View Full Version : WCC brass... tore 2 case heads off in class today
16"
h2 buffer
RRA Chromed Bolt
cleaned a week ago
today ran 300 rounds, mix, LC, UMC, wolf, TZZ, XM193, WCC..
2 times, the extractor tore the side of the head of WCC's.. and easy tap with a cleaning rod removed, not stuck, brass looked ok ,
before this class i have shots 500+ wolf' 200 umc' shit loads of reloads and others, never have i had this issue, any ideas?
and the instructor was using XM193 he had had 5 or so blown/popped primers.. then he got pissed tossed all of it and switched to silver bear and ran 100% :)
SpaceWrangler
08-21-11, 00:24
What rifle? Sounds like a 'shooting 5.56 in a tight .223 chamber' problem.
Heavy Metal
08-21-11, 00:34
Reloads? Likely SAW brass.
Was that XM193 in YOUR rifle?
ForTehNguyen
08-21-11, 08:34
XM193 still blowing primers? Heard this happening sometime back
before this class i have shots 500+ wolf
How well do you clean your chamber?
I would clean my rifle no matter how many rounds I have fired wolf, bear, ect. I understand people want to see how long the ar with di system can perform but taking care of your weapon like cleaning is so easy. Hell I enjoy cleaning my guns:lol:
Sorry for the thread jack but majority of the members on this forum will never need to fire hundreds of rounds and not be able to have the time to clean it. Unless the US as we know it collapse or whatever.
Having fun in the carbine class?
What rifle? Sounds like a 'shooting 5.56 in a tight .223 chamber' problem.
its not a match chamber, it is 223, and i shoot 556 all the time, the most i see is flat primers
Reloads? Likely SAW brass.
no, new old mil surp from late 90's i think
Was that XM193 in YOUR rifle?
i shot his xm193 in my gun when he tossed it out :).. but it shot fine in my gun.
How well do you clean your chamber?
GI chamber brush in a cordless drill...
SpaceWrangler
08-21-11, 18:38
its not a match chamber, it is 223, and i shoot 556 all the time, the most i see is flat primers
There you go. You do know .223 and 5.56 are not universally interchangeable, yes? You can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber, but not 5.56 in a .223 chamber (reliably). There are minute differences that make 5.56 just a wee bit tight in a .223 chamber.
GI chamber brush in a cordless drill...
The chamber should be scrupulously cleaned after shooting steel-cased ammo, before shooting brass-cased ammo.
Do searches on these subjects. There is quite a bit written here on M4C about both issues.
Heavy Metal
08-21-11, 18:45
no, new old mil surp from late 90's i think
Tearing rims or ripping the case head off?
If it is the former, there were some bad lots of Win M-193 type ammo put out in the late 90's in their white box line.
Q3131 IIRC.
Heavy Metal
08-21-11, 18:47
GI chamber brush in a cordless drill...
Waaay overkill and destroys the brush.
Manually spin it on a rod with the handle about 7-10 turns and soak the chamber overnight in Hoppes or Shooters Choice. The carbon and gunk will be throughly broken-down by then and clean out easily.
There you go. You do know .223 and 5.56 are not universally interchangeable, yes? You can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber, but not 5.56 in a .223 chamber (reliably). There are minute differences that make 5.56 just a wee bit tight in a .223 chamber.
The chamber should be scrupulously cleaned after shooting steel-cased ammo, before shooting brass-cased ammo.
Do searches on these subjects. There is quite a bit written here on M4C about both issues.
223 is not "tighter" then 556... the throat lead in is cut longer on 556,,, this only has a effect on chamber PSI
i know on the steel issues, but like i said... iver shot crap loads of mixed ammo, "556/223/wolf" over the years, this WCC was the only stuff that this happened with
Tearing rims or ripping the case head off?
If it is the former, there were some bad lots of Win M-193 type ammo put out in the late 90's in their white box line.
Q3131 IIRC.
Tearing rims
There you go. You do know .223 and 5.56 are not universally interchangeable, yes? You can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber, but not 5.56 in a .223 chamber (reliably). There are minute differences that make 5.56 just a wee bit tight in a .223 chamber.
No there are not. There are no dimensional differences at all between 5.56 and .223 brass.
That is the chamber dimensions. I never said the chambers were the same. I said the brass is dimensionally the exact same.
Which begs the question (to which I'm sure you have an answer), why is ammo marked differently on the container, .223 or 5.56mm?
Thanks
That is the chamber dimensions. I never said the chambers were the same. I said the brass is dimensionally the exact same.
Which begs the question (to which I'm sure you have an answer), why is ammo marked differently on the container, .223 or 5.56mm?
Thanks
SpaceWrangler
08-22-11, 15:49
For most intents and purposes, the two rounds are interchangeable. But sometimes not, as in this case. A 5.56 chamber has a longer throat than a .223 chamber, so 5.56 ammo ideally shouldn't be used in a .223 chamber. I've been reloading a long, long time and this has been common knowledge for quite a while.
Honestly, it's no skin off my back what ammo the OP uses, I was just answering his question to try to solve his problem. A .223 chamber reamed to the small side of the specs may be a bit too tight to reliably function using some mysterious lot of military surplus 5.56 NATO that was sized a bit on the large side of the spec.
If you want your .223 AR to function correctly with 5.56, then have the chamber reamed to 5.56 and be done with it.
Which begs the question (to which I'm sure you have an answer), why is ammo marked differently on the container, .223 or 5.56mm?
Thanks
Because they are loaded to different specs.
A .223 chamber is different than a 5.56 chamber to handle the differently specced loadings.
A 5.56 chamber has a longer throat than a .223 chamber, so 5.56 ammo ideally shouldn't be used in a .223 chamber. Google it if you'd like.
That is the chamber dimensions. I never said the chambers were the same. I said the brass is dimensionally the exact same.
Chadbag
As usual your wrong! The cases are different 5.56 mm case length is 1.760" where .223 Rem cases are 1.750" . The 5.56mm case stuffed into a shorter .223 Rem chamber is not good thing as SAAMI and all the rifle manufactures state unless you feel stuffing .010" of brass into the lead of a rifle is a good thing! This is why the OP is seeing FLAT primers-IE over pressure . It's his face if he wants to continue this practice ! But I would suggest he doesn't for the safety of others around him!:rolleyes:
P.S this is a well documented fact as a reloader I seen this first hand. Please tell me why when I size and reload both .223 rem and 5.56mm brass do I always find the .223 Rem brass alway comes out to be shorter 1.740-1.755" where as 5.56mm brass is always 1.760"- 1.770"? Cause they are different.
Chadbag
As usual your wrong! The cases are different 5.56 mm case length is 1.760" where .223 Rem cases are 1.750" . The 5.56mm case stuffed into a shorter .223 Rem chamber is not good thing as SAAMI and all the rifle manufactures state unless you feel stuffing .010" of brass into the lead of a rifle is a good thing! This is why the OP is seeing FLAT primers-IE over pressure . It's his face if he wants to continue this practice ! But I would suggest he doesn't for the safety of others around him!:rolleyes:
P.S this is a well documented fact as a reloader I seen this first hand. Please tell me why when I size and reload both .223 rem and 5.56mm brass do I always find the .223 Rem brass alway comes out to be shorter 1.740-1.755" where as 5.56mm brass is always 1.760"- 1.770"? Cause they are different.
Nonsense. You see longer 5.56 cases because they were loaded to higher pressures, producing more stretch. They start life the same as .223 cases - usually at around 1.750 +/-.
Chadbag
As usual your wrong!
Au contraire. You are DEMONSTRABLY WRONG.
And with your reply, an asshole as well.
The cases are different 5.56 mm case length is 1.760" where .223 Rem cases are 1.750" .
Both the 223 case and the 5.56 case have identical dimensions, including length.
The 223 case length is 1.760" according to my Lyman 48/49 manual and drawing, with a TRIM TO length of 1.750" (also shown by Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/223_Remington)
The 5.56 case length is 1.760" according to this Wikipedia entry for 5.56 (5.45x45) NATO cases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO
The 5.56mm case stuffed into a shorter .223 Rem chamber is not good thing as SAAMI and all the rifle manufactures state unless you feel stuffing .010" of brass into the lead of a rifle is a good thing! This is why the OP is seeing FLAT primers-IE over pressure . It's his face if he wants to continue this practice ! But I would suggest he doesn't for the safety of others around him!:rolleyes:
He is probably seeing over pressure. I think we all agree to that. But not because 5.56 cases have different dimensions than 223 cases.
The difference is that the CHAMBER for 5.56 has different dimensions (you can research which dimensions yourself) so that 5.56 can be loaded to a different level of pressure. This different level of pressure is possible due to the CHAMBER dimension differences, not the brass.
What makes a bullet a 223 or a 556 is the loading of the bullet (meaing "round", not "slug") (bullet, powder, etc) aiming at a certain pressure level. Higher pressures will cause the case to deform (stretch/expand/etc) differently and using a 5.56 bullet ("round") in a 223 chamber can lead to over pressure problems because this difference in case deformation hits up against a differently sized chamber (leade etc).
P.S this is a well documented fact as a reloader I seen this first hand. Please tell me why when I size and reload both .223 rem and 5.56mm brass do I always find the .223 Rem brass alway comes out to be shorter 1.740-1.755" where as 5.56mm brass is always 1.760"- 1.770"? Cause they are different.
Not because the brass is differently dimensioned, but because the loading is different resulting in different pressures which cause a different deformation to the brass.
It is also possible that some manufacturers who make brass for 5.56 loads use a different kind of brass or that the thicknesses are different in different areas or they process them differently (maybe annealing etc). I don't know but it is possible that brass made for 5.56 may be made differently, but not dimensionally.
In other words, cases getting stuck are not due to the brass being a different size before it goes bang. It is because the 223 chamber cannot handle as much brass deformation as you get with a 556 load with higher pressures.
Shootist/Chadbag
Oh yes this is why my Sav in .223 Rem cases are always 1.740-55" !
Care to expalin that one!:rolleyes: Over pressure? Really so your saying XM193 and AE 223 are over pressured rounds? These are the demensions I find after they are shot , sized. Consistantly! No matter who's brass they are PMC 223, AE 223, Rem 223, XM193 and IMI M193.
After I reload them If I use the 1.760" trim length in my 5.56mm chambered AR's they never grow more then .005" and this is with some max loads! Same when I trim them to .223 Rem 1.750" in my Sav. I get none to .005" growth! Do yourself a favor pull some XM193 and AE223 measure the case length! :lol:
I was actually very impressed with IMI M193 as there cases were very consistant at 1.760 -763" hardly any growth. And of course more accurate because of this. As you can see clearly from the attached pic they are different! And yes the 5.56mm case is longer.:rolleyes:
Shootist/Chadbag
Oh yes this is why my Sav in .223 Rem cases are always 1.740-55" !
Care to expalin that one!:rolleyes: Over pressure? Really so your saying XM193 and AE 223 are over pressured rounds? These are the demensions I find after they are shot , sized. Consistantly! No matter who's brass they are PMC 223, AE 223, Rem 223, XM193 and IMI M193.
After I reload them If I use the 1.760" trim length in my 5.56mm chambered AR's they never grow more then .005" and this is with some max loads! Same when I trim them to .223 Rem 1.750" in my Sav. I get none to .005" growth! Do yourself a favor pull some XM193 and AE223 measure the case length! :lol:
I was actually very impressed with IMI M193 as there cases were very consistant at 1.760 -763" hardly any growth. And of course more accurate because of this. As you can see clearly from the attached pic they are different! And yes the 5.56mm case is longer.:rolleyes:
GunnutAF: Exactly what are you trying to prove?
The OP had some rims torn off. Someone asked about 5.56 loads vs 223 loads. Someone else said that 5.56 rounds have slightly different dimensions so if used in a 223 chamber they might get stuck. THAT IS WRONG. The 223 and 556 brass is the same. There is no difference. You said I was wrong, which I thoroughly rebutted. So, exactly what are you trying to prove with the above missive?
And, btw, in your picture, it is hard to tell, but it seems the brass is actually about the same length, but the OAL is different between the two.
The fact is that the nominal dimensions of .223 and 5.56 brass is exactly the same. Same length, everything. Now, due to manufacturing differences, for handloaders, different trim-to lengths, etc, you may find minor differences between two pieces of brass. But that is not due to a different spec. Both come in to the same overall length of the brass. approx 1.760" (I believe the actual SAAMI spec is in metric terms which comes out to 1.760" or very close to it and is turned into 1.760" for US use)
just a FYI,
It is because the 223 chamber cannot handle as much brass deformation as you get with a 556 load with higher pressures.
thats not it,,, the chamber is the same in 223 and 556 and 223 wyde, only difference is the lead in cut for the throat to slow the pressure spike
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556natochamberversus223remingtonchamber02.jpg
just a FYI,
thats not it,,, the chamber is the same in 223 and 556 and 223 wyde, only difference is the lead in cut for the throat to slow the pressure spike
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556natochamberversus223remingtonchamber02.jpg
Thanks for the clarification. I was not clear in what I was trying to say. The 223 chamber can result in more brass deformation (with 5.56 load) due to a higher pressure spike due to the shorter freebore and leade which does not allow the pressure to "bleed off" causing a higher spike. Or some words to that effect.
Thanks!
Wayne Dobbs
08-25-11, 08:26
Is this ammo by chance the Israeli produced Q3131A? If so, lots of that was overloaded and will pop primers at the cyclic rate. Take a look and advise.
it was new, fresh lot just ordered in.
dont think he has the box anymore.
Chadbag
The OP admitted to shooting 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chamber I am just pointing out there is a difference between 5.56mm and .223 Rem a .010" difference in case length. There fore the OP is stuffing that .010" of case into his lead thats dangerous and has been proven to greatly increase chamber pressures! Hence his stuck cases and ripping off the case head! This is why the SAAMI says not to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chamber.:D
Chadbag
The OP admitted to shooting 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chamber I am just pointing out there is a difference between 5.56mm and .223 Rem a .010" difference in case length. There fore the OP is stuffing that .010" of case into his lead thats dangerous and has been proven to greatly increase chamber pressures! Hence his stuck cases and ripping off the case head! This is why the SAAMI says not to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chamber.:D
There is NOT a 0.01" difference between .223 and 5.56 NATO. Both are the same nominal length of 1.760" long brass.
5.56 NATO rounds do not get stuck in .223 chambers due to a different length.
Please research this or read the explanations I and others have given.
Chadbag
The OP admitted to shooting 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chamber I am just pointing out there is a difference between 5.56mm and .223 Rem a .010" difference in case length. There fore the OP is stuffing that .010" of case into his lead thats dangerous and has been proven to greatly increase chamber pressures! Hence his stuck cases and ripping off the case head! This is why the SAAMI says not to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chamber.:D
No. If it were, why does EVERY load manual list max case length for .223 1.760"? Isn't that the same length as your 5.56 brass theory?
The difference as demonstrated above, is the leade.
Chadbag
The OP admitted to shooting 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chamber I am just pointing out there is a difference between 5.56mm and .223 Rem a .010" difference in case length. There fore the OP is stuffing that .010" of case into his lead thats dangerous and has been proven to greatly increase chamber pressures! Hence his stuck cases and ripping off the case head! This is why the SAAMI says not to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chamber.:D
FYI, i just mic'ed the 3 unfired rounds i was shooting that day
head stamps
wcc-77
tz-8124
RP
all 3 mic'ed at 1.750
Case length for 223 Rem is 1.760" -.030"
The neck should be no less than 1.772" long.
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/223%20Remington.pdf
Also from the SAAMI ! Go to page 7 it clearly states don't use 5.56mm in .223 Rem chambered firearms! What part of don't do you people not understand!:rolleyes: Like I said it's his face press on!:D
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_211-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf
Also from the SAAMI ! Go to page 7 it clearly states don't use 5.56mm in .223 Rem chambered firearms! What part of don't do you people not understand!:rolleyes: Like I said it's his face press on!:D
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_211-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf
Has anybody disputed this? 5.56 is not talking about the brass. It is talking about the loading -- loaded to 5.56 levels.
We all agree that it is generally not wise to shoot 5.56 NATO loads in a .223 chamber.
What misinformation we were correcting is the notion that there is a difference in brass dimensions for 5.56 NATO and .223 and these different dimensions are why you don't use 5.56 NATO in .223 generally. THAT IS FALSE. The dimensions, including length, are exactly the same with the two. The difference is in how they are loaded.
Is this so hard to understand?
Who is it that is wrong as usual?
Chadbag
Then if it the case what is it? It's not the loading, it the case and yes they are different you can believe what your eyes sees or not -look at the freaking picture! If you can't see I'll post another!:rolleyes:
Chadbag
Then if it the case what is it? It's not the loading, it the case and yes they are different you can believe what your eyes sees or not -look at the freaking picture! If you can't see I'll post another!:rolleyes:
What do you think your picture shows you? Please state in clear, correct English, what you think your picture shows you and proves?
It has been clearly laid out to you including the SAAMI drawings that the .223 case is specced the same length (nominal length) as the 5.56 NATO case.
Just put the calipers on what I have. Loaded ammo, not fired cases.
X-tac "5.56 NATO" 62gr FMJ 1.750
AE XM855F 1.755
AE XM193 1.752
Federal .223 55gr FMJ (BP223BL) 1.745
What do you think your picture shows you? Please state in clear, correct English, what you think your picture shows you and proves?
It has been clearly laid out to you including the SAAMI drawings that the .223 case is specced the same length (nominal length) as the 5.56 NATO case.
Yes. I would like to see, in writing from a reputable source, the differences in case dimensions for 5.56 Vs .223 brass. All but one of us knows there are none for the brass - only the chamber specs.
You can lead a house to water....but I'm starting to wonder if it's a troll.
Ok one last time -look at the picture! Unless your freaking blind you'll see there is a very noticeable size difference. Now if you feel real energenic get a .223 Rem Cambered rifle get a 5.56mm sized /trimmed case 1.760 long - take a caliper measure the mouth record it now run through a chambering cycle measure again - I'm willing to bet money unless your chamber is real sloppy you'll see an demsional difference at the mouth of that case ie it's getting shoved into the lead of the chamber -now what happens when you do that by firing it? That sqeeze is on the bullet that means increased pressure in the chamber- as noted by SAAMI of upwards of 80,000 psi. Now if you can't understand this simple english explenation your a lost cause!:rolleyes:
SAAMI spec drawing below. Note the case length is 1.760 -.020". This means the .223 Remington case can be a max length can be up to 1.760" and as short as 1.740". Most fired cases from cheap federal .223 vary from 1.745" to 1.760".
ALL cartridges will get an increased and dangerous pressure spikes from long, out of spec cases. This is NOT what causes the higher pressures by firing 5.56 in a .223 chamber. It's the higher powder charges of the 5.56 and the longer leade of the 5.56 chamber that allows the safe function of the combo.
The difference in 5.56 NATO and .223 Rem chamber is the length of the LEADE. That has nothing to do with the length of the case itself.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/bastardsquad_photos/223Rem.jpg
Ok one last time -look at the picture! Unless your freaking blind you'll see there is a very noticeable size difference. Now if you feel real energenic get a .223 Rem Cambered rifle get a 5.56mm sized /trimmed case 1.760 long - take a caliper measure the mouth record it now run through a chambering cycle measure again - I'm willing to bet money unless your chamber is real sloppy you'll see an demsional difference at the mouth of that case ie it's getting shoved into the lead of the chamber -now what happens when you do that by firing it? That sqeeze is on the bullet that means increased pressure in the chamber- as noted by SAAMI of upwards of 80,000 psi. Now if you can't understand this simple english explenation your a lost cause!:rolleyes:
You are serious using this picture as your proof?
Ok one last time -look at the picture! Unless your freaking blind you'll see there is a very noticeable size difference. Now if you feel real energenic get a .223 Rem Cambered rifle get a 5.56mm sized /trimmed case 1.760 long - take a caliper measure the mouth record it now run through a chambering cycle measure again - I'm willing to bet money unless your chamber is real sloppy you'll see an demsional difference at the mouth of that case ie it's getting shoved into the lead of the chamber -now what happens when you do that by firing it? That sqeeze is on the bullet that means increased pressure in the chamber- as noted by SAAMI of upwards of 80,000 psi. Now if you can't understand this simple english explenation your a lost cause!:rolleyes:
I asked you, in simple English, to please tell me what you think your picture proves. The above ramblings do not do that. Please answer in correct and simple English.
"What does your picture you posted prove?"
I cannot tell what you are trying to say in the above, btw. You do know that as long as both cases are 1.760" or less, both are fine according to spec as long as they are at least 1.740". The difference is in the powder load and other loading parameters.
A case in a 223 gun (ie, a gun with a 223 spec chamber) that is 1.760" long is just fine and within spec and will not cause any pressure problems as long as the load is a 223 spec load. The same case with a 5.56 spec load may indeed have pressure problems, which we all have agreed to long ago.
Simple english there is a difference in case length- SAAMI says not to fire 5.56mm in a .223 Rem Chambered rifle if you can't figire that one out your lost! Enjoy blowing up your rifle! By.:D
Simple english there is a difference in case length-
Simple english: You are once again wrong, as usual.
There is no difference in case length in the spec. That has been shown to you using the SAAMI drawings for the 223.
Where do you get that there is a difference in case length? Please, oh please, show some sort of evidence for your claim that there is a difference in case length between 223 and 5.56.
You have been shown by multiple people using SAAMI drawings as well as other sources (Lyman manual etc) that there is NO DIFFERENCE IN CASE DIMENSIONS BETWEEN 223 and 5.56 BRASS.
SAAMI says not to fire 5.56mm in a .223 Rem Chambered rifle
We agree here. You should not fire 5.56 ammo in a .223 chambered rifle.
However, this has nothing to do with case length and any differences in case spec. Why you keep bringing this up as proof that the cases are different lengths is beyond me. SAAMI saying this is no proof of your claim about case length. SAAMI also specifies a maximum pressure and other things that make up a 223 cartridge. A 223 cartridge is more than just the case. It includes all the specs including OAL maximums, pressure maximums, etc.
We have already agreed that 5.56 specced cartridges are loaded to a different spec which is not safe in a .223 chambered gun.
But it has nothing to do with case length. Your picture did not prove a thing. As long as both cases were at least 1.740" and no longer than 1.760" both are in spec and it does not matter if one is shorter than the other. Both cases are within the 223 spec. The load in each one may or may not be within the 223 spec (pressure, OAL, etc). But case wise they are both in spec. Manufacturing differences are allowed for in the spec, hence the range 1.740-1.760"
if you can't figire that one out your lost!
I seriously recommend that you stop reloading and don't reload any more until you thoroughly understand what all of us have been trying to explain to you. Until you can understand it you are a danger to yourself when you reload as you clearly have no understanding of the principles behind various cartridge specs, what makes a 223 different from a 5.56, etc.
Do yourself a favor. Don't reload until you understand what we have been trying to explain and teach to you.
Enjoy blowing up your rifle! By.:D
I won't blow up my rifle as I understand the difference between 223 and 5.56 cartridges and I can safely work within the specs and make safe cartridges. You obviously don't understand the specs or what any of this means based on your claims and posts in this and other 223/556 loading threads and should cease loading ammo until you have gained a thorough understanding and knowledge base on how ammo works (re: your claim in the other 556 thread about trimming and case capacity), how specs work, etc.
Funny no ones posted the SAAMI data sheet for 5.56mm? Why? I'm going to call the Major Gun makers as well and see if I can get one that says it perfectly fine to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chambered gun any bets on any saying it good thing and they promote it? :rolleyes:
Funny no ones posted the SAAMI data sheet for 5.56mm? Why? I'm going to call the Major Gun makers as well and see if I can get one that says it perfectly fine to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chambered gun any bets on any saying it good thing and they promote it? :rolleyes:
You are a troll. Or an ignoramus.
You have failed repeatedly to answer my simple questions, and keep coming out with deflecting non-answers.
Why do you keep bringing up about it not being "perfectly fine to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chambered gun"? No one is disputing that. The dispute rests on your claim that 5.56 NATO cases are longer than .223, which is not true and which has been proven to you multiple times with SAAMI drawings, 5.56 mm drawings, etc. (Btw, they both have the same max COL as well -- 2.260")
And btw, SAAMI does not have a data sheet for 5.56 NATO as it is not a SAAMI approved cartridge.
Funny no ones posted the SAAMI data sheet for 5.56mm? Why? I'm going to call the Major Gun makers as well and see if I can get one that says it perfectly fine to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chambered gun any bets on any saying it good thing and they promote it? :rolleyes:
Pardon my French, but are you a troll or just an idiot?
Absolutely no one in this thread has indicated it's "perfectly fine" to shoot 5.56 ammo in a .223 chamber. Your (possibly intentional) failure to understand that the difference is in the respective chambers (and not the brass as you erroneously claim) is beyond belief.
Wikipedia cartridge case dimensions for .223 plus one specifically for 5.56. The case specs are the same; specifically the case length for both is listed at 44.70mm (1.760").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO
Funny no ones posted the SAAMI data sheet for 5.56mm? Why? I'm going to call the Major Gun makers as well and see if I can get one that says it perfectly fine to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chambered gun any bets on any saying it good thing and they promote it? :rolleyes:
:confused:
Ha ha! You are serious. SAAMI specs for the 5.56 NATO? No such thing bubba. If you bothered to examine the SAAMI specs of the .223 cartridge and chamber, you would have noticed the case length measurement of 1.760" and the case chamber length of 1.772". You could load a .223 Rem with a case length longer than the specified 1.760" and still be safe (however not recommended).
5.56 is not a SAAMI spec cartridge hence the difference between the two. The 5.56 is rated at higher pressures than the SAAMI .223 Rem.
You obviously lack understanding.
http://www.ramshot.com/powders/
Please compare the .223 loads to the loads listed under <62350 psi. These are 5.56 NATO spec loads.
Take note of the requirement to run the higher pressures using the same bullets and powder-
Application: Bolt Action Rifles and Semi Auto Weapons rated for the latest NATO/MIL ammunition.
No requirement of case length for either. That is because they are the same.
Ring
Were you shooting 5.56mm in a .223 Rem chambered gun?:confused:
Chadbag/Shootist
Ah yes you were stating that it's perfect O.K to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem Chambered gun- cause you keep stating that they are the same - they are not ! Shootist if you actually look at the pic you can see that a 5.56mm cartridge is actually longer in the case length and that's where a tight .223 Rem chamber gets into trouble! YOUR STUFFING CASE INTO THE LEAD! :rolleyes: Every manual I have is a trim to length of 1.750" for .223 Rem this is to ensure you don't stuff case into the lead if you have a tight chamber. Just like every other caliber has a trim to length to ensure you don't stuff the case into the lead! Oh by the way smart guy I've been reloading/shooting probably longer then you've been alive!:dance3:
Kind of doubt it, GNut. I've been shooting since about '60 and reloading since the 70s.
You still don't have a clue on the differences in .223 and 5.56, (it still ain't the length of the case), despite documented proof from numerous knowledgeable people including one very respected firearms manufacturer. Measuring your cases after they are fired and re-sized is worthless in this regard, btw.
Shootist
Well I bow to your supperior age!:D And that picture was of Factory rounds not reloads -so yes there is a difference in case length! Are you infuring that 5.56mm cases grow over .010-.015" plus when fired? That would be amazing as I never had (in 33 years of reloading) any caliber have cases grow that much- NEVER!:rolleyes: So knowing that cases don't grow that much when fire the only explaination is they start out LONGER! IE 5.56mm base case length is 1.760" not 1.750" which blows your" they are the same case size" right out the door! :D And these folks that are and they are as many have said they shoot 5.56mm in .223 Rem chambered guns are playing with fire. They might get away with it alot in bolt guns as they are inherently stronger firearm but these folk stuffing 5.56mm in .223 Rem chambered AR's are fools! I wish them luck cause ther going to need it!:sad: And no I've taken these measurments on cases prior to sizing -on average I see no growth or less then .005" in properly sized and trimmed reloads! The most for Factory rounds is.007"!
Chadbag/Shootist
Ah yes you were stating that it's perfect O.K to shoot 5.56mm in a .223 Rem Chambered gun- cause you keep stating that they are the same
You want more rope to hang yourself with?
Where in this thread have I or shootist~ every claimed that 5.56mm and .223 are the same?
We have repeatedly said they are not the same. We have only said that the BRASS CASE is the same for both .223 and 5.56mm and we have shown written proof that it is so.
We already agreed that they are not the same cartridge and you shouldn't fire 5.56mm in a true .223 chamber.
- they are not ! Shootist if you actually look at the pic you can see that a 5.56mm cartridge is actually longer in the case length
Your picture is worthless. It proves nothing. Manufacturing differences between different makers of cases is what that is. If you measure both, and both are 1.760" or less (not less than 1.740") then both are in spec.
and that's where a tight .223 Rem chamber gets into trouble! YOUR STUFFING CASE INTO THE LEAD!
No you are not. 5.56mm cases are the same length BY SPEC as .223. They can be anywhere from 1.740 to 1.760 and be in spec.
Btw, you have freebore before leade.
:rolleyes: Every manual I have is a trim to length of 1.750" for .223 Rem this is to ensure you don't stuff case into the lead if you have a tight chamber.
No it is not. It is so you don't have to trim every time you load. Trim to 1.750" means you will probably not get enough stretching to push the case past the 1.760" max case length (which is also in evert manual you have).
Just like every other caliber has a trim to length to ensure you don't stuff the case into the lead!
That is not why they have a trim-to length. The manual lists a mac case length and a trim-to length. The trim to length is to get you reasonably under the max length so you don't run into issues with expansion that means you have to trim every time or maybe in sloppy chambers for various reasons.
ETA: The other more important reason for a trim to length is so that all your cases are consistent.
Oh by the way smart guy I've been reloading/shooting probably longer then you've been alive!:dance3:
So? Your knowledge of cases and how things work is awfully thin and weak for someone who has been doing it for so long. Wonder you have not killed yourself yet.
Your pictures don't prove a thing. There is no meaning to the picture. As long as both are no longer than 1.760" and at least 1.740" they are both in spec.
Shootist
Well I bow to your supperior age!:D And that picture was of Factory rounds not reloads -so yes there is a difference in case length! Are you infuring that 5.56mm cases grow over .010-.015" plus when fired? That would be amazing as I never had (in 33 years of reloading) any caliber have cases grow that much- NEVER!:rolleyes:
what does case growth have to do with it? Cases do not have to be under spec after being fired btw.
So knowing that cases don't grow that much when fire the only explaination is they start out LONGER! IE 5.56mm base case length is 1.760" not 1.750" which blows your" they are the same case size" right out the door! :D
Dude I wish you could step back and read what you are writing.
What you said above makes no sense at all. And is no proof at all.
The FACT is (which has been shown to you in SAAMI drawings and other case spec drawings) is that .223 and 5.56mm cases are the same length (max length) BY SPEC. This is not disputable.
And these folks that are and they are as many have said they shoot 5.56mm in .223 Rem chambered guns are playing with fire. They might get away with it alot in bolt guns as they are inherently stronger firearm but these folk stuffing 5.56mm in .223 Rem chambered AR's are fools! I wish them luck cause ther going to need it!:sad: And no I've taken these measurments on cases prior to sizing -on average I see no growth or less then .005" in properly sized and trimmed reloads! The most for Factory rounds is.007"!
Nobody is debating the fact that it's not a good idea to shoot 5.56 in a .223. The other fact that is true, is that you have no ****ing clue why it is not a good idea.
Go call Hornady and tell them they are wrong. I'm fairly sure they will love to hear from you.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/bastardsquad_photos/P1000275.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/bastardsquad_photos/P1000276.jpg
your AE brass sucks.. and it out of spec to start..
i have mic'ed 9 different commercial and nato loads all are "about" 1.750 +-.03
556/223, have the same cut neck in the chamber, neither brass contacts the throat ,,, your concept of how this works is "off"
the 556 is just a hotter load, thats it... think of it as a max load 223... the longer throat in the 556 chamber slows the PSI spike as the bullet jumps from the case to the rifling
thats it...
Brass that is loaded to high pressure will stretch more than typical .223 pressure loads (duh).
With IMI M193 (milspec 5.56) measuring 1.752" - 1.754" unfired, I see as much as 1.776" (+~.0023") after being fired and re-sized.[/U] Black Hills Mk262 Mod 1 is similar although the WCC brass tends not to stretch quite as much.
Move along...nothing unusual here.
5.56mm base case length is 1.760" not 1.750"
I already posted 1.772" is the minimum neck length for the chamber. Even if you were correct about the length being different both are less than the minimum 223 Rem chamber.
Out of town shooter made a very long drive to make our 3-gun match Saturday. His Double Star (marked 1x7 NATO) was doing the same thing - ripping off the rims and leaving the case in the chamber. First with steel case, then with brass. Never completed a stage. Rifle appeared to be clean and well oiled.
If it were me, I would be switching uppers to something else: Noveske, BCM, DD, Colt, etc.
Out of town shooter made a very long drive to make our 3-gun match Saturday. His Double Star (marked 1x7 NATO) was doing the same thing - ripping off the rims and leaving the case in the chamber. First with steel case, then with brass. Never completed a stage. Rifle appeared to be clean and well oiled.
If it were me, I would be switching uppers to something else: Noveske, BCM, DD, Colt, etc.
Or at least reaming it with Ned's reamer.
...with steel case, then with brass. Never completed a stage. Rifle appeared to be clean and well oiled.
Most people have no idea of the sticky gunk cheap steel cased can leave built up in the chamber.
Have any of you actually measured your throats? You might be very surprised to see how long it really is. Most 223 Remington chambers leade are longer than the 5.56 specs. If you have over 1.5K rounds threw it the throat is already wore enough to not worry about it anyway.
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