Wich AR15 manufacturer? (Europe)

[JackWorm]

Hello.

IPSC rifle is growing in my part of the world and if everything moves forward as planed it´s time to invest in a rifle soon.

I´m set on a AR15 and the questions I have for You is 1) wich manufacturer and 2) barrel length.

1. First question is the most important one because I want quality, if rules are chainged regarding bying "evil black rifles" I want to have the best of the best. The licens will take months to recive, every AR15 in Europe costs an arm and a leg and it´s alot of new not-so-well-known manufacturers out there. Money is not an object on this one, quality is.

I´m NOT interested in a spaced-out-racegun. I want a classic AR15 look with dustcover, forward assist etc + some Magpul pimp on it.

We have a very limited amount of good manufacturers right now:

JP rifles
Colt
H&K (MR223&MR308)
STI Competition rifle
Oberland arms (LMT internals)

I´m not very interested in H&K, I think they look fugly, are heavy and for the price (€2700) shoot bad .
Oberland Arms is a german manufacturer and the rumor is they use LMT internals.
Any word on the STI AR15, google turns up really short on this rifle.

Every rifle regardles of manufacturer is +€2000 wich moves me towards JP rifles, a JP AR15 (not the CTR-02) with "JP Full Mass Operating System" still looks and feels like an AR15 and have quality parts, right? I think the freefloat handguard is race-gun-ugly but I can swap it out.

If not a JP a vanilla Colt "Match" or "Accurized" with a trigger job is second choise.


2. I´ll be shooting IPSC matches (range 5 meters to 300 meters) and using it for recreational target plinking @ 300 meters. I´m thinking 18" should work well with both IPSC and paper-punching @ 300m.

How would a 16 inch "JP AR15 VTAC" with the light barrel contour and a bird cage flashsupressor shoot @ 300 meters compared to a medium profile 18"/20" barrel?

I hope I made sense :)

Thank You.

/JW

[Magic_Salad0892]

Colt. 16.1'' standard barrel.

6720, or 6940.

[JackWorm]

Colt. 16.1'' standard barrel.

6720, or 6940.

I´m not sure they are for sale here, I only seen the 20" target rifles.

/JW

[skullworks]

Most European manufacturers use Lothar Walther's barrels on their AR:s so they will shoot nice and tidy little groups. I'm personally leaning towards Oberland Black Label (http://www.oberlandarms.com/index.php?category=Waffen&id=OA15_BL&page=details) as it is a known commodity (for a European manufacturer) containing quality innards (LMT) priced at a "reasonable" €1380 - especially if you gonna start swapping parts right away - and at least one domestic dealer keeps them in stock (F&K Sport HB (http://www.dae.se)).

The JP:s are great competition guns but, with European pricing being what it is, are a bit too pricey for an entry-level rifle in my book (especially since you want the "classic" look). I too have tried to find info on the STI rifles, and what little I've found here and elsewhere doesn't give me that warm cuddly feeling I'm looking for. :bad:

16" barrels are IPSC legal here, so that shouldn't be a problem. Who is stocking Colts here (in Sweden)?

[montrala]

I´m NOT interested in a spaced-out-racegun. I want a classic AR15 look with dustcover, forward assist etc + some Magpul pimp on it.


Then get OA Black Label 16.5" (mid-length gas system). They seem to be well put together and work fine. Good platform to start customising to your needs. Only remember that muzzle device thread is M14x1 , so you can only use OA brakes/compensators.

You might also want to look at PAR Mk3 (http://proarms-armory.com/en/parmk3/) if you consider piston - lots of options here too chose from.

Buying JP or Colt or STI seem like too much for your requirements, but probably, sometime down the line you will want JP "space gun".

I'm fine with my HK, but you do not like them, so I will not talk you into it.

[JackWorm]

Thank You.

I havent shot the MR223 so I dont know how I´d like it, but initially I´m not very fond of the price and the looks of it. But never say never.

The ProArm, is it the Czech Republic H&K pistong MR223-look alike?

Guntrans used to import the Colts and I belive he still does, even though he isnt that active nowadays.

Whats You´re input on barrel lenght then, 16", 18", 20"?

/JW

[VLODPG]

I feel for you Europeans, after spending some time here(Poland)myself, I miss not being able to want into almost any shop & pluck down some $$$$ and walk out with a new carbine!

[skullworks]

Guntrans used to import the Colts and I belive he still does, even though he isnt that active nowadays.
Gunnar removed his website and the last page he had posted (http://www.gun-trans.se/Index.htm.html) stated that they were discontinuing all firearms transactions due to everything that happened with the robbery.


Whats You´re input on barrel lenght then, 16", 18", 20"?
Though I like the 16" for it's relative small size I am leaning towards getting the full 20" at this point. I may be cutting it down to 18" later (which will also allow me to thread it for something else than M14x1), but I'd rather get used to shooting the AR again first though.

Part of my reasoning against the 16" at this point is that the handguards are a little on the short side for me (ape arms). But I will probably end up getting a secondary upper in a different configuration down the road though - just for the hell of it - but at this point the 20" will do.

But, back to the 16"; I like that Oberland offer their's with a Mid Length gas system rather than carbine length as this provides me with longer handguards and sight radius than on a carbine length system. It also makes for a smoother shooting system (loads of info on that elsewhere) and, since spare bolts etc are not readily available here, it should be of interest to minimize the wear on the parts, which is achieved (in part) by going for a mid length gas system rather than carbine for 16".

That also brings me to a piece of advice that I give to all Swedes who are thinking about getting an AR: when you apply for your license, add an extra bolt to the application as well. It is easier to get an extra bolt approved up front than to apply for it once you actually need it - also, this way you will avoid the down-time as you're waiting for the application to be processed.

Obviously, my reasoning above is heavily influenced by the realities of being in Sweden and what hoops we have to jump through. Aside from this there's a wealth of knowledge and experience here regarding the pros and cons of different barrel lengths and gas systems.

[JackWorm]

I´ve shot 20" AR15´s and I´ve handled 16" tricked out JP´s.

I didnt in any way feel the 20" were to long when I shot them, though the 16" JP felt very short and naturally would be easier moving around with. 18" feels like a sweet-spot some how.

The OA Black Label 16 3/4" or 20" might be a good place to start. Is it hard/expensive to cut down the 20" to 18"?

Thanx.

/JW

[skullworks]

As long as the gunsmith has the proper tools for removing the barrel, ie an armorers wrench/tool and a way to hold the upper in a vice (be it via a receiver block or some other way) it is not at all difficult. The machining part can be done by anyone with a good lathe. As to pricing I do not know what this would run you over here (the lathe set-up is actually easier than on most other rifles).

[JackWorm]

I´m not sure if I agree OA Black Label is necessarily the best bang for the buck.

I like what I get with a Black Label. but the €1380 becomes 15900kr @ the store... And if You want to upgrade it (trigger etc) You are quickly moving toward 20000kr.

The JP-AR15 (not the CTR-02) starts at 23000kr (gprifle) and then You can specify alot right from the start.

I´m no AR15-authority but for me the JP name weigh more than the Oberland Arms. And €1380 was a nice price but 15900kr is a bit steep.

Not being a fanboy, just thinking out loud.

/JP

[turdbocharged]

Hard to beat Colt quality if you can find it. Especially in comparison with your other choices. I only have experience with the LE models (6920/40) though.

[skullworks]

I´m not sure if I agree OA Black Label is necessarily the best bang for the buck.

I like what I get with a Black Label. but the €1380 becomes 15900kr @ the store... And if You want to upgrade it (trigger etc) You are quickly moving toward 20000kr.

The JP-AR15 (not the CTR-02) starts at 23000kr (gprifle) and then You can specify alot right from the start.

I´m no AR15-authority but for me the JP name weigh more than the Oberland Arms. And €1380 was a nice price but 15900kr is a bit steep.

Not being a fanboy, just thinking out loud.

/JP
Of course, and I'm not an Oberland fanboy either - I was just giving you my thoughts on the subject based on your original premise that you wanted a rifle that looked as "original" as possible (ie not an "spaced-out-racegun"); which the JP-15 most definitely does not.

Regarding the price; 15900 kr is the €1380 plus MOMS (Swedish sales tax: 25%). If you have your own company and you can do the tax write-off you'll get pretty much the same price here too.

Do note that unless Gustav has a JP-15 in the exact configuration you want, you may not get it at the price listed (since some upgrades come with a price tag - just check JP's Order Form (http://www.jprifles.com/document_pdfs/JP15%20Order%20Form_275.pdf)) or you will have to wait until he gets one delivered.

That said; the JP-15 is a very good competition rifle and I think Gustav has an attitude towards his business that is often lacking with others (just the fact that he ordered 30+ rifles with his first order when most dealers here will settle for the bare minimum).

However, if you truly want a "service rifle" then go with Magic_Salad and turdbocharged's advice and get a Colt (which I suspect may be the same price as the JP once it get's here).

[JackWorm]

I´m not saying nothing on my gun may be race-looking :)

That said the plain vanilla JP-15 is a standard AR15 lower/upper, only thing race-looking on it is the handguards and after seing them in real life I dont like the looks but they felt very nice. And if whatnot I can just sell them ;)

The CTR-02 and the side carging uppers I dont like, though they no doubt are good guns and will shoot great. Not just for me.

Colt will work, if anyone sells them.

/JW

[skullworks]

So then you need to get a new barrel nut, a delta-assembly, a front sight assembly/gas block, and a handguard cap. Hopefully the barrel profile will work with these parts, not being mil spec and all... Also, hopefully the gas block is longer than the standard front sight/gas block, so there will be no issues with not enough clearance for the handguard cap.

;)

[JackWorm]

So then you need to get a new barrel nut, a delta-assembly, a front sight assembly/gas block, and a handguard cap. Hopefully the barrel profile will work with these parts, not being mil spec and all... Also, hopefully the gas block is longer than the standard front sight/gas block, so there will be no issues with not enough clearance for the handguard cap.

;)

Ok, I get it :)