...people just need to train on how to use it properly.
I guess you felt like I was taking a swipe at you. Well that wasn't the case. It has jack shit to do with tightening the screw as you put it.
No, I thought you were engaging in hyperbole. For every guy that had to "dick around", or felt like he did, do get the BAD to work, there's twenty others that didn't. You just don't hear from them because people only tend to post to bitch, not to praise. I couldn't figure out why you quoted me, someone with at least half-a-dozen BAD levers and 3+ years and thousands of rounds on them, with zero modifications required to any of the dozen or so guns they've been on over that time, as reference "dicking around". Remove from packaging, tighten screw, go shoot. That's it. Well, some of the copycat models have ore than one screw...
and I found it ironic that there was some sort of negative attributed to "dicking around" when this whole site of late has become about people dicking around with their guns, from brakes to triggers to buffers to springs to wondering what size their gas port is when their ability to.. you know... hit the target is still unclear or untested.
I personally will not add anything that compromises the function of my weapon and I am not going to dick around trying to make my weapon work around a part.
I'm with you. It's a silly product that will fade away with time. Right now there are just too many people too stubborn to admit that it didn't make them any better.
(and yes, I have tried it and I still think it's gay)
I'm with you. It's a silly product that will fade away with time. Right now there are just too many people too stubborn to admit that it didn't make them any better.
I don't know that anyone claimed it was going to make them "better". If someone bought one thinking that then I would think they'd be sorely disappointed.
It's a convenience item, that makes certain manipulations easier. It's not "gay" or any other ridiculous term that gets thrown at it. It simply is what it is, and people find it useful or they don't, use it or they don't. The hate that it attracts is simply bizarre. A psychology major could write a dissertation about the reaction people have to some things in the firearms community.
The_War_Wagon
08-22-11, 06:32
This whole thread gives me a warm fuzzy feeling about NOT running them. :D
ares armor
08-22-11, 06:45
I don't know that anyone claimed it was going to make them "better". If someone bought one thinking that then I would think they'd be sorely disappointed.
It's a convenience item, that makes certain manipulations easier. It's not "gay" or any other ridiculous term that gets thrown at it. It simply is what it is, and people find it useful or they don't, use it or they don't. The hate that it attracts is simply bizarre. A psychology major could write a dissertation about the reaction people have to some things in the firearms community.
I usually don't respond to your posts because there is a lot I disagree with you on and don't really want to argue... However, I am with you 100 percent on this one. I have had the BAD on 4 different rifles. Including on a lower that I machined out myself... I have nothing but positive things to say about it. Honestly I am having a ruff time understanding how these things are causing the reported failures. They must be causing some judging by how many people (especially the ones whose opinions I pay close attention to) are reporting them... I have never experienced ANY sort of failure or malfunction that I can attribute to the BAD.
I had one on my issued rifle in Afghanistan on my last deployment... I was not a POG... I was involved in more than a couple firefights. If I were still in the Marines I would put one on my next rifle if I was going there again.
Somehow i have the feeling i am about to get dogpiled for saying the above... :)
I had one on my issued rifle in Afghanistan on my last deployment... I was not a POG... I was involved in more than a couple firefights. If I were still in the Marines I would put one on my next rifle if I was going there again.
Somehow i have the feeling i am about to get dogpiled for saying the above... :)
Dogpiled: yes. Identical story... but I'm a radbn POG.
Another vote in the 'like' camp here.
BAD lever, when it works with the rifle, works well for me. I like being able to control bolt lock without having to take my firing hand off the pistol grip.
I have it on 2/3 AR15 style rifles. The BAD causes the bolt to prematurely lock on one of my rifles. No biggy. If the BAD causes malfunctions, I just take it off and drive on.
............I have it on 2/3 AR15 style rifles. The BAD causes the bolt to prematurely lock on one of my rifles............
Are your lowers all differnt brands? I'm just wondering if the BAD problems some experience are due to a specific lower(s) while the lack of problems for others is due to lowers that work ok with the bolt on.
Please ,tell what would happen.
Good things (especially if they told the instructor that it was "flawless" and then had an issue).
C4
Are your lowers all differnt brands? I'm just wondering if the BAD problems some experience are due to a specific lower(s) while the lack of problems for others is due to lowers that work ok with the bolt on.
As of yet I don't believe anyone has come up with any hard evidence as to exactly why the BAD causes lockback issues on some rifles and not others (and that is including taking user error out of the equation). You definitely cannot tie it down to brand. There are just too many variables as to what it might be...weak(er) bolt catch spring could be one, but it could also be obscure things like an overgassed carbine that really rattles the bolt back might cause it to come unlatched (due to the extra weight constantly on the lever), etc.
At the end of the day its a comparatively big piece of metal hanging off of a tiny little paddle lever that was never designed for such an "extension". Only way to know if its going to work on any individual rifle irrespective of brand is to go out and extensively test it.
As an aside, I agree with some posters above, it is funny how polarizing this little thing is! People who have them and it works great for tend to thing everyone who has a bolt lock back problem is a retard of the highest order and it must somehow be user error, either installing it or using it. People who have problems with them tend to dismiss them as faddy pieces of gay crap that fundamentally interfere with the reliability of the weapon :D
I think its a bit like the steel cased ammo debate.....either run it or don't, its one of those things that has to be tested by the user and particular rifle only.
I get about .25-.5 sec. The reason for that being that I can drop the bolt in the middle of reacquiring my support grip. My left hand is already up when I chamber a round. That's worth it to me, provided of course that I'm completely confident that it won't inhibit the function of my carbine in any way.
My reloads (from the last round shot to the next shot) are usually around 2.5 seconds. If I use my support thumb to release the bolt, it starts nudging closer to 3 seconds. If I can get a slight speed edge, I'll take it, as long as I'm sure that I don't compromise anything else.
Under half a second is what most people find in regards to a speed difference.
With my experience with the BAD, as long as you test it before use, I don't see where it can go wrong. If there's cases of guns going tits up that were working OK one day with the BAD, and then crapped out the next, I'd like to hear them and reevaluate my options.
Look no further than my post and others in this thread and on the forum. The BAD has the capability of turning a working gun into a problem gun real quick.
I just haven't seen/heard the hard evidence yet, other than the already known issues that some guns (including one of my own) won't lock back with the BAD. If there's a chance that a gun could work OK with it, and then have it go bad, then that's something disconcerting, but what I've seen is that it either does or it doesn't work to begin with on certain guns.
It is there, but you have to be willing to accept it.
If you are truly married to the BAD lever, run it through several advanced carbine schools (where they have stringent speed and accuracy requirements). I would also (personally) run it through a low light and shoot house classes. These will ramp up your stress level and is where you can find all kinds of issues with your gear setup.
C4
I find them very useful here in California with our fixed mag AR's. I am putting together a "featureless" AR shortly so I can start use all the standard mags I usually only use when I visit Arizona.
Curious as to where I stand on them after that, but it won't be apples to apples as it will be an AR without a pistol grip.
I have not had any malfunctions to date, but I also have not had the opportunity to really wind one up either.
Are your lowers all differnt brands? I'm just wondering if the BAD problems some experience are due to a specific lower(s) while the lack of problems for others is due to lowers that work ok with the bolt on.
Surprisingly, I have exact duplicate copies of the same weapon from the same manufacturer. Both are 14.7" midlength rifles. For one, the BAD has been on the weapon for about 5,000 rounds without issue. For the other, the BAD causes early lock back. I believe the issue is that the BAD contacts the upper receiver slightly more in the problem weapon, causing early lock back. I could dremel a bit off the BAD to see if that would work, but I just decided to keep that weapon as close to USGI as possible (it even rocks the M68CCO).
My 3rd weapon is a Daniel Defense, on which the BAD has operated without issue.
Although I generally listen to SMEs, I have not found the BAD to trip me up, even during emergency reloads.
jonconsiglio
08-22-11, 09:22
I wasn't going to post in this thread as I've mentioned it before, but some of the comments have given me reason, I guess.
Before I mention my experience again, I think if it's working for you, that's great and keep using it if you feel so inclined. Nobody is wrong here and everyone has their own experiences and that's all that matters.
The problem I see is how emotionally attached people become to their accessories. Look at mags, I can't count how many times I've heard someone say they have an issue with a particular magazine, but for whatever reason feel it needs to be evaluated, analyzed and corrected. Throw it away... There's no need to start a thread about it.
Just because another members likes or dislikes an accessory says very little about them as a shooter and nothing about them as person. For a very short while, I got caught up in a particular style of training and shooting and felt it was the way everyone should do it...almost. Not sure why I went through that, but I did and it's long past. Now, just like before, I understand there's numerous schools of thought and it's the end result that matters, within reason.
I ran the BAD Lever for a little while, maybe 4 months or so of three or four range trips a week. It worked for it's intended purposes and I save a little time, but not much. Well, during a drill my gun hit the deck and impacted the lever. It broke the back plate and it held the catch open just enough that every few rounds would lock the bolt to the rear. It happened a couple times before I realized what was wrong. Had I not kept the wrench in the grip, I'd have had to try to break it off or bend it back without damaging the catch.
I know this is a pretty isolated incident, and it was enough to reevaluate what was really gained by using it, and it really wasn't that much especially when I was doing anything other than flat range drills. Once movement and cover come into the equation and I'm not focused on how fast I can reload or clear a double feed on a timer, or at a carbine competition, it does much less for me.
So, even though I may have only had a couple lock back issues due to the lever in thousands and thousands of rounds, it's the slim chance that I'll experience that same failure again that had me removing them from my other rifles.
Will this happen to others? Doubtful, but there is a small chance. The only way to know for sure is to run it a while. I won't be making fun of anyone for using it and will be glad for them if it allows them to be faster. I would hope they're prepared to rectify the situation should it break and truly evaluate why they're using it and weight the pros and cons, just like with everything else.
For the record, when I started the thread and posted some pics, Dozer immediatly contacted me and sent out a new lever as well as a new MS2 because I broke one of those as well. Even though I no longer use either of those items, I really appreciate how I was treated by Magpul.
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I like the BAD. I probably have 4000+ rounds with a BAD on two rifles without regret.
I've made a minor "mod" to my BAD's to assist in my lack of index finger dexterity that helps me. I've never had an issue of accidently releasing the bolt.
The only issues I have had is about 90% of the time MagPul 20-round mags do not hold the bolt open after the last round. 20-round USGI's work about 75% of the time. Not a big deal to me with 20-rounders because I only use 20-rounders on the bench.
But maybe it's just me...
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I can explain the reasons for it working on some, but not others, a little bit at least.
The bolt stop/catch was never designed to be bigger than it is, the spring was not designed to carry more load than the factory bolt stop/catch. When additional weight is added, the dynamics change. Weight notwithstanding, these levers length is several times longer than the original bolt stop/catch, then the levers are bent to go across the receiver.
If we all used the same receiver with the same LPK, the results would be far more consistent, but probably never uniform. Being many of our rifles have been customized with aftermarket parts, there exist even more variables.
To make things worse, we have to add manufacturing tolerances to the mix. Throw the levers on 100 Colt rifles, we may still get a few that refuse to lock the bolt back, not all the parts are exact all the time, not all the springs have the same tension, etc.
While I neither like or dislike it, I can relate to the compatibility issues that do crop up now and then, we've had to deal with it ourselves.
I haven't heard a "why" it's doing it.
Read Duffy's post a page back
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Site is screwed up...again.
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Does anyone think it could have anything to do with how far your mag catch is screwed into your mag release button? If someone has one that they no longer use and took off their gun, why not try an extra turn on your mag catch into the button, or one turn out? ...
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The problem is with the Bolt Catch that the BAD is attached not the Mag Release.
PS - Looks like the Site is "gill farting" again. This is the second time I've made this Post. The 1st one posted at 10:00 AM when it is after 6:00 PM.
This is a Reply to post #85, well it is #85 at 6:26 PM, no telling what the count will be if this keeps up....? :)
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Never an issue with mine so I love it, however I have seen it cause issues in others peoples rifles. If it works for you keep it, and if it causes problems scrap it.
SWATcop556
08-22-11, 10:29
When the BAD became available to the general public I picked up one to try and see if I liked it and to see how it functioned on my training rifle. I found it very intuitive to use and it didn't affect my rifles function. I found that I didn't use it for reloads at all. I only used it for malfunction clearing and admin clearing my rifle.
I liked the concept a lot and felt it would be a useful addition to my rifles. I ran it on my training gun for almost a year before I decided that I would move it over to my work rifles. I ran it on my SBR for over a year and got to where I found myself looking for it on rifles that didn't have it.
I then picked up a new upper from a quality manufacturer and slapped it on my training lower. I began to have FTF issues when inserting a mag and using the BAD to charge the weapon. Slap the bolt catch and no issues. Use the BAD and FTF. Everything on the upper is in spec, good mags, good ammo. The only difference between a functioning rifle and a ****ed rifle was the BAD. I took it off my rifle and ran it without issues.
My dept. does not allow modifications to dept. weapons (permanent or not) so that no matter what rifle you pick up it is the same across the board. Personal rifles are allowed with admin approval. After much soul searching and taking personal feelings out of it I decided to take the BAD off my rifles.
I gave it an honest assessment and felt the risk outweighs the rewards FOR ME. If it works for you great. If not DON'T USE IT. It's that simple. If you marry yourself to gear because your latest favorite instructor uses and endorses it be prepared and train with said equipment. I've had the opportunity to train with a lot of quality instructors and I incorporate what works FOR ME from each one. A technique, shooting style, or piece of equipment shouldn't be a salvation issue. Use what works. The BAD works for some and doesn't for others. Just know which one it is FOR YOU.
I can see it as more useful on a precision build because it's shot prone so much. I see an integral bolt release (ala' KAC and Legion) as better, however.
This is exactly the conclusion I came to after running BAD's on 5 separate rifles for thousands of training and diagnostic rounds and having both very good and very bad results.
Dennis.
Failure2Stop
08-22-11, 11:10
Much like the slide release on a pistol, if it works for you, it's a good thing. If it doesn't, jettison it. If it doesn't work with your gun, jettison it.
The BAD isn't essential, but proper function is.
When the BAD became available to the general public I picked up one to try and see if I liked it and to see how it functioned on my training rifle. I found it very intuitive to use and it didn't affect my rifles function. I found that I didn't use it for reloads at all. I only used it for malfunction clearing and admin clearing my rifle.
I liked the concept a lot and felt it would be a useful addition to my rifles. I ran it on my training gun for almost a year before I decided that I would move it over to my work rifles. I ran it on my SBR for over a year and got to where I found myself looking for it on rifles that didn't have it.
I then picked up a new upper from a quality manufacturer and slapped it on my training lower. I began to have FTF issues when inserting a mag and using the BAD to charge the weapon. Slap the bolt catch and no issues. Use the BAD and FTF. Everything on the upper is in spec, good mags, good ammo. The only difference between a functioning rifle and a ****ed rifle was the BAD. I took it off my rifle and ran it without issues.
My dept. does not allow modifications to dept. weapons (permanent or not) so that no matter what rifle you pick up it is the same across the board. Personal rifles are allowed with admin approval. After much soul searching and taking personal feelings out of it I decided to take the BAD off my rifles.
I gave it an honest assessment and felt the risk outweighs the rewards FOR ME. If it works for you great. If not DON'T USE IT. It's that simple. If you marry yourself to gear because your latest favorite instructor uses and endorses it be prepared and train with said equipment. I've had the opportunity to train with a lot of quality instructors and I incorporate what works FOR ME from each one. A technique, shooting style, or piece of equipment shouldn't be a salvation issue. Use what works. The BAD works for some and doesn't for others. Just know which one it is FOR YOU.
Get that logic away from my opinion
BushmasterFanBoy
08-22-11, 12:26
snip
C4
Thanks, I re-read the thread and found what you were talking about. I hadn't thought of the bolt catch spring losing power over time. I'll be on the lookout for it on my two AR's that sport BADs, and if it happens, I'll ditch it. Like I said, I also run 1 sans-BAD, so I'm not married to it, but I do like the utility I get with it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-22-11, 12:33
Subtle differences in how people manage recoil along with oddities of a gun? The feeding issue is a new one, that's really odd. BAD not moving the bolt catch fara enough causing drag on the bolt causing issues.
I would have thought that if spring cycling and strength were and issue, it would have come up by now. Once a spring is sprung, I'd think it would cause issues with increasing regularity.
At least in almost all the cases I've read, the issues manifest themselves pretty quickly.
I assume SWAPcop556 tried that upper on other lowers with and with out the BAD.
I'd doubt Magpul would ever release the stats, but I wonder how the return/issue rate with the BAD compares to other products.
To me it would be a BIG Biggy if my rifle failed to function properly. In the times mine didnt...it wasnt fun trying to figure wtf is going on while being shot at. Plus i wouldnt want to be trying to f with my rifle while in a fight either...if it wasnt my fighting rifle it may be a mout point but if it doesnt work right than trash it.
As to my personal experience i tried it because i hoped it would make me quicker and get me back in the fight faster but i dont think it ever made me faster and i found that i constantly hit the sum bitch on reloads by accident before the mag was seated and click. not a warm and fuzzy feeling there. So for that i said the hell with it. And no im not blaming the BAD for my ****ing up but i guess my unconscious reactions couldnt catch on for some reason. I guess my mind cant add something other than what i have done a million times. So if it works for you than hell yeah, if not your out your 30 bucks...well you could probably sell it some one you know for atleast half of that
On the rifle that the BAD caused issues with, I took off the BAD lever. I think I made that pretty clear.
chamber143
08-22-11, 14:48
Another vote in the 'like' camp here.
BAD lever, when it works with the rifle, works well for me. I like being able to control bolt lock without having to take my firing hand off the pistol grip.
I have it on 2/3 AR15 style rifles. The BAD causes the bolt to prematurely lock on one of my rifles. No biggy. If the BAD causes malfunctions, I just take it off and drive on.
To me it would be a BIG Biggy if my rifle failed to function properly. In the times mine didnt...it wasnt fun trying to figure wtf is going on while being shot at. Plus i wouldnt want to be trying to f with my rifle while in a fight either...if it wasnt my fighting rifle it may be a mout point but if it doesnt work right than trash it.
As to my personal experience i tried it because i hoped it would make me quicker and get me back in the fight faster but i dont think it ever made me faster and i found that i constantly hit the sum bitch on reloads by accident before the mag was seated and click. not a warm and fuzzy feeling there. So for that i said the hell with it. And no im not blaming the BAD for my ****ing up but i guess my unconscious reactions couldnt catch on for some reason. I guess my mind cant add something other than what i have done a million times. So if it works for you than hell yeah, if not your out your 30 bucks...well you could probably sell it some one you know for atleast half of that
SWATcop556
08-22-11, 15:25
I assume SWAPcop556 tried that upper on other lowers with and with out the BAD.
That I did. Several different lowers with and without the BAD. No issues with failure to lock the bolt back with or without but throw a BAD on there and about 40% of the time it would have a feedway stoppage. Use the bolt catch and no issues. I tried everything I could think of to rule out other influences other than the BAD but it was the only common factor. Color me confused.:shout:
theblackknight
08-22-11, 15:58
Good things (especially if they told the instructor that it was "flawless" and then had an issue).
C4
No, I'm serious, what would happen. I wouldnt tell anyone it's flawless, I would just say I havent had a reason to take it off.
I don't want to put words in your mouth but since your soo brief, it sounds like they would do whatever just to make sure there is some kind of problem with it because they dont personally like it. Is that accurate? I hope not.
I've never had any issues with the two rifles I have them installed on.
Some don't like it, some do.
So far, there's been a lot of dislike because it's obviously doing something undesirable to some guns, but I haven't heard a "why" it's doing it. Does anyone think it could have anything to do with how far your mag catch is screwed into your mag release button? If someone has one that they no longer use and took off their gun, why not try an extra turn on your mag catch into the button, or one turn out? See if it makes a difference with the BAD attached to a known gun that doesn't "like" the BAD.
Being mine works just fine, I guess I could do it to see if I can cause it to fail, but I figured why mess with it if it's working just fine on my rifle.
No, I'm serious, what would happen. I wouldnt tell anyone it's flawless, I would just say I havent had a reason to take it off.
I don't want to put words in your mouth but since your soo brief, it sounds like they would do whatever just to make sure there is some kind of problem with it because they dont personally like it. Is that accurate? I hope not.
This is not accurate.
C4
This is just from my first hand experience, and I am not an armorer or smith, but I have assembled a few lowers, and put together a few ARs, but I see the AR system as one of balance. There is enough tolerance in each aspect (buffer, spring, BCG, etc.), that everything does not have to be perfect for it function, but it does still have to be in balance. We see this regularly come up now that we have different barrel lengths, with different gas systems, and different buffer weights, for example. In my experience, I put a BAD on a friends BCM I put together, and was about 50% on the bolt locking back on an empty mag. Removed the BAD, and it was 100%. I discovered the RE was not in spec, and there was a lot of scraping...guess that resistance wouldn't normally be a problem, but in addition to the BAD, it was enough to throw it out of balance. I replaced the RE, returned the BAD, and it has been 100% since.
To me it comes down to this. We are constantly trying to find ways to improve the reliability of our defensive carbines. Why put a device on there that has been shown in some cases to decrease reliability? Not it doesn't always fail. However it does pose the potential for failure.
I have ran them on a couple guns. I ripped them off ages ago however after one of my guns started showing problems.
I have a couple on two KAC lowers, and several BCM uppers. They all function 100% clean, dirty, Wolf to Mk. 262. I'm considering taking them off simply because I can't get my damn guns to malf as it is! I don't use it to chamber a round, and considering the only time I need to lock the bolt back outside of administrative purposes is when cheating a malfunction, I might as well not have it.
TonyTacoma
08-23-11, 23:36
To me it comes down to this. We are constantly trying to find ways to improve the reliability of our defensive carbines. Why put a device on there that has been shown in some cases to decrease reliability? Not it doesn't always fail. However it does pose the potential for failure.
I have ran them on a couple guns. I ripped them off ages ago however after one of my guns started showing problems.
All you need to know right here.
rogers0317
08-28-11, 16:49
I had mine on my deployment carbine, and after a few weeks I took it right off.
decodeddiesel
08-28-11, 18:27
I have been running one on my LMT 10.5 MK18 since it was released a couple of years ago. I have been very impressed with the part, and I like the manual of arms it generates.
However, today I took it off and ran my MK18 for 400 rounds without it. I honestly think I am going to leave it off for the time being. Not that there is anything wrong with it, I have never had anything but great success with the part, I just am not sure it is really worth it in the long run.
rogers0317
08-28-11, 18:32
Agreed, I dont think the benifits outweigh the negatives.
PatrolRifleGroup
08-28-11, 19:28
The new FCD can accomplish almost everything that the BAD can (except bolt release), but without the malfunctions. I'm running one now with good preliminary results. I feel confident enough with it that it's on a duty rifle:
http://www.areveng.com/#
I've never liked the fact that the bad required using my trigger finger for anything other than pressing the trigger and releasing the magazine. With the FCD, all you need to do is press the magazine release a little longer while locking the bolt to the rear. To say that this thing is intuitive is an understatement. I will be slowly adding one to all of my guns.
rogers0317
08-28-11, 19:31
That looks pretty cool, keep us posted on the results.
PatrolRifleGroup
08-28-11, 19:38
I ran 500 rounds through it Friday with no malfunctions. This included a bunch of prone shooting with the magazine buried in the dirt. Normal functions of the rifle are unchanged. The added feature is that I can lock the bolt to the rear while simultaneously dropping the magazine. This is good for double-feed clearance, as well as administrative unloading on the range.
I will be on the range a bunch with the remainder of our certification and re-certification classes. It is my intention to have students use and abuse my gun during that time. We'll see how it holds up, but the initial assessment has been good. The rest of the write -up is here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86711
rogers0317
08-28-11, 19:50
Awesome, might pick one up this week to try out.
CarlosDJackal
08-28-11, 21:43
The only function I use the BAD lever for is to lock the bolt to the rear. I neve use it to release the bolt except on my Varminter/F-Class rifle (which requires single loading during a match).
I have ran mine for about 800 rounds with no trouble, but I also cut about a 1/4 of an inch of mine so that my trigger finger wouldn't catch it, that really works for me. If it does create issues off it goes... I carry the wrench to remove it in my stock.
I know this dead horse has been kicked so much there isn't much left for me to kick.
I shoot primarily LH. For me the BAD type devices (currently using Troy's copy) are a very nice addition. Aside from approaching the rifle from the wrong side I have somewhat short fingers.
With a BAD I can reload in a much quicker, smoother, and simple way. I beer can the mag, seat it, and roll my thumb up and tap the BAD to send the bolt home.
I can also lock the bolt back much easier by using my left index finger to push on the bar. It is much easier for me to reach than the paddle (again short fingers).
I have had zero malfunctions caused by or associated with the BAD. If I did, I am sure my opinion would be much different. I think lefty's should at least give it a try if they are at all curious. I choose to go with Troy's version to work better with their ambi-mag release.
I am currently on the fence about this...
Im a lefty.
I live in california where kac ambi lower isnt an option...
The operation of a stock rifle is so engrained in me that I find gadgets like the BAD actually slow me down. If I practiced with them... maybe they'd be a benefit. I feel like, under stress, I'll always revert back to operating a rifle like it is used in stock configuration.
I really just prefer my rifles to be simple. My philosophy on the AR15 platform is that it should be light weight, accurate, and reliable... And more and more it seems like these "carbines" are weighing considerably more than my full-length rifle with an ACOG.
ForTehNguyen
08-29-11, 19:36
I am currently on the fence about this...
Im a lefty.
I live in california where kac ambi lower isnt an option...
Magpul BAD used by a lefty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyrC5mdY8og
I agree with the thought that if it works for you, use it. If it does not, don't use it. If it causes issues on your weapon, leave it off. We should always properly vet any new weapons / gear / accessories / loadout set ups etc, before deploying anything in a "critical use" role.
Having said that here are a few thoughts on the BAD or similar levers.
- I run the BAD on most of my rifles.
- I have been running custom versions of this type of device and I know many others who have been using them prior to the introduction to Magpul. (Sorry Rob, the number is a few more than 5 ;))
- When toying with DIY versions, the weight and angles were always critical and yes things change from rifle to rifle.
- I ran THE original prototype version originally introduced to Magpul and it was a good design and a bit different from what was generally played with at that time.
- I was quite impressed with the final release version design, weight cost / functionality. Even though my original runs 100% to this day it became a no brainer to just buy instead of continuing to make our own.
- Out of all of my design and testing, indeed variables in rifles, actual bolt catch levers, varying springs and even minor differences in uppers including minor tolerance differences including finish could affect the device. However mostly the actual weight of the device and the overall design and the angle were the big keys. My original device, that I still run on one rifle has an adjustable leg that goes through the trigger guard. It can be adjusted to shift the weight / geometry. It can be adjusted where it may or may not work on a certain rifle. The good thing about the Magpul version, was the final lightweight, good durability, and good final geometry.
- As for times, certain people who perform at higher levels of speed will obviously see smaller differences in their times. For myself, I see only a small difference in speed of reloads, but I am at the point where I am shaving tenths and hundreds of seconds. If I did not feel the device, or anything else for that matter, to be reliable on my working weapon, it would not be there. Again what works for me is not universal.
- I find a good advantage and speed in malfunctions.
- I think the BAD or similar levers really shine when I am shooting as a lefty. I see a much greater measurable advantage with all of the above as a lefty.
Here is one of my original versions. I use it on my Sun Devil upper because it fits and the BAD does not. As mentioned it is adjustable or "tunable".
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_34781.jpg
For the nostalgia fans, this is the original prototype pre Magpul. Eventually there were a few of these versions made and circulated. But this is "the rifle" and the BAD version pre-Magpul. Kinda creepy that people see me in various pictures with that rifle and they immediately know who owns it. Also notice the pre-redi mod and the one of the first released T1's and the mount. We also had some of the pre-release PMAG's but for the life of me I can't find them now. We were both a bit younger back then. I have since lost more hair and that prick still looks like a kid. :mad: :D
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Tactical/IMG_13391.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Tactical/IMG_11362.jpg
Jason Falla
08-30-11, 00:08
A couple of observations that I have seen from students on my courses using the Magpul BAD lever.
1. Under stress they accidentally hit the lever during a reload, causing the bolt to go forward. What follows is a mad scramble to regain composure that ultimately ends in an error in the drill, some profanity from the student, and laughter from everyone else.
2. I had an elderly student that was told the BAD would allow him to actuate the controls of the rifle easier due to his age limitations. This only ended up with several close calls where his finger would move perilously close to the two-stage trigger as he was unsure if the bolt was forward under stress and kept hitting the lever. Other times he would forget to release the bolt (Common for many!) and come off the gun to look at the ejection port at the same time feverishly hit the BAD lever and slip off towards the trigger! AD waiting to happen.
3. While clearing a bolt-overide malfunction via the manual method. I have seen almost every BAD user slip off the lever and hit the trigger while mortaring the rifle to the ground. (Once indoctrinated to the BAD lever, students forget that they can use the other side of the bolt catch to lock the bolt!) If the round was to come loose and accidentally chamber as the bolt flys forward as it so often does when students are learning the clearance method, an accidental discharge would almost certainly occur.
4. Yes on some rifles the bolt can either prematurely lock to the rear or not lock to the rear. Its like a magazine that sometimes locks the bolt on the last round. It should be thrown in the trash!
My thoughts! The only thing that should inside the trigger guard...is the trigger! Some people have a hard enough time with the concept of keeping the finger outside the trigger guard until you are looking through your sights and you want them to have their finger in there fumbling around clearing malfunctions and reloading the gun? This lever is not for entry level students for starters. If you have solid skills already, by all means try it! But as I have stated, only the trigger needs to be inside the guard!
The future! The BAD lever will be phased out and replaced by innovative products from manufacturers such as AXTS who have the only real fully ambidextrous lower receiver.
For me! I have been working with AXTS to help design the A-DAC lower. The A-DAC (F) forged lower has the double action catch built into the safety catch and performs the same functions as the BAD levers original purpose of assisting the shooter with secondary malfunctions such as a body obstruction or double feed. Which still occur as much now as they ever did because of shooter error, training scars and faulting equipment.
I have been using standard USGI magazines for over 18 years and all have worked superbly. Clean and maintain your kit and don't be caught out by the industry hype!
"The reliability of your weapon will always be more important that how fast you can fix it!"
Stay safe.
I run classes and comps with mine and have nothing but good things to say about mine.....I have more problems with a left/right handed/dual safety - ie accidentally swiping that with my right finger.
EzGoingKev
08-30-11, 07:47
A couple of observations that I have seen from students on my courses using the Magpul BAD lever.
1. Under stress they accidentally hit the lever during a reload, causing the bolt to go forward. What follows is a mad scramble to regain composure that ultimately ends in an error in the drill, some profanity from the student, and laughter from everyone else.
I was at the range yesterday. For a while I was working on triple taps and speed reloads. I had (5) magazines with me. I would load (3) rounds in each. At speed I would fire off the rounds, drop the mag, insert a new mag, and fire off another group until all the mags were empty.
I did this multiple times and had the issue you spoke of. I "studied" what I did and it wasn't that I hit it accidentally, I hit it early meaning my right hand was working a little faster than my left.
When it went click it took me by surprise but a quick pull of the charging handle while looking to see if there was a round in there had me up and running in a few seconds.
The funny thing was while I was running moving/firing drills with a state trooper friend of mine he some how managed to do the same thing but he does not have a BAD lever on his rifle.
Now do I think the BAD lever sucks? No. Do I think I suck? No. When trying to things fast under stress shit happens. Will I take it off? Probably not. I have had it on my rifle since it came out and have not had any real issues.
CarlosDJackal
08-30-11, 09:34
I was at the range yesterday. For a while I was working on triple taps and speed reloads. I had (5) magazines with me. I would load (3) rounds in each. At speed I would fire off the rounds, drop the mag, insert a new mag, and fire off another group until all the mags were empty.
I did this multiple times and had the issue you spoke of. I "studied" what I did and it wasn't that I hit it accidentally, I hit it early meaning my right hand was working a little faster than my left.
When it went click it took me by surprise but a quick pull of the charging handle while looking to see if there was a round in there had me up and running in a few seconds...
On emergency reload drills, some of my friends who use the BAD lever as a bolt release have had this happen so often that most of them stopped using it except when locking the bolt to the rear.
As you mentioned it's easy enough to fix within a couple of seconds by pulling on the charging handle. That is, once the shooter has gotten over the "WTF?!" phase of discovery. At the range, in a class or in competition this can mean the difference between embarrassment or a loss. In combat it can result in someone's life or limb.
I have been using a BAD lever for more than two years and have them on all my carbines except for one: the AXTS A-DAC. I have come to rely on the BAD lever to simplify my malfunction clearance drills and lock-and-clear manual-of-arms. But I do not rely on it for anything else.
In fact, if the FCD works out, I will be replacing all my BAD levers (except for the one on my Varminter). The BAD lever addresses one of the flaws in Eugene Stoner's design - the need to switch your hands around when trying to clear your rifle. IMHO, the BAD lever is an intermediate answer to what the A-DAC lower is addressing. JM2CW.
Never had any problems from my BAD lever on my LMT. I use it more on malfunction drills, a lot easier to lock the bolt back without lowering my rifle.
Finally got around to removing two BAD levers and this thread came to mind. The first unscrewed no problem; the second had a stripped screw head. Two busted drill bits and a dremmel cutting wheel later it's finally off. :mad:
The next range trip will tell if the occassional malfs were from the BAD or some bad preban mags, but I can promise you all these aren't going back on any of my rifles.
I was at one of Grant's classes early this spring (first class of the year) 7 folks showed up with Bad levers installed on their carbines..6 out of 7 had problems with it, these ranged from bolt not locking back, to operator error, (getting a click instead of a bang) I saw enough problems with it in 3 hrs, that convinced me not to even consider it.. To me it's just one more solution to a problem that dosen't exist..
Hammertime
09-24-11, 14:12
They suck because, If you use them long enough, they will loosen - I have now switched all of mine over to the Phase 5 ebrv2.
After using the Phase 5 one piece levers for many moons, I have found them to be far superior.
For all those desperately scrambling to remove the B.A.D. levers from their rifles, I wholeheartedly agree with your decision. I also would like to properly dispose of these devices so that innocent AR-15 users do not stumble upon them in the future and be needlessly subjected to these same horrors. Please PM me and I will provide you with forwarding information so that they can be mailed to me. Of course, as part of my charitable nature, I will cover any shipping costs and disposal fees.
theblackknight
09-24-11, 22:52
They suck because, If you use them long enough, they will loosen - I have now switched all of mine over to the Phase 5 ebrv2.
After using the Phase 5 one piece levers for many moons, I have found them to be far superior.
The same one has been on my rifle with NO blue goo for like 2+ years and like 5000 rounds later, it's still snug. I have one the comes on and off my issue rifle and no wobble. I'm confused.
ForTehNguyen
09-25-11, 08:18
I was at one of Grant's classes early this spring (first class of the year) 7 folks showed up with Bad levers installed on their carbines..6 out of 7 had problems with it, these ranged from bolt not locking back, to operator error, (getting a click instead of a bang) I saw enough problems with it in 3 hrs, that convinced me not to even consider it.. To me it's just one more solution to a problem that dosen't exist..
operator error isnt the fault of the BAD
operator error isnt the fault of the BAD
You're right it is'nt, but watching those guys fumbling around with it was a invaluable lesson as to why I don't want it. The one guy whose bolt would'nt lock back with it was just lesson reinforcement. As I said in my post, It's a answer to a problem that dosen't exist.. If someone wants to run it, go for it,
You're right it is'nt, but watching those guys fumbling around with it was a invaluable lesson as to why I don't want it. The one guy whose bolt would'nt lock back with it was just lesson reinforcement. As I said in my post, It's a answer to a problem that dosen't exist.. If someone wants to run it, go for it,
============================
I think the problem does exist, whether the BAD is the end-all answer...looks like it depends on the gun, the person, etc. The "problem" is the lack of ambi controls.
I have no issues with the BAD with about 4000 rounds, other than failure to lock back on 20-round mags. I know the BAD's limitations on my guns, so I don't use 20-round mags. Never had an issue with 30-rounders.
But maybe it's just me...
.
This thread sucks...LOL...I took out 3 of my AR's with BAD's today as I have had no problems in the past...well today they would not lock back on any of my mags whether they were 20 or 30 rounders. I think that a one piece unit with a stronger spring would be better. Seems like over time they were "wobbling" more? The screws were not loose but there was more freeplay than I remember. Well the bright light of the day was they all came off with no issues!:D
Oddly enough, my BAD worked great until I read this post. I have removed it and all is well again. I think I will try the Firearm Control Device next.
All my ARs have BADs, never had an issue as long as I used a generous amount of loctite.
Surprisingly, I have exact duplicate copies of the same weapon from the same manufacturer. Both are 14.7" midlength rifles. For one, the BAD has been on the weapon for about 5,000 rounds without issue. For the other, the BAD causes early lock back. I believe the issue is that the BAD contacts the upper receiver slightly more in the problem weapon, causing early lock back. I could dremel a bit off the BAD to see if that would work, but I just decided to keep that weapon as close to USGI as possible (it even rocks the M68CCO).
It shouldn't contact the upper receiver. I think you should try unscrewing it, moving/adjusting slightly and re-tightening.
I had a love hate relationship with mine. Installed it on my Mark 12 upper with a LMT lower and had problems right out of the gate with the bolt not locking back with 20 round magazines from Magpul. 30 rounds always locked back with out incident. Ended up taking the thing off and putting it away for many months in the closet. Brought it out from hibernation and stuck it on my LMT carbine and have not had one problem with it with either 20 or 30 round mags. Love it now. Just won't put it on my Mark 12.
I would recommend it. Just some rifles are limited to 30 round magazines.
It shouldn't contact the upper receiver. I think you should try unscrewing it, moving/adjusting slightly and re-tightening.
On upper's with thicker sidewalls, that need a cutout for the bolt lock, you may run into problems with contact between the BAD and the upper receiver.
vicious_cb
10-11-11, 09:12
I wonder if the bolt release lever on the ACR presents the same problems as the BAD lever.
Have Bad Levers on 3 Ar's. No problems to date.
Pandamonium
10-13-11, 02:18
I have them on 4 rifles with no problems.
It all comes down to practice.......I've seen people including myself screw up with stock standard rifles due to lack of practice.
If you like it & it gives you no problems then use it.
If you don't like it don't use it.
There has been a lot of effort going into debating over a $30.00 part.:rolleyes:
it has zero to do with practice, it comes down to it work on some guns and other it dont.. simple fact.. not user error
For me, the thought process with the BAD went like this
-Might be neat, it's cheap, I'll try it
-Working fine
-[read M4C thread] hm...good points maybe I'll try it without
Recently slapped one back on my lower, it honestly doesn't improve my speed at all and feels clumsy now that I think about it. Too much in/near the TG. I prefer the simplicity without the BAD.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/e163a6c0.jpg
I have them on 4 rifles with no problems.
It all comes down to practice.......I've seen people including myself screw up with stock standard rifles due to lack of practice.
If you like it & it gives you no problems then use it.
If you don't like it don't use it.
There has been a lot of effort going into debating over a $30.00 part.:rolleyes:
There are actually two issues here. One is that it can remove the AR's natural ability to lock the bolt back. The second is changing how most people are taught to shoot (keeping finger far away from the trigger until ready to fire). The BAD (and other devices similar to it) require the shooter to put their finger in or near the trigger in order to operate it. Because of this fact, shooters tend to just keep their fingers down there. Then during an E-Reload, they accidentially bump the lever closing the bolt BEFORE the mag is inserted.
So you have to ask yourself, is this a training/practice issue or just creating bad muscle memory/pattern for weapon handling???
C4
brzusa.1911
10-13-11, 10:03
I have on two ARs and work great, I wouldn't run without it. I am lefty and it really helps during reloads to insert the magazine with the right hand and just tap the level on the right side of the receiver (just as you would the left side of the receiver if you are right handed and doesn't run a BAD). Two thumbs up for me!
So you have to ask yourself, is this a training/practice issue or just creating bad muscle memory/pattern for weapon handling???
C4
Great point
So I see two sides to the debate.
Side A says it is a pointless and troublesome part. I would argue that side A is basing this an experience and opinion.
Side B says it is a great part and causes no problems and makes weapons manipulation easier (not better).
The truth has no agenda and the truth here is this: Both side A and B are correct. I have heard this touted all over this forum whenever people are trying to decide if they should use this part or that part, this optic or that optic, etc, etc. Well the simple fact of the matter is this.
The B.A.D. lever sucks... for some. For others, it does not suck. If the B.A.D. lever causes you problems on your gun, but not other's does not mean that it sucks. It means that the tolerances on your lower are different and therefore the B.A.D. will not work on that particular lower. There are things you can do to try to make it work if you want to such as replace the bolt catch stop spring with a more powerful one. Maybe the tolerances around the stop are too tight for it to work. Maybe the stop itself is out of spec.
The point here is this thread is ridiculous in my opinion as this entire thread is nothing but BS.
**Disclaimer: I use the B.A.D. on one of my rifles. I have had no problems whatsoever with it. Bolt stops on an empty mag like clock work. However, I understand that if I chose to put it on my other rifle, it may not work.
I had the same issue. I used a small cutting head on a dremel to cut a notch just big enough for a small flathead screw driver.
While we're on the topic does anyone know how to get one off if the head of the screw is stripped? The torx driver that came with it is not catching the teeth inside the head of the screw.
I'd prefer not to cut it off as I'd like to preserve it for future use.
How's that? Muscle memory, (which takes practice), is key when it comes to getting used to manipulating a new feature on a weapon. Escpecially when your trying to accustom yourself with anything having to do with fine motor skills (as opposed to gross motor skills).
it has zero to do with practice, it comes down to it work on some guns and other it dont.. simple fact.. not user error
Different strokes for different folks. It seems to be that simple. It comes down to personal preference. If you like it and it works for you, use it. If it doesn't, don't.
CarlosDJackal
10-14-11, 08:38
It mostly comes down to how you use it. I have found that anyone who insists on using it to release their bolt during an emergency reload WILL eventually find themselves in a bad situation. This is usually first indicated by a loud *click* instead of a *bang* because they had released their bolt onto an empty chamber. This usually happens when they are most under duress resulting in those "WTF?" looks. It's not a matter of "IF" but a matter of "WHEN".
I have yet to come across anyone who uses this device for this purpose who has not been burned because of the few fractions of the second they are trying to shave off their reload times. However, I have experienced the advantage the BAD lever provides in clearing malfunctions and making your rifle safe. It is a great device when used to lock an AR's bolt back without having to switch hands.
Just like anything else, it is a double edged sword. Use it in the right manner commensurate with your training, skill and experience and it will provide you with an advantage. YMMV.
Animal_Mother556
10-14-11, 09:13
I've used a BAD for about a year now. It resides on my carbine (PWA lower reciever) with a Redi-Mag sitting in front of it. I have never had an issue with the bolt not locking back. Now...the REASON I chose the BAD lever is because I am left handed. Looking at most of this thread, I saw that there were people saying that the BAD lever changes the "normal" manual of arms for the AR15 and causes bad muscle memory. I completely understand that...for right handed people. I also agree that the speed difference in reloads would me minimal. Also, people are talking about having your finger in the trigger guard during a reload and/or hitting the BAD lever too early (before the mag is seated). Being left handed, my right hand thumb hits the BAD after the mag change. I don't have any body parts touching the BAD until the mag in inserted.
For me (left handed) I ALREADY have a messed up manual of arms...with every firearm I shoot. So, for left handed shooters, I really like the BAD. Is it for everybody? Absolutely not. But, I love having the option of using one on my rifles.
Training is often the key to most things. If one has limited time to train, I usually suggest or provide a more simplified approach to things. The more training and the greater the shooters skill the more we can add be it gear, accessories and tactics provided we properly vet those things as a stand alone and more importantly how items may or may not interact with one another as an entire system before using any item in a "critical use" role.
I know that I am not the norm when it comes to range time and training but that is pretty much my full time job and I am on the range and in shoothouses continually on a weekly basis throughout the year and it has been that way for over a decade. I have also been using this type of device for longer than 99% of the people using them and the exact same device is on each of my individual weapons from day 1 of release, including my highest round count rifle. In other words, not one has been replaced since it went on a rifle. I know this is a small sampling in the grand scheme but this is my own experience with the device.
In the tens upon tens, or more correctly in the hundreds of thousands of rounds fired, I still index at the exact point every time with my trigger finger, which is always on the bottom edge of the mag release button as I view that as my friend. I sweep downward and do not press inward like a button, which IMO avoids the indexing on the device issue. I have actually attempted to push the device and pull trigger but cannot do so without an over exaggerated 2 step conscious effort to push the device then put my trigger finger in the trigger guard and on the trigger, then actually pull the trigger. Again for myself it is invariably a two step effort to make something like that even happen. The device running through the trigger guard is a reasonable argument, however I have yet to see or hear of a confirmed issue with this mechanical design creating a problem. Not saying there hasn't been one as the one in a million incident can and does happen. And yes I am generally a traditionalist type, so this may conflict but my own overwhelming experiences guide me here. Sending bolt home too early? Can't recall doing it unless if it was a mag insertion issue, but the issue is the same on the standard bolt release method, which can be the mag dropping out when the bolt slams home because the mag was not tugged well enough to ensure this. The Pmags tend to stay in the magwell. :) So for myself I will not hit the bad lever to release the bolt until after the definitive "push, pull" of the mag and at the point my support hand is moving to re grasp the rifle. While this is a very infrequent occurrence, I have booted this with the standard bolt release and see no increase due to the lever itself. Same goes for why I don't release the slide early on a pistol when I use my primary hands thumb, training issue.
Again for malfunctions and for use as a lefty is where the device really shines and gives me a distinct advantage where I think shaving time is a genuine lifesaving advantage. Perhaps I train and teach so often with a standard configured rifle that the manual of arms confusion is a non issue and I readily admit that I get more time shooting from my support side alone with a bare bones rifle than most recreational shooters fire all year long from either side. Are my experiences and results normal? I admit that they may not be, but there are far too many shooters having great results from the device. Most of the problems arise from mechanical issues and how the device interacts with the actual mechanical function of the weapon and in those instances it should not be used. Is it a necessity? Far from it. The bottom line is that what works for some may not work for others. If it works for you reliably and makes you better, use it. If not, don't use it. Now if people where shooting themselves in the leg when using it, or having other severe issues not related to mechanical interaction, then I would be opposed. But if it is a training issue, and one has the time and ability to become highly proficient, well that is a shooters choice thing for me.
In closing, I will be the first to admit that I do not generally suggest to shooters to use these types of devices. They need to arrive at that point on their own. As a matter of fact my basic or new guy courses they are not allowed. As with iron sights and stock triggers, I believe one should have a solid foundation and extreme proficiency in their fundamentals and use of the rifle in its most basic configuration. Once the foundation is laid, time, experience and skill will often drive shooters in directions that they wish to travel while formulating their own unique style. At that point I like to think I am mentoring as opposed to just teaching. Are there potentially better devices on the horizon? I hope that to be the case and some look interesting. As always, I am continually looking for improvements in anything that helps me become better at what I do.
It mostly comes down to how you use it. I have found that anyone who insists on using it to release their bolt during an emergency reload WILL eventually find themselves in a bad situation. This is usually first indicated by a loud *click* instead of a *bang* because they had released their bolt onto an empty chamber. This usually happens when they are most under duress resulting in those "WTF?" looks. It's not a matter of "IF" but a matter of "WHEN".
I have yet to come across anyone who uses this device for this purpose who has not been burned because of the few fractions of the second they are trying to shave off their reload times.
Been using them since 2008. No issue related to what you list above.
Been using them since 2008. No issue related to what you list above.
The first function related issue, I'll consider dropping them.
I've had such significant success in being able to clear double feeds (thank you Marine Corps and dumb armorers for refusing to shit-can known bad magazines) in poor conditions (low light, time pressure) that it's still a recommended item, just not an unqualified one, and not for those new to the platform. I still slap the port side of the weapon half the time to send the bolt home.
If anything, I'd be inclined to look at the magazine before the BAD.
Another factor is that my orangutan hands which can comfortably avoid the BAD unless I want to use it.
I had one on my work gun and I never had an issue with it until I went to qualify this year. The bolt failed to lock back and due my failure to count rounds I ran the course a second time. Why it is great for a game gun it ain't for a work gun.
Dan
I had the raw video for a bit, but finally edited it.
BAD Lever Part 1 - Pro's or Con's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aibYvGyufgg
BAD Lever Part 2 - How I use it as a right or left hander.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG2-iNxFqkU
Bad Lever Part 3 - Live fire head to head comparison with the standard bolt release.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCP7t3eRROs
I have been using the BAD for over a year now. Up until recently, I never had an issue with them through a couple carbine classes using them to release the bolt during an emergency reload and during malfunction clearances.
During emergency reloads I hear the bolt lock back, depress the mag release, place the stock between my arm and rib cage with the rifle canted upward, reload (push/pull), and as I am re-shouldering the rifle, I'll hit the BAD to send the bolt forward.
This past weekend I was at a CTT class and Mike Pannone taught us to engage the safety during an emergency reload once the rifle left the shoulder. This simple additional step caused my emergency reload sequence to go FUBAR and I began to accidentally sent the bolt home prematurely using the BAD. I have never practiced the sequence of depressing the mag release and engaging the safety within quick succession and this extra step caused my trigger finger to trip the BAD Lever. Numerous times....
Mike picked up on that and explained to me that this is why he wasn't a fan of this device. I understood and appreciated his reasoning.
Do the rest of you more experienced guys engage the safety on an emergency reload? I realize that this might be a more appropriate question for the Training and Tactics forum, but I was always under the impression that the safety was engaged when the threat was neutralized. Isn't the whole premise of an emergency reload that you ran out of ammo during a fight and you're getting the gun up and running ASAP to deliver more rounds on target? So is it appropriate to engage the safety during an emergency reload?
I feel like I've been training to one set of rules and now have been introduced to another. Just seeking some clarification...
I've been running a BAD too on my AR.. a Sabre 18" A3 type.
On magpul and USGI w/ magpul followers it works flawless, with older type 20 rnd mags en my new surefire 60 rnd it only locks back after the last round if I tilt the rifle 45 degrees tot the right (shooters perspective). This had gotten me thinking...
On the positive, economy of movement. I see people slapping their bolt releases, throwing their weapons slightly of targets and having to re-aquire after having reloaded their weapon. With the BAD, I focus on inserting the mag send the bolt home a go one with whatever I was doing...
On the other hand with me focusing on the reload I have to come of target too, for a shorter while but off target nonetheless.
So, I've got a slightly better economy of movement versus the weapon not functioning as it should with some magazines. Doublefeeds, I remember those from the days back in '98 when I was using either thermolds of USGI mags... Haven't gotten one of those as of lately.
Support hand still needs to insert the mag, it's a slight movement to hit the bolt release after that....
So the jury's still out on my part....I can see it's benefits, but sometimes I also think it's a solution to a non existing problem.
p.s. the tacticallink bolt asssist device is a piece of crap being way to heavy as they made if from steel and won't hold open on any given mag....
jonconsiglio
11-19-11, 07:20
I break the gun down slightly regardless whether I was running a BAD or not.. If I wanted to keep it shouldered, my thumb is already near the bolt release, so I should not see any different shift than using my index finger on my firing hand. I mean, the main movement and force that I'll apply is already over, and that's inserting the mag. Touching the bolt catch with my thumb is less jarring and about the same as hitting a BAD lever. At least in my experience.
uwe1, it was a pleasure to meet you at the class.
I have been in numerous classes and I find it to be a mix of instructors who say engage the safety, those who say don't and those who don't address it. Mike also told me he didn't care for the BAD and I understood his point of view as I go back and forth on it myself.
On numerous occasions, I have seen extra steps, that you are trying out, screw up an entire manipulation sequence. That's why Mike and other instructors say to do it slowly and then speed will come. I (and it sounds like you) made the mistake of trying to go too fast on a manipulation that I had just learned.
All that to say, I wouldn't let an hour of screw ups on a manipulation you just learned cause you to discard the device. It may need to be discarded, but not for that reason.
I haven't used the BAD lever so my comments are from impressions only. Some of the reason given here like people bumping the lever and letting the bolt slam forward or the possibility of an ND are the reason I stayed away from it.
I've said this in the past, call me old fashioned but I just don't like any accouterments in the trigger guard or as close to the trigger as the BAD lever. The only thing in the trigger guard should be the trigger and your finger at the right times.
R.
St.Michael
11-19-11, 15:16
I don't feel I am good enough and well trained without the bad lever and adding another thing I have to learn for no reason doesn't seem that great. I did have one and used it for a few weeks. But like I said I wasn't up to par before so I got rid of it.
ennbeegunny15
11-20-11, 22:20
Well after trouble free 2000+ rounds on my bcm with the bad lever, I finally had problems with the bolt locking on numerous occasions during the 1st 40 rounds I shot today. I had been reading this thread and fortunately I had my tool kit with me so I removed the bad lever. The next 160 rounds were flawless. I'm going to run it without it for awhile and see how it works. It's not really hard to lock it back for malfunction drills without it. I'm a lefty shooter and it doesn't bother me to not have it. Didn't miss it at all. YMMV.
Meta-Prometheus
11-22-11, 22:42
I have a BAD lever currently on my Colt. No issues with bolt back or anything like that. Then again there isn't even 1,000 rounds through it yet. :eek:
Thinking about the posts in this thread, I will likely take off the BAD lever and see how I run without it. The BAD lever has been very convenient for the occasional malfunction. Although I admit, I miss slapping the bolt catch.
Anyways to get to the point, I believe I have actually gotten slower with the BAD lever. Complacency is never a good thing.
My 2 cents on the bad lever:
Functionally it worked great. I had no bolt lock-problems which from what I've read is the main issue associated with the device. Please correct me of im wrong. In the event of a breakage it seems the release would still work but a bent lever might render the gun useless although ive never heard of that happening.
Personally i had a hard time engaging the lever with gloves on which I wear about 8 months out of the year. The advantages for me were faster bolt release and it was easier to lock the bolt back during a cease fire. I am not well versed enough in malfunction drills to attest to its usefulness in that respect.
My number 1 issue that drove me to part with device was it just did not feel like a solid and practical modification like a bcm mod4 ch or a bad-ass selector. There was just too much lateral slop that was more of a function of the bolt release fit. The attachment from paddle to lever was solid. Also it was a pita to remove the lever to drift trigger pins.
Okay, my thumbs are sore, I'll end it and go back to my PBR now:)
I like the BAD lever.
I've got it on my 6933, my 6920, and will put it on my pending SBR once the paperwork gets approved. The paddle on my 6933 had some wobble which made the BAD seem flimsy but Robb at VA Arms fixed that for me.
Even while wobbly it's been a very handy accessory and made operation of the AR just that much easier/faster. I've yet to experience problems.
ForTehNguyen
11-23-11, 08:49
My number 1 issue that drove me to part with device was it just did not feel like a solid and practical modification like a bcm mod4 ch or a bad-ass selector. There was just too much lateral slop that was more of a function of the bolt release fit. The attachment from paddle to lever was solid. Also it was a pita to remove the lever to drift trigger pins.
Okay, my thumbs are sore, I'll end it go back to my PBR now:)
BADs pair up very well with a BCM Gunfighter, ergos are close to my ACRs way of locking the bolt back. Once you practice malfunction drills with both of these vs without these youll see the difference
I finally gave up and ditched the extended bolt catches.
I bought a BAD, and installed it on a Stag lower with LMT M4 upper. I don't know if it was the upper, lower, or bolt catch, but I the rifle occasionally locked open prematurely. Eventually, the bolt catch was so chewed up from the the bolt carrier taking chunks off the top of it, that the catch just wouldn't hold the bolt open.
I put the BAD on another rifle, where it would occasionally release the bolt prematurely. Not a bad thing when it let the bolt fly as a magazine slammed home, but it's not so great when the bolt went into battery when I was just handling an empty rifle, or tucking the butt under my armpit, reaching for a fresh loaded magazine.
I put a Phase 5 EBRV2 on the Stag lower. It worked well with most magazines, but occasionally failed to lock back with PMags, and pretty much refused to lock back with TangoDown mags. The 5.45x39mm magazines don't have the strongest springs, and will very rarely lock the bolt open with the all-steel EBRV2.
I've given up, and removed the BAD and EBRV2. Between the two levers, I think I've had every possible malfunction. If they are not going to work 100%, then I'm not gonna use them. Double-feed drills kind of suck with the little mil-spec bolt catch, but I guess you just can't have everything. Well, at least I can't have everything. YMMV
Maybe if I swapped springs around, stuck only to compatible magazines, or started removing weight from paddles and levers, I could get these things to work. I just don't feel like dicking with them anymore.
Yes, I know this is a 2 year old thread, but why not add another data point? I don't see a newer similar thread.
I ditched my BADs as well.
They are marvelous for clearing malfunctions and releasing the bolt for a slightly faster reload but the downsides when NOT using these functions were too much for me.
The lever caught on EVERY damned thing imaginable when out hunting or hiking and having it poke and then grind against my damned back every time i slung the rifle to use both hands just became more annoying than i was willing to deal with.
If you are on a DA door kicking team and you wear so much armor you look like a ninja turtle it is a great accessory provided it works. Otherwise, i just dont need it.
sinlessorrow
01-20-13, 00:57
I had one on my Colt that would occasionally catch the bolt and lock it to the rear for no reason, when it was removed it never happened again.
Apricotshot
01-20-13, 01:06
I've been running mine for the last 3 years. Not once did someting happen to malf my rifle. Am I having DPMS Syndrome?
For the record I take 5-6 classes a year, and shoot comps around my area when I can. So it's not a lazy rifle.
Shrug.
Functionally, mine was 100%. Like i said, there is alot more to using a rifle than just shooting it and while the shooting portion of the BAD was great, the rest...blew.
I thought it makes you a BAD ass mofo.
No issues to report here,
I had a BAD on a couple of rifles a couple of years ago. They worked fine, very clever, no malfunctions. I could never figure out the hate that they generated here on M4C.
Eventually, I came to the conclusion that the little time that they saved over a conventional manual of arms probably wasn't worth the hassle of screwing yet another doodad on my rifle. So, in my move to simplify, I pulled them off along with a few other little doodads.
Except for the Ace Tactical Bottle Opener. Gotta have that...
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-89887447921587_2242_66062240
I put on a BAD lever since I have no support hand. It relocates the bolt release to my strong hand. Without it I have an additional move - I reach over the top of the receiver to close it- before the gun goes into position. ETA: the fact that bolt release is easier might be a negative thing when I have the gun cradled against my torso or leg and bolt needs to be open. I have to go through the scenarios where my handling may/would out me in this position.
Also it makes a the bolt catch operation easier because the button is physically larger. I can use my support elbow (or knee) to operate it while holding the CH back.
I hope with thorough use to find out if it will stay. I will be watching for the malfunctions that folks have listed here.
IZinterrogator
01-20-13, 08:41
I've had no issues with them by themselves. On the other hand, using one in conjunction with a Redi-Mag or Redi-Mod caused me endless headaches due to the BAD lever rubbing against the Redi-Mag/Mod inside the trigger guard. The magazine follower didn't have enough spring pushing on it to overcome the friction.
P.S. Hey Shorts, long time no see online. How ya been? :D
I've had no issues with them by themselves. On the other hand, using one in conjunction with a Redi-Mag or Redi-Mod caused me endless headaches due to the BAD lever rubbing against the Redi-Mag/Mod inside the trigger guard. The magazine follower didn't have enough spring pushing on it to overcome the friction.
P.S. Hey Shorts, long time no see online. How ya been? :D
Hey buddy, doing good. You?
I've had no issues with them by themselves. On the other hand, using one in conjunction with a Redi-Mag or Redi-Mod caused me endless headaches due to the BAD lever rubbing against the Redi-Mag/Mod inside the trigger guard. The magazine follower didn't have enough spring pushing on it to overcome the friction.
A little bit a filing on the RediMag and the BAD goes a long with to remedy this.
-Jax
jonconsiglio
01-20-13, 09:52
....because mine took an impact during a fall and would hold my bolt open every couple rounds. If it wasn't for the tools I keep in the grip, I would have had to try to break the lever off, which may have resulted in a broken bolt catch lever.
I will NEVER use anything like a BAD again after having such a serious failure.
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/Misc/BAD-01.jpg
NeoNeanderthal
01-20-13, 09:52
I'm running a RevEng FCD and love it. I had been running the bad to help with double feeds but then Vickers explained it to me as this..
The bad does two things for you, (if it even works on your gun)
1) Speeds up Double feed clearance
2) Supposedly slightly speeds up speed reloads.
As for number two it barley does that if at all, AND results in people accidentally sending the bolt forward before a new mag is inserted quite often.
So what your left with (if it works on your gun) is a device that does indeed help with double feeds but at the price of possibly ****ing up your speed reloads. Like grant said double feeds are rare so its not worth it.
The RevEng FCD fixes all these issues while still retaining the ability to speed up double feed clearance. Unfortunately it is vaporware, wish someone would copy it and start making it!!!
I just never thought there was a need for this product.
The BAD lever is another one of those items that I do not see a use for, but if works for you then more power to you. I've used it on a friends AR at an outdoor range and it wasn't my cup of tea, but he loves it.
I did a couple of Magpul classes before Haley and Costa departed the company. One of the things I noticed was the lack of a Bad Lever on any of the Magpul instructor rifles. My wife went to a Magpul class last winter and I observed the same thing, no Bad Levers. I think that is telling.
ramairthree
01-20-13, 14:02
I have not made my mind up on it yet.
Yes, I like, but have not racked up enough time with it.
Will it break on a fall or running into something? It could. Over the years I have busted a couple of pair of bipod legs on an M60, broke the hand guards of a 203, and busted off one of the pre-"buckmaster" old school bayonets off in a dummy on a course.
I started using a "jungle" type attached sling over twenty years ago. About ten years ago I tried a single point. I did not like the way the plate hit my hand when using my thumb to activate the safety. I tried a different type plate, and ended up not liking the single point after a while. I tried a three point. I soon did not like it. For about 7 years I have been happy with the adjustable two points like VTAC. Then I wanted QDs, and have not settled on what I like best for QD. I also keep messing around with sling attachment locations to see it I like it better.
I have changed where I like the forward grip, to no forward grip, but may be going back to it.
I went from a large fixed blade, to a folder, to a multitool, to later multitools, and then back to having that and a fixed blade.
I really liked a redi-mag for a while. Then did not. I have tried a few mag couplers and never really ended up liking any of them.
I hated a fixed FS, went to flip up, and now am ambivalent. I used to hate a fixed rear sight, but am now ambivalent. (for picture when using the optic, I get the speed benefit)
I have not found any light mounting location / activation I like 100%.
I have both prefer using an eotech view wise, but prefer the benefits aimpoint offers.
For a few dozen mags anyway, I have not had any function issues.
I like it so far, but how will it dork me up when using a carbine without them? I may love it, then decide I don't like it.
It's funny with some items. 7 years ago I would have raved about a redi-mag. the speed of the first mag change was awesome. But I got sick of the extra width on my M4. Plus on occasion, I would get the "third mag in the wrong well" change that took more time than the 2nd mag change saved.
That some are having issues with failure to lock back on an empty mag is concerning though. Even if it never happens to me I would have to weight that heavy if I decide I like it.
IZinterrogator
01-21-13, 22:48
A little bit a filing on the RediMag and the BAD goes a long with to remedy this.
-Jax
I did that, but the weld on the Redi-Mod was built up so thick that the BAD lever ended up having to grind through roughly half of the BAD lever's thickness to get clearance. At that point, I decided it had its structural integrity compromised too badly to keep using.
Hey buddy, doing good. You? Stuck in the Stan these days, so the usual. :D
It works for me but may not work for everyone.
Mine has been great, just saw this thread and wondered how I would get on without it.
Over a year since my last post in this thread. Just as an update, I am still running my first production run Magpul BAD lever on my same heaviest use working rifle. Since the BAD lever was installed, the rifle is on its 3rd barrel but the same initial BAD lever. I have tested and evaluated a ton of items, most have come and gone. The BAD lever is still a standard item for me. Pretty much run em on all my rifles. Still zero issues to date.
Bottom line, use what works for you and if it does not work reliably on your rifle, don't run it.
Id like to add one overlooked benefit.....
If your left handed it makes reloads much faster.
Not the intended purpose but it works.
No issues with the BAD lever for me...have one on each of my AR's...
I have one on each of my ARs, and have not had any problems.
I never went with the BAD lever because I was taught to clear malfunctions without. While it probably works great for a lot of people, I don't see the point of learning a new way to clear a malfunction when the way I was originally taught works just fine for me.
One thing that did help was getting a BCM Gunfighter charging handle. Since that thing has a generous sized latch and built like a mini tank, I can get to it and yank it back no worries which lets me concentrate a little more on getting the bolt catch engaged.
I never went with the BAD lever because I was taught to clear malfunctions without. While it probably works great for a lot of people, I don't see the point of learning a new way to clear a malfunction when the way I was originally taught works just fine for me.
Im not sure you are totaly familiar with this deivse according to your post.
http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG980/100
The B.A.D. Lever (Battery Assist Device) is designed to considerably improve the speed and efficiency of the AR15/M16 bolt catch. The B.A.D. Lever quickly addresses reloading and malfunction clearance shortcomings of AR15/M16 platforms by extending a paddle to the right side of the weapon, allowing manipulation of the bolt stop from the fire control/ready position with the right-hand trigger finger.
Functional for both left and right-handed shooters, the B.A.D. Lever also allows traditional bolt catch manipulation according to the AR15/M16 manual of arms.
theblackknight
01-22-13, 13:01
Yeah, it makes everything easier.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I didn't put one on my gun because I don't like putting my booger-hook inside the trigger guard if I'm not actively shooting.
theblackknight
01-22-13, 14:48
Too bad your finger dosent enter the trigger area.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
ROUTEMICHIGAN
01-22-13, 16:04
It doesn't suck. IMO, it works great and I've never experienced any malfunctions induced by the device or has it ever gotten hung up on my gear or interfered with trigger manipulation. Oddly enough, I still find myself reaching around the traditional way to lock the bolt back (or release it) or when releasing the bolt after a mag change with my support thumb as force of habit. Having said that, it's nice to have an option available in case I need to manipulate the bolt without taking my hand off fire control. Took a carbine course this past weekend with John McPhee and one of his colleagues was running one to try it out-- he said it's a great device... when he remembers it's there. I think that is the issue with many of us who were trained since boot to manipulate the bolt release without a BAD. There was another "cool guy" in the class who said he had one on his gun and while functionally he loved it and the BAD worked great, it was just one more thing that could potentially break off his gun so he took it off.
My bad lever work great on my noveske rifle. Maybe sometime ppl get bad part.
Im not sure you are totaly familiar with this deivse according to your post.
I was referring more to the malfunction clearing aspect of the BAD lever. I understand a lot of people use them and consider them a good addition to any AR, but what I was trying to say is that I'm quite content with the way I was initially taught to use the AR.
As with anything, practice makes perfect.
I have two lowers that I've used with the same upper. 1 lower hangs the bolt up every other shot with the BAD lever (barely touches the upper). The other lower runs flawlessly. I'm considering grinding it down on the lower I'm having issues with or just removing both. Makes me worry that it will never be 100%, or at least I'll have that perception...
I have two lowers that I've used with the same upper. 1 lower hangs the bolt up every other shot with the BAD lever (barely touches the upper). The other lower runs flawlessly. I'm considering grinding it down on the lower I'm having issues with or just removing both. Makes me worry that it will never be 100%, or at least I'll have that perception...
You likely just need to a lightly file the profile on the back piece of the bad. Uppers are not all built the same so the angle in the back piece of the BAD doesn't necessarily fit all uppers the same way. If you look on the back piece and the upper there are likely corresponding contact marks. Reduce the contact point and refinish.
ETA: I'd venture to guess this is the issue with many malfunctions of premature lockback. Duh, too much material engages the bolt catch. That's not Magpul's issue, alone at least That is the manf tolerances between uppers, bolt catches and the BAD levers put together. It's all mechanical, not voodoo.
GUNSLINGER733
01-22-13, 23:17
Personally I've never had a problem at least for 1000-1500 rounds before I removed it. It's nice to have at times but I don't feel it being needed. I also don't like how it wobbles and isn't a snug fit.
theblackknight
01-23-13, 12:02
I actually had a dubbafeed on the clock in a match and I was rather happy I didnt have to go double handed to clear it with the BAD Lever.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I've put 8,000 rounds through my rifle with a BAD lever and am yet to have a single malfunction or problem with it. In my opinion, the BAD lever does offer a distinct advantage in speed and efficiency when doing reloads and malfunction clearing.
And if your finger is going into the trigger guard when you're using the BAD lever, you're doing it wrong
I've put 8,000 rounds through my rifle with a BAD lever and am yet to have a single malfunction or problem with it. In my opinion, the BAD lever does offer a distinct advantage in speed and efficiency when doing reloads and malfunction clearing.
And if your finger is going into the trigger guard when you're using the BAD lever, you're doing it wrong
im not near 8,000 round count with the BAD, but the proof of its value comes up every firearms class or dept qual when most guys with BAD levers are back into battery first on the line after a reload. speed and efficiency makes it for me. i realize practice and training with and without the BAD makes a difference in operator performance, the guy who trains with the BAD has a faster reload usually, than the the guy who trains and doesn't run the BAD, in my observations.
It does work, I'll give it that. I just dont care for screw-on gadgets on my guns. That and it requires slightly odd dexterity to manipulate it.
Have you seen the 'Phase 5' Bolt Assist Lever? It's a 1 piece unit that replaces the original bolt release? It fits better and looks cooler than the Magpul version.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n8/eurowannabe/pieces/DSCN1010_zps60a0678d.jpg
As for dexterity issues I don't have them, but I can see where a left-handed shooter would.
For all those complaining about a sloppy fit of the Magpul B.A.D., try shimming it to snug-up the fit.
Have you seen the 'Phase 5' Bolt Assist Lever? It's a 1 piece unit that replaces the original bolt release? It fits better and looks cooler than the Magpul version.
I won't comment on the looks, as my primary reason for using these devices is functionality. I have used both the Phase 5 and the BAD. I sold the Phase 5 and went with the BAD. The Phase 5 takes up a bit more room in the trigger guard area and extends farther out the trigger guard than the BAD. However, it functioned just fine. I just preferred the "lower profile" of the BAD for my purposes.
I shot a couple carbine matches recently. I found that when changing postition (standing to kneeling or prone) a sudden jolt will drop the bolt on a bolt lock situation with the BAD lever. May change it back or do some more training with it.
I shot a couple carbine matches recently. I found that when changing postition (standing to kneeling or prone) a sudden jolt will drop the bolt on a bolt lock situation with the BAD lever. May change it back or do some more training with it.
Jolt as in an impact on the lever itself or jolt on the entire gun?
If jolt on the entire gun check the back piece of the BAD for clearance. If it is to thick is applies a small bit of pressure to the bolt lever and the jolt causes it to release.
my trigger finger bunched up against my BAD levers when not actually on trigger. I liked them otherwise and had them in most of my guns.
Jolt as in an impact on the lever itself or jolt on the entire gun?
If jolt on the entire gun check the back piece of the BAD for clearance. If it is to thick is applies a small bit of pressure to the bolt lever and the jolt causes it to release.
Jolt the entire rifle. I need to tweek my lever or I am touching it somehow. When the timer is ticking the stress level is elevated. I just need to pay closer attention when running the stage so I can diagnose the problem. Thanks for the help.
Jolt the entire rifle. I need to tweek my lever or I am touching it somehow. When the timer is ticking the stress level is elevated. I just need to pay closer attention when running the stage so I can diagnose the problem. Thanks for the help.
Wait a minute, I'm thinking about it backwards. The added pressure on the bolt lever would act to induce lock back, not premature release.
Sorry about that. I had to grab mine and walk through. I'll see if mine prematurely releases on jolts like yours does.
Sorry for the confusion.
ETA: it might not be your BAD lever, it could be the jolt. I tried a small bounce on a locked back bolt both with and without the BAD and the bolt slammed shut. Go ahead and try the same on yours and see if the bolt releases.
Wait a minute, I'm thinking about it backwards. The added pressure on the bolt lever would act to induce lock back, not premature release.
Sorry about that. I had to grab mine and walk through. I'll see if mine prematurely releases on jolts like yours does.
Sorry for the confusion.
ETA: it is not the BAD lever, it is the jolt. I tried with and without the BAD and the bolt slammed shot with a small 6-8" bounce to on the stock. Go ahead and try the same on yours and see if the bolt releases.
As soon as I get home and take it out of service I will try it out.
Thanks
does no one make a SOFTER bolt catch spring? i feel that would help jolting issues (w/or w/out BAD) and would also help the failure to lock bolt back issue some people have. this would allow the magazine to push the catch up easier and hold better, because the spring holds the catch down away from the bolt... not up against it
I havent had an issue with the bad levers at all, I have run them on everything from my 10" SBRs to my 20" SDMR/prairie dog rifle for since they hit the market without a hitch. Only issue I have is the occasional mishap during drill when I forget I dont have it on my issued gun.
does no one make a SOFTER bolt catch spring?
Not sure...but you can cut 2 coils off the spring to improve the holding power of the 'catch'.
Had to do this on my S&W 15-22 after adding an aftermarket EBR, after cutting the spring it holds as designed after the last round was fired, where before it would not stay back after the last round was fired.
If you are worried about cutting a spring buy a back-up before trying the 'cutting' method.
In my case I think it was operator error. I probably hit the lever with my fat finger. There is a little slop in the lever that I need to address.
For those of you that still use a BAD lever but have trouble with it wiggling on the bolt catch, cut a piece of cloth tape sized to the face of the paddle. Be sure the edges of the tape don't roll over the sides of the paddle face as this might impede proper clamping. I cut mine to fit only the serrated area of the bolt catch. Stick it onto the paddle face and re-install the lever (it helps to use cloth tape that isn't "dried up"). Tighten it down after you set the fore/aft position you prefer. It won't wiggle on the catch after that.
This mod will not change the critical dimension necessary to trip the bolt. So, no worries about it bottoming-out against your upper.
[QUOTE=Gunzilla;1519370]Have you seen the 'Phase 5' Bolt Assist Lever? It's a 1 piece unit that replaces the original bolt release? It fits better and looks cooler than the Magpul version.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n8/eurowannabe/pieces/DSCN1010_zps60a0678d.jpg
I run the Tactical Link bolt assist lever on both of my lower receivers shooting over 7000 rounds and it always has preformed as expected with no problems...
trackmagic
04-14-13, 13:24
My experience on the BAD lever was not really bad. I put it on my first AR because I wanted to try all the gadgets out for some reason. It worked as advertised and I never have had any issues with bolts not locking back (other than with one 20-round gen 2 P-Mag that seems to give me trouble in general).
I ended up removing it so I would not learn to rely on non-standard gear on my AR. I can't say I miss it during normal operation. The ONE reason I liked it should not be a concern in the heat of battle... It did make it easier to lock the bolt back manually. With the standard setup I need to take my right hand off the pistol grip and rack the charge handle while I am holding the bolt catch with my left hand.
The BAD lever allowed me to hold the bolt catch with my trigger finger and work the charge handle with my left hand. Normally locking the bolt back is not required while shooting so the benefit it offers does not make it worth it to me.
I can't knock them though. I have not had any issues with them.
Have them on several ARs. Never an issue with any of them.
Being left handed, it helps me to lock the bolt back if, and when necessary, and Loading the mag with my right hand, I can send the bolt home more quickly/effieciently.
The Phase 5 Tactical version also allows access to the hammer pin for removal if needed.
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