Negligent Discharge, who has ever had? (& some profanity..)

[jsebens]

Wrong. Was there a finger on the trigger when the gun discharged? That is not accidental. Nitpick words all you want, I'd expect nothing less from the people on this forum.

Hey, buddy. Before you start denigrating the people on this forum and accusing me in particular of nitpicking, I'd like you to back up a few posts and do some actual reading. Check out the examples of weapons discharging when manual safeties or selector levers were rotated, WITHOUT THE TRIGGER HAVING BEEN PULLED.

If you pull the trigger because you're a dumbass, yes, that's negligent. Saying that there's absolutely no way any gun could ever fire without the trigger being pulled is either ignorant or asinine.

Before you accuse people of "semantics", maybe you should go look up what "semantics" really is - the study of meaning. With that in mind, I recommend you reexamine what your chosen words mean.

[GIJew766]

Wrong. Was there a finger on the trigger when the gun discharged? That is not accidental. Nitpick words all you want, I'd expect nothing less from the people on this forum.

So in the sense of the 1911 disconnector that broke, to you that is a negligent discharge? Or in the instance of the slamfire on a doublefeed, that is negligence on the shooter's part even though the trigger finger was nowhere near the boom switch?

Negligence (legal): The failure to exercise that degree of care that, in the circumstances, the law requires for the protection of other persons or those interests of other persons that may be injuriously affected by the want of such care.

A parts breakage is not negligence. That is an unintentional or accidental discharge.

Besides, you've contradicted your own original point when you said there is only negligent discharges, no accidental. Not arguing semantics here, only making sure you are aware of the holes in your logic.


H

[polydeuces]

First: when teaching basic pistol I ALWAYS preach that there's no such thing as an Accidental Discharge, only Negligent. Suffered by fools only.
And now I am a fool.

This and all that follows being said… how many of us (an honest show of hands) have been fools, what caused it and what were the lessons?

A few months ago I took an advanced pistol class. One of the instructors, someone whom I highly respect and who is in my opinion one of the best teachers one can ask for, said something to the tone of " ND's happen, just be smart about it. Be aware of where you're pointing it and what's behind it." Which made me kinda cringe and think to myself…"how can he say this…that will NEVER happen to me. Never!"
Then this weekend the (for me) unthinkable happened. I had a Negligent Discharge.

The details:
Grabbed my trunk-rifle to do some work, took it into my office, cleared as follows: rack it, no round ejects, must be empty - drop hammer - "BANG……!"
So as I sit there with my jaw dropped down to my knees…ears ringing…."What…The ****….Just……..Happened!!!!!!" Answer to self: "You just had a ND, you incedible dumb ****!!!!!!!!!!"
While I am coming to my senses and try to figure out what happened, it IMMEDIATELY becomes apparent what mistakes I made - and there's quite a few….
I was in a hurry. Did not turn the overhead lights on (yet) , just a wee-bit of 40watt desk light.
Did not look careful - have a 10 rd magazine, which I rarely use. It happened to be in. Makes it appear as if it's empty, if one expects to see a 30-rd. mag.
Worse yet - I did NOT visually check to see it was clear, just made the assumption; based on "empty mag-well and no ejected round" assumed it was clear. With 20/20 hindsight of course I then realized it did sound and feel as if I just racked a round.

So what is the morale of this story? The way I see it, as follows:

Frank Borman (Apollo 1 accident investigation) said it so well: a failure of imagination.
Stuff becomes routine, then one fails to imagine in how easily in how many ways it can go catastrophically wrong.
The #1 rue of safety (in my opinion) is muzzle direction.
I now have a neat round hole in my wall, as opposed to something far more disastrous. If all else (the brain) fails this will make it somewhat less of a disaster. (FWIW - SS109 does travel quite far through concrete block....)
Then: Check, verify, and check again. Only then move on.
Then: Don't be distracted when working on guns. Ever. Ever. Ever.
Sure there's a few more lessons to be learned, still working on it.

[NCPatrolAR]

Wrong. Was there a finger on the trigger when the gun discharged? That is not accidental. Nitpick words all you want, I'd expect nothing less from the people on this forum.

You need to check the attitude. Your lack of reading comprehension gives you room to be casting any stones.

[g5m]

I am not particularly fond of the term "negligent discharge" as it has become all inclusive. I have heard instructors say that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge.
Years ago I had a rifle that had a discharge when the safety was moved to 'Fire'. Was that negligence?
As you wrote-- muzzle direction is just about everything in these situations.

[markm]

I don't get all assed up in this stupid terminology, pretentious horse shit. And YES, I've let a round fly that I didn't mean to.

My neighbor showed me the hole in the be of his truck the other day. Rifle shot through the bed, through the cab, and out the driver's side door. Same guy that shot a hole in his kitchen table when I was standing next to him. :eek:

Anyone who is sure it can't happen to him, is a dangerous "expert" in my opinion.... Muzzle discipline to the end!

[glocktogo]

In my mind, negligent discharge implies that harm or damage occurred, or could have easily occurred as a result. If you spank one off into the berm while transitioning targets, it's an unintentional discharge. No harm, no foul, just a negative learning experience.

[okie john]

Many years ago in Thailand, my team was helping train Royal Thai Army troops on the M-60 machine gun. Maintenance and spare parts are a sometime thing in the RTA and these guns had been in Thailand since the Viet Nam War, so they were pretty beat up. We had a failure to fire, so we (three of us, incluing two SF Weapons Sergeants) cleared the gun and moved it behind the line, where it sat on its bipod with the feed tray cover open.

A few minutes later, on of the 18Bs decided to see what was wrong with it. He lifted it by the butt and was about to pull the buttstock off when the round in the chamber cooked off. Had that happened a few seconds earlier, the bullet would have gone straight through a cluster of RTA troops who were standing on the line.

Later examination showed that the extractor had sheared. Nobody saw a round come out of the chamber, and because we were too familiar with the M-60, NONE of us checked the chamber itself.

Sweet Jebus, we got lucky that day.


Okie John

[QuietShootr]

Yes. And just as a cautionary tale, non-negligent mechanical failures happen too. A good friend had a 1911 disconnector break and the gun went auto on him, and it climbed above horizontal and killed one of his neighbors 300 yards away.

My friend just got out of jail. Amazing what a motivated-to-****-you prosecutor can do when they really want to. I am NOT going to go further into the particulars of the incident, but just know that not all escaped rounds are negligent. It's simply a risk you take when handling guns. As Jeff Cooper once said, "Anyone who is terrified of gun accidents can avoid having one by never touching a gun."

[Dragon88]

There is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only negligent. Yes there can be mechanical failures other odd circumstances, but if you PULL the TRIGGER and discharge a round when you didn't intend to, that is an ND. The OPs incident is a classic negligent discharge.

Be lucky you only have to deal with your pride on this one. NDs end lives, and in the military or law enforcement, end careers.

[Jay Cunningham]

I say that if the gun goes off but you were following the 4 Rules, then it's an Accidental Discharge. If the gun goes off and you were violating the 4 Rules, it was a Negligent Discharge.

YMMV

[jsebens]

There is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only negligent. Yes there can be mechanical failures other odd circumstances, but if you PULL the TRIGGER and discharge a round when you didn't intend to, that is an ND. The OPs incident is a classic negligent discharge.

Be lucky you only have to deal with your pride on this one. NDs end lives, and in the military or law enforcement, end careers.

If there is a mechanical failure that causes the gun to discharge when it should not, is that not an accidental discharge in the finest sense of the term?

[AGENT TIKKI]

Are slam fires considered NDs?

A while back, we were out in the desert for a shoot. My uncle was using some really crappy russian ammo in his AR. I after a few FTE/FTFs (all in just a couple mags) I hear him cussing up a storm and running back to our table to clear a jam. A couple minutes later, while I was walking back to our setup table he fires off a round. His rifle was pointed down 90 degrees away from me about 10 feet away from me. I think he was trying to clear a double feed and his bolt closed and fired off the round, his hand wasn't even close to the trigger. In fact I clearly remeber his left hand on the handguard and rh holding a screwdriver and his eyes bugging out in surprise.

Wouldn't this be considered an accidental discharge?

[JSantoro]

If there is a mechanical failure that causes the gun to discharge when it should not, is that not an accidental discharge in the finest sense of the term?

Yes. By any logical/rhetorical construct, he invalidated his own statement, and even did so in the same sentence. Impressive, in a Bizarro Superman way.... :D

[polydeuces]

For sake of semantics I guess mechanical/equipment failure (perhaps) would take it out of our control, and would make it an accident.
If the shooter bears any form of responsibility, it's negligence.

If I'm not mistaken almost any unintended discharge, accidental or negligent, involves a finger on a trigger and a round chambered when there should not have been one. So there is the sticky part - how much culpability are we willing to accept in that case?
Bottom line: The instructor was right. To Err is Human. Live and learn.
I am learning to build in enough safety so this err remains marginal....

[Dragon88]

... I'd expect nothing less from the people on this forum.

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/8670/uniqueandspecialsnowfla.gif

[Magic_Salad0892]

I bet JSantoro wishes he could edit other people's posts in real life. :p

[GIJew766]

I bet JSantoro wishes he could edit other people's posts in real life. :p

Don't we all...


H

[tb-av]

If I'm not mistaken almost any unintended discharge, accidental or negligent, involves a finger on a trigger and a round chambered when there should not have been one.

Rem 700, safety on, chamber round and close bolt. Move safety to off position and rifle goes BANG. Finger no where near trigger.

[shootist~]

AD or ND makes no matter. Safe shooter or dumb-ass, if you shoot long enough you will have one.

+1 on muzzle control to the end.

[1911-A1]

Yes. And just as a cautionary tale, non-negligent mechanical failures happen too. A good friend had a 1911 disconnector break and the gun went auto on him, and it climbed above horizontal and killed one of his neighbors 300 yards away.

My friend just got out of jail. Amazing what a motivated-to-****-you prosecutor can do when they really want to. I am NOT going to go further into the particulars of the incident, but just know that not all escaped rounds are negligent. It's simply a risk you take when handling guns. As Jeff Cooper once said, "Anyone who is terrified of gun accidents can avoid having one by never touching a gun."

That's horrific. Having a pistol do an uncommanded mag dump is a nightmare.

I had a 2nd Gen (used) Glock 17 several years ago. I inserted a mag in preparation to carry it concealed, and it fired a round when I dropped the slide. It sent a Cor-Bon 9mm through my wall, and through my roommate's bedroom. He was not in it, thankfully.

I have NO idea exactly what happened to the gun that caused it to fire. My finger was well clear of the trigger the entire time I was handling it. I took it down to the gunsmith the next day, and he said it looked fine, but the striker channel was full of dirt and grease, so he thinks that may have had something to do with it.

I still take responsibility for it, since it was a used gun, and I just did a function test with it, instead of tearing it completely apart and inspecting every centimeter of it.

[jtsikes0204]

I say that if the gun goes off but you were following the 4 Rules, then it's an Accidental Discharge. If the gun goes off and you were violating the 4 Rules, it was a Negligent Discharge.

YMMV

what he said!