View Full Version : Body Armor: When to wear, when to leave it...?
First, let me open this thread by saying I am looking for educated and firsthand responses only. So if you've never "jocked up" for non-square range activities, like I haven't, please just read the responses of those who have...
I am intensely curious, due to some recent reading, if our finest elite soldiers routinely leave on missions without body armor?
Policemen seem to wear it as religiously as they wear their duty pistol, yet I often see, and read, of our elite warriors not wearing it at all.
I'd like to understand the reasonings why one would chose to leave it vs. wear it.
What I have noticed lately is many guys are wearing less or no body armor in hard cars. Reason: If the blast can blow through the side of a hardened vehicle, the kevlar and plates just make it harder for your buddies to carry your injured/dead body.
+ Wearing a tac vest is easily noticed and may put you in more danger. (at least where I am)
Do I keep it in the vehicle, yes, with no mag pouches or anything- everything is in my "go bag".
First, let me open this thread by saying I am looking for educated and firsthand responses only. So if you've never "jocked up" for non-square range activities, like I haven't, please just read the responses of those who have...
I am intensely curious, due to some recent reading, if our finest elite soldiers routinely leave on missions without body armor?
Policemen seem to wear it as religiously as they wear their duty pistol, yet I often see, and read, of our elite warriors not wearing it at all.
I'd like to understand the reasonings why one would chose to leave it vs. wear it.
Who are you referring to?
Failure2Stop
11-05-07, 13:45
Occasionally will leave armor for pure recon missions. Stand alone plates and carriers are occasionally used to provide protection without undue soft-armor weight, as well as a platform for minimal gear.
DA will always be in full (mission profile) kit, as contact is imminent.
Most snipers hate body armor, for many reasons, but especially the reduction in ability to stalk/conceal.
ETA-Many organizations have different rules/outlooks on the employment of armor.
Unfortunately, not all uniformed LEOs wear it, esp. in the more hot and humid environments.
It won't do any good if it's under a case of flares in the trunk of a crown vic.
I have a level III-a point blank that I wore for law enf. duties and driving armored truck and I must agree it was damn hot and uncomfortable during the summer months and somewhat heavy( 7 pounds). But I never stopped wearing it after one of our officers was shot and killed by a 16 yr. old punk kid. I must firmly say wear it all the time for civilian use but the military has some obvious reasons why they leave it behind. I guess it comes down to the enviroment your operating in.
I wear a RAV on some missions (mounted patrols, etc.), but more often than not I wear a regular Paraclete plate carrier with soft armor backing. Mobility kills a lot of people. It's scary to think of all the shit Uncle Sam requires soldiers to wear. They look like the kid off of "A Christmas Story" when he's all bundled up in his winter suit. I wear Paraclete Level IV plates in both rigs.
Unless I am on SR or something I always wear some kind of armor. I don't see anyone rolling without armor in populated areas.
I am still a big proponent of plates in my carrier especialy the ceramic type to up the level of protection. For some odd reason a silly rumor started in the mid 90's that a round could ricoche off the plate and go up in to your lower jaw. That rumor became so wide spread that within a few weeks nearly every housing officer and guard at AT systems I worked with had taken his plate out. Ever heard that one.
I am still a big proponent of plates in my carrier especialy the ceramic type to up the level of protection. For some odd reason a silly rumor started in the mid 90's that a round could ricoche off the plate and go up in to your lower jaw. That rumor became so wide spread that within a few weeks nearly every housing officer and guard at AT systems I worked with had taken his plate out. Ever heard that one.
I've heard it, but I thought it was from the hard steel rounded trauma plates that used (thinking early 1990's) to be in LE soft concealable armorer. Now all companies that i know of have soft trauma plates...
Jack
NCPatrolAR
11-06-07, 13:47
I've heard it, but I thought it was from the hard steel rounded trauma plates that used (thinking early 1990's) to be in LE soft concealable armorer. Now all companies that i know of have soft trauma plates...
Jack
I wear a hard plate with a soft pack on top of it. That way, if any spall does result from a hit to the steel, the soft pack should soak it up.
HolyRoller
11-06-07, 20:10
When I'm on duty as a reserve deputy sheriff (in NC reserves or auxiliaries are the same as the regular guys, same basic and in-service training, except we work when we want to, for free) I always ALWAYS wear a Paraclete IIIA covert vest with soft trauma plate. It's hot in summer and itchy all the time for some reason, but it beats getting shot or seriously killed. Not all of my colleagues are so enthusiastic about body armor, or seat belts for that matter. Either product only gets buckled on when they think they might need them. This even though (1) the only line of duty death in our dept's history probably would have been a minor injury if he'd been belted in and (2) the Florida trooper who didn't wear a vest last year because it's just too hot, and died by means of one .25 ACP center mass from somebody who didn't want to get a ticket that day. But seatbelts and vests are too uncomfortable. I only work here, I don't ask questions.
In the trunk of whoever's car I'm riding in goes not just my AR case but also my Level IV ceramic plates in a Tactical Assault Gear carrier. Well, aren't you supposed to have armor that stops whatever YOU carry? :D They weigh more than I want to know so they're not an everyday thing. I've only put the plates on once in earnest, for a search warrant, and a couple hours inside them made me glad I hit the gym now and then. I train with plates sometimes when shooting rifles in the backyard range. When I can afford it, I'll go with the lighter Eagle Industries carrier since I now know I don't need acres of PALS space, just a mag shingle or two.
I wear a IIIA vest with a IMPAC ST trauma plate and a soft plate. The IMPAC ST is a great piece of gear. Here's a link to the demo video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeowmnioCKQ
http://americanbodyarmor.com/products/images/IMPAC-ST.jpg
Thanks for the link S-1 very informative video. Now that I have seen that plate in action, I must have one. My wife will probaly curse you for making me spend some money. So many toys such little time.
I'm a cop and I wear mine every time I go to work, whether it be while on patrol or doing task force stuff under a raid t-shirt. I'm in the desert and it does get damn hot during the summer but I'd rather sweat like a pig than bleed like one.
"I wear a IIIA vest with a IMPAC ST trauma plate and a soft plate. The IMPAC ST is a great piece of gear."
Ditto. The only thing I don't like about the IMPAC plate is that when your vest rides up, the top of the plate hits you in the chin every time you look down (i.e. when you're trying to find the cheeto you just dropped on the floorboard).
When I was on duty the body armor was always on. It was also Dept policy. When in uniform you wear armor. In fact it was like, " gun, badge, armor, on duty don't be caught with two out of three". You could be reprimanded for not wearing it and would be sent to retreive it. I personally don't understand those who don't in a LE setting. Columbia, SC can be a pretty miserable place in July and August, especially in a black poly uniform, duty boots and unmpteen pounds of duty belt, radio, sidearm, and armor. But it's alot more comfortable than dead or shot. It was also policy to wear it anytime on the range, and after qualifying with some folks I saw why! I don't have any Mil experience so I can't comment on what they do or don't do., and why that might be.
-RD62
Unless I am on SR or something I always wear some kind of armor. I don't see anyone rolling without armor in populated areas.
Words to live by.
Shivan -- what I mentioned elsewhere...
Thanks for the link S-1 very informative video. Now that I have seen that plate in action, I must have one. My wife will probaly curse you for making me spend some money. So many toys such little time.
at least safety items are easier to justify. :)
Spurholder
11-16-07, 15:23
For OCONUS: I wear my IBA and ACH whenever going outside the wire.
The only time I wear IBA in CONUS is during live-fire training.
Same here.
decodeddiesel
11-16-07, 17:47
For OCONUS: I wear my IBA and ACH whenever going outside the wire.
The only time I wear IBA in CONUS is during live-fire training.
Same policy we had in my battalion in the 101st. Big problem we had though (during my last tour) is the high ranking slick sleeve morons logging their first tour would demand ALL of the IBA suppliments be worn, which literally KILLED any mobility and freedom of movement. It got to the point where I for one would rather not wear anything at all than a full IBA with EVERYTHING on it. Just the vest, + SAPIs, + ACH for me, thanks.
Failure2Stop
11-17-07, 05:30
Big problem we had though (during my last tour) is the high ranking slick sleeve morons logging their first tour would demand ALL of the IBA suppliments be worn, which literally KILLED any mobility and freedom of movement. It got to the point where I for one would rather not wear anything at all than a full IBA with EVERYTHING on it. Just the vest, + SAPIs, + ACH for me, thanks.
Seen this problem far too many times with regular Army and Marines. The guys look like the effing Michelin Man. It's sad.
Decisions from upper eschelon pussies that never actually put on all the shit they demand their men to wear or do the things they expect their men to do with it all on. Instead of linking survivability with the ability to fight they link it to hiding behind increased armor.
My head hurts now.
Apologies for the ranting hijack.
my thoughts, and of course others will differ - I am currently deployed to Iraq and will be here until probably mid 2009. AOR sees me running around BIAP, the IZ, and to several FOBS. I wear some type of armor whenever I move off my compound. If I'm out on an assault or conducting any kind of op, I have my CIRAS on. If I'm moving around BIAP I have on PT Armor concealable armor with a shirt as my covering garment But I am in the minority here at least where BIAP is concerned. Most folks at BIAP as far as I can tell have no armor on. Believe that's from an institutional belief that they are somehow in a safe zone. Considering the number of FN manned checkpoints, and as you start making your way towards Irish, a number of Iraqi controlled checkpoints, it boggles my mind that this seems to be the prevalent attitude. I've seen dudes running along roads here in tees and shorts - again, if they are comfortable then so be it, but makes no sense to me.
Everyone on my team wears their armor out on ops. Frankly I can't think of any reason why anyone in an active war zone would not wear armor out on an op. I'm usually moving in a level 7 vehicle and even then will have my armor on. The idea of trying to find my armor and don it while sitting in a disabled vehicle in the middle of an attack doesn't make much sense to me. The time spent getting it on is time that I'm not shooting back. I also don't buy the argument that an EFP or RPG makes wearing the armor moot. It's possible to survive an IED or RPG attack where the projectile doesn't somehow find you and go through you. Sure, an rpg coming through your vehicle and going straight through you won't be stopped by armor, but armor can and has stopped fragments from doing significant damage to guys and I've seen that several times.
Again, these are just my thoughts. My rig is pretty comfortable, and on my CIRAS I have what I consider to be only necessary items. For me that's m4 mags in pouches, mags for my glock, my med kit, illumination and my radio. That's about it. On some nights I might have a few other items, but the bulk of the weight is the armor and not all the crap on it. I can run and gun in that thing all day and the weight doesn't mean much. For guys who have half of California dangling off their armor, I can see why they wouldn't want to wear it all day. YMMV
decodeddiesel
12-17-07, 11:25
I totally agree 1SFG, anyone out on an OP without body armor on is a damn fool. At least you have the option of wearing different armor, which as you know for us poor regular SOBs is not an option.
If I am in uniform I have my vest on. If I am in soft clothes I MIGHT not wear it depending on the situation. Arizona can get pretty warm and I just hydrate and sweat. Better than bleedin.
white spaniard
12-18-07, 21:50
Is body armor like impac trauma plates are they available for civilians?
Is body armor like impac trauma plates are they available for civilians?
Yes. Some companies won't sell to citizens, but it is legal so long as you aren't a felon.
Having been shot at while a police officer in Metro Atlanta a few years back, I am a firm believer in it!!!
I also train in it, range time and all.
The only time its not on me is when deployed in a sniper/observer position.
This what we had to wear last summer. The vest is very nice without the SAPI (ceramic plates) in them but then we went to front and back around the middle to end of OIF 1 and then added the side sapi's as well. With all of that it was getting bad and its why alot of us wear a chest rig on top of it. I am a combat engineer and spend alot time doing cache and IED sweeps where we just walk and sweep for hours. With the chest rig you can dump alot of wieght and still maintain the protection. And yes I often felt like the Michilan man
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii126/sapper5353/DSC01026.jpg?t=1204355247
Bolt_Overide
03-01-08, 03:29
Anytime I could realisticly take fire, Im wearing atleast a plate carrier with plates. Usually soft armor too. Id rather be uncomfortable than dead.
I'll be interested to see how this all comes around when we are done in the desert and move on to a different arena where vehicles can't go.
I remember training in the French Alps in the mid 1990's in the USMC. We wore all the armor we had at the time, cold weather gear, NBC gear,rations, and ammo. We were dropped off by helo and the company could barely make a 1k movement in the mountains with a few inches of snow.
When I went through OCS, the commander at the time, Col. Wesley Fox, refused to have anyone wear body armor. I don't know if they do now or not. He was a CMA winner from Vietnam and believed that, at least in that war, that body armor killed more Marines then it saved.
We usually fight our last war and are caught behind the curve when something new comes up. If we happen to go somewhere next that has the climate/terrain similar to Vietnam, it will be very rough on the guys that go first and have to wear all the armor we are wearing over in Iraq.
As a cop I always were body armor on duty.
shivan,
I agree that not wearing body armor in Iraq is bad news. On the other hand it seems as if troops are so loaded down now that mobility is compromised. For a while I was wearing a level III point blank vest and then a chicken plate carrier with molle attachements.
Stateside when I was a reserve officer I always wore body armor, regardless of the weather. The risk is just too great w/o it. Nowadays even when I am going to a training class I wear body armor just in case someone leaves their thinking cap at home. I was doing some range drills back in summer of '06 and the guy behind me on the line flagged me at least twice during reaction drills. Needless to say I was getting pissed.
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